At last - a 'tell it like it is' contribution from a jewish thinker. The Palestinian people have been on the receiving end of an ever increasingly brutal occupation and land squeeze since the Balfour declaration. Driven by the various christian right factions, previously centred in Britian but now in America, the on-going violence in Israel et al is, in the final analysis, a result of one thing only - the nonsensical expectation among right wing christians of the return of Jesus, and the eventual fullfilment of alleged biblical prophecy. This outrageous rubbish has been the downfall of the Palestinian cause.

this religious nonsense plays a role, but the key element of the establishment of the zionist bandits was the '48 elections in the usa: harry truman needed a big jewish turnout, and got it by allowing usa jews to support the zionist cause with money and guns. only fair, i suppose, since allowing irish catholic americans to support the ira was a continuing factor in usa politics.

there was nothing moral, fair, or just about the establishment of israel. murder in retail and wholesale lots was the tool, hamas learned all they know from irgun.

the notion that jews in israel deserve any sympathy seems very strange to me, they are getting what they gave, and the account is still a long ways out of balance.

Yeah...you have to hate those repressive expansionistic Israelis who gave Gaza back and have been defending themselves from Arab attacks ever since they were granted a state....
The bastards just don't know when to roll over and just take it....

For a race of people whose inhuman treatment by the Nazis created such seemingly enduring sympathy for them from the bulk of the Western world, it is a pity that they became so arrogant over such a short historical period.

No doubt America should share much of blame, made worse by letting the Jewish Israelis go militarily nuclear in almost double-quick time.

It was Immanuel Kant who swore after Napoleon's double-cross of Enlightenment Reasoning, that from now on not one nation nor one person should ever control this world alone. Better a Federation of powerful nations, what we now call multipolarism.

What we have instead is a unipolar US which has ruined Israel's future in the eyes of the world, by using her as a nuclear-armed outpost in the Middle East - and which in the future will most likely cause war with Iran and with Russia and China possibly moving in to help Iran - proving how right Immanuel Kant was to warn the world against the imperialism of the elitist unipolar.

Regards - BB, WA

Keep plugging away Antony. Sooner or probably much later, the religious right will realise that the "Promised Land" is just an illusion and "do unto others" applies equally to Zionists as it does to Palestinians. The development of nuclear weapons in Iran may make them change their attitude toward their Palestinian brethren.

David

Welcome to Anthony Lowenstiens world of paganism.

OH.. but where does he live ? In Sderot where Missiles from the newly 'given back' Gaza are lobbed with monotonous regularity ? Nope.. he lives far from all the trouble in Australia, and it's SOOOO easy to yap away about 'human rights' when you can be sure that the only disturbing thing in your life will be an 'abusive phone call' from a fellow Jew.

I refer ALL READERS to the thread "West Bank Settlers" for a discussion of this issue from another perspective.

Human Rights ? ROFL extended to Palestinians as well as Jews?

This has to be the joke of the century.. Mr Lowenstien may as well climb to the top of the Shrine of remembrance and hold up a HUGE sign saying "I don't have the slightest clue about either human nature or history".. and he would be absolutely right.

Here we are... just 60 years since the last major world conflict in which we participated... and "Oh..Human Rights will solve everything" ..

Where DO they find these loonies? If one reads the 'Kings' or Chronicles in the Old Testament.. there were plenty of 'break times' between major conflagrations of 60 yrs.. but during the 'peace' times all countries were re-arming, re-populating, and rePLANNING how they could either get out from under someones jackboot or PUT others under theirs.. and frankly..NOTHING has changed !

But.. the Oracle.. Anthony, and his leftist bedfellows... have finally after all this time.. "FOUND THE TRUTH"... yep..and its called 'Human Rights' (choke)

If it was not so patently transparent that he really means the rights which HE PREFERS due to his political position, it would be worth arguing against, but at this point.. mockery is probably all his piece deserves.

Boaz, one wonders why you bothered to raise you head seeing that you treat Antony's contribution with so much disdain. Indeed, one might also ask "where do you live" and therefore what right do you have to speak on behalf of your Zionist mates.

I feel sorry for the Israelis, pawns as we all are in the Big Game. It is not well known the great degree to which Zionists collaborated with the Nazi regime, both had an interest in deporting Jews out of Europe. The danger to both sides was the great degree to which European Jews were assimilating, and losing their 'uniqueness'. The Ghetto works both ways, the external threat serves to band people together and protect their cultural way of life. Israel is just a big ghetto, and the Zionists need the constant threat of extermination to keep Jews Jewish. Otherwise, Israel would fairly quickly become just another Western secular state, where religion is private and in decline. Peace is the last thing Zionists want.

I am a supporter of Israel behind the '67 border, though I am uncomfortable with the injustice suffered by the native people through Israel's creation to salve Western Holocaust guilt. I had this idealistic vision of the Kibbutz movement, which US influence has crushed. Not much left in Israel to support now, except the human rights of her people, Arab and Jew.

I feel sorry for the Israeli people because of the next holocaust. Their country is a blight on the world, and would have disappeared decades ago if not for the support of the US. The US backs Israel not because of an all-powerful Jewish lobby, these people are to be the scapegoats when the American people turn on the US government. Oil of course, and Israel is the only friendly, secure regime in the region; a fixed aircraft carrier and the wedge between pan-Arab nationalism. Israel owes its existence to US protection, and this is another reason there will be no peace. When the US no longer needs Israel, they will leave, they always do. There are no friends in geo-politics, only interests. As the last drop of American interest flows out of Arabia, so will the Marines from the top of the US embassy in Tel Aviv.

And then we will have a real holocaust that no one could deny.

Rather mysterious post Earthrise. Can you make it a bit clearer who will be destroyed in this 2nd holocaust?

As for the others who believe Israel to be "in trouble" get real. Last year only Iran was making threats and Syria mumbling something or other, whereas 50 years ago you could probably name 20 countries or more which were willing to send troops and support to get rid of the Zionist Entity. So much have times changed.

Israel has been steadfast and the Arabs have crumbled. The Palestinians (the WHO?) are perennial refugees; not wanted in most Arab lands (not given citizenship as is the international norm) and in general a troublemaking underclass. Ripped off by their Great Leader "Yasser the Omnipotent" they've turned on themselves and their hosts (ie Lebanon)in murderous stupidity. That's life, I guess. Cheers.

Thanks, Earthrise, for the real reality in the Middle East.

Pity Pax Americana has never learnt the truth about power politics in a democracy.

In means in a democracy, a balance of power - a sharing of power, not one big power trying to call the tune.

Such a pity America never retained the generosity she showed after the victory of WW2. A case of showing forgiveness to your former enemies.

With the corporate culture that has arisen since globalisation, we are back again to the days of the British and Dutch East india companies, and when the Hudson Bay Company owned half of Canada.

You can see it with our local politics in the workplace, back to the employer expecting the right to hold the big end of the stick, just as America is determined to hold it over the world.

Very interesting that the Jewish community comprises only 15% of Danby's Melbourne Ports electorate.
Danby is a fifth column full-time apparatchik for a foreign power, a rogue state at that.
What is Danby doing for the other 85% of his electorate? And what is he doing to represent the anti-Zionist contingent within the Jewish community in his electorate?
p.s. Grey - Israel did not give Gaza back.

David Boaz, here are some facts since Israel "gave" Gaza back.

15,000 + rockets.
550+ air raids plus daily sonic boom flights over Gaza.
660 dead including 141 kids.
1500+ injured including many kids.
14,000 acres of land bulldozed along with 400 more homes and an 850 year old mosque.
The strip has been closed to the outside world with Israel controlling every movement in and out.

23 Israeli's were killed, most of them soldiers with about 1,000 penny crackers fired from Gaza.

You need to get a grip on the reality of the situation - Israel are the occupiers. Palestinians are the victims.

Got that? I suggest you get Ilan Pappe's Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and read it in horror. He didn't make it up, 531 villages, 13 major urban centres and 3 million acres of land were destroyed by Israel, the map of the villages is included in the book, 750,000 forced to flee and atrocities so violent they make Hitler look like Mary Poppins were inflicted by Irgun, Stern and Haganah.

It is always the aim of mankind to ethnically cleanse the other tribe if they begin to feel they are territorially threatened in any way.
The Jews want the Palestinians gone and the Palestinians want the Jews gone.

The same feelings existed in Germany between the Jews and the Germans
the problem has just been shifted to Palestine.
Yes the British established a Jewish state in Palestine after World War 2. That was to punish the Arabs for collaborating with the Germans.
Regardless of how the Jews got there this is a deadly territorial dog fight to the death between the Palestinians and the Jews.
Both sides don't really have anywhere else to call home.

Sharkfin, the Jews all have somewhere else to be, that is the whole point. Only 39% of the world's jews even bother to live in Israel because they simply don't want to leave the 100 other countries they are in.

42% of all jews in the world live in the US. The Palestinians on the other hand have not come from Russia, the US, Europe and all over with right of "return" to a country they had never been to.

The whole notion is an absurdity.

I do think Israel is in trouble. I know this might seem like a strange thing to say, as others have pointed out the balance between Israeli and Arab forces have never been so lopsided. But Israel is not defended by nukes and Merkava tanks, it is protected by international opinion. Or should I say the 'International Community', which means America and its vassals. Israel is a modern Western State, fully integrated into the global community; it is very vulnerable economically. The stronger Israel's military dominance becomes, the harder it is to play the struggling 'democracy' in a sea of hate. Their strength is their weakness.

People have brought up Israel 'giving back' Gaza as signs of Israel's good intentions. And others have rightly said that all Israel has done is get their people out of land they didn't want, with the intention of turning it into an open-air prison. One of Israel's many fears is that poor Palestinians are breeding at a faster rate, and to maintain both the illusion of democracy, and their actual goal of building a racist Jewish state, they needed to move some Arabs out of their area of responsibility. But it was politically painful to uproot those radical settlers from Gaza, it also set a dangerous precedent for the possible future withdraw from the West Bank. They did not get out of Gaza just to be nice, they were forced to counter growing international opinion against the Occupation. The Gaza withdraw exposed Israel's weakness, as did their crushing defeat by Hezbollah. Their absolute lack of political leadership is another example of the real situation. America would not be squandering its own treasure in Iraq, Lebanon, and Iran in the future, to protect Israel if it were not much worse than we know.

Dear Palestinians, it is always darkest before the dawn. Hold on for just a few more years.

Marylin,

More than 70% of the population in Jordan identify themselves as palestinians, so according to your logic Jordan is where they should call home, however ironically enough no one in israel is seriously considering deporting the palestinias to Jordan

Like others before me, I have been careful to make myself a small target for anti-semetic attacks, believing as I genuinely do that race and religion are but false flags in the larger struggle for power and profit. And who needs the aggro?

The Globalists (filthy rich, stop-at-nothing criminals) come in all hues, all shapes. They conceal themselves in the very foundations of polite civilisation. But the most shameless and cowardly use the people of Israel for their human shields.

So many global criminals hide under the skirts of Zionism, which in it's turn hides under the skirts of Judaism, which in it's turn still shelters under the crimes of the Nazis. With so many layers of the onion to peel, it's no wonder we end up with smelly fingers and teary eyes.

But even that system is not perfect. It is only necessary to realise that successive Zionist Israeli governments handed their mantle of "poor and oppressed masses" over to the Palestinians long ago.

Ergo the Palestinians are today's Jews.

- so don't flinch or feel guilty when sticking up for them. It's exactly what we might have done in the 1930's.

Dear Marilyn.. always good to see your balanced unbiased posts :)

VK3 do you know what the Jewish feast of Purim is about ?

Have a read of the book of Esther, and find a man named "Haman"
See what he tried to do, and how he was stopped.....
All Jews will know his name, and why his name is remembered, and that was over 2500 yrs ago.

To this day, the Jews know the value of 'highly placed people' in foreign governments who can save their rear end in times of international strife.

I get a bit weary of the 'historically ignorant, philosophically naive, leftoid tripe' trotted out by the likes of Anthony, and don't worry about me having a little dabble in 'mockery' ..I'm mocking his ideas.. and after all.. I never get that toward my posts......do I ? :)

As a person who has already lived in Israel and seen first hand the racism and inequality which exists towards the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel, I certainly have no criticisms for Mr. Loewenstein's article who basically focuses on an inhumane and oppressive occupation which should shame all Jews worldwide, especially in light of the fact that Jews were once oppressed people. It is with deep regret to say that nothing is learned from history, but sadly the roles just change. The Palestinians have definitely become the new Jews, and the Israelis have become a supremacist society with complete indifference to what is happening in their midst, and what has been happening over the course of decades.

Many years ago, those courageous Germans who spoke out were called "self-hating Germans." If it is considered hateful for Jews to speak out against such gross injustices directed at an entire population of people based strictly on their identity, then one should consider it an honor to be called "self-hating Jews."

"Anti-semitism" has become the weapon of choice at any criticism of Israel to push people into silence. I think the world is waking up to this fact.

I thank Mr. Loewenstein for his article

Marlene,

Arabs who live in Israel are intiteled for Israeli citizenship. They have equal rights, they are supported by the Israeli welfare system and they are represented in the Israeli parliament with a freedom of speech that thier brothers in coutries like Syria, can only dream of.

The comparisson between Israel and the Nazi ragim is nothing but ignorant and misleading, and it is based on historical facts that are taken out of context. The Nazi ideaology was based on Racism, i.e. discremination based on race or other common ground such as homosexuality. The Nazi's believed that along with the Jewish people there is no room for black people, homosexuals, gypsis, etc etc. The Israeli - Arab conflict isn't based on race discremination, or on the belief that Israeli's are superior to the Arabs. It is based on the belief of each side that they have historical ownership rights on the land. Further more, as you mentioned yourself, while one needed a lot of courage in order to speak up against the Nazi's ragim, you don't need to be courageous in order to speak up against the Israeli policy in Israel, why? because it is a democracy.

As for Mr Loewenstein, I respect his opinion, but disrespect self rightousness.

No-one cares to recall that during the Cold War, much of the Arab, Anti-Israel camp was firmly in the Soviet Pocket. The Arab/Israeli conflict was largely a proxy battle between western capitalist democracy (though with strong socialist elements; kibbutzes etc) and autocratic totalitarianism.

Whereas any displaced "Palestinian" from Israel itself could become a citizen (hundreds of thousands took up the offer and returned), the Soviet-supported Arab Regimes generally refused the Right of Citizenship to those Arabs who had fled Israel and who wouldn't return. In effect, the Palestinians were kept in their sad state as a perennial "point of grievance". Now that the USSR is gone, so is the Palestinians practical usefulness to the left.

As I pointed out previously, over the past few decades most Arab/Muslim regimes have come to grips with the demise of the Soviet Union and dropped their hostility to Israel. Only the terrorist states of Syria and Iran are trying to keep the flame of anti-Zionism flickering. With some support in this Forum Thread, of course. Good company guys. Though I suspect that most of you are not posting from Damascus or Teheran! Cheers, regardless.

