The repeated use of the words 'survey' and 'statistics' used in Percy's reply do not add any weight to his argument unless he names his surveys. If you are selective in the choice of which surveys and statistics you use to reach your conclusions it renders those conclusions suspect or meaningless. The fact that some of the statements he makes are true has little relevance to his conclusions unless we know that the research was conducted in a scientific manner taking into account all the variables that could affect the research outcomes.

Regards

Jo

It is not only via the silver screen that Kinsey and his work is being examined. For more, read the novelist T. Coraghessan Boyle's "The Inner Circle" (pub. 2004) and, for an exploration of the 60's sexual revolution, read the same author's "Drop City" (2003).

As art (and T.C. Boyle is GOOD) tends to reflect/critique the times in which it is produced, I am wondering why 'Kinsey' as a 'topic' has emerged at this point in time.

Any comments, anyone?

Jo you're right. People need references so that they know where to check out what others claim. So here's a page and a bit of quotes with 2 and a bit pages of references. The evidence that traditional marriage is best, and that sex is best and safest in marriage is just so overwhelming that I wonder why people don't or won't know about it.

I suspect that it is 'vincible' (sic – invincible without the 'in' or vincible) ignorance (Aldous Huxley) – ignorance where the ignorant choose to be ignorant. Well we can all choose whether to ignore the evidence or not. Incidentally, Huxley's quote in context (from memory) also included something about wanting the church to stop interfering with their sexual freedom. Strangely appropriate here.

There's so much stuff out there I hardly know where to start. So I've taken the easy way out and cut down and plagiarized some electronic quotes I have – its only got 40 something references from just one article but I'm not going to type in 120+ references from another hard-copy article I have.

We need to overcome the gross willful ignorance/censorship of the media and let people make up their own minds. Our politically correct media pushes its own agenda so that it won't let people know the truth. I'll stick to little t truth here while I stick to the Truth. The small t truth is that traditional marriage is demonstrably significantly better (whether considering physical or mental health, suicide, murder, wealth, even car accidents, etc) compared with defacto or divorce-remarriage or same sex arrangements (in that order).

Oh dear I media bashed without a reference! Read Aussie journo Cameron Horn on Press v Pulpit or Science v Truth and educate yourself about: our "gay bay cay"; intimidation; censorship and abuse of public trust in media and academia. But back to marriage as the antidote to many ills and to Kinsey's poison.

The studies indicate that marriage has been clearly ahead of all other arrangements for CENTURIES - whenever records are available.

A genealogical study of ruling-class men and women married between 1500 and 1899 in Europe shows that single persons suffered higher death rates than ever-married. A 1912 study of France, Prussia and Sweden for the period 1886-1895 reveals that the death rates were highest for widowed and divorced persons, next highest for single persons, and lowest for married persons. A study of Italy from 1881-1961 shows that single Italian men and women have consistently experienced excess mortality over their married counterparts. ( all cited in Kisker and Goldman)

Just a few modern quotes before a slab of references that hopefully cover everything.

“no social variable is more consistently or powerfully related with the distribution of psychopathology than marital status”. (Horwitz, et. al.)

A health survey of 20,000+ white American women, 18 to 55: - marital status has more effect on women’s health than age, education or household income. Unmarried mothers fare worst of all: (Anson).

A survey of 47,240 American households (122,000+ people: “married persons had fewer health problems than unmarried persons.” (Schoenborn in Christenson, p 68)

Dr. Robert Coombs, Professor of Biobehavioral Sciences at UCLA, reviewed more than 130 STUDIES (not people but studies) about marital status and personal well-being and found that married people “live longer and generally are more emotionally and physically healthy than the unmarried”. “Among the chronic problem drinkers…the separated and divorced account for 70 percent, and the married for 15 percent”.

