Whoopde-doo.
Moral person displays their fine moral plumage.

We Australians just tossed out a crooked government that wouldn't do their duty to protect Australian borders. Apart from stealing 5 billion dollars to just waste, many of these economic migrants are violent and truculent, as we saw in the ABC film of the towed-back ones and the testimony of the staff at detention centres after violent riots, arson, assaults and rapes.

A thousand dead people at sea and all that cost - the direct consequence of Rudd pandering to you moral poseurs.

Now the Coalition stopped the boats, turned them around to a place they are in no danger, and stopped the ongoing deaths; so now self-righteous nitwits display peacock fans of protest songs and candlelight vigils. I suppose it will be giant puppet heads next.

We voted this kind of stupidity OUT of Government with historic swings against Labor and the Greens. Why should we celebrate your posturing and preening for the cameras?

<< Changing to community-based solutions would cost approximately $500 million>>

Only if you STOP counting once they are rubber stamped "Found to be genuine"

However, if you CONTINUE thereafter TO COUNT the cost of servicing them and their sensitivities, and the tens of thousands of others your weak-kneed approach will encourage to give it a try, and the relos they will all inevitably sponsor. The cost of a soft community based capitulation will run into the trillion$.

Isn't it amazing. Not a peep from these people whilst labor was happily putting people into camps. Now with the current government trying to sort out the mess they inheritated these protesters suddenly find a heart and a concience. Or did it just take them six and a half years to wake up? And where is the condemnation of the parents who risked their childrens lives on the journey and are responsible for where they are now?

Laura,
You know that the parents of the kids in detention should be charged with child abuse for putting the kids in danger on the boats.

I care not about your silly demo.

This government is stopping the illegal entrants, which is the important thing. Then we can close the detention centres down as they become no longer required.

Oh god, what is wrong with our young men today.

Air heads like Laura should be protected from themselves. They should never be allowed to trouble their pretty little heads with these matters. Their milk of human kindness would ultimately destroy them, & the Ozzie lifestyle along with it.

In the past these young ladies were kept too busy, barefoot & pregnant behind the kitchen sink, to get involved with things too difficult for them to really understand.

So come on you young blokes, get busy. Do your duty. You don't have to join the navy to help protect our boarders & way of life. You can do your bit by keeping the Laura's of the country contented & busy with things more suited to their emotional responses to the world.

Hell it might even be fun doing it, so come on, get busy.

Dear Laura,

I applaud you. You saw a wrong and did something about it. Rudd and Abbott are also Christians. Their behaviour is more common among Christians than yours so you acted in a non-Christian fashion. Good for you!

DEAR LAURA...im not sure what your trying to say
but yes jail is very enlightening..I DO IT a lot
so what else have you got?

are you the missionary..DOING SOMETHING FOR OTHER?
but i see my keyboard is shifting key AS I TYPE
AS I TYPE BY THE DIMMING LIGHT]

MY POINT IS HERE YOU ARE GETTING INVOLVED
WITH THE EXACTLY WRONG SOLUTION..

take them Home with armed guards..TRADE people..and lawyers
rebuild *their own society/..that which/your talking of is the wrong christian THINGS/

CHRIST WOULD BE TAKING THEM BACK HOME..
SO MUST YOU..[GOVT AND CHRISTIAN/MUSLIM AND JEW]..TOGETHER must DO

or THEY WILl GROW UP LIKE ME/
NO friends no relations no family..[that giVE A DAMM]

ABUSED AND ANGRY/RESENTFUL
YEARNING FOR MY LOST HOMELAND
Do them a favour..take them back*..home*

with TRADESMAN/TOOLS LAWYERS.
RECALL THE PARABLE/OF..THE long lost son
this applies...TO ALL OF US..[outcast/REFUGEE/IMMAGRANT
LIVING HERE/.ALL

