Noel Pearson is to be highly congratulated for this intelligent and potentially productive essay in which he continues his long time objective of furthering the best interests of his people, our indigenous people.

How remarkably different are his proposals, compared to the past, and failed, policies of the loony left, with their paternalistic notions of 'welfare' and 'say sorry'.
Indeed, past policies implemented by various governments under pressure from the loony left have not only deprived the aboriginal people of an ability to become equals, but have created an elite class of aboriginal/anglo/celtic opportunists who milk the system for their personal gain.

For the record, where I refer to aboriginal people becoming 'equals'
I am not suggesting that 'equality' means divesting of their cultural inheritance.

( Further, but outside this thread, I suggest that Noel Pearson's proposals should apply to all disadvantaged people in our society irrespective of ethnic origin).

I've always found grivence with the idea of extended leases, its not real property rights, is it?

I came up with a little idea a long while ago which I think would work quite well. Basically, each area which landrights cover is held by a corporations made up of all the members of the commune with a board elected by them. The corporation could elect to sell off land or lease it at prices it selects. Members of the commune who hold part ownership may even wish to sell that ownership if they think it in their best interest.

They could even decide to float them selves on the stock exchange if they, again thought it in their best interest.

For a very informative contribution to the 'Indigenous home ownership' discussion I would recommend the report entitled 'Land rights and development reform in remote Australia' available from the Oxfam Australia website at:
http://www.oxfam.org.au/campaigns/indigenous/index.html

First, let me say that I support Noel Pearson's approach of trying to build self respect within indigenous communities as a basis for resolving the social ills which afflict these communities and the people who live in them.
Second, let me say that I agree with Noel's strategy in recent years of cajoling those in power rather than directly attacking them. Noel has apparently learned from being repeatedly knocked over and flung aside by the sails of the windmill of power. Cajoling the powerful with their own rhetoric is a much cannier approach, and allows an ever growing pile of hypocritic inaction to accumulate and, perhaps, become too shameful to continue to ignore.
Third, I have to disagree with Noel's first sentence: “In mainstream Australia, we have a strong and enviable set of institutions that includes a representative political process, a sound judicial system and a set of national social norms that are egalitarian and encourage innovation and dynamism.”
Each of the assertions in this sentence is a myth. I want to specifically disagree with the first assertion: that Australia has “a representative political process”. If this were true, then every ethnic indigenous group would be directly represented in the representative assemblies appropriate to them. But this is not so for any ethnic indigenous group anywhere in Australia – never has been – and never can be without fundamental electoral reforms.
Neither Neville Bonner nor Aden Ridgeway were exceptions. Bonner was selected by the Liberal Party, elected by the general population, and eventually rejected by the Liberal Party. Ridgeway was selected by the Australian Democrats, and elected by the general population. Neither directly represented ethnic indigenous communities.
Perhaps direct representation of ethnic indigenous communities in the representative assemblies appropriate to them would significantly enhance their progress toward self respect.
Why isn't the issue of whether indigenous ethnic groups should have the right to direct political representation ever raised and put on the agenda?

We have too many one size fits all economic rules. When sizing the minimum wage for people in Sydney we look at rental costs and job opportunities. If we then apply such rules to a place like Cape York we easily dettach people from the practical economic opportunities that may exist.

Welfare should be defederalised and moved to the states or local government level. Along with minimum wage regulations and th bulk of the taxation powers.

Power should be kept close to the people not centralised in Canberra. Peope should think globally but rules, actions and initiatives should be decided locally

Thanks Ernest for your honesty.

It’s good to see that you have not accepted what the lionized Pearson contends to be 'truth' in regards to representation and law for Indigenous people in politics as somehow exemplarary - and you have raised questions that Pearson himself has abandoned in his neo-conservative love affair with himself or with those neoconservative American writers he never references in his speeches - and in his horribly written sociological polemics he shamelessly publishes. Don Watson has said he writes like a clerk from an accounting firm and I tend to agree.

Graham Ring: Thanks for the Oxfam link mate! It’s pertinent to real discussions about home ownership, land tenure and political decisions and representation by Aboriginal people for Aboriginal people. You won't hear TO’s giving hysterical and moralizing speeches in Right Wing think tanks about what other TO’s should or should not do.

