It is responsible and timely to acknowledge that violences exists on both sides of the conflict. Wherever conflict exists.

Statehood for Palestine. Statehood for Israel.

The history of this region, and the history of this conflict spans millenium and generations.

Many nations have had a hand in the formation of the situation we see today. Russia, France, Britain, Turkey (Ottomans), the Vatican.

The US administration is mindful of the large group of political donors and supporters of Israel that influences US decisions. (Australia just follows whatever the US says).

We can take heart that Hamas has a vast social agenda. helping its people by building schools, hospitals and other institiutions.

We can take heart that after many years of violent struggle in Ireland we are seeing acceptance.

We must however remember that the concept of revenge -'the killing of civilians must be punished by the killing of civilans'- has to end.

And we must remember that Israel in not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and has a nuclear programme.

Having been to Palestine on many Occasions i can only AGREE there is Double Standard at every corner the American Leaders do not Understand that Peace is a two way Tango not one for the Jews and a separate one for the Arabs they are the same People they originated the same Way By the way i am not Arab......

I love America's definition of democracy.

You are free to choose anyone you want, but if you choose someone we don't like, we won't give you aid and you can go bankrupt

Very democratic

Hamas was elected because Fatah couldnt deliver basic services let alone progress on the flawed and inadequate roadmap. In looking after its mass of political hangers-on, Fatah was essentially corrupt but the West kept on supporting it without trying to sort out the Palestinian Authority's blatant governance problems. Israel and the West are largely responsible for the election of Hamas but that is a diplomatic unmentionable. Here's what a famous Zionist said on reaching a solution:-

ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS

Since both sides begin with a claim of total possession of Palestine as their historical right; and since neither claim can be accepted within the realms of realism or without grave injustice: it is plain that compromise, i.e. partition, is the only correct solution, along Oslo lines – for supporting which Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish bigot.
Ideally, what we are calling for is a relationship of good neighbours, but given the number of bigoted, terrorist chauvinists on both sides, this is impracticable.
The solution must lie somewhat along the lines of reluctant toleration, for fear of far worse – i.e. a savage war which could inflict irreparable damage on both sides.
As for Jerusalem, it must remain the capital of Israel, with the Muslim holy places being extra-territorial to a Muslim authority, and an Arab quarter, with a guarantee from the United Nations of preserving that position, by force if necessary.
ISAIAH BERLIN
16 October 1997
And if that is obvious to a distinguished Zionist scholar, why cant it be the basis for a two state solution and a lasting peace. The "Made in America" roadmap is simply another part of the Bush administration's dysfunctional Middle East policy and is no basis for any lasting settlement

Actually the claims made by both side easy to check. When you do you find the Palestinian have a very strong case and the Israelis have a weak on. the Zionist have fooled many people into believing that the Jew need a home land of their own. Adding to take the god bothers believe fairy tails about god giving them the land. The fact is Semitic Arabs whether they Jews , Christians or Muslims have live side by side in relative harmony. Most trouble in the area is cause by people from outside forces including Zionist which was largely an American Jewish movement.

An excellent analysis of the insufferable double standards that characterise mainstream 'thinking' on this issue. We know that to characterise this conflict as a case of irrational Palestinian/Arab/Muslim terrorism vs rational Israeli counter-terrorism is a gross misreading of its dynamics. But so too is the characterisation of Israel as a democracy. In 1947, when Palestine was partitioned into a Jewish and an Arab state, there were as many, if not more, Palestinian Arabs in the Jewish state as Jews. They were entitled to citizenship in the 'Jewish state'. To achieve a state with a demographic Jewish majority, however, those potential citizens, as non-Jews, were ethnically cleansed by Zionist forces under cover of war in 1948-49 beyond the borders of the Jewish state. There they remain today, disenfranchised, denationalized and stateless in refugee camps. Only when they're allowed to return to what today we curiously call 'Israel proper', and participate in the democratic process as full citizens of that country, will Israel become a genuine democracy.

Palestine Israel should be Called only Palestine one State for all Jews Arabs and Christians alike Israel the Jewish State no way it does not make any Sense that is a Recipe for Hatred and the Zionist mostly from Central Europe have created only Hate backed by the British and the American Leaders Large Immigration into Palestine by Large Number of Fanatic Jewish Ultra-Conservative Individuals Claiming that God gave the Jews Palestine as a Promess Land is Madness That itself create Great Hatred .

For those who haven’t already done so, I think it would be enlightening for you to have a look at Israel and her neighbors through the eyes of Google Earth.
The panorama illustrates the practical results of years of middle-east politics.

Excellent article Taya.
But the worst of the violence is the malignant and obscene territory grabbing Israeli settlements.
They should at the very least be bulldozed all the way back back to the pre '67 borders.
Let the Israeli's then build their own enclosing fence on those lines.

In spite of the United Nations, there have been many wars/conflicts in the last fifty plus years. How many conflicts have allowed one state to take control of another? Why should the Israelies be appeased with more territory? Why should occupation of land by force be justification for expanding?

My father visited Palestine. Where is Palestine now?

DonF

The Author said:
And as Hamas entered talks with Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt.... US President George W. Bush attempted to meet these discussions by transforming the Road Map peace process into a list of demands:

COMMENT:
‘Iran’-xenophobic Islamo fascist nuclear wanna be.
‘Russia’ Always in need of buyers for their missile technology and for new economic markets generally. Unlikely to be influenced by the ‘Jewish Lobby’ as is the USA.
‘Egypt’ long standing War humiliation at the hands of the Israelis.
‘SaudiArabia’ Moneyyyyyyyyy plus birthplace of Mohammed.

Strewth said:
non-Jews, were ethnically cleansed by Zionist forces under cover of war in 1948-49 beyond the borders of the Jewish state.

COMMENT To give balance, thousands of Jews were also ‘ethnically cleansed’ from surrounding Arab lands.

Remote Centreman said:
Since both sides begin with a claim of total possession of Palestine as their historical right; and since neither claim can be accepted within the realms of realism or without grave injustice: it is plain that compromise, i.e. partition, is the only correct solution

COMMENT: The first sentence is the key, read Genesis 12 to the end of 2nd Kings to fill in the gaps :)

Dovif said:
You are free to choose anyone you want, but if you choose someone we don't like, we won't give you aid and you can go bankrupt.

COMMENT: Welcome to the world as it really is :) The outcome of WW2 is still what dictates policy.

Coyote said:
The history of this region, and the history of this conflict spans millenium and generations.

Many nations have had a hand in the formation of the situation we see today. Russia, France, Britain, Turkey (Ottomans), the Vatican.

COMMENT: Astute observations ! This sheds light on Dovif’s complaint.

SUMMARY. “All have (and continue to) sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.”
2Cor5
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:(NIV)

As far as Australia is concerned there are two old adages that sum it all up. They are:

1. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

2. The friend of my enemy is my enemy.

The result of this is that at the moment most Australians would regard Israel as our ally and Palestine as our enemy.

Boaz_David: "To give balance thousands of Jews were 'ethnically cleansed'from surrounding Arab lands." Hello? Jews ethnically cleansed by Arabs? Let's get the facts straight here: In the 1950's, after the mass expulsion of Palestinian (Muslim & Christian) Arabs from their homes and lands in western Palestine in 1948, Israel, while shooting any Palestinians who tried to return to their homes and lands, launched active campaigns to uproot Jewish Arabs in places such as Iraq, Yemen and Morocco to colonise some of the vast landholdings and property it had stolen from the Palestinian refugees via the Absentees Property Law (1950). Also, by successfully achieving such population transfers, they hoped to neutralise the claims of the Palestinian refugees. And if, as in the case of the Iraqi Jews, the latter were somewhat reluctant to leave their homeland, then the Zionist underground in Iraq were not averse to bombing Baghdad synagogues to help them make up their minds. The self-serving, Israeli-engineered population transfer of Arab Jews to Israel cannot be described as ethnic cleansing. Nor can it be used to deny the inalienable right of the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and lands.

OOOOO dear oo me:
The United States Congress heard a damning report this week about U.S. aid being over-alotted due to deliberately inflated Palestinian population figures.

The findings of an exhaustive study on Palestinian Authority (PA) population statistics claims that the Palestinian Authority has deliberately misled U.S. and international humanitarian efforts by inflating their population figures to attract billions of dollars in relief funds.

Bennet Zimmerman, Project Leader of a recent study entitled "Arab Population in the West Bank and Gaza: The Million Person Gap," presented the findings to the Congress this week. Zimmerman addressed the House International Relations Subcommittee on the Middle East which has been investigating U.S. funding of the Palestinian Authority.

"American tax dollars and other international humanitarian aid have been based on inflated population numbers which have been accepted without question by governments and aid agencies," he said in an interview with the World Net Daily. "Our researchers pointed out that money has been spent to help Palestinians who were double-counted, never born or not present in the West Bank and Gaza."

According to Zimmerman, the current official population for the West Bank and Gaza, which is listed as 3,279,141, is a highly inflated figure that does not reflect the demographic reality, which he estimates at 1.4 million in the West Bank and 1 million in Gaza, totaling 2.4 million. "The U.S. and Europeans have for years accepted entirely exaggerated data. Now Congress has some very tough questions to ask, including how its own State Department and the CIA could have been duped and what do to regarding future aid," stated Zimmerman

Somewhat closer to the Point

The US has been after Iran as a Hegemonic prize for a long time.
The nearest success was with the planting of the Puppet Shah, fake descendant of the Persian Peacock Throne, placed there at America’s will.

It is truly amazing how many of our somewhat moronic public. as well as many of our contributors, don’t appear to have a clue about Middle East history since WW2, which is dominated by America’s eagerness to call the tune over the whole Middle East, with a couple of co-Anglophiles now tagging along like little obedient puppies.

First there was the pretext that Iran had Communist leanings, but with no threats to anyone bar the US and our dearest Yours Trulies, Brittannia and Aussieland, the gallant threesome determined to capture the most valuable prize in the Middle East, Iran, a nation of more than 80 million people, not Arabic, but proudly Persian, as a real genuine Persian Peacock Dynasty would have insisted.

