Onya bottler.

Dr Hage, we've never met, but I'd be proud to call you a mate.

Fantastic article!

It is very clear that little Johnny and Co define themselves very much in relation to "us" and "them".

It is so true that the more different "they" are portrayed - the more self gratifyingly Australian "we" become. (in the eyes of the ignorant)

It is typical of the mentality that is scarily becomming the norm in Australian politics.

This daydream I had -

I wonder sometimes about the relationship between John Howard and me. We do have a relationship, although it has to be one sided, and of course I am the one who is personally aware of it.

I always feel the need to knock Howard - to distance myself. We automatically do the same with Saddam Hussein: "Of course he was a monster, wasn't he?" It's part of the process of plausible deniability which we all share.

Yet back in the days of Tampa, I sometimes wonder if Howard felt a kind of disappointment mixed with his triumph. I wonder if he began to distance himself from the rest of us then. I wonder if he felt let down by the rest of us.

- because maybe the Statesman in him might have secretly preferred that we Australians had turned up there in Canberra - to take Parliament apart brick-by-brick if necessary.

Maybe that would have made both he and us better persons.

In a way, we are all responsible for each other.

NIce read - easy - terrific insights - and all this from an academic - we await the pouring on of scorn. As sure as night follows day it will come.

And even today in the papers Andrew Robb continues to turn up the heat on this assimilation crap - Newcomers and would be citizens will have to pass some sort of test as to their understanding of the meaning of a "fair go" - among other aspects of our kulcha. As if this test will keep us save from whatever these numbskulls in power want to keep us safe from.

SO it seems a passing knowledge of the concepts implies that they will be actually applied as immigrants are brought into our country - these hurdles are just a less than subtle way of alienating people our national leaders have a dislike of -

Ghassan, Whilst I would agree with all you say about your early experiences here, things have changed from the 70's. I had lots of leb friends in Melb, music was one of the things bringing us together. Most of the problems they faced related to parents and family who found it hard to accept their children's Aussie development. It was a great time meeting people from everywhere who only wanted to share the harmony and enthusiasm Aus had for life. We all had the same ideology, no matter your origins.

We'd rid ourselves of the hold religion had on us and were experiencing freedom from wars, religion and sociological suppression. The religious nutters like our present PM were suppressed, yet still fumed in the background at their lack of control Now they have an agenda they can push to get their control and suppress us.

Assimilation happens naturally when you remove ideological restraints, but becomes impossible when ideologies become the agenda. Now the assimilists, are pushing and those coming to this country since the 70's, are pushing their non assimilate attitude and ideology.

Assimilation come about when people are comfortable and wish to become a part of this country, not by being pushed into it. We now have a large number of ideological people, who refuse to adapt to our ways giving us the feelings and acceptance, you felt along with most others settling here, back then.

The problem is the ideologies of the factionalist monotheists, not the people. The people are supporting the push for accountability, acceptance and loyalty to this country, because they fear, and rightly so, the push by these morons to create disharmony within the country and create their own ideological states within Australia. That's not becoming part of us, but an attempt to fracture our society, divide us and take over. All monotheistic factions have that sole aim and display it around the world.

Still love Zappa and Jean luc, very uniting music.

‘Lebanese society had, and still has, a very vibrant “democracy-tolerance-freedom of speech sort of atmosphere”

Yes. We had noticed what a wonderful place Lebanon is. It's really hard to understand why so many Lebanese have fled the place because of its ‘atmosphere’.

Hage fits in with a certain type of Australian, judging from his comment about ‘very ugly Australian assimilationists’: the sort of lefty fifth columnists who bag their own country at the slightest opportunity. He must be very much at home with his fellow academics in their closed little world. He has a lot to learn about Australia if he still thinks we all say, ‘G’Day mate’, and think about nothing more than sport.

And who has any interest in ‘harassing’ people into becoming Australian? If people wish to live on the margins, its their loss, not Australian’s. While the Government is correct seeking to require immigrants to take citizenship seriously – and earn it – it is unlikely to make much difference to what goes on in these peoples’ minds.

Still. What’s the point in arguing with a person like Hage, who thinks people who don’t hold his point of view are ‘nasty and malicious’.

If people do not want to assimilate, they should ask themselves why they didn’t stay ‘home’, instead of coming here to lead an isolated and crappy life in a cocoon of their own, whining to the rest of us about marginalisation that is self-inflicted.

Thanks for Ghassan Hage's brilliantly insightful and deeply human piece.It is good that it appears on the open forum of OLO as well as on New Matilda. It is one of the best and most important articles I have read on Australian politics and society for years. I love its humour, its civility, its refusal to be intimidated by the self-styled gatekeepers of our country. Leigh's typical response has already demonstrated the truth of Ghassan's argument - there will be many more such responses.

I have just sent in a reply to the government discussion paper on citizenship testing. It is a public response and will be up on my website www.tonykevin.com later today. It is relevant to this thread.

Who are "the rest of us", Leigh ? You mean you and the other assimilationists who don't like gays, women or migrants and who have to charge up their waning testosterone at noisy sporting events ? which actually puts yo'all in a tiny minority of probable bikies, hoods and racist rednecks. Anyway don't include me in your statements about "the rest of us." In my vision of my country, and I'm sixth generation white Aust., it is counter-productive in the extreme to oblige people to abide by "Aussie values" . A supposedly tolerant and easy-going society would never try to impose this on anyone. This would be the most absurd contradiction and I'm shocked that Kim Beazley would not recognise the weakness of his position.

Yes, thanks Dr Hage. Australian society is enriched by your presence.

Ironically, John Howard would not have a problem with Dr Hage being an aussie. He wouldn't call him names. Pity Dr Hage doesn't return the favor.

John Howard's comments are not talking about people like Dr Hage. Dr Hage has assimilated to the extent we would expect. The problem is not the Dr Hage's, it is the ones who don't want to speak english, who don't want to learn the aussie values that Dr Hage says he already has. The Lebanese gangs that harrassed women on Cronulla's beaches are the ones who need to be 'assimilated'. Perhaps Dr Hage should write an article calling them ugly instead of trying to play the victim card.

You sound like a nice bloke Dr Hage. I suppose u would have to at least pretend to be a Howard hater to get where u are academically. Obviously u are not a devouted muslim or u would not be able to share our values.

What exactly are the "Australian Values" to which Jackboot Johny refers to anyway? These values have changed over time. What may have been correct 50 years ago has no meaning today.

Are these "Australian Values" actually real and practiced in society, or are they some imagined or remembered idealisation from the past? Do we really give people a "fair-go" or do we just like to think we do?

Is an "Australian Value" the "No" vote to two Military Conscription votes in 1916 and 1917 or the government imposed Conscription of the Vietnam War?

Good on ya mate.
You have pointed the finger at what is wrong with debate in Australia.
It has no basis in fact.
Australian tourists to Bali always return in amasment with comments such as."The people are nice and they love Australians."
The meaning is two fold.Firstly, the people that obviously do not share the "Australian value of ,Mateship,somehow manage to survive;and that means 200million on land much smaller than AUSTRALIA.How they do it without the Australian Value of Mateship is amazing.
The second thing is that they actually like Australian's.
I didn't think anyone outside Australia liked them?
Keep writing English Dr Hage,and you may qualify to be a Real Aussie one day,maybe in four years and one day.

Good question Narcissist, what are Australian values?
Are they reflected in our foreign policy?
Are they reflected in the actions of our allies?
Are they reflected in our environmental record?
Are they reflected inour treatment of refugees?
Are they reflected in the behaviour of our leaders?

The bigger question from this article is how can a senior academic at an Australian University make the following statement:

Assimilationists are the real exclusionists of Australian history. They actually stop people from assimilating.

Can someone explain what this means. I would be most appreciative. Perhaps Dr Hage should learn what an oxymoron is.

