Just in case I have lived my life to date unaware of some "womens rights" I actually thought I had but do not have, could Mr McLennan please detail those "women's rights"(plural, Mr.McLennan) for which Father Kennedy is credited with fighting so ardently? I was educated by some fine, wise and progressive Catholic Presentation Sisters to believe in my own sex...the sky was the limit to what a woman could do in the world. We were taught we could rule it! So please relieve my ignorance Mr McLennan... what rights for us women did Fr.Kennedy have to devote his time fighting...precious time that could otherwise have been devoted to fighting for human rights for far more vulnerable fellow human beings

Jim Toohey claims to have identified five 'complete misunderstandings' in Gary MacLennan’s OLO article “Faith of our fathers...” (February 20, 2009).

1. The Buddha statue.
Toohey's correction:
Archbishop Bathersby is also an ardent supporter of ecumenism but there's no official requirement to incorporate non-Christian religious symbols into the Catholic Church as a demonstration of ecumenism. 'No requirement' is not the same as proscription.

2. The authoritarian nature of the Archbishop's decisions.
Toohey's correction:
Denial. Anyway the ungrateful priest and his flock brought it all on themselves. Moreover, the Archbishop feels grief and sorrow too.

3. Jesus as outsider and revolutionary and the search for the Kingdom of God on earth
Toohey's correction: Agrees with the 'outsider' tag, half accepts the 'revolutionary' tag (while denying Jesus was anti-establishment) and accuses Fr Kennedy of heresy. Moreover, Toohey knows of "no Catholic or other Christian who believes it is possible to create the Kingdom of God on earth". Where does Toohey spend his days? Anyway, he says, that's an atheistic, unChristian idea that suits Father Kennedy's 'political agenda' - an unspecified smear.

4. The far right at work.
Toohey's correction:
Suggests a weird conspiracy then extend it to insinuate the Archbishop's opponents are implying he is a neo-Nazi. Toohey then characterises the Archbishop's views as 'orthodox, uncontroversial and widespread among Catholics of all political persuasions'. Widespread but not universal. Then follows a personal attack on the priest's courage.

5. Kennedy's championship of a range of good causes
Toohey's correction:
The Church champions these too and more - he even claims that it champions the rights of gay and women. Seriously without blushing.

With friends like Toohey, it's no wonder the Church is in a bad way.

" The rights of women"... What rights would they be Spikey? Seriously without blushing.....

I am not religious .
If Father was to purchase a disused Church and crank out his version of Catholicism would all his parishioners follow him ?

Did Mary , Jesus or any of the apostles set requirements of Legal(?) Practice .

In the first Church(?) did the faithfull have any input or executive to maybe control Priests .

"With friends like Toohey, it's no wonder the Church is in a bad way.
Posted by Spikey,"

What?.
The Church is in a bad way?.
Good,I am delighted.

Jim,

Are you Bathersby's mate?

I can't recall reading such a biased view for a long time... it does explain why the Catholic Church Heirachy is so out of touch with its people.

The whole Bathersby style has been of one with a huge ego. When will he put on a pair of jeans and t shirt and come and sit with the people at S. Brisbane and find out what Christ is really about? If he really represents the rest of the heirachy then it seems the church will continue to become increasingly irrelevant to most Australians.

In case anyone is interested, the Budda was in fact a Monk praying... which is one of the evil things that Bathersby has accused Kennedy of having in the church... god forbid! In his trial by letter, the Archbishop in his wisdom has shown his true nature...authoritarian, uncaring, uninterested in truth, inflexible and more about form than meaning....

Jim, say g'day to the Arch when you see him and ask him when he's going to retire to make way for someone more enlightened to lead the Brisbane Catholic community. I will keep fingers crossed.

Denny perhaps you could let us all know what did the Nuns teach you about women’s right to be leaders in the church. The sky may be the limit in the secular world but nunning is the limit in Church. The chap in question would like to change that.

What the right wing of the church doesn't seem to get is the rest of us see a church where dogma is far more important than community. At a time when your letting Nazi’s back into the church ( you can't call Godwin it's true) your kicking out someone who is showing love and compassion for his fellow man.

What I'd really like to know is does
Father Kennedy teach (or practice)
anything that goes against the teachings
of Christ? And if so, what exactly?

Or is it only the fear and prejudice of
the Church's hierarchy (frightened men)
that he's threatening?

A priest that attracts over 800 into his
Church must be doing something right - surely?