“one of the most consistent observations in health research is that married [people] enjoy better health than those of other marital statuses.” (Riessman and Gerstel)

A National Health Survey of 19,000 Australians found that separated, divorced and widowed people think they are in poorer health than their married and de facto contemporaries. (cited in Sutherland)

In Australia cancer, diabetes and heart disease are all about 40 per cent higher among previously married men and women. (Dow)

All causes of death are “consistently higher for divorced, single, and widowed individuals of both sexes and all races. Some of the increased death rates in unmarried individuals are astounding, rising as high as ten times the rates for married individuals.” (p.38) This includes such diverse causes of death as tuberculosis, stroke, motor vehicle accidents, pneumonia, suicide and cancer. (Lynch p. 41)

Hello! The trends are CONSISTENT - its staring us in the face so why are we shortchanging people by not telling them the good news (I'll stick to small g good and small n news) that marriage is way ahead capital B BEST.

I haven't got time (I enjoy the real world) to select quotes to cover everything. But the following reference will let you check all the quotes above and much much more.

References

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Arndt, Bettina, “Silent witness to male suicide,” The Sydney Morning Herald, 9 December 1999.
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Australian Bureau of Statistics, Suicides, Australia, 1921-1998. March 2000.
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Bernard, Jessie, The Future of Marriage. New York: World Publishing Company, 1972.
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Burnley, I.H., “Socioeconomic and Spatial Differentials in Mortality and Means of Committing Suicide in New South Wales, Australia, 1985-91,” Social Science and Medicine 41, 1995, pp.687-698.
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Carter, H., and P. C. Glick, Marriage and Divorce: A Social and Economic Study. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1976.
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Coombs, Robert, “Marital Status and Personal Well-being: A Literature Review,” Family Relations, 1991, vol. 40, pp 97-102.
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de Krester, Leela, “Happily married,” The Herald Sun, 10 July 2002, p. 15.
DeMaris, Alfred and Vaninadha Rao, “Premarital Cohabitation and Subsequent Marital Stability in the United States: A Reassessment.” Journal of Marriage and the Family 54, February 1992.
Doughty, Steve, “Married parents, a child’s best start in life,” UK Mail, 27 October 1997, p. 19.
Dow, Steve, “Couples live better, longer: study,” The Age, December 22, 1994.
Durkheim, Emile, Suicide. New York: The Free Press, 1966.
Eastman, Moira, “Myths of Marriage and Family,” in David Popenoe, et. al. eds., Promises To Keep. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 1996.
Fisher, Sally, “Crime risk for single parents,” Herald Sun, April 30, 1994.
Gilder, George, Men and Marriage. Gretna, Louisiana: Pelican Publishing, 1986.
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Glenn, Norval, “The Contribution of Marriage to the Psychological Well-Being of Males and Females.” Journal of Marriage and the Family vol. 37, no. 3, August 1975.
Glenn, Norval, “Values, Attitudes, and the State of Marriage,” in David Popenoe, et. al. eds., Promises to Keep. Lanham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 1996.
Gordon, Michael and Susan Creighton, “Natal and Non-natal Fathers as Sexual Abusers in the United Kingdom: A Comparative Analysis,” Journal of Marriage and the Family, vol. 50, no. 1, March 1988.
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Gray, Darren, “Divorced men head suicide list,” The Age, 19 April 2001, p. 6.
Hall, David and John Zhao, “Cohabitation and divorce in Canada: Testing the Selectivity Hypothesis,” Journal of Marriage and Family 57, 1995, pp. 421-427.
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Heath, Sally, “Nuptial lure for children of de factos,” The Age, 30 November 1996.
Hemstrom, Orjan, “Is Marriage Dissolution Linked to Differences in Mortality Risks for Men and Women?,” Journal of Marriage and Family 58, (May 1996), pp. 366-378.
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VERY SPECIAL FOR GRACE PETTIGREW.....
Well Grace... having read some of my 'colorful' assaults on some of your postings here, did u ever expect to see me AGREEING with you about anything ? I have to support you on one matter, the accuracy of Bills statements about the Kinsey report and 'using' of children.

The way Bill wrote this is strongly suggestive of Kinsey and associates actually 'USING' children .. perhaps he is including some of the interviewed people in the category of 'associate' in the academic sense?? even so, the way he put it together is intended to suggest that Kinsey did 'perform experiments' and from what u supplied in terms of sources I can't see that such a statement is justified.

