“Throwing people in jail has never worked as a way to curb criminal behaviour.”

This is true only because the sentences are inadequate. “Throwing” people in jail is of no use unless offenders spend enough time without their liberty to reflect on their behaviour.

Ms. Biggs, like all the ‘experts’ wants aborigines to go back to working out their own problems, without the interference of dreadful white people. What a shambles that would be! In their isolated camps now, without adequate social services, health services and law enforcement, they are unable to do this. One recently publicised instance of how well aboriginals operate if left alone is the case of the man who sodomised his “promised” teenage wife, with the assistance of the girl’s grandmother. Biggs adds her own horror tales of abuse, but still thinks that aboriginal communities can work it all out from themselves!

She also makes the mistake of linking alcoholism to child abuse. The two do not necessarily go together; they are separate issues. Alcoholism doesn’t in itself lead to child abuse in the white community and, unless she still believes in the old myth that blacks cannot “take” the grog like whites, she is muddying the waters by linking the two. A drunk is a drunk irrespective of colour or location.

The very fact that aboriginal Australians were put into isolated camps by Whitlam - where they were supposed to live a “traditional” life and care for themselves- is the cause of the current problems. The sooner governments stop being afraid of offending people like Ms. Biggs and others who blame white Australia for everything, and get the inhabitants out of these nightmarish conditions which have nothing to do with tradition, the better.

There is no problem with the Aboriginal or Koori nation,the problem is white society and its governments,ALP or COALITION,that created the problems.

This is about Australian women and children who are being bashed and raped. This violence has been going on for years and everyone is too scared to do anything about it in fear of being called racist.
While everyone is trying to be precious and protect themselves, little kids are suffering. It's out of control.

Firstly do not misinterpret my comments as a denial of the extent of the carnage, nor do I believe I have a fix-all solution. However the current wave of moral outrage was initiated by the Liberal government to launch a range of dysfunctional and tokenistic programs, which they have in the last week including 40 kit homes (for the whole of Aboriginal Australia?) and Broughs exclusive summit. Right now federal money is being distributed to communities for "mens shelters". This whole thing is to set an hysterical assimiliationit agenda to lead into the next election. Moral outrage can be easily manipulated by any tyrant.

Brough and others have said there is no room for Aboriginal law but have not said what it is or why it is wrong.

re customary law which as I understand it includes notions of mens business and womens business. Whose business is domestic violence? Who does it and who has to change to stop it? It seems to me that domestic violence is 95% mens business, yet the whole agenda has been dominated by women, for women and from women's perspectives. This is another example of misdirected moral outrage. Women understandably enough have spoken out against abuse, but such speaking out has not stopped the abuse, it has just created a climate of moral outrage. Real structural change such as men directed strategies within customary law would be better, but the white paternalists, and feminist acedemics, will not tolerate such a paradigm shift.

Here is an example of how left wing and feminist acedemics dismiss any notion of customary law and prefer to cling to the same moral outrage illusions as Brough and Beattie

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/05/16/breaking-the-silence-on-violence-against-indigenous-women-and-girls/#comments

Reg Bygges Bottomly, one of the contributors on this thread was banned from posting on the list after this thread was closed down by the editors.

With the right and the left so stuck in their ways, where are the new ideas going to come from?

from Aboriginal Australia of course, if anyone could be bothered to take them seriously, which does not look likely in the short term.

I hope we are not driven into a situation of terrorism or war because of the intransigence of white power in Australia and it's inability to enact simple effective solutions to life and death issues for Aboriginal people.

Barbara has some good ideas, removing the perpetrator is a great step. However, the women whom she wants to take control, are currently part of the problem. True, forcing disgusting diet habits, degrading sociability, denigrating and removing their belief systems has contributed greatly to their plight.

Leigh, you've got no idea and seem to have this attitude that koori's are inferior and shouldn't be treated any different to normal society. You will find, child abuse and all forms of abuse are very closely related to alcohol and substance abuse, in all aspects of society. Alcohol and tobacco, are common denominators in family and social abuse.

We must remember, governments of today are purely devoted to economic outcomes for their vested interests and have no intention of doing anything but feathering their nests.

Secondly to not see that forcing an ancient culture to conform to a set of for them, stupid lifestyle choices, isn't going to cause long term problems, shows the low intellect of those that recommended this form of action and carried it out. The missionaries and churches that controlled the majority of indigenous culture for more than 100 years, thats where the true blame lays.