WE WERE DRIVEN/FLEE FROM Oppression..
BECAUSE of 'WAR'..WERE WE driven off OUr/own land
[Just to ALLOW..our ABUSERS..to colonize REAP PILAGE AND PLuNDER..our our inheritance/our culture..our resources our land..to dESTROY THE RIGHTS OF OTHER INdigenants..to steal the birth RIGHT..OF others home-LANDS

please understand.Oz is hell
i wish someone had of taKen my parents back HOME
THE PROCESS Of colonization/by the money changers is to move EVERYONE ON.run away from your HOME YOUR FARM..YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS

HERE IT HAPPEND LAST SUNDAY..INUSA
BUT GOES ON EVERY DAY/THATS WHY THEY RAN AWAY
http://rss.infowars.com/20140414_Mon_Alex.mp3

PS THEY STOLE YOUR DNA
its now measuring your bio info

now..you dont own your boDy/ANYMORE/YOU SIGNED* A PROMISE TO 'APPEAR'
[did you have to SIGN* A pAPER-CONTRACT TO GET OUT?}
til the judge judges you..your a NON /FREE..BUT LIVING BEING.

A PERSON UNDER SATANS COLONIZATION BY ACT
THAT WORKS BY FORCE/TILL WE SEND IN LAWYERS.

peace/is giving..all our inheritance
you come foR REFUGE..WE TAKE YOU BACK home..protected..by law.

Well done and well said Laura.
Be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves, Banjo, Sparkyq, ChrisPer, Has been, SPQR, hiding behind your pseudonyms and being foul mouthed and abusive. Gutless. If you had any achievements to your name you would not need to hide. Creatures of the cracks, come out of the closet and identify yourselves, otherwise step out of the debate. Not that what you have posted in anyway constitutes debate.
Eventually there will be a Royal Commission into the deliberate harm done to asylum seekers by the Howard, Rudd, Gillard and Abbott governments and you will be on the side of the damned. But then you will crawl away and pretend that you never held such ill-informed and cruel views.

Bruce Haigh

Well said Laura. The detention of asylum seekers is a stain on our national character. I feel I must apologise for the comments to your article. They are the usual grim, nasty, disappointed and abusive lot who inhabit the comments section of OLO.
Peter Sellick

Dear Laura,

I applaud both your ethics and your preparedness to risk your liberty to highlight the terrible blight of children in mandatory detention. I note that Tim Wilson, the Abbott appointed Human Rights Commissioner has repeatedly, stated children should not be held in detention. Please do not mind the barbs thrown by some members of this forum. Many are just scared small minded people with issues.

More strength to your arm.

…II am very glad that in our community there are a lovely collection of the middle class, with nothing more to worry about but another’s business.

...In the meantime, the vast majority of the population are self-absorbed in simply surviving the rigors of the capitalist rip-off; busy paying their excessive bills on wages (if lucky), forced down by an increasing wave of desperadoes, who, willing to work outside the confines of the regulated wage system, drive down our standard of living!

…Would it be timely now to remind the author, Australia does (as always) present it’s “Front Door” to refugees; the back door is shut!

"Eventually there will be a Royal Commission into the deliberate harm done to asylum seekers by the Howard, Rudd, Gillard and Abbott" etc. says Bruce.

Come off it Bruce, that could only happen if we gave the whole country, & not just the asylum to the inmates.

Even if we were that crazy, there's not enough of them to form a quorum, just enough to make a lot of ill informed noise.

I am more and more convinced that many of the open borders advocates are on autopilot.

Get this, from Bruce Haigh [the opposition to Laura is apparently] "being foul mouthed and abusive Gutless"

The nearest I can get to finding abuse is someone called her a dimwit and another called her and airhead --pretty mild stuff!

But that was after she told us:
1) Lies were being peddled in parliament --and only she a few others knew the truth.
2) The media was <<bedding>> politicians (the mind boggles!
3) And we were morally corrupt.

I support freedom of speech and the right to protest, however both can be done in a lawful way and without interfering with other people.

Would it impress the public? No, I don't think so, particularly if there was trespass. There are democratic decisions and regulations that inconvenience most people at some time or other, but it is not acceptable to take the law into your own hands, and create more work for the police and courts.