This passage from the Oxfam report is worth citing here:

"Any changes to land rights or native title legislation must be directed toward the development goals articulated by Indigenous Australians, must be undertaken with appropriate accountability to Indigenous landowners and native title holders, and must respect their rights as Indigenous Peoples – rights to land, culture and identity."

Pearson's evangelical black bashing pontifications now have the unwavering support of those wanting absolution and silver bullet solutions about ‘problem blacks'. It’s provided them with a neatly packaged and convenient discourse that absolves them from knowing the issues in greater historical and political depth.

In closing:

-Rights to identity also mean how we are represented in public discourse. I hope Lachlan Murdoch and those Think tanks that invite Pearson to speak at their cheese and wine night functions - and on our behalf - are reading this!

-Pearson provides no evidence that the imposition of obligations makes people better citizens and helps them escape poverty or provides any beneficial outcomes.

-Pearson provides no evidence that privatizing Aboriginal land will automatically propel Aboriginal people into a real economy. Pearson’s Gordon Geckoist “greed is good’ logic doesn't fool me or other Aboriginal people for a minute.

Dear Noel
I'd like to hear some of your thoughts about the actual creation of jobs/employment opportunities in Cape York, fill us in on what you think might be viable.

Aboriginal Art ?
Tourism ?
Beef raising ?

Noel, do you know anything about the Yir Yoront of Cape York ? I read a very sad anthropological study about them and the cultural destruction ensuing from the introduction of Steel Axes.

There is a very interesting model village in Kuching, Sarawak called (in English) 'Culture village" where the various tribal house styles and culture is daily open, and they also have traditional dancing a couple of times a day, its well done and might be worth looking at for Aboriginals also.

Noel bit too vague.

All this while industry and enterprises in populated areas are so mismanaged that they can’t afford to pay a living wage - populated areas where industry and enterprise are closing down.

Noel you provide no specifics. No - for instances. I would have liked to have seen some for intances such as: For instance: We could bottle our rain water and sell it on. Or, for instance, we could market the areas cultural significance somehow. No suggestions as to who will pay for the set up. Government subsidy? Bank loan? That is all we need an indebted Indigenous community in their own homeland. Also, I hope the traditonal owners are not being set up for some space-launching-world-arms-type venture.
Gadfly: The ridiculous right no doubt have the solution - let's start by going on about the "loony left". Better still. Bring back the likes of Pauline Hanson to stir up a little racial hatred or old Joh to knock up a few more dams in his own voter catchment (not the rainfall one). Then you could top it off by throwing the guilt trip onto Indigenous folk for not finding “work” in their tradional lands (especially Cape York). Better still let's get into some ridiculous-right Boltism: the-left-hate- me-cry-baby Boltism, the-greenies-are-nazi-punks- and-they-hate-everyone-and-everything Boltism, scientists-are- out-to-trick-us-into-thinking-dumb-thoughts Boltism, blacks-hate-white-because-they-want-some-recognition-for-the injustice Boltism, artists-are-not-real-people-but-aliens-on-a-mission-to-take-all-our-money-back-to-Venafaxinet (whose population Bolt envies so much) -third-rock-from-Solian Boltism, Bob Brown- hates-me-cause-he-dresses-better-and-speaks-better-sense-than-me Boltism. It seems that the right has their “useful idiots” as well.
If it weren’t for caring and genuinely compassionate people, some of whom are seen as leftist, the Indigenous folk would still be having their kids taken away . They’d still be stuck in missions (true paternalism) being smacked across the back of the heads if they didn’t say the Lord’s prayer with enough enthusiasm.
I think the left have done more for the Indigenous causes than Gadfly and his right-wing clan can ever allow their left-hating selves to graciously admit. Best wishes to you Noel

Rancitas,

Your beginning statement appear defeatist. You seem to be arguing that, because a proportion of of urban dwelling Aussies of non indiginous descent may be subject to your proposition that industry "can't afford to pay a living wage", that there is no point in being educated or to stive for greater aspirations. Nonsense.

Further you say sarcastically "the ridiculous right no doubt have the solution". Reread what I wrote. Where do I say that the "right" have "the solution" ? I do not beleive that either the political left or right have a solution - at least not until people like Noel Pearson are listened to.

