Joe,

Now you just sound like you’re trying to obfuscate. Some examples of cultural dispossession are the colonisation of Australia and North America. The evidence is the fact that the Indigenous peoples of these places have largely lost their culture and way of life.

Other than that, I’m not sure what you’re asking. Are you wanting examples and evidence of white people deliberately stripping indigenous peoples of their culture and way of life in a cold and calculated way? Because we both know that would be difficult to prove.

Whatever the reasons are for why Europeans did what they did during the colonisation of Australia, racism certainly played a big role. Why else, for example, would there be no known cases of full-blood aborigines being taken away to "save them from neglect"?

But I’m more interested in the pre-settlement population figures because there seems to be racist motives for clinging to the lower figures. I haven’t studied Indigenous history thoroughly enough to tackle what appears to me, at this point in time, to just be another form of denialism in the stolen generation.

<<Why even assume that [that others would portray Indigenous Australians as hopeless]?>>

Okay, maybe not “hopeless” (note, however, that LEGO didn't protest). But the lower figure certainly has been used to suggest that Indigenous Australians are all much better off with white people (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=17978#319488).

Oh sorry, Joe. Unless there was a typo there, it appears you were actually asking if I would like some examples and evidence of why cultural dispossession is too much of a slippery concept to apply to what happened to Indigenous Australians. If you’ve got some, then yeah, great.

Speaking of which, though, I just thought of an example of deliberate attempts from white Australians to culturally dispossess Indigenous Australians. The exemption certificates - which were issued on the condition that those who were granted a certificate abandon all association with their Indigenous community.

Hi Aj,

Where to start ? Here's as good as any:

" .... But I’m more interested in the pre-settlement population figures because there seems to be racist motives for clinging to the lower figures. I haven’t studied Indigenous history thoroughly enough to tackle what appears to me, at this point in time, to just be another form of denialism in the stolen generation."

I guess we'll all have to wait until you have.

In the meantime, you mention exemption certificates: "The exemption certificates - which were issued on the condition that those who were granted a certificate abandon all association with their Indigenous community."

No, not at all: how could any authorities have engineered such 'abandonment' ? My wife's family left the 'mission' in about 1953, to live in a small town. I've always presumed that the parents were given exemption certificates, but maybe they just left, set up in the town, and carried on with life. Most certainly however, from the countless stories my wife told me, that many, many people, relations mainly, passing through and staying with them, had no trouble unless they played up - but I don't recall her ever talking about some copper knocking on the door about any trouble.

And there were enough stories about pretty outrageous behaviour that, on balance, would have earned at least a visit - for example, one uncle and his girlfriend on the grog, brawling and stripping each other naked, for the entire school bus to witness, much to my wife's shame. But still no coppers.

Exemption certificates meant that, once they were issued, people couldn't go back and live on the 'mission, on rations. But strangely, they could still get benefits from the 'Department'. The Department bloke still came down to visit, they used to set their dog on him. I suppose he was used to that. Halcyon days !

My wife's family was fairly pale. Ten kids, and not one of them ever taken away. Not much 'stolen generation' there.

Joe

"Cultural dispossession" AJ? I am not sure I understand what you mean by that? I suppose us whites are guilty of telling aboriginal men that bashing aboriginal women to death is naughty, and that having old men with harems full of little girls is naughty too. Ferking the little boys up the bum as a way of initiating them into the tribe was another thing we frowned upon. Although if the statement given by Australia's sainted Dr. Fred Hollows, that "certain practices" in Australian aboriginal communities "must end, or there will soon be no more aborigines", seems to suggest that this practice is still going on. Especially when an "aboriginal" teacher in Cairns used this excuse in court to explain his having sex with a young male pupil. No wonder the homosexual community savagely attacked Fred Hollows. They all think that initiating young boys into society by screwing them up the bum is a wonderful idea.

And we also are guilty of stopping the aboriginal practice of holding somebody responsible for the death through old age of any old man, and killing the supposed offender. Guilty of stopping aboriginals from killing the second born twin because they believed the second twin was a "spirit." Guilty of preventing aboriginal men of raiding neighbouring tribes and kidnapping the young girls as wives and sex slaves. Guilty of saving the lives of old aboriginal women who were usually just clubbed to death when they became too old. Guilty, guilty, guilty.

