Do we believe Waleed Aly, or do we not. Is he talking a load of 'old taqiyya' or is he not?

yes Leigh,

lying for islam "taqiyya"..... the only islamists i trust are ex islamists. The day muslims start lobbying for protection for ex muslims and have a mass exodus from the religion as xtians have during the 20th century, will be the day the West can engage in realistic talks peace.

Hirsi Ali is a great politcian and example of a genuine ex muslim protesting against islamic crime and .

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2157/context/archive

Dear Waleed...
maybe its time to drag out some of the emails from the 'nutbags' bin ?

or.. maybe revisit the 'stupid/villifying/untrue/loony' words of a couple of pastors ? :)

It all comes out in the end... maybe an apology to the 2 Danny's would be in order ?

Its most interesting how the PM calls for "Muslims" to come forward with any information about radicals.. and then the Attourney General tries to 're-package' it as 'No, we are not meaning just Muslims' but surprise surprise... apart from the various crime gangs doing the drugs thing, the only 'mob' trying to wreck our state and replace it with Sharia is.....(fill in the blank) well I don't need to mention that.

I urge you Waleed, to consider the true faith of peace, trust and belief in the "Prince of Peace"...Christ Jesus, God manifest... "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father".......

and rejoice as I do in the fact that in this state, you can call on me to be a Muslim and I can call on you to embrace Christ and discover life, without anyone hunting me down... isn't it nice living in a state with a Judao Christian background ?

Cheers

Thanks Waleed, for another very reasonable and responsible article from a leading moderate Australian Muslim. I only hope you're correct that the arrests provide a catalyst for Australian Muslims to decide collectively that their best interests will be served by denouncing the ratbags and nutcases who give the vast majority of decent law-abiding Muslim Australians a bad name.

I note that your article thus far has attracted 3 comments - one of which casts aspersion on your honesty, and two of which exhort you to convert to Christianity. Do Leigh, meredith, or Boaz really want to engage in dialogue with Muslims, or is it just the old xenophobic soapbox? Methinks it's the latter, which is a damn shame because such comments increase nobody's understanding of each other.

I also note that the arrests were conducted without the need for Howards' "patriot" legislation.

Waleed,

I agree with your analysis, however the fact that these matters are being heard in an open court tends to confirm that these arrests were carried out using the pre-existing crimes act 1914.

Time will tell, particularly when ASIO/AFP get around to testing their new powers.

nb I concur with the comments of Mahatma duck with regard to the percieved need to convert muslims, or to doubt their honesty / integrity.

Waleed Aly has contrived an excellent strategy to protect himself from his critics. Both from his own community and the mainstream. The opening of his article has the aim to mollify Muslims, that would consider him not to be a "true believer" of Islam, from what he is going to say at the close of his article. The latter part, to assuage people of the mainstream, who have justifiably great doubts about the honesty of many Muslim leaders who tend to double-speak, with his apparent moderation.

This is an ingenious cover game played by Waleed. But it's good to see that not all Australians, like Leigh and meredith, are going to be duped by his stratagem.

A man of all "seasons" cannot be trusted.

CON

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Blog address: http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com
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Themo - Xerxes would have seen Waleed as typically Athenian.

Waleed should be commended for stating the bloomin obvious in such a convincing way. This makes him a good political aspirant.

Speeches and politics are a far better form of Muslim expression than bombs or crime. Rather than being the typical, heavily accented, "mullah" Waleed may be the new breed of Muslim politician who can appeal both to Muslims and the non Muslim majority.

May assimilation for all follow.

Mr Duck...
"Australian Muslims to decide collectively that their best interests will be served by denouncing the ratbags and nutcases who give the vast majority of decent law-abiding Muslim Australians a bad name."

Does that include Islam's great prophet? If you read about him and the things he did, it is obvious that the first thing Muslims should do is recognize that, at times, we was not a very nice guy. You wouldn't want him to be alone with your family.