Anthony, Your comment: "The Jewish establishment reacted with predictable apoplexy. Douglas Kirsner, chair of the Public Affairs Committee of the B’nai B’rith Anti-Defamation Commission, disingenuously claimed that, “It’s pure invention to say that there isn’t vigorous debate about Israel in the Jewish community and the Jewish media. It’s a pluralistic community where disagreement is king - there are no fatwas" is simply contradicted by your following coment " ... when it comes to Israel, dissent from the official, Israeli Government line, is treated with contempt and intimidation."
How can Kirsner's comment that "disagreement is king" be "disingenuous" when you agree that it is treated with contempt, etc?

From a historical and philosophical point of view, very interesting commentaries on a so much needed main thesis.

Indeed, it makes OLO the type of liberal discussion area our world needs so much today.

Though we do not all agree, only good can come out of such intellectual delving.

Keep up the good work, OLO classmates.

Regards - BB, WA.

yazoo thats garbage, Arab Israeli citizens are not treated as equals but rather you'll find that the majority are discriminated against and are treated as second class citizens.

I suggest you watch this documentary "Israel, a state of its citizens?"

PART 1 http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=israel+a+state+of+its+citizens+

PART 2
http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=israel+a+state+of+its+citizens+

PART 3
http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=israel+a+state+of+its+citizens+

Peachy,

Your post is a perfect example for people who are fed by crap that the media is broadcasting. If you want a balanced view then perhaps you should try queries on Google such as: "are Arab Israeli citizens loyal to their country?" or maybe "were Arab Israeli citizens ever involved in terror attacks against Israeli's?", and then perhaps you will begin to understand why there is so much mistrust and fear between the TWO sides, which is also the primary reason why Arabs and Israeli's are facing a great challange ending this conflict. The truth changes it's color when you put it in different a context. The video clips on Google are nothing but populist rubbish.

Earthrise

I never fails to astound me the number of so-called progressive people who strongly oppose the war on terror, yet are quite happy to accept the destruction of Israel.

Not only is this bigotry in the extreme, people who like to think of themselves as liberal defend this idea. One might as well say that Britain would have disappeared had it not been for the Americans with their lend lease program etc. This might is right attitude is frankly astounding coming from so-called progressives.

You call Israel racist for not wanting more Arabs inside their border, yet I am sure you won’t be complaining about the fact that Arab and Muslim countries are racist themselves. Hatred of Jews is taught in classrooms across the Middle East. How many Jews live in Arab countries?

A Jewish state was mandated by the League of Nations in 1922 following the Balfour Declaration. The UN special commission on Palestine recommended the creation of two states. The UN general assembly voted 33 to 13 to support this plan.

It suits the purposes of those who hate the US and Israel to pretend that Israelis are not under constant threat from Arab militants. Israel is at war with an enemy who seeks its total destruction. Anyone who doubts this should peruse the Hamas and Hezbollah charters.

It is clear that when you talk about peace you actually mean the destruction of the state of Israel. The only way Israel is going to be annihilated now is if Iran gets a nuclear weapon. Something some OLO posters actually hope for. At the same time these people vehemently oppose the sale of uranium to India.

Bushbred

Your rubbish about global democracy falls down because a large majority of countries on earth aren’t democratic at all. Especially in the Middle East.

America’s forgiveness to its former enemies didn’t take place until after the allies WON and were safe from attack.

Marilyn

I am sure you have heard the quote, ‘there are lies, damn lies and statistics.’ I’d like to know who put yours together.

Boaz, I will have to agree with you on one point,
"To this day, the Jews know the value of 'highly placed people' in foreign governments who can save their rear end in times of international strife."
Get your head out of the bible and its biased pro Jewish teachings. The Jews ceased to be God's chosen people millenia ago.

Paull,
"It suits the purposes of those who hate the US and Israel to pretend that Israelis are not under constant threat from Arab militants. Israel is at war with an enemy who seeks its total destruction. Anyone who doubts this should peruse the Hamas and Hezbollah charters."
Of course they are under constant threat and why should they not be. If the Iranians get their act together they will be under more threat and with the balance of power swinging against them they may at last realise that they have to give the Palestinians a better deal.

David

David (VK3) the point I make about the Jews and 'chosen people' is basically this:

Considering that the Settlers do not recognize Jesus as Messiah, they are still mentally living in the 'Covenant relationship' mode of the Old Testament.

Rightly or wrongly, they are seeking to Honor Yahweh and live within that Covenant. Because they are actually OBEYING the covenant, there is no mental or spiritual barrier in 'THEIR' minds about their status as 'owners' rather than 'occupiers'.

Honestly, I don't know how it will all pan out, but one think I'm sure of, nothing 'we' mankind do will alter it.
My gut feeling, based on scripture, including the various prophecies is this.
-The temple will be rebuilt
-War will break out.
-An antiChrist figure will emerge.
-Israel will lose the immediate war (after the Temple has been restored) and the temple will be defiled. A false prophet will try to lead mankind away from Christ.
-Armageddon will occur
-Christ will return.

There is much I could have put there, but its too speculative.

If I'm wrong....then so be it :) but I would be keeping a close eye on events in the Middle East AND in Europe...and be on the look out for an economic system which requires all of us to be somehow 'linked' to it.

Palestinian terror ? I'd say 'you aint seen nothin yet' but for a glimpse of how it might be if it could see here.

http://www.truelebanon.bravehost.com/pics/dampics-slideshow.html

If the Israelis used their true power now...they could do the same as the PLO did at Damour, and finish the job completely. Arabs should be thankful they don't take the PLO approach to the Christians of Damour.

Marilyn- "The Jews all have somewhere else to be, only 39% bother to live in Isreal".

Arent there presently a few million Jews living in Isreal? (39%)?
They cannot all leave Palestine and go somewhere else as you say.

What country in the world is going to permit the immigration of millions of Jews into their country all at once. Or even 10's of thousands if split between different countries. This was exactly the problem after World War2. No country in the world would take such huge numbers of Jewish refugees. As I said the British settled the issue by putting the Jews in Palestine because the Arabs collabrated with Hitler in his plans to exterminate the Jews.

The Arabs and the Jews are both guilty of wanting the same thing Ethnic cleansing of the other side. Ethnic cleansing is actually territorial tribal warfare. We've seen it many many times before in conflicts around the world.

Earthwise- "They did not get out of The Gaza just to be nice."

They got out of The Gaza because Hezbollah constantly stated that their occupation of The Gaza was the reason they kept firing rockets into Israel. It was when Hezbollah kept attacking after they gave back The Gaza that Israel attacked them again.
You failed to mention that The Gaza and West Bank was taken during the six day war when the Arab states attacked Israel and were defeated in a short six days.

"the crushing defeat of Isreal by Hezbollah" Where do you get your information from. Al Jazerra television?

Isreal was ordered to stop their attack by the increasing pressure being applied by the United Nations and World Opinion.
They could have wiped the place off the map if they'd really wanted too.

And they knew very well that if they did wipe Hezbollah out, they would have lost the support of a lot of their fellow conspiritors.

Marilyn said: "The Palestinians on the other hand have not come from Russia, the US, Europe and all over with right of "return" to a country they had never been to."

No, the Palestinians already have a neighbouring state to call home.

To quote Canadian writer Mark Steyn:

"In fact, there is a Palestinian state: it's called Jordan, whose population has always been majority Palestinian. It's not as big a state as it used to be, but that's because King Hussein, in the worst miscalculation of his long bravura highwire act, made the mistake of joining Nasser's 1967 war to destroy Israel. Hence, the 'occupied territories': they're occupied because the Arabs attacked Israel and lost."

By the way, Steyn is not Jewish.

Paull, we resent you calling global democracy rubbish. At least it is an attempt to try to give every nation the fair go it deserves, as we talked about as we waited to be discharged after the end of WW2.

As a historian, it scares me to think that you might believe in a unipolar global authority similar to the way America is now.

Any world historian worth his salt will tell you that it was the German philosopher Immanuel Kant who heralded the necessity of multipolar global management after Napoleon who was a product of the Enlightenment, double-crossed Liberternian principles when he declared himself Emperor.

As I have mentioned previously, Paull, you could well do with a course in political philosophy.

Regards BB, WA

BB

I have studied politics and history at a university level where I swallowed all the far-left bullsh#t they now push. But I am no longer surprised by your patronizing comments about my education. They are merely indicative of your inability to produce evidence to back up your arguments. Invoking Kant doesn’t prove your case. It merely announces your position.

Your contention that the future of Israel should be decided by a so-called democratic vote in the Middle East is hypocritical. I wonder whether you think Tibet’s future should be decided by an Asian vote? No doubt the Chinese would love that idea. Should we be able to vote out the Fijian gov’t because we are all part of the South West Pacific?

I’m all for multi-polar global management. I just don’t agree that non-democratic countries should have a leadership role. I believe that democratic countries are, by their very nature, superior to non democratic countries. The idea that humanitarian intervention can be vetoed by a single country, as Russia attempted during the Bosnian crisis, makes a mockery of the UN.

The left’s all inclusive feel good view of the world ignores the reality that many nations aren’t interested in being good global citizens. They can’t be won over by goodwill and negotiation.

What’s most instructive though, is your consent for military action when you consider the cause is just. Ie getting rid of Napoleon or eliminating Israel. It seems to me that you’re just not happy about who decides whether a cause is just.

By the way, wasn’t Kant a libertarian who opposed democracy because majority rule was a threat to individual liberty.

You still don't get it, Paull. You are so much like the Americans who seem to keep on making the same mistakes as they have done in Iraq.

Similar to the way you have got me wrong when I talk about war. What I meant about Russia and China being friendly with Iran is the hope that it may stop that war-mad Cheney having his way in Iran.

The Iranians would not be easy to defeat, even by themselves. Remember they were able to defeat Iraq, though Iraq had American backing as well as sympathy from the Soviets.

I have no real liking for the Islamists, Paull, it is just that I believe in a fair go, that's all. Certainly much of the world now is in the same mind, big America playing the bully boy too much. After Vietnam, it is a wonder Americans never woke up - but there she goes again into Iraq, talking about changing hearts and minds and instead just manufacturing scads more terrorism.

Yet Americans have kind sensible sides besides, proven after they did get out of Vietnam how hatred and terrorism can subside, as it did with the Brits after they got out of Malaysia and Singapore.

Reckon they might have left Iraq too late, however, especially as the Americans are talking about replacing an elected leader. That's just slipping downhill backwards as the way American minds seem to be now working

bushbred,

History should have taught you that the equilibrium you suggest, between the West and the rest of the world is simply impossible, and cannot exist. There will always be global polarization: rich vs poor, strong vs weak, Judaism vs Islam vs Christianity, Republicans vs Democrats and the list of polarizations in our lives just goes on and on.

What really worries me is the polarization in your views. On the one hand you have no likings to the Islamists, but on the other hand you think they deserve a fair go? To me it seems that what really drives you is your blind hate to America, more then you really care or pretend to know about the conflict in the Middle East.

You should just say thank you for being on the strong side and stop suggesting nonsense that will get us all into trouble.

I would find it hard to quarrel with a quintessence of an article that is “Today, it is perhaps not Australian Jews but the Palestinian victims of an illegal, brutal military occupation that deserve sympathy”: Australian Jews, an author of an article inclusively, have a choice between residing in ethnically-segregated, biologically-motivated, de facto anti-Semitic, MULTICULTURAL Australia and becoming the “oppressors-brutal occupants” in own far-from-paradice Jewish State of Israel as the Arabs of Palestine, the Palestinians, had instantly been rejected by any of brotherly Muslim-Arabic states worldwide but racist Israel potentially allowing citizenship both by birth and through marriage for Palestinian -and all other- Arabs residing in a “land of Zionist aggressor”.

I certainly do not want the destruction of Israel, though Zionism must perish. I accept the UN borders of 1947-8, and as the only (imperfect) global law, I accept the State of Israel. Pre-1967, I am a supporter of Israel, especially the Kibbutz movement. But the Occupation destroys any moral position that includes the name Israel. If we didn't fight the Nazis to say that we can never accept again the forced transfer of people and the conquest of another's land by force, what the hell were we doing!

The Occupation is the original sin that undermines the very existence of the State of Israel. The pendulum has been traversing its Rightward arc since Thatcher and Reagan, am I alone in feeling the momentum starting to change? As that pendulum begins to swing Left, rising popular movements are going to turn their indignant attention to the Zionist cancer in our world. Israel has exported the consequences of her dirty land grab to the world in the guise of the "war of Terror", people will start to follow the trail back home soon enough. They have attempted to confuse people legitimately fighting a foreign occupation with the real terrorists, both rogue and State.

After the change in US presidents, all we need is a growing anti-apartheid campaign against Israel, coupled with a well-led non-violent civil disobedience campaign by the Palestinians, and Israel will fold. It has begun, Western churches and universities have begun divesting their interests in Israel; the clock is ticking. Which is why the US and Israel as so keen for a war, to redraw the local situation before Israel is forced to make peace.

I will not be free until the Israeli and Palestinian flags fly in Jerusalem.

Hi Earthrise- nice to see your regular contributions these days.

I'm not sure how you can accomplish "the death of zionism"... I'll guess ur not Christian ? or that you don't place much importance on the Biblical concept of the Land and Covenant, but in this conflict the key issue is....the Settlers DO.... and while you may be able to persuade some non Jewish people.. and even secular Jews...that 'zionism' is a bad thing, the chances of persuading the Settlers are 2....buckleys and none.

Zionism is very deeply rooted in 4000 yrs of history, and cannot be separated from the Biblical foundations.

I mean.. try to tell a Jewish Settler who has just visited Rachels tomb or the Cave of Macpelah, or hears the sound of Abrahams goats and sheep bleeting and baa-ing in the wind and from the soil.....who re-lives the moment that Joseph revealed his true identity to his brothers who sold him into slavery, who walks to the well where Jacob (father of the 12 tribes) met Rachel and fell in love with her, that 'this is all wrong'.....it simply won't register :)

Left hand.. "Earthrise and similar well meaning peoples view "zionism must stop"

Right hand.."I will make of you a mighty nation, I give this land to you and your descendants forever, your descenants will be as uncountable as the sand of the sea, " (God)

Yep.. 'right' hand has it :)

Boaz, stop giving us all that Biblical BS. Your arguments are built on sand and the sands of time are running out for Israel's Zionist thugs.
Earthrise has made some very valid points.

David

Boazy: "while you may be able to persuade some non Jewish people.. and even secular Jews...that 'zionism' is a bad thing, the chances of persuading the Settlers are 2....buckleys and none."

That's precisely why the UN should send in a multinational force to kick the Zionist frootloops out. Israel won't do it, the US won't do it, so the UN should.

