< I am no fan of paedophiles or of those who sexually assault women or adolescents. I do, however, think that we all have good and bad sides to our characters, and that, if we dismiss the artistic or other work of all those with known dark sides, we will end up shunning some of the great achievements of humanity. >

Absolutely.

< I can't help thinking that the reaction against Harris has been heightened because another celebrity, Jimmy Savile. >

< Harris clearly did not go nearly as far as Saville. >

Not by a million miles.

Thankyou Brendan for putting this issue into its true perspective.

you/asked\a leading question
i will reveal/the leading ANSWER*

if by/ouevre/your measuring the future value/of his art
its going to tripple/why i hear you ask/his work/his art/now is a secret sign/by design/to help the perverts of innocence align

anything with kids/in it he has captured a new audience
the kiddy perverts never pay the rent/they ruin innocence/open too many eyes.

but the best use/is our leaders needs get suplied
so tey send young fathers to jail/take away kids
the system runs on the blackmail dirt you got on people/and nuthing as usefull to the master controlers running their fiefdoms/that having kiddt dirt on em/sadly its policy[you need have that big stick/to do treasons/like sell telstra/tellecom/and give public sevants their own slush trust pension funds

the dirt runs deep
whats the numbers in jail/they even got their own prisons
their incarceration costs are tripple dopers/in jail with the ones fiddling their kids

rot in hell/its time this abuse system fell
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6462&page=20

I have to wonder how much or to what degree the sentiments expressed here are responsible for the depravities of celebrities and other high profile individuals.
It seems many of these individuals firmly believe they are either above the law, or their contributions entitle them to exceptional status. Our politicians clearly and firmly believe they 'deserve' the extraordinary sums we pay them to represent us -despite not being representative of us.
From a moral standpoint, ends never justify means.

PS, "ouevre"? Misspelling fancy words rather detracts from the arty-farty effect methinks.

Rolf Harris's conviction has certainly put his achievements under a cloud but just how we should react to the other celebrities names is vary much a case by case basis..

In Lewis Carroll's (Charles Dodgson's) case, although he certainly had an interest in children which later generations would describe as unhealthy.. he did not hurt or molest them/feel them up or any of the things Harris did. He did nothing illegal then and possibly nothing that would be considered illegal now.. (taking pictures of naked children with their consent - dunno how that travels now). None of the children later complained.

Whatever urges he had, he restrained himself. Harris didn't, and he deserves jail, and his body of work should go under a cloud for some years.

HOW TO HIGHLIGHT/the dark arts
see that all good true/usefULL beautiful artistic true/goes direct to the higher realms[AND YES THERE ARE A FEW OF HIS WORKS/[AND michal jacksons songs there as well/

but its all about the vibe/of the works
the feelings it awakes/i think an exsample wil better explain

i will use this text
http://www.ghostcircle.com/ebooks/JSM_Ward%20-%20Gone_West.pdf

Chapter XXI In the Third Division. A Library in Hell ...... 132
Chapter XXX The Fifth Division. The Blatant Materialists. Churches in Hell .............................. 153

Chapter XXXII The Sixth Division. A Church and its Vicar ......................................................... 156

ITS NOT BEING PREACHY ITS JUST THE WAY IT IT
scum floats with the cream
till after naturally dying/they get sorted

let god decide
do nt despoil your reality looking at the unclean/obscene
its not fun if it hurts/by their works/and only the vile works go to hell/where more of that ye gave unto others is done unto thee 70 fold

thus dont stain your own soul/by judging anyone
lets god judge/but he in his wisdom/simplt gives more of what you gave

its not rocket science
god=mercyfull/the demons sought much worse
and dam angels only ever seeking to give grace show mercy and support the bit of our beloved god/that needs reside in such evil space/sustaining their vile living reveals his grace

damm preacing
but really/at least look at the plan/sent down
refute that one/if you can\judge ye no-man/nor woman/allow the their innocence/WE ALL DONT NEED UNDERSTAND/only the evil go to/hell

Gone West
18
Chapter VIII
A Plan of the Spirit Plane
SIXTH TRANCE VISION OF H. J. L., BY J. W.
ON MONDAY, FEB. 9TH, 1914
H. J. L. “For your general convenience let me tell you that this realm is divided as
follows: —
“1. Belief with works.
“2. Belief without works.
“3. Half-Belief.
“4. Unbelief. — Hell.