The Dunamis Christian Centre (sorry if I got its name wrong - I haven't lived in the area for a while), also on Brisbane's Southside, also attracts huge numbers. Huge enough that I have seen parking directors controlling the parking lots to fit the enormous crowds in.

The Dunamis Christian Centre is also not Catholic. Catholicism is probably quite out of touch with many Australians. It works for me, but I am only one person. What Dunamis does, and what Kennedy does, works for an enormous number of people. Good on them. But what they do isn't Catholic. What they teach isn't Catholic and what they believe isn't Catholic. For that reason, perhaps they need to follow in the footsteps of the other Protestant faiths and step outside the Church. If the broader community values what they do, then funding isn't a problem - and, at present, the only benefits St Mary's is getting from the Catholic Church is funding and a building to meet in. Perhaps it is time to part ways - then Kennedy can run his own religion as he sees fit, free of the constraints of Catholic doctrine.

toohey oughta look up the definition of "authoritarian".

I think Foxy asks a very pertinent question - Is the good father teaching anything away from Christ's teachings?

If one was to take the Bible literally the answer is Yes. If one was to apply unbigoted intellect to the Bible the answer is NO!

In 1 Timothy 11-12 Paul, not Jesus - tells women to be quiet and doesn't allow them to teach! A single man inflicting his will over an entire gender! Amazing!

Jesus wouldn't have said that about women!

But many of our churches still believe it with gay abandon - No women teachers/priests!

But the Bible does create some problems for Father Kennedy when it is deciphered poorly.

Churches have always had problems with homosexuality when it suited them. Does it suit them if what this article alleges is true? I don't recall Mr Twoomey addressing this issue whatsoever.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,25083343-3102,00.html

Do Churches ever run to their victims first like Jesus would have done? Do they run to their lawyers first before beginning the great coverup? Would Jesus do that?

Is the 11th commandment "Thou shalt coverup quickly"? Ha!

I have trouble when the Churches start lecturing on morality, the bible and church laws. Is leading by example one of their strengths?

But back to poor Father Kennedy - and his alleged fight with the might of the Catholic church.

Please see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2572 for reference and then apply it to

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

See what the Catholic online Bible says http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=3

How does a man have intercourse with a man "the same way as he does a woman"? Catholics please explain? Also who will do the killing?

Is it true the good father blesses gay partnerships? OMG he blesses a loving relationship - how unChristian! Excommunicate LOVE!

Paul gets ruffled in Romans 1:26-27 but Paul oppresses women (see above) so I don't listen to him much!

Pathetic political squabbles. Arguing over the Bible is little more than arguing over tea leaves or the shapes of clouds.
Nazis have used it, so did the crusades, so did Bush and Howard. In the US they say "Jesus Hates Fags" and use it to justify mass murder. for decades it has been used to justify almost any sin ('cause forgiveness is just a donation away!)
It can be used to justify great Good (which comes from our hearts anyway) and the biggest evil (which it labels on it's enemies).
Lets all agree that bigoted ignorance is Bad Thing and anyone who claims to have Gods word is to be treated with utmost suspicion.
You cannot make up the Truth and just declare it to everyone: Not now, nor 2000 years ago.
Science works. Transparent societies work. Religion is a failed ideology.
Like most flat-earth culture it will hang around...but please can we stop giving it any authority? I'd rather my cat made important decisions for me than a religious minded person.

Can someone offer this mob another building please!

Denny asks: " The rights of women"... What rights would they be Spikey?

Perhaps you ought to ask Jim Toohey who made the rather startling claim in his article that: "The Catholic Church and Catholic parishes throughout Brisbane constantly (though not perfectly) demonstrate a commitment to the rights of the poor, downtrodden and disadvantaged in the tradition of Christ. This includes the rights of indigenous people, homosexuals, women..."

As for myself, I would have thought the rights of women were the same as the rights of men. Do you have a problem with that?

The 'Brisbane Catholic Community'? What's that?

On other threads I have been discussing issues to do with religions and the churches and this article contains some very big problems for the Catholic church.

Please believe me when I say I am not anti-Catholic whatsoever. I disagree with the teachings of all religions that I have studied.

Most Catholics, most Christians, most people, try to do the best they can, but often the churches fail the test. In this case it is the Catholic Church. Was it all that long ago that we lost a Governor General allegedly over his performance when dealing with an alleged crime committed by a clergyman? All churches have their skeletons.

If you are up to it please read this thread as it lays out what I am arguing!

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2572

Please don't be offended it is a journey of thinking and God gave us a thinking and questioning mind.