Who cares if the Zionists have 4000 years of mythology with which to delude themselves? That doesn't matter an iota to the Palestinians who were dispossessed after centuries of ownership of the land, nor should it matter in contemporary secular law.

Earthrise,

You acknowledge that the conflict has a history when you talk about pre-1967 borders. I am sure you are aware then that between 1948-1967 Jordanian forces occupied parts of Israel after the semi-succesfull invasion of the five Arab states. You will also be aware of the Egyptian annexation of the Gaza strip. Israeli Jews were driven from their homes in the Arab held areas.

When these Arab countries again tried to wipe out Israel in 1967, a much stronger Israeli army beat all comers and pushed the Jordanians (as well as the Syrians, Egyptians, Iraqis etc) back behind their borders. Captured land was held as a negotiating point for peace, when Arab aggression/violence had waned.

When Egypt renounced their campaign to destroy Israel the Sinai was returned to them and Palestinians residing on the Arab side of the green line were given autonomy.

Lets not forget that Barak offered the Palestinians a deal to create their own state at Camp David in 2000. Arafat rejected the proposal out of hand. He wasn’t interested in a two state solution. Arafat was still hoping for the annihilation of the Israelis. This strategy is still alive and well and can be seen in the charters of Hamas and Hezbollah. How can Israel make peace with groups who are dedicated to their very destruction?

What is most incredible to me is that supposedly intelligent people think we should use force against Israel, yet cannot abide the idea that the US has used force to return Iraq to the Iraqis.

I wonder Earthrise, if you really believe that people who deliberately target women and children are in any way legitimate?

BushBred,

I wonder what terrorism you think subsided after America left Vietnam? Do you include Pol Pot and his leftist mates. Do you mean those who executed or sent to reeducation camps anyone who was associated with the gov’t of South Vietnam?

How quickly we forget.

The hippys and bandwagon jumpers of the sixties and seventies have been proved totally wrong about the soviet union and international communism. It’s about time they admitted it.

Thanks Boaz,

For your honest and realistic post. I don't believe many strict Orthodox Jews are Zionists. My understanding is G-D took Jerusalem from the Jews because of their impiety and moral bankruptcy (at the time). They were only to regain Jerusalem once they had redeemed themselves. Zionism is actually secular, and is grounded in European nationalism, not Jewish religion. Most of the Settlers are American or Russian, and dislike the State of Israel. I have read many Jewish commentators who are disgusted with the Occupation, and see it as a threat to Jewish people everywhere. Let alone the whole world.

The Jewish claim to modern Israel (Palestine) is incredibly weak. When you consider the Egyptian, Babylonian and Roman expulsions, the Jewish people have lived in Palestine for a very short time. The Old Testament, and the events in the Gospels, gives their claim increased legitimacy in the West. Imagine you are Chinese or Indian, in other words almost half of the world, and the quaint stories in a book form very poor justifications for stealing another people's homes. The Palestinian people have been living there for at least 1900 years, and maybe descendent from Phoenician and other local Sematic tribes long before that. Western power gives Israel legitimacy, nothing else.

And Paul.l, why you think your propaganda and doublespeak do the Zionist cause any favours, I don't know. Rather than waste my time disputing every one of your points, I'll kill one and ask others to check the rest. Israel attacked Egypt and Syria in a pre-emptive strike in 1967, and they sunk the USS Liberty to cover up their crime. And are you really going to argue that Israel intends to freely give up Samaria and Judea, biblical names they use for what we call the West Bank? Now a question for you, how do you internalise the murder, rape, dispossession and genocide of millions of people? You either approve of this, or you have a great shrink.

Speaking of “claims of Israel on Palestine”, Earthrise, should, perhaps, clear understand that these claims are in any case much more substantial than those of the Muslims/Arabs on the same territories - and on significant areas Earth-wide Anglo-sphere accustomed to own, that is even the farms in Africa, Southern part of and Zimbabwe, for instance.

You still need to catch up on your historical learning, Paull.

It was Henry Kissinger as US Foreign Policy adviser who brought Cambodia into the Vietnam conflict in order to prevent Soviet battle supplies getting to the Viet Cong. The problem was that Kissinger had not contemplated the Pol Pot regime taking over the weak Cambodian government.

Certainly America has suffered from poor contemplation of outcomes.

There were many Brits with enough commonsense to be against the Americans allowing the Jewish remnants of the Nazi Holocaust returning to Israel the Promised Land were Palestinian Jews had already lived in comparative friendship with Arabs.

It is also interesting that while doing a course during the Cold War on International Relations we were told by an American tutor how Henry Kissinger already aware of future danger from the Arabs had made sure that shipments of arms, including planes and tanks had been there waiting for the future Israelis when they arrived.

Kissinger was also active during both short wars even negotiating with the Arabs, said to be telling them that his role was to make peace. And to give him his due, he made sure his Jewish brethren were well-armed just in case - and no doubt it was from Kissinger’s advice that the Israelis were so early illegally acquiring nuclear armaments.

But it was just in case that we were studying power balance principles to prevent more war, as certainly is the type of strategy that should be taught in our universities.

The problem in the world right now is not a balance of power between two combatants but one big autocratic nation- America- holding full power.

It is interesting that we were warned of this a long time ago, and even as the former Soviet leader Gorbachev warned that unipolar power was too selfish - and as Immanuel kant warned so long ago after he became disgusted with Napoleon calling himself Emperor after promising a campaign of liberty equality and fraternity.

From now on, said Kant, the only answer against major wars is a multipolar Federation of Nations.

Regards BB

Earthrise

As I’ve said previously, there is no point in calling my posts propaganda and doublespeak. Its juvenile. I could just as easily say you are captive to a lunatic far left conspiracy-theory which is simplistic, pseudo-intellectual and outdated.

You said “Israel attacked Egypt and Syria in a pre-emptive strike in 1967, and they sunk the USS Liberty to cover up their crime.”

Yes and no. Egypt and Syria had massed their armies (including 1000 tanks) on Israel’s borders and the Egyptians had blockaded the straits of Tiran. Whilst Israel’s attack on the Egyptian air force was a pre emptive strike, to pretend that the Six Day War was one of Israeli aggression is to totally ignore the facts. Consult any international law and you will find that the blockading of a port is considered casus belli.

The attack on the USS liberty occurred 3 days after the war had begun so what exactly were the Israeli Air Force covering up? Israel’s pre-emption had already been reported.

I don’t need to argue that Israel will give up the left bank. They already offered it to Arafat at Camp David in 2000 in return for peace along with the Gaza strip. Arafat knocked it back in the vain hope that one day all of Palestine will be Arab.

Genocide of millions? What planet do you live on?

Let me ask you how you live with Muslim terrorists who ONLY target INNOCENT men, women and children?

Its fairly typical of the small minds on OLO not to want to engage those who disagree with them. If what you really want is to preach to the choir be my guest.

I am hoping someone from the Left can give me a rational and valid response that challenges my beliefs, because I came from the left. I have always voted labour. I understand that most people on the left are well meaning, its just that they seem to so regularly resort to conspiracy style arguments which are self justified and seem to have no connection to the real world

Paul.L
your facts and figures are largely false, what sources exactly did you get that information from? no doubt regurgitated Zionist propaganda.
These accounts are based on the work of historians Willian L. Cleveland "A History of Modern Middle East", and Patrick Seale founded on 'historical record'...
Arab league forces representing the five countries had gathered twenty thousand men, with their heaviest armor consisting of twenty two light tanks and ten ancient spitfires, whereas the Jews had fifty two thousand active fighting troops and thirty thousand strong home guard "along with Irgun a 'special operations' or terrorist group".
The Egyptian army was largely bogged down in a civil war in Yemen, and was only able to send two divisions into Sinai. Jordan did attack, but this came only after so called "pre-emptive" Israeli action. On the Syrian border, it was Israel that invaded the de-militarised zone and "issued a series of threats ... to occupy Damascus and overthrow the Syrian regime"

The entire pretext of occupying the remaining 22 percent of Palestine based on an act of self defense is rubbish, the Arab league was in no position to invade Israel.

Did you actually study what was being proposed at camp david Paul? there was no '90 per cent' offer, Barak promised a military withdrawal from only 12 per cent of the Occupied territories. He also made it clear that Israel had no intention of giving back any part of greater Jerusalem, which covers some of the best Palestinian land and is considered the administrative and cultural heart of Palestine. Most of the Illegal settlements, which controlled 42 percent of the West Bank and Gaza, would stay, leaving a fragmented Palestine or 15 percent of pre-Israel Palestine. Have you seen a modern map of Palestine? Its not a country, its a joke!

Sorry folks I stand to be corrected, it was the 1948 war from which I sourced the information on the Arab leagues military..

Bushbred,

I think you need to have another look at history if you think that Kissinger brought Cambodia into the war. The communists were fully cognizant of the fact that the war was an Indochinese war. The major North-South main line of supply, the Ho Chi Minh trail, ran through both Laos and Cambodia. That’s not just Soviet supplies. Virtually ALL North Vietnamese formations marched down the Ho Chi Minh trail along with all of their weapons and supplies on their way to the South. So if anyone is responsible for Laos and Cambodia being involved it is the North Vietnamese leaders, Ho Chi Minh and Giap.

Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge didn’t just wink into existence. They were funded, armed and encouraged by both the USSR and China.

Peachy

I can’t believe your asking ME if I studied anything at all. Virtually all your information is wrong.

1948.

1. The armies of the 5 Arab states plus the volunteer corps from Saudi, Yemen invaded Israel after it announced its independence.
2. The Arab forces were initially around 20 000 strong but their tanks were Matildas, not light tanks at all. Israel had NO tanks. By the end of the conflict Arab forces in the field were more than 50,000 strong and included more than 150 tanks.
3. The Israeli forces were about 35 000 strong, but they were not a regular army. Twenty thousand of these troops were garrison-only troops.

Barak offered Arafat an eventual 91% of the West Bank, and all of the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian control over Eastern Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state; in addition, all refugees could apply for compensation of property from an international fund to which Israel would contribute along with other countries. But before any gradual Israeli withdrawal, all Palestinian terrorist infrastructure must be dismantled. Arafat, however, refused. The Palestinians wanted the immediate withdrawal of the Israelis from the occupied territories, and only subsequently the Palestinian authority would crush all Palestinian terror organizations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

Give the Zionist propaganda stuff a rest, by the way. Its juvenile.

Marilyn

Your not still citing Ilan Pappe!? But I suppose that any writer who supports your personal agenda is fine with you.

Ilan Pappe is among the most extreme of a group of radical Israeli historians - which include Benny Morris - who attempt to rewrite Israel’s history as born in original sin.

But unlike elsewhere in the Middle East, Israeli writers have freedom of speech.

Pappe have been discredited over and over again by historians and other intellectuals.

Pappe is a postmodernist, who believes that there is no such thing as historical truth.  He acknowledges he is not objective, his ideology as an activist in Israel’s fringe Communist party informs his historical writing and he admits caring little about historical accuracy. He liberally resorts to unsubstantiated facts and distorting truth to conform with his particular ideology.

For example, Pappe propagates the lie that Israeli committed a massacre in Jenin in 2002 despite copious refutations - including UN reports.

Benny Morris, himself, who has been accused of twisting the truth to fit his own hypothesis of Israel’s birth, stated Pappe’s work is appalling. 

He states: “The multiplicity of mistakes on each page is a product of both Pappé’s historical methodology and his political proclivities ... much of what Pappé tries to sell his readers is complete fabrication ... Anyone interested in the real history of Palestine/Israel and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would do well to run vigorously in the opposite direction...The Palestinians are forever victims, the Zionists are forever “brutal colonizers"..."

You always appear to portray America as only on the outside whenever there is blame to lay Paul. The brief account I gave is out of the history books we used for study. Next thing you will be saying is that Kissinger and Nixon are well in the clear concerning any blame concerning Cambodia being brought into the Vietnam War.

The same participants, the same arguments, the same stories although topics seemingly differ each from other.

Nothing is absolute and both the Jews and the Arabs of Palestine should reflect this changing reality, as well as the outside world should be used to.

What is juvenile Paul.l,

Is your false indignation at Palestinan suicide attacks. You pretend to care about 'innocents' while the Israeli Occupation Force is bulldozing houses down on their occupants, murdering mothers and their children with fletchette rounds from main battle tanks, shooting boys throwing stones, dropping bombs on a whole apartment building to kill one resistance fighter, letting pregnant mothers miscarriage at checkpoints, allowing people to die who need medical attention at these same checkpoints, bracing their assault rifles on the shoulders of Palestinian civilians while using them as human shields, sending these same innocents into booby-trapped houses, killing peace activists and aid workers in cold blood, I'm running out of room and heart to continue.

You seem to think that people left with no other option, against a vastly superior military force, against people occupying their land with no end in sight, shouldn't fight back? I am against the killing of innocent people on both sides, but you need to get some perspective. Try and balance the small number of people killed in suicide attacks next to the thousands and thousands killed by the Israeli war machine, and the millions held in bondage, denied basic human rights and the protection of the Geneva Convention.

I don't see the difference between someone who looks his target in the eye before they explode, and someone flying over a target at mach one who pushes a button, and murders the same innocents. The pilot can return the next day and murder all over again, and go home and eat dinner with his family.

How can you compare rogue terrorism to State terrorism, when one is in desperation, the other in exploitation?

What is more dangerous, a small band of rogue terrorists, or the forth largest military machine in the world, supported by the greatest? Which one has the greater capacity to murder innocents?

Why are you defending the aggressor?

Oh yeah Paul.l,

Genocide is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people, according to the official definition. I found this version on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)

'Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.'

The original expulsion of Palestinians in 1948 (the Nekba) certainly fits this definition. And since 1967, the systematic expropriation of Palestinian land, the destruction of their culture, the killing of crops and orchids, the demolition of thousands of houses, the destruction of their economy and the brutal conditions of the Occupation count as genocide.

And when you consider the ultimate plan of Israel is to assume sovereignty over most of the West Bank through settlement in breach of so many international laws and moral principles, this is genocide.

So why do you support genocide?

State
7. A politically unified people occupying a definite territory; nation.

I don’t think it’s longer prudent to refer to Palestine as a state, today its nothing but a fragmented body of dispossessed peoples, very similar to the existence black South African’s endured during apartheid. It’s not to say that it’s a perfect example, but in a macro sense its ‘grand apartheid’. The Palestinian people have been disfranchised at three levels including banishment, occupation, and second-class citizenship through a system of oppression very similar to the laws passed by the South African apartheid regime.

Palestine over the last 2000 years was the ‘homeland’ of the Palestinians, the original descendants of the Canaanites, Jews and Arabs (preceding and following Islam). Even during the British mandate they were considered as a self governing political society, but it seems people are quick to question their right for self-determination (and not an empty shell of a symbolic Palestine state or an Arab Bantustan). You have to ask yourself Paul how this could happen in such a short period of time? And don’t use terrorism as an excuse as both sides are guilty of perpetuating this heinous act against each other, neither side holds a monopoly on belligerence.