It is well to remember the Ayotollah Khomeni, and even some earnest Anglos clapping their hands when the whole American embassy was taken prisoner towards the end of Jimmy Carter’s Presidency.

Not to give up, the US backed by Henry Kissinger, helped organise the Iraqi attack on Iran in 1981, which went on for more than eight years, with Americans like Donald Rumsfeld reckless enough to supply Saddam of Iraq with chemical weapons.

Part Two

But still the Americans could not gain the prize, the war itself fizzling out with enormous casualties, with the CIA in a lot of trouble over the Iran-Contra scandal with Kissinger having decided to supply arms to both sides.

Apart from its dynamic Persian days, Iran had still not attacked any other nation. Understandably there has been concern over Iran backing the Arab militancy against Israel which indeed was an outcome warned about by the British, when what was left of the Jews after the Nazi genocide asked to be given back what they termed their Promised Land. Sure this has been the cause of much of the Middle East tension since WW2, some researchers saying that the amount of money and effort gone into protecting the Israelis by the US with the allowance of atomic war capacity included, is the main reason Iran wants to go nuclear. It was also mentioned that it would have been better for America to let the Jews settle in a part of the US as a new Promised Land, which is happening in any case right now with so many Zionists with US Presidential Addresses.

With murderous goons like Rumsfeld and Cheney virtually running the world, must make people with a sense of literary history such as the recent Nobel Prize winner, Harold Pinter, wonder how we could have ever reached the situation we are now in. For instance, with a President we should admire, looking a far better character for a comic opera rather than in the ultra-high position he now is in. Certainly Pinter does not pull any punches, and it is a real pity that there are not more noted personages game to speak up about the mess our world is now in, with the media just lately more content to relate about more breaking of records concerning world billionares, indicating the way the world is being run with its trickle down misguided globalisation

I think one has to call a spade a spade - Hamas is a terrorist organization. It would be mendacious to pretend otherwise. Hamas openly supports the use of terrorism to further its political objectives, and one of those includes the destruction of Israel. Therefore, why should Hamas be accepted as a legitimate political partner simply because it was elected? The National Socialist Party in Germany also gained power through democratic means. Does that mean it should have been internationally accepted also?

The Palestinians need to be aware that if they wish to elect terrorists to govern them, then the international community has the right to respond accordingly. I would have thought by now that the Palestinians would have realized that beggars can't be choosers in terms of their relations with Israel. If they want statehood, they have to deal with Israel on its terms.

Strewth
I actually took you seriously until you began a clear 'propoganda' rant in that last post.

"It was the Israeli underground which drove Jews from Arab lands"

I suppose you also believe 911 was a Mossad plot and that no Plane crashed into the Pentagon and that Osama bin Ladin is actually just 'misunderstood' and in fact a holy patriot of all righteousness ?

They tend to go together u know.

Well, I tried to look up some information on your claim and cannot find any. It seems it exists in the recesses of your own mind, or in sources not controlled by the'international zionist conspiracy' ?
Please be forthcoming with some actual sources which I can examine and scrutinize.

Here is a quote from a site "Middle East Facts"
http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Articles/history-of-jews-in-arab-countries.php

"Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism, and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. However, following Syrian independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims."

Another which is quite verifiable because on the public record.

Jews In 1956: The Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property.

Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled.

I suppose some Mossad agent had plastic surgery to 'look' like the Egyptian Minister for religious affairs ? :)

Boaz, I couldn't ever take you seriously: As a Zionist you naturally rely on such Zionist propaganda sites as middleeastfacts and then accuse those who don't of propaganda. It probably won't do me much good, but let me appeal to the human being behind the blinkered Zionist ideologue: shut down your computer long enough to do a bit of reading, you know, in books? On the predicament of the Iraqi Jews, look up Abbas Shiblak's 'Iraqi Jews'; on the Zionist campaign to uproot Arab Jews more generally, try David Hirst's 'The Gun & the Olive Branch' (and while on the subject of Mossad plots check out Hirst's account of the 'Lavon affair'). The truth of the matter is that the single worst catastrophe ever to befall both Arab Jews and indigenous Palestinians was the establishment of a sectarian Jewish state in Palestine.

An Interview with Ali Sina on Muslims in Europe

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60219.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Ali Sina:
"Words can mean different things to different people. It is important to understand what people mean when they use a certain word. Let's make an example. Take the word gay. Fifty years ago, gay meant exclusively cheerfulness, lighthearted excitement, merry or bright colors. Today this word has a different meaning. You won't call a cheerful person gay because it could be understood as something else.

Just as the same word can mean different things in different times, it can also mean different things in different cultures. Islam does not mean peace. It means submission. The word 'peace' for Muslims has a different meaning. Peace, according to Muslims, will be achieved when everyone submits to Islam. Muslims can't offer peace. They can offer truce. In their minds, peace will be achieved only when you are subdued and they are the masters. Any other arrangement is not Islamic.

Recently the newly elected leaders of Hamas, who have been surprisingly honest, have spelled the concept of Islamic peace eloquently. They said that they won't give up on their quest to destroy Israel but meanwhile, as long as they are weak and realizing that such dream is not yet possible, they are willing to work out a truce, to be broken when they feel strong enough to wipe out Israel from the map and establish the 'peace' as it is acceptable by Islam.

Muhammad divided the world in two sectors. One he called Dar us Salam (House of Peace) and the other, Dar al Harb (House of War). All countries, where Islam is not the ruling authority, are Dar al Harb. It is the duty of the Muslims to wage Jihad in Dar al Harb, overthrow the governments and force people into submission. This is the only kind of peace that Islam recognizes."

Well Bush bred,
After that expose of Post hock drivel, and as a senior in our society, you are an abject failure. I note you gloating about Graduating on an earlier thread. That is obvious; you rant and rave on like a 22 year old Lobotomized socialist who received his programming in our Educational Gulags: Or a more apt description- “Anti Epistemology and Moral- Ethical-self righteous Conditioning Gulags:” Personally: You failed, and you of all people should have known better.

Do your self a favor, put a brick into your computer, and then go buy a set of: “Cambridge Ancient Histories of the Middle East.” That would be the best Investment you ever made.

You Post Modern knowledge have done you no favors. All your espoused crap has been dealt with before on many occasions, but here is a brief: http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm in the form of a letter addressed to some other Post hock felon and Frauds on the Islamic subject. Read and listen to Martin.

I had to pick my jaw of the ground when I read your contribution Bushbred. Fairdinkum. It could have been a Gough Whitlam speech written by Mark Latham. - And you left out “Bum Licker”.

Strewth.
You sound like an Illuminati: Using reverse psychology tactics, and to state the opposite of what is known fact.

Save your energy DB, some are too far gone to bring back to reality, regardless of their Religious orientation. But I would have mentioned that all other Religions have from an Anthropological perspective and tribal demographics, evolved from the one basic principle belief- bar one. Guess which one that is?
You can find that out from the Encyclopedias of the Orient. Yes they were written before Academic Phonies and Looters were trendy.

All- An illuninati, eh? Shedding a little too much light on the subject for you, am I? Re your earlier irrelevant post, allow me to shed a little more: your friend, Bennett Zimmerman, a supporter of illegal Israeli colonizers on occupied Palestinian and Syrian land, spooked by Barak's negotiations with the Syrians over the Golan, and alarmed that Sharon was (at least in part) justifying his unilateral withdrawal from Gaza by citing the Palestinian 'demographic threat' to Israel's self-proclaimed democracy, decided that if he could show that the Palestinian population was considerably less than claimed, then that would help neutralise the perceived need for further withdrawals of Israeli colonizers. The fact that his 'research' was unveiled at the neocon 'thinktank', the American Enterprise Institute, should come as no surprise. Have you no shame peddling this kind of tripe?

Dear Strewth
actually, I was not aware of my source being a zionist propoganda arm, but that is really not the issue.
Common sense and history both tell us that the Jewish RE-ESTABLISHMENT of their God Given homeland, was like a red rag to an Arab bull, and just for the record, 'who' attacked 'who' in 1948 ?
The messy and volatile climate of the time could probably be argued either way, but the main attack came from the Arabs ... ALL of them.

Such things neither justify or condemn the existence of Israel.
If you wish to seek a political solution, you need to goto Rome and discuss with the Italian government how they plan to fix the problem they created in the yr 70 when the stole the land of Israel from its REAL indigenous population, whom they exiled i.e. the Jews.

The issue of 'who' is the real 'indigenous' population of Israel is moot. You can argue with the covenant of God, or the power of a gun, it boils down to the fact that Israel is there, and they are so in the same way that the Arabs got 'there'... military power, be it the Muslim armies of Mohammed or the Ottoman Turks.

So, it leads me to the conclusion that you are either after a lop sided justice of your own flavor, where you pick and choose the historical tent pegs which suit your case, or you are in fact an Arab, where the only result you want is the least likely to suceed.

While I am sympathetic to the plight of Arabs who have lost the place they were living, I am also a victim through my ancestors of similar ethnic cleansing, and life aint that bad here in Aussie land :)
So.. the Arabs can just plain 'get over it' and begin new lives just as every other exiled people have had to do, or..they can try the military option and become a 'deceased people'...the choice is theirs.

I've read today that Austarlia is working on a nuclear reactor that can recycle nuclear waste,unbeknownst to me at the time,I suggested something months ago to the solution to nuclear waste.

If this is achieved soon,we won't have to worry about the Middle East and their ignorant superstitions.

Australia has 40% of the known uranium reserves and the rest of the world can get on with the realities of building a quality of life and better philosophy that Muslim Philosophy shuns at their peril.

Well in the future,the next time those stupid Imans shout "Bloody Murder" over innocous cartoons,they won't even make it to letters to the editor let alone raise a few eyebrows in fear or disgust.

Now at what price could we sell uranium to the Middle East and the latest recycling technology?

It's hard to believe that the US doesn't have some sort of hidden motive for wanting to bring democracy to the violent middle-east.

It is obvious that democracy in this savage region would translate into votes for xenophobic, misoginystic, religo-fascists, indeed, we have seen this already with Hamas.

Those posts who think the US is hypocritical for calling for democracy yet threatening aid withdrawal don't see the big picture.