The question now should be asked if Christianity is to be believed. What decision would Jesus or God want Church leaders to take?

If you are a follower of Jesus - John 15:12 "My commandment is this: LOVE one another as I have loved you". It is a commandment!

John 3:16 - "whosever believeth" doesn't discriminate whatsoever - It doesn't say "whosever, excepting gays and other non confirmed Catholics or Christians"!

A point on Church teaching and rules, if what this article alleges is true,
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,25083343-3102,00.html,

are Church rules very flexible and hypocritical?

Did Jesus call Pharisees hypocritics? How do Church leaders sleep nights when they haven't reported an alleged or suspected crime"?

I am not a homosexual or a Christian but it seems that where there is conflict in doctrine and bible explanations - people should resort to
John 15:12 and "love one another" - Always err on the side of love!

To better serve their constituents all Religions and Churches should adopt 2 simple policies.

1. Love everyone equally

2. Report past, present and future alleged or even suspected crimes to the Police in every case!

With this suddenly the Churches become relevant again to those who choose to believe!

Dear Spikey,

Great name...love it ...conjures up a spunky image if you don't mind me saying so!! But onto more serious matters....your question "As for myself, I would have thought the rights of women were the same as the rights of men. Do you have a problem with that?" No I do not have a problem with that Spikey..what I don't like is women having MORE rights than men! For example a man does not have a right to kill...very rightly. But women do Spikey. 100,000 women a year in Australia exercise their right to have their babies killed. 100,000 men a year DO NOT have a right to kill their wives...or anyone for that matter. Just how big was Father Kennedy on this, the first human right ..the right to life Spikey? I would not want to misjudge Father Kennedy... Australia is a big country and from this distance I just may not have heard his anguished cries to heaven at the injustice of this innocent bloodshed...and distortion of women's rights. Women's rights Spikey! NO ONE should kill...you just DON'T KILL PEOPLE Spikey!
I suppose the moral of the story is that when speaking of "women's rights" these days, one needs to be very specific since
"women's rights" has come to be synonymous with the right to abort unborn children and women like me are apt to be very cynical of the term "women's rights". Back in the days of suffragettes like Susan B Anthony and Caddie Stanton, 'women's rights' really were about the same rights as men ...these early feminists abhorred abortion...but these days 'women's rights' include the 'right to kill' ...something men thankfully do not have!

Denny

Denny

Women's Rights include the right to control our own fertility.

Are you saying you approve of the action taken by the Catholic Church by excommunicating a rape victim's mother and doctors who arranged an abortion for the nine year old girl after repeated rapes by her stepfather?

Catholics have a strange interpretation of Jesus' compassion.

"A Brazilian archbishop says all those who helped a child rape victim secure an abortion are to be excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

The girl, aged nine, who lives in the north-eastern state of Pernambuco, became pregnant with twins.

It is alleged that she had been sexually assaulted over a number of years by her stepfather.

The excommunication applies to the child's mother and the doctors involved in the procedure.

The pregnancy was terminated on Wednesday.

Abortion is only permitted in Brazil in cases of rape and where the mother's life is at risk and doctors say the girl's case met both these conditions."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

Catholic belief? Beyond belief.

Fractelle....beyond belief alright! They executed the totally innocent twin babies! Not the guilty rapist! Nowhere have you mentioned the guilty stepfather being deserving of even a slap on the wrist let alone execution! Or the 100,000 babies killed in Australia annually who are NOT conceived as a result of rape...our gaols would be overflowing if they were! Catholics do not have a strange interpretation of Jesus' compassion at all Fractelle. Jesus said very clearly: 'Suffer the little children to come unto Me'..not 'rip them out of their mothers' wombs'!

Of course this case in Brazil is a terrible tragedy Fractelle....on top of the years of dastardly systemic abuse of an innocent child. But the Catholic Church is actually consistent in opposing abortion in rape cases because the child conceived in rape is no less human than the child conceived in love. It goes without saying that a woman pregnant as a result of rape deserves the greatest compassion. But such a woman is more likely to get this Fractelle from a loving, supportive family, community and church than from an abortionist..there is ample evidence..anecdotal as well as proof of this. Have you ever heard of the much loved American Negro singer Ethel Waters Fractelle? Her mother was raped at the same age as the Brazilian girl. In her beautiful autobiography 'His eye is on the sparrow' she had this to say: ' My mother was raped in a ditch and today they are naming a park after me!"
Apparently she and her mother had a wonderful relationship all their lives.