I don't see anything in aboriginal culture except perhaps their unique art that is worthy of preservation. I think it strange how "progressives" sneer at "conservative" Australians for their nostalgia of 1950's white Australian culture, when at the same time encouraging aborigines to wallow in a brutal and misogynistic stone age culture.

My own explanation for aboriginal dysfunction is simple and follows a natural progression. Stone age people who's lifestyle is hand mouth, who did not grow crops, did not need to evolve those parts of the brain associated with higher thinking. Most criminals have low intelligence. 1+1 equals 2

Joe,

You start talking about exemption certificates and then add in a throwaway line about the stolen generation. Ten is hardly a large sample size and I don’t think anyone has claimed that the entire generation was stolen.

Back to exemption certificates, though. Based on what little you’ve said, you paint a very different picture to Chris Cunneen in his text book, ‘Conflict, Politics and Crime: Aboriginal Communities and the Police’.

<<Exemption certificates meant that, once they were issued, people couldn't go back and live on the 'mission, on rations.>>

Yes, convenient that. Then there’s also the fact that they were only granted to those who demonstrated to the Chief Protector’s satisfaction the capacity to survive in the outside world. In other words, they were imbued with capitalist values regarding money, time and work. I would say that that’s also a deliberate attempt at cultural dispossession. Not to mention the fact that exemptions could be revoked at the whim of an administrator, with no right to appeal.

I’m sure your wife’s family could leave a mission without an exemption certificate, but they wouldn’t have been granted the same rights as whites without them.

LEGO,

Whether the culture is good or bad, the effects of removing it from an entire people is going to have catastrophic effects. Then there’s also the dispossession from their lands, which, according to their superstition, was sacred. There was also more to Indigenous culture than savagery and art.

<<Stone age people who's lifestyle is hand mouth, who did not grow crops, did not need to evolve those parts of the brain associated with higher thinking. Most criminals have low intelligence.>>

I knew it would eventually come down to intelligence with you. The fact that Indigenous Australians never went through an agricultural revolution should come as no surprise given their environment and isolation. No one people just invented agriculture. Inventions are the result of a network of ideas from various different places. Having agriculture in itself doesn’t make us smarter either. At least no more than the required problem-solving skills and constant battle of living hand-to-mouth.

AJ,

Where to start ? is there any point ? Yes, of course, even casting pearls before swine may pay off eventually. But it is difficult trying to explain to an ignoramus who believes he knows it all.

Okay, exemption certificates: "<<Exemption certificates meant that, once they were issued, people couldn't go back and live on the 'mission, on rations.>>"

Yes, people couldn't get, say, both unemployment benefits AND rations. Actually, people did, come to think of it. By the way, at least in SA, unconditional exemption certificates couldn't be revoked.

Your top-of-the-head remark: " Then there’s also the fact that they were only granted to those who demonstrated to the Chief Protector’s satisfaction the capacity to survive in the outside world." Not really, in my experience, people seemed to be desperate to get away from the parasitism on the settlements and find work, any work, and do it, regardless of whether or not here was some booby-man Protector looking over their shoulder. And the vast majority of those 'workers' didn't go back to the settlement out of sheer choice.

Your comment: "In other words, they were imbued with capitalist values regarding money, time and work." Pretty clearly, you have no knowledge of the long history of Aborigijnal people working in the 'Western' economy, right from the first days. Here in SA, the whaling industry attracted many hundreds to the South Coast for many years. From there, they contracted to work for local farmers - for standard wages - in order to buy the sorts of goods they had become accustomed to. As well, people became far more mobile, with access to ships, horses, etc., so roamed around picking up work all over the State.

And in the process, changing their cultural practices, and by choice. One thing that struck me again and again, typing up those documents, was that Aboriginal people did whatever the hell they liked, within limits. Anybody trying to force them to do anything would be like herding cats, it really would have.

[TBC]