One canno't tolerate democracy if that means an end to another state. If the Palestinians, who have been viewed as victims for so long, long to genocide their neighbour - as they do, then they must be crushed.

I believe that the US knows this, as it doesn't take a genius to know that by and large, the Muslim world is an intolerant, savage set of cultures, immorral to the core.

A bit harsh? I don't think so. Although leftists use the excuse that terrorism is only supported by a few, this doesn't hold up when one considers everyday things, like how the Simpsons - which now airs in the Arab world - had to remove Krusty the clown, Apu the Hindu, the Rev. Lovejoy, because the audience are intolerant bigots.

Scores of surveys by both fanatical leftists & reputable organisations show the same thing, the vast majority of Muslims want to take Islam to the world. In Britain, the largest Muslim group on campuses (where the 'educated Muslim class' are represented) is Hizbut-Tahrir (or as I call them Here's Butt, Put Dick Here!), who are nothing short of Nazi's who wish to shape our planet.

The nonsense argument we here of just ignore them as they could never succeed is outrageous. We are told that, in Australia, white supremacists number around 500, and they have no impact on our lives at all, yet we still hear about them

I realise that Muslims are impotent as a political force, but threats still need to be managed.

Back to my original point, I believe the US has encouraged democracy to show the leftists that the Muslim world aren't ready for democracy. This is evident in Palestine as well as Egypt (where the Brotherhood won many seats) and in Iraq.

It is only western leftists that hold us back from installing Attaturk type figures accross the region. This will be benefitial in the sense that they need an iron fist, because they view tolerance as weakness (one only has to look to Muslim diasporas in the west to see this attitude), yet a dictator who forces human rights on them, who forces them to accept that we are not inferior to Muslims, that we must live as equals, under western developed principles of human rights.

We are all humans, not Muslims, Christians, Jews, Australians, Turks, etc. Those superficial identities must be washed away if were ever to be united.

People must cast off their racism towards Europeans, particularly Anglo's (which I believe suffers racism the most throughout the world) because their cultures came up with the better moral value systems.

Everyone has already voted with their feet, the world's refugees flee to the west, it's about time that people's heads get the message too.

Boaz: "Not aware"? Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. "Common sense and history"? Whose cs & h? "God Given homeland"? How tribal! 1948? "In the months preceeding the Arab invasion we continued to make sallies into the Arab area...Our hope lay in gaining control of territory. At the end of January 1948, at a meeting of the Irgun Command...we outlined 4 strategic objectives: Jerusalem, Jaffa, the Lydda-Ramleh plain, the Triangle..." (Begin, 'The Revolt') January, not May! "Real indigenous population"? The present day Palestinian Arabs are the ancestors of the original Canaanite pop. of Palestine. "Lopsided justice"? No, simply justice which conforms to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, international law and relevant UN resolutions. "The place where they were living"? Their homeland. "A victim through my ancestors"? Inherited victimhood - you're joking! So, the "Arabs" as you call them [take a deep breath and say Pal-est-in-ians] have to "get over it" after an actual 68 years exile, but you're unable to get over an imaginary exile of thousands of years? Boaz, get out of the 1st Century and get a life.

Sorry. What a load of one-sided rubbish. For instance, Hamas is still taking a hard line stance, http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage/0,5481,18382137,00.html

Calling withholding of aid until they moderate blackmail (as if they have a right to aid)
http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2006/03/08/1141701574820.html

With a new hamas childrens website calling on them to fight zionists and commit suicide for God.
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3225214,00.html

Suffice to say, the moral equivalance of the author belongs in a hollywood film. Israel has been invaded multiple times and is in a very real struggle for survival. Apparently though, when they try and kill terrorists they are the same as them. Nonsense really.

Where is Jordon Strewth? That is your Palestine. You have just unmasked your identity.
Your version of the Seven Day war sounded like a speech by the then Egyptian President: For if he spoke the truth, Syria and Jordon would not have entered the war, only they were duped, and the Fledging Jews, were not so Fledging, were they?
Thus the events unfolded. They did not crush Israel, Israel crushed them. Can you recall the Odds Strewth?
Like I said before, Illuminati:

All-: "Jordon"? What is "Jordon"? "Seven Day war"? Never heard of it. "Fledging Jews"? Is this a new tribe I haven't heard of before? Please illuminate us.

All, thanks for the uncompliments. But what was written in my Post, was mostly taken from "Dissent" a philosophical magazine recommended by the Murdoch School of Humanities, and contributed to mainly by Uni' Professors and Phds.

What was said about Iran, to our minds is commonsense, as it should be to Israelis. In fact, the only country really backing Israel is America, and talking about democracy in the Middle East, if it came to a vote overall, both Israel and the US might be asked to move out next day after the election.

It is not that we dislike Israel, having had great sympathy for the way the Jews were treated by the Nazis, but the reality is there that the Middle East is mainly Arabic or Persian, and the situation cannot be changed but only be held by police action, either by the UN or by the US.

The United Nations, naturally, is a lost cause, mostly through the wishes of a dominant United States. So it is left to America to do the job, already partly achieved by the US letting little Israel have atomic capability ridiculously out of context for its size.

You must admit that it is the main reason that Iran wants to go militarily nuclear.

Finally, to get to the real crux of the matter, ALL', it is well to enquire, do you want a defiant Iran taken out, as both Cheney and Rumsfeld have threatened, or would it be better to have Israel de-nuclearised, and protected by a far stronger United Nations, even protected thereon by strong forces from Russia, China and India, as well as Nato-style forces? Better that than letting the US of A become more unpopular in this world than ever.

Would like a straightforward answer from you, ALL, rather than another character assassination.

Any Islamist state is as much democratic as contemporary Australia sovereign is.

Imposing own standards on others is as much practical as asserting public that the Big Ben is a natural feature of a proudly Australian landscape.

Bush bred:

Iranian conundrum.
The Alternative is worse, so strategic targeting of nuclear plants is required. Obviously: Political, the people will eventually.
http://www.niacouncil.org/pressreleases/press299.asp : He is the Alternative at the moment.
http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2005/october-2005/mko_trial_191005.shtml
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/singleton.php?articleid=2364

Iran , what you and others think, it is not Islamic, The Attila Looters have the Guns, as you will find out , it is under Islamic Occupation and has been for 1400 years, much like every other Middle Eastern country, You will find that out as you progress.

You must have understood what you wrote previously, PhD these days by some is not worth toilet paper. Just pure Anti-Semitic garbage. Zionist by the way is interesting, considering Saudi Arabia has 700 Billion dollar control interest in USA; you must ask your self why the Jews are being used as the red herring. So who controls your version of? “The protocols of Zion”, helps explain the leftoid alignment might you say? Think about it.

According to Alan Grey, "Israel...is in a very real struggle for survival". Yet Boaz boasts: The Arabs "can try the military option and become a 'deceased people'". It'd really help the rest of us if the Zionist propagandists who infest this site could get the party-line straight.

Bushbred;
This book was recommended to me by an Iranian Professor early last year: It is an eye opener.
Here is an Interview in text with the author on radio National. ABC : http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/spirit/stories/s1101232.htm
The book is : In Search of Zarathustra: By : Paul Kriwaczek:
A great read, but the only problem is, you end up buying more books.
I think you will enjoy it, and at best- will give you an outline of Iranian thinking , and the people through out the region. I’m sure you will find it of great value and very informative.

Israel is a becon of light surronded by Islamic darkness - a darkness which casts its shadow on Europe and Australia.

People, the sun is going down on our civilisation, the darkness of Islam is falling and the Leftists are tearing down our civilisation from the inside - (liberal minded people who protect minorites to the detriment of the local people - ie, saying its racist to acknowledge an Islamic culture of rape against local Australian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, and French, gilrs, but do not say a word to protect their own people who are being raped - heads in the sand and self-hating).

I urge you to read the posted article - yes the itis from a political blog, but the article itself links to a journalistic interveiw (pegassus suggests whatever is posted on a blog is fantassy).

The article outlines the IslamoFacist sentiment of Muslims in theWest where they chose to live because of the liberal society, now they want to bring it down. I ask you to consider what a Palestinian state would look like, and appreciate the need for a strong Israeli hand against Isalmic terror and suicide attacks on women and children in the name of the 'so-called' Religion of Peace, Islam, unless you prefer a policy of appeasemnet of Islamic terror and Islamic Facists.

Norway’s most controversial refugee, Mullah Krekar, told an Oslo newspaper on Monday that there’s a war going on between “the West” and Islam. He said he’s sure that Islam will win, and he also had praise for suspected terrorist leader Osama bin Laden.

“We’re the ones who will change you,” Krekar told Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet in his first interview since an uproar broke out over cartoons deemed offensive to Muslims.

“Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes,” Krekar said. “Every western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries are producing 3.5 children.

“By 2050, 30 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim.”

He claimed that ”our way of thinking... will prove more powerful than yours.“ He loosely defined “western thinking” as formed by the values held by leaders of western or non-islamic nations. Its “materialism, egoism and wildness” has altered Christianity, he claimed.

Krekar, who’s been supported by the Norwegian government since arriving as a refugee from northern Iraq in the early 1990s, now faces deportation after violating the terms of his refugee status and being deemed a threat to national security.

“Those who say Osama bin Laden is a terrorist are themselves killing our women and children,” Krekar said.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=19625_Were_the_Ones_Who_Will_Change_You&only

Part One

Thanks for further info, All, but I must say different than you, I have trust in what I have learnt over 25 years of contact with philosophers and social scientists. Included in that is a political science degree majoring in history and international relations with Honours.

Talking about wars these days, ALL, it must be said that there are wars that a different. This one in particular, unlike great wars like WW1 and WW2, couild last for fifty years, even more, especially if Iran is overrun. The hatred from ME Islamics could be so intense, that the fixing of the present trouble in Iraq could be a cakewalk. In fact, the anger could be so intense it could almost need a genocide to overcome it.

We then have the problem of which side China might take, especially as she gets most of her oil from Iran, also Japan, as well as India.

The world could be in real trouble, ALL, even more so with the economic hate that is building up against the US over her breaking of her own WTO trade laws with her massive subsidies, enabling her to steal other markest by her dumping of cheap subsidised grains

Part Two

Finally, ALL, I present a portion of a copy of a thesis by Immanuel Kant, the 18th century German philosopher, and called the Plan for Perpetual Peace.