What must be done is to place these communities under protection and give everyone the opportunity to decide whether they wish to live a cultural life that is enhanced by modern technology, or become a part of the general community. Ban alcohol, tobacco, to allow the culture to revive itself. Remove all those that wish to grovel in the dirt of substance abuse and keep them away until they can return and enhance the community, not degrade it.

Much of the blame lies with the elders and hierarchy of some indigenous communities and organisations, they've given up their position as trustees of indigenous cultural evolution, to appease their ego's and develop their greed.

This isn't about who is left and who is right. It's not about politics, it's about Australians at risk and what can be done to address the problem.

Andrew Bolt,and his pupils,must be.living in a different world,I read his column in every issue of the Herald Sun,and the ignorant letters these pupils of the teacher,Andrew Bolt.write to him,the Aboriginal nation is always their target,and the teacher delights in their stupidity,and some of his answers to them,are so negetative,but pointing it out to him,IST VERRBOTEN,but we just have to keep on telling him just how wrong he is,even if the Herald Sun,and its editorial board,fail to publish comments,that prove him wrong.To get rid of RACISTS,never let them have their way,let them know that IGNORANCE,breeds STUPIDITY.

Racist! What a marvellous overworked word that has become. If anyone tries to improve a bad situation ,they are Racist! If they sweep it under the rug, they are Racist.
This isn't about Race, it is about little children ,big children and grown ups who are going backwards at a fast rate.
For three generations the academics and activists have held the floor and all they have created is misery and chaos.
Now it is up to the government to sort out the mess and make sure that all Australians have the same chances.
It will take years to clean up the results of those who would deny Aboriginal Australians the same degree of life as we know it.
And keep the academics and activists as far away as possible. They have done the damage, let them not do any more.

It's very strange to realise that the same government that legislated child abuse in places like Woomera and then turned a blind eye to it now express moral outrage at a situation that has existed for decades.

Leigh is right that it is not just alcohol - my own white father and grandfather molested me and my sisters for 6 years whether drunk or sober and I don't think the pedophile priests and church and school workers in nice white schools are all drunks.

The dongas being taken from Woomera to Alice are the most insulting thing I have heard in years. These dongas are just tin lined with a a thin veneer of wood, people in Woomera nearly froze to death in winter and boiled in summer when it reached over 50 degrees inside.

However, child rape is child rape whether the person doing it is black, blue, green or brindle and with stats showing that 1 in 3 girls in Australia are molested before they are 18 this is not an "aboriginal" problem. It is an Australian problem that no government has even tried to tackle.

I have been told that it takes great moral courage in Australia today to tell the truth about these things and the question I pose is this - why should it not be the norm in these days of mandatory reporting and why did Nanette Rogers sit on the stories for a decade?

i thought some of leigh's ideas sounded very worthwhile. how about separate councils dominated by women (as educated as possible) with assistance and counselling available where needed, as well as checks with these couuncils as to how they are working? as well, funding for safe houses sounds like a terrific idea. it must be a very small minority of women who assist in perpetrating these abuses but many seem afraid to speak up. possibly, consultation amongst themselves with sensitive outside, non invasive assistance they would.

sorry, i meant barbara's ideas sounded terrific

Australians are constitutionally equivalent, but for those who are indigenous, also. That is, they are indigenous in addition to being constituionally equivalent and yet their prevalence at the bottom rung of social privilege is unambiguous.

It would seem that indigenousness (in Australia) is a social liability. Does this mean that Australia socially discriminates against its indigenous people and can it possibly be interpreted in any other way?

Social deviance is predisposed by a perception of inequity.

Barbara's idea from the Queensland "Safe House" sounds like it works because it is organised, run and maintained by the women to protect themselves and the children. At the same time, there needs to be eductation for the boys. No means no, and sex abuse is wrong in both cultures. It is up to the boys in a young age to change the cycle to change their ways that will make a big difference. The elders need to confirm that rape in their culture is not acceptable either. This is not an issue that European Australians can impose a foreign legal system on aboriginal people. This will only be met with cultural a firewall anyway. The only way it will work is within their own culture, and I think they can do it for themselves, even if they need some consultancy and some resources.

While this debate rages, I hope that people remember that for many years Indigenous people have been saying that child abuse etc is a problem.

Boni Robertson (Qld) and Sue Gorden (WA) wrote reports on the topic in recent years. But it is not until it is stated by non-Indigenous people that the topic is able to spark outrage.