Don't forget Horatio Alger. He was kicked out of his Unitarian church for molesting boys.
Regarding Roman Polanski, I refuse to watch any of his movies because of what he did and his refusal to face up to it. I also believe that his ability to continue and make profitable movies is what led a large number of movie industry people to sign that reprehensible petition against his arrest in Switzerland.

i will try to decribe/how our lifeS karma
the good/and bad/we*chose to willingly DO/unto other
all goes/to heaven/and the bitter fruits fall into hell

so how does that affect me/much DEPENDS ON HOW MUCH OF ME/IS LEFT when i leave behind the material/side of me[ie/the soul weights up to 9 grams/an 85 kilo man/discards\ eighty-four plus kilos/that few grams of you live on[in the realms described in the previous link/

so how low/has the most of your lifes enerfgies[fruits]/sank

like i have made commentary/that resides in the lower bits of hell
i need get down to there to restore the value/of the bitter fruits that in that realm do dwell

the link/defines but one realm/there are at leadt 8 more
this is the realm/of beliefs/and the fruits that went wrong

the godless will enjoy the two
facedNESS OF THESE churches/in hell*;)
for there these virtues of the haters rightfully belong

what of rolfs works hang in that church?
he at death needs go at least that far down/to clean the stain he put on his soul/but in time/we aLL DO

one day we wILL MEET
THINK/ABOUT\THAT.and you both can read each others minds/what thoughts will repluse/him\expell him from heaven/to where those thoughts belong/

we all going down/it depends on us helpng other recover
that rewrites the wrong bitter fruit/that brung us down

but lest we forget/to get grace/we need give grace/then find out how that felt

give first
then get what you beget/none if us seen nuthin yet...

give mercy/to gain mercy
give pain to get pain/more of the same shall be a given/
i have defended/thus wil thus be defended/but who have i offended

phew mainly just me
the we/him who calls himself me/reveals himself to be
by forgiving the bit players we write our own play
thanks stan/have a nice way/ta0/karmic stay*

An interesting case for the defence of a serial sex offender, who exploited his fame and "cuddliness" to worm his fingers inside the knickers of young girls.

But I'm not quite so sure that I would be so keen to base such a defence entirely on the quality of "the heritage he left behind in art and entertainment."

The quality of which, I'm afraid, cannot remotely be compared to that of the other exemplars in the article. To put Rolf Harris in the same category as Richard Wagner, for example, is beyond ludicrous.

His "entertainment" was targetted at the young. A more accurate assessment would therefore be to measure his talents against, say, the Wiggles.

Thin gruel indeed.

The reaction against Harris is not surprising and should be expected.
It is a feeling of betrayal and the portaying of himself as a really
friendly and outgoing personality.
It appears from reports that it was all a big front.

It is the public disappointment that is so widespread and felt equally
amongst all and is so intense that there is no alternative but to wipe his presence away.

Maybe 20 years after his death and the passing of many who feel betrayed
his work may be reconsidered.

' I am no fan of paedophiles or of those who sexually assault women or adolescents. I do, however, think that we all have good and bad sides to our characters, and that, if we dismiss the artistic or other work of all those with known dark sides, we will end up shunning some of the great achievements of humanity. >

Absolutely. '

As no fan of the Catholic church I see no evidence of this prinicple being invoked despite the fact that they set up the first schools, hospitals etc.

There is no excuse or reasoning for child sexual abuse. The horror remains with one forever. What Harris did was worse than wrong. However, is the world to be punished by being denied his art work?? His paedophilia did not make him talented. The great men mentioned in other posts survived. Their greatness has survived not their fault.

What punishment is enough for a paedophile? To remove his art from the public domain will only place more value of it in years to come because of it's scarcity. What does it say about us, you and I, as a society that his crimes were ignored and he was allowed to prey on more children because those who knew would not speak up. For whatever reason those in authority refused to alert the world to the evils of Rolf Harris.

Having a disabled wife who relies on him, is not a reason for lessening his gaol time. He can afford to get professional help for his family. Let him rot in gaol. The damage he has done to innocent people, is immeasurable. I do not wish him evil as I am sure life will never be the same for him. Life has a way of surviving and for Harris, the good times are over.

(OT) You are kidding, runner.