Indeed, in defence of Noel Pearson, who surely knows more about real world of the aboriginal people than you or me, I most strongly object to the patronising manner in which others in this thread have spoken of him.

I spoke of "paternalism" with criticism inter alia of "welfare".
With the introduction of welfare, aboriginal people (understandably) could not see the logic of 'working' when they could get paid for not working. So they drifted back to their humpies or worse still the State provided slums.
When they did so they, of course, took their chidren with them -- thus depriving those children of education; education being provided by the school of the air or, often, by the employer's wife or other employees.

In the 1960's the School Of The Air in Longreach (now the School Of Distance Learning) had an enrolment which included some 20% aboriginal children.
Today, not a single aboriginal child.

Further, regarding paternalism, was the creation by the political left of a subculture of aboriginal/anglo/celtic elitists who opportunisticaly grasped onto the largesse of governments to power and wealth while paying only lip service to the needs of the real aboriginal people who they purportedly represented.

Where you say "the left has done more for the indigenous causes than Gadfly and his right wing clan" you are wrong on two counts.
The political left has much to answer for.
( I could have written more than 350 words)

Rancitas
I think you must be related to the screen writer of 'Kingdom of Heaven' in which the only 'Christian' bishop was portrayed as a scheming low life who drooled at the thought of more Sarasin blood being spilt... your comment about 'If they didn't say the Lords Prayer enthusiasticlly enough earning them cuff over the back of the head' had better be grounded in actual verifiable evidence and personal testimony, (which indeed it may be) or you have made a grossly irresponsible charge against 'The Church' and missions which I don't take too kindly too, seeing as I served 8 yrs + with a mission to Borneo where it would boggle the mind for such a thing to even remotely happen. Sounds like something out of Dickens. Perhaps you just saw it on 'TV'. Very close to 'vilification' to me.

So, back it up with (to use your phrase) "specifics" or please refrain from such things. In any case, how the heck does such a comment help this debate ?

Having said that, I am in agreement with the 'responsible' part of your post (before you degenerated into a mindless anti 'right' tirade) about Noel being more specific and giving some 'for instances'.
Yes, that is very necessary.

More needed though, is an outline of the framework in real, comprehensible acheivable terms where all this can take place.
I think you will do the cause of reconciliation and Indigenous progress much more service by trying to help rather than throw mud.

Gadfly, a hearty 'amen' to what you said.

It is necessary to take a long view into the future with this difficult theme. And you have two choices,
1. Let it alone, leave the people to get on with it and do not interfere.
2.Make sure every child receives an education even if it means forcing the parents to ensure the child gets to school.
The first option will leave the community where it will not prosper, it will stagnate and rot.
The second option, if rigidly enforced, will see the children receive training in ways to help their community, perhaps by becoming teachers, doctors,nurses, anything but nothing.
There are whole generations of Aborigines wasted by doing nothing, learning nothing, they deserve better than that.

Noel, for a well educated fellow with some impressive long-ranged visions you can also be incredibly short-sighted and short on words with regards to the real reasons why.

i was flabergasted at reading your account of cape yorkers who've only ever experienced the life of income support. i think you need claify your statement with some time lines. my reckoning is something like this, up until 1967 everyones wages were withheld and doled out in bits and pieces with the remainder being held in trust to eventually become what we know today as the Stolen Wages. that scenario then set the scene for what was to come after 1967, your income support era - about 30 years worth, about 1 or 2 generations worth.

im heartened to see that others realise that all that glimmers is not gold.

finally, because in essence i can see where and what the reform agenda is getting at, i have two words -

kibbutz community.

i too am interested to see our communities and people thrive. my interests have led me to look further into kibbutz communities and whether that type of model is more appropriate to our communities. take a look noel, im hoping you might surprise yourself.

Several contributors to this thread have made comments along the lines of 'Noel Pearson should be more specific'.
Perhaps these contributors have not read his earlier publications produced in edited form on this forum.
"What Cape York Communities can do to help themselves" 15/6/2001.
"How the Commonwealth Government can help stop Aboriginal welfare dependency" 15/1/2000.

In both of those publications he did make specific proposals -- at least as specific as he can, in his position, without triggering rants of 'dictator'.
Easiest access to those past articles is by clicking-on his photo at top right of the current publication.

