Thanks ChazP for you wise reminder to return to the actual issue. Yes, the real problem is getting cogent evidence to support a claim that a child's health and well-being is at risk or is being compromised because of behaviours that would never be tolerated from a stranger. The term 'victim' becomes a matter of allegation and denial as it is, of itself, usually insufficient evidence to have any valid claim, or even counselling records of what the child has said admitted, usually because of alleged bias to the protective parent. Schools, doctors, others wont get involved. How do we achieve a system which listens to the child, observes the child, and understands the developmental processes of child's brain. If only everyone recognised the crucial obligation of us all to work in ways that give each child their best chance. That at best they are on loan to us.

Cotter ~ I think a start could be made by promoting that the child's safety and protection from abuse and exploitation must be paramount in any legal proceedings and that the child's direct testimony to the Court is vitally important in this decision-making process, so that misrepresentations and misinterpretations of the child's wishes and feelings by Family Reporters is minimised. Secondly, a very clear definition of a `meaningful relationship' between a child and parent must be clearly established and not be merely an assumption. A parent should be able to clearly and convincingly demonstrate that they have enjoyed a continuous loving, caring, and supportive relationship with the child throughout the child's lifetime and to have understood and given primacy to the child's needs and development.

ChazP writes 'A parent should be able to clearly and convincingly demonstrate that they have enjoyed a continuous loving, caring, and supportive relationship with the child throughout the child's lifetime and to have understood and given primacy to the child's needs and development.' But what is actually happening in Family Courts is men who have fathered a child but never parented, left, been violent and/or completely neglected or rejected their obligations to the child are being rewarded for reentering the scene, at their leisure. Given legal aid to fight for the right to be part of the child's life, where if they really wanted to be decent fathers, they'd stop being aggressive, do something to assist them to be the best parent they can be NOW, apologise for any damage they've caused and get on with it.

Obviously some good dads have left their child's life for reasonable reasons, and may need to fight to overcome barriers, but I really find the promotion of father's rights no matter how damaging they have been, and are being to children, abhorrent and criminal. Yes, some women shouldn't have their children, but why must we destroy decent mothers in our haste to pacify fathers?
While ever good men refuse to speak out about the reality of violence and abuse against women, you allow the dreaded feminist agenda to hold on tightly. I often speak about violence (against anyone), so don't bother whining 'what about the men'.

DV is something committed against people who often do not know they are victims, by people who do not see what they do as criminal. However, it does damage the children, and people committed to a fair and safer society would demand that safety be a base prerequisite for any access.

Niether of you two have defended your comments, despite the large holes and unsubstantiated statements in them exposed by other posters (including myself).

You have shown that the strongest and most prejudiced individuals are often (even predominantly) disguised in 'intellectual' 'debates' and present themselves with the trappings of intellectualism or educated learnings.

It is people like you ChazP and Cotter who are precisely why laymen and lesser educated types mistrust 'academia' and expert, honest opinions/arguments. You taint it greatly with your dishonesty and ideology.

We all want a better deal for children. constant blaming won't change a thing.

The current culture is to leave everything to DOCS and the police. This is the problem. DOCS and police are really one and the same - agents of social control, welfare and law, that parents are wary of if not openly hostile to; these agencies are not equiped to render daily assistance to needy families.

We need a culture change. Family crisis is better managed in the first instance by neighbours and friends. When a family is in trouble it gives out signals and those around know what these are, from an untidy house to noisy disturbances. When these symptoms occur we need a culture that reacts rather than the present one that ignores them.

When a neighbour or other contact with a dysfunctional family get wind of a problem its time to get someone round to give assistance - not to lay blame, not to prosecute, but to get in and give a hand. Stressed families unravel. they need non-judgemental support. Being alone in a crisis is hell. When kids are mum and dads only contact things can and do go horribly wrong.

Things to try:

How about notifications to Council in the first instance. How about Council's sending someone around to assess - maybe helping tidy the place up, get the housework done, give mum and dad a break, get the kids into activities, get mum and dad into activities.
We can all use help sometimes and as a culture we are lacking in accepting it and lacking in offering it.

All neighbours can offer something to each other. Councils can do much more in stimulating street and neighbourhood schemes to get people together, to share with each other, to break down this culture of aloness so prevalent in this country. other countries have these schemes.

Children need to be treated as equals in the family and their wishes respected and acted upon. When they say they want out or want to be with a particular parent those wishes need acting on.

"We all want a better deal for children. constant blaming won't change a thing."

No we don't. They have a great deal already. It should be up to the parents and only the parents. You would have neighbours spying on one another and removing children....unbelievable.