Craig
"Peter, JKJ, et al, evolution is nothing special."

It's special to me.

Edward Feser is of course a completely unhinged all American loon, as described here:
http://encyclopediaofamericanloons.blogspot.com/2011/01/1285-edward-feser.html
He is also quite sympathetic with the kind of politics and "culture" promoted by the sado-masochistic cult opus dei.

Dear Sells,

I am not cross with you at all. I am fairly sure we could have a pleasant meeting. Having very different ideas does not mean we could not enjoy each other’s company. I have been annoyed with you in the past but am used to you now.

You characterised the Trinity as bedrock Christian doctrine. Although some had maintained it previously it was not adopted as Christian doctrine until Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea in the year 325. My daughter goes the Unitarian Church which does not accept the Trinity.

You wrote: “The transferability of sins is not on my radar at all.”

I thought Christian doctrine maintains that Jesus took upon himself the sins of the world. If that is not something you believe or is not doctrine we need not discuss it.

The virgin birth was not invented by the writer of Luke. We agree that it is fiction, but we disagree that it is profound. We also apparently agree that Luke was not the author of Luke. The virgin birth is a common occurrence in pagan and other non-Christian mythology. Mithra, Adonis or Tammuz, Attis, Krishna and other gods were all born of virgins.

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From “Pagan & Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning” by Edward Carpenter

“Justin Martyr again, in the Dialogue with Trypho says that the Birth in the Stable was the prototype (!) of the birth of Mithra in the Cave of Zoroastrianism; and boasts that Christ was born when the Sun takes its birth in the Augean Stable, (1) coming as a second Hercules to cleanse a foul world; and St. Augustine says "we hold this (Christmas) day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the Sun, but because of the birth of him who made it." There are plenty of other instances in the Early Fathers of their indignant ascription of these similarities to the work of devils; but we need not dwell over them. There is no need for US to be indignant. On the contrary we can now see that these animadversions of the Christian writers are the evidence of how and to what extent in the spread of Christianity over the world it had become fused with the Pagan cults previously existing.”

IMHO one gross defect in Christianity is Jesus. I am an atheist, but if I were to accept a God it (logically it would be sexless) would be a presence not in human form. In that sense Judaism, Islam and Buddhism are all more reasonable than Christianity. However, the reason that Jesus was born of a virgin seems to me a device to render the new cult acceptable to people who were accustomed to divine figures resulting from virgin births.

As I understand most pagan religions had nothing to do morality. One worshipped the gods and sacrificed to receive their favours. Morality was determined by community standards or philosophy.

Therein lies another major flaw in Christianity. It incorporated the Jewish Bible and fused that morality with the new religion. The Jewish Bible is not all bad.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

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From my earlier post (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5580#154255):

>>The Jesus figure just seems a more recent version of pagan legends of a redeemer born of a virgin and put to death. Jesus is an analogue of Adonis, Mithra and Apollo.<<

In view of the above about cultural evolution, this is as world-shattering for me as the discovery that I share 95% of my DNA with a chimpanzee. Christians - except for literalists - have learned to accept that man was not created in one go as described in Genesis, so (Jews and) Christians should not be surprised that what they see as God’s self-revelation was also subject to an evolutionary process.

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Not only should you love your neighbour as yourself, but should not vex a stranger who is not your neighbour.

LEV 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

However, the Jewish Bible also accepts slavery, is intolerant of homosexuals, is patriarchal and reflects the stone age morality of its time. One problem with any religion is that it incorporates the mythic structure of its founding and continues it in a society where it is no longer appropriate.

One of our current problems is that our uncontrolled population growth is destroying our environment and making the world less habitable for future generations. What does the Bible tell us:

Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

That is very bad advice in today’s world. The Catholic Church ameliorated the effects of the bad parts of the Bible by filtering its injunctions through church doctrine. Unfortunately the printing press encouraged general literacy, and people got the Bible raw.

IMHO the mixture of a humanoid god with stone age morality was toxic. The humanoid was supposedly perfect. Christians were supposed to imitate this perfect person. Since humans could not a neurotic guilt was inculcated. I read St. Augustine’s “Confessions.” His speculations on time and space were sublime, but he agonised that he had stolen pears from an orchard as a teenager. Pelagius had more sense in maintaining that we are born without guilt. However, faced with a choice Christianity appears to choose the less reasonable alternative, and original sin was adopted as a doctrine. The lugubrious moan, “We are all sinners.” pervaded Christianity. Of course we all are also good, kind and generous, but Christianity focuses on guilt and sin.

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