That said....hard cases make bad law...and rape has always been used as the "red herring" in arguments to justify the widespread practice of abortion as have semantics such as "Women's Rights include the right to control our own fertility.' Their FERTILITY Fractelle, not their babies' BODIES!

The Brazilian bishop has taken a stand...unpopular and misinterpreted as it may be. He might have selected an easier case...but then those twins were as deserving of their lives as you and I are of ours Fractelle.

Denny

denny, abortion is a tough issue, but "unborn children" is a contradiction in terms. if you're gonna serve up mountains of your tedious moral outrage, at least try to avoid the sleazy word games.

Wow Denny, Do you have a misguided view of your religion and it's moral stands?

You quote Matthew 19:14 Did the children who went to God's alleged churches suffer? http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/nletter/bccrime.html

Where is your moral outrage on this? Is failing to leave an organisation that does such a thing giving tacit approval?

Have churches and Christians forfeited the right to comment on moral issues?

http://www.theage.com.au/national/outrage-over-bishops-abuse-remarks-20080716-3gcr.html?page=2

Have a read and let your heart weep! http://brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/

Where was your God? Where was your Church? Is that Cardinal Pell walking to the court with the accused? Did he visit the victims?

Have you read the histories of the rapes & beatings that occurred in orphanages run by alleged Christians and alleged Christian organisations?

Where is your moral outrage?

Have you and your husband sinned by using a condom? http://www.religiousconsultation.org/News_Tracker/condom_ban_divides_Catholic_clergy.htm

Would Jesus hold true your churches stance on condoms? Hmmm Nope!

How can a Christian organisation tell it's community not to use a condom when AIDS is raging through Africa? Where is your moral outrage?

If God giveth and God taketh away then HIV & AIDS is certainly lessening his workload!

Now back to your alleged 100,000 LEGAL terminations in this country.

Notice I don't use the emotive "abortion" word! It is ugly!

Should we re-open Church run orphanages? Can you trust your people Denny?

How many children will you adopt? We need a number for our calculations.

Denny - Has God made your heart hard in relation to this 9 year old girl?

If you insist that rape victims must have their babies then I am sorry for you. May your God forgive you!

In Deuteronomy 22:28 it states that the rapist (as long as he has 20 pieces of silver) must marry the victim. Do you believe this rubbish also?

You have plenty to think about and did you exaggerate the termination rate to 100,000

Dear Bushbasher,

I commend you for your thoughtful "abortion is a tough issue." At least you do not dismiss it as the grave issue that it is. And I would have done better to have used the term 'preborn children'than 'unborn children' which you describe as a 'contradiction in terms'. You are right..there is nothing 'un' about a child in the womb. I have just checked my Collins English Dictionary where the word "child" is said to include "an unborn baby" and the expression "with child" to refer to "pregnant". No "sleazy word games" in the Collins English dictionary Bushbasher! Or the daily newspapers which so frequently report stories related to women carrying "unborn children". Just start taking note of this frequent word usage Bushbasher.

Opinionated2 clearly despises the Catholic Church...as is his/her right and privilege. But the presence of paedophiles in the Catholic Church is not an excuse for the rest of the world to go on a rampage of killing preborn children! Yes, people should practice what they preach. Paedophiles are hardly in a position to preach against abortion. But not every Catholic is a paedophile...just as not every teacher, not every member of the Liberal/Labor Party etc etc which oppose paedoplilia is a paedophile ...though some of the members of the Liberal/Labor Party and Education Department may have been found guilty of paedophilia. These institutions... and any other in the same position...are justified in speaking out against these crimes...though some of their members may have committed these very crimes!

But to get back to Father Kennedy and his Catholicism. I would be very surprised if he did not support what I have said...even if he hasn't made much of a fuss about the 80,000 -100,000 abortions in Australia annually. Ask him! And the Federal Health Department will verify that figure Opinionated 2
Denny.

Oh Denny - I DO NOT hate the Catholic Church or Catholics your comment is an unChristian judgement of me! You as a Christian aren't entitled to make judgements(Matthew 7:1-5).

I forgive you and turn the other cheek! (Matthew 5:39). But will your God?

John 8:7 "...he who has not sinned cast the first stone..." Are you throwing stones Denny?

I note with interest that you didn't address the condom's are a sin question, why?

Is your Church and Pope on a slippery slope on this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4081276.stm

And what are other Catholics saying?