Public outrage has seen the police begin to act. Why has it taken so long for action?

The problems were there for years and the police were there for years.

I am concerned that the many decent and trustworthy Inidgenous men are being denied a place in this debate.

Aboriginal women and children need strong decent and trustworthy men for their wellbeing. Just as the men need strong decent and trustworthy women and children for their wellbeing.

Indigenous women have been speaking out for a long time - but need the men to stand beside them in confronting this issue.

So please make an intellectual space for the many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander men to speak out against this abomination.

Aka means grandmother

Leigh's realism is commendable. Barbara Biggs's irresponsibility is typical of journalists given the chance to fill op-ed space with their mostly fanciful and even self-contradictory ideas. (A basic contradiction has people in government or Aborigines with resources like ATSIC, after 40, or 170 years of comprehensive failure, fulfilling her wish list).

But Leigh is wrong on indigenous people and alcohol. They can't handle if for easily understood reasons. Consider the superior way that Jews and Mediterranean people, with their 10,000 years to breed out the village drunk, handle alchohol compared with drunken Northern European louts after only 4000 years. Native Americans, Inuits, and almost all other indigenous tribal people have the same extreme problem as Australian Aborigines.

Leigh's tough-minded refutation of Barbara Biggs's fatuous “Throwing people in jail has never worked..." deserves support (largely insoluble or merely very difficult problems that excite the rhetoric of those who enjoy moral outrage commonly elicit fatuity; the Alchemist's contribution below will serve to illustrate the point**). US stats since the height of the crack cocaine epidemic, for all that the homicide rate remains horrendous, provide the proof, albeit at the expense of locking up about a third of African American 16 to 28 year old males.

**When "The Alchemist" writes "We must remember, governments of today are purely devoted to economic outcomes for their vested interests and have no intention of doing anything but feathering their nests" he proves that his ivory tower has never been visited by a real live politician or bureaucrat.

IMHO we could find the money but not the people or proven workable ideas. So pilot projects make sense now. But, unless anyone can believe in revival of ancient Aboriginal culture, assimilation to the modern is the only way for all those children whose degraded elders can do little for them. Boarding schools are the only answer that has ever had a good record in the past. Why not ones to which mothers or guardians could attach themselves, at least periodically for some weeks as helpers and perhaps as adult education students themselves?

The only thing that will work is they are treated the same as us in every way.

We blew it by letting them have heaps of money with them in charge.
People blame the white for the mess.
Yes thats right it is our fault because we let them bully us into running this country by tow sets of rules.

one Australia and bring in the Army to sort them out and give the army the power to use the funds.
Take kids being abused.
Just find a backbone.
They dont have to all hobble together and need placeing in housing amoung us to mix in and work in the many jobs available in this country.

Dream Time is over.

TBG, your own statement, provides evidence for what I say, by advocating more pilot programs which is just the bureaucracy saying, give them something to look at and it will go away. The bureaucratic and political approach is to have an inquiry, develop a pilot program that gives bureaucrats lots of money, travel and extra facilities. But gives nothing of substance to those needing help to cope

You certainly have no understanding of culture nor how it relates to ones approach to life, when it relates to a very old and stable culture thats been bastardised by religion, decimated by commercial interests, (grog, junk food and tobacco sellers, mining and grazing) and fobbed of by politicians and bureaucratic elite. Simple solutions from simple minds. No inquiry, pilot program or more money will help, money doesn't solve cultural and social issues. Its compassion, understanding and worthwhile long term development of situations, that encourage the indigenous to evolve their culture and become part of society at a rate that allows adaptation, not assimilation.

I have no time for city kooris who whinge and moan about their lot, they have more support and resources that the average person available to them. The problem lies in the vested interests of politicians and bureaucrats who live so far from reality, that they can only see themselves and their next pay packet.

You can see this in giving bureaucrats priority in childcare above others, higher salaries than most workers, less work, more perks and constant stuff ups and resource waste they create. More than any other organisation in the country. Look what they've done to immigration, health, transport, defence, indigenous affairs, local government, show me one bureaucratic department or politician that functions in the best interest of the people.

FightDemBack are just like Dem. Don't worry I'm on topic just taking a dig at another lot of hypocrites.

Funny when white middle-class priests and private school kiddie fiddlers were being flushed out there was no talk of taking the children away. No talk of closing down the schools and sending kids to public schools, which are more accountable and more transparent. Little moral outrage from the church - none from the "white boots" brigade.