To kalalli,
I, and I suspect others, would appreciate being able to learn more about your notion of the application of Kibbutz style society within the aboriginal community.
What about taking the time to write this up and present it as a subject article?

Gadfly you are very good at Bolt’s method of putting words into others’ mouths. That is deception. The Liberals and business are trying to cut wages to ridiculous rates in his country to supposedly be competitive. Thus they apparently can’t afford to pay a living wage. I believe that education (not indoctrination) is the cornerstone of any democracy. That education must include the ability to reason (so that kids can work out that fashionable things like political incorrectness is undermining authority in relation to setting boundaries and is, indeed, a subtle form of anarchy), basic psychology (so they understand why it is so important to be politically correct in dealing with the other) as well as RWA . So we need WRRAP in our schools. There are too many people in our society that don’t have the ability to move beyond adolescent schemas.
I agree that people must “strive for aspirations”. However, I wonder would Gadfly and Boaz be so agreeable if those aspirations didn’t fit in with the general population’s ideals or cultural mores. It was wrong of you, gadfly, to suggest I thought otherwise.
Noel Pearson’s views are clearly pandering to specific culture of the right. Other posts help confirm this view : For instance: “Cajoling the powerful with their own rhetoric is a much cannier approach.”
Re:” ridiculous right” I was responding to your comment re: the “loony left” with : "the ridiculous right no doubt have the solution". Reap what you sow.
You say: ‘Reread what I wrote. Where do I say that the "right" have "the solution" ? I do not believe that either the political left or right have a solution - at least not until people like Noel Pearson are listened to.’ Are you serious? Why not seriously listen to other indigenous folk - like Rainer? Why do you choose someone clearly pandering to your ideals and those of the right?

Gadfly: you say: “I spoke of ‘paternalism’ with criticism inter alia of ‘welfare’.” So what, I spoke of it in reference to stealing indigenous children-forcing them into missions. You have no right to the moral high-ground. Maybe, if we paid the indigenous folk the royalties and a portion of our GDP, they could live as they chose on their “portfolio earnings”. How much worse off would have the Indigenous folk been if they had no income to sustain them - no “welfare”?
Noel Pearson has taken on a huge task of trying to mix development with Indigenous culture. (I think there is no such word as development in the Indigenous language – this tells me how foreign Noel’s thinking is to Indigenous culture) . However, to my understanding indigenous religion is dynamic and it is that that, I think, will help the various Indigenous cultures across Australia survive.
Gadfly, you think I’m defeatist! Easier to say that than explain how an area of little population is going to sustain the goals that Noel posits. My concern is that should such a venture fail it will be more ammo for the racists. I am also concerned that Indigenous people will be pressured into something that is not an authentic expression of their community’s culture – just as, I think ,“welfare” is not.
Boaz: Don’t you think infidels like me have a history? Do you think Satan keeps my animated self stranded in the wastelands, the leftlands, with Sodom (based on another of Boaz”s nonsensical slags)? Your attitude fits your very narrow, sometimes irrational view of the world. You clearly think you are superior to others who disagree with the church (and you)? The treatment of indigenous children in missions is well documented. I also worked with a blackfella; we had some interesting yarns re: his “special” treatment as we cut the fat off sheep skins. I trimmed he loaded. Primary and secondary sources. Are you , Boaz, that Boltscammed that you still don’t think the “church” took their belief in the inferiority of Indigenous culture outside the boundaries of humane treatment

Gadfly,

I sense that even if and others had read widely (as I have for a few years now) it would still not be enough for you.
Please don't assume that Indigenous people in this particular discussion are not informed, not well read or have the life experiences that in many cases are equal, if not superior to NP.

NP does enjoy media favouritism and this results (in my view) a very artificial, one dimensional understanding of the issues and political contexts by non-Indigenous peoples. The manufacturing of NP’s views has never really come under critical review by Indigenous and non-Indigenous people. That you have not read them in the press does not mean they do not exist and are plentiful. They do are they are.

The dumbing down of Australian democracy over the last 10 years of conservative rule and Labor dysfunctional has had a dire impact on those who never enjoyed an equal space in public discourse and media coverage. 100 stories about what Pearson thinks about this or that is not the same as 100 media stories (properly investigated) about a variety of Indigenous issues and perspectives.

That NP may be your own intellectual portal into Indigenous affairs, history and politics does not mean it is ours.