But, as I have proven, Muslims absolutely refuse to consider or believe their own accounts. Consider this:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

Do you think that Muslims will admit that Mohammed was a wifebeater? If they cannot be honest about simple things, how do you expect them to tell the truth about their own thoughts and those of their community. Remember, for the "vast majority" of Muslims, old Mo - murderer, torturer and slaver - is their great example. Think about that. One would think that some Muslims would, sooner or later, stop and think: Why is it that it is always Muslims that kill, persecute, riots, behead, rape? Why? Dream on.

Terror isn't going away. It will get worse. There will be more arrests. Even so one day terror will strike, and our Muslims friends here will be making the same excuses. In the articles at OLO by Muslims, there is never any deep reflection as to why this is so. As in Waleed's article, it is always a "fringe" group that is not part of the "real" Islam. There is no self-critique as to the essance of Islam's message and how it relates to other faiths and non-Muslims in general. To do so would be painful and it would cost them dearly, in so many ways.

DB. Thanks for the link to the article about how Muslims treat apostates in England. This is also why so few Muslims can be honest - they are afraid of the truth and its implications and consequences. This is the just another reason why Islam deserves nothing but contempt and ridicule.

Kactuzkid aka John

Another article about how Muslims treat minorities, from their own press:

"Talking to the press in his office the DPO Tahir Alam specifically stressed that there was no parallel of shameful, disgust and condemnation of the heinously perpetuated crime, and the perpetuator Christian national Yousaf Masih would be spared no quarter for the barbarous crime he committed. He said that a full impartial enquiry would be conducted, and if police were found to be lax in the case, they would equally be reprimanded. Meanwhile thousands of protesters enraged by this blasphemous act formed small spinster groups and attacked the churches in the vicinity."

Note the vocabulary. Of course the police are there to protect citizens, so here they go...

"Meanwhile in a bid to arrest those responsible for torching churches, the elite force of the police picked two journalists, Tariq Sethi and Rana Yasin, who were covering the incident."

I don't know if I should laugh or cry. Please read the whole story at
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=125178

Or, better, read this more objective account:
http://www.dawn.com/2005/11/13/top6.htm

This is Islam. This is the religion that our dear friends here at OLO think we should accept as peaceful and tolerant (tell that to the Coptic nun knifed in Egypt last month by a young Muslim thug yelling "Allah is great!"). Yes, indeed, he is a great.....

This is the religion that is always claiming that they being unjustly persecuted when we take measures, no matter how small, to protect our families and lives.

This is the religion that says we should believe they are peaceful and tolerant, but is responsible for outrage after outrage, attack after attack, injustice after injustice. Does Waleed ever stop and ask himself about this? Does he care? Can he be honest?

The recent arrests of terrorism suspects in Australia will make no difference whatsoever. Nothing will change. Some muslims will continue to plan their terror opperations; other Muslims will deny their actions and make excuses and the "politically correct" elites will invite all of us site, smile, hold hands and sing "kumbaya" together.

Kactuz, again

Saw you on Compass a few weeks ago Waleed.

I've been reading through your material.

I've worked with muslims in 4 different countries and had them as neigbours in 3.

I don't believe you.

Kaktuz,

It would have helped if you read the article before your repetitive statement " This is Islam".

The article you quoted mentions that the incident was caused by “a fight over gambling debts between Muslims and Christians”.

Strange given that both religions especially islam are strict on gambling!

Do you still stick by your statement that it is ‘about religion’?

What is next? a fight between Muslims and Christians over the ownership of a bottle of Vodka?

Meredith,

Thanks for the reference. We have to continue digging for the truth. We will never hear it from our ‘friendly’ Muslims intent on world domination.

Duck,

Get yourself a dictionary. If you must use terms of abuse towards other people, at least get the right word. Xenophobia means a fear or hatred of foreigners. I neither fear nor hate foreigners, and you have no basis for suggesting that I do. As a third generation Australian, a few years into my sixth decade, I have seen plenty of different groups of foreigners arrive in this country. I have conservative opinions on immigration – believing it should now occur only in limited numbers, with focus on Australia’s needs – but I do not hate anyone just because they are foreign.