The word on the street is that all the extra funding to the churches and schools counter balanced the compensation claims and legal fees. I other words tax payers indirectly funded the predators.

No we're not racist-just crazy. (Real anti-racists).

This article is typical of someone who lives in la la land. It is obvious the early missionaries had it right when they wanted the best for the aboriginal children. The author lives in la la land. Her article is typical of someone who sometimes 'visits' communities believing that these people can work out their own problems. I personally work reguraly with indigeneous men and woman. Wake up to the fact that even the aboriginal woman can't resolve this issue. Whether white or black child abuse needs to be treated as a great crime.

After 30 years of Governments throwing money at the problem with the fear of being labelled racist the problem is as bad now as it was before white settlement. Maybe we knee a knee jerk re action instead of another study to try and take away the blame of those committing these crimes.

The much maligned Andrew Bolt seems to make more sense than those racists who refuse to protect children in order to prove some erroneous theory that the whites are to blame for the problems.

The Alchemist rejects pilot projects because they do nothing but provide money and jobs for unworthy bureaucrats but my suggestion of pilot projects merely emphasised the need for those with the money and power but no real clues about what might work to start with small carefully researched programs.

The Alchemist then says two things:

1. Aborigines had "a very old and stable culture thats been bastardised by religion, decimated by commercial interests, (grog, junk food and tobacco sellers, mining and grazing)" which soundslike saying that modern Aborigines, when still living as a group, no longer have a stable culture and don't have one that anyone could rely on to help them - or, particularly, their children - cope with modern life.

2. "No inquiry, pilot program or more money will help, money doesn't solve cultural and social issues. Its compassion, understanding and worthwhile long term development of situations, that encourage the indigenous to evolve their culture and become part of society at a rate that allows adaptation, not assimilation." !! How that can mean anything when put beside quote 1. I cannot understand. Equally if put against the facts of "their culture" now being the appalling level of criminality, sexual abuse, lack of education and skills and total demoralisation to be found in so many communities where Aborigines' culture is the dominant one (and who can say that there is now one culture as The Alchemist implies, unless it be total depravity of a level so low that no community can be lower than another).

If you insist on resisting assimilation to modernity via boarding schools (compare the English-speaking boarding schools in India almost entirely now run by Indians for Indians if you don't like the image of an old-fashioned Mission school)kindly give a realistic picture of how Aboriginal culture, 2006 version, could evolve and travel the path to showing non-assimilated Aborigines how to live an economically viable existence, enjoying vigorous good health, education to a high level and self-respect as any white person not born to drunken druggy underclass parents can reasonably expect or aspire to.

Wendy Lewthwaite – you must be an interesting person to dictate penalising the victims.

Wow you must be pretty special to want everyone to be converted to be in your image – just like 'us'.

Who exactly is it you mean when you say ‘us’?

I doubt that I am like you.

You are talking from the past white Australia/assimilation policy. It was proven to be a dud as it caused more problems.

Rather than suggesting that the Dream time is over I suggest that you get back in your bed and go back to sleep.

Oh you might want to take off your white boots so the mud on them doesn’t dirty your sheets.

TBG
Your comments are poorly thought out and offensive. I suggest you inform yourself about the stolen generations, the white Australia policy etc before you comment.

The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Women’s Taskforce on Violence Report (Qld 2000) demonstrates that the state does not protect Indigenous children either.

One woman, who was about 40 in 1999, tells of how she was made to work for a farmer who sexually enslaved her. The farmer tied her up under the house like a dog and beat her terribly. The farmers wife did nothing. The abuse only stopped when the farmer died.

Figure out the dates and think - What were you doing and what was your life like at this time?

All Australians have to work to address the issues of child abuse and challenge the environment in which it festers.

TBG,

I must agree with Aka. Your ideas will just create another "Stolen Generation", and perhaps even another avenue for abuse. You wouldn't remove a middle-class Anglo-Celtic child from their family because an uncle/aunt or teacher/priest abused them.

As has been pointed out, this is not necessarily just an indigenous issue but a general issue, but unlike the general community, cannot be dealt with through the criminal justice system. Just the idea that it must be dealt with in a different way infers 'racism'...

Aka.....
"The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Women’s Taskforce on Violence Report (Qld 2000) demonstrates that the state does not protect Indigenous children either.