Good questions peace

Good question Narcissist, what are Australian values?
Are they reflected in our foreign policy? Great generosity shown by Aussie Government to East Timor, at the time of Tsunami and also by ridding Iraq of its murderous dictator. Many of the other nations did not share the same concerns as the Aussies. I think we stack up pretty well.
Are they reflected in the actions of our allies? Generally yes. I would much rather live in the US than Iran or Saudi Arabia. MAtched against the toothless European countries I think our main ally looks pretty good.
Are they reflected in our environmental record? Leave that to the propaganda experts.
Are they reflected in our treatment of refugees? We treat genuine refugees pretty well I thought. We probably are not quite as kind to illegal queue jumpers
Are they reflected in the behaviour of our leaders? Mark Latham no. Joh Howard yes.

The anecdote of Dr Hage's successful integration into Australia, does not prove the 'Assimilationists' wrong any more than the unsuccessful integration of Bilal Skaf is proof they are right.

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in between. Some cultural groups have integrated very successfully and are now important contributors to the fabric of modern Australia. Some have integrated less successfully. Unfortunately, some ethnic groups are very much over represented in our crime statistics. These are matters deserving and warranting legitimate discussion in a democracy.

Dr Hage makes some valid points, but dismissing all Australians who dare to have reservations as 'nasty, malicious, assimilationists' intellectually dishonest, and stifles reasoned debate.

Beautiful article Dr Hage. So true.

The assimilationists can only be assimilationists for as long as they can point at someone and accuse them of not being sufficiently assimilated.

I wonder what makes them all so insecure that they need to do this?

Ghassan, Ghassan, Ghassan. Oi, oi, oi.

Tony,

Are my comments and opinions really any more typical of me than your opposing comments and opinions are typical of you? Pretty odd thing to say, old son. It says nothing about either of us. And you will have to explain to me how my disagreement with Hage proves him right! I don't agree with you on anything, but I've never thought you were silly. Now, I'm begining to wonder.

Kang,

I've never heard of you, so why would I be including you in my statements? How do you know I don't like gays, women or migrants? You know at lot about bikies and rednecks, too, I see. I don't suppose you run crystal ball correspondence classes, do you? I would be interested in signing up so that I, too, could have your great knowledge and insight into everything and everyone.

Of course, you could have been lurking and waiting to see how many people are of your opinion, and how many are not, before you took the plunge, and perhaps you made an arbitary judgement of me.

You should be happy, here. Many of the posters are losers who hate John Howard, blaming him for everything from haemmorrhoids to the actions of Islamic terrorists and AIDS in Africa. I, and a very few others, serve to put conservative opinions so that people like you can sneer at us and, apparently, make themselves feel good without actually having to give an opinion of their own or, come up with a counter argument. The PM has many faults, but here he is used as a punching bag by impotent and frustrated people who need someone to hate.

Sixth generation, white Australian, eh? You outdo me. I'm only a third generation Australian who couldn't possibly aspire to calling myself "Kang".

It sounds as though you are so 'tolerant and easygoing' that you won't mind when people without 'Australian values' finally take over and cut out tolerance. In the meantime,I will guarantee not to include you in 'the rest of us'. Believe me, I have no desire to be indentified with you.

What is missing in this debate is a clear distinction between the particularity of “customs” and the universality of “ethics”.

Australian assimilationists do NOT want people to adopt their “customs”, but just the “ethics” of humanity, principles that underpin the possibility of a critical democracy.

A core principle is that you care primarily for the whole, not just a part, for otherwise no part would exist in the first place if it were not for the power of the whole protecting and nurturing it. That is, we have not only rights upheld by the whole, but also duties and responsibilities to that whole.

To “conform” in this sense is not to become like others in the superficial sense of customs, but rather the substantive sense of ethical relations.

Why is there a profound lack of non-Anglo/European members in the army, police, fire brigade, ambulance – i.e. where you risk life and limb for the whole?

Not assimilating threatens the stability to the ethicality upholding the whole in principle, and so others have a legitimate basis for concern when communities grow insular. This concern is not itself a form of “racism”, but the very reaction to it (hence One Nation), for those whose interests concern not the whole but only their part identify primarily with a herd, a collective, a territory, rather than the universal "selfhood" that makes any community possible at all.

The new xenophobes all resort to their parents homelands for their “roots”, for the nature of Anglo identity has so much substance that it appears ghostly, threatening in its core as criticism itself, fairness itself, and thus change, transitoriness, the possibility of alienation.

“Multiculturalism” is way of appeasing the xenophobic tendencies of non-Anglos, shrouding them in an air of “underdog” or “victim”, and erecting barriers to fair criticism.

But nothing “is” unless it has been put to criticism, for it gains itself in the very process of being criticised!

Geez Ghassan

Great piece of writing as are your sentiments about Australian but I wonder exactly how close you are to your Aussie mates when the majority of them think John Howard is a great bloke and continue to vote for him. I think you've missed something.
For they don't think him 'mean spirited, cruel and uncaring towards those who don’t fit (his) cultural norms'. They don't think he wishes migrants ill will. They don't think he wants to hurt them. They agree with his calls to integrate, and they don't think he secretly works to do anything to them. And they agree with him that anyone who promptes assimilation isn't ugly

Dear Ghassan

I agree with your analysis of the Howard government's racist agenda, although, regrettably this gets them elected by a lot of Australians:

I feel very relaxed and comfortable reading this article because it makes a lot of sense, it is drawn from your own experience and the experience I have had of living in Australia for 35 years. The difference is that I came here with a Muslim Arab/Indian wife and our baby daughter from Britain.

But I also have several other 'identities', including a Germanic background and a Jewish grandmother. I have always been deeply suspicious of 'high identifier' patriots and nationalists, because they are simplistic in ‘constructing’ their ‘identities’ and usually unwilling to admit that their country's people ever did anything wrong in their historic past.

Australia belongs to the indigenous people, who also have a problem with the airbrushed version of history, which is promoted by the Howard government, who are busily gutting history departments at all our universities. Indigenous Australians have a lot of trouble 'assimilating' with people who refuse to accept them as they are.

I recently heard Philip Mendes explain that he had family members in Israel and had invested much energy into his support of his spiritual home. No doubt many Lebanese people feel like that. Lots of British people feel like that when they live in Australia.

I also know lots of people, who have lived in Australia for many years, yet speak a version of survival English or barely make themselves understood. The ‘discourse’ on ‘values’ is nothing short of insulting.

The Howard government cares little who they hurt. They are leading this country into a "Kristallnacht in slow motion", against Muslims and other minority groups – resulted in the Cronulla riots. Lets not forget the NSW and federal governments’ failure to prosecute Alan Jones for actual incitement to commit violent acts.

Nor can Kim Beazley be let off for his preposterous suggestion. I feel disgusted as he goes on digging a hole struggling to make this respectable – and identical to the Howard team.

Willy Bach
http://willybachpoeticthoughts.blogspot.com/

Nice article. Too humane for to-days world though!

We have to have confrontation and naming of an ‘other’,anyone different from our supposed unique values, values which within a nation seem to work.

Minor blips are corrected by the law, now twisted to seek terrorists whose presence if any, we have encouraged (how many of the many arrested headlined named terrorists of recent time have actually been convicted of terrorism. In Britain of 609 arrested June 2003 99 charged 15 convicted and most for criminalities uncovered in the process of arresting but not necessarily terrorist related.But yes they do exist.)

These values are put aside, when international strife arrives. International law, formed round similar values to those that are national are put aside. ( who other than are own moral concerns will police the world scene?)

What we have is a hyped up war with Governments wanting us to believe in a threat and to dislike the ‘other’ .

So you have GW Bush coining Islam-Fascists and copied by our treasurer.

You have a Prime minister always tip toeing never actually saying it is the Muslims, but rather a section of, but drawing attention to them . (Pape in Dying to Win notes that the main motive of suicide terrorists is recovery of their land from foreign influences. rather like G W Bush the torture in Iraq and Cuba about which Senator Hill Assured us the Government was not told, as being just a few bad apples!

What we have is equivalent to the juvenile game of seeing who can pee the furthest but with the sting that attention is concentrated on difference. Fear and hatred engendered.

Had the world gone after the terrorists (criminals however sincerely held their beliefs) by intelligence and policing instead of the emotionalised picture of evil and big stick, we might have made some friends. Had we addressed some of their problems instead of simple denial we might not have had an increased tendency for Islam to be used as excuse and reason. Nor the stupid waste of effort we see in proclaiming our righteousness.