The race and countries of origin of Muslims in Australia is of no interest to me. It is the religion I dislike. I think it means trouble for Australia, and your name-calling will make no difference to my opinion.

When anyone tries to ‘engage in dialogue with Muslims’ – not just here but in the wider world – it’s like getting blood out of a stone. They are brilliant at changing the subject and dodging questions. Any politician would envy them. One particular ‘leader’ says one thing one day, and the exact opposite the next day. He can speak English when it suits, but not when he gets a tricky question, which, he claims, can’t be translated, from Arabic to English!! And this bloke is far from being the only Muslim doing it.

Are you a Muslim, MD? You seem to spend a lot of time having a go at everyone else, but not coming up with anything concrete to refute the opinions you disagree with. Do you really feel that you have the moral right to question the desire of others to enter into dialogue, Duckie? When you don’t do it yourself

My apologies, Leigh. After your explanation, I now realise that your comments are not xenophobic. Rather, they are simply bigoted and offensive. How on earth are we as a society going to accommodate Muslim Australians when people like you assert that they are inherently dishonest, or people like meredith demand that they renounce their religion before they can be believed?

Such unrealistic and intolerant attitudes can only exacerbate and cultural differences, rather than lead to a stable and harmonious society. Demonising Muslims won't make them go away - rather it just gives them cause for aggrievement.

In terms of religion, I would best be described as agnostic. However, while I don't believe in god/s, I do know that religions perform many positive functions for their adherents. On the other hand, by their exclusive nature they alienate everybody else - which is why I'm not when very keen on them, particularly their fundamentalist and/or evangelical versions.

Leigh,

You said:
"When anyone tries to ‘engage in dialogue with Muslims’ – not just here but in the wider world – it’s like getting blood out of a stone. They are brilliant at changing the subject and dodging questions"

This is a 'self inflicted myth'. Myself among few other Australian Muslims have 221 responses on OLO to-date either answering questions, engaging in a dialogue or just coping with abuse, intolerance from fellow posters.
(Check some of the threads by user).

Well it is clear from the overwhelming evidence presented in this thread that the religion of Islam is wrong and harmful and therefore its followers are dangerous and untrustworthy.
So now that this has been established by the insightful posters above, where do we go from here? Surely we need to protect ourselves, our families and our nation from these dangerous beliefs and the people that espouse them. Firstly we should probably ban the practice of the religion and make the beliefs against the law, then i guess we need to form some sort of special division in the police force to seek out and investigate any people who continue to hold those beliefs and/or practice the religion in secret. These people will then need to be interrogated using the latest intelligence extracting methods to get them to confess to their beliefs(crimes). Then we can put them on trial in a special court to judge their guilt and give them a sentence. Punishment can be decided later but i think the traditional stake-burning will suffice...

Dear Mahatma
the 'intolerance' you speak of is HUGEly a characteristic of 'which' community ?

1/ Denmark.. 'moderate' Muslims demanding apologies and retractions of cartoons of mohamed. (When was the last time you saw 1000s of Catholics marching screaming down Martin Place over a 'Rat-zinger' cartoon ?)

2/ UK with people who have finally set themselves free of the spiritual prison of Islam being hounded by the 'moderate' muslim community as 'apostate scum'.

3/ 7 Ambassadors from Islamic countries DEMANDING an apology from the Danish PM and the removal of the cartoons of mohamed.

Please check out the links I provided on the other Irfan thread regarding 'current up to date' Islamic scholarly opinion on 'captive slave girls and the right of a man to have sex with them as his 'possession'

Mahatma.. I truly appreciate your desire to foster good relations with the Islamic community, but this forum is not so much about 'good relations' as it is about shining light on serious matters of cultural and national security, concerning faith that quotes opinion in 2005 which justifies the sexual enslavement of captive girls.

I hope and pray that one day you will try to do some relfection on this, and compare the gospel of Christ with the 'religion' of Mohamed.