One woman, who was about 40 in 1999, tells of how she was made to work for a farmer who sexually enslaved her. The farmer tied her up under the house like a dog and beat her terribly. The farmers wife did nothing. The abuse only stopped when the farmer died......."

I am not saying you are not telling the truth - but hearsay is still only hearsay and innuendo - provide a link to this accusation please - or have you just taken some journalistic license

The latest report has several hundred men rioting in Wadeye and the removal of children and women at risk is being mooted.
Wouldn't it be more realistic if the rioters were removed ,then the children could get on with their schooling and the women would stay in their own homes?
The rioters could be kept away until they made up their minds to be peaceful and let back only when and if the elder women said so. Work programmes would need to be put in place, to maintain the property and to build new houses.
Does that sound workable?

And after sexual abuse, the victim is primed for the ratchet up to the next level of abuse . From those children come the fodder for state sponsored prostitution. Fourteen is the average age for entry into prostitution and the sex industry. An industry inclusive of child pornography, prostitution, paedophilia and other sick forms of human abuse. Women desperately need to capture the agenda on this issue. The solution is only in their hands.
A fact proved in Sweden by changes to the laws of prostitution making the offence of soliciting legal, and the purchasing of women for sex illegal. That one move sent the brothel industry scurrying. This simple move was achieved in that country by women claiming the political agenda and now women in parliament constitute half of the elected government. That achievement has given women a meaningful voice on such social issues. Thank you Barbara for showing care towards abused children.

This article reads like the usual bleating whines of a professional apologist.

To be honest the best advert for resuming the historic practices which resulted in the “stolen generation” is the patent and chronic inability of these people to care and nurture their own children.

Better “stolen” than left to be broken and betrayed by an abusive parent.

Anyone who suggests that these abuses be left to be dealt with by “tribal and customary law” would likely condone cannibalism as quaint and traditional custom.

If Australia is to be seen as one nation and not two, we need to assert the full measure of the prevailing laws of this one nation instead of mincing around with the demented notion that “tradition and custom” can somehow excuse the evidence of a litany of child abuse. whilst "white mans law" might put some aboriginals under "duress" it is clear that the "duress" faced by children under "black mans law" is far graver, damaging and lethal.

AKA your wrong I am a third generation farmer. Lived with aboriginal people worked with them and my dad was an old bullock team driver so i dont have white shoes.
We are all the same was my point. The only thing wrong with aboriginal people is that they delude themselves by not holding the aboriginal leaders responsible for blowing millions over the years which was meant for them
they need to look in the white pages under Australia and find jobs wherever those jobs are.
Its called having a go and not expecting something for nothing[just because they are aboriginal]
Likewise we should give each family a block of land or farm and help set them up in herbs vegetables farming of all sorts.

Thats what they really need

Interesting article followed by many predictable postings. Lock em all up they say, that will fix em. Well, plainly, no it won’t.

How many times must people like Leigh and ‘mickijo’ be shown statistics showing that incarceration does nothing but increase criminality in the community? It increases the likelihood of reoffending, creates fatherless children, and the problems precipitate. Any crime statistics freely available on the net illustrate my point.

I think the suggestions of the author are constructive. And the government’s response, whilst unsurprising, have been ridiculous. Mal Brough is running around Australia carrying on like the government has just found out about these problems. HUH? It is this damn government that have allowed these problems to get worse, and could also be said to have actively contributed to the denigration of Indigenous Australians through their abolition of ATSIC and unrelenting stance on Native Title.

The problems will continue until well worked, coordinated, grass roots solutions are developed. Locking up the ‘rioters’ as mickijo says will not solve any problems, as the author cites – it will merely leave behind the next generation of rioters or abusers. For example, if you own a shop, and your front window is smashed and you get robbed, you don’t just lock up the robbers and leave it at that. You fix the damn window!

Having a politician visit or throwing $$ at the problem effectively will make it worse, but I bet any $$ it is what we’ll get from the Libs

jkenno. The best Thing the Government ever did for aboriginal people was to get rid of ATSIC. Yes you are right we sure need to all get involved in helping the aboriginal people instead of this massive aid going to other countries. The best way to help them is to help them help themeslves by offering jobs and education.