Hey Ghassan - big fan of your work here! Great article.

Leigh - Your comments are troubling. Did it not occur to you that people choose to leave for employment reasons? Never mind the political turbulence caused by Israel.

I was born here but I want to visit Lebanon and possibly live there. Does that make me disloyal to my country? It's this attitude that sets us back to the middle ages - not Islamic ideology.

All this talk of values really irritates me. Values are essentially universal in nature. The ones you speak of are hardly unique to Australia. What is unique to Australia is something that can only be attained naturally - not enforced. Europeans don't understand us sometimes too - but that's what makes it beautiful. Diversity. I don't expect my foreign friends to get me entirely but I can spend hours talking with them about our differences. I don't expect them to buck up and change the minute they step foot into this country - wanting to be a citizen or not. Even the brits are seemingly different to us. If we enforce some kind of test on them what does that achieve? It's superficial and it's stupid. As Ghassan stated there is really only one motive behind all this talk.

Countries like Iran only have fundamental and conservative governments today because the British and the US put them in power. Regime change is the most successful political manoeuvre of the Imperialist powers and anyone who thinks these "values" are just inherent in countries in the middle east are severely mistaken and show signs of being uneducated.

Don't listen to the hype that they're so different from us. In the end the ones who are so different from easy going Australians are those fundamentalist Christians who plague the United States and who are heading our way. They are the ones preventing stem cell research and other progressive technologies from occuring.

And what exactly are we afraid of again?? Make believe stories about Jihad and terrorism and somehow the two being linked together. God help us all.

Well said Ghassan,

A healthy society is created when we accept and affirm our similarities, not when we argue about what makes us different from each other.

"A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open" - Frank Zappa

Same old bigots crawling around.

Runner speaks about illegal queue jumpers as if that was a real proposition at any time in the real world - those queue jumpers are now the very same people being made citizens of Australia you twit.

We locked up babies and called it border protection, we beat the children and called them vermin, we bashed the men and women and called them "Illegals" then had to admit they aren't.

We invaded and occupied two countries based on phoney information.

Leigh, you are one of the worst types of bigots - 3 rd generation bigot. First generation are the worst while the 7th gens. like me don't know any different.

WE all live on this island and not one of us is more important than anyone else.

Beside all that there is no such thing as a constitutional citizen, it is purely a voluntary process available to permanent resident migrants if they want to be citizens.

It did not help Vivian Alvarez one iota did it?

"Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one." (Malcolm Forbes"

More education required, methinks.

I can feel a creeping White Australianism in the air ...

I see no problem with what John Howard is asking of all potential immigrants.People like you are usually Ghassan are not the problem.If you don't believe that Sydney has a serious Lebanese crime,and ani-social problems,then you are being very selective about the realities you observe.Unless your community starts to admit to these problems and be pro-active in combating them, living in denial will only deepen the alienation that you community feels.

At a recent citizenship ceremony in Sydney of 750 people only 150 stayed for the national anthem.

All we ask is that people agree to some very basic tenants of the rule of Australian Law,respecting the rights of men and women,and being committed to Australia by holding down a job.

We are not asking you to give up your culture or your religion,just respect others beliefs.

If you think something is wrong with these requests,then you are in the wrong country.

Would Marrilyn Sheppard start usung some facts and logic to back up her assertions,as she have become very tiresome.

I know it's a cheap shot, but at least Dr Hage uses English correctly.

And who would blame anybody for not hanging around for the dirge that passes for our national anthem?

When i returned to Australia after 4 years in a Muslim country where i had come to hate and fear Islam, for good reasons, I went to an RSL club where i was surrounded by grossly fat, semi-literate, drunken oafs (of both sexes) whose only interests seem to be gambling, swearing, and behaving like morons I thought to myself, "Is this the way of life i want to help preserve?"
It isn't, but I'll still fight to stop the Muslim fanatics take over the world anyway because we at least have the freedom to be oafs and it is the freedom that is worth defending.
The Muslims I had known paraded their piety but they were corrupt, lieing hypocrites. This guy isn't what we have to worry about, it is the Muslim religion, 'the way of life', the umma, that is what you should be afraid of and be prepared to fight tooth and nail, because it is coming.

LOL CJ. You are not alone in cringing at their poor english. I wonder how many Australians would fail the new test? Me thinks many.

Citizen - aptly named. Generalisations of any kind always shock me. I wonder how many Australians identify with your above description.

Then I think. How does the umma feel about being labelled as liars, hypocrites etc?

Then I stop thinking because I realise that nothing you say is actually worth contemplating.

It would be like taking a comedy show seriously. Who does that?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking immigrants to accept Australian values if they choose to live here. Universal Australian values are as follows: freedom, democracy and prosperity. Australian values are not: tolerance, fair go and diversity.

Because...

Australians have the freedom to hate multiculturalism and say so. Australians have the freedom to show animated respect towards ethnic minorities and to sneer utter contempt towards Anglo battlers. That's freedom and democracy in action, mate.

Australia has an established order that affords us the freedom, democracy and prosperity we all hope to retain. Imports (sorry, 'new' Australians) must accept this or do themselves and us all a favour and go home.

And finally, white Australia is not such a bad thing. White Australia developed the country and made it a desirable place to live for immigrants around the world. Whites effectively do the spade work, while immigrants sleep on the pillow. All the more reason for immigrants to assimilate into our way of life

Good on you mate. As a 6th generation Aussie with children who's Australian heratige goes back a few thousand years further than my own I welcome you into my world, hope you feel the same way.

Interestingly we do have a selection of Australian values, we even have a strategy for teaching them in Aussie schools. You can find them on a poster supplied with the Australian Values for Schooling Kit at

http://www.valueseducation.edu.au/verve/_resources/values_values_we_share_poster.pdf

But the short version is “Fair go”, “Care and compassion”, “Responsibility”, “Honesty and Trustworthiness”, “Integrity”, “Respect”, “Freedom”, “Understanding, Tolerance, and Inclusion” and “Doing your best”.

There you go, straight from the boardroom of some well intentioned committee!

DA

I know your type DA quite well. I know a white woman who married a jamaican and had black kids. Except she taught them to hate white people. Now one kid is a wheel chair bound heroin addict. The other kid is in jail and the third kid has to supply drugs to the one in the wheelchair.

Assimilation requires respect for the broader culture. Steer clear of those extreme leftie feral types.

CJ Morgan.You apparently would not respect the the National anthem of any country on this planet,not even the one you wish to emigrate to? I don't particularly like our anthem,but I ways show respect for those who made Australia such a wonderful place compared to a mostly undemocratic,chaotic world that surrounds us.

All the left wing lunies are screaming xenophobia,and racism in the light of what countries like The Netherlands have been doing for some time with good reason.The anachists pluck facts from all over the world to suit their twisted agenders,but never do they look at the total picture of what is good for most of us.

The majority of Australians just shake their heads in disbelief and disgust at you lot.We have tolerated your lunacy and anarchy to the detriment of Australia for decades.The mentality of being soft on drugs,discipline,law,order,traditional values,work ethic etc, has brought about the decay we are witnessing now.

Enough is enough and it is time for those who work hard every day and hold up this fragile umbrella called civilisation told you lot where to go.In the past they were too busy working,but now there is keen interest.

Kim Beasley knows the reality and the hand wringing bleeding hearts who prey on our weakness are pleading for a softened approach because they might lose votes from all the minority groups they have pandered for decades.

The Labor party have painted themselves into another corner,and their demise was of their own making.The Aussie public are far more astute than the Labor Party or left wing anarchists.

[Deleted and user suspended for flaming.]

Dear Ghassan

1/ You described yourself as an integrated, assimilated Aussie of Lebanese background.
2/ Then, you attack 'assimilationists' when in fact all they ask is for migrants to emulate you.

The focus of the passionate Assimilationists (like me) is those who do NOT share your view and attitude. It is reserved for those who would cordon off the Rockpools at Cronulla in the name of their culture(for their women) or those who regard themselves as inherently superior and hate western values.

So, on the one hand you demonstrated how easy it can be, and how unstressful assimilation/integration CAN be.. and then you attack those of us who are concerned about others who do NOT share your generous embracing approach !