Paul the Peace Processes are a farce, it’s true the Palestinians rejected Israel’s version of the two-state solution, but it’s not well documented that Israel rejected the unprecedented two-state solution put forward by the Palestinians (or the PLO I should say as they no longer a representative body), which outlined a state of Israel incorporating some land captured in 1967 and including a very large majority of its settlers; the largest Jewish Jerusalem in the city’s history; preservation of Israel’s demographic balance between Jews and Arabs; & security guaranteed by a US-led international presence. The accords being offered to the Palestinians is nothing but a cruel mockery of the hopes of everyday people that have suffered more than enough. Arundhati Roy poignantly refers to it as a paradigm between power and powerlessness and that couldn't be closer to the truth.

Wonder why PaulL seems to have a different view of history than the history books. The only one in history that ordered such, was Hitler?

Cheers - BB

Earthrise,

False indignation? You really are a joke.

1130 Israelis killed by Palestinian terrorists/bombers between September 2000 and May 2006. Nearly 10,000 injured. Almost all of these people were civilians, as they are the terrorists’ favourite target.

20/11/2000 A roadside bomb exploded at 7:30 in the morning alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, were killed and 9 others, including 5 children, were injured, 5 of them seriously.

1/06/ 2001 - 21 people were killed and 120 wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday, June 1, while standing in a large group of teenagers waiting to enter the disco.

21/032002 - Three people were killed and 86 injured, 3 of them seriously, in a suicide bombing on King George Street in the center of Jerusalem. The terrorist detonated the bomb, packed with metal spikes and nails, in the center of a crowd of shoppers

This is three examples from among hundreds since 2000.

It is clear that there has been much death and injury on both sides. The difference is that the Israeli policy is not to target civilians. Your contention that the Israeli gov’t is assassinating peace activists and other innocent civilians is a clear example of your bias. Whilst I am sure such events have occurred, to pretend that the Israeli gov’t is behind them is pure propoganda. Individual Israeli soldiers have definitely committed acts of murder and mostly they are caught and punished.

As for the idiot peace protesters who stand between the warring sides, they take their life in their own hands and I have no sympathy for them. They knew what they were getting in to.

If you can’t see the difference between a suicide bomber looking the children in the eye before he deliberately blows up their bus and an Air Force pilot who when attempting to kill a terrorist hiding behind his community, kills innocents instead, then you are braindead

Yes Paul your numbers are correct, 2648 civilians post occupation have indeed been killed, mostly from terrorist attacks according to the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but why did you choose to omit Palestinian deaths?

According to UN Population Division, and UNHCR and UNICEF data, the total number of avoidable Palestinian deaths (so called collateral) since the beginning of the occupation in Occupied Palestinian Territory now total around 300,000 with under-5 infant deaths averaging around 200,000; Palestinian refugees now total about 7 million.

It’s obvious you’re the one who can’t tell the difference between a suicide bomber and an Air Force pilot…

Earthrise,

“Genocide is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people”

Then why is the Palestinian population rising so dramatically?

According to the UN, the total Palestinian population in all the disputed territories (they include Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem) was 1,006,000 in 1950 growing to 2,152,000 in 1990.

In Gaza alone, the population increased from 731,000 in July 1994 to 1,324,991 in 2004 - a increase of 81 percent - the growth rate, 3.8 percent, one of the highest in the world.

The Palestinian population has continued to grow exponentially; being estimated in 2004 at more than 3.6 million.

Anthony Cordesman attributes this massive population increase, within all disputed territories, to “improvements in income and health services” implemented by Israel. (Anthony Cordesman, “From Peace to War: Land for Peace, or Settlements for War.” DC Center for Strategic and International Studies, August 15, 2003: pp,12-13)

Gaza has five universities and two tertiary academies, the West Bank has seven universities and three tertiary academies. Add to this another six education/research institutes. I would say that Palestinian culture, language, national feelings, religion, etc, are not only alive, but thriving.

Killing of crops and orchids (sic)?

Earthrise, you further state: “the ultimate plan of Israel is to assume sovereignty over most of the West Bank through settlement.” Can you provide documented evidence of this? Undoubtedly, if Israel still occupied Gaza, you would have added this territory as well. But Israel removed all its settlements - didn’t it.

Danielle, I am wondering, wondering, and wondering at reasons you waste a time in attempts to clarify more more more more more more more sins Israel (read: the Jews worldwide) seemingly caused towards the Arabs of Palestine-outside-Israel.

Today a PA premier, a known terrorist of HAMAS, mentored a world clearly, that any Jewish, non-Muslim civilian to be killed in order to push a globe into terrorists demands of a delusive restitution of Palestine as Arabs-only political entity.

And in Melbourne, local Muslims demonstratively smoke in trains / at underground stations under noses of in-this-case-importent-police-if-any-at-all and not only accuse in racism anyone telling them politely of government-imposed penalties for this offence but mount a voice to attract foreign students with tells of being abused by this informing: “We are Australians TOO and we know what we do”.

Welcome to New Gaza of Australia, pro-Hamas Forum participants!

MichaelK,

I doubt very much if any writers here are pro-Hamas. The Arab League has told Hamas to recognise Israel - a very decisive request.

It surprises me not at all, what Hamas are saying about Jews... and ad nauseum. But look what they say about Fatah and Palestinians on the West Bank. They mutually detest each other. Don't forget that Hamas as readily kill their own people who disagree with them, as they would Israelis. Palestinians in Gaza were desperately trying to get out. Hamas have sworn to bring Sharia law to every home.

No one denies that the Palestinian have a right to security and well-being - and especially a state of their own. But peace will not come to them whilst they are under the fist of thugs. You must have heard of Wallid Shoebat an extremely brave man, who is also an ex-terrorist. Here are pictures of “Palestinian” justice; and also a youtube message by him. What do you think would happen if he went back to Palestine?

http://www.shoebat.com/palestinian_justice.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJS4XYJ5w5Q

Hi Danielle,

You missed the point about genocide, it does not have to be the mass extermination of a people. Israel is not going to put out a white paper outlining how it is going to illegally annex the West Bank, ridiculous. They are doing it by making the lives of native Palestinians so difficult, they will choose to transfer themselves to another country. During the second Intifada, Israel routinely broke into schools and cultural centres and destroyed everything, computers, academic records, attempting to wipe out Palestinian nationalism. How can Palestinian children go to exams, when the Separation Wall, fixed and random roadblocks prevent students from reaching exams? And these same obstacles makes Palestinian economic recovery impossible, not including the forced starvation of the whole of Gaza. Everyone except the apologists knows Israel intends to keep the West Bank, your insinuation that they are not is insulting.

The idea that Israel has improved the health of Palestinians, accounting for their rise in birthrates, would be laughable, if it wasn't so tragically wrong. All over the world, high birthrates are linked to poverty, which is the state Israel keeps the Palestinian people in. It is a testament to the strengths and resilience of the Palestinian people that they can still bring children into the world, raise them under the worst conditions and still grow their population. This alone is the death of Zionism, unlike the American Indian, or the Australian Aborigine, they outnumber their oppressors. Here is the basis of the growing anti-apartheid movement that will bring Zionism to its overdue end.

All Palestine lacks is a Mandella/Gandhi. Who knows how many the Israelis have murdered? The thing Israel fears the most is peace.

Earthrise

The far-left are having a real field day at the moment with the term ‘genocide’. I wonder what you call the real genocide in Rwanda and Bosnia/Kosovo. Or do you commit the appalling disservice to the peoples of those countries by not making any distinction.

“The death toll, both military and civilian, of the entire conflict in 2000-2007 is estimated to be over 4200 Palestinians and over 1000 Israelis. Between September 2000 and January 2005, 69 percent of Israeli fatalities were male, while over 95 percent of the Palestinian fatalities were male. To date 63 foreign citizens have been killed (53 by Palestinians, and 10 by Israeli security forces).”

You said “Everyone except the apologists knows Israel intends to keep the West Bank, your insinuation that they are not is insulting.”
And someone presciently replied that up until 2005 you would have argued that Israel intended to keep the Gaza Strip as well. Israel has a history of giving back the land it has won. When Egypt finally accepted Israel’s right to exist and made peace the Israelis handed back the Sinai. And after the relative success of the Sharm el-Sheikh Summit the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. At Camp David in 2000 Barak offered 91% of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip plus a capital in Eastern Jerusalem. All that he asked in return was that the Palestinians first dismantle their terror organisations.

So Israel is stopping all children from going to exams? They are smashing all the schools? And ‘cultural centres’ Do you actually have a clue what a Palestinians cultural centre is? Because if you think that a community centre is the place where culture resides you really are grasping at straws. Cultural centres are almost invariably recruiting and operations centres for local militants. This is typical, insurgent type, tactics and was a favourite of the IRA and UVF etc.

Your complete unwillingness to accept that Palestinian hardships are exacerbated by the extremist policies of their leaders shows how biased you really are.

Paul.l,

You are using the Gaza withdrawal exactly as Israel intended, to cover the annexation of the West Bank. Israel never intended to keep Gaza, it is not part of what Israel sees as its historical homeland. They only held onto it as a bargaining chip in future negotiations. Negotiations which never took place, as Hamas made the place impossible to suppress. Sharon was forced to abandon it, like South Lebanon, and all he got was the flimsy cover story you are peddling now. And of course you are not saying Gaza is now a free, sovereign entity. It is an open air prison, where Israel has closed the borders, sea and airspace and is staving the people into submission. The real danger of Gaza was the high birthrate, which threatened to expose the undemocratic nature of the Zionist racist State.

Of course all Palestinian civilians are militants and terrorists, after you kill them. They don't have dance companies, artist communities, music halls and theatres, do they?. People under oppression tend to be more artistic, they have more pain to write from. Just think of the African Americans; Blues, Rock and Roll and Rap. Israel cannot have Palestinan art perpetuating their 'non-existent' culture, and risk it leaking to the world to garner support for their cause.

Your complete unwillingness to accept that Palestinian hardships are caused by the extremist policies of the Israeli State shows how morally bankrupt you really are.

"IDF: 3 children killed in Gaza Tuesday were just playing tag"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/899414.html

Shame on you for defending this.

This discussion delights me definitely.

If one was supportive to independent state for the Arabs of Palestine, this person should definitely comprehend data provided on these pages and think of Palestinian autonomies under Jordanian/Egyptian protectorate as it already existed prior to establishing FATAH in 1964 and going on a war-67 to annihilate the Jewish State.

Paul.L, c'mon now stop with the silver bullets. The interpretation of genocide doesn't simply equate to "the mass production of corpses" your referencing the term out of context. Ultimately it’s a political means to an ideological end, where under the Geneva Convention it’s stated in article II;

“…genocide in the means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, such as:
a) killing members of the group;
b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part;
d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

Now note that this definition implies three things:
- Genocide is not necessarily total destruction of the group but can indeed be in part;
- Four of the five criteria do not entail killing per se but instead emphasise more often than not forms of physical/cultural disruption; and
- Violation of any of the criteria stipulated is demonstrably genocide

Think about it for a second mate, in 1958, 45% of all settlements in Palestine disappeared after the creation of the Israeli state, 433 out of the 807 of the villages were left standing, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been killed since occupation. This was carried out through either Israeli terror (massacres, the dynamiting of whole villages, etc), or through a system of Laws established to expropriate Arab lands (The Defense Emergency Regulations, Emergency Security Zone Regulations, Emergency Regulations (cultivation of Waste Lands) ordinance, & the Absentee Property Law), go on look them up!.

It's easy to hemorrhage figures Paul but you fail to make the connection to any historical consequence. Machiavelli on drugs! I’m not repudiating the existence of a Jewish state but what’s occurring is simply a product of their own actions. The biggest irony is that the specific article in the Geneva Convention arose out of the tragic experience of the Jews in Germany

I note you are unwilling to discuss any of the evidence I have provided.

So lets talk about the evidence you have provided.

IDF:3 children killed in Gaza Tuesday were just playing tag"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/899414.html

What you so conveniently left out was that these children were ‘playing’ next to a rocket launcher used to fire rockets into Israel. Israel only had aerial photographs of the area, so determining whether the people approaching the launcher were children was impossible. What normal person allows their children to play near rocket launchers anyway?

This is the problem that always comes up when an insurgent group hides behind the civilian population. Besides, the Palestinians have a history of using children to move weapons and bombs because they know the Israelis are loathe to attack them.

As a democratic society, Israeli newspapers are free to report on this awful incident. As your hyperlink shows. The same could not be said for the Palestinians. Hamas have no time for any of these freedoms.

I suppose Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt because the Egyptians forced them to as well? Israel never had territorial ambition in South Lebanon. They were forced to attack after numerous incursions by the Iranian funded Hezbollah terror organization.

Your contention that Israel is suppressing Palestinian arts is petty and in the end, just ridiculous. You have no evidence for it at all.

If, as you say, Israel is building a wall to suppress the Palestinians, why have they left 90% of the West Bank on the Palestinian side? This leaves large settler communities on the wrong side of the fence.

Pro-settler opponents claim that the barrier is a sly attempt to artificially create a border that excludes the settlers, creating "facts on the ground" that justify the mass dismantlement of hundreds of settlements and displacement of over 100,000 Jews from the land they claim as their biblical homeland.

I have already provided links detailing deliberate palestinian attacks on schoolbuses. How can you defend that?

Shame on you for distorting the facts and using such a tragic event to score points

Earthrise,

Do you really know what national identity and culture mean. Don't you think you are being reactionary.

Traditional Palestinian culture/identity was necessarily restrictive - old forms of social organisation depended upon traditional heirachies such as clanship, family, and local noteables - and, especially, absence of wormen. This has now have been replaced with public theatre, arts and music, which includes men and women, young and old.

Perhaps you wish Palestinians to return to their rigid and traditional clanship identity; hardly conducive to a vital developing and all-embracing national culture

The arts in Palestine are flourishing - music, literature, theatre, visual arts. These are also exported to Europe, Canada and the USA. This addresses their life - all arts, good art, reflects the society in which they live.

Restrictions are those of self-censorship and determined by the ruling parties under which they live. Under an organisation such as Hamas, a gun to the head is a great persuader.

PNT, Palestinian National Theatre, established in 1984, has a more informative and sophisticated site than we see within mainstream theatre in this country. Go to their links site and then state that Palestinain culture is being wiped out - and these are just a handful of cultural sites.

http://www.pnt-pal.org/links.php

The Palestinian theatre company, Al-Kasaba theatre, established 1970; opened at a Ramallah venue, travelling across the West Bank. They performed at London's Young Vic theatre and Royal Court theatre, also at Long Wharf Theater in New Haven, USA.