Any constructive donations of progects from you and others would be a great help.
The government had a softly softly approach treating them as different to the rest of Australians which has made the problem much worse.
Now is the time for us to all work together to fix it .
Here is one of our progects to put jobs back into their soceity www.halakindmeats.com
Vegie farms free range cattle their own abattoirs their own herbs costemtics arts and crafts furniture fishing industry crab farms fish farms, tourism are a few things that need to be established in a hurry.
If the commericial world like Packers and Murdock the LeCourts who have property up their wanted to donate some building material and progects on one dollar blocks of land from the government that would be a big help.
I know a few builders that would donate some time for work progects so they can all take part in building their own homes. Its doable with everybody working together.

Kekenidika,

I am not real good at the link thing but I am sure you will be able to copy this link.

A copy of the report should be in Qld libraries and would probably be able to be ordered in other states. The only thing is that it is a read there book.

The incident I refer to is on Page 75-76. The link is to a pdf so I presume that the pages will be the same.

http://www.datsip.qld.gov.au/resources/publications.cfm

AHHH Wendy,
now I get the picture, you have plans that involve yourself leading Indigenous Australians back from the wilderness. for a fee no doubt.

Giving them land - now that is a novel idea - will it be their traditional land?

You are happy with the demise of ATSIC - but using the same criterea used to justify it, the defence force and AWB would have been shut down.

Wendy from your brief outline of your life - I know that I am not like you. Please do not include me in your grandious statement 'us'.

Like I suggested earlier, back in your bed, maybe with a downloaded copy of the report (link above), but wipe the dung off your white boots first.

AKA and Narcissist: before criticising please read carefully and switch the brain on for a while. You refer to the "Stolen Generation" ** as though it had something to do with what I said. Though what you said was vague I presume you objected to my favouring a good modern education in boarding schools).

**Also, AKA, to the White Australia policy. Totally irrelevant and I bet I know a lot more about it than you do.

Who said anything about "stealing" or imposing anything on any sane non-criminal adult (especially mothers). Like Archbishop Barry Hickey talking on Late Line last night about boarding schools for Aboriginal children I specifically referred to ways of including the parents or guardians (particularly mothers). If you claim to know anything about Aboriginal life in those desperate outstations (and other depressed communities too)do you really believe that mothers wouldn't be delighted to send their children to a campus where they got good education and diet and sport - and where there were cottages for family to come and stay at least periodically? As a member of a family in which three generations went happily to boarding schools I know that some parents resist the idea and some children don't like it, but, for the most part, it works well. Given the alternative in this case, is it a moral alternative to sit an stew?

And Narissist: I would recommend exactly the same for any underclass community of any ethnic description. And, though you failed to notice that I wasn't recommending coercion, I would recommend coercive removal of children of white middle-class parents who couldn't protect their children. That's what welfare departments do, although one has to be sceptical about the reliability of their judgments - that is the uncertainty of life and human nature.

You say of child abuse "Just the idea [sic] that it must be dealt with in a different way infers [sic: I think you mean <implies>] 'racism'... " Since the "idea" is entirely yours should I infer that you are whatever you mean by that tendentiously but sloppily overused word "racist"?

AKA,

The link you provided does not lead to any 2000 reports - omly latter dates - and the only .PDF link there was Queensland Government response Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Women's Task Force on Violence Report PDF (680 KB) ....http://www.datsip.qld.gov.au/pdf/thefirststep.pdf. - this did not lead to your provided pasting.

Again if you wish to further your cause, you must provide an accurate link - all you have to do is go back to where you saw tha page (even in a .PDF format) copy that link and post it.

As for your somewhat cutting remarks as to Wendy's post, you are somewhat misguided and your remarks not only baseless, but somewhat prejudiced. There is enough evidence that the Aboriginals were not the original people here in Australia, but also invaders and they killed off many of the originals inhabitants as well - no great shame in that as I would have no doubt that in those days, might was right and god as usual was on the side of the winners. It is also my information, that not to many Aboriginal peoples were farmers - but hunter gatherers - you can distinct between the two groups can you not...?

I, for another, am glad to see the demise of ATSIC - it was endemic with graft corruption and power players, and the top end was riddled with thieves and crooks, who like any politician did not give a rats arse about the common people - except when it came time for elections and handouts.ANd yes - that goes for the AWB as well, who needed the COLE inquiry to tell them the difference between the Chaff and the trucking fees.

As for Wendy, I do not know her - I am not even certain if I would even like her personally - but sure as hell I would rather sit at a table and hear her propositions - and be certain I would not get a knife in the back like many others here would.