Now.. I hate to point out the irony of this but your rant against assimilationists actually DEMONSTRATED the very thing you rail against, but in that case it is a shirt you have to wear yourself.

You seem to be of the view that the only kind of assimilationist is he/she who simply does NOT WANT the migrant to be here or come here.

For me, all I ask is the following:

Migrants of different ethnicities and religions are welcome, subject to their numbers being controlled such that they do not constitute a social,cultural or political threat to our prevailing equalibrium on each of those points.

Now this view of mine is exactly in the form of "do for others as you would have them do for you".

If I contemplate going to a foreign country and establishing an enclave of Assies, who then form a lobby group and seek to alter the cultural,social,political situation of that foreign country into the shape more amenable to OUR cultural background, we would (rightly) be given the short shift out of the place.

please (all) read this article and replace the word "Jews" with "Migrant" and you will find one of the most compelling, reasoned and irresistable arguments for my views expressed above.
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~radnat/stephensen/prs3.html
written by my new hero of 2 days.. Percy Stephenson (the website where it is found is irrelevant)

BOAZ,

From your link above (published in 1940):

“In the pre-War years, however—say, from 1933 to 1939—as the resentment of Jews throughout the world against Hitler’s attitude towards their co-racialists in Germany came to a climax, Australia, like other non-German countries, was flooded with Prosemitic propaganda, amounting in essence to a loud appeal for help, couched in urgent and dramatic terms—with exaggerated vilification of Hitler and equally-exaggerated eulogy of Jewry. A propaganda of this character necessarily became tendentious.”

With the benefit of hindsight, I’d say they had a point, wouldn’t you?

BOAZ, you are a fright. The last sentence of your link reads

"That remedy is that the Jewish Race should abolish itself, by becoming absorbed in the common stream of mankind. If this is impracticable—as must seem likely after 5,000 years of their aloofness—then we others, who are so strictly excluded from the Jewish community, have at least a reciprocal right to exclude them from ours."

If anyone is going to win a genocidal war, I think that there are more muslims than christians.

Is there anything to be gained by spewing difference, fear and hatred?

Davo - that Percy Stephenson piece was fine methinks - thankyou.

Donkey's years ago I well remember going into the houses of new Greek and Italian immigrants, as a young electronic serviceman. The clothing - the smell of unfamiliar food on the stove - the faltering English - the snotty urchins - it was alien and scary frankly.

- yet we have blended in two or three generations and the whole country is far richer for that. Who cares any more? It was nothing really. Nothing at all.

So maybe the thing that most defines "Australian-ness" is the idea that NO-ONE is special - no-one coming to this country has the right to prevent their children and grandchildren fully integrating into the general populace.

I remember that it was the immigrant kids and first generationalists who had it toughest of all - because they were stuck in the middle, all on their own - no-one to turn to. And I see it again in the youngsters of Middle Eastern immigrants. Give 'em time. Give 'em time.

They NEED to be anarchists.

Don't smother them, because if the ties that bind prove too strong, then Mullahs, Rabbis and Priests will rule the day. Those kids will be sentenced to the prison of someone else's prejudice.

- and that will surely be a case of arrested development.

Chris, with respect I don’t think the Stephensen piece is fine at all. In summary he’s saying that those silly Jews have brought anti-Semitism on themselves by saying unkind things about that nice Mr Hitler, and by being… you know being… well, just being. I’m not sure this is the strongest pro assimilationist argument, especially in 2006. If anything, the parallels with similar arguments today have a chilling resonance.

I don’t feel any particular need for a Nationalist Hero, but if I did, it wouldn’t be a guy who was interred in World War II for his pro Japanese and pro Nazi position. Yes, I know it was a bit more complex than that, and that Stephensen was a complex man. See:

http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A120084b.htm

OK, I'll try to simplify if I can -

Take two groups - any two in proximity - and tell one group that it is "special".

The "special" group has no trouble whatsoever in believing that little revelation - who wouldnt?

The other group is set apart and united by the injustice of not being "special" too.

It works for Jew and Arabs, Serbs and Kosovars, Tutsi and Hutu - the list is almost endless.

Notice that I didn't include my tribe. That's because white anglo-saxon protestants are "special". Oh, we wouldn't do that - would we?

Would we?

Seems to me that that a kind of humility is called for - called "she'll be right". People who don't cultivate that special humilty sell their ethics and morality very, very cheaply.

I suppose someone will invoke Godwin's Law if I point out that Boaz's new hero was a Nazi/fascist sympathiser, and that his link is to a white supremacist site? Very suspect company to keep, I would say.

Samuel Johnson once said that nationalism is the first refuge of the scoundrel...

Apologies - I meant to say "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". Perhaps a Freudian slip on my part?

CJ MORGAN
The site was the Australia First party, but that is not the issue.
I don't support them particularly and especially any hint of 'White' superiority.
Its worth noting that Percy/Inky, was in fact interned for 3 yrs for dubious loyalty issues. Pro Fascist yes.. so it was said. But none of that takes away from the sound, dare I say the exceptional and balanced reasoning he used in that piece. I challenge anyone to fault his reasoning and logic.

Remember, I said 'replace the word 'Jews' in that, with 'migrant'.

Chris has caught what I mean't by that. Now you can catch up :)

SNOUT if you doubt that in some cases, Jews have brought anti semitism on themselves you may wish to research the Sasoon family from Baghdad, who ran the opium trade for the British Crown in China, and see exactly how they operated. Installing Jews (family members) all throughout China to promote this vile trade. They could have advertized for workers, but chose to use family members. Then when you look at how the Bank of China (Taiwan) started...... you will see what I mean. The point is....ANY ethnic or reliigous group, Jew or Italian or Greek or Turkish....any.. if they persue goals which benefit their group to the exclusion of others, will produce a reaction. Anti Semitism, Anti Migrant etc etc.

Stephensons reasoning is that you cannot have 'anti' semitism without an existing'semitism'... and clearly you cannot have 'anti-migrant' views unless you have 'pro-migrant' views to begin with.
So, if migrants don't threaten Australian idenitity, no one will think anything of them.

He makes the point that small groups who don't have influence far outweighing their numbers will not produce any reaction. Do you get this ?

Boaz, you are treading a very dangerous path.

The work you refer to is classic Nazi proselytism, albeit lacking its intellectual rigour.

To write such a document in 1940 (the war had started by then, incidentally, and the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich was well known), labels Stephenson a Nazi propagandist, pure and simple.

Some of the argumentation is worthy of Josef Goebbles himself.

"...the Jewish minority technique has undoubtedly supplied the inspiration and the model for Communist Party organisation, in all countries, including Russia and Australia."

...and...

"It is clear that the intention of our Legislative Forefathers was to base Australian life on what may be described as Fused-European Homogeneity... The unmistakable implication of our national policy is that Australia’s future citizens will be bred from a free intermixing of the various imported European strains—avoiding in particular the social problems which would result from Eurasian miscegenation, or alternatively from segregation of alien racial minorities within the general community."

I can certainly see how this appeals to you with your rabble-rousing hat on. Such an amalgam of dubious opinion stated as fact – “Jewish model for Communist party organization”, and unfounded speculation – “it is clear that the intention of our forefathers was...” – is classic Third Reich stuff.

It does surprise me a little that you have been so duped by its air of studied innocence. Your suggestion that you can bring it up to date by substituting “migrant” for “Jew” is disingenuous in the extreme. For a start, the tacky paragraph on “ Fused-European Homogeneity”, which is clearly code for “White Supremacy” or even “Racial Purity”, doesn't even mention Jews, but still stands out as a masterpiece of bigotry.

The part that you would like us to latch onto is the “call to arms”:

“The implication of the Jewish practice of Racialism is unmistakably Themselves First—Themselves versus the Rest. Once understood, that constitutes a challenge to the Rest of Us which cannot conscientiously be disregarded.”

Boaz, I'm serious. Get help.

Gracealone - dont confuse being sarcastic with being a pedant:

As for values - as i said this debate is not about them -

Why are we no longer concerned about the Asianisation of Australia?