What set Kant off was when Napo;eon after the French Civil war got carried away with his early European victories and declared himself Emperor thus denouncing his role of Enlightenment Liberator.

Sounds ridiculous these days, but the opening paragraph is interesting:

"From this day hence, not one person alone, nor ome nation can be trusted to run our future world. Humans throughout history have proven not to be trusted, because being of earth they have senses and emotions which cannot always be controlled. Even a human ruler under God has too often proven untrustworthy under certain circumstances.

Kant went on to write about a Federation of Nations from which was later born the League of Nations then the present United Nations. Both pracically ruined, sadly, by Kant's detailed human weaknesses.

With the United Nations, first it was the veto demanded by the Soviet Union, then the same by the United States. Then more lately by the Republican George Bush/2 regime that Perpetual Peace could only be solved by one powerful nation alone policing the world while fully armed, while other nations must stay only lightly armed, which incidently, has not come about, especially with China

A practical question: does one know how much de-facto siphoned into HAMAS pockets from the Australian Government-sponsored via at least AusAid and World Vision humanitarian projects?

Anyone still with us on this post should bear in mind that the Islamophobic rantings of Thor, with his Jihadis under the bed hysteria, are carefully calculated to divert attention from Israel's dirty war in the Palestinian territories. Such racist and cynical constructions as "Islamic cultures of rape", "self-hating Leftists" and "Muslims numbers expanding like mosquitoes" are akin to the diversionary camouflage ink squirted by the octopus to cover its tracks. Unsuspecting readers are diverted to Islamophobic Zionist hate-sites such as littlegreenfootballs and the real agenda, emerging from the ooze, is: "I ask you to consider what a Palestinian state would look like, and appreciate the need for a strong Israeli hand". It is a sure sign of the desperation of the propagandists of Zion and the banruptcy of their 'cause' that, in the absence of any real justification for why the world should tolerate "a strong Israeli hand" any longer, they should stoop to the politics of fear.

Commentary on, “The Islamophobic Rantings of Thor, The Zionists and The Idiot Leftist”.

In response to an Islamic Mullah’s comment published in a Norwegian newspaper, ‘Dagbladet’ [ http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/03/13/460523.html ] and other European newspapers, such as ‘Aftenposten’ [ http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1247400.ece ], which I linked to in an above post, the comment is referred to by a Leftist on the forum as a “racist … construction” [Strewth].

If the comment is a “racist … construction” as she [Strewth] suggests, then it is “racist” in and of itself. Yet, an Islamic Mullah uttered the particular comment to which she [Strewth] refers, “ … [in Europe] the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes” and he also stated “We’re the ones who will change you,” and, “our way of thinking [Islam]... will prove more powerful than yours [Western]“ [ http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1247400.ece ].

The Leftist [Strewth] refers to the Islamic Mullah’s comments as a “racist … construction” - that the Islamic Mullah is racist to the religion he represents, Islam… An ‘Islamophobic’ Islamic Mullah… Is The Idiot Leftist joking?!

And;

In response to three Muslim organiation’s comments published in a Danish newspaper, ‘The Copenhagen Post’ [ http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html ], which recognised a need “to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls” . She [Strewth] refers to the comments as “racist … constructions as [an] ‘Islamic culture of rape’ [against local girls and as recognised by three Muslim organizations]…” [Strewth].

She [Strewth] clearly suggests the Muslim organizations listed below have uttered “racist … constructions” against the religion they represent, Islam;

Babar Baig from Minhaj ul Quran’
Union of Muslim Students (FASM)’; and
The Organisation of Pakistani Students and Academics (OPSA
[ http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html ]

Is The Idiot Lefitst joking?!

To ‘The Idiot Leftist’ [Strewth].

Hamas targets Israeli women and children – bloody parts of human flesh of young mothers and their infants hanging from the wreckage of bombed busses, parts scattered about the bloody street – A rational person would not call this ‘an absence of justification’ – in what else ever would a strong Israeli response be more expedient?

This is why I attack the idealist, liberalist, leftists on this forum – you have absolutely no comprehension of the horror of a terrorist attack. You protect terrorists’ plight, but do not say one word to proteSt the terrorist attacks or protect those murdered women and children – you are inconsistent and immoral – I will not say you are ‘anit-Semitic’… I don’t need to, your inconsistency shows that you are the racist ones.

And your heads are so far in the sand you cannot see that in the purported “racist constructions” against Islam, the comments have come from Islam itself.

Muslim organizations recognise that Muslims are over-represented in rape statistics in Denmark, responsible for 68% of all rapes (but make up less than 5% of the population), and the clear underlying culture of rape behind such statistics, as documented in official police statistics, [http://www.cphpost.dk/get/62605.html], but you leftists say it is racist to recognise it, even though Muslim organisations recognise it themselves…

I have unequivocally shown you to be inconsistent anti-Semitic racists, who paint people with the ‘racist’ or ‘Islamophobia’ brush who merely post what Muslims themselves have stated about themselves.

This is why I attack you on this forum, the Muslim orgaisations have recognised the problem and have commenced a campaign to fight the problem – sincere congratulations to Babar Baig from Minhaj ul Quran’, The Organisation of Pakistani Students and Academics (OPSA), and Union of Muslim Students (FASM)’ for such COURAGE - but you leftists paint everyone with the 'racist' brush and put your heads in the sand and do not recognise the problem, and therefore, you are not letting the problem be worked out, to the detriment of Australian women – you COWARDS.

Basing an alleged "IslamoFascist sentiment of Muslims in the West" on the rantings of one Islamist nutter in Denmark and an "Islamic culture of rape against Australian, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch and French gilrs" [his spelling, not mine] on the involvement in rape of a minority of the disaffected sons of Muslim immigrants in Denmark, suggests that Thor has placed his failure to think straight at the service of a disturbing Islamophobia. Likewise, his selective concern ("Israeli women and children") for the innocent victims of Israel's colonization of Palestine suggests a racist assumption that only Israeli deaths matter. He cynically praises the efforts of Muslim organizations in Denmark to do something about the issue of rape in that country but cannot explain why, if Islam is characterised by a "clear underlying culture of rape", they would even bother. Finally, until Thor has the "COURAGE" to speak out against Israel's mailed fist (or "strong Israeli hand" to use his own words), his nonsense about "idiot leftist COWARDS" will only serve to highlight his hypocrisy.

Golly Strewth..I thought the counselling had worked... nope.. ur still wasting your life and keystrokes over this

Israel 'BAD'
Palestinians 'GOOD'

trip you are on...

I advised you to put away the drugs but clearly you have not done so.

Ok..ribbing aside. Lets get a few things clear.

"All ..have (and continue to) sinned" and that includes me, and it includes you.

I find your approach to the Israel/PLO problem surprising. You appear to have the view that Israel can be persuaded to suddenly committ 'modern massada' and give all the land (Israels land) to the Palestinians after which the Jews will commit mass suicide.

Are you in fact an Indigenous Australian who converted to Islam ?

Either that or...

Its possible that you write for the Green Left weekly, because they seem to have a rather 'unusual' way of assessing reality.

When you judge Israel, you also judge yourself. Because the land you are sitting on as you type.. is of the same status as the land in Israel.. 'taken'... yet.. you seem to want to continue up the ladder.. from bishop to Cardinal and fron Cardinal to Pope.. in the church of leftist hypocrisy. (unless you are as I suggested above)

Is it likely that Modern Australia will suddenly 'give back' vast tracts of suburban land, on which MILLIONS of people live ?

Its as likely that Israel will also do so.

Bushbred:
I understand your perspective, Though Western Nations are disintegrating within quite rapidly, USA, UK, Europe, Australia etc, the warning bells have been sounding for sometime. The riches of the world are worthless without proper knowledge and philosophy. China on the other has adopted exactly what the British Liberals have trashed, and that was the standard of epistemology required and the philosophy that drives them. Old Communist states are breaking free and using models that were ours, and our Elites have adopted their Communist manifestoes by default, simplistic way of describing it, but the future for what Kant Espouses is bleak indeed.
“David Stove”, on the other hand, and a local boy, makes a lot of scene; http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/davidstove.html

Baoz says that I "appear to have the view that Israel can be persuaded to suddenly commit 'modern massada' and give all the land (Israels land) to the Palestinians after which the Jews will commit mass suicide." No, Baoz, worse, much worse: I think Israel should become a binational, secular, democratic state for all of its citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish, just like the kind of land you're living in right now. Pretty apocalyptic, eh? As for Australia being "of the same status as the land in Israel...taken", you're so right. Both are colonial-settler states created at the expense of their indigenous inhabitants, but with key differences: our indigenous inhabitants are living as full citizens, equal before the law, whereas Palestine's indigenes are either stateless refugees, second class Israeli citizens or under Israeli occupation.

“I think Israel should become a binational, secular, democratic state for all of its citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish” [Strewth]

hahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

People, will someone PLEASE show the idealist liberalist leftists the ‘Charter of Hamas’!!

The Charter of Hamas

Preface: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

Article 7: ... the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Hamas, and the majority of Palestine and its people who voted for them, want ALL of the land as outlined in the Charter of Hamas articles’ above.

“I think Israel should become a binational, secular, democratic state for all of its citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish” [Strewth]

Palestine and its people do not what a "binational, secular, democratic state" as stated in the charter of Hamas, the 'policitcal party', co-called, that the MAJORITY of Palestine voted for -

I put it to the Left that you are racist for saying that they cannot have a middle age, opressive to women, no freedom of expression, Islamic state (I thought I'd throw a leftist smear back at one of them).

AND

Muslims are disproportionately represented in official rape statistics in Denmark – Muslims are responsible for 68% of all rapes, but make up just 4% of the population. Hence, using ‘inductive reasoning’ there must be an underlying culture of rape present – the comments of an Australian Sheik who stated that Australian girls dressed ‘strapless [and] backless’ are “targets for rape” provides the link between the undisputable statistical correlation between the particular 4% of the population who are Muslims, the religion they prescribe to and the rapes – The stark over-representation is NOT accounted for STATISTICALLY by ‘a handful of disaffected youth’ as the number of rapes are too high for a ‘handful’ to have committed that many rapes to bring the proportion for that 4% of the population up to 68% of all rapes.