This whole issue is shameful. There are people living in other countries with no homes, no welfare system, and no medical. They work really hard to look after their family (no government handouts). They live clean and tidy, they grow vegetables and have chickens. What is wrong with Australians, why have we got this gift mentality that we don't have to try. We expect everything to be handed out and blame everyone when something goes wrong.
These people are bored. They need to work, they need a purpose. They need to take better care of their homes, their health and their families.

Kekenidika
I just clicked onto the link http://www.datsip.qld.gov.au/resources/publications.cfm I scrolled down and the report is “Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Women's Task Force on Violence Report” and it is immediately above the Qld govt response.

Try this one though http://www.datsip.qld.gov.au/pdf/taskforce.pdf it should lead you straight to it.

I am pleased that you are prepared to look for the reference, and I encourage you to read the entire report.

Be warned though, this report is distressing. Even more distressing is that so few of the recommendations have been addressed.

As for Wendy, I am sure she is able to cope with people who dissagree with her.

I think the problems of Indigenous Australia are cause by double standards.No amount of money will fix that.When theres no equality in society,then people can do what ever they want.And so-call "mis-fits"immigrants or who ever, can't be blame either,only the men &women who commit crimes against the innocent can.

Lock them-up and turn the key like we do with everyone else Aboriginal,mix-race,black &white.People are to concern with protecting public images.

Sometimes yes u do have to lock people up. Other times help them in many different ways. AKA and the other name u invented i can always tell when somebody has another agenda.Yep blocks of land for a dollar through joint council and government programes along with building materials and investors from overeas to get little towns on the map, safe houses for women and kids and share farms for just about anything u can think of and tourism.

No I dont even draw a wage for my project work as my pashion is helping animals aged people and aboriginals. The aboriginals will be paid AKA. However since you dont think anybody should make a living I take it that u will work 7 days a week for free as I do to help your people .
Is That right.?
Anybody who has a better idea on getting jobs for regional ares please just do it as I am. Oh and by the way nobody pays our office outgoings which come out of my pocket. The only problem we have is we cant find any aboriginal people willing to work for free like us but I am sure they are out there. Funny about that isnt it.This post is not about imagration .

AKA
Thanks for the revealing link and I often go to links firstly to disprove what they are trying to prove, but reading only a little part is as you say disturbing , because you failed to advise that she was 5 when she was removed - and only 14 when she had been whipped and raped constantly. The family that perpetrated this shame should be outed and their reputations shredded.

I also read (Page 130.) that during the period 1993-1998 of the 76 murders in Queensland, 26 victims(34.2%) and 36 (47.3%) [love those statistics] OFFENDERS were A.T.S.I. I feel that this is disproportionately high - and there is no way this attitude can be blamed onto anyone else except their own attitudes - this is about 10 times more than the rest of the population. If you take a look at the data on page 132 with comments on page 133, it is obvious that many parents do not give a damn and exercise no control – maybe they are the rapists and the ones who are committing the unreported cases of incest

On page 137 sexual abuse of young girl rates between 70% and 80% - but incest was a high 50% - while Judges and senior Barristers seem to accept that as a norm, rather than take any action like some severe jail time for the offenders as would happen in society down south – WHY??

Are they afraid of more suicide deaths in custody because they are locked away from their victims? What were the suicide victims in custody for in the first instance? – I see not data on them and people do not want to mention the dead as a sign of respect – if they raped, then their memory needs no respect – if they have raped their daughters, they deserve even less respect – only condemnation!

There are just too many footnotes to be able to go through and do any justice to a reply here, but in short, how can you expect any recommendations to be of any effect

Wendy,
I am sorry to inform you that I do not use any other alias. Your instincts have let you down this time.

I use Aka, as that means Grandmother. I am a very proud grandmother.

I do NOT use AKA as that stands for Also Known As.

Surprisingly, many Aboriginal people do work for free, just look at the CDEP figures.

I have not commented on your other interests on this thread.

If you are interested in helping Aboriginal people, then I suggest that you read the report, links above, and maybe even search for the WA one by Sue Gordon (I think).

It would be good to see you better informed.

Rather than insist on punitive and coercive paternalist solutions, I suggest you become more informed.

I suggest that if you are prepared to walk and work alongside Aboriginal people,you would be welcome

I have no need to prove anything to anyone, I prefer to back away should the occasion be there, as my training is structured, that I cannot attack – I do not pre-emptively defend, I just defend myself.

I personally have been attacked on more than one occasion, none were reported because unfortunately for them I do not drink and I just left them on the ground – but unfortunately not many people can defend themselves against a pack of drunks.