It was that which once threatened the world as we knew it - before that it was the post WW11 reffos, before that it was the Irish ( Sen J Faulkner gave a very interesting address re this) and then the Chinese - god those Asian are persistent!

oooops I forgot - 7 eleven, I mean 9/11 -

SO now we are going to test people - test their allegiance and understanding of what we are as a nation - test their understanding of a fair go, tolerance, justice and gender equality - so when they get here they will fit in - I suppose it will also weed out undesireables - test smesht!

I mean we could our leaders on the principles of telling the truth ethics, morality and a fair go I am sure they would pass the test with flying colours - but they still lie cheat and fail in their duty of care to their citizens - what would be the point: we take those who stand for public office with little real scrutiny - but heck what does that matter they only run the place

But I can actually see a business opportunity here - offering off shore tuition to would be immigrants could be a nice littel earner - a sure fire education in passing the test of Australianess - a web based approach would be they way to go - Andrew Theophanous could work as a consultant on immigration again - he's got form in that area.

I can also see jihadists queuing up for miles - and they've got buckets of money - practising their G'days and listening to Waltzing Matilda on thier iPods dreaming that once they pass this test - and get to be citizens 4 years later - they can turn a whole bunch of us into pink mist.

I worked for the Catholic clergy for ten years, a Jewish business family for five years and an establishment dominated by Methodist employers and employees, for two years. I have no religion.

I have retained many friends within all of the above groups. Whilst I respected the various religious ethos of my employers, religion was never a topic.

Dare I breach political correctness when I say that we Australians feel uncomfortable about Islam. And we have a right to be fearful when we consider the recurring Islamic persecutions of Christians in Africa, the Middle East, South West Asia and South East Asia. The violence and hatred perpetrated by members of Islam turns the past conflict in Ireland into a tea party.

When you have Islamic leaders inciting their members to burn down Christian churches, such as the Palestinian Muslims have done in Gaza and the West Bank and the murder of a nun in Somalia, simply because they disliked the Pope's speech, then Australians have every right to feel uneasy.

Australian Muslims claim they are peace loving. Then I ask that they direct their spokespeople to publicly condemn Muslims who are bombing and shooting innocent victims around the world. They will need to refer directly to the specific Islamic perpetrators of these heinous acts to earn credibility within the Australian community. Until they publicly take a stance against Islamic violence and cease being on the defensive, many will continue to view Australian Muslims as sympathisers of radical Islam. Sheik ali-Halali does little for his followers in this country!

If Muslims genuinely want acceptance in a country which practises Christian values, then Muslims must afford Christians in their past homelands, the same respect.

Dickie

The largest killing of people in Africa I think took place in Ruanda.
This country had a predominantly christian population and there are reports of members of the clergy taking part in the killing.
This did not seem to attract much interest, if muslims had been the killers it would have made the front pages for weeks.

Christian or Muslim fundamentalists have much in common. They are always right (in their minds) and the ends always justify the means.
Fundamentalists seem to govern by the politics of fear. Hitler used this system on the german people, they became so scared of being attacked that they let him have his way and start attacking other countries.

The people of Iraq did not attack the USA, the UK or Australia but they are the people who are dieing (sorry, I meant collateral damage).
Twelve years of sanctions prevented the country repairing its water supply, electrical and health systems and this resulted in the premature deaths of thousands. They were then invaded by countries whose people had been made afraid of being attacked with weapons of mass distruction. There still seems to be a problem finding these weapons.

If Australian Values are to be retained then we must stop listening to the fundamentalists of any religion. We need to start analyzing what they say instead of just accepting whatever we are told.

Chris,

I’m not one to propose a set of uniquely Australian characteristics -but if I were, at the top of the list I’d put a well developed appreciation for the art of irony. In my defence I’d cite your description of Stephensen’s article as “fine”.

CJ,

My understanding of Godwin’s Law is that applies to attempts to discredit an opposing view by drawing parallels with pro Nazi and anti-Semitic sentiment. I’m not sure if it applies when one uses such sentiment to support ones own. By the way, I’d say Australia’s National Anthem is probably the strongest argument ever for the abolition of the Commonwealth Games.

Boaz,

Sorry, mate, but no, I don’t “get this”. Stephensen’s polemic has enormous power when you consider the current debates about multiculturalism and cultural tolerance, but only when read with a darkly ironic mindset and an understanding of the contemporaneous and subsequent history. The Nazi holocaust provides the central case study of the 20th century of evil, genocide and intolerance. It is critical that we learn from this to avoid the same mistakes (if that’s not too mild a word) from happening again. Billie, Pericles and I have each provided excerpts from Stephensen’s piece which should make the irony obvious.

I seriously “don’t get” calls for racial or cultural homogeneity in my country, which has, for the last 200 years at least, been a nation of immigrants. Apart from anything else, I’m deeply suspicious of the standards of “Australianness” that might be set by such self appointed cultural guardians, or their motives for doing so

hmmm the nazi holocaust...what the hell does that have to do with Australian values? I know, that was the war featuring those nasty white people, and must be used to justify a diverse culturally void Australia.

Australian values evolved from the good old white Australia days. The rule of law, capitalism, freedom and democracy. Of course, Australia is now ethnically diverse because masses of consumers matter more than cultural and ethnic identity. To be more accurate, the identity of ethnic minorities is sacred and exciting whereas Anglo identity is, well, boring.

In fact, Anglo pride is a threat to the sham called multiculturalism.

Hells, the relevance of Nazisim to this discussion is that Boaz chose a second world war era document from a Nazi apologist as a model for our current discussions about multiculturalism and assimilation. The failings of that political ideology should provide obvious lessons for those who seek to reprise similar arguments about some kind of mythical ideal of cultural or racial homogeneity or to try to create spurious nationalist myths. While these fantasies might serve to assuage personal inadequacies, perceived hurts and other types of personal psychopathology, they can, as history has continually shown, have horrendous results once the psychosis goes national. And though the Nazis provided the model for understanding the dynamics behind 20th century genocides, this period of human nastiness was only one of a number during that century (the gold and silver medals actually go to the Stalinist era USSR and Maoist China). My belief is the propensity for such evil is, on the evidence of history, as hardwired into the human brain as any other kind of personal madness. It requires very careful handling.

To be perfectly frank, while I'm proud of my own Anglo Celtic heritage I have no particular burning desire to create a personal or political identity around it, and I have no interest in supporting those who want to dictate their own version of their Anglo heritage as compulsorily normative in this country.

I love my country, and in particular the value of a fair go for all. Bashing of any minority, whether they be Mossies, or Jews, or Asians, or Aboriginals, or gays or whatever is anathema to me. It’s simply bullying, and, dare I say it, un-Australian.

Thanks Pericles and Snout for stating explicitly what I was getting at. When I followed up the website whence Stephenson's odious diatribe was sourced, I noticed a preponderance of missives by one Jim Saleam - one of the most odiously infamous Australian "nationalists" one could name. That anybody could promote tripe such as Stephenson's, sourced from such a thinly disguised white supremacist website, almost defines new parameters for credulity. No wonder Howard (and Beazley's) "dog whistling" is so successful!

Also, many thanks to Snout for absolving me for my putative contravention of Godwin's Law :)

And I most heartily agree re the Commonwealth Games.

OK - my fault. I'll try this way:

By the merest accident of birth, I wasn't born into any religion or sect that gave a damn. If I had, I might have had the comfort of a safety net that included a good education and a guaranteed vocation. I might count my blessings at being part of a sub-group that had my best interests at heart, even before conception. That's pretty special.

But such good fortune comes at a terrible cost, when the price that must be paid is conformity to a particular world view. How can I bite the hand that feeds me? Shall I betray my group? Dare I refuse the dress-code?

So the great strength of a well knit sub-group is also it's main weakness. The stronger the ties, the more fossilised the thinking. Anarchy and free thought have naturally been suppressed. The crimes of the few taints the whole mob, because they are seen to behave like a herd.

I think that this was the thrust of the Stephenson piece. It could apply to any sub-group that works to stay aloof.

Right now, I get the feeling that John Howard wants to turn Aussies into a group of aloof Crocodile Hunters -

- danger, danger!

Peace - I am in agreement. My intention in my previous post was not to support any religious fundamentalist group, nor to dwell on historical events.