If there is not a ‘culture of rape’ and Muslims do not listen to Sheiks who preach to encourage rape, then what else accounts for the undisputable statistical correlation? Sociologists have commented that in Arab Islamic culture the women is seen as responsible for rape, and a man does not feel he has done anything wrong – I suggest this culture is what underlies the statistics, it is a reasonable inference…

But what is the point discussing ‘reason’ with someone who refers to the Islamic Mullah’s comments as a “racist … construction” - that the Islamic Mullah is racist to the religion he represents, Islam… An ‘Islamophobic’ Islamic Mullah… I have never heard anything more ridiculous in my life…

to Achieve Peace in Palestine there is a way if there will be the will first Palestine one State no Israel the Jewish State that is a Creation of the Zionists and of Course America and The British one State for everyone Jews Arabs and Christians alike Israel the Jewish State Create Hatred i do not Understand why the Leaders of Israel do not Get-it-? they Assume that they have all the Right Answer and the other Side are all Idiots -Israel have one of the most Formidable Armies in the World Thanks to the American Tax-Payer Israel is only Viable because of America Injecting Huge amounts of Money and Supplying Israel with the Latest Technology -Etc Etc America should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan Fighting a War that no one will ever Win the American Army should be moved to Palestine and Rule the Place for as Long as it is Necessary Because that will be the only way to try to have Peace The Israelis Keeping the Arabs in Captivity with no Rights to have Borders Contron Air-Space Control a Huge wall-of Separation that is Apartheid in my Book under this Conditions i doubt that there ever will be Peace i love Peace and i would like to see peace in my lfe time

Thanks, Thor, we're back on topic with Hamas. I agree with Saree Makdisi (The Tempest Over the Hamas Charter) that its charter is "not only xenophobic, sectarian, and racist, but also ill-conceived, inaccurate, retrograde and intellectually vacuous." However, as he points out, the Zionist propagandist's obsession with this bit of paper is designed to divert attention from the actual, material racism of Israel: "Israel's Basic Laws...discriminate between Jews and non-Jews...And Israel's unique existence as a country that expressly claims to be not the state of its actual citizens, but rather of a globally dispersed people manifestly privileges the (non-Israeli) Jews of New York and Chicago [not to mention Australia] over Israel's actually existing non-Jewish citizens. Although they amount to some 20% of the state's population, the latter are literally written into 2nd class status by virtue of their non-Jewishness in what loudly proclaims itself to be the Jewish state." And check out the equally uncompromising, maximalist Likud party manifesto which sanctions the land-grabbing Israeli coloniser movement in the occupied Palestinian territories: "The right of the Jewish people to Eretz Yisrael is eternal and indisputable...The State of Israel has a right and a claim to sovereignty over Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip...Any plan involving the handover of parts of western Eretz Yisrael to foreign rule...denies our right to this country." Watch this space as Thor rushes to the defence of The Likud Manifesto.

As to your other obsession, Thor, rape in Denmark. Your sole interest is to smear Muslims and their faith by suggesting that Islam sanctions rape. Otherwise your attention would be on South Africa or Canada. Re the situation in Denmark for those with a genuine interest www.amid.dk/research/area5 puts the matter in perspective: "Surveys conducted by Statistics Denmark, published in 1998, show a proportionally higher crime-rate amongst populations of non-Danish/European origin, vis-a-vis the populations of Danish/European origin. Especially the so-called second generation...This survey...has been used by the right-wing parties and the media [and Propagandists of Zion like Thor]...However, this statistical material does not take into account various factors which could have important implications for the differences accounted for. Socio-economic factors such as levels of employment, housing, schooling and education, family and social network are important aspects when considering crime-rates and must be taken into account when dealing with crime-rates among immigrants." Thor, as always, you wear your agenda on your sleeve.

Strewth –

I commented on government statistics that stated Muslim immigrants – ‘second and third generation immigrants’, as referred to by the Danish government – are responsible for 68% of all rapes – but Muslim immigrants represent about 4% of the Danish population and therefore are extremely over-represented.

It is true; these government statistics do not take into account;

““socio-economic factors such as levels of employment, housing, schooling and education, family and social network..."

But, the statistics itself does not seek to explain the over-representation in rape by an ‘underlying Muslim culture of rape’ – this is my inference, not the inference of the statistics, the statistics merely prove an over-representation – I have made such inductive inference of an ‘underlying Islamic culture of rape’ based on two points;

1) some of Islam’s Sheiks, in Australia, Europe, and the Middle East, have preached that women who are not covered are “targets for rape” and that such women are responsible for the rape – it is true that not every Muslim cleric holds this view, but young middle eastern men, who are disaffected in Western societies may prescribe to it, and I believe they have indeed. It is also stated in the Hadiths about women’s responsibility to cover up lest they attract men’s attention – and some Mullah’s have taken this too far, maybe as part of the traditional Arab cultures, as I know of no Muslim Indonesian clerics who preach this.

2) There has been absolutely no gang rapes against Australian women who were referred to as “Aussie sluts” by Chinese immigrants, by Italians, by Greeks, or by any other immigrant group whatsoever – they only logical inference is that it must have something to do with the particular culture, i.e. either Arab culture, or Islam, and as ‘some’ Islamic sheiks are saying rape is ok to their young impressionable men, I don’t see how it is so unreasonable to make that inference, given Chinese and Greeks are not raping motivated by race, im sure there are some rapists but not such scale.

And even if you take the figures of unemployment in Muslim immigrant communities which may be high, no other group who happens to have high unemployed, i.e. the Chinese or Greeks, rape the local girls because they don’t have a job – lets say 90% of Muslim immigrants are unemployed, and it is the reason for rapes as you suggest, then the Chinese may have say 10% unemployed, then you would expect, according to your explanation of unemployment housing etc causes rapes, that the Chinese would be responsible for a ratio of rapes to unemployment equal to the ratio of Muslims.

Think about it, STREWTH, Muslims may have high rates of unemployment, but it is no excuse for rape, and as they only make up 4% of the population, there are still more unemployed in aggregate in other groups, although not as high a proportion – i.e. Muslims may make up no more than 20% of all unemployed as they only account for 4% of the population (an arbitrary high number for the purpose of discourse , which is a high proportion of unemployed, consistent whith your site suggests) but they still make up 68% of rapes, and then what about the other 80% of unemployed people who make up the other 96% of the population – in other words, Muslims in unemployment STILL are overrepresented in rape amongst all the unemployed – 4% population, 20% of all unemployed people, 68% of rapes as opposed to the other groups – 96% of population, 80% of all unemployed people, but only 32% of rapes. So it CANNOT be the cause, it must be something about Muslims which other groups don’t share - ie Islam.

Muslim unemployment is NO excuse for rape, and muslism still overrepresented amongst people you are unemployed and uneducated – based on your argument, which makes excuses for rapists, if it were VALID AT ALL one would expect unemployed and uneducated Danish people to be raping at higher rates than just 32% given they make up 96% the population and hence a higher aggregate of unemployed than muslims.

ALL, it is great that you have knowledge of Kant's attempt at a recipe for Perpetual Peace, which really should have been written as 'a way to find Perpetual Peace'. As you are no doubt aware of also, towards the end of the Kantian period, we also had Wilhelm Hegel, the other so-called great German philosopher. Indeed, some critics say, that Hegel was Kant's opposite, actually believing that wars and conflicts were needed to test and strengthen mankind's potential. Sort of an earlier 'survival of the fittest' which incidently Darwin only believed was natural for non-humans. He actually wrote that humans should not carry on killing each other, as he believed survival of the fittest for humanity, meant those who are able to develop a strong moral sense, especially a sense of justice, as we might guess that Immanuel Kant somewhat preceded Darwin with.

But certainly not Wilhelm Hegel, who as you probably know ran a school which the young Karl Marx attended. However, it is here where the interesting philosophical crux occurs. Though the Hegelian school was where Marx learnt the precepts of social revolution, he turned left wing towards the proletariat, while others who later followed Hegelian principles where able to use pretty well the same principles to turn ultra-right wing, as for example both Facism amd Marxism grew very much from the Hegelian principles that wars are necessary to test and better the mettle of men. Certainly something Kant did not believe in, with his apparently fervent belief or hope, that mankind must eventually find a way to prevent global wars.

George C, WA - Bushbred

Thanks BB, you just reminded me of an Essay I have on my system:
I can not post it, it is about 22 pages and I have not a link for it.
But it deals with Kant –Hegel and Schopenhauer. Personally I side with Schopenhauer, but concede that in perspective, and philosophers of that time, were more influenced by Spinoza and his New Pantheism Ideologies,( Similarity with Islamic) and from an anthological perspective, they seem not to possess knowledge of Demographic shifts throughout history, long before.
The obvious one to mind is the Aryan Invasions of India, etc and the influence of Cultures intermingled, created variations on Religious perspectives, including Buddhism-and Hindu etc as pantheistic.

This is the best link I can find without Posting Book length:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/schopenhauer.html

And a poignant observation of Philosophy then, there is NO reference to the Protocols of Zion. This is a result of the continuum to describe philosophically, and religiously: WHO AM I, type intellectualization. And the further they shifted Ideology towards pantheism and Universalism, the need to create Intellectualized propaganda was initiated, admittedly profiling the sources we need to apply Psychology and as far as possible with the information available, Neurological condition of the emanating sources.
It is interesting to learn the Protocols of Zion are indeed a fabrication in its original form, and emanated from: the period of the Mid to late 17th century. And France even to this day, has a lot to answer for. {Strewth} Illuminati: http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/83/

France has a great hand in harnessing the pathological Ideologist and seems to generate all of our worldly problems to date.
Karl Marx himself was kicked out of France, that’s how bad he was-From Post-Modernism, Political Correctness- Taxation- etc, Maquvellianism and the list goes on. France, we thank you(Not)

Thor, face it, you're a bigot with a tidy little formula: Danish stats + ranting Islamic nutballs + disaffected youth of ME appearance = rape. Listen up - for once. Rapists, whatever their ethnic background, Anglo, Arab, Thorian, are the dregs of humanity. They don't follow anyone, they don't listen to anyone - mainstream or nutball - Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or atheist. About the only thing bobbing about in their craniums might be lyrics about Ho's and motherf...ers from US (yes, good old US) rap culture. Chinese immigrants? Economically integrated. Italians/Greeks? Arrived here at a time of full employment, so 2nd gen now fully integrated. And of course unemployment is no excuse for rape - or any other sort of crime. But you will remember that the devil makes work for idle hands. Finally, consider this data: Sydney's Bankstown/Canterbury areas are the heart of the 'Lebanese' community, right? Well, far from being THE hotbed of sexual assault you, Thor, might expect, NSW Bureau of Crime Stats for 2000 (I think that's the year) show that of 150 LGAs it came 94th for rates of sexual assault. Ever wondered about the culture that gave rise to Abu Ghraib? Or the Likud Manifesto?