I note without surprise on page 141-144 of this report, that (and I am sorry to be selective)
“Injuries play a major role in Indigenous morbidity and mortality. Moller et al. (1996)
reported that Indigenous peoples of all ages had a much higher rate of hospitalisation as a
result of interpersonal violence (1388 per 100,000) than do the non-Indigenous population (81 per 100,000).” – “The issue of violence is of critical concern to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.”

….” many are already into a cycle of grog, drugs and substance abuse. Young girls as young as 12 and 13 are selling themselves in exchange for some of the aforementioned. A number of teenagers are pregnant at this time; the youngest is 14 years. Family life is disintegrating. Grandmothers are often burdened with looking after grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. Many children would never attend school for five days running. Something is drastically wrong with the education, especially in the high school. We will have a community of illiterates in a few years time unless the situation is addressed. An effort is being made to introduce some youngsters to corroboree but many others show no interest. A very wise Aboriginal man said in recent times:‘ The old people have closed their mouths and the young people have closed their ears.’
(ABRIDGED)

Obviously throwing money at it is a cop out, force to make them change and send in the army is an Indonesian solution - shoot the bloody lot until they are peaceful.

Maybe the ideas of Wendy Lewthwaite need a closer scrutiny – leave her boots out of the equation.

Kekenidika,
thank you for taking the time to read, and think about this report.

I would encourage people to read it, as it is not a cop out but very honest report carrying the voice of the women [and men] who want the violence to stop.

I wear thongs on my feet most of the time, but if you want to walk alongside Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in their fight against violence - then I don't think anyone will notice what you have on your feet :)

Kekenidika
I admire your tenacity and open mind.
Warm regards

Whatever town,community,or area you name where indigenous people live is the same all over.
Drunks,dole bludgers,boredom,filth,crime, petrol and glue sniffing ,sexual abuse from babies to teens ,no morals or guidance.

Whites making a fortune from selling alcohol to all of them and woman bashing common in the past 50 years,killing,sex diseases in kids and regular deaths from Mornington,Qld , to Darwin,Broome,Fitzroy Crossing,Hall's Creek,Carnarvon,Geraldton,Burunga NT etc.

Alcohol free communities 100 kms away froma pub,but taxis (Paid for by taxpayers) deliver the grog outside the communes where they get drunk then go home to beat up the missus and kids.

Sexual penetration to kids was recorded 50-60 yrs ago in communities around Kalgoorlie and Laverton seen by white prospectors as Aboriginal men digitally stretched little girls vaginas when questioned said "We get them ready for marriage one day",still goes on.
The only hope is to stop tribal laws in Oz and bring Christian Aboriginal eledrs into preach love and Jesus .
About 18 years ago "60 Minutes", had a programme on announcing a break through with Aboriginal People going dry in Halls' Creek by the hundreds when Brother Max Wiltshire preached Jesus Christ and forgiveness and love to them,
There was a revival of Christianity,sanity,and peace came on that town.
So let's pray for that again.

AKA. point taken. Sorry i thought you were my old mate who i argue with regarding money to migrants before aboriginal people. It really annoys me because of course they must come first.. i still say we should be making arrangments with all the councils to supply cheap land. they did it in the 60s so why not now. The problem is that no matter how hard they work on the propperties they never get a chance to leave their house to their kids. Ararently the government said they can live it them but not own them. At least thats the case on Palm Island anyway. this stinks. Its an utter discrace. No wonder why many lack pride and interest to do anything. They should be able to pay them off like anybody else. The other thing is we need direct hands on help such as building materials and training . If we stay away from donating to the charitys who take administration costs and give help direct we might get some place.
pity the churches cant roll up their sleeeves instead of passing the plate isnt it.
I mean they send plenty of helpers overeas what about our own.

You are on the right track, Barbara, it is forcing our Aborigines to assimilate too quickly that is a big part of the trouble. Rather than ostracising them for not behaving like us whites, or behaving more like dead-beat whites, may be we should be trying to steer them the right way more gently, rather than gaoling so many of them.

Possibly special financial assistance for interested Indigines to study with social scientists, who no doubt could also do with more commonsense dealing with Aboriginal problems.

As one who has had Aboriginals working for him, there has to be a sort of gentle humour involved, rather than using harsh language. Just watch their eyes to guage their feelings which often too quickly show hurt.

We must try to work accordingly.

The things you have said are out of context.