My concern is the current global situation where fundamentalists, who seemingly remain in the middle ages, commit mayhem by murdering innocent people. In addition, their violence extends to wiping out other Muslims of different tribes wrought by intolerance, hatred and revenge. This practice is alien to Australians! And we are called racists because we ask migrants to learn English?!

We are now witnessing atrocities committed by fundamentalists in the US and Britain. The perpetrators can not be excused as being illiterate since they were not!

Ghassan Hage's vicious whinge on those he describes as "assimilationists" is also a concern since he assures the reader that he has assimilated very well. Is he suggesting that he is more capable of assimilating than others? What is his problem? Lack of promotion?

I omitted to advise in my last post that I was raised in a minority group (5th generation Australian) since all neighbours were of ethnic background - namely Italians, Yugoslavs, German and Polish. Despite their difficulties at times in assimilating, they were not thin skinned nor do I recall any whinging and certainly not any terrorist activities. These good people were very keen to participate in communal activities, to learn to speak English and their reciprocal warm hospitality remains a very pleasant memory.

I trust the Australian Muslims have similar desires, however, they need to speak more loudly than the violent members of the Islamic faith and to cease taking offence at free speech! Their constant omission to denounce violence in the name of Allah is not reassuring!

I am sorry David Boaz but Stephensen’s article was fundamentally flawed. First of all the first Jews to enter Australia were selected by the best of British Judges and they started arriving on the FIRST FLEET!

Yes they arrived with the first Christians and helped to develop Australia's colonial society. Some of them were real crooks others just victims of a depression in a country (Britain) which was without unemploymenrt benefits.

Many became important parts of part of the establishment. The first policeman, the first Shakespearean actor, the first composer, the majority of the early publicans were Jewish. And it is possible for people to convert to Judaism, although that is a bit harder than becoming a Christian or a Muslim. It is not such an exclusive group.

But Jews like Buddists and Hindus don't push conversion because they believe that divine favours are given to all good people regardless of their professed faith. That is why Asian cultures such as India, China and Japan have always accepted Jews.

To get back to the subject immigrants must accept Australian society but apparantly not the indigenous one. Australian values include Jewish values because they are a part of the founder group. Some of Australian slang has Yiddish origins. (ANU accepts a possibility that the word Cobber might come from the Hebrew Kaber meaning friend).

There is plenty of evidence that non-founder groups can also integrate well. Each group enriches the culture. As long as they fit in and don't try to push their ideas on others they are welcome as far as I am concerned.

It is interesting how Jews can be criticised for remaining separate yet how would they be viewed if they tried to convert all the others? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. It is the Christians who are the non-assimilating group expecting all the others to accept their faith

Great piece Ghassan,

One comment from me - on what you wrote about assimilationists:

"And this is, paradoxically, what they desire - deep down. They scare people off. They drive them away. They make them hide. They force them to live outside mainstream society. And having done that, they then start telling the very people whom they’ve excluded that they are living in ghettos and that their problem is that they are not assimilated enough.

This is exactly what happened to Indigenous Australians over the last 150 years.

Paradoxically, when we (Indigenous people) get educated, speak and write better English than they do, aspire to have social and cultural and economic benefits, speak out loudly about social justice issues - we are quickly labelled as not being authentically Indigenous anymore.

Where they really want us to reside is in a cultural vacuum that they control because this ensures that they never have to become culturally competent beyond their own mono-cultural safety zone. What a bunch of losers!

Lets us look at the opposite end of the spectrum to those ugly assimilationists: at all those who don't chose to reach a form of accommodation with the host culture. In the same way as any other binary system: ie male/female, straight/gay, fascist/communist. When you start calling one side ugly, then the other side must be very attractive.

After all, if assimilationists are ugly, then those who refuse to assimilate must be extremely attractive.

Like those who refuse to learn, or use, English, even though they were born here - yes, I have seen them in court, educated here but claiming that they need an interpreter. Very non-assimilationist, but very appealing in comparison to those ugly ones on the other side, according to you.

Or those who use their culture to justify mistreatment of women - comparing Australian women - as sluts - to women of their own culture who are paragons of virtue. Very attractive in comparison with those ugly assimilationists, according to you.

Those who maintain dual citizenship, so that if things get uncomfortable for them here they can always run home. Very seductive in comparison to those who show their assimilationist ugliness by asking loyalty to the country that has accepted 'the other'.

We live in a democracy, that means that if someone wants to express the viewpoint that assimilation is best way towards the future, then they are allowed to say that.

Or are you attempting to deny the 'ugly' their democratic right to free speech?

Why not accept that there is ugliness on both sides, that both sides have an argument that they feel is worth putting forward, and calling someone ugly is just another form of flaming? Attack the policies, the attitudes, not the person.

That is a major value of Australian culture - freedom of thought - and speech.

Hamlet, you beat me to it. Ranier and Ghassan are angry indeed and have gotten little ole me, quite perplexed!

Now, let's see, would not the opposite to assimilationist be anti or non-assimilationist.

Gawd, so what's the definition of that?! Segregationist? Apartheid? Separatist? You should know Ranier since you as an "authentical indigenous" claim you are better educated than "them", meaning the assimilationists.

Strewth - here I go again. What's the definition of "authentical indigenous", Ranier?

Is it a full-blooded Aborigine; half caste or quarter caste?

If you are half caste or quarter caste, does that not mean that you are 50 or 75% something else?

Blimey, so why don't you mention the rest of your ancestry? Should one part of your ancestry be more important that the other?

I'm really wondering why you're all revved up, Ranier? No doubt you were educated by assimilationists - weren't you? And as you claim, to a standard superior to that "bunch of losers".

Ah Hah, perhaps I see more clearly. You've had fun exploiting all those assimilationists who so badly want to see everyone participate in this community by learning to become good Englishers and adopting the customs whilst retaining their own culture - true?

My black fella mates tell me that they are wary of the Aboriginal elite who are stirring up their brothers and sisters.

Do you see yourself as the elite, Ranier? Better get over it and stop your damn sookin'!!

Now there's a thought - perhaps you'd enjoy living in Zimbabwe or the Sudan. You wouldn't be bothered by those dratted assimilationists over there - would you?

Dickie

Your wondering why Rainier is all revved up?

Maybe because you have failed to see the point she is making?

Maybe because you have distorted her argument?
Rainier please correct me if I am wrong, (but for the sake of those like Dickie) the point you were making was that through the actions of these ‘assimilations’ you have learnt English and been exposed to ‘western culture’, so much so that makes up your national identity.
In turn the bigotry and labeling takes on a new form, it is not enough that you have ‘assimilated’ you then become the indigenous person who mustn’t be authentic (Yes Dickie AUTHENTIC) as you don’t fit the presumed stereotype of your ‘race’.

Words like ‘half caste’ (sic.) are a reflection of this deep rooted racism that exists with these ‘malicious assimilationist’. Like Ghassan suggests, these people ‘openly call on such people to integrate, while they secretly work to see them disintegrate’.

I am from a Lebanese ancestry and often times people are surprised when they discover this, ‘You don’t look or sound Lebanese?’

They are completely oblivious to their racial profiling, and I wonder how I can take this in any way other than an insult?

‘What do they (Lebs) look like?’ I ask

‘Actually, what do they sound like?’ I ask

I'm often met with surprise that I have taken offence to such a comment. It's more the ideology behind the comment, the presumption that an individual who does not fit the preconceived 'non-assimilated' stereotype ('Middle eastern appearance')is assumed to be either not of that race, or not 'authentically' from that race.

This is the evil of 'assimilationists' and the hypocrisy is that we shared most of your views to begin with. The battle is against the cultural boundaries that are being constantly created by those who cannot envision diversity.

- Dr. Ghassan Hage your work continues to be a great resource and inspiration

I've had Italians in Australia (note they don't consider themselves Australian) think I was Italian... guess what?

I never got offended.

I've had Australians think i'm English.

Guess what... no offence taken again.

I have heritage from O/S... but I was born here and consider myself Australian. Not a hyphenated Australian or someone from whence my relatives came from.

You think maybe you've got an attitude problem Jules?

No i don't have an attitude problem.

