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The Forum > Article Comments > The fourth 'R' > Comments

The fourth 'R' : Comments

By Chris Abood, published 10/11/2005

Chris Abood argues Australia needs a long-term information and computer technology strategy for our schools.

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As someone who has been in the "ICT" business for some thirty-odd years, it has always fascinated me what people mean when they say or write "computer-literate". Does it mean the ability to write programs? Fix the printer when it jams? Or simply write a letter on a PC, fill in a spreadsheet or access the Internet?

Clearly, the first two examples are nonsense. Programming is a career, like accounting or plumbing or catering, which are learned as a specialist topic at university or trade school. Fixing a misbehaving printer is like emptying the bag on a vacuum cleaner - you have to understand the basic physical moves, but they come from an instruction manual.

The third option can be learned in an hour. Seriously. Try it with an eight year-old.

What the article does illustrate is a profound misunderstanding of what information technology is and does. One of its most fundamental objectives, which it will achieve in the not-too-distant future, is to make itself invisible. To turn itself from being the last word in esoteric (and those who remember the men-in-white-coats approach of the sixties will know what I'm talking about) to being a completely background function, such as electricity.

The capability is available now, to allow us to access and use information technology in the same way as today we turn on a light without having to know how the power station works. We already do this every time we log on and Google - no-one needs to know how which operating system Google uses, or how to log on to a Google server - it just happens.

The very last thing we need is for a school curriculum on the topic. The gap between determining the scope of a course, its definition and its eventual presentation will inevitably cause it to be out of date on day one.

In much the same way as this article, which proposes solving a problem that hasn't existed for years.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 10 November 2005 11:33:19 AM
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I agree with the article, the children could then educate the teacher on the various ways to utilise simple programs, perhaps in return for the teacher providing access to the more traditional three R's.

I am old enough to remember when CSIRO had a large building in Townsville, which was airconditioned (and seriously cold), and contained a large computer, about half the size of the average suburban house, which used punch cards. Very few people then were computer literate to any degree, however most COULD read, write and count.

Today, I suspect that the average computer game console has greater memory and data processing capability than that CSIRO computer. most homes have at least one computer, and the majority of people are computer literate to some extent. However, there are now huge numbers of people that are illiterate, innumerate, or both.

I am only in my 30's, but isn't progress wonderful.
Posted by Aaron, Friday, 11 November 2005 6:09:42 AM
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IT literacy will be very important for our future.

I completely disagree that programming is a narrow skill. Every student leaving high-school should know how to write a simple computer program, spreadsheet formula, database query and/or hypertext document:

FOR I = 1 TO 10; S = S + I; NEXT I

=IF(A1>"!",INDEX(list,A2,3),"-")

select name from contacts where postcode < 3000

select <B>name</B> from <I>contacts</I> where <B>postcode</B> &#60; 3000

An analogy from mathematics. Students have access to a calculator, but they still need to know how to add. It follows that they may have a user-interface but still need to know how that interface, in general, works.
Posted by David Latimer, Friday, 11 November 2005 8:35:58 AM
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I see the example that David Latimer provides as key to this issue.

>>An analogy from mathematics. Students have access to a calculator, but they still need to know how to add. It follows that they may have a user-interface but still need to know how that interface, in general, works.<<

There is absolutely no need to know how to construct a calculator, only how to operate one. Unfortunately, teaching the general public to program can only result in them trying to build their own calculator, which is a total waste of time (someone has already built one, and it works) and can only create frustration.

This has already happened in business, with the waste of literally billions of dollars. Companies have employed battalions of programmers in order to build an almost exact copy of what the company next door is building with their own programming hordes.

The essential focus has to be to make the technology disappear completely, so that no-one is even tempted to write their own system. Buy it, rent it, download it, but don't write a single line of code.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 11 November 2005 5:18:28 PM
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I agree with Pericles' first post. Home PCs and internet access are widespread, my children and their peers have been computer literate from an early age - my son was our in-house PC manager from the age of 10 in 1992, and still knows much more than me although I first used a (room-sized) computer in 1966.