Strewth

You're wrong, although I understand where your coming from a bit. Nobody is saying that ALL Muslims are rapists, but when you look to the specific act of gang rapes with a racial motive, you can't help but notice it happens in every western diaspora they've settled in.

It's just factual. What irks people like Thor is that the Islamic community leaders fail to confront it, instead blaming our culture.

Any culture that views women as somewhat lesser beings (and Islam DOES view women this way, not only do prominent clerics at prestigious Islamic universities in the mid-east say this, Islamic texts, and history show this - as does todays Islamic world through honour killings, not being allowed to swim next to men, being covered with a veil) will have some people in that community acting on that attitude.

We have families in the underclass that grow up that way, leading to the occassional gang rape and murder, say the Cobby killers. Difference is though, they were mad, wheraes these Islamic rapists were normal, they showered, were groomed, respected themselves, and so on. It is a cultural thing, the evidence is overwhelming.

Are you really denying that?

Abu Graib? Come on, undies on heads mate, university pranks. It's ironic that due to pressure from human rights groups to close it, now those Iraqi prisoners face the REAL prospect of torture at the hands of the Iraqi's, who let's face it, excel at it.

All the US do is play loud music, get a dog to bark even though the inmate laughs and asks when his next smoke break is. Come on mate, Aussie prisoners in WW2 were tortured.

As for your LGA stuff, nonsense. Areas with say 12000 people like in the country, of course will have higher rape stats.

But you miss the point.

The problem of racially motivated gang rapes is something UNIQUE to Muslims.

Strewth

It is documented incourt proceedings that Muslim gang rapists confessed to befriending a youngAustralian girl on a train and asked her if shewas Muslim or not and stated that they wanted to make sure she was Australian and notMuslim - this is racist in itself, and they only inference I can come up with to explain this open targeting of a non-Muslim Australian girl is the preaching for Islamic sheiks. The rapists wanted to rape an Australian girl - andthe racism continued as the referred toher as an "Aussie slut".

Yes, peoples of all coloursand cultures rapewithin and across culture - but, in Australia no one else rapes based on racial lines - no one has raped an 'Aussie slut' and stated, andconfessed to such statement in court, that she "deserved it because she is Australian" - do you seethe difference?!

And back to the statistics, there are more unemployed, low housing, low educated Danish frommany cultures in aggregate then there are unemployed, low housing Muslims in Denmark - Hence, if unemployment, low housing, low education etc leads to rape, then one wouldexpect the statistics toshow a higher rate of rapes by Danish, as they have more unemployed - butalas, they only make up 32% of all rapes, Hence, the premise has been PROVED statistically FALSE!! 4% of the population andresponsible for 68% of rapes, but if half of them are unemployed, then its only about 25% of all unemployed, so according to you they should be responsible for 25% of all rapes, but they make up 68% - still overrepresented, so you need to look elsewhere for another explanation - the incitement of some radical sheiks? Ihold econometrics/fiancé jointhonors, and I studied a lot of statistics courses and deductive reasoning to interpret the statistics for the information to be used. If you stillcan't understand the statistics and false premise about unemployment as the trend of rape DOES NOT come out in the other unemployed groups, then I suggest you come and studya course or too on the subject.

Can someone on the forum please explain this to her?

also, I am a Christian, I am not Jewish and not a Zionist at all - I think both the Hams Charter and the Liquid Manifesto are extreme documents - but I am a realist, and when presented with such extreme documents I do not see how peace can ever be achieved, unlike an idealist liberalist like yourself who only sees through rose colored glasses - I agree with your vision, but I do not think it is realistic of what can happen, and as reckless as Israel may be in its occupation, Hams targets women and infants, and I do not think it is civilized to do so. and also, I remember the pictures of Palestine celebrating and handing out candy on Sep 11 which I thought was sick - in any event, Palestinians also burnt Danish and other European flags to protest freedom of speech, so given the middle age extreme thinking I don’t think Israel could ever negotiate a peace with them, even if they did step back from the liquid Manifesto.

you may or may not be a Muslim, but I think either way, people need to recognise and confront the problems of muslim gang rapes, and racism by Muslims to non Muslim Australians, not to point the finger, but to work it out so you can get on with it and live in peace together, and not live in a social terror - i mean, just yesterday at Bankstown some thugs starred me down and called me a 'f#@ken Aussie', and let me tell you, they were not chinese, italians, or african sudanese...

B & T, I take it that for you that the crucial thing about convicted rapist, Bilal Skaf, a thoroughly nasty piece of work by any standards, is that he's 'Muslim'? Let's explore that: Is he a believer or Muslim in name only? Is he literate in Arabic? Does he read the Koran? Did he ever attend mosque or prayer meeting? Did he call his victim an 'Aussie slut' because he was asserting an ethnic/religious identity or as an expression of his failure to fit in as an Aussie? Did it come from a feeling of superiority or one of inferiority stemming from a lifetime's exposure to racist insults (wogs/Lebs/terrorists). What was it about his background? Dysfunctional family? Under-parenting? Failed socialisation? Mental retardation? Moronic mates? Peer pressure? Drugs? A no-values, near pornographic, consumerist society? Media, advertising, fashion & music industries that routinely exploit sex? Who knows? Yet for bigots, mental midgets and those with a wider agenda it all reduces simplistically and conveniently to Islam: Muslims are rapists par excellence and it's all down to that terrifying, genetically transmitted cult known as Islam which promotes holy rape war and enjoins its followers to rape, rape, rape, all day long. I suppose that the rape of German women by Russian troops at the end of WW2 reduces to Russian Orthodoxy? The rape of Bosnian Muslims by Serbs to Serbian orthodoxy? [Gosh guys, shouldn't that have been the other way around?] The rape of Chinese by Japanese troops in the 30's to Shintoism? My God, the rapist/killers of Anita Cobby were probably baptised - and look where that led.

I have to humbly apologise to Thor and Benj - the man who raped me was a blue-eyed Anglo. Must try harder. Only be raped by men of 'middle eastern appearance', thus continue denigration of huge religion.

Once again an article about ISRAEL using similar tactics to the HAMAS government has been hijacked into yet another Islam bashing exercise.

On topic: when land is appropriated under the banner of "God said we can do this", trouble is bound to ensue.

BTW I am part Jewish so spare me any anti-semitism. The problem is when people claim they have a divine right to do something. This is clearly problematic whether the 'divine' are Jewish, Muslim, Christian or Kallathumpian.

Not all terrorists are Muslims, nor all rapists.

Thor & Benj - you are not interested in solving problems only escalating hatred against a majority of people who are indeed peaceful.

Your tactics are obvious and nothing short of reprehensible.

Benjamin's comments on Abu Ghraib are entirely predictable and simply beneath contempt. And Thor, Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same. The former is a faith, like Christianity or Islam. The latter is a political movement/ideology commited to the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state in Palestine, and just as many Christians subscribe to it as Jews. Please, for your own sake, before opening your mouth on the subject of Israel, Palestine & Zionism, do a bit of reading on the subject. Could I suggest that, despite its deficiencies, Peter Rodger's 'Herzl's Nightmare' might be a starting point, or, better still, David Hirst's 'The Gun and the Olive Branch'. Or even Joe Sacco's wonderful graphic narrative, 'Palestine'.

Dear Scout
Part Jewish ? how much ?
on the subject of your sad experience that you related here (thanx for exposing your personal history, it must not have been easy)
.. I sense that some of the momentum which you are criticising (and to a degree quite rightly so) is also stemming from particular personal experiences. Carniflex would be a stand out there.. and Ben with his early upbringing experiences also.. Thor, I don't know about as I've not seen much of a personal nature there.. Perhaps you should consider their own experience in this matter.

On you though, it suprises me that you seem so defensive of womens independance and not needing male protection, when your own experience suggests otherwise. But I won't grind that off topic axe any further here today.

You make a very good point actually, about "God said ....." as applied to human conflict. In regard to Israel/Palestine, I think they are both living in the Old Testament. The Jews have had no reason to step out of that mental outlook, since most of them did not accept Christ as Messiah. The Muslims also deny the true nature of Christ, and the mindset of Islam clearly reflects the days of Joshua etc rather than Christ.

So, in such circumstances, claiming a divine mandate for the land, on either side, will result in rather passionate outbursts of a spectacular nature.

I find myself in a very difficult position re Israel, because I believe absolutely that God is calling them back to the land, yet at the same time, I cannot from my Christian mindset feel comfortable with military conflict to achieve this, yet there seems no other way.

The first instance of possessing the promised land was also an act of judgement. There is no such judgemental authorization for this current re-possessing that I can see.

The Arab/Palestinian reaction is quite understandable in human terms, though in the broader context of history is nothing specially new.

So, Hamas being the epitomy of "Islamic" Fervor is unlikely to bring more of anything but war.

Strewth & Scout

Your continual denial of factual information (and I don't believe anybody said it's Islam that is the cause, it is the culture of Islam & how it views women. Not all Muslims are rapists is obvious, but some, and in a uniquely scary way that we've never seen before, are. No alcohol required, scores of Muslim males willing to join in after recieving a phone call, repeat no alcohol, racially motivated. Do you really deny that a SECTION, repeat not all, of the Muslim community has a problem with the way it views women?) is worrying.