I guess context is everything, and for me t800 it is in a contemporary western-Sydney context, (where if your Lebanese-Australian, then your a terrorist or related to one) that I am placing my experiences.

I probably should have made that clear.

The point I was making in the other entry was that in certain conversations there is a negative stereotype that I have to constantly challenge. It's this challegning that I resent, I have to constantly re-affirm that 'No I don't fit a typical stereotype, but thats because that stereotype is wrong and unjust'

Again because I choose to call myself Lebanese-Australian (not denying my hybrid culture) I have to defend that right in this forum. I have to defend that right in society because there is a resentment that I think can only come from fear, that I somehow am compromising my Australianess if I identify somewhere else.

Maybe I was being a little forceful, being 'resentful' and 'offended' may be too strong.
Now I am just disillusioned

Dickie wrote, "Strewth - here I go again. What's the definition of "authentical indigenous", Ranier?

Is it a full-blooded Aborigine; half caste or quarter caste?"

Well thats my point exactly. When i don't make the right ideological statments i get judged via quatum blood sciences that were refuted years ago as invalid.

(for you info both my parents are Aboriginal with no known white ancestry) ...i know you're probably not used to having a blackfella write your own language this well.. there's a first time for everything brother.

back to the topic- When you do the same you don't get questioned using the same formula's.

Its because white people don't think 'white' is an ethnicity and everyone else that isn't becomes ethnic, coloured, black, brown, yellow etcetera...how weird is this?

Depite being only 20% of the world's population.

Get it?

recently I got in a taxi with a died in the wool old aussie taxi driver, within seconds he was telling me he hated all Lebanese.
"What, all of them?" I asked him.
"Yep," he said, confidently ( perhaps with just a touch of that other Aussie value - and I am a white aussie - self righteous smugness)
"Even the little babies?" I asked, and he looked at me in surprise, as a racist, seeing my colour and age, he assumed I'd agree with him, and his confidence slipped a little.
"Well.... maybe not all of them."
Is that another core aussie value? Stupidity?

ghassan & rainier have you ever considered taking a really cold shower-it really wakes you up. both of you are a brilliant example of how a mind can be manipulated by the closed circuit institutionalisation of tertiary education. your reasoning simply portrays another but merely parallel side to that of the assimilists. fyi i am a migrant and have lived 3/4 of my 55 years in indiginous communities. i can confidently tell you that you are way off the beaten track with your thinking. european bashing is as futile as is all prejudice. as others have stated you can not legislate to adapt values. values come from within and no matter how hard one tries one can not force values. if the understanding is not there in the first place there is nothing anyone can do. australian way, lebanese way, indiginous way whatever, we all rave on about respect and tolerance. we are preaching but we are not practising. see where it has gotten us to-date !

Rainier

This week, The West Australian's main topic has been on the Nyoongar people's landmark win, securing native title over the Perth metropolitan area and paving the way for a larger claim over the state's South-West.

In addition, "The Carpenter Government is behind a push for Aboriginals to gain control of a staggering 27 million hectares of WA - an area the size of Victoria".

And you, Rainier, will always play the victim! You should be rejoicing that this nation is attempting to correct the failings of past governments. It takes time, Ranier and common sense, but you will remain bitter and vengeful with the "poor me" attitude!!

I was raised in a humpy with a dirt floor, by a wonderful Mother who was deaf and partially blind. I was advised to commence my first job on the day I turned 14, to assist my family in abandoning the humpy and move on to better things. We did - and without assistance from any agencies. Am I whinging - not at all! In fact, I relate this story with much pride! As I said in a previous post, Rainier - stop your sookin' and cease denigrating your own people by bragging that you write better English than they do - some of your people far exceed your skills on the written word!

Ghassan - an excerpt from today's West Australian - Letters to the Editor: "It is now the Muslims' holy month when they all fast from dawn till dusk and when I return to the United Arab Emirates I will be expected to fast or to eat in the privacy of my home. Even though I don't follow their beliefs, if I am caught eating, drinking, smoking, playing music in my car or dressing inappropriately I will be fined or jailed. These are the terms and conditions of living in a Muslim country. It's their lifestyle and it sticks".

What was it you said about Australian values, Ghassan?

Dickie,

You seem to confuse me (perhaps deliberately) as 'playing the victim ' every time I simply point out the facts of the social, legal and racial control of Aboriginal people - including myself.

This 'victim playing' accusation is an old ploy that I’ve been accused of before. Its a useful rhetorical device that allows the accuser to avoid any conscious acknowledgement of the facts before them whilst singing up their own rugged individualism. Just as you have done.

I personally don't think I'm a victim, a fighter yes, but never a victim as this is someone who has conceded defeat. I never have & never will.

And it just so happens that I had the honour of sitting in the court with the Noongar people to hear Justice Wilcox's determination.

I rejoiced with them, we hugged and shook hands. It was a social justice victory I will never forget. I was truly honoured to be there with the soveriegn and traditional owners.

On the other side of the court I witnessed the hateful stares of people like yourself.

People who would have accused them of playing victim. Just like you.
And this nation is NOT attempting to right the wrongs of the past as you suggest- quite the contrary - Aboriginal people are litigating in courts for often small concessions because this NATION will not deliver of its own volition – just reparations. And how can you speak for the whole nation anyway?

As for my literacy skills - read my post again (doh!) - I was referring to the low expectations of white people like you rather than of my own.

And by the way - I don't believe for a minute you would know what a humpy looks like. You shouldn’t make things up just to qualify and support your belief in your own lies. That's very unAustralian, not true blue of you!

Rainier

Gawd blimey! I hope there aren't too many like you out there!! If there are, then our future sure is in jeopardy! Get some help, Rainier - pronto!

And the contents of your very defensive post - hatred, revenge!!

"On the other side of the court, I witnessed the hateful stares from people like yourself". What's a "hateful stare"? Did they say anything? Did you stare them out - give them the fingers in your victory? Oh boy, I trust you don't live in my part of the woods!

Is it your hatred of the "invaders" of this nation which compels you to declare: "I don't believe for one minute you would know what a humpy looks like". Wrong again, Rainier - why do you make such brash assertions?

Keep it up Rainier. I doubt your irrational and arrogant attempts to kick-start and incite dissension amongst your own or any other Aussies will afford you any credibility.

Dickie, Yawn! you gotta do something about your white middle class guilt. Puleese!

dickie, i have lived most of my life in indiginous communities and believe me rainier is rather smartly exploiting the ignorant academic nonsensical brainwashing whitlam legacy. sadly, he does not appear to have sufficient integrity to use his education to contribute in the struggle for a better society. instead he is using the knowledge provided to him by the very society he despises to perpetuate hatred for a reason he probably doesn't even know. maybe ghassam was in his ear. unfortunately rainier is not to blame for this mentality, the fault lies with the ignorant do-gooders for reasons which don't require an explanation to a sober observer. it saddens me when people claim victimisation (rainer if you can think of a more appropriate term please correct me) which did not actually happen to them personally. yes a lot of australian abborigines have had their way of life drastically altered a hundred or more years ago by people whose life was drastically altered too when they unwittingly became invaders but to claim discrimination in the past 50 years is plain hypocricy.

Pragma

Your posts reveal a refreshing insight into this debate and your innate wisdom brings to memory an old proverb:

"One cannot shake hands with a clenched fist"

I trust that the seditious Ghassan and the very racist militant, Rainier may reflect on the contents of that proverb.

Perhaps they will also reflect on the fact that no-one chooses their parents, their historical epoch or the country of their birth.

May I also remind them that if it wasn't for the sacrifice by mainly "white" Australians during World War one and two, it is unlikely that either of these whingers would be "suffering" in this wonderful country or gobbling on the fruits of our labour!

Hopefully, both these "victims" will buggar off for a while and give us a much needed break!

Prigma wrote

“rainier is rather smartly exploiting the ignorant academic nonsensical brainwashing Whitlam legacy”

Blimey! I know this must mean something, but it’s too cryptic for me to untangle – anyone reading this who has quals in psychotherapy and linguists, please feel free to enlighten me.

Is this is what happens when Right wingers implode? Do their heads spin while they type nonsensical words and phrases that only makes sense to them?