>>As no fan of the Catholic church I see no evidence of this prinicple being invoked despite the fact that they set up the first schools, hospitals etc.<<

There were nationally-accredited schools in China more than a thousand years before Christ. Athens and Rome had school-based education five hundred years BC.

The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Sri Lankans all had formally-established locations for healing, i.e. hospitals, hundreds of years BC. There was even a hospital chain, established by King Asoka in Hindustan around 230BC.

Your knowledge of history is as faulty as your reasoning.

Art and sexual deviancy go hand in hand but I think a lot of people would see a contradiction in the chattering classes encouraging Bill Henson to exhibit his photos of children while urging the banning or erasing Rolf Harris'works.
We are to presume or infer nothing about Henson's character when we look at his pictures of naked, dirt besmirched children yet we are supposed to be mortified or shamed by the sight of one of Rolf's completely innocuous cartoons or landscapes?
There's something very wrong with such a mindset.

Jay of Melbourne

u r likely to be howled down for stating the obvious.

'Your knowledge of history is as faulty as your reasoning.'
Your abilty to twist and distort is amazing Pericles. Just try reading a little of Australias history instead of grabbing at straws to enable you to stay in denial

SO MANY THINGS/are so/BLEEDING OBVIOUS
as obvious as/bleedING so to be clear to something/
devience/inteligence and most of lifes skills are awaoken
[many dont concieve what that means/their inspire driven/to be liked

some do things as expected/some talk when exited
but every skill needs be awoken/and the awakening comes via many roots[routes/and even brutes

to quote joe<<~Art and sexual deviancy go hand in hand!"

IS~not an understatement/AS WE MELD/with the others of liKEPASSION
[im reminded of a thing called a school estedford/where these innocent/school chldren/became madonas in sexyness/on stage

hour after hour of nubiles lving out their teacers fantasies
i cant watch it/i see the demon urges stired up/and not love demons[but wholy abusive face in the dunny type perversion

recall i love naked/porn/its great
but so much is abusive/demeaning fantasy porn/only real in picure/type porn/but that yet drags the vieuwinng of it to the lower hells

joe<<but I think a lot of people/would see a contradiction in the chattering classes encouraging Bill Henson to exhibit his photos of children while urging the banning or erasing Rolf Harris'works.>>>

i would add/in things like child beauty pageNTS/
kids modeling underwear/or dressed as sluts/by slutty mothers serving peverted fathers

its a fine line/chldren looking sexy/thats a real presnt danger

joe/is right/to say<<We are to presume or infer nothing about Henson's character when we look at his pictures of naked, dirt besmirched children yet we are supposed to be mortified or shamed by the sight of one of Rolf's completely innocuous cartoons or landscapes?~

yes joe<<There's something very wrong with such a mindset.
by the fruits of teir works will we know then

Errrr... what, runner?

>>Your abilty to twist and distort is amazing Pericles<<

Are you suggesting that my comments on your post are wrong? Are you saying that you are in fact right, and "the Catholic church... set up the first schools, hospitals etc."?

In which universe can my observations be regarded as twisting and distorting anything? I was simply setting the facts straight.

In your rush to slag off yet another poster - a highly familiar stance of yours, by the way - you made a mistake.

And are not big enough to admit it.

The ability to be able to draw cartoons or landscapes with some talent does not lessen a paedophile's crimes.

I have no doubt there are some good artists amongst the criminals in our jails, just as there are out in the wider community.

I don't consider what Harris did to children as young as seven a 'moral flaw'.
I consider it a sexual deviant crime worthy of long jail time.

Runner, why bring your religious rubbish into every thread on this site?
It becomes very boring...

The ability to be able to draw cartoons or landscapes with some talent does not lessen a paedophile's crimes.
Suseonline,
I totally agree. Just like I agree that child sex tourists should be charged on their return to Australia notwitstanding them being Australian.

<< It is a feeling of betrayal and the portaying of himself as a really friendly and outgoing personality. It appears from reports that it was all a big front. >>

I don’t think so Bazz. I think it was his genuine personality. It was the good side of his character.

<< It is the public disappointment that is so widespread and felt equally amongst all and is so intense that there is no alternative but to wipe his presence away. >>

There is a very real alternative – to realise that this sort of behaviour, as bad as it is, is human nature, is prevalent throughout history, and is much worse in many places around the world, with no come-back on the perpetrators.