I'll give you an example of how Islam does play a part in the mentality. Well firstly, Sharia courts in Pakistan often hand out punishments BASED ON ISLAMIC LAW where a female member of a clan must be pack raped as punishment for a crime committed by a male of that clan.

And your point about Russians, Chinese raping is evidence for me, because it is only in wartime that our type of societies witness such depravity. What is it about SOME, not all, repeat NOT ALL, Muslim males that lead them to behave this way? Could it be their role models, Sheiks, telling them it's fine?

This actually occurred at a juvenile det.ctr in NSW, where an Islamic Sheik was told to leave after telling a group of Lebanese inmates, five of which were gang-rapists, that in Islam they did nothing wrong, that a woman is just a piece of meat, a baby factory.

You haven't looked into Islam enough if you don't know such views are common. I encourage you to read widely from Muslim womens groups from Pakistan, Iran, that write on the net about such issues they face.

Part One

All, must say that those philosophies you write about are touched on by the Murdoch School of Humanities, but what Murdoch philosophies are on about now is the mess our global politics is in mainly through two things, neo colonialism and economic imperialism, alsmost as if we have slipped back into the 19th century - some say just into the greedy Roaring 1920s - when compamies like Dreyfus, beat our cockies down, in 1929-30, wheat producers with no price information, getting paid anything between five bob and one and eightpence a bushel, owing to the lack of phone lines.

Our interests in philosophies at present are to try to get rid of first in economics this trickle down marketing mentality with Big Biz, as we used to call them holding all the ace cards. You see it now so frightenly in Western Australia with over half our dairy farmers forced to sell out.

As regards agriculture, we are also asking since we were forced to back America and go bi-lateral, why it has weakened our bio-importation laws and allowed a shipment of foot and mouth suspected Brazilian carcase meat to be landed in NSW. George Negus gave the report on SBS Dateline, with farmers ropeable about it, but the whole thing quitened down virtually by an increasingly fscist-style government.

We believe it is only right, All, that in philosophy, we ask why these sorts of things are now happening, with one country like America believing its supreme unipolar position, allows it to do pretty well as it likes, as it has done by replacing the UN with the priority of one nation alone, as well as in mouthpiece, the word of one man alone

Part Two

The only reason these days, ALL, you would throw out the wise philosophies of Immanuel Kant, is that you could believe in Darwin’s survival of the fittest concept, as placing humanity in the same evolutionary position as the animals, with brute force being the only answer for survival.

Surely in your intellectual position you have read Darwin’s final statement in the Second Edition of The Mainstream of Humanity in which Darwin intimates that his survival of the fittest concept, is mainly physical and thus might only relate to the animal kingdom. Humanity, different to the animals has that gift of intellect, which means that humans do have that growing ability to reason, which also could mean that the survival of the fittest for us humans, could mean, and we sincerely hope so, that true fitness means the added addition of mental fitness - loving thy neighbour, and even loving thy enemy, which means, of course, to put ourselves in our enemy’s shoes for a while, offering to share the blame, as Nelson Mandela and Bishop Tutu have tried to achieve in South Africa.

Those are our philosophies, All - you really have not yet told us yours

To the WEAKEST responses I have had.

SCOUT

I stated, “Yes, peoples of all colours and cultures rape within and across culture - but, in Australia no one else rapes based on racial lines”.

I do not see how this is inconsistent with a ‘blue-eyed Anglo’, as I stated, “… people of all colours and cultures rape…” DID I NOT!! DID I NOT POST A RECOGNITION TO THAT ABOVE… (Thank you for the apology…)

The one who raped you DID NOT refer to you as an “Aussie slut’… NOR state, “you deserve to be raped because you are Australian”… NOR “f@#K you Leb style”… No. No I don’t think so…

You were NOT raped by up to 20 Middle Eastern men because you are Australian, WERE YOU?!!
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

NEXT PLEASE
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Strewth

I stated, “I am a Christian, I am not Jewish and not a Zionist at all”.

You responded, “And Thor, Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same”.

Yes, I DID know the distinction between Jewish and a Zionist – that is precisely why I stated,

“I am not Jewish “AND” not a Zionist …”.

HAD I NOT known the distinction, I would have written one or the other as then I would have seen them as one and the same – Note the above grammatical conjunction “AND”.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

The above = WEAK responses with no reason purposely ignoring statements of recognition which are posted by others and charges about posters not knowing distinction between Jewish and a Zionist to end discussion on realities for which you have run out of excuses and smoke screens.

It is fruitless to discuss such realities with people who are either so uneducated so as not to understand them, or choose not to recognise them because of emotions and fear.

It seems you studied a B. Arts or something similar and had contact with a lot of literature, but you never studied a course where analytical reasoning is key – it is clear from your INVALID response to the above statistics and your clear inability to comprehend statistical inference and reasoning.

Your last post did not refer to your premise which I have shown to be INVALID, therefore I will take it that you recognise its invalidity – I will take it step by step for you nonetheless:

1

The premise is that unemployment, low housing, and low education “explains” rape. I will take unemployment alone as I have a 350 word constraint, but I can also take low housing or low education later.

2
Denmark has a rate of unemployment of 6.1%.

Muslims immigrants make up about 2% of the population of Denmark [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Denmark ]

“If” ALL Muslim immigrants were unemployed, then 4.1% of Danish are unemployed (Note, the assumption that ALL Muslim immigrants are unemployed overstates the frequency in favour of the premise).

In aggregate there is a higher frequency of Danish who are categorised by unemployment, 4.1% ofTotalPopulation, than the frequency of Muslim immigrants who are also categorised by unemployment, 2% ofTotalPopulation. (NoteItIsTheAggregateThatMattersForFrequency).

3

If the premise that unemployment “explains” rape is correct, then one expects the Danish to have a higher rate of rape than the Muslim immigrants as they have a higher frequency categorised by unemployment.

4

The Danish who are categorised by unemployment, low housing, and low education have a rate of rape of up to 32% of all rapes.

Muslim immigrants who are categorized by unemployment, low housing, and low education have a rate of rape of up to 68% of all rapes.

As the Muslim immigrants have a higher rate of rape but have a lower frequency categorized by unemployment, low housing, and low education the premise that unemployment, low housing, and low education “explains” rape is FALSE.

The statistical reasoning above is clear and clean. Is there truly anyone who can reasonably say it is not?

I will no longer be viewing comments or posting on this thread as I am assured that I will be painted as a racist by Muslims, Islamists, and Islamofacists, and the leftists and liberalists who protect them, a response to realities for which they have run out of smoke screens.

Benjamin, correct, Muslims AtWar WithAustralianSocietyandInfidels

Benjamin: factoids, not "factual information". Define the difference between Islam and "the culture of Islam". "Some" Muslims are rapists: what a revelation! Like, how long is a piece of string? And why is alchohol a mitigating factor? Because it gets non-Muslim rapists off the hook? "A section of the Muslim community has a problem with the way it views women." You don't say. As does a section of the non-Muslim community: "We lived vicariously through [the boys I grew up with in Cronulla]. And we girls were just second class citizens...sort of nothing more than a life support system to a vagina." (Kathy Lette, Puberty Blues)/ "Shiksa n. 'gentile girl' from Hebrew siqsa, from sheqes, 'a detested thing'" (Philip Roth, Portnoy's Complaint) "The problem of racially motivated gang rapes is...UNIQUE to Muslims", you rant. And when other non-Muslim examples are raised you weasel out with: but that's "only in wartime". "Such views are common" - and your extensive research is..? You pretend concern about Pakistani women, yet dismiss Abu Ghraib as "uni pranks". Pure surrealism! The abyss between your Islamaphobic bigotry and reality really comes through when it's compared with the verdict US Major General, Antonio Taguba's 2004 report on Abu Ghraib: "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses."

Baoz: So, you're a Christian? Everyone equal in the eyes of God? Yet you believe in "divine mandates" over bits of land? Yes, as you say, "the Palestinian reaction is quite understandable in human terms" - and they're the only ones that really matter. Why should the Palestinians, alone of all peoples, bear the burden of your private religious fantasies? And Thor, before you go, and in light of your proclamation that you are "not a Zionist", if Israel/Palestine is not to become a binational, secular, democratic state for all of its citizens, Jewish and non-Jewish, a concept you scoffed at in an earlier post, what should it become?

Right on Strewth!

Seems to me that Thor was actually trying to argue that it is worse being raped by a Lebanese than an Anglo!

Has he had some personal experience to validate this latest absurdity?

Rape is rape and endemic to all races, colours, creeds. It is used by both sides in times of war and has always been about power over and humiliation of the victim.

This latest attempt at vilification of Islam is truly pathetic when the very issues of sexism within this religion exist within ALL religions. Ordination of women in the Anglican church? For example.

For Thor to use such a spurious argument and then to follow up by an equally sad attempt at insult - apparently (according to Thor) that I stated I was raped was an 'emotional' response indicative of an education in the arts. Well, apart from revealing an inability to conduct a rational debate, Thor - it as a Bachelor of Applied Science (Landscape Architecture) to which I owe my ability to reason even with the unreasonable such as yourself.

Now BD - I am giving you far more attention than you deserve - but women are mostly abused by men they know well rather than strangers and as a result of my experience I learnt self defence and have become as independent as I am. Women don't need protection BY men, we need it FROM men and the only people we can trust are ourselves.

Sorry for the lack of relevancy, but sometimes it is necessary to clarify for those who lack sufficient wit and intelligence.

Strewth didn't answer my question, likely because he couldn't bear to admit the truth. Your answer basically agrees with all my points anyway so I don't see what your against, other than that you're one of those people who, although they strongly believe in seperate ethnic identities, when it comes to crime prefer we are all Australian.

I'll ask it again. Do you deny that there the problem RACIALLY MOTIVATED gang-rape is something UNIQUE, repeat UNIQUE, to Islamic diasporas? (there is evidence of this from every single diaspora in the western world, as well as in Muslim nations, with Kurds gang raping Sunni's, or Sunni's gang raping Shi'ites, and so on, as happens often in Iraq)

I'll give him/her another example about the nature of the religious aspects to these crimes, as bizarrely, he denies them.