Re calculators, I do think its important to understand and to be able to practice maths without calculators - in this instance, my facility/ability is far better than my kids, all of whom have studied maths to a much higher level than I did. Without this facility, it's difficult to have a "feel" for numbers, to know intuitively when things aren't right, to understand magnitudes and relationships. I recall meetings with some eminent, mainly academic, economists, all with high numerical and modelling skills, where several major errors which were immediately obvious to me had escaped their attention.
Posted by Faustino, Friday, 11 November 2005 8:12:54 PM
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Pericles is right that technology tends to disappear. Most of the younger generation have a 'feel' for the technology that they have grown up with. They don't have or seem to need to have an understanding of how it all works. Advances in software and hardware also facilitate in lessening the need to know.

There is a tendency for those with vested interests in computer technology to empasise its complexity and highlight problems that for most don't exist so that they remain relevant. In reality those in the industry that are helping to make the technology disappear are the ones meeting the market.

Chris's suggestion seems like an attempt to build up an industry around a problem that is fast becoming no existent.

Valerie
Posted by Valerie, Saturday, 12 November 2005 9:06:08 AM
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Something which would be of great benefit, would be more instruction on how bits of software 'inter-relate' to the Web etc.

SOFTWARE/WEB INTER-RELATION
Some understanding of how various things like 'Cold Fusion', PHP Web Databases, and the such like fit in to the Web design scheme of things could help.
You don't need to know how the Database itself is programmed , but knowing how they relate to each other is helpful.
Of course, this becomes almost an info-tech beginners course, but as time goes by, most of us will want to do 'more' with web sites etc, so this is basic in my opinion. Most can be learnt on the net or from it, but guidance early on would be good.

I might be totally behind the 8ball here, not really knowing what is taught at school, so maybe its already done ?

THE FUTILITY OF PROGRAMMING CAREERS
Anyone thinking of going into 'programming' these days needs as much therapy as one who thinks manufacturing automotive parts will be 'on-going'.

OUTSOURCING
I believe there will be a greater trend to people sourcing goods from various parts of the world and offering them on the net, so it doesn't matter so much 'where' we are located. The important thing is knowing how to manage and build up web sites without having to pay megabucks to do it. Even THIS could be done via chat rooms and email with a a good working relationship with some Indian/malaysian/Philippino Web developer....

THE ALTERNATIVE ?
So, maybe the real 'R' we need is not an R but an E for "Entrepreneur"
and an "I" for international trader.

EXAMPLE
I encountered such a trader on a chat room once, where the "person" chatting was in fact an Artificial Intelligence cyber robot ! You can have a complete conversation with one. It referred to a web site where customers could place orders for retail goods, was linked up to a major supply warehouse, all orders were automatically sent to it, and without any input from the trader, deliveries were made, funds received and commissions allocated.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 12 November 2005 10:34:57 AM
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There is a great deal of naivity about what programming is and is not. Programmers do not build computers any more than mathematicians build calculators.

What I said before clearly did not sink in: "We are given calculators, but we still need to know how to ADD (do addition)". The analogy is very apt: And knowing how to add does not mean one knows how to build a calculator.

Programming is not a futile career and for that matter neither is manufacturing. But I do agree with the rest of what David BOAZ said.
Posted by David Latimer, Tuesday, 22 November 2005 12:00:43 PM
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>>What I said before clearly did not sink in<<

Well, Mr Latimer, perhaps that was because you didn't make much sense.

You assert that "IT literacy will be very important for our future" without making any effort to explain why and how the ability to "write a simple computer program, spreadsheet formula, database query and/or hypertext document" might actually help anyone in real life.

I can only assume that you are an academic, to whom teaching is an important function in itself, with the automatic presumption that any form of learning must be equally important.

I have successfully navigated more than thirty years in the IT industry without claiming to be the slightest bit IT Literate in the sense you seem to be promoting. I can write a letter, fill in a spreadsheet and put together a reasonable slide presentation, but that is the result of a few hours exposure, not of a "long-term information and computer technology strategy for our schools."

"Programming is not a futile career" is a statement I totally agree with. I employ some of the brightest and best in the industry, and I have nothing but respect and admiration for their skill and prowess. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument for "IT literacy for all", which is a red herring, and an absolute furphy to boot.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 23 November 2005 9:37:10 AM
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Response to Pericles:

You can "write a letter, fill in a spreadsheet and put together a reasonable slide presentation"

Wow!

Just be thankful that you're closer to the end of your career rather than starting it. Be thankful that you are employing the best, rather than having to produce yourself. I suppose you imagine than high school leavers can purchase the necessary skills, as you say you do.