"The image of Palestinians," George Ibrahim, its founder, told his US crowd, "especially in America, is that of terrorists. But we are human beings. We are artists. And this is our life."

Six American playwrights including Kia Corthron, Tony Kushner, Robert O'Hara, Betty Shamieh met with Palestinian theatre artists and playwrights - in both Gaza and the West Bank (prior to Hamas’ devastation of Gaza, of course).

INAD Theatre, established in 1987, in the West Bank town of Beit Jala, is registered with the Palestinian Ministry of Culture as a non-profit Center for Theatre and Arts.

cont ...

Earthrise,

What is the solution you are proposing?

Danielle- Dont blame the West for their perception of muslims as terrorists. Blame your fellow extremist muslims for that.

The PAC, Popular Arts Centre, the leading cultural centre in the West Bank, was founded in 1987, its initial impetus was a forum for local dance groups, musicians and artistcs. They organize annual, music and dance festivals.

Haifa University has a resident Palestinian Theatre company, Al Haqawatti.

Palestinian theatre has been discussed in such prestigeous journals as Theatre Journal, and Contemporary Theatre Review .

In Wiki, Palestinian writers 31 pages, Australian 5.

Need I continue ...

An observation: Compare Palestinian arts will the appalling state of Australian arts in every field, and noteably theatre. Where are our current wave of playwrights? It appears it is we who are experiencing a cultural identity crisis in the arts, not the Palestinians.

Everyone would welcome a Ghandi or Mandella in Palestine - then both Israel and a new state of Palestine would live side by side in peace. I notice the irony in your comment - you state “Palestine lacks”. This is the crux of the matter - the insanity of leaderships within the Palestinian peoples, leaderships who are all about self advancement and power; not about the people themseves.

George Ibrahim stated, the average Palestinian is not a terorrist; but they are being exploited and sacrificed by terrorist organisations, organisations from which Israel has every right to defend itself.

You, and others, need to explore the psychology of terrorism.

Terrorists as willingly kill their own people as their perceived enemy; if innocents (on their side) are killed as a consequence of terrorist actions - its happily exploited as propoganda - the more innocents killed in the line of fire, the more celebratiom.

Knowing Israeli policy is not to target civilians, the Hamas used civilians as shields when striking at Israel. They aired this on TV. Consequence - the Israelis aborted a retalitory strike.

Sharkfin,

I lived in a multi-cultural/racial Muslim society for many years. The average, kind-hearted, Muslim is as much a victim of terrorist activies as we are -perhaps more so. In the West Bank and Gaza, they experience covert and overt terrorism by their leadership, daily.

Yazoo,

It is a pretty simple solution, which has been there for quite some time. In 2002, the Arab League offered Israel what Ben Gurion couldn't have dreamed of, a peace treaty between Israel and the Arab world, including full normalisation and trade. All Israel has to do is pull back to the international border (the Green Line), share Jerusalem as their capital and compensate the refugees caused by the creation of Israel. It was re-affirmed last year by the Saudis, it is everything Israel says she wants. Except what they don't say they want.

Of course they really want to keep the West Bank. They want the Jordan Valley for defence, and more importantly, control over the water in the River Jordan. But mainly they want all those places in the Bible (Judea and Sumeria), which inconveniently millions of Palestinians have lived on for thousands of years. If Israel truly wanted peace, it is there on the table.

I'm not naive enough to think this will mean total peace in Palestine. Israel will still be seen by a tiny minority as a Crusader Kingdom, and the Israelis' European invaders. They will face criminal attacks, as we all face, by extremists. The difference is Israel will be a law-abiding nation holding the moral high ground, and no one will deny them their right to defend themselves. All they defend at the moment is their ill-begotten gain stolen in 1967, a devastating Occupation and the murder and subjugation of a whole people.

International legitimacy is the only thing that can protect Israel in the medium to long term. Once America's star sets, no-one will lift a finger to defend the undefendable Occupation. Nothing could save the South African regime, not even the support of Israel and the US. Israel is next unless she joins the family of nations and gives back her stolen property, and stops brutalising others.

For those who live by the sword will surely die on it.

Nice deflection guys,

But you can't escape my point. Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people by the UN definition. They periodically destroy Palestinian cultural and academic centres (most recently during Intifada II), while their Separation Wall, fixed checkpoints and roving roadblocks make cultural, economic and academic life extremely difficult. Destroying crops and homes is another method of making life for the Palestinians so unbearable, they will 'self-transfer' (eg. become refugees), leaving the West Bank in Israel's greedy hands. This gives you some idea of the fine line Israel draws, they'd love to pile all these pesky Palestinians into cattle trucks and send them off to Jordan. But they are doing all they can without tipping international opinion finally against them. Once this margin starts to narrow further, watch out.

Everything about the Occupation is illegal. They are in breach of multiple UN resolutions, and countless General Assembly motions, demanding they withdraw back to the pre-67 borders. The Separation Wall is illegal in international law. The Occupation breaches Article three and four of the Geneva Conventions every day, on the duty of the Occupier to the Occupied. It is very difficult to run a legal occupation, especially for forty years. In a world with real global law, the Occupation would not have lasted ten minutes. This is why the US, Israel (and Australia) constantly undermines the UN. Their aims cannot be achieved though international law, so they must be a law unto themselves.

Time is running out though, and the wheel is coming around.

Earthrise,

Don’t let a little thing like the FACTS get in the way of a great story. We can’t escape your point? You use emotion where you have no evidence.

You claim Israelis are committing genocide by destroying Palestinian culture. We provide some evidence that you are clearly wrong about this and you call it a deflection.

I give you actual figures on violent deaths and you start talking about economics.

The Israelis offered the Palestinians 94% of the west bank, all of the Gaza strip plus a capital in east Jerusalem at Camp David in 2000. It was conditional on Arafat dismantling the terror organizations, something he was unwilling to do. The Arab League doesn’t speak for the Palestinians, by the way.

All you need do is look at the charters of Hamas and Hezbollah to see that they are not interested in a two state solution. They refuse the possibility of giving up ANY of Palestine.

The separation wall is almost entirely built upon the original green line. And it leaves 100,000 Jews on the wrong side of the line. So either the wall is a land grab, that leaves out 95% of Arab Palestine. Or it is temporary and will be pulled down when the violence ends. Which is it?

Lets have a look at your use of hyperbole in your last two posts. Crusader, unbearable,ill-begotten gain, stolen, devastating, murder and subjugation, undefendable Occupation, stolen property, brutalizing, live by the sword, genocide, Separation Wall, 'self-transfer', Israel's greedy hands, Occupation is illegal, pesky Palestinians, cattle trucks, law unto themselves, Time is running out.

Maybe you could make your point without all the highly emotional terms, but I sincerely doubt it.

You talk about South Africa and apartheid but everyone knows that the only realistic solution is two states. Once Palestinians stop their campaign of terror for good, I and many others would throw our full support behind their claim to all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I do not support the settlers and, despite your claims, neither do large section of the Israeli public.

I've had my fun,

But this is getting boring. I rarely bother to 'debate' Zionists, because like religious fanatics, they cannot use logic and reason or risk exposing their corrupt worldview. While they are defending the indefensible, they cannot rely on legal or moral argument, it works against them. All they have is misinformation and spin, propaganda and doublespeak. The truth is not on their side.

It is easy to see. I can say Hamas is a threat to the Palestinian cause, I can say Fatah is an even bigger threat (Quislings that they are), and that Islamic extremists are damaging international efforts to find a just solution. But you will never hear Zionist say the Occupation is wrong, illegal, immoral and a disgusting blight on our world. You won't hear Zionists say that all the West Bank must be given back to the pre-67 line. You won't hear Zionists say that the Occupation is genocide by UN definitions, that Israel is in breach of Article 3 and 4 of the Geneva Convention and that Israel is living in defiance of many UN resolutions.

I made this very clear from the outset, I am a supporter of Israel behind the 67 border. Once she retreats behind this legal border, I change sides overnight. A legal Israel will rally behind her the weight of the world against Muslim extremists. But while Israel continues to hold onto her ill-begotten gains, it only serves to muddy the argument and divide international, and Muslim, moderate opinion. A handful of criminals is not a threat, but a mass movement in opposition to Israel's occupation provides unintentional cover for extremists, and serves to recruit more to their cause. If you want to catch these fish, you need to drain the pond. The pond is Israel's Occupation, remove that and these criminals are exposed for all to see. Israel's Occupation, with US protection, only gives terrorists increased legitimacy in the eyes of the world.

Prove them wrong, I dare you, leave the Occupied Territories. The longer you stay, the more terrorists you create.

Keep up your logical point of view, Earthrise. It fits in with the fact that the Age of Reason and the Age of Enlightenment was to be still buggered up by the fairy story of the Promised Land - and with humanities' inborn greed Reason and Enlightenment were still stuffed up with the advent of colonialism as part of competition and the natural greed and growth of the more powerful nations.

Part of this of course, has been our attempt to capture the hearts and minds of the Middle East Arabs with the message of the American Way, still pushed so much by Georgy Boy Dubya with God Talk and missile diplomacy.

As many Britishers still believe, as well as many Israelis themselves, for the good of Middle East peace, the Jews would have been better allowed to be inflitrated into both the United States and what was still called the British Commonwealth of Nations.

Virtually in Israel where the Arabs will still be demanding their 1500 year old rights for many years to come, the highly talented Jews would be far better to have been granted posterity among what other more wandering Jews have helped to manufacture - Western democracy.

However, without crippling Islamic nations such as Iran, and causing a billion more Islamic enemies throughout the world, a reborn Jewish Israel can never be a peaceful possibility.

So true earthrise,
Its all too easy to lap up the realpolitik influenced claptrap perpetuated by biased google articles, but through a moral humanist prism things just don't add up. thanks for the transparency

“For those who live by the sword will surely die on it” (Posted by Earthrise, Monday, 3 September 2007 1:11:03 AM) – perhaps, it is a reference to toddlers in a kindergarden and pupils at local Sderot school being “kassammed” once again at the moment new school day started.

And not so much one could hear from local Australian media of it at all.

Jews have lived on the West Bank ( Judea and Samaria) since pre-Islamic times. The only time they were prohibited to do so was during Jordan's rule 1948-1967, which was also contrary to the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the UN, and which not only provided for the establishment of a Jewish state, but also encouraged close settlement by Jews on the land including Judea and Samaria.

Prominent Jurists such as Stephen Schwebel, formerly President of the International Court of Justice, notes that a country acting in self-defence may seize and occupy territory when necessary to protect itself. Schwebel also confirms that a state may require, as a condition for its withdrawl, security measures designed to ensure its citizens are not menaced again from that territory.
(American Journal of International Law, April 1970: pp.345-346)

Eugene Rostow, former Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, the Johnson’ Administration, stated that Resolution 242 gives Israel legal right to be in the West Bank. The resolution “allows Israel to administer the territors” it won in 1967 “until a just and lasting peace in the Middle East “is achieved.
(New Republic, October 21,1991: p.14)

Settlements (though seen by many as undesirable, myself included) have never been an obstacle to peace.

cont ...

From 1947-1967 when Jews were forbidden to live on the West Bank, Arabs refused to make peace with Israel.

From 1967-1977 when the Labour Party established a few strategic settlements in the territories, yet again Arabs were unwilling to negotiate peace with Israel.

In 1977, when the Likkud government, who were committed to establishing more settlements, Egyptian President Sadat signed a peace treaty with Israel. This also witnessed removal of settlements in Sinai as part of this agreement.

In 1978, Israel froze settlement building for 3 months, hoping other Arabs would join the Camp David peace process. But non did.

In 1994 when Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel, settlements were not an issue.

Whilst Jewish settlements grew under the Labor goverment government between1992 and 1996, this did not prevent Palestinians signing the Oslo accord 1993, and Oslo 2 agreement.

In 2000 Ehud Barak offered to dismantle dozens of settlements, but the Palestinians still would not agree to ending the conflict.

In August 2005, Israel evacuated all settlements in the Gaza Strip and four in Northern Samaria, yet terror attacks continue.

These terrorities never legally belonged to either Joran, Egypt or the Palestinians, who were never the sovereign authority in any part of Palestine. Professor Rostow further states: “The Jewish right of settlement in the area is equivalent in every way to the right of the local population to live there.”
(American Journal of International Law, 1990, vol.84: p.72)

As a matter of policy, Israel does not requesition private land for the establishment of settlements. When housing construction is allowed on private land, it has to be determined that it is not violating private rights, and that no settlements displace Arabs living in the territory.

The problem is, Danielle, the Jews, though religous, different to the Arabs, were also interested very much in Scientific Reasoning, as proven by the fact that over half the students attending the Great Library of Alexandria were Jews.

It was also Jewish intellect which introduced early capitalism to the West.

It is also the fact that the earlier kernel of the Middle East intelligentsia which had accepted Socratic Reasoning also accepted Islamic teachings, but the intelligentsia was eventually smothered by Islamic Mullahs as the West itself gained progress through the very intellect that Islam threw out.

As an Iranian female judge has mentioned, we do need to rediscover Hellenistic Reasoning, but we have been treated so harshly by the West, we prefer not to find it by means of the American Way.

As one who has made a strong study of such problems, would agree that the presence of an intellectually-minded Israel in just a tiny portion of the Middle East, will never be the way to find peace in a Middle East populated mostly by Islamic fundamentalists.

And certainly in this so-called enlightened day and age, we have no right to solve this problem with missile diplomacy - possibly nuclear.

Earthrise

Do you think if you call me a Zionist often enough it might actually become true? It seems so.

Your assertion that you rarely debate so called ‘Zionists’ is right on the money, since you have made no attempts to address any of the counterpoints I and others have made.

I have previously described your use of hyperbole in making your case, something it is clear you could not do in a reasoned manner. You chose not to defend this, for good reason. ‘Polemic’ is a much better term for what you are attempting in your posts, since by emotion and repetition you seek to hide the logical weaknesses of your case.

I will say again, though I have little hope it will get through, that I also believe Israel has no right to keep the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Once the Palestinians commit to peaceful means in order to achieve their objectives I would fully support the return of their land. So it is fairly clear that we are not all that far apart, although I know you can’t bring yourself to see this.

The problem with your argument that Israel needs to make the first move is that it will only be seen as a victory for Hamas and other terror organizations, strengthening their hand and undoubtedly encouraging them in their belief that they can drive ALL Jews from the Middle East. You know this yourself. All you have to do is read Hamas’s charter, or listen to Arab leaders like Ahmedinejad. They clearly and loudly say “ NO NEGOTIATION WITH ISRAEL, EVER” This isn’t a ‘Zionist fantasy’. After withdrawing from the Gaza Strip, did Palestinian violence reduce? NO it did not. If anything, there is more violence from that area.

