Yuyutsu,

<<the fact that you complain about suffering means that you do not yet know God>>

False again. I have mentioned sufferings but not complained about them. I've told you God's purpose in my trials according to James 1:2-4, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jas+1%3A2-4&version=NIVUK

<<living in the constant joy of God, you no longer interpret it as "suffering">>

I understand it as pain and trials that are real and not an illusion.

<<Knowing God is a long-term project, it takes lifetimes>>

I agree that it’s a lifelong project, but you and I only have one life: "just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment" (Hebrews 9:27).

<<Since it is nearly impossible to worship God who has no attributes>>

To the contrary, God has many supernatural attributes, including: Independence (aseity), unchangeable in being, infinite, omnipresence, unity, knowable, spirituality, invisibility, omniscience, wisdom, truthfulness, goodness, love, holiness, righteousness/justice, jealousy, wrath, will, omnipotence, sovereignty, perfection, blessedness and beauty (all supported by Scripture).

Dear OzSpen,

«I have mentioned sufferings but not complained about them.»

Yes, you know the theory (as per James 1:2-4), but do you actually live it? Could you honestly say that you have no wish, weakness or preference whatsoever to have this pain and [what you experience as] suffering stop/gone?

«I understand it as pain and trials that are real and not an illusion.»

Pain is an essential ingredient of the world and of existence, but its sting is only relative to the realness of the world. Knowing God, you realise the illusion that the world is, that the only reality and truth whatsoever, is God.

«but you and I only have one life: "just as it is appointed for people to die once»

People die only once, but you are not a [singular] people - you only temporarily assume and identify with a mortal human body, that is not you!

«To the contrary, God has many supernatural attributes»

And so it is useful and practical for us to believe as a way of endearment and showing our love to God. Hindus too believe so while suspending the theological understanding that it is impossible for the human mind to conceive of God and that any attribute (natural or supernatural, including existence itself), positive as it may seem, would have placed an unacceptable/ridiculous shackle of limitation on God.

In a way, you could say that the attributes you listed are the reflection of God upon this world, a way to feel God's presence so long as we hold this world to be true, but then we ultimately need to go beyond and experience God directly, where no words can describe.

.

Dear OzSpen,

.

You wrote :

« I can agree with you that many believe the Scriptures because of divine inspiration and many consider the original documents inerrant »
.

As you may know, the notion of original documents or “original text” of the New Testament, poses another problem. See : “The Multivalence of the Term “Original Text” in New Testament Textual Criticism” by Eldon Jay Epp :

http://uk.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/33598_Foster.pdf
.

Commenting on my statement “my mind remains open”, you write :

« How can that be since you self-identify as a fence-sitter? »

I don’t. You do.

I feel in perfect symbiosis with the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy’s definition of “scientific objectivity” :

« Scientific objectivity is a characteristic of scientific claims, methods and results. It expresses the idea that the claims, methods and results of science are not, or should not be influenced by particular perspectives, value commitments, community bias or personal interests, to name a few relevant factors. Objectivity is often considered as an ideal for scientific inquiry, as a good reason for valuing scientific knowledge, and as the basis of the authority of science in society »

I see myself in a similar state of mind as that of primeval man before he invented the concept of the supernatural, god and religion. I consider myself simply as “an ordinary person”. That is the only label I am prepared to accept. How others judge me is beyond my control.

Might I add that for a scientist, nothing is definitive. All that we know, or think that we know, is simply the “best explanation” that we can agree upon at any particular time until a “better explanation” comes to light.

Call this “sitting on the fence” if you like. I do not. I am personally convinced that there is no god – until evidence to the contrary comes to light.

If, as you say you believe, Jesus, resurrected with a physical body about 2,000 years ago, the probability that he is still alive and well is so infinitesimal that it may be considered non-existent.

.

(Continued …)

.

.

(Continued …)

.

Mathematically, it is a “zero probability” but not an “impossibility”. “Zero probability” applies within the box of possibilities. “Impossibility” applies to everything outside the box of possibilities (e.g., if the dice are loaded, there may be “zero probability” of landing two sixes, but it is “impossible” to land a six and a seven as there are no sevens on the dice).

Even though there is “zero probability” of a god, it is not “impossible”. That is what I mean when I say my mind remains open.

I think that also replies to your question : “What makes you so sure there will be no major new revelations to add to Scripture? Why is <<the die cast>>?”.
.