I feel sorry for you about all the TIME u must have spent putting all those replies together.. really, if u want to show a problem, no need to give us the oft quoted 'Theory of everything' approach... just one example is probably enough.

Anyway, I can see a lot of material in what u provided that I can agree with, and some I dont feel so zealous for. I shudder when the Christian camp ever arrives at the level of "Point weak, shout louder or sue harder". I feel we (Christians) have an abundance of resources which are all valid, that we dont have to resort to shabby politics to 'save the world'.

I've written/emailed to Bill on this matter, and informed him that I am a bit put off by that article in terms of his credibility. I'll update you when/if I receive a response.

Now.. there are other issues of great concern in all that which u provided. It seems, that you are supportive of sexual expression in all its social manifestations. Does the category 'valid sexual expression' include old men and young boys ?? (NAMBLA) If not, WHY not ? based on the findings of Kinsey and how those findings were used by the adult industry etc.... its a 'reasonable' outcome no ?

This is why I truly believe we need a source of revealed truth which limits our behavior and gives us certainty on all kinds of moral issues.

Would u mind addressing this specific question in your reply if u read it this far ?
Regards
BOAZ

ANTI GREEN......
I read with mild amusement your 'neo academic' posting :) I know u were not trying to be funny, but everytime I find this kind of thing dished up.. "harm minimization".. umm.. harm to who ? If we were socialized by the Sawi tribes people of Irian Jaya, it would be our belief that to lure an enemy into a false sense of security and then betray, behead him, slice, dice and eat him is the highest of virtues.
Why is that less applicable than your suggestion ? If you were a Kelabit tribes person of Borneo and you had twins, you would fill their mouths with salt, place the babes in large clay jars under the house, and allow them to die slowly to 'minimize' the harm to the community due to the 'twins' being a bad omen from the 'spirits'
Do u mean to insult the tribes people by suggesting that their world view is 'savage'.. or.. 'primitive'... ?

You are speaking from the 'privileged and peaceful' year of 2005, where we have been insulated from the factors which PRODUCED this environment, such as a couple of world wars, and a few side salads of Korea, Vietnam, and u could go back the other way, particularly to the Battle of Tours, which, if Charles the Hammer had not won, you would be speaking Arabic now, and the idea you are presenting would not even arise, because you would be under the 'guidance' of Allah for every aspect of your life, and 'harm minimization' as u put it is not a very popular doctrine in the foundation documents of that faith.

So, while what u said seems to make social sense, it also fails to address the issue of 'why am I here' etc.
King Solomon once wrote
"Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end. ~ Ecclesiastes 3:9-11
The point is, most people.. DO have a God conciousness, an awareness of the eternal, spiritual and if u develop a social system which fails to address this, you will end up with meaningless Orwellian zombies. Having said that, I nail my colors at the top of the mast, and suggest we would all benefit eternally from a living relationship of repentance and forgiveness with and through Jesus Christ.
BOAZ

To Boaz_David.

Thank you for your interesting observations. I cannot comment on either the Sawi or Kelabit tribes, but from your brief remarks they would seem to be much deserving of criticism.

One of the arguments is that free speech allows me, if I so wish to comment on primitive practices and primitive people. You are quite right however about the problem of living in an Islamic culture. I doubt if I would have the courage to face the death penalty for the sin of apostasy. This does not mean that living in WA I should not be able to comment on any aspect of Islam or for that matter any other religion.

After all priests of all varieties are in general not shy of trying to impose their moral values on secular society. Further they are reasonably skilled in keeping errant members of their flock in order.

Most people you say have a God consciousness, an awareness of eternal, spiritual etc etc. I have no idea what any of this means, except to suggest it is from an ancient family of Memes* going back to stone age times. But then you seem to have an equal difficulty in understanding the public health concept of “harm minimization.”

* A term introduced by Richard Dawkins. Defined in the Oxford Dictionary as “a self-replicating element of culture passed on by imitation, [ 2003; R. Dawkins in A DEVILS CHAPLAIN, The Orion Publishing Group].