Am I misquoting them or mistaking their aims? If I am, please provide me some evidence

Bushbred,

Instead of making more obtuse comments could you please explain what you mean when you say” However, without crippling Islamic nations such as Iran, and causing a billion more Islamic enemies throughout the world, a reborn Jewish Israel can never be a peaceful possibility”

Because it seems to me that you are suggesting that Iran will destroy Israel if the Americans don’t deal with them first. This is exactly the argument that the Neo-Cons are using at the moment. Surely you are aware of this.

It of course neglects Israel obvious ability to punch well above its weight in terms of military power. Any confrontation between Arab countries and Israel will be a contest of equals.

As a historian you are welcome to mull over what might have been although such speculation is, in my opinion, pointless. The Jews didn’t all migrate to the West. The problem is what we do now.

It’s fascinating that you cannot abide George Bush’s limited Christianity, yet you make no mention of the real theocrats, who are far more dangerous and totally undemocratic.

How exactly is it a problem that the Jews are interested in Scientific Reasoning? Or Capitalism?

How is an Islamic theocracy compatible with Hellenistic reasoning in the modern world?

Your attempt to link any US action in Iran with the defence of Israel, completely ignores the current actions of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards with their Iraqi proxies making direct attacks on US and Iraqi serviceman and civilians in Iraq. Nor does it acknowledge Iran’s quest for nuclear weapons which threatens far more than just Israeli interests in the Middle East. Most of Iran’s Arab neighbours are also rightly concerned by Iran’s nuclear ambitions.

It seems clear to me you deny Israel’s right to exist at all, whether behind the 1967 borders or not. How do you reconcile this stand with the League of Nations and UN resolutions in support of Israel’s right to exist? Or is democracy only valid when it supports your prejudices?

Paull, can you explain to us why you think that Israel has a right to exist whereas apparently you don't seem to think that the Palestinians have a right to have a country of their own.

David

A ground stone of all these hamases is annihilating of a Jewish state in Palestine (see Al-Jazeera's foruma, for instance).

Following up this notion, any short-term agreement is possible to reach a final solution locally.

Therefore, establishing an Arab-Palestinian entity seen by many to great extent both resolving the internal Israeli problems and allowing an appropriate response towards islamists under umbrella of so-called international law.

The Jews and Israel are always scapegoats for fat cats of any religion neighboring.

That is why presence of any agreement has nothing to do with Israeli military capabilities in the future.

There also seems to be a misconception out there that all Palestinians or indeed the inhabitants of all Middle Eastern Countries except Israel are Muslims. This is absolutely not true. I'm not sure what the mix is, but there is certainly a significant number of Christians plus others.

David

Well,

As Paul.l is not a Zionist, it seems we can talk. And as he has come down from his corresponding pole, so shall I. He has stated he 'believe(s) Israel has no right to keep the West Bank and the Gaza Strip', so we have common ground. I much prefer this kind of discussion.

Israel has to make the first move, because Israel made the first move in occupying modern Palestine in 1967. The Occupation is the original sin, so the Palestinians need to see Israel pull out to start rebuilding the trust. I understand how Hamas and others will see this, but this is Israel's doing and she must wear it. It will be seen as a victory, and it will be. A victory for justice and international law.

As I've said, Israel's only path to permanence is regaining the moral and legal high ground. By ending the Occupation, and siging the Arab Peace Accord, she regains international legitimacy. What this does to Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other violent groups is to deny them any form of legitimacy. Resisting the occupation is legally and morally correct, and while I abhor their tactics, they have the right; the Israeli occupation is much worse. Drain the pond my friend, and then catch the fish.

Once Israel ends the Occupation, sets a legal border and rejoins the family of nations, as I said, I change sides overnight. If Hamas then attacks a legal nation, Israel has every right to go in and smash that hornet's nest. If they do it now, they are only perpetuating the Occupation. Afterwards, they would be a sovereign nation defending their people, and no-one would deny them their right.

As much as I dislike traitorous Fatah, give Abbas everything. Turn the West Bank over to him (all of it) with Jordanian help. Then Hamas would be totally isolated, denied their base as the resistance, and they will fold.

America won’t let this happen, peace in the Middle East is not in their interest.

Charity starts at home. Sin is bowing to demands for some altering a direction a separation wall is being built the Israel Highest Court had demonstrated rather than occupation of territories never belonging to any Palestine/Arafatia but a nest of murderers-terrorists not much better treating the Arabs-Christians traditionally feeling resettlement towards the Jews-“Christ killers”.

And Arabic Accord offered recently, mentioned above is as much practical and livable as an exchange of messages on this page for establishing peaceful Jewish-Arabian co-existence - and in Palestine.

A false perception exists that Israeli Jews are European. This is wrong. The majority of Israeli Jews are Middle Eastern, originating from those who were expelled from most of the Arab States after the establishment of Israel. Not only was it deemed criminal to be Jewish - and remains so to this day, but the governments also confiscated private homes, businesses, public hospitals, schools, synagogues, and other public centres belonging to Jews. Many Jews were allowed to take little more than the shirts on their backs. These Jews were the same people who had always been a presence in the Middle East.

Egypt’s delegate told the UN General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries would be jeopardized by partition”
(New York Times, November 25, 1947)

... and so it came to pass.

The number of Jews fleeing Arab countries for Israel in the years following Israel’s independence was nearly double the number of Arabs leaving Palestine. Of the 820,000 Jewish refugees between 1948 and 1972, 586,000 were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions
(A. Avneri, The Claim of Dispossession, 1984, p. 276)

Israel has consequently maintained that any agreement to compensate the Palestinian refugees must also include Arab reparations for Jewish refugees. To this day, the Arab States have refused to pay anything to the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were forced to abandon their property before fleeing those countries. Through 2005, at least 115 of the 774 UN General Assembly resolutions on the Middle East conflict (15 percent) referred directly to Palestinian refugees. Not one mentioned the Jewish refugees from Arab countries.
(Jerusalem Post, December 4, 2003).

Regarding Wiki research about Israel. Having queried an item which appeared on their site, I was informed:

“The Wikipedia quotes are an example of the weakness of this open source; it can be edited by anyone. Many anti-Israeli groups manipulate this information online trying to re-write history”

Therefore, any information appearing on Wiki regarding Israel has to be treated with suspicion. This would need cross checking with other references, preferably with primary sources - indeed normal procedure with any material, whatever its source.

I am not quite sure what you imply but “an intellectually-minded Israel” compared with other Islamic peoples in the Middle East. Yes, indeed Islamic fundamentalist/terrorist groups are a grave problem to Israel, but so are they to other Muslims. However, Arab countries are not without intellectuals and writers, etc. who condemn the activities of these maniacs, whilst also supporting Israel.

However, Bushred, as Arab countries are among the most wealthiest in the world, but also are among those with the highest level of iliteracy, I agree this can cause a problem if the majority can be swayed with propoganda. I believe that a series based on the fallacious “Protocals of the Wisdom of Elders” has been shown in some Arab states. As most know the original was a satire by Joly about Bonoparte’s ambitions, devoid of any content regarding Jews. This has since been adopted, altered and added to with fabrications by Russia’s police earlier in the 20th century, and by every other anti-semitic lunatic.

As to non-Arab Iran, do check the following site established by dissidents. This will provide an idea of what Iranian intellectuals and academics are saying about their country’s regime, and terrorism, whilst giving their whole hearted support of Israel.
http://www.activistchat.com/

Earthrise

I would deny that Israel made the first move. The 1948 and 1967 wars were both fought, for the most part, on Israeli soil. I.e. Israel WAS invaded. Not the other way around.

With Arab gov’ts across the Middle East committed to Israel’s destruction, Israel decided to take a strategic buffer, which unfortunately also coincided with Zionists ambitions in Judea and Samaria. That Israel needed a strategic buffer was amply demonstrated in 1973 when invading Arab armies drove significant distances into Israel proper.

Surely we can both acknowledge that these three wars weren’t about Israel’s possession of the West bank and Gaza strip. The Khartoum Arab Summit issued the "three no's," resolving that there would be "no peace, no recognition and no negotiation with Israel." These wars were fought over the EXISTENCE, or annihilation, of the Israeli state.

Unfortunately Israel still faces a majority of Arab countries who hold Israel’s destruction as an article of faith. To suggest that this mind set stems from the occupation is to deliberately misrepresent the facts. This sentiment predates the occupation and is likely to outlast it.

Israel must WIN the military confrontation for there to be any hope of peace. When I say win, what I mean is that before Palestinians get their land back they must commit to dismantling their terror organizations and recognize Israel’s right to exist. Otherwise Hamas etc will use the victory to rearm and refortify their new state for continued attacks on Israel. In this situation there would be no option, but for Israel to again invade.

Con’t

Con’t

I think what you are suggesting in regards to Abbas is a strong possibility. I think both the US and Israel are deliberately working towards strengthening the hand of Abbas and Fatah at the expense of Hamas. I don’t think that this is purely a divide and conquer operation. I think that if Abbas gains enough control, a settlement to create a new Palestinian state and an end to the violence is entirely possible.

I really don’t see what evidence you have to show America doesn’t want peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Especially considering the number of peace negotiations America has brokered over the years.

Military spending is not a realistic reason why America wouldn’t want peace in Israel/Palestine. Israel will still buy plenty of military hardware from the US.

America’s underlying strategic interest in the Middle East, after humanitarian concerns, is energy security. Energy security is enhanced by stability in the region, and peace between Israel and Palestine furthers that aim.

VK3AUU

Can you tell me what the significance is, of the Middle East not being completely Muslim? Because if you know of powerful Christian( or Hindu, Buddhist, other) groups making policy there, please let me know

Paul.l,

Israel's creation is a difficult one, as it was forced on the local population. Even though I see the injustice of this, I have to support international law through the imperfect UN. Israel in 1947 was significantly smaller than after the '48 war, the Arabs paid for their violence with Israel gaining more land. But this came with an act of genocide, the Nakba which terrorised hundreds of thousands of people into 'self-transferring' to other countries, where their descendants are still refugees. With the acceptance of Israel by the PLO, and the wider acceptance though the Arab Peace Accords, this ledger is balanced once a fair solution to the refugee problem is found.

What is not balanced is Israel's invasion and occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, this is the crime that must be addressed. The Settler project in the West Bank makes your claims that Israel plans to withdraw from all occupied land look ridiculous, at best. No-one but apologists believes Israel will withdraw without being forced to. There can be no peace or trust while Israel repeats Hitler's crimes of genocide, transferring populations and the annexation of land by force. They have already annexed the Golan during the 80's, a war crime of the highest calibre. There is no defence of this, and you perjure yourself by trying.

Trying to bring 1947-49 into the argument will only endanger the very existence of Israel, which many see in the world as immoral. I can accept it under international law, but if you push it too hard that will crack. You can't just stick to the Occupation, because it is beyond defending. My previous position is I believe the only moral and legal one, full withdraw, international recognition of Israel and then the right to defend her legally defined borders. Anything else is claiming Hitler was right.

“Even though I see the injustice of this, I have to support international law through the imperfect UN” –that is really a problem, I mean, the mean supporters of so-called international law on positions they employed for their Anglo-biological background only.

Perhaps, supposedly professional for their inherited biology only could hardly understand legality of “occupation” sustaining a national security of “aggressor” simply defending own state from “peaceful” neighbours looking forward to destroying a non-Muslim country before it was proclaimed even – and a legal deed for any (but the Jews as usual) according to an international law mentioned on these pages indeed.

No worries, Israel to be existing as just a dust of pokies to trace in the Islam Confederation of Southern Caliphate that is what to include a former Anglo-xenophobic colony of Australia.

Earthrise,

Israel has withdrawn its settlements from the Gaza.

At time time Israelis celebrate the anniversary of the independence, Palestinians mourn the establishment of Israel on their (al Nakba) Nakba Day. Had the Arab States accepted the partition of 1947, the State of Palestine would also be accepting its birthday. We are told that Palestinians object to the ‘occupation’ of territories caputured during the 6-Day War in 1967. If so, they should celebrate Nakba Day each June on the anniversary of the Arab defeat in that war. An odious comparison is that traffic is stopped and sirens of mouning wailed, mimicking the Isreali practice on Holocaust Remembrance Day.

The UN establishment of the State of Israel would have counted for nothing if nascent Israel hadn’t defended themselves against the massive Arab war- machine and won.

The UN Palestine Commission, not permitted by the Arabs nor by the British to implement the resolution, reported to the Security Council on February 16, that powerful Arab interests both within and outside were defying the resolution of the General Assembly.

Arabs took full responsibility for attacking Israel. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) invaded Israel. Azaam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League clearly declared their intentions: “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”

Israel was born from the spilt blood of its people.

Earthrise,

Perhaps you would like to state for which specific acts of genocide Israel is accountable.

cont

In the May 2-7 2005 poll conducted by the Jerusalem Media & Communication Centre found that 54% of Palestinians welcome a two state solution, however, whilst the PA place the establishment of Israel on a par with the Holocaust the prospects remain bleak.

Isn’t it about time that Palestinian leadership looked seriously at establishing the Palestinian State - and just got on with it. Good will demonstrated by the PA will go a long way to eleviating any perceived injustices.

Israel’s current population: 7 million

76% Jews;
20% Arab;
4% Druze, Baha’is, Circassians, and other ethnic groups.

Nonie Darwish, stated on Al-Arabiya TV on March 23, last:

“We should begin to view the Palestinian Arab cause in a different manner. For 58 yeas we have been fighting Israel... Enough, we must resolve this problem, because it hinders the progess of the Arab peoples ... we must be just and grant them security. There are five million of them, and we are 1.2 [billion] Muslims. What are we afraid of - five million Jews? We must welcome them so they can live in our midst ... we must stop the terrorism in Israel, and we must not encourage Hamas to say it wants to annihilate Israel. Ahmadinejad is not even an Arab - what does he have to do with Israel? Is he acting this way in order to unify his people?”

Rashid Khalidi, director of the Middle East Institute stated:

“It is time that Palestinian leaders looked at their own weaknesses instead of blaming everything on Zionism, imperialism, and other outside forces.”

Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza, said:

“officials with the mind-set of a banana republic are causing tremendous damage to the Palestinian cause.”

Danielle, what is more important-worldwide noise of factually discriminatorily applying the “international law” "Israel occupation" seemingly generated, or a commonsense approach, where launching kassam on an Israeli civil condominium should be given at least two in response non-discriminatorily?

The war of independence in 1948 resulted in huge numbers of Israelis being evicted from their homes as well The situation is much more akin to that which occurred during the creation of India/Pakistan. Just as Palestinians were ‘encouraged’ to leave Israel, Jews were ‘encouraged’ to leave their homes in Arab countries.

