Guy V, Your still blaming men for world population.
"Patriarchal control, to which you apear to adhere, is where the real problem lies."
Woman has always had dominion over her womb. To lay this at the door of men is simplistic and one sided. You forgot to figure in centuries old abortion and birth control techniques that woman has practiced, yes that's correct centuries of it long before the pill, into your claim of male womb ownership. I could go on but sufficient to the point. Population is a human issue not an issue of sex or irresponsibility or hormones. The reasons and reasoning is diverse as there are cultural identities and values.

Tony Ryan, I don't care who you claim holds your nutter opinions. It means nothing to me. World population has nothing to do with poverty. To say look at third worlders they're the cause of unfettered world population growth is knee-jerk racism at best. To say it is a factual and leading cause of Earths human density is absolute nonsense and list up there with the best of the tinfoil conspiracies. See a Doctor. They have all kinds of medicines today that extend life expectancy. I'm sure they can find something for your head.
Australia Pop. 20.5 Million
Cambodia Pop. 15 Million
El Salvador Pop. 7 million
Guatemala Pop. 12.8 million
Niger pop. 13.9 million
Nigeria Pop. 133.5 million
Rwanda Pop. 9 million
Sudan Pop. 36.9 million
United States Pop. 300.0 million

aqvarivs

Ah. Now I see the problem. You can't read. Go get Mummy, there's a dear.

Divergence

Fair question. If you had ever lived in a third world country and you suggested that old people (someone's beloved Granny) should be regarded as some outside entity (your community), they would look at you in horror. This is family, extended family, the prime value in any traditional or tribal community (which is, by the way, what tribal means). I have listened to Indonesian, Malay, Chinese, and even Aboriginal, people say that the reason they look down on white Australians is we do not value family; that we throw them in homes for the elderly. Even though they acknowledge the evident value in an age pension, many are suspicious of the damage this might have on the extended family. We have to respect their values. But I had not even alluded to this aspect, so I am not sure why you raised it.

Another thing they dispise is the kind of mindless ideological ranting offered by Yabby. Goodies and baddies through a political lens. Just for the record, in my humble opinion, third world people I have known were much more politically mature and savvy than the vast majority of Australians. Most certainly, they better understand the nature of power. Even their uni students have a grasp of politics in advance of most Australian political scientists I have met, which admitedly has not been many.

"Another thing they dispise is the kind of mindless ideological ranting offered by Yabby. Goodies and baddies through a political lens."

Hehe Tony Ryan, which is exactly what YOU are doing :)

But of course, lets not let the evidence get in the way of
a good story and the evidence is overwhelming. These societies
were not made poor by anyone. They were and usually still are
agrarian societies, living off the land. What the West got
badly wrong, was to send in a heap of religious missionaries,
who took with them vaccines and other modern medicines. Next
we sent more boatloads of food and more food. All very well,
as long as you address the family planning side. Without
it, you have exactly what we have today, even more hungry
people, 80 million a year added, in some of the poorest
countries.

So what evidence would you like? That many women in
the third world don't have access to family planning? That
they would like it? That the Catholic Church tries to deny
it, in the name of religious ideology?

When it comes to mindless ranting, without evidence, the
ball is fully in your court, Tony Ryan.

Sharkfin, the Jews were never really kicked out of Israel previously, it is just that their intellect or intelligence encouraged them to mix more with the former barbarian Westerners whose natural intelligence was pepped up interestingly through a thesis written by St Thomas Aquinas which advocated that for the Christian Church to adapt itself to earthly progress, faith in Christ and God needed to be tempered by reason.

Now the Jews already had a historic interest in the benefits of Socratic Reasoning. To turn back to late BC years when the Great Library of Alexandria was in its heyday, it is said that by far the majority of the students attending the library were Jews.

Now the main reason that the library was built according to historians, was to pass on the wonderful scientific findings of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. Alexander himself was also a pupil of Aristotle during what we all now know was the Golden Age of Greece, the Great Library of Alexandria passing on the message.

From the above we can see that the Jews, many we now call Israelies, are well into modern thought as well as scientific reasoning.

They also fit in well with modern capitalism which has its roots in Jewish philosophy.

Also it is no surprise to social scientists that Jews and ex-Israelis have merged so well into US politics, mostly among Republicans but also with the Democrats.

But besides giving praise, however, there is the problem that both Jews and Israelis have proven to follow big power, as they have previously with British conservatism as they also now do with the US.

In the Middle East, unfortunately, now a comparatively small Jewish nation, has with its intellect and big power backing caused an extremely serious problem - especially as the Israelis now possess the most sophisticated modern armoury, with the Palestinian Arabs next door having to resort to suicide bombing because there armoury is almost nil.

Many trained social scientists might ask - why did the world watch and let this happen?

It isn't so much that agrarian societies are poor or uneducated in themselves. There are many successful agrarian only societies. It is more to do with the extent to which tribalism affects trade. Whether that trade be across tribal boundaries or country borders. Much of the intra-African poverty can be seen in the light of tribal hatreds and violent associations that transcends borders. This environment inhibits trade and any accumulation of wealth. Keeps the standard of living down and stops others from investing in those societies. Because to become anything requires commitment and time, and money, few once away from these societies return to contribute to them. So they then lack teachers or doctors, or tradesmen, employment and the list of deficiencies can become quite long. Suffice to say. That society sees no benefit from it's behavior but, tribal histories and customs however detrimental to a successful society are kept and passed along to the next generation. A history of self-fulfilling prophecies.

Yes Tony I read your Rothschild conspiracy rant. Should I give it any attention or consider it academic to this discussion. No. Emphatically NO. And you want to be a leader in society? Good grief.

aqv etc

I have never aspired to leadership; nor will I ever. As I said, I support democracy; but no inconsistency here is apparent to you; obviously. I have, however spent much of my life within tribal communities and understand what they mean. I spoke their languages and learned to think in these. You, very clearly have not, and cannot. Every thing you say comes from books written by unilingual analysts. I recognise the flavour well. Not that it matters particularly; I am just disappointed at the lack of on-the-ground experience evident in this site. Everyone is a dogmatic theorist and ideologue. It is for this reason I am signing off and heading for Mathaba, where the real people grow.