The only reason you go on as you do, (bless free speech :) is that you simply know SFA as you put it about Christ, the gospel, the tone and teaching of the whole New Testament.... and even less it seems by your own words about Islam.

So, without intending to be 'mean' I have to suggest you are speaking by and large from ignorance (in the sense of lacking the facts).

F.H. on a 'human level' your interaction is always appreciated, I'm sure you would be a 'good mate' to have, but the faith you subscribe to is to my mind quite wrong. Please don't interpret 'us' or the gospel through your Catholic educational upbringing. Just read the gospel of Luke then the book of Acts.

I'm sick to death of hearing about Muslims and their problems.It is a confused system upon which none can agree on a central theme or philosophy.Really we've had enough of the threatening overtures of what 1.4 billion Muslims can do. They are getting more air space than they deserve.It it all about feeling inadaquate and gaining power through some imaginery being.

Really,grow up,get a life and do something positive like broardening your philosophy instead of blaming the rest of the world for your inadaquacies.The past is over.If you want a role model,look at China,they are going from strength to strength.The British tried to destroy them with opium and they just get on with it and put past conflicts in the history books.

Let's hear about some positive things that the Buddists are doing.

Donnie

I've seen university educated hard left people turn into rednecks after only three months of working with your average aussie mossie. I was once quite a lefty myself.

I've never seen anything like it.

You cannot reason with hate; you can not negotiate with liars; you cannot be nice to those who promote oppression – or make excuses for it. They must be accountable for their own words and actions and those of their fellow Muslims. If they say that Islam is tolerant and peaceful, you must tell them that based upon the facts they are, at best, foolish hypocrites and bigots, if not worse.

“I'm sick to death of hearing about Muslims and their problems.”. Well, get used to it. This is about persecution, pain, suffering and death. The issue are what kind of a country you want to live in and what kind of future you want for your family.

There is no reason to believe that Islam will treat non-Muslims with respect or kindness. They may let you live if you don’t offend them.

Our Muslims friends here have not been honest about their dear leader, and they have not been honest about their relationship with other peoples and other faiths.

Oh yes, read this:

Indonesian Christians Complain Islamic Militants Close Churches, from
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-11-14-voa6.cfm

“Christian groups in Indonesia say their right to worship freely is being hindered by conservative Muslim groups that have forced more than 30 churches to close this year. However, Muslim groups charge that Christians are violating the law by using shops and houses as places of worship.”

Disgusting! Waleed, FH... Any comments on Islamic tolerance? have you no shame?

Kactuz

Is there any danger that anyone, at any stage, is actually going to post something here that is even remotely relevant to the article?

Duck,

So, I’m not a xenophobe. I’m really an offensive bigot. Wrong again. You really must get that dictionary. I do, however, accept that my comments are offensive to you, and I can only suggest that you don’t read them. You don’t even have to participate in this excellent forum if you have trouble with my opinions and those of others whom you often mention.

I did not say that Muslims are inherently dishonest, and permanently incapable of change, as your adjective implies. After all, some people do leave Islam after becoming disaffected with its dogma. Nor did I say that practising Muslims are necessarily dishonest. I didn’t use the simplistic word ‘dishonest’, either. I was talking about taqiyya. You, slyly or unwittingly, imply that I referred to the everyday honesty and dealings of Muslims, which I definitely did not.

Nor did I say that I believed that all Muslims practise taqiyya. They are not required to do so. What I did say was “… and I wonder if we should be taking anything Muslims say at face value?”. That’s a question, my dear Duck, not a statement. It was an opening for someone with the sense and knowledge to discuss it. There were no takers. Instead I got you – all criticism and no ideas.

I am intrigued by you final sentence. You write that you are not very keen on religions because: ‘ by their exclusive nature they alienate everybody else.’ This is a strange remark from a person defending Islam against criticism.

Jasper, I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you, when the religious blanks get going, they lose all sense of reality and waffle on round and round in circles getting more violent as they go. We must remember that those that live within demonic fantasy, can't understand reality.