OK, an example from this morning: I checked 2000 invoices for an potential overcharge using:
- an SQL query to collect the data
- a pivot table to line up the data
- a spreadsheet formula to identify the overcharge

Without decent IT skills, it would have taken 1-2 days or not done at all, but in every respect it was a routine task, nothing special.

You think I am an academic? What the fish? Have you noticed that every office desk has a computer? They're not for typing nice letters back and forth. Even in the trades' workshops there's computers!

Sorry Pericles, I am incredulous!
Posted by David Latimer, Wednesday, 23 November 2005 6:57:17 PM
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>>Sorry Pericles, I am incredulous!<<

Please don't feel that you need to apologise.

Once again, I have to ask why you feel it is important that everyone has the skills that you have, simply in order to correct mistakes made in an accounting system. Wouldn't it be far more sensible to spend your time doing what you are paid to do - clearly you are a bookkeeper rather than an academic - as opposed to checking 2000 invoices for errors?

If your accounting system had been built properly - by professional programmers who took pride in their work - mere users would not be stuck with the need to build their own programs to fix problems.

In fact, by having the skills you do have, you are perpetuating and encouraging a massive waste of resources. Instead of insisting that the system is put right once and for all, you use the skills you have to patch up, make do, and never ever solve the problem's root cause.

The difference is that if we give everybody a little learning - which is all a school course could ever do - they might think, as you obviously do, that they are some form of programmer. And they will spend their time trying to find ways to use their knowledge ('cos it's such a buzz, being able to write SQL statements, isn't it?) rather than let IT professionals build a proper, functional and idiot-proof IT environment for them.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 24 November 2005 9:07:26 AM
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Response to Pericles:

So now I am a bookkeeper! If I were to give another example you'd say I was a community worker, or another example a writer, or another example I'd be a statistician!

What on earth makes you think there is anything wrong with our accounting system? Or that looking for a potential overcharge is not doing one's job or part of finding root causes? Writing SQL queries is not a buzz. It's a routine task, which is exactly what I wrote.

Once you make something "idiot-proof" along comes a more advanced idiot.
Posted by David Latimer, Thursday, 24 November 2005 9:32:40 AM
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I should have done my homework. It appears you are "a 35 year old computer consultant working on Energy Management Systems".

Which explains why you understand SQL statements, but not why you insist that the rest of the world should understand them too.

The question at issue here is not that programming is a useful skill, but whether taxpayers should fund a project to teach everyone to program.

Chris Abood is promoting the view that the ACS project - itself a masterpiece of vagueness and waffle - is somehow going to benefit Australia. The ACS is predominantly an academic body with only a passing acquaintance with business life, so it is understandable that their arguments are also academic, as opposed to useful.

It is equally understandable, of course, that they should promote stuff that increases the demand for lecturers.

I assumed, when you approached the topic from a similarly other-worldly manner, that you belong in their company. And when you go on to tell me you spend your time tracking down overcharges in a billing system, that you perhaps make a living from bookkeeping.

But instead, you are a programmer.

As such, you probably haven't noticed that the average ten year-old has more "IT literacy" than the average thirtyfive year-old. Investing in a programme to train teachers to help the average ten-year-old become "IT literate" is an utter and complete waste of time, energy and money.

The ACS proposal is no more than a self-serving attempt to justify its existence to the political system. In common with its 2004 attempt to put lipstick on the same pig - by raising the prospect of wholesale offshoring of Aussie jobs - it lacks a grasp on reality. Jobs are lost overseas to highly qualified competition, not to school-leavers with a grasp of Basic.

Meanwhile I have precisely the level of IT literacy that I need to perform my job, thank you. When I feel the need to check through the company's invoices, I am fortunate to have a system that performs this task without the need for me to write a program.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 24 November 2005 2:15:03 PM
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When my son got his first computer he was five and had to come to grips with MS DOS, which over the following few years he became quite knowledgeable about without any help other than a few books.

In comparison my youngest daughter probably has no idea about MS DOS but she is able to operate her computer just fine. As her interests grow she takes on what she needs to know likewise from books.

For myself I contracted a computer graphics designer to do some work for me only to be disappointed with the results and rather emptied of pocket. So without any computer graphics skills I initially purchased software that did a lot of the work for me. As I wanted to gain more control I purchased other software and with the help of books with tutorial CD’s and time spent experimenting have become quite proficient with the industry popular computer graphics software. I now sell those skills on the side and for a lot less than the computer graphics designer I contracted. One thing I learnt was that the hours I was charged for weren’t worked.