Some could see it as a selfish, self-promoting media stunt that unnecessarily inconvenienced other citizens who were going about their private business.

An unfortunate side effect could be that it might encourage activists who are unhappy with churches to stage their protests on church property and maybe during services.

An approved protest in an approved public area could have been more effective. That would be the up-front, inclusive, participative way of doing things.

Bruce Haigh,

While I see personal abuse as counterproductive, there needs to be some numeracy applied to this issue. The Gallup Poll organization in the US has conducted surveys around the world in countries that hold more than 98% of the world's people. They asked people if they would like to emigrate and where they would prefer to go if they could. They then calculated a "potential net migration index" for each country.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166796/potential-net-migration-index-declines-countries.aspx

Australia's is 136%, meaning that if we opened our borders, our population would immediately more than double. It is actually worse than that. If the other preferred destination countries didn't also open their borders, then most of the people who would like to go to Europe or the US would no doubt happily move to Australia as a second choice, at least until conditions became as bad here as in the places that they were trying to escape. Open borders are suicidal, and that is effectively what you are asking for.

An asylum seeker arrives by boat after having destroyed his travel documents and identification. He tells an unverifiable story that ticks all the boxes of the Refugee Convention. The Immigration Department official is advised to give asylum seekers the benefit of the doubt, and it won't be a good career move to get it wrong and reject someone who ends up killed or tortured. Even if an asylum seeker is rejected, it is likely to be impossible to deport him in practice. He has no documents, so how do we prove where he came from? Even when there is no controversy on his nationality, his home country may refuse to cooperate. Iran has been notorious for this. The numbers can snowball until they are truly mindboggling. There were half a million asylum claims in the UK between 1997 and 2004, when the UK got tougher, not counting dependants who arrived later. Only 23% were found to be genuine refugees, even after appeal. 76% of the failed asylum seekers were not deported.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/9.14

See also

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/migration-uk-asylum

BEECHy/quote..<<..An approved protest in an approved public area could have been more effective.>>

thats so funny/recall the earlier link/TO LAST MONDAYS SHOW/down
it was mentioned..toDAY..THE HIRED THUGS..'created a rree speech ZONE'
[READ caged off area]..in the middle*.LOL.. of nowhere..the Arizona plains
http://rss.infowars.com/20140416_Wed_Alex.mp3

ON THE BUTCH..YOUR Amazingly on point..of what THE MAN WANTS
[Us gagged to protest]..anywhere OR Anytime..at all..OUT OF sight..[off/SITE]..OUT OF mind.

..[go protest here/no..GO HERE../or over there..
no we can STILL HEAR..YOU/GO TO JAil..break ya arms..handcuff.the works

[tell me beach bum..you ever hAD TO SIGN ANYTHING TO GET OUT OF JAIL/oR Do you jail-em..on command..OR JUST BLOG THE COMPANY LINE?

like SEE HOW..the armed thugs [MERCENARIES]..backed off at the bundi farM?..we just NEED A RALLYING POINT..AND BRING THE LOST KIDDIES HOME..Instead of sitting in jail we are bringing them homE.

<<>.An approved protest in an approved public area could have been more effective.>>

rubbish..its called containment
look up the approved protest zones at g20..colonization meeting in Brisbane..FREE SPEECH ZONES ARE INTIMIDATION..unlawful..

<<.. That would be the up-front, inclusive, participative way of doing things.>>

THEY DON'T WANT US
THEY Want the jailing contracts for their mates to train mercenaries to take others lands/OR WE CAN OFFER TO MAKE THEM PROTECTORS..OF OTHERS VALUES[COMMON WEALTH]

talking with you is draining..but think mate
they deserve to be safe..aT HOME..FIGURE OUT WHY THEY CAME HERE
GIVE IT TO THEM TO GIVE TO THOSE BACK home..see you have a home/THINK WHAT COULD POSSIBLY DRIVE YOU AWAY>

GIVE THEM Lawyers and armed guards/TO SEND HIM THE MERCENARIES STEALING THEIR HOMES AND Farms..let agree to RESTORE TO CEASER THAT Rightfully his.