And to realise that his life achievements are really very good, and should be cherished…. and that all of this stuff should absolutely NOT be wiped away because of the bad side of his character.

There should be no equivocation here. Adults having sex with children destroys their very concept of self. Children should be allowed their brief time of innocence and care free exploration without some adult pervert destroying their lives.

Rot in your own hell of perversion Rolf Harris, since you have destroyed many lives because of your sick weakness. Rolf had the money to entertain his wildest fantasies with prostitutes, yet preyed on our most vulnerable.

I think that we need worry no more about Harris's d'ouevre.

Dear individual,

You wrote;

“Just like I agree that child sex tourists should be charged on their return to Australia notwitstanding (sic) them being Australian.”

No you most certainly do not.

You thought the English and Australian girls Harris assaulted “just led him on until they realised money could be made by stitching a bloke up.” You saw him as a victim to conniving under aged girls and feminists.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6462#192007

It then follows that you must really think the child prostitutes in Asia are just leading our Aussie blokes on to get at their money and they are the dinky di victims not the girls.

Dear fungus,

I am with you on Polanski. Can't stand to watch his films either and the fact that actors like Winslet and Foster still work with him after what he did is a sad reflection on them.

the child prostitutes in Asia are just leading our Aussie blokes on to get at their money and they are the dinky di victims not the girls.
SteeleRedux,
To defend these sicko Australians who prey on the poverty of the families up there is the height of a lack of integrity.
One thing Harris did not have to do & that is look for cheap sex like so many australian sex tourists do in Asia. They go their for real under age sex not just some perving & groping. They'r ruining thousands of lives with as yet unimaginable consequences. What Harris did is not to be tolerated, what Australians do in Asia is tolerated by other Australians or at least I see no evidence of any being treated like Harris..

In answer to the title question, Yes.

The value of a most art is a very subjective thing often impacted massively by the reputation of the artist. Sometimes being on the fringe or considered extreme helps but there is a line there which when crossed changes the rules big time. One of the factors that helps artists is the impression of being authentic even if exteme.

Harris has lived a lie with a public persona clearly very different to his actions, instant loss of credibility. His market for his art and music has never been the anti-establishment fringe some of whom might be inclined to overlook deep character flaws.

Most of the others mentioned have not been convicted of any crime relating to child abuse, one in my view avoided that by having enough cash to pay off witnesses. In the case of Dodgson its probably almost the exact opposite, I'll accept the premise that there was an unusual interest in children and the view that it never turned into abuse of children. Entirely different to Harris situation. I get the impression that the acceptability of Polanski's work has suffered in many quarters due to his actions.

R0bert

SteeleRedux & Poirot,
This one's for you. I just saw that on the Net, that one puts Harris to shame but where's the outcry ?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-07/melbourne-man-jailed-over-child-sex-abuse-in-philippines/5579200

Dear individual,

Here is where this stands right now.

The words “just led him on until they realised money could be made by stitching a bloke up.” are etching themselves into the way you are assessed on this forum. They are not only defining you but giving the rest of us some insight into why people like Harris was able to get away with his actions for so long, mostly because of attitudes like yours.

Unless you disavow yourself of your original quote everything else you offer up from your keyboard will rightly be viewed as self serving obfuscation.

Do yourself a favour.

giving the rest of us some insight into why people like Harris was able to get away with his actions for so long,
SteeleRedux,
I think we best get that from the horses mouth so to speak, Poirot intimated that she had a bad experience in that field so it would be interesting to hear how she dealt with her assaillant & how long he got away with it.
Btw, what do you think should be done with australian child sex tourists ?

Runner, why bring your religious rubbish into every thread on this site?

Susie its called freedom of speach something feminist stuck in their dogmas detest.

Runner, we know you would prefer that women were seen, but not heard, but that will never happen.
We have dragged ourselves out of the shadows of men, despite people like you kicking and screaming :)

individual,

I see you've transferred your grubby tactics over to this thread.

I did relate an experience in the other thread that happened when I was ten. I also stated that it happened once - and further stated that I stopped a second incidence (you appear to read only what you want to) I also related that I felt shamed, powerless and not inclined to confide in an adult - and that for most of the years since (until now) inclined to keep it to myself.

This is what you said to me in reply:

"Btw, did you end up getting your stepfather locked up or wasn't he famous enough ?"