What I like about kids on computers is that they aren’t afraid. For them it isn’t a mystery but rather an adventure. Take away the mystery and you take away a lot of the relevance that so many older people in the computer industry have relied on for income. My advice is get use to it. If you’re are at the top of your game and meeting the market then you’ll do well. If not, then you might need to get in touch with the real world. Stop looking to frighten parents into thinking that their kids are going to be left behind if they don’t learn to programme at school.
Posted by Valerie, Thursday, 24 November 2005 4:15:33 PM
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Very true Valerie. I am in my early twenties, and have used computers all my life. I have no need of programming skills, I am an end-user, and considered quite proficient with the 'finer points' of Word and Powerpoint, which is all I need. Kids don't need separate IT classes- they use computers in almost everything. My mother is a primary school teacher, and her classes use computers every day.

Also, people CAN convert their industry skills into teaching if they wish. To teach High School only requires a one-year bachelor of education, and I have recently learnt, that in Victoria at least, that a one year 'conversion' course can be taken to become a primary school teacher. That is hardly a big committment.

That said, the most useful thing I learnt at high school, in the uber-boring IT classes (where, as a general rule, the kids were streets ahead of the teacher in terms of comfort with the technology), was the old-fashioned skill of touch-typing. So long as this is being taught to primary/early high school kids, then their natural curiosity, and comfort with the idea of technology will ensure that they will not struggle in the average workplace at all.
Posted by Laurie, Thursday, 24 November 2005 4:27:14 PM
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Laurie

My younger kids hated touch typing class but then I told them they would never be considered uber-micro if they didn't get stuck in so they knuckled down (so to speak).
Posted by Valerie, Thursday, 24 November 2005 4:46:15 PM
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heh, it was boring. But proved very useful when it came to doing uni essays at the last minute!
Posted by Laurie, Friday, 25 November 2005 8:02:53 AM
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Response to the quaint ideas of Pericles:

It appears to me that your entire approach to this topic is to pigeonhole and categorise. You describe "academics" as those having automatic presumptions and with useless ideas. Users are "mere users". Software would be perfect if only all programmers had "pride in their work". The ACS is "self-serving", because it has a view you question. The halmarks of somone with prejudiced views - I hope I am wrong about that.

The PC revolution is 25 years old (give or take.) The idea that 10 year olds are better with computers than 35 year olds is a myth. And even if you doubt that, those 10 year olds will eventually become 35 year olds. Why would a person born in 1995 have better computer skills than someone born in 2005?

People do need to understand something of how their society and economy operates, and electronic processing/information technology has taken and will take further a large part of that operation. If education is to mean something, then it should address this in an effective way.

If we agree that students should continue to be given a classes in adding and subtracting numbers (as opposed to being taught how to use a calculator), the same princple applies that students should be taught how information processing instructions, rather than taught how to use office software.
Posted by David Latimer, Friday, 25 November 2005 9:02:09 AM
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Come now Mr Latimer, the longer we live, the more experience we bring to bear on issues. The judgements we make tend to be quicker and more incisive as a result. Easily mistaken for prejudice, unfortunately.

Academics, like any other grouping, will tend to look after their own kind - it's a natural, human instinct, much like motherhood. Show me an altruistic academic, and I'll happily recant, but in my experience since they live and work isolated from the relative hurly burly of commerce, they have little to add to debates on business issues. This does not, of course, prevent them from doing so.

Programmers who take pride in their work tend, in my experience, to write better (fewer bugs) and more useful (closer to user requirements) software than those who don't. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

The ACS isn't self-serving because it does things I disagree with, but because that is its charter. You would be as likely to see an ACS press release announcing that IT education should be reduced as to see those lipsticked pigs flying.

>>The idea that 10 year olds are better with computers than 35 year olds is a myth.<<

My only observation would be that you cannot know many ten-year-olds.

>>People do need to understand something of how their society and economy operates, and electronic processing/information technology has taken and will take further a large part of that operation.<<

There's the problem. You take the industry far too seriously. The sooner IT becomes an on-demand capability, like electricity, with a grid delivery system and a focus on appliances rather than the unbelievably primitive concept of the PC, the more useful it will become. But at the same time, anyone who isn't directly involved in the delivery capability itself will need to know absolutely nothing about the process. That will remain the province of the well-qualified, fully-trained professional.