Dear Graham, for the past few days I have wondered if you have a line drawn, below which you will not publish comments, often quite offensive, abusing authors and/or comment writers?
It is demeaning not to be presented with considered opinions but, basically, to feel one is slogging through effluent from persons who, in print, appear to be bigots [all, of course have a legal right to be bigots] or despisers of those without their own attitude toward humankind.

Dear Carol83

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" Luke 6:41

<<being foul mouthed and abusive. Gutless [Bruce Haigh]>>

<<They are the usual grim, nasty, disappointed and abusive lot [Sells]>>

<<Many are just scared small minded people with issues [SteeleRedux]>>

God bless you, Laura.

I am proud of your courage and compassion.

I am not familiar with what you did in Bishop's office.
I do not generally approve of trespassing, but whether it's OK to trespass on those who constantly trespass on our lives, is a very complex question.
I am afraid that what you did hardly made a dent in the misery of detained children.
I think that to help those children, covert ways should be more effective than your overt ones.

Here is a dilemma:

If it was possible to quietly free all refugees, but in order to deter others, keep falsely advertising through the media and through conscientious people like yourself, that 10000's of children are being locked up in detention-centres under the most horrible conditions - would you cooperate with the government in order to help those children?

If I were in Abbott's place, I would secretly release all refugees into the community and instead fill the detention-centres with actors and allow photographers to sneak in near the fences, supposedly unbeknown, and film them in seemingly squalid conditions, or even interview them, hearing stories of beatings and torture.

Can we know for sure that children are indeed currently being detained? Can we know for sure that you, Laura, are not part of the system?

When numbers of so-called asylum seekers, discovered that an Australian passport was permanently off the table, many opted to return home.
How do we know who needs asylum? Well, if genuine, as with many post war applicants, presenting with identifying documents, genuine asylum seekers self identify!
Some former asylum seekers, (genuine) are on the public record, stating they would gladly suffer the travails of a tropical paradise, in comparative safety, than tolerate the terrible conditions in some of the camps.
Our new deals with places like Cambodia, will limit asylum seekers, to the genuine!
Some of who, have spent literal generations in camps, far and away, far worse than anything on Mannus or Nauru!
True Christians would be able to discriminate, and stop an evil people smuggling trade, the very first consequence of which, denies genuine asylum seekers, an allotted place!
People, who can shell out $15,000 for a short one way journey from Indonesia, would have to find far less money, if they kept their papers and passports, and traveled here as fare paying tourists, and then claimed asylum on arrival!
It'd be a lot cheaper and infinitely safer!
The reason they deliberately destroy their documents, are varied and many?
However, the deliberate destruction of any and all identifying documentation, allows war criminals and persons that would otherwise fail a reasonable character assessment, to simply beat a very fair appraisal system!
And as for those poor persecuted Tamils?
Well Southern India is just a few hours away by boat! On a clear day, by tinnie!
And India, has a very large, very sympathetic Tamil population!
Surely Tamils would have found genuine safety, just a couple of hours from their home?
Instead of taking the very dangerous journey, that risks the lives of women and children.
I think we need another new law, which should read!
No papers, no processing! Break that one at your personal peril!
Rhrosty.

Dear Laura,

Sometimes it is hard to see any Christianity in Christians. If you have joined the ranks of refugee advocates, civil rights lawyers and the Green left, then I fail to understand how your compassion and values for all human life went out the window.

I understand that your theological values drove you to protest against those like Julie Bishop who saved the lives of over 1,000 men women an children, I understand that you perceive that over 1,000 men women and children in detention are worse off than being dead, I understand that you have not been with the men and women of our ADF forces as they retrieved the drowned bloated bodies of children and the body parts of their parents, I understand your determination to distance yourself from your policies that caused such carnage.

I don’t understand how you sleep at night? If what you are saying is a reflection of Christianity, then a pox on it along with all those who support it.