Posters here can judge you on that response.

Aside from the fact that you spent the entirety of that "long" thread attempting in "every post" to mitigate Harris's culpability in his own demise...none more telling than the quote that SteeleRedux has included here...that Harris's victims...

" “just led him on until they realised money could be made by stitching a bloke up.”

You have zero - zilch credibility on this matter.

im hearing/if you knew suzie/like eye knew suzie
so thats the clue sue has much to say

and that more than once some old perves hand needs be firmly moved

/the sick\show signs of recovery sue?
or how about how nurses /have experience with kids private space

ie sue its a change to educate/how kids need their privacy
need the ability to imagine in innocence

or even the young child brids with prolaps
sue here is the time to fight back/with fact/

some poor kids get ripped appart
so much related to this topic sue
just from your work/talking now can help fix it sooner*

make us cry
demand to know why/by what right get indignant*
this is the time before the news cycle moves on
and oppertuinities to end the uncertainty are gone

Harris crossed a social line and the previously valued childlike naivety, spontaneity and innocence of his paintings that were valued one suspects by people who wouldn't recognise decent art if they fell over it, are now seen as artifice and fraud.

His music is also very superficial, no deeper sentiment or meaning at all and often just silly, also fails to impress for similar good reason.

Popular art varies enormously in price because the public who buy it are fickle. They buy the image presented by marketers who sell fairy floss and call it nutrition.

This article contains some obvious, fatal, logical flaws. The problem with online opinion, speaking in the broader sense and not just commenting on the OLO site is that there is usually no editor to sort the wheat from the chaff even at the most basic level. We must put our faith in freedom of speech and the usual good sense of the public to sort what the editors previously did for them.

The public see Harris as a grub and there is concern that serious offenders like him can easily use the power of their privileged positions in society to cover their tracks and avoid accountability for years, and sometimes for life. Victims and whistleblowers who do come forward are threatened and maybe even punished into silence. How does that work and what are the remedies? That is not a subject that is receiving attention, but it should be. We don't need more laws. That is just politicians papering over cracks.

You are right Oneundergod, I have seen and heard far more than ever I wanted to in the course of my work.
The thankfully few times I have had much to do with Psychiatric wards, one thing I noticed on almost every mentally ill patient's file was that they had been sexually abused as kids. They have then suffered a lifetime of mental illness.

I have also worked on paediatric wards and seen the dreadful physical damage done to children's genitals and anus's after sexual abuse by adults in their lives.
The mental problems were to follow.

I have had to deal with little boys and girls who screamed in terror when they saw any adult male nearby, and try to explain this terror to baffled male staff members who were every bit as wonderful nurses as any of the female nurses.

I have had to deal with very traumatised adults, including the elderly, who still relate their horror stories of sexual abuse when they were children , because they feel safe telling this to a nurse.

So yes, I hate any child sexual abuse, and the disgusting paedophiles of any age , who have at any time in their lives, abused children of any age.
I don't care who they are, or what they painted, they all should be treated the same...

tHANKS-SUE.[for keeping te filth yOU SEE DAY CLEAN]

the problem is its all so pErvasivE
for example religion/which we both detest/often speaks of age disparity/old holy men getting a child[im just now witnessing it on tv
[the 'grea spirit/it seems wants a mate[in this canadian fable[and young rough face[clearly a 'girl'..'get the prize
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=great+rough+face+spirit&i

and thats the problem/with kiddy sexaulisATION
[LIKE DESING KIDS SEXY/its just plain insane
but even worse is being that reject that plain-jane/or ugly like that kiddy fiddeler so no woman 'wants them'..ITS HARD TO GET AWAY/FROM this youth adoration cult

I, like many others was shocked by the disclosure of Harris's crimes. When I heard of his paintings being removed from public view or destroyed, I saw another wrong. Harris had a talent not often seen and enjoyed by millions of people. I do not condone destroying his art work but I do feel that when and if this art work is displayed, it should have recognition of his criminal behaviour. Something like:

by Rolf Harris.
Born Australia ...
lived mainly in London,
found guilty of child molestation (London) 2014.

I feel this stigma attached to him now will eventually fade away with time which is unfortunate. But to deny the future world of his art would also be a crime. However, let future generations know of his crime.

Having re-read this I really wonder if, in 100 years time, will anyone care??