But wait there’s this little piece of wisdom (?)

“unfortunately rainier is not to blame for this mentality; the fault lies with the ignorant do-gooders for reasons which don't require an explanation to a sober observer”

Well blow me down! Unfortunately for me it seems I’m not to blame for this mentality I apparently have, my brain is not in my control but rather its them bloody do-gooders again.(whoever they are?) Ya gotta laugh at this

It’s also a wonderful reminder of how important OLO is in providing opportunities for everyone in our nation to make a statement, even if you can’t make sense of what they are on about. Yes even Right wing loonies need to be given a place to exorcise themselves and projectile vomit each other with praise.

Ghassan, after you pick yourself off the ground from belly laughing -post another one up will ya.
It seems these two posters haven’t got a life other than to react to our comments. Poor buggers

Blimey! I know this must mean something, but it’s too cryptic for me to untangle – anyone reading this who has quals in psychotherapy and linguists, please feel free to enlighten me.

rainier i appreciate your honesty and decency to admit that you don't understand. rather admirable. thanks for contributing in the battle against ignorance by encouraging others like ghassam to further expose the mentality of no merit. your remarks are the perfect tool to convey the sense of urgency for enlightenment. thanks again.
btw. in an earlier post you make reference to a 'humpy'. when you've learned how to build a humpy could you please post the plans ? feel free to consult ghassam to help you with the design. dickie, it's rather obvious that it is futile to try and make someone see sense when they're too full of indoctrinated hatred to allow themselves to even try.
rainier & ghassam, i hope the dawn of sensibility arrives for you soon. subject closed.

Dickie, I lost relatives fighting for this country, on the soil you stand on, not some distant shores and on the behest of other nation states and their agenda's, well before WW1. But you already knew this didn't you?

But still you want a moment of silence for your dead?
We could give you lifetimes of empty:
The unmarked graves
The lost languages
The uprooted trees and histories
The dead stares on the faces of nameless children
We could be silent forever
Or just long enough to hunger,
For the dust to bury us
And you would still ask us
For more of our silence.

http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/silence.html

Rainier writes in another of Ghassan's articles that he/she put Redneck's posts on a power point show for his/her 100 art students and "besides rolling around on the lecture room floor laughing at your ridiculous ideas................"

Is the above lesson part of the Arts' curriculum, Ranier. Is this why the taxpayer is expected to meet the costs of recurrent grants in education - for you to indocrinate students with your vicious agenda, rather than tutoring in art?

And so much time for posts, Ranier! All 662 of them. When on earth do you find time for marking and preparation for students or even for tutoring?

Is this the reason I have paid my taxes for 52 years - to allow you to bludge during working hours? Or is it part of your salary package?

God help us all and God help Australia - and I'm not even religious!!

Dickie, In modern academia, the arts are usually grouped with or a subset of the Humanities. Some subjects in the Humanities are history, linguistics, literature, philosophy, political theory, women's studies and liberalism. I've taught most of these at some time or another. Why not consider some study yourself? It might sharpen your analysis.

Pragma,

I am a little disturbed that you claimed to have intimate experience with living amongst Indigenous communities in Australia, and yet seem to display such denial and complete inapathy to the Aboriginal voice, (Note; Not Left voice!) It was actually quite amusing (and a little imperialistic) how you referred to the British colonialist invasion of Australia and subsequent slaughter and racial cleansing of the existing Aboriginal communities;

‘australian abborigines have had their way of life drastically altered a hundred or more years ago by people whose life was drastically altered too when they unwittingly became invaders’

Moreover your obvious insight (from personal experience that you have claimed) into the on-going social/welfare issues that indigenous communities face (especially those in rural areas) must be a great primary experience. I can’t help but ask if you were working in Aboriginal communities before or after they were counted as ‘flora and fauna’ on the Australian Census? Were you involved in these same communities before or after they had achieved the vote in Australia? That wasn’t too long ago…1963 I think?

‘it saddens me when people claim victimisation (rainer if you can think of a more appropriate term please correct me) which did not actually happen to them personally’ - Pragma

(cont)

(cont)

What exactly is your experience with indigenous culture? Often on this forum anyone who is not right-wing inclined in rhetoric gets easily labeled as writing left wing dribble and revealing indoctrination by ‘leftie’ tertiary institutions. That may very well be the truth, maybe I am biased, heck I know I’m not objective! I don’t claim to have the answers and my views come from my own experiences. Although for someone who is quick to point out the ‘indoctrination’ and obvious political sway of other bloggers, I am bewildered that you lived amidst indigenous communities and failed to have made any connection in cultural understanding. I wonder how the obvious effects of our colonial past resonated in those communities. I wonder how children and teens dealt with issues of racial prejudices that their extended families may have encountered and whether they took it personally? To be so unattached to an obvious continual discourse of post-colonialism and its negative effects on contemporary Aboriginal culture reflects a large bias on your behalf.
School yard bullying mentality taught me it was never fun being the ‘victim’, similarly indigenous Australians have been associated with negative stereotypes and social stigmas that continue in contemporary Australia. Somehow I don’t think they chose it? Or continue to do so. Unfortunately western capitalist mentality leads one to believe that it’s an equal playing field and there is opportunity there for all to health, education etc. The illusion of the ‘equal’ playing field never existed so unfortunately the ones left behind are denied the right to even be victims.
Let’s be accountable, at least Whitlam’s legacy left us with that

Good post and questions Jules.

I totally agree that its a convenience of Right Wingers to label any counter ideological view to there’s as Leftist, or in my case, be labelled as an indoctrinated, brainwashed, thinker from the Whitlam era.

The history and struggle for human rights and fairness and the oppressed, indeed the history of colonialism and political struggles against colonialism goes way back before the simplistic division [in political theory] of society as being either Left and Right.

The underlying racist assumption of Pragma's (and Dickie's) label of me being indoctrinated is that he does not believe Indigenous people can think for themselves or arrive at social and political comment independently without Left wing (white) peer tutelage. so entrenched is racism in their thinking that they fail to even identify its influence - its simply considered 'natural' to how one should make such pronouncements.

But what is more interesting is that I sense that deep down this disbelief in my own (and Indigenous people's) intellectual capacity to pronounce is a deep fear that we actually are human and have our own faculties (shock horror). Admitting this would be akin to committing political and psychological suicide - and under threat here is their own sense of identity as white people. Becoming culturally and racially competent in a wide range of social and cultural and racial environments is not their objective. Being xenophobic without appearing to be overtly racist is the go it seems.

The amusing aspect for me in the discussion so far is that both (P and D) appear to think that their comments are original and that I've read these so called revelations for the first time. LOL! Welcome to the real world lads!

“Well may we say god save the Queen, because nothing will save Dickie and Pragma from themselves.” (apologies to Uncle Gough)

rainier & jules21 your posts highlight the extent of desperation in which some extreme left guilt industrialists find themselves in to keep the race issue stirred up. since when is being a leftie an australian indigenous trait ? from my experience lefties generally are educated beyond their comprehension white hangeroners who bite the hands that feeds them. their attempts to project the impression as being on par with reputable academic achievers are unfortunately quite successful in remote communities. it enables them to deceive and exploit those unfamiliar with gobbledeegook jargon and political correctness. then there are those hypocrits who, under the pretence of being committed to stopping the exploitation of their people in remote communities but are actually collaborating with the aforementioned. i have personally witnessed the near total social destruction of communities conned and made dependeant on government funding by such callous uni drop-outs. they usually last about 18 months before they depart and leave the mess to us permanent residents. even worse is the fact that all this is taxpayer funded since the "uncle Gough" era.
jules21, please do not trivialise "lives were altered drastically" by referring to it as "quite amusing".

Hage Ghassan white nation: fantasies of white supremacy is full of imaginary philosophical crap. Im doing a law PHD, was reading it the other day and thought what a better way to waste time. In fact , other students couldnt agree more on what's more pathetic. Sadly, asians and other lovely immigrants from all around the world is taking over australia, australia to begin with was never meant to be a white nation. Basically, white squatters practically stole it from the indigenous then calling it their land. It was never rightfully white to begin with,there for it aint a white nation at all. sorry to burst your bubble.