At the very least you should cease drawing attention to your political ideology and stop hiding behind your theology, law and religion.

You’re a disgrace to humanity let alone Christianity. Accept your own culpability for such tragedies and stop the “laying of blame” on those who want it ended.

One day you will awake from your ideological naivety and beg forgiveness of your maker for your transgressions against his youngest and most vulnerable creations, his children. You will ultimately be judged by your creator and will say to him what? Oh Lord, I offer my article on OLO, but I was young and naive?

If you have children of your own, one day one of them might ask you the one question that will destroy you. “Why did all those children die Mummy?” Your sad, sorry, dysfunctional, deviant and valueless heart will be ripped out, and so it should be.

Dead children are dead, thank your maker that they are not YOURS and that someone outside your own religion is trying to look after them!

Yours in abject disgust,

spindoc.

carol83,Refugee Advocates are contemptible people, can you please instruct us on what politically correct language we should be using to express our disgust at such individuals?
Rhrosty,
Yes the 'Anti Racist" loves to point out that in the postwar European migration many "Nazi" fugitives were admitted to Australia disguising themselves as refugees and no doubt later many Communist war criminals also made their way here from Eastern Europe.
There are good reasons for the ethnic conflicts in Asia, there are good reasons why men are threatened by their enemies or detained, tortured and executed.
Does it ever cross the minds of the advocates that even by their own moral standards just maybe these fugitives deserved to be beaten, burned, starved and otherwise placed under duress.
After all those "Nazis" were fleeing exactly those conditions in postwar Europe, the British and Americans brutally tortured and murdered German prisoners, so if suspected Nazis "deserved" that treatment then perhaps suspected Tamil Tigers, Iranian dissidents and Islamic apostates also deserve everything they get?
So would the Refugee Advocates also give the benefit of the doubt to members and associates of, say the South African AWB if they claimed asylum?

I like Julie Bishop; I think she has guts.

The Rudd and Gillard governments have blood on their hands for dismantling a humane and civilized system put in place by Howard which ensured GENUINE refugees and not financial opportunists were given priority.

People like this author and her supporters always adopt a morally patronising and accusative tone towards those who have to pick up the cost of their moral indulgence.

Most of the boat people are Muslims. It is the height of irony given the behaviour of Islam towards women that a women should be subverting the democratic process of her country to support members of a theology which not only abuses women systemically but wishes to overturn the democratic structure of her country which allows her moral indulgence.

Laura, your naivete is very touching.

Here are (just some of) the headlines resulting from the people you campaign for:

Bangladeshi asylum seeker Rubel Sheikh jailed 15 months ...
Asylum seeker Mohammad Salem Nazari to appear in court ...
Asylum-seeker charged with abduction, two counts of rape ...
Report of sexual assault of asylum seeker | Asia Pacific ...
Australia: Asylum seeker charged with indecent assault
Rape allegation by female asylum seeker in detention ... - Abc
Sexual assault allegation in Christmas island detention ...
Abbott Government in crime crackdown on asylum seekers ...
Female asylum seeker alleges sexual assault by Christmas ...
Report of sexual assault of asylum seeker | Asia Pacific ...
Australia: Asylum seeker charged with indecent assault
Asylum seeker wife bashers released into the community ...

Well may you weep for asylum seekers. How about weeping for their victims?

Laura, if you're serious about helping people who turned up in boats uninvited, you should study these resources very closely - they're all about domestic violence in refugee communities:

http://www.speakout.org.au/dv02-03.htm
http://www.redcross.org.au/community-assistance-support.aspx
http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/~/media/ProgramsandProjects/DiscriminationandViolence/ViolenceAgainstWomen/CAS_Paper4_Refugee.ashx
www.adfvc.unsw.edu.au/specialcollectionsrefugees.htm&#8206;
www.communitybuilders.nsw.gov.au › research and resources&#8206;
dro.deakin.edu.au/view/DU:30007483&#8206;
www.refugeecouncil.org.au/r/spn/130626-SPN.pdf&#8206;