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/catholic.petition.urges.pope.to.lift.ban.on.condoms.in.aids.battle/8566.htm.

Hold the phone ...surely a quick prayer upstairs to a compassionate and caring God... and he has his answer. If he forms a committee... will God get a seat? What's to consider?

I also notice you didn't address - Deuteronomy 22:28 it states that the rapist (as long as he has 50 pieces of silver) must marry the victim.

What are you scared of Denny? Does that Bible of yours create problems for fundamentalists?

Denny, Were you, as a Christian, prepared for this 9 year old girl, (the victim of rape and incest), to die or to be rendered infertile to save the twins?

How does an adult, let alone a child, deal with emotional trauma of this? Words are cheap Denny!

Now to add insult to injury the Vatican defends the excommunication of the Mother & Drs of the rape victim http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/07/vatican-defends-excommuni_n_172810.html

How can a Church do this?

I also didn't see your howl of moral outrage over this article!

Should excommunication occur here also http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,25083343-3102,00.html

Is your church tough on innocents and soft on the guilty? Is more moral outrage required?

That was a quick revision of statistics Denny. Are Christians allowed to tell fibs? I can see your confessional visit this week being a long one.

Make sure you take a cut lunch!

Termination of a pregnancy is a very intense and sensitive subject Denny, if you can't address the above similar issues can you really address this one?

Where are your solutions Denny? Can you trust your people?

a fetus is not a child. saying it doesn't make it so. cherry-picking your favourite dictionary doesn't make it so.

you can honestly debate the moral questions regarding a fetus. but you cannot do this if you lie about what a fetus is.

Denny

This will be my final post on this thread.

I find your faux moral outrage repugnant, that you care more about a foetus than you do about the wellbeing of a nine year old girl or any living breathing female is indicative of an inability to see all sides of vexing issues.

Therefore, you hold an equally dogmatic position on Father Kennedy and the essence of what he was trying to with with his church - which was exactly as Jesus was reported to have done - open, inclusive and compassionate.

I leave you to your dogma.

Dear Fractelle,

Come on now...you are quite over the top about this Father Kennedy's
Church! There would not be a Christian or Catholic Church in Australia that is not what you claim Father Kennedy's Church to be ..."open,inclusive and compassionate" You don't have to sit around in jeans to prove you're a follower of Christ as some seem to suggest on the OLO piece! Yes, Jesus not only kept company with sinners...He loved them! Loved them enough to ask them ..for their own good...to 'sin no more' There's the rub with "inclusivists" today..anything goes and they do not like to be reminded that there is such a thing as sin and the Church is obliged to speak out against it..as did Christ. We all need to be reminded of our propensity to sin...myself included...as well as God's infinite forgiveness.

Denny

Denny, there are many people in the world who don’t believe in a god, and I’m one of them. The outpouring of guilt and shame heaped upon anyone who has had an abortion is criminal. How can you possibly know the circumstances of every woman who has either contemplated or actually had an abortion?

The evolutionary reality that all species sprang from the same ancient sea makes it obvious (to me) that all the rules and regulations in society today regarding human bodies are man made. The idea that you are killing a human baby when you terminate fertilized eggs is an irrational man made learned response.

The termination of fertilized eggs happens in every species. Females from all species will spontaneously abort if the conditions to carry and rear their young are not right. In the case of humans, abortion has been happening right throughout our history, when and if the woman decides that the conditions are not right, mostly secretly because of all the man made rules of control. Why do some people think that human eggs are different and special compared to other species eggs? Why do we eat other species eggs without a second thought?

All females of all species are born with many more eggs than can be fertilised and carried to term by one body in one lifetime. All males of all species are born with the ability to produce many millions of sperm that cannot come to fruition in one lifetime no matter how many females he may attempt to impregnate. What could be the reason for that?

(continued)

Seems to me if you put each human egg and sperm on a pedestal and give them special status, you are deluding yourself into believing that every egg and every sperm, from the moment they meet and greet each other inside the woman’s body is a fully fledged human, which they cannot possibly be. They are not yet a living breathing human no matter which way you look at it, and thousands more eggs lie waiting unfertilized in the adult female for future months and future sperm coming their way.

An egg arrives in the womb every single month of a female’s life from the beginning of menstruation up until menopause – roughly 30 - 40 years. Why is there this over abundance of eggs? To personify them before they are capable of living is delusional in my opinion. To take the decision to continue with a pregnancy or not away from the woman is cruel and unusual punishment.

Emotional responses to this issue have their origins in guilt and punishment...and I think we are all aware of where that came from.