Waleed has some very good points, but he us religious and therein lies the cause and the problem. After all there is little difference between religions, just the historical time factor. Once one faction overcomes the other, it will push its agenda.

Question, which religion is pushing for god to be placed within our national anthem at the present time. Which religions are pushing for religious considerations to be placed in our laws, education and social structures.

Answer, christianity and islam.

Waleed says, "Bring it on. What is there to be afraid of? Let the truth come out. Let justice prevail." How about some justice for non believers, how long do we have to put up with the constant barrage of propaganda from these increasingly violent Ism's.

Waleed there are many different aspects of society that get raided by the police, for whatever reasons, not just the religious. There is no way you nor your opponents can convince us that once these radicals are removed, both islam and christianity will not continue to push for control of our society.

Fellow Human, don't tell me that you answer questions, you along with your opponents always run away when confronted with fact. Unlike real people who are prepared to be wrong, the religious refuse, resorting to scripture. It must be so frustrating and frightening to be unable to support your delusions against reality, but I enjoy a laugh, pity it is such a serious situation .

Jasper

You must understand that the very sight of a Muslim (or terrorism) article on OLO puts so many OLO posters in a Crusader-Spanish Inquisition timewarp that very little sense can be made.

There is obviously an undercurrent of religious fervour, perhaps associated with Family First, that leads to such an odd results on this Blog.

You may have noticed my own post in this anti-Muslim maelstrom.

"Waleed may be the new breed of Muslim politician who can appeal both to Muslims and the non Muslim majority.

May assimilation for all follow.

Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 12:54:08 AM"

I'm hoping that Waleed is implying that Muslims can place their faith in the secular, judicial process.

My own position is that the less religion in the world (causing perpetual conflict) and the more secular assimilation, the better.

Boaz,

The reaction you stated is largely associated with Middle East/ North African culture where religion becomes their identity. Christians in Egypt riot when anything is published in the news about a priest. Can anyone dare put a cartoon even in Sydney, about the Orthodox Christians Pope Shenouda?

I have seen my faith being ridiculed by people like yourself, Kactuz and few others. Muslims can’t ridicule Christianity or Judaism because we will be hurting our own prophets: Jesus and Moses and their scriptures.

Logically speaking, I can’t understand why Muslims of all people can’t be relaxed about faith matters. Muslims believe in all prophets and their scripture and everyone is judged separately so whoever is ridiculing God or prophets, from a Muslim perspective, can only be hurting themselves.

Kaktuz,

You said : “You cannot reason with hate”

Well said.

Btw, you are ‘preaching to the reverted’ on militant Islam. All Muslims know it is dangerous and have been for a long time. Militant Islam used to blow up schools full of Muslims in Egypt late 80’s and early 90’s, assassinate police officers, hotels, restaurants.

Leigh,

- Taqeyya is an option (not a must) to hide your faith when you feel that your life is in danger simply because of your faith.
- It is mainly a practice invented by Shiite Muslims and is rejected by mainstream Islam.
- Its started sometimes in the 9th-10th century AD when Shiites were persecuted either by Crusaders or even other Muslims.

- “hiding your beliefs out of fear was used by Hungarian Jews during the Nazis, by early Christians during the Byzantine empire.. It was also used by early Christians to avoid persecution of the Roman Catholicism during the 4th century.

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says:
"Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)
Note that Al-Ghazali is one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians of all time.

for more on lying go to
http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/index.html

meredith,

Please when we discuss lying or failure to tell the full truth, include lil johnny in the equation.

The principle danger posed by these laws is much larger in scope than anything that terrorists per se could bring to fruition.

The ACTU is already planning to start an Australia wide campaign of 'National Disobediance'. this will spread quickly, particularly as the new IR laws effectively criminalise virtually all forms of protest.

This IS a very predictable response, and the resultant arrests of union officials (and rank & file member's) will further polarise the issue. The greatest civilizing force, is the line between lawful and unlawful - and the lack of motivation of the average person to cross it. However, if all forms of protest are made illegal per se, ordinary people become criminals and no longer have any society imposed restraints or taboos to stop them acting as they please or are exhorted to do.