You have not yet made a comment on what you think the purpose of the separation wall is? Because the majority of settlements are on the Palestinian side of the wall. 100,000 Jews live in these settlements. It is either permanent, in which case Israel clearly intends to give back the vast majority of the West Bank back (90%). Or it is a non permanent defensive measure, which has had a significant effect on reducing terror attacks, and so cannot be described as a land grab.

It is so pathetic to compare Israel to Hitler. No one cares Hitler moved the Jews to Eastern Europe, What really makes it genocide, is that he killed 6,000,000 of them once they got there. I really thought you had given up on using the extremely emotive language. It serves no purpose except to polarise the debate again.

Which settler project are you referring to, because I don’t know of any new settlements being built. No doubt the settlers are making extensions to current settlements but this is not an indicator of gov’t policy on their long term future.

Annexation of the Golan is the easiest of all the occupations to defend. Syria, Israel’s most implacable enemy, used these heights to continuously shell Israeli villages inside Israel. Nothing Israel could do would stop it. There isn’t a clearer instance of self defence in the whole conflict.

Again I notice that you have not bothered to discuss even a quarter of my counterpoints. I will continue to try and address your arguments point by point but I would appreciate it if you could do the same.

MichaelK.

Many of us would like to read your posts as you have something to say. English is a very difficult language to learn, so perhaps if you could let us know what is your native tongue, someone would be sure to know its grammatical structure and apply it to your comments - thereby providing a linguistic guide for us to better understand what you are writing.

International Law is not anglo-centric law. The International Law Commission constitutes 34 members from different countries and any codification of international law is in accordance with article 13(1)(a) of the Charter of the United Nations and Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Regards

Earthrise

“There can be no peace or trust while Israel repeats Hitler's crimes of genocide”

Is this is your response to debate. The meanest intelligence - and I say this in the nicest possible way - can not compare Hitler’s genocide with Israel’s actions to protect its country.

Your argument is straight from the pages of the newspapers 'Al-Akhbar' and 'Al-Ahram' and others which, while stating Israel is emulating Hitler’s genocide, yet in a mind-numbing application of logic, also claim it never occurred. A favourite informed source on which they rely is the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” ... et tu?

The national Egyptian radio 'Sawat Al-Arab' 20, February, 2000 reported in all seriousness that the Israelis had set up “a crematorium according to the Nazi model against our Lebanese brothers.”

In much Arab media (apparently suffering from yellow press): Zionism-Jews-Israel are one entity, Jews made up the story of the Holocaust, they are determined to destroy the Palestinian people, undermine Islam and take control of the world. Heady stuff indeed. World domination by the entire Jewish population of 13 million world-wide.

Israel’s fence is unfortunately necessary, and just one of many around the world:

The US is building a fence to keep out illegal Mexican immigrants.

With European Union funding, Spain built a fence to separate enclaves, Ceuta and Melilla, from Morocco - preventing the poor from sub-Saharan Africa from entering Europe.

India has a 460-mile barrier in Kashmir to prevent infiltrations supported by Pakistan.

Apart from the massive 550-mile construction Saudi Arabis is building, it also has a 60-mile barrier along an undefined zone with Yemen.

Turkey has a barrier in the southern province, Alexandretta, in an area Syria claims it owns.

In Cyprus, the UN sponsored a security fence reinforcing the de facto partition.

In Belfast, British-built barriers separate Catholic and Protestant neighbourhoods.

The UN is building a security fence around its New York HQ.
(United Nations, May 6, 2004)

Earthwise,

If you wish intelligent debate, I would suggest ...

... well, in your case, I don’t know what I can suggest ...

Danielle,
Your comparison of Israel’s wall, with other such apparent examples is taken completely out of context. It’s nothing but spin.
Firstly the wall deviates greatly to the 1949 cease-fire line (the “Green Line”), and is built mostly on land occupied by Israel in 1967. Currently it intrudes into roughly 15 percent of West Bank territory to surround Israeli settlements, creating enclaves or so called closed areas depriving thousands of farmers of access to land.
In 2003 a resolution was introduced at the UN Security Council that would have decided “that the construction by Israel… of a wall in the Occupied Territories departing from the armistice line of 1949 is illegal under relevant provisions of international law and must be ceased and reversed” but surprise surprise the move was vetoed by the United States. The wall is “illegal” under international law, hardly comparable to the fence the United States erected to keep Mexicans out now is it? Not one of the walls mention by you falls into the illegal category of Israel’s wall

YYou can tell you are getting somewhere when the Zionists get more desperate and even more shrill. This happens when you are defending the indefensible. Like debating religious fanatics, they cannot use rational argument or logic, it is not on their side. So they rely on dogma and propaganda, repeated often enough (first to themselves) that they hope it will stick.

Which is easy enough, when the Powers are on your side. I'm not Palestinian, in fact I am part of the demographic that is most to blame (other than the US/Israelis). I am male, white and middle-aged, financially OK. I should be keeping my head down and enjoying my status quo while it lasts. What possible benefit is it to me to defend the Palestinain people, except for the nagging prick of my conscience? While Israel acts as an American vassal in the ME, I get cheap oil, and more broadly the paternal world order is maintained. It is not in my interest to defend the Palestinians, but I do. Because it is right.

Everyone who defends Israel does it for selfish reasons. There is no legal or moral ground to stand on, so it must be something else. If you were Israeli, I could understand, though I would ask you to look in your heart and find the truth. For you others, it is nothing but myopic self-interest, shame on you. You are only here to perpetuate the suffering of the Palestinian people, and Karma is coming for you.

My existence, and that of many millions of others, exposes your complicity.

Danielle,

English is an ancient artificially-reviving language with own specific as any language is, mostly verbal nuances vary among different geographical regions even in the same land-grabbed lands sustaining an Anglo-sphere, of which structurally-grammatical primitivism grounds its spread following “enduring a freedom round a globe” easily.

Probably, your late intention to deploy interpreters will allow providing the relevant answers on topic-related questions and would very much be appreciated in a case of my healthy curiosity particularly.

So, Danielle, what is more important: the discriminatorily applying “international law”-playing “Israeli occupation"-related endless playing words in pro-islamists environments especially, or a commonsense approach, where launching kassam at Israeli condominiums should be responded with at least two rockets non-discriminatorily?

Thank you in advance for eventual delighting on an issue concerned

Peachy,

Resolution 242:

Whilst calling on Arab States to make peace with Israel, the Security Council quite deliberately did not say that Israel withdraw from “all” the territories occupied since the Six-Day War. Those who drafted the resolution confirmed this:

On October 29, the British Foreign Secretary told the House of Commons that withdrawl did not envisage from “all” territories.

Later, Lord Carandon stated: “It would be wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967, because these positions were undesirable and artificial.”

US Ambassador, Arthur Goldberg, explained: “The notable omissions - which were not accidental - in regard to withdrawal are the words “the” or “all” and “the June 5, 1967 lines” ... the resolution speaks of withdrawal from the occupied territories without defining the extend of withdrawl.” ...the parties were to make ... “territorial adjustments in their peace settlement encompassing less than a complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from occupied territories, inasmuch as Israel’s prior frontiers had proved notably insecure.”

In Resolution 424 there is no requirement that Palestinians be given political rights or terroritory; they are only alluded to in the second clause of the second article which calls for “a just settlement of the refugee problem.”

Arab States, whilst accepting 242, defined it as requiring Israel’s total, unconditional withdrawal from the disputed territories.

Since Oslo, Israel has transferred virtually all civilian authority to the PA, whilst retaining its power to control its own external security and that of its citizens. 98% of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and now Gaza came under PA authority. Israeli presence in those areas has been due to violence against Israel. The way to end dispute over territories is for Palestinians to fulfil their obligations under the road map, and the PA to
stop the terror and negotiate a final settlement.

In 1937, 1939, 1947, 1979, 1993 and 2000 there have been opportunities for the creation of a Palestinian State; in 2000 Barak offered this, Arafat rejected it.

As Abba Eban remarked: “Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.”

cont...

The pre-1967 border, the Green Line, was not an internationally recognised border, but an armistice line between Israel and Jordan pending the negotiation of a final border. Israel’s fence is not a political statement, but a barrier against the prevention of terror, taking into account topography, population density and threat assessment to the area. Much of the fence runs along the Green Line, some places inside the Green Line. Rather than incorporate Ariel, a town of some 20,000 people, which would have meant extending the fence 12 miles into the West Bank, a separate fence was built around it.

Israeli negotiators have always envisaged the future border to be the 1967 “frontier” with modifications to minimize security risk to Israel.

The original route was 484 miles, but has been repeatedly modified. Under israel’s June 2004 Supreme Court decision, the barrier is being further altered closer to the 1967 cease-fire line, making it less burdensome to the Palestinians. The fence is now expected to be 385 miles, incorporating 7% of the West Bank. More than 140 miles has been completed, after being finished, Israel will decide whether to allow Jews to remain in communities on the “wrong side” and when they will be either offered compensation to move, or forcibly removed.

Every effort is made to exclude Palestinian villages from the area within the fence; and no territories are being annexed.

The land used is for security purposes, is not confiscated, remaining the property of the owner. Legal procedures allow every owner to file an objection to seizure of their land, and Israel has budgeted $US 22 million to compensate Palestinians for their land.

When, and if Palestinians negotiate an end to conflict, the fence will be removed.

Even without change, a Palestinian State could be established theoretically in 93% of the West Bank, with the territorial dispute reduced to negotiation of 90 square miles.

Earthrise,

I have an academic background, so like intellectual research and rigour, not assumptions based on poor evidence. I am not a Zionist, nor Israeli, nor even a Jew.

Earthrise,

I am a little surprised that you have gone back to your old ways. Flinging accusations and insults might make you feel better but it does nothing for the debate.

I challenge you to provide an example of any ‘shrill’ comments made by either Danielle or myself, in the last weeks posts.

I and Danielle have provided evidence for all our assertions. In your last post there is not a single statement you have backed up with a reference. It’s all unfounded personal opinion, with a bit of hysteria thrown in.

I am frankly astounded that you think white, middle class men are responsible for the tragedy in the Middle East. Racism isn’t a great look for a ‘progressive’.

How exactly is it that Israel is acting as the US’s vassal? Any evidence for this?

There is no benefit to me to defend the Israelis either. I am not a Jew, or an Israeli. And I am not sure how you think Israel helps us get cheap oil, any suggestions?

Paternalism? Are you joking? Women’s equality is a central tenet of Western society ( we have made great progress), yet many feminists happily champion the Islamic cause. It’s incredible, If you were at all interested in banishing sexism from the world you would be out there protesting against Islam’s treatment of women.

It’s becoming very clear that you lack the basic facts to support your conclusions. In fact it is you who is becoming SHRILL and DESPERATE. An example.

Earthrise. “Everyone who defends Israel does it for selfish reasons”.
What!! I am fairly sure I haven’t heard anything more inane from you yet. How do you come up with such preposterous nonsense?

Earthrise. “You are only here to perpetuate the suffering of the Palestinian people, and Karma is coming for you.”
Oh dear, I think you need a little bit of a lie down. I really don’t know how YOU could call anyone shrill and desperate after your most recent post. Clearly you have no fear of hypocrisy

Danielle,

We know history.
Where is answer on my question repeated steadily?

Is this message written in enough plain English, is it?

MichaelK.

I apologise for not responding sooner, I have been very busy. I do not know of the attack of which you write, however, Kassam rocket launchers are often lined up in an extended row (see PIJ's Qudsway Website, September 3, 2007), so depending upon the intelligence, line of command and other variables, within the IDF it is impossible to know the situation at that time.

Most of the Kassam rockets are locally manufactured and have an approximate maximum range of 9 kilometers (6 miles), although some have a range of 12.5 kilometers (7.3/4 miles). In addition, also launched are standard 122 mm rockets with a range of 20.4 kilometers (12 2/3 miles) which had been smuggled into the Gaza Strip.

Since the beginning of the cease-fire with the Palestinians on 26 November 2005, Kassam rocket and mortar attacks have been made on Israel, it seems a case of “you cease, and we fire”.

After the 40th Kassam rocket attack, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 6 December, 2006, said: "Israel has not responded even once to the rockets that have been fired since the beginning of the cease-fire, but it is impossible to be reconciled to this for long."

Since Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip in mid-August 2005 until the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip 1,826 missiles were fired into Israeli territory from Gaza as follows:

15 August - 31 December 2005: 270
1 January - 31 December 2006: 1020
1 January - 14 June 2007: 536

(In May this year , Palestinians launched some 300 Kassam rockets from Gaza at Sderot and the western Negev. Hamas openly claimed responsibility for the attack.)

On 3rd of this month, Jerusalem Battalions, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad’s military wing claimed responsibility ( sharing it with Fatah) for launching 9 Kassam rockets from the area around Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip. Eight rockets were fired between 6 am and 9.30 am at Sderot at a time when children with their parents were on their way to kindergarten and school - this being the second day of the the school year.

So frequent have been attacks, the schools in Sderot are furnished with metal desks for the children to seek protection under, rather than risk running to bomb shelters.

Whilst Hamas took over the Gaza Strip it has not directly participated in rocket fire, but has fired mortar shells at the security fence and the crossings, and has enabled the PIJ and small groups to fire rockets, even using its media empire to encourage them.

After the volleys of rockets fired on September 3 a spokesmen (calling himself “Abu Ahmad”) for the Jerusalem Battalions, the organization's terrorist operative wing, said that the attack was deliberately intended to disrupt the beginning of the Israeli school year

A posting which appeared on PalToday (one of the PIJ's Websites) headlined: “Rockets of the [ Jerusalem ] Battalions met the Sderot children when their new school year began.”

In past month alone: 29 rockets and 12 mortar shells have been fired at Israel’s cities.

Regards,

Danielle, so, you know a situation in general and to seme extent in particular.

The next step is to tell a word on how a “You cease-we fire” reality might be stopped by the Israelis – especially, have Arafatiya / Hamastan achieved independence at full scale.

MichaelK,

The logical step is for the PA to recognise the right of Israel to exist. Unfortunately Hamas won’t. But recognition of Israel and a true cease fire would see the tensions between Israel and the Palestinians cease.

The Palestinians should forget Israel, their priority should be in setting up their state.

Unfortunately a tragedy being played out in Palestine now. As we know, Arafat stole $USbillions of aid intended for the Palestinians. He kept them in a parlous state for propoganda, whilst keeping up the rage against Israel, yet seemingly wanting peace. His ability to keep so many balls in the air must be the admiration of any circus performer.

Any terrorists in the Palestinian state - and I mean those who are keep their own people in fear, should be disarmed and controled. But how? I can’t see the UN getting involved. Yet, the situation is critical.

Kaled Abu Toameh a Middle Eastern journalist, drawing on a survey, conducted by the Center for Opinion Polls and Survey Studies at An-Najah University in Nablus reported that 92% of respondents feel insecure because of the growing lawlessness in the PA-run areas.