Thanks Rancitas, finally someone who gets it!

Rainier I always read your posts.

I do not often post on indigenous threads because as a caucasian Aussie I cannot speak for the original Australians. However, I enjoy reading your perspective and even though my background and experiences are probably different to yours I find myself agreeing with your posts most of the time both here and on other threads.

Don't let the naysayers ever get to you. There are plenty of us who support and applaud your opinions and reasoning.

Have you thought of submitting an article yourself?

(formerly Trinity)

To Rancitas.

Mate. How about a bit less of character assasination, and more scrutiny of points raised. On the 'Church' issue, you made a blanket statement which cast aspersions on ALL Churches, and I simply asked you to back it up with documented sources ..at least one. All you did was say 'its well documented'. Well looking more closely at that... I'm sure and know that there are documented cases of abuse, sexual and other by SOME people in SOME Church/missions, and thats why I challenged you. You tarred all with the same brush. I still await a source for your 'cuff on the back of the head' for an unenthusiastic Lords Prayer recital.
If I challenge statements of Muslims I give chapter and verse, its the least one can do.

Now, for you and Ranier, I am gobsmacked at what you are actually on about besides verbally destroying NP .... He raises some points, some of us have asked him to fill in the blanks, and now, I ask YOU guys to do the same..please. Give us some positive, constructive approach to advancing aboriginal interests, (and yes, if they DON'T fit 'my mould' whatever that is, I am happy to hear it,) but if you look at what I write, I am DEFENDING indigenous culture and land, so I fail to see where all this attack is coming from. Perhaps you guys are secretly right wing rednecks ? :)

So, lets look at Cape York, and indigenous interests, (which to me, dont neccessarily have to include the western concept of 'employment')
and work together here, to see if we can come up with something which we can all take away at least knowing we tried.

What are....Indigenous interests ? might be a good starting point.

Kallili, Ranier, NP.. all indigenous, who would know better than you guys ?

I have just recently attended a conference at which Noel Pearson spoke. I found him extremely plausible, but I was disappointed, that he, unlike the other speakers, did not offer evidence. It reminded me of a quote from the Fin Rview I had seen that very morning about someone else's "purity of untested thought"

I am always a bit worried about ascribing moral turpitude to those on welfare or any other unearned income which we tend to do. I have been extremely impressed by

"Relationships between poverty and pyschopathology: a natural experiment."Jane Costello
, Scott N. Compton Gordon Keeler Adrian Angold
JAMA, The Journal of the American Medical Association

Oct 15, 2003 v290 i15 p2023(7)

Basically it reinforces the view that the difference between the poor and their richer neighbours is the lack of money not their imputed failings as people. I am forming the view that the left or right on any issue tend to represent the poles of psychological attribution. "there but for the grace of god go I" on the other hand "they bring it on themselves"

If Noel does nothing else then he is to be commended for acting as a flack magnet. Observing this string, it is clear that many people feel the need to process all inputs through a political filter before attempting to assess them as solutions to blackfella problems.

This process never solves problems because it is based on clutter. It is the tool of choice of the bureaucrat whose primary goal is the maintenance of their franchise and the continuation of the problems that justify the need for their services. Ironically, clutter is a simple and easy intellectual habit to fall into and one that marginal communities are particularly vulnerable to because it appears comprehensive.

The solution to the problem of blackfella disadvantage will be found sdomewhere away from the distractions of flack. Key questions like, "how do we get people who, by world standards, own some very valuable real estate, to start thinking like the wealthy landowners they are?" And the best way to do that is to find out what tools are used by wealthy landowners, either individually or collectively, and make those tools available.

The resulting efforts may produce the odd failed experiment and a few underwhelming results but the practise will be invaluable. And wealthy landowners are conspicuous by the fact that they put protections in place to secure their capital base before assuming risk. This makes them better at accumulating land than losing it.

I stand by my comments. I have given readers my primary source. It is what it is and posters can decide for themselves as to its veracity. It is clearly a personal account. I am not sure how you expect me to quote “a chapter and verse” from a talk with an old mate. I can back up my claim: “The treatment of indigenous children in missions is well documented”.