First the strikes, then the overreaction by authorities, next the violent protest, then what?.........

However, never fear, any worker who is a member of the ALP will be participating in a political demonstration, which the Fed Parliament may not impose criminal sanction upon (constitutionally protected).

please people wake up, the moslems are the least of our worries.

Meredith,

The title of the site you refer to (ie ‘answering-Islam.org’) speaks for its intent and purpose. I read most contents and I am astonished at the amount of resources and professional work dedicated to mislead the naïve and twist the facts about Islam. Otherwise why are they ignoring modern scholars and quoting a man who lived and died 9 centuries ago?

Abu Hamid AI-Ghazzali (1058-1110), created his own philosophy during the times of crusades and wars and most of his efforts were to create the ‘self interest’ and ‘end justifies the means’ to promote the militant Islam, defence of the land, etc... Parts of his ideology are the very reason why we have Islamist terrorism today because a) He allowed what the Quran forbids and b) He painted a picture that “Islam is in a permanent and opened war whether declared (ie the crusades of his times) or hidden (ie anytime, anywhere)”.

First no man have the authority to allow what the Quran forbids and second, lying and forgery is the 3rd top greatest sin in the Quran after polytheism and being ungrateful to the parents. Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) never told a lie.

Anyway, your statement (copied from the site) that he is the most respected and believed scholar today is simply not correct: he is the most quoted by French philosophers in painting their picture of Islam in the 13th century probably because it serves their purpose.
On the conservative/ strict scholars I would say today‘s most popular can be Dr. Professor Yusuf Qaradawi. On the young moderate side Amr Khalid is popular among Muslim youth. Each have from 40-50 million audience (TV interviews, books, and articles).

For the record, I didn't call Leigh an "offensive bigot". Rather I suggest that the comments that he has posted here are bigoted and offensive - as are the comments posted prolifically by others who wish to demonise Islam and Muslims.

The disingenuousness of Leigh's claim that he was merely asking a question to further discussion can be seen in his first post in response to Waleed's article what he actually submitted as the first post in this thread:

"Do we believe Waleed Aly, or do we not. Is he talking a load of 'old taqiyya' or is he not?" (N.B. the difference between what he actually wrote and his sanitised misquotation of himself).

This is clearly a loaded question that is meant to imply that Waleed Aly, and by implication other moderate Muslims who attempt to explain Islam to non-Muslims, is likely to be engaged in deception.

It is the same kind of disingenuous tactic contained in the old chestnut "Are you still beating your wife?".

While Leigh and those who share his bigoted and offensive ideas might prefer it if more reasonable non-Muslims gave them free reign in this forum to voice their hateful ideas without response, that just isn't going to happen. This is particularly the case in the context of the escalation by some forum members of the ignorance and vitriol contained in their posts.

Finally (for now), while Boaz may claim that "this forum is not so much about 'good relations as it is about shining light on serious matters of cultural and national security", that is merely his very idiosyncratic view. I suspect that those who are responsible for national security would regard his rantings with much the same bemusement as we more rational forum members do.

And what on earth is "cultural security"?

Mahatma,you seem to perceive most Muslims as being moderate.Why do we not see moderate Muslims protesting against the the radical lunatics?If radical Islam is rejected by the moderates,why do we not see at least one organised protest in our country by these moderates?I have seen none.Irfan Yusef is the only one I see as a moderating influence.If there are others let their voices be heard in all forms of our media.

The silence by the moderates can be interpreted in two ways,either the radicals are so powerful that they dare not say anything for fear of their lives[which is a real worry]or the moderates are not really that moderate and are having an each way bet.They will take the religious power option no matter what the consequences.

If this impasse is to be resolved,Muslims have to pin their colours to the mast or continue to suffer alienation and derision.

"And what on earth is "cultural security"?

Indeed ! they can't tell us what their culture is or how it makes them think but want security for this mysterious phantom of their opera? Go figure!