Can the female of our species please have her body back; she’d like to decide for herself what is best for it?

>>There would not be a Christian or Catholic Church in Australia that is not
>> what you claim Father Kennedy's Church to be ..."open,inclusive and compassionate"

sure. as long as you follow a set of intrusive, arbitrary rules. remind me, denny, why exactly is homosexuality a sin? see if you can answer with reason, rather than appealing to long-dead authority.

Dear Bushbasher,
My understanding of why homosexuality is a sin is
1. It does not produce life.
2. It is an unnatural act.
3. Some homosexuals are that way as a result of RAPE by an ADULT male.
4. God loves the person BUT hates the sin because people with potential fall short of their destiny because of SIN.
5. Unbelief does not change sin and its effects , you only kid yourself.

Richie 10

I guess most of what you said also applies to using contraceptives.

It is also a sin to consider any misdeed.

I also notice that the catholic countries in Europe have the fastest declining populations, so I guess as long as you confess you are OK.

richie 10, thanks for at least giving it a go. by comparison, dennie doesn't seem to have the courage of his/her bigotry.

to pick apart your answer:

>> My understanding of why homosexuality is a sin is

>>1. It does not produce life.

neither does playing backgammon.

more to the point neither does sex with a condom, nor oral sex, nor sex deliberately timed to coincide with the woman not ovulating. are any or all of these sins?

>> 2. It is an unnatural act.

what does this mean? how is it less natural than playing backgammon?

seriously, homosexuals seem to find homosexuality to be extremely natural. how else should one judge what is natural?

>> 3. Some homosexuals are that way as a result of RAPE by an ADULT male.

a) i don't believe you. you'll have to provide evidence.

b) even if what you say is true, so what? obviously the rape is sinful, but how does that have any bearing on judging later homosexual acts by the person who was raped?

>> 4. God loves the person BUT hates the sin because people with potential fall short of their destiny because of SIN.

irrelevant. why mention this, whatever its importance elsewhere?

it may say how a church treats the "sinner", but it does not say *why* the person has supposedly sinned.

5. Unbelief does not change sin and its effects , you only kid yourself.

again irrelevant. again, it gives no *why*.

richie 10, do you accept that you have given no argument for *why* homosexuality is a sin? do you want to give it another go?

Dear Bushbasher,
As to the rape it sure happened but over 30 years ago so I think it would be a bit hard to provide evidence now.
Every person has a concience . If you chose to ignore yours and believe Bs that is your choice for your heart knows the truth of right from wrong.

Denny,

(Yes, Jesus not only kept company with sinners...He loved them! Loved them enough to ask them ..for their own good...to 'sin no more')

Have you complied with the "sin no more" request Denny? FAIL!

As a card carrying, bible toting, Christian & Catholic aren't you failing the test you apply to others? "You cannot Judge others" (Matthew 7:1-5) "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" (John 8:7) FAIL!

Why try to explain the Bible to us Denny - Are you qualified? Doesn't look like it to me! FAIL!

Is your church doing what you say Denny? Forget the "inclusionists' have a good look at the organisations you belong to. How many logs do they have in their eyes? Matthew 7:1-5 FAIL!

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,25083343-3102,00.html

How can you ignore such things, and then ask to be taken seriously? Are you selectively critical Denny? FAIL!

Why do you insult Jesus by saying the Church is obliged to speak out as Jesus did? Where they are guilty, don't they cover it all up? FAIL! Revisit the links I showed you Denny!

Aren't you Christians amazingly hypocritical? FAIL!

Don't you sit silently by shaking your heads as crime after crime is covered up in your religious organisations and then speak out against homosexuality, pregnancy termination and condom useage? FAIL!

Where is the morality in that? Jesus had a bit to say on hypocrisy!

As this thread is called Catholic Belief I posted relevant articles regarding the Catholic Church... your answer - OP2 hates Catholics - Wrong - Sin - Do not bear false witness (Exodus 20:16)! FAIL!

Being a Christian isn't easy Denny, because when you sign up you actually are expected to do as Jesus told you to do!

Finally, John 14:6 Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life, no-one comes to the father BUT BY ME"! What does this say regarding the confessional?

Do you run the risk of Jesus saying to you - I left explicit instructions - your sins weren't forgiven, because you asked forgiveness, through a man, NOT BY ME?

Well done Bushbred!