Well-meaning amateurs and geeks will for a while insist that their home-made systems are superior to the grid and its services, but will eventually achieve the status that radio hams hold today. Quaint.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 25 November 2005 3:50:54 PM
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Response to Pericles:

Self-serving means that actions are taken for the interests of a few against the rest. In contrast, ACS has a "commitment to the wider community to ensure the beneficial use of ICT". It members must "place the interests of the community above those of personal or sectional interests." (http://www.acs.org.au/)

It is a bad sign that one would presume facts to perpetuate a slur against an organisation; in this case the words "...that is its charter". I hope that this is merely a case of ill-considered comment.

And because you are keen to make assumptions, no I am not a member or associate of the ACS.

Getting back to the main topic, there is an inherent contradiction in your writing. If you think that ten year olds are better than 35 year olds, then why is it that computing is in your view an "industry"? A professional industry where children have matching skills – this does not make sense.

For every subject taught in high school (English, Mathematics, Science, Commerce, Art, Agriculture...) there is a professional equivalent: (writers, mathematicians, scientists, business people, artists, farmers...)

If we take your argument seriously then one could also say, "Professional writers who take pride in their work make fewer grammatical mistakes and use a level of English appropriate for their audience" OR "The sooner mathematics becomes an on-demand capability the more useful it will become." OR "Well-meaning amateur artists will insist that their painting and sketching are superior to photographs but they are a quaint minority"

I have explained that in this age of information, programmatic use of IT has become a general skill not a specialised one (I use programmatic in it's broader sense.) Your counter argument, that IT is a specialised skill because professional programmers are specialists (or that amateur programmers are quaint !?!) is both flawed and misrepresents the how people are utilising IT in the real but imperfect world.

I am happy to concede that our divergent views are due to differing views of what the future shall hold.
Posted by David Latimer, Sunday, 27 November 2005 2:06:57 PM
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Pericles.

"I employ some of the brightest and best etc"

Sure.. but how long before 'shareholder value' and 'pressure for cost reductions' or that other bogeyman 'Market forces' from your competitors and all the other buzz words force you to shift your programming momentum to Bangalore or Cyber Jaya ?

I'm not suggesting you will do it, or even will need to, so much depends on your industry and how "IT" relates to it and how big a part of your company it is. But given the trend in the large corporations, and even government, I would not be a programmer for quids now unless I was an extremely innovative genius who could quickly translate a bright idea into a very saleable and protectable product and get it to market world wide. Or.. I had a close 'blood and cultural' connection to certain segements of the community who like to trade in shares a lot... (don't know if u read about that-Melbourne and Sausage Software/Visard/Solution6 story)

On another thread I saw that IT experts now have to accept $65k whereas they previously could command $100k

David L
my comments were meant to stimulate thinking rather than be grandiose statements of economic finality :)

Pericles,
your abence from some of the more controversial threads is noted. Come on, u always have things to say.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 27 November 2005 2:26:36 PM
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DL, my point is not that the ACS is doing anything dishonest or devious, instead merely performing its legitimate function. To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis, "they would say that, wouldn't they?"

Your attempts to analogize my position are also a little far fetched, given that we have produced in Australia some outstanding programmers "merely" by teaching them high school mathematics, and allowing them to expand this into a computing degree at university. Some schools also teach Latin, German, History, Geography, Classical Greek, French, Italian and Chinese, to which no profession (bar teaching) is directly attached. Plenty are indirectly related of course, in the same way that mathematics is an ideal lead-in to a university course in computing.

So once again, what is the imperative for them them to be differently armed or skilled before they choose this step?

And make no mistake, the general public - largely uneducated in "IT", but increasingly familiar with the web browser - is becoming very adept at "utilising IT in the real but imperfect world."

B-D, the answer to your question is quite long and involved, and is to do with the way in which companies will in future be interrelating with the "grid" and the services it provides. But in general terms, outsourcing core business functions is a fad that will soon have run its course anyway, and the need to grow and nurture in-house programming and systems skills will actually start to increase in a few years. But the realities of the market, and the more business/less (overtly) technical focus of the programmer's function will never again turn it into a substantial six-figure job, I'm afraid. But that's true of so many areas, isn't it?

What is needed more than anything is a de-mystification of IT, so that folk can relate to it in the same way they do accountants. We know roughly what they do, we know they had to get a degree to do it, and that they were probably pretty good at maths at high school. More than that, we don't need to know.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 28 November 2005 12:53:44 PM
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