Arjay,

There is a third interpretation:

Muslims regard Islamist terrorism as outside their faith and not within.
If you read some of my postings, their ideologies come from one source (founded by a scholar who died 1110AD) which basically believe all love; tolerance verses in the Quran are not valid or expired!

Their beliefs have nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. The link only exists in some westerners minds

The so-called leaders of 'moderate' Muslims seem to do the same thing all over the world. They condemn an atrocity, saying Islam does not allow that sort of thing. Next they start saying that all Muslims will targetted by local 'rednecks', then they say nothing until the next time. They don't seem to think that the lunatics will commit atrocities agaist other Muslims.

But now Muslims have killed Muslims in Jordan, and the Jordanians are sitting up and taking notice. A reporter opined in an overseas publication yesterday that Jordanians are outraged not so much because of an anti-terrorist mind set, but because Muslims have killed Muslims. Let's hope the same thing doesn't happen here before Muslims in Australia wake up to where their best interests lie.

Duck. I'm not going to waste any more of my posting allocation on you. You think what you will, and so shall I. One man's 'hateful ideas' are another man's truth. Disagree with (and criticise)what I and others say by all means. Your remark about not giving us 'free reign'shows your attitude to free speech. Whatever you think or say I, and I'm sure others who don't hold your ideas, will continue to make our opions plain. It's the media monitors who matter, not you, Duck. Give my best to Grandma and Donald.

Arjay, that was a ridiculous post.

If you haven't heard the howls of condemnation coming from Muslims in response to radicalism and terrorism in recent months, then you're simply not listening.

The suggestion that Muslims parade through the streets is equally stupid. You demonstrate to effect political change. A demonstration would do absolutely nothing to stop terrorism, except confirm to terrorists that most Muslims deserve to be killed too. They have already expressed their contempt for mainstream Muslims. They do not listen to other Muslims because they consider them deviants. A demonstration will only entrench this.

The only purpose a demonstration would serve would be to put on some kind of freak show of self-flagellation.

Incidentally, I don't get why this whole 'Muslims are liars' topic is even relevant. Aside from the clear bigotry of it, the article in question wasn't a statement of facts. It was analysis. You either accept that analysis or you disagree, but the concept of lying is just irrelevant.

But then, given the level of engagement with the article so far, I suspect this point may be beyond those who would rather just beat up on Muslims, even if the topic of discussion is meant to be homemade cookies.

No Jasper,we would join them in a march of solidarity.No freak show,no leftist apologists,just the courage and determination to see this cancer removed.

The Muslim community have isolated themselves intentionally,and it is about time they joined the Australian community.

Jasper - I happily acknowledge your points about this "muslim liars thing" it is complete bigotry and I have found it extremely offensive.

It is true that Waleed's article is an excellent piece of analysis. Muslims were actively engaged in assisting with the arrests, they have also been vocal about their condemnation of terrorism.

However it would appear that no matter what muslims try to do to stem terrorism it will never be enough for some people - these bigots will always find fault. It is like muslims are being asked "how long is a piece of string?"

Fellow Human,

Sorry for the late reply, I have currently lost my net, am at a friends house atm.
No worries you don’t like the Answering Islam site. I’m sure you respect that many people do appreciate it. Here’s another link on islamic dishonesty for anyone interested:
http://www.answeringislam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch16_understanding_dishonesty.htm
You agree just because that quote on lying is “outdated” does not mean its not applying today.
To answer you, modern moderates are unnoticed because they haven’t attempted to stop, islamic terrorism or social bullying by islam to the West. They seem to spend all their time shoving the beauty of islam down our necks when they could be addressing decent prison sentences for the Bali terrorists or the vilification case in Vic, it would have been nice to see the islamic community use their power to respect free speech in my country not squash it. So to believe their sincerity is foolish. The muslim clerics/spokespeople who reside in Australia … yes I think they are lying, so do most Aussies. Kadous touts himself as moderate:
Dr M Waleed Kadous October 17, 2005 Nine’s Sunday program:
“I’m sure that there are some in the community who are involved in terrorism, but it is important not to exaggerate either the threat or the number. I would — actually, can I retract that. Let me just think of a way to phrase that better.
If they do exist — and I’m not sure that they do exist — we only have ASIO’s word to say that.” http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/cover_stories/transcript_1891.asp
To my mind both these comments from Waleed read very differently, which are we to believe HE believes? No big problem or ASIO conspiracy… both are insane anyway.
Your moderate evangelist Amr Khalid seems popular, so cool let’s see some of his anti-terrorist outcomes within Australia, not just lip service on the poetics of islam. I googled ("Amr Khalid" Australia anti terrorism) I get 22 articles of pretty much fluff