Opinionated2,

Please note that priests in confession do not have the authorisation to forgive sin. They are merely there to give guidance for the sinner to bring himself or herself back into a state of grace. The Catholic rite of confession does not involve forgiveness by man, but by God. The idea is that, should you enter the confessional with the right attitude and the right contrition, you can receive guidance. Only God can forgive you and He will only do so if you are genuinely repentant. Obviously, nobody but you (and, if you believe such things, God) will know if you are genuinely sorry, so only you and God will know if you are forgiven and restored to a proper state.

Just clearing up because there seem to be a lot of people who have the wrong idea about confession. A lot of Catholics have the wrong idea, after all!

dear Otokonoko,
Repenance restores your relationdhip. It is imposible to restore any relationship without desision then action, Imposible without faith. 1st believe then action equals faith.Jesus is the high priest of our confession. 1st you must believe who he says he is then act upon that confession for if you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord then you are saved for it is impossible to say Jesus is Lord and believe it unless the Holy Spirit is drawing
you. Sin is anything that separates us from Gods love and grace which we can never earn. Jesus paid the price on the cross and all we have to do to recieve our pardon is believe. MUCH to childish for sifisticated and arrogent men. I have no knowledge of the Catholic Faith but I know Jeaus through His word and the Bible with relationdhip.
I talk with him every day [pray] not in a structured way but as father and son. I love my children and that is how I know God loves me for it confirms the bible.

Otokonoko,

I understand that is what people say about the confessional - but it begs the question then why have it?

It maybe following Jesus' statement in Matthew 18:19 For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."

Maybe the Church sought to guarantee the presence of Jesus for their members.

The Lords Prayer Matthew 6:12 "Forgive us our trespasses and forgive those who trespass against us" also has great relevance as Jesus pronounces a direct link to the alleged God for forgiveness.

Does the priest really get Catholics to say "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" and where does this come from?

The Catholic encyclopaedia doesn't seem to agree with you though http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01061a.htm

It states that the priest has the power to give absolution. Is absolution the "forgiving of sin?"

Mark 2:10 states "the son of man has the power to forgive a sin" but it doesn't give man this power?

This goes to the core problem I have with religions commenting on moral issues and other issues.

1. Have they removed the logs from their own eyes before removing the specks? Matthew 7:3-5

2. Even though Jesus was specifically silent on homosexuality Christians and Religions use it as a form of judgement Matthew 7. Is this a diversionary tactic away from the crimes that have been committed within their structures? Is that a Christian tactic?

3. Is the confessional Christian?

4. Just because tradition and formality presents these things to us should Christians focus more on questioning man's systems? The Bible is the guidebook!

As the alleged God knows all things before, present and in the future he knew we would fail the test of original sin. Isn't it obvious he wanted us to have an inquiring mind?

Is the test for Christians, using such a mind, to not follow blindly (Matthew 15:12-14)the rules and ceremonies of man, but, instead to think it through, and relate how it applies to his alleged words from the Bible?

The Bible is quite instructive on these matters!

Here we go. Hopefully, Opinionated2, this will help you understand where I'm coming from. If it doesn't, I'm sorry!

First, a disclaimer: what follows is my understanding of matters relating to confession and absolution. It could be wrong.

Catholics acknowledge that only God can forgive sin. Only God and the sinner can really understand the depth of the sinner's contrition; a priest only makes an educated guess. In the case of confession, the priest is merely a middleman. He listens to the confession, gives advice and gauges the extent of repentance. Obviously, some people are good liars - they may fake contrition to fool the priest; some also "invent" sins so they have something to confess. Priests, like any other human beings, can make mistakes. They may grant absolution in these situations, which means that in the eyes of the Church the sinner is absolved. What the priest says, however, is not necessarily what God says. How can He forgive a sin that never happened? How can He forgive when the sinner is not sorry?

Essentially, then, the absolution granted by the priest is no guarantee of forgiveness. It is conditional. The undertone is that "if you are truly sorry, then you are forgiven; I (the priest) believe that you are truly sorry". A further undertone is that "if you come back next week and confess to a repeat of this sin, then you are probably not truly sorry". The Church relies on honesty in this regard - no doubt thousands of people receive communion each week when they are not in a state of grace, though the Church assumes that they are. Far from judging the sinner, the priest gives him the benefit of the doubt.

Does this render confession irrelevant? Some may argue that it is pointless, but I think it is a valuable service to those who use it properly. If nothing else, it gives Catholics an opportunity to think about their sins and acknowledge wrongdoing, so that they can be better people in the future. It can be abused, but it can also be used effectively.