You also observed : “To name 2,000 years, you are only thinking of the NT. The OT is much older than that”.

That’s correct, OzSpen. The Old Testament was written over an extremely long period of several centuries, the oldest being the books of the various prophets – Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve "minor prophets" which were written between the 8th and 6th centuries BC, with the exceptions of Jonah and Daniel, which were written much later.

That simply adds grist to my mill. I did not wish to go back that far as I considered there was nothing in the Old Testament to prove there was a god, and our discussion was centred on the New Testament claim of the resurrection of Jesus of Nazerath which I understood you considered to be a “divine revelation” – or, at least, somehow related to your concept of God.

However, if you wish to consider that the purported resurrection of Jesus did not occur at all and/or that it was not a divine revelation, then the probability of a god is even more infinitesimal – even much more closer to “zero probability” – though still not “impossible”.
.

Here are the references of the anthropological books I mentioned previously :

“Ancient Society” by Lewis Henry Morgan

“Primitive Culture” (Volumes 1&2) by Edward Burnett Taylor

.

Banjo,

I want to tune only one of your points:

<<As you may know, the notion of original documents or “original text” of the New Testament, poses another problem. See : “The Multivalence of the Term “Original Text” in New Testament Textual Criticism” by Eldon Jay Epp>>

No problem if the original documents are not available. Will you discount Homer’s epic poetry of the Odyssey because the nearest document we have access to consists of 13 verses dated to Roman times.

The earliest Homer MSS is 300BC when it was written 400 years earlier. We don’t have originals but would you throw out the Odyssey because of this? http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/oldest-greek-fragment-homer-discovered-clay-tablet-180969602/

The same applies with the Bible. We don’t need the original documents to know the approximate content of the originals. We have it in: (1) Existing biblical documents, close in time to originals, (2) writings of early church fathers, and (3) the Jewish Tanakh.

Dr Laird Harris’s explanation helpfully explains the need to have authoritative original documents behind the copies, using the example of a pencil:

“With a tape … we measure it as 6 1/2 inches. A more carefully made office ruler indicates 6 9/16 inches. Checking with an engineer’s scale, we find it to be slightly more than 6.58 inches. Careful measurement with a steel scale under laboratory conditions reveals it to be 6.577 inches. Not satisfied still, we send the pencil to Washington, where master gauges indicate a length of 6.5774 inches. The master gauges themselves are checked against the standard United States yard marked on platinum bar preserved in Washington. Suppose … a clever criminal had run off with the platinum bar and melted it down for the precious metal.… This once happened to Britain’s standard yard! What difference would this make to us? Very little. None of us has ever seen the platinum bar. Many of us perhaps never realized it existed. Yet we blithely use tape measures, rulers, scales, and similar measuring devices. These approximate measures derive their value from their being dependent on more accurate gauges” (Harris, Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible, 1969:88-89).

Yuyutsu,

<<Could you honestly say that you have no wish, weakness or preference whatsoever to have this pain and [what you experience as] suffering stop/gone?>>

With that question you imposed your worldview on me. I pray for God's will in my sufferings: healing or God’s higher purpose: 'Here is what we can be sure of when we come to God in prayer. If we ask anything in keeping with what he wants, he hears us. If we know that God hears what we ask for, we know that we have it' (1 John 5:14-15).

<<Pain is an essential ingredient of the world and of existence, but its sting is only relative to the realness of the world. Knowing God, you realise the illusion that the world is, that the only reality and truth whatsoever, is God.>>

Not so! Pain is real and so it the world of the heavens and the earth. To claim the world is an illusion and God's truth is the only reality belongs to one feet planted in the air.

<<People die only once, but you are not a [singular] people - you only temporarily assume and identify with a mortal human body, that is not you!>>

When I (singular) breathe my last breath, my mortal body will go to the grave or the crematorium to become dust. My soul goes to be with Jesus: 'For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain' (Phil 1:21).

<<In a way, you could say that the attributes you listed are the reflection of God upon this world, a way to feel God's presence so long as we hold this world to be true...>>

You have turned my words into what you want them to mean and they are false. God's attributes relate to his character. They are: (a) The incommunicable attributes of God, e.g. his eternity, self-existence, etc. and (b) communicable attributes, e.g. spirituality, goodness, love, etc.