Annie Holden and Noel wrote an article: “Time for Leadership..." way back. You could apply the last sentences to the current situation. I read this about 10 years ago and it is like the government and Indigenous organisations have been stuck in a time warp. I think Indigenous issues such as the stolen generation need to be resolved otherwise the partnership will not be based on goodwill but egoism.

The HREOC have nearly six hundred personal accounts of stolen children on file. Some of them can be read at http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/stolen_children/stories/html
See also. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen_summary/stolen05.html
Relevant finding below.
“Excessive physical punishments were common
…One in six children who were institutionalised reported physical assault and punishments.…
“Dormitory life was like living in hell. It was not a life. … But we got a lot of bashings.”

Boaz, I think you have used my apparent euphemistic euphuism to push your agenda re: Muslims and your seeming desire to rid Australia of multi-culturalism. Also, Perseus, Boaz no mention of how Indigenous culture will maintained in your suggestions. For instance: Indigenous peple because of their strong connection like "to 'place' non-aboriginal visitors in their country in their own categories of social meaning through a process of personalisation and incorporation." I am trying to imagine some of the monocultural touristy boofheads respecting that.

Example re documentation continued:
From HREOC site.
Lance:
“St Joseph's Home - Sebastopol - is where I grew up. It was run by nuns wearing black habits. The only Aboriginal kids there were just me and another bloke. ... The nuns were really strict on you. We had a big dormitory where the boys slept. I used to go to bed crying. I remember a nun with a torch saying, 'Stop crying'. I hid my head. She came back and hit me on the head with the torch. I still have the scar today.”
John:
“If we answered an attendant back we were 'sent up the line'. Now I don't know if you can imagine, 79 boys punching the hell out of you - just knuckling you. Even your brother, your cousin.
They had to - if they didn't do it, they were sent up the line. ...Before I went to Kinchela, they used to use the cat-o'-nine-tails on the boys instead of being sent up the line. This was in the 30s and early 40s.”
Evie:
“I was taken away in 1950 when I was 6 hours old from hospital and put into Retta Dixon until I was 2 months old and then sent to Garden Point. I lived in Garden Point until 1964. And from Garden Point, Tennant Creek, Hermannsburg. While in Garden Point I always say that some of it was the happiest time of my life; others it was the saddest time of my life. ... The saddest times were the abuse. Not only the physical abuse, the sexual abuse by the priests over there. And they were the saddest because if you were to tell anyone, well, the priests threatened that they would actually come and get you.
... And just every day you used to get hidings with the stock-whip. Doesn't matter what you did wrong, you'd get a hiding with the stock-whip. If you didn't want to go to church, well you got slapped about the head. We had to go to church three times a day.”

Peace and prosperity for the indigenous Australians of Australia is very important to provide them the opportunity to excell in all areas in which they wish to proceed.

I believe that the Indigenous people need help to set up business', and assistance from the government to discourage others from taking control of what little industry they have.

1.Tourism operators in Aboriginal Land must be licensed on the basis that they employ local people (ie. this may have prevented last years Croc. death in NT).

2.An indigenous body needs to be established to work with, develop and wholesale indigenous Art / Craft etc. This should work by selling on commission, and would quickly revolutionise the current market. The need for this is that although the artists are indigenous, the bulk of the money at present is kept by non-indigenous art buyers and resellers. The other benefit of which would be the opportunity for local people to educate their children of the stories behind the art, and to pass on their knowledge and skills.

3.Circle courts (see western NSW) should be used for all alcohol / drug related offences and minor property / violent offences. This would provide a culturaly appropriate alternative to the criminal justice system, and may avoid the ongoing conflict with police.

4.Strict audit and financial control of Indigenous organisations is needed due to the previous mismanagement / misaproppriation so prevalent in the past. This has seriously affected the credibility of indigenous organisations within communities and in the wider communities, and caused the loss of significant funding and resources.

5.Assistance should be provided to remote / regional communities to allow them to establish agricultural / pastoral assets. in most cases this is entirely possible, yet no effort has yet been made to build this infrastructure. Due to their remote locations, it is economically viable in many cases for communities to make serious money supplying both community stores and local towns etc (particularly if CDEP funding is used to pay staff during the initial phase(s)).

6.traineeships with the local agricultural / pastoral training providers should be available in community schools.

I do not advocate just throwing money at the problem, these proposals are viable, and require less money than is currently being thrown at the problem.

Aaron