cont:

What I’m concerned about is does he,
1 respect Western history, culture and traditions?
2 stress constant demanding we understand, respect and bend to islam is rude here, that it would be good manners to instead understand and support all we aim for here in Australia.
3 remind Islamic law, tradition let alone terrorism can be highly offensive to western values.
Don’t know Amr so open to sources.

Your conservative Yusuf Qaradawi I do know of. Surely your not glad he has an audience of 50000000? He’s a total creep! Banned from Egypt in 1962,barred from entering the US in 1999, barely tolerated in the UK.
i.e. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/08/nyusuf08.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/08/ixnewstop.html

I’m not naive enough to suppose we can stop all things offensive to Australia, but I think islamists need to rethink their approach, by understanding and curtailing to freedom of religion for a start. It can be “troublesome” to say the least to leave islam, many muslims don’t for this reason, for the islamic councils to create an apostasy protection org would be a good beginning.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim and critic of Islam, labelled an apostate by the assasinated film director Theo van Gogh with whom she colloborated in making the film Submission
Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy#Islam
The Muslim/s who helped with the recent terror raids should be able to be commended, as just being vocal is useless from spokespeople of a religion whom is terrifying the westeen world.
The PC assumption-lie that every cultures standards-psychology will be accepted by the Western host is a cruel, deluded and selfish PC hoax for potential citizens and Australians. The slice of opinion here in this forum illustrates this point quiet well.

Meredith,

My posting above was to clarify that Islamist terrorism sources and Islam are different. The terrorist ideology in essence does not believe in the Quran as Muslims do but believes 80% of its teachings re tolerance and people of the book is void, expired or no longer valid. I do not see why Muslims should run around denouncing terrorism because it is your assumption that Muslim and Islamist terrorist share the same faith. Your ignorance cannot be my problem, sorry.

The material written by AH Gazali (who died 1110) and used to promote terrorism, you will find much more sites using the same teachings for anti-Islam propagandists without questioning which I find sickening: same contents are banned as terrorist material as they should, but publishing the same material for propaganda purposes is OK.

Your specific questions were:

1. Respect western culture and tradition: most Muslims countries (taking Egypt the example I lived in) teaches history and world geography and cultures. If you read Dr Mahfouz (Literature Nobel Prize winner 1988) on www.nobel.org it will tell you what Islam hold for west and western culture.
2. I don’t think any Muslims is asking Australians to bend for Islam. All what we need is mutual respect and understanding as equal citizens.
3. Shariah law keep coming up these days for reasons I am unaware of but here is a simple position: as a Muslim, tightening the legal system against crime to achieve security and social justice is good enough. The legal system in Australia is secular and must be kept secular in my view. Let us just be careful no to allow any minority to have their own legal system because we live in a world of precedents.

I have no comments on 'fatwa fame writers' like Rushdie, Manji and others. The fatwa is usually a markting tool to boost their sale. they are all alive and well with 20 y.o. fatwas.

Does anyone understand the mental condition of the 'born here' would be terrorists?
One can see that the young men who are born and live in the Middle East and are immersed in the traditions of those lands, are one with those homelands.
But how do young men who are born in this country grow up so full of hate for Australia and Australians. We did not ask their parents to come here but when they did , they were generally housed, fed and looked after by the Australian population.
So why the loathing for a nation that has only done the right thing?
Why the arrogance ?
And above all, why are these unAustralians permitted to stay in a place of such odium to them.