After the trials of the Skaf pack rapists (thirteen men in all, not one drunk - not an excuse but the only time a non-Muslim gang rape happens is from those who are drunk), an SBS crew went to Lakemba mosque, repeat mosque (note the religious link Strewth, a place of ISLAMIC worship) to get their views.

They were bashed, as they have been before, by the way, at the same HOLY mosque, but before they stopped filming they got some footage of Muslim racism. They asked a group of men what they thought of it and one yelled out "they were just sluts anyway" to which the entire mosque laughed.

If you don't see the value of women in that to these people you aren't worth explaining it to.

How dare you turn the rape stats in Europe that one of the posts mentioned around, saying he must hate muslims

Scout, you can't be serious when you comment that all religions have sexism as though they are all the same.

In Christianity, sure they don't ordain women, although some branches of the Anglican church aren't far away, with gays as well.

In Islam, and you really should know this, women aren't even allowed into the same part of the mosque. They can't give services, although one progressive Muslim homosexual woman in New York tried to, and is in hiding now.

Unlike Islam, in Christianity, if a gay wanted to start his own church, nothing would happen. Actually, the church goes as far as to say that gays don't go to heaven.

You try starting a gay mosque even in Australia, and Muslims here (who would have to be more liberal just by being around us - as opposed to say Afghani tribesmen) would KILL you, nothing less.

Wake up Scout, they aren't similar at all, and I'm objective - I don't believe in God.

Your comments to BD about women not needing protection to men, you don't need to tell him, you need to tell Muslims, who believe they are protecting them from evil men when they cover them up, don't let them drive a car or go outside without men.

You'd never think a culture that values women so highly would ever produce rapists would you, let alone scores of gang-rapists who all get together, drink no alcohol, yet somehow can be so cruel?

Rape is endemic to all races, but the issue of RACIALLY TARGETED PACK RAPES are unique to Muslim diasporas. It doesn't matter what you believe, the evidence is overwhelming, especially when you consider the high rates of it in Europe.

Read a little more Scout!

Have you ever heard of King Solomon Strewth? The Temple Mount, Knights Templar- Knights Hospitilars, etc, etc.
Start from there and work your way up. I can identify who your lecturer was, or is, and where. Those traits are quite specific And very Dangerous.

BB , that is a tough Question, I need some time to put that one in writing.

David Stove had an article on: “So You think you are a Darwinian”, located on the post above, and there lay specific points to counter that proposal, and another source is : “Sir Arthur Keith”- Evolution and Ethics. Are excellent sources from a scientific perspective. Fide Mae answered that in a most outstanding mannor on another thread.
I have to run, I will try being more Specific later. Seya.

Dear Scout
I'll ignore the deliberate personal insult "Lacking intelligence and wit"
and continue as though it had not been uttered.
You surprise me, biting those who reach out to you ...curious behavior indeed.

Sexism in the Church ? well, as for the Pope, I don't happen to think we ever needed or need one now. The Pope from my understanding is a human tradition, based on a shakey interpretation of one verse in the gospels "Upon this rock" etc...

So a female pope to me is moot.

I've covered this territory before, but it seems to have gone in one ear and out the other.
No question that there is a 'structure' in the New Testament, placing husbands in Authority over wives. But I repeat for the umpteenth time, it is a sacrificial and giving leadership "If anyone seeks to be first among you, he must become the servant of all" kind of thing.
I don't apologise for this, and I happily wear any flack about it.

Lets be clear about one thing though, the New Testament at no time suggests that a man can have multiple wives or that he can use an 'owned person' for sex. This was not the case in the Old Testament either. A man could MARRY a slave girl if she agreed, but he could not have sex with her apart from marraige.
The Quran is diametrically opposed to this, and allows the use of 'captive girls' FOR SEX ! Sura 23.5-6 The Quran SPECIFICALLY allows domestic violence 'you may BEAT her'...

I fail to see why we are charged with 'dumping on or vilifiying Islam' when we are speaking nothing but the truth. Backed up by facts.

The simple fact that in moderate Malaysia a womens movement has sprung up in protest at these practices being followed TODAY, by MAINstream muslims is evidence that it is a serious issue which needs to be exposed mercilessly. Call that vilification if you like. I call it responsible citizenship.

I stand by my assertation that there is not one religion on this planet which truly treats women and men as equals. One can troll through any religious text and find examples of women being treated as chattel. I have quoted a few examples in previous posts.

Now, Islam - desperately needs to be brought into the 21st century and many Muslims are trying to do this. But they won't have a chance while they are condemned as extremists and terrorists.

Christianity - equally needs renovation - while it is not as primitive as Islam it certainly has a long way to go before it is accepting of women as having equal status as men. (I merely gave the pope as an example - there are plenty of others).

As for the Islam bashers - look to yourselves first, that you persistently paint all followers of Islam with the same brush merely indicates your narrow minds and inability to see past your own set of beliefs.

Just for the record - I previously posted about a very bad experience I had with a Muslim colleague. Her behaviour had nothing to do with her religion - sociopathic behaviour is not exclusive to religion. I could easily be like all the rest of the bigots on this web-site and join in vilifying religion; she caused a great deal of misery - but I'm not that small minded.

I know that the majority of human beings want to get along with each other irregardless of their race, colour, sex or creed. Its just common sense. A sense that is in short supply among bigots.

Good on you Scout you said exactly what i wanted to say there are far to many BIGOTS on this Web Site if some of the Individuals writing on this Forum just think that we are All Related we Originated all the Same way Genetically Even the Rat and the Pig is like us they will want to think before they start writing ?

BD, "On you though, it suprises me that you seem so defensive of womens independance and not needing male protection, when your own experience suggests otherwise. But I won't grind that off topic axe any further here today." - looks like you gave that axe a bit of a rub on the wheel already David.

Apart from the physical strength issue (which is only sometimes a significant factor in law enforcement) why do make such a big deal of a womans need for male protection? The male advantage of being more likely to have greater physical strength can be overcome by numbers, weapons, willingness to do harm, preparedness etc. If Scout was given to undying gratitude for the physical protection of "her man" would that have helped her if he was somewhere else when she was attacked or if her attacker was armed with a gun? Get over it David and get some self esteme based on something more than your gender and prowess in the boxing ring. There are more important things in life.

On to other matters.
I have not trolled through the religious texts of a lot of the religions but suspect that Scout is on the money, mostly because all religions have been shaped by the cultures and times in which they started.

If the west wishes to be taken seriously in our calls for democracy in the middle east we have to show a legitimate respect for the outcomes of democracy. We need to work with Hamas with caution but also with respect for the choice of the Palistinian people. We need to equally censure both Palistine and Israel when they fail to respect their neighbours borders or legitimate needs. Anything else makes a mokery of claims about freedom and democracy.

R0bert

Rob
the 'females needing male protection' axe is not about me finding self esteem, its just a basic reality of life. I don't mean that in a 'demeaning' way mate.. and while your points about strength not being the only issue, are valid, they hint of a denial of that basic reality.
One persons 'equality' is another persons 'anarchy' so to speak. There is probably no point in me further expanding the point about structure in families for males and females, as unless we share the same foundation, it will not be very productive.

Male protection does not mean a bloke has to 'hover' over a woman 24/7
But if she is confronted in the outside, it might be that only a determined bloke can rescue her from some predatory moron, unless she can kick and run. Common sense should rule. In cases of increased risk, increase also the precaution. "I'm not walking down THAT street alone at this time of night, can you come with me"

Hamas ? 'respect' ? good grief Rob.. their founding charter is a document for genocide, cultural, social, military... and the fact that they were 'elected' in no way changes this. In fact, if anything, they may have been elected BECAUSE of it. I draw the conclusion that they were elected in part because of
a) Their determination to remove Israel
b) Their social work
c) The absense of financial corruption among them.

On the grounds of "a" Israel has a right to declare all out full scale war right now, and displace them totally. If you look closely at the wording of their charter, especially article 11, you will see this unless you are blind.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Article 18 on the role of women

"and of educating their sons to observe the religious injunctions in preparation for the duty of Jihad awaiting them."

Education is seen as preparation for war.

Democracy is meaningless with a founding document such as this.
Respect is suicidal and naive.

Negotiation might fit well with your basic 'niceness', but it won't go far in reality in this case.

-all – one of the reasons - OK, not the only one, but the main one - I so enjoy picking on you is your insistence on quoting David Stove, which I note you continue with. David was a fairly close friend of mine, deeply mischievous, and a deliberate controversialist, who enjoyed playing logical and rhetorical games, largely for the fun of seeing who fell for them. He succeeded, sadly, well beyond his wildest dreams. Conspiracy theories, such as those you propound, were anathema to him, although he did find the human capacity to fall for any explanation involving an evil genius, or genii, wryly amusing. Nonetheless, he would be turning in his grave, were he not such a staunch unbeliever, at the thought of the ways in which his little philosophical amusements have been appropriated by those who lack both discernment and irony. Remember, if you will, that David managed to ‘prove’, deductively, that God is not an Australian intellectual (in Cricket vs Republicanism), and ask yourself whether you’re sure you want to take everything he wrote at face value. And if you decide you do, there’s no hope for you.

Tell you what, though – you stop quoting David, and I’ll stop insulting you. Promise. Even though I’ll miss it. And even though I think you deserve it for many other reasons. Oh, BTW, local boy though he he was, I can think of few people less likely to 'make a lot of scene' (Your words). Made a fair bit of SENSE, but only to those in the know.

All- Have I ever heard of "King Solomon Strewth"? No. I've heard of King Solomon, but not "King Solomon Strewth". What a coincidence he's got my nickname! As for have I heard of "The Temple Mt Knights Templar - Knights Hospitilars, etc, etc", have you heard of Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and leprechauns? Didn't think so.

Thanks Anomie,
I would think anyone who reads David’s work, would pick up very soon on the humor , that is why I like the guy, and a Mathematician to boot. So I better stick with Quantum Quark theories.
You sound like my Mum: My Dear –All indeed.

What is more practical: investing in development and modernization of issues quarrying and competing (it is the most polite word to use) each other or forget about decaying stuff leaving it to a natural way of deceasing