>> Does the priest really get Catholics to say "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" and where does this come from?

george pell's latest piece of whingeing nonsense made me cry "holy christ!". does that count?

TY Otokonoko. I appreciate your frank, honest reply on difficult issues.

I feel sorry for Catholics. Catholics are believers in a faith that should, bring out the best in all of it's followers.

If the clergy handled ugly issues in a Jesus-like manner, the ordinary Catholic would be less burdened.

Do Catholics receive the flack whilst other religious groups, that have taken similar wrong decisions, get to blend in with the crowd and are spared much of the criticism?

Do ALL religions have skeletons, and, if so aren't they letting down their alleged God?

I can find nowhere where Jesus suggested the confessional.

Is it a bad thing? Probably not, for the average Catholic, if used the way you suggest, but from a societal perspective I do consider it misguided.

If a person who has committed a crime can find, a pretend absolution, then it is against the rule of law. Could the confessional, with priests confessing to priests, instead of involving the police, be one of the reasons that in your religion at least their is a great reluctance to report very serious crimes?

Could it be that the Church puts itself above the law?

Could the confessional have protected far too many criminal acts from ever being referred to the police?

If this is the case then isn't the confessional a tool, misused by some, for covering crime, rather than encouraging the reporting of it?

Is this misuse unChristian? What would Jesus expect his churches to do?

Doesn't the actions of Churches, in failing to report serious and horrid crimes against people, undermine the very fabric of what Christianity allegedly stands for?

So, why don't Catholics insist, that their leaders, hand all known and suspected perpetrators of these crimes over to the police, for independent investigation?

When you call yourself Christian, does one take on the obligation of representing Christ as much as one can, as best as one can? Do religions protect Christ's name?

Why isn't the reporting of all crime initiated and insisted upon by the members of religions? Is it really the victims responsibilty?

Dear Bushbasher,
Three scriptures that have always puzzled me are
1 Judge not lest you be judged.
2 Judge all things.
3 Decern all spirits.
All about judging.
1. is about the flesh and sin which we all have in common while we are in the body. All have sined none is exempt so finger pointing is not right.
2. Is about judging from a diferent perspective. Read the works of the flesh and the works of the spirit to understand the diference.
3 As you judge situations by decernment of the spirit you see by the manifestation which tree it comes from, for the tree of life produces
good fruit {positive}, or the tree of knowledge produces bad fruit {negative}.Allways remember the fight is not against flesh and blood
{people} but against the evil rulers of the unsean world. The word is our weapon "The Sword of the Spirit". That is why Jesus comanded us to love one an other and to pray for those who persecute you.

richie10, i assume your post was directed to O2.

no bushbasher it was not directed at anyone in paticular just a revelation I got last night in my quiet time with the Lord

Why scripture puzzles most Christians.

1. The OT is a one sided view of history written by man. It contains atrocities committed in God's name and presents unintelligent laws as being from God. It is an insult to an intelligent God!

2. The Gospels are what Christianity should be based on. Jesus=Christ=Christian=Follower of Christ's explicit teachings. However, these also contain some troubling passages for Christians. Luke 19 11-27

3. From the ACTS on these are man's interpretations (often wrong) of Jesus' teachings. Churches tend to be Paul based rather than Jesus based! 1 Timothy 11-12 - Paul oppressing an entire gender (women)!

So Jesus said Matthew 7 - Do not judge others...not even homosexuals! The instruction is unequivocal! But Christians love homosexual bashing and judging!

1 John 4 1-3 explains how to tell a good or false spirit. This was allegedly written by John the Evangilist around 100AD. It is too simplistic to be inspired by an intelligent God.

To fool this test "acknowledge Jesus Christ came as a human being, has the spirit and comes from God", then he is believed and can do any manner of evil things disguised by his false admission of his love for God.

This test is ludicrous.

Discerning all spirits is an interesting concept, except Christians don't seem to be doing it, seeing the alleged crimes that have gone on in Religious organisations.

If this discernment comes from the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit is failing badly.

So if God allegedly gives his followers this gift do they insult him by not using it?

1 John 4 is a clear warning from a man (John) to watch out for false spirits!

The problem is that with the obvious lack of discernment by many, if not most of his followers, evil seems to thrive and in Jesus' own alleged religions especially!

Is it discernment to report a crime? Then why don't Christian organisations do it?

If church leaders don't report crimes - is that evil?

If your religion has not reported a crime is attending poor discernment?

Being a Christian has obligations!