Palestinians need, and have the opportunity, to build the infrastructure of a democratic state. They control the Gaza Strip and the population centers of the West Bank. However, due to the killing and terror of Palestinian killing Palestinian, tens of thousands have left or are trying to emigrate.

Palestinian sources report, as many as 80,000 people have departed the territories since the Palestinian War began in September 2000. A Bir Zeit University study found that 32 percent of Palestinians, and 44 percent of young Palestinians, would emigrate if they could.

This is a tragic loss of faith in the hope of a Palestinain State; and with it a brain drain, loss of industry, and departure of many talented and gifted Palestinians, who are desperately needed,

cont ..

Sources in the PA Foreign Ministry stated 10,000 Palestinians have filed requests, and been approved, to emigrate from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip since the beginning of 2007:

"According to our statistics, there are at least 45,000 emigration applications being reviewed by different countries." The majority being the US, EU and Canada

Palestinians have also moved to Israel because they would rather live in a democracy than a theocratic mobocracy. (Larry Derfner, “Jerusalem Undivided” U.S.News & World Report, June 3, 2007).

ARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press, reports that emigration from Gaza, in particular, has increased. Clashes between rival militias intensified after Hamas came to power in March, ousting the Fatah movement. A recent poll indicated that the number of young Palestinians wishing to leave has risen from 25 percent to 44 percent over two years.

Many are skilled and well educated. Creating the needed infrastructure would provide jobs for them.

Businesses are leaving

More than 20 factories have moved out of Gaza in recent months. Mohammed al-Kidwa, governor of Gaza City confirms that 35 factory owners applied to relocate.

So high are the numbers leaving, Palestinian Authority's mufti has issued a fatwa: "No Permission to Emigrate from Palestine,"

The fatwa reads:

"There has been much talk in Palestine about emigration, especially among the young people, due to the difficult security and economic situation. This is being done in search of a better life abroad. Many are continuing to rush to the gates of the embassies and consulates of the Western nations with requests for visas in order to reside permanently in those countries.

"We hereby declare that emigration from the blessed lands is not permitted according to religious law. The people living in these areas must remain in their homes and must not leave them to conquerors. Those who abide by this ruling will perform an honorable deed and will support the Aksa Mosque."

However, Muslims are permitted to travel abroad temporarily for study and work "as long as they are committed to returning and living in the blessed lands."

Today, article about “Young Bomber on the fast track” (The Herald Sun, 17 Sep-07 p.4) is really funny, concluding even the more funny pic of him relaxed, resting on a sofa.

Today article about “Young Bomber on the fast track” (The Herald Sun, 17 Sep-07 p.4) is really funny, concluding even the more funny pic of him relaxed, resting on a sofa.

A football star, 19 y.o. Bachar Houli tells of amendments his football club does arrange and will perhaps arrangements next year to accommodate his Ramadan schedule –and speaks of abuses Muslims experience in Australia due to his personal acquaintance with.

A few years ago a Jewish bright footballer was not taken on a team because he was playing on Saturdays and this upset then club president rabbi J. Gutnik.

Do not you think that accommodating every militant seizing a power over the PA he to once again allow Israel to exist is simply impossible for the international minders, England’s T. Blair is the top high-paid representative of?

Hi MichaelK.

I am pleased that the football team is making concession for Bachar Houli, the Muslim player ... Also, I really can't see a sportsman playing his best during Ramadan due to to fasting etc. Houli, who is playing a very Australian sport is to be commended on raising the issue of abuse suffered by Muslims in this country.

As for the Jewish footballer, perhaps he wasn't Orthodox, thus didn't see any problems playing on Saturdays. I believe (although am unsure) that Rabbi Gutnik is Orthodox, so wouldn't permit any Jew to play on a Saturday. Logically, Gutnik shouldn't have Jews on the team if this is so.

I think that the West have done a grave injustice to the Palestinians by not condemning very loudly terrorist organisations operating within Palestine. The Arab League has told Hamas and others to recognise Israel, but the West have been remarkably silent on this issue. When Hamas et al have sent rockets into Israel our media says nothing unless Israel retaliates; then portrays Israel as always the oppressor and the terrorists (Palestinians) as ever the oppressed.

The West makes no distinction between the average Palestinian and the terrorists among them, who also terrorise their own. This I am sure has heartened terrorist groups.

A Palestinian intellectual remarked that by not making a strong differentiation between Palestinians and terrorist organisations, the West still sees them "as the white man's burden."

The West should also be encouraging Palestine to set up an infrastructure for
statehood. This would do much to give Palestinians confidence in themseves, and go some way to discredit terrorist groups amongst them.

Regards

Daniella,

I cannot say "the West said nothing":

A military spokeswoman confirmed the Israeli army has asked the French network for its full unedited video material from the shooting. "The IDF is dealing directly with the network on the issue," the spokeswoman said on condition of anonymity under military guidelines.
Speaking in New York, spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich confirmed the military got involved because of a lawsuit involving French media watchdog Philippe Karsenty, who accused France 2 and its Israel correspondent, Charles Enderlin, of staging the shooting.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_boy_s_death

Practical Australian anti-Semitism -that is, for instance, qualifying local Jews in particular areas only and employing, if at all, for particular employers only- is nothing special for "the West" and it is a real support to islamists-both in the Middle East and locally in Australia.

MichaelK

The issue of the shooting has been debated from all sides - even from scientific experts (who said that an Israeli bullet could not have been the cause) , and undoubtedly will be continue to be debated. Anyone who has been in combat will explain that bullets can ricochet off objects. Sadly this father and son were caught up in a combat action.

In all my many years, I personally have never known any Jews to employ Jews over others - unless in a family-run business, which would be normal in any group. Undoubtedly this would occur in Muslim family businesses also. I have known Jews who are very involved in helping, what Australia calls, "illegal immigrants", many of whom are Muslim.

When I was first starting out in the workforce in this country, I came across formal discrimination against Jews and Catholics. An applicant had to complete a form stating whether they were either - if so, they were denied an interview. In those days, this was commonplace in the media. Not now.

During the Bosnian crisis, Israel was the first to offer asylum to Bosnian Muslims; and Israel also offered asylum to a group of Vietnamese boat people, whom no-one would admit to their country.

It is hard to quarrel with you that the Jews try being more anti-Semitic sometimes than even anti-Semites are – a story of a Jewish footballer is a good example of.

However, in Australia, it is much more easy for a Jew to pass through a needle head than being both qualified from a range of professions and taken on somewhere in mainstream company as I hardly estimate “family business” a practical solution to the university-educated skilled professionals is.

Nothing special, given the attention to usual hypocrisy and inequality at the top level worldwide:
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/8A389CD6C26F617EC125735C0077BB43?opendocument

MichaelK

I don’t think you quite grasped what I meant about the issues surrounding the Jewish footballer. But it does not matter.

I can’t agree with you that it is easier for a Jew to enter professions, than it is for any other group in society. Most businesses or professional organisations wouldn’t know if they were employing a Jew or not. The main concern of any business or professional body is purely financial and pragmatic - getting the best person for the job. If you know of any abuse where a Jew is employed over others, just because he is a Jew and not based on merit, then you should take it to the Equal Opportunity Board.

Israel has trucked into Gaza, tons and tons of humanitarian aid, at great risk to themselves.

Nevertheless, I read the link you provided and I agree.

Yet, the cause is the constant rocket fire into Israel; if these terrorist groups had any feeling towards their own people, they would desist. They can simply stop the rocket fire. But they won’t. They will worsen the situation for propoganda.

In addition, I have not heard any Human Rights group come out and protest in very strong terms the human rights abuses inflicted on the Palestinians by the Hamas and other similar organisations during the past. This is incomprehensible.

Regards

Danielle,

I do not suggest that "it is easier for a Jew to enter professions" in Australia, but quite opposite, wich at the end of the pipe does agree with your personal opinion although sometimes I feel my plain English is out of one's grasp definitely.

Worked and studied with females from the Arab world, I know they assume world and meanings differently even what their native males do/speak of. It is especially common in a Muslim world for non-explainable to/by me reasons and that is why a UNHRC statement does not wonder me at all – and you did, as I'd comprehended.

The question remains, what is a practical possibility for a two-state solution to prevent military out-busts in the future if a puppy-state for the Arabs of Palestine be arranged at last?

Hi MichaelK

Whilst the west, and the media, does not condemn the activities of the Hamas, and other terrorist goups in the loudest possible way, Hamas activities will worsen. Arab intellectuals condemn this. They state that these groups are encouraged by the West’s seeming tolerance of them - almost seeing them as freedom fighters (which they are not). Anything Israel does to defend itself, either politically or defensively, is used by Hamas as propoganda. We have seen how OLO members condemn Israel - and unless they can suggest a solution which is fair to both Israel and the ordinary Palestinian people, they are part of the problem.

The disputed territory between Israel and Palestine should be put aside until a Palestinian State is established - which should be immediate. The following good-will between Israel and Palestine, would see an amicable resolution of this territory. Not one involving weapons; a solution might be that the peoples living there have dual nationality Israeli/Palestinian. Whatever ... But it is counter-productive and illogical to wait until this terroritory, a small area, is resolved, before setting up the Palestinian State.

The declaration of, and infrastructure of a Palestinian State should start now. This possibly means a UN Peace-keeping force in place to prevent Palestinian terrorist groups killing other Palestinians, and preventing terrorists sending rockets into Israel. Wealthy countries of the West, and Arab States should provide solid financial aid, and also expertise. Israel could also provide necessary expertise.

Why do the Palestinians have to wait another 40+ years? Palestinian terrorist groups such as Hamas and like terrorist groups have demonstrably shown have no interest in the well-being of their own people. Terrorist groups operating in this area are puppets of other States ... and this will continue and worsen ...

The West has to be proactive instead of standing by and wringing their collective hands... and blaming Israel. If the West refuses to acknowledge the real situation, the cost to all, including the West will be enormous.

cont ...

History has demonstrated that it is only after war, with great loss of life, and devastation, that things are done, things that should have been implemented in the first place - preventing war. The way events are shaping in Palestinian areas this could well happen if a modern democratic and secular Palestinian State is not established.

Al-Qaeda wants to play a larger role in the Palestinian conflict. Whilst critical of Hamas’ participation in electoral politics, Al-Qaeda is very supportive of the Hamas coup in Gaza.
(Bruce Riedel, The Return of the Knights: al-Qaeda and the Fruits of Middle East Disorder)

As Bruce Riedel states, Al-Qaeda is waiting in the wings.

Iran is extremely dangerous. It supports terrorist organisations - Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban .

Iranian dissidents and Intellectualls warn of Iranian regime's terrorist, genocidal and nuclear ambitions. Ahmadinejad, himself, is extremely dangerous. He reportedly sends supplications and government communiques to be dropped into a well in city of Qum where he believes the promised Mahd has been hiding, since the age of nine, over 1100 years ago. He wants the destruction of Israel.

As an aside, it is interesting that we don’t hear voices of outrage from the West, that under the Iranian penal code, little girls as young as 9 yrs, and boys of 15 yrs are liable for execution.

Free Iran
http://www.activistchat.com/

“In his speech at the UN general assembly, Ahmadinejad implored the Mahdi to come and save the world. He claimed that during his speech of some twenty odd minutes, a powerful light enveloped him and all participants were held transfixed, unable to move their eyes.”

“His main task is to prepare the world so to hasten the Mahdi's coming. If this preparation requires much destruction and bloodshed, so be it”

Who is Mahmoud Ahmadinehad by Amil Imani
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/09/who_is_mahmoud_ahmadinejad.html

Free Iran
http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=31735#31735

Regards

Danielle,

The UN is not a panacea and guaranty for a stable peace nowhere in the world – and Israel-the PA are not exempt surely.

Recent Pr.Bush’s plan of extending the meeting between Olmer and Abbas by inviting Saudis and Syrians to negotiate in Washington is a next nobel attempt to ease a reality of a biologically motivated islamist hatred spread worldwide, of which Israel is a frontier place only.

MichaelK

I agree absolutely that the UN is not a panacea of peace; however, UN peace-keeping forces might be able to halt Palestinian terrorists killing their own people, and also attacking Israel. Having peace keepers is a message to the world, and other terrorist groups, that their behaviour is criminal. At present the world doesn’t seem to care what these terrorists are doing. I haven't seen one media article condemning them.

Yes. Peace keepers work out only when the countries are interested in peace -on the Egyptian border, on the Jordanian border.

I recall that before the Six-Day war, Egypt ordered out peace-keepers so that they could attack Israel.

I hope that the meeting between Olmer and Abbas with the Saudis and Syrians does prove fruitful. Not all Arab Muslims are against Israel - far from it.

I also agree with you that Israel is only the first step for Islamic terrorism.

As the French philosopher Bernard-Henri_Lévy said after 9/11 - the West must understand that Islamic terrorists see Paris, Berlin and other Western cities as outposts of the US; this includes Australia.

Regards

Danielle,

“UN peace-keeping forces might be able to halt Palestinian terrorists” is by high-paid bureaucrats-manipulators-taxpayers’-money-suckers an appropriately awaited achievable conclusion targeted FROM brainwashed concerned citizens’ majority.

MichaelK

I agree. You are completely right. I was obviously naive to suggest the idea of peace-keepers.

Regards

Danielle,

Thank you for an agreement-at least in this topic a consensus had achieved on something.

MichaelK

It has been a pleasure to discuss issues with you. And I hope we meet again on another
OLO.

Warm regards,

Danielle

Danielle,

I would like to hear what you have to say about the two topics "Give Iran the bomb? Reading Iran's apologists" and "US academic slams Iran president" if you are interested.

Paul.L

I have opinions on both these subjects and will place them online tomorrow.

Given Ahmadinejad’s delusional, but devoutly held religious belief, that the destruction of all infidels - (one coud read “world devastation”) - is a requirement for Mahdi’s coming, with only the faithful escaping death - is a terrifying tenet. Undoubtedly Ahmadinejad would like to be the servant to bring about Mahdi’s return. Iranian intellectuals and dissidents have warned us about this (and are beyond horror of any idea of nuclear power in Ahmadinedjad’s hands)- but the very soft left either ignore it, or just put it down to our “cultural misunderstanding”. I conclude that people are so challenged by reality, that they, ostrich-like, prefer to stick their heads in the sand and ignore it.

Unfortunately, if Ahmadinejad succeeds, the west won’t be able to lament, as Chamberlain did on his deathbed: “If only he hadn’t lied to me”.

I have only glanced at the OLO "US academic slams Iran president,” which when I read some of the opinions, seemed to be a condemnation of impolite behaviour.

Thank you for asking my humble opinions, Paul.L, it is very appreciated.

Warm regards

There is a very popular topic recently on possible developments in Iraq if Saddam was allowed going into exile with US$1 Bld.

The only conclusion towards any of these rulers is drawn by them themselves for others, which is the total annihilating.