Jay of Melbourne.
Everything you say, could contain an element of truth?
But the overwhelming post war displaced arriving here, were Jewish, and deprived on all sides, of their property and processions!
And they, almost to a generic man, treated their identifying documents, as their most prized remaining processions!
That said, the true asylum seeker has very little difficulty, recognizing the occasional fake!
Today, we have heat seeking cameras, and computer assisted facial recognition that assists that outing!
If I had my druthers, I'd subject all former living asylum seekers/refugees, to these new validation tools, if only to eliminate those, who like former Nazi's, managed to slip through the net, and as you claim, fool the world's foremost experts!
I don't have any problem accepting many more genuine refugees! We could easily double or treble our current intake!
I'd just want to ensure, that they all came in the front door as invitees, rather than the radicalized activists, some of who are patently slipping past our filtering systems?
I also am bewildered by some types, who having forced their way in, can do no better than bag Australia and everything Australian, particularly our marriage laws that prevent control freak monsters from bedding little prepubescent girls, not yet even teenyboppers!
And often forced into arrangements, not of their choosing; and therefore condemned to a lifetime of sexual slavery or early death in childbirth?
Rhrosty.

Cohenite,
The illegals are also 84% adult males but we still keep hearing about all these poor little "children" in detention.
How many of these poor little babies are actually fighting age males, 15-18 years old? It's actually around 94% adult males since in the Third World "youths", 13-18 year olds are considered to be men and will behave like adult men in comparison to our own kids.

Carol, I'm not sure why I am held responsible for comments. Every comment submitted goes up in the first instance. I moderate if someone draws my attention to a comment which breaks the forum rules. Sometimes I see a comment that needs to come down, but I do not read every comment.

So far on this debate I haven't seen anything that needs to come down, given forum rules and the general standards of forums like this.

I've been published twice on The Drum and the comments thread was not a pleasant place to look - worse than anything I've seen on OLO.

Rhrosty, Eh? What? I'm surprised that an erudite poster such as yourself would fall for that furphy.
According to the Israeli government figures I just now Googled Australia absorbed about 7,000 Jewish DP's after the war.
Jews were a tiny fraction of the European migrant intake after the war, for example we took in 56,000 Poles, 20,000 Latvians, 15,000 Hungarians and 100,000 Germans, that's besides the Greeks, Yugoslavs, Italians and all the other continental European migrants.
The Waffen SS was a truly multicultural force with millions of volunteers drawn from all parts of Europe and due to it's links with the NSDAP it was deemed a culpable organisation by the allies, that's where this idea of war criminals posing as refugees comes from. If you were in the SS you are considered a war criminal whether you were a base camp filing clerk or the man who operated the gallows at Buchenwald.
I'm just having a dig at people who use this phase of history to deflect criticism of their support for "refugees" today, sure, it's morally equivalent on the level I've described since then and now refugee advocates are willing to turn a blind eye to criminals posing as displaced persons.
It's the same mentality exhibited by the Allied bureacrats who allowed so many Ahnenerbe personnel to emigrate to the U.S and elsewhere, even some who'd worked on extremely dubious projects such as at Natzweiler-Stuthof. Just like the former Nazis the Tamils and Hazara are politically useful to the elites so their many flaws and shady past lives, if discovered at all are overlooked.

what beats me about the 'Christian ' activist is that if you want to do something useful to allievate the suffering of probably billions then give some hard earned cash to the multitudes of organisations doing a good job. Many commentators who overlook the drowning of a thousands and are dirty that Abbott and Morrison stopped the drownings continue their line in order to keep their appearances on Q&A and the Drum and other public sucking propaganda machines alive. Imagine Bruce and his co-horts admitted they had egg all over their faces. Must keep up the 'progressive ' views in order to sure up spots on the public progressive spin doctor paid for by you and I.

Thanks for that JOM. I can't help wondering how many of those Poles, Latvians, Germans etc, were also Jews?
I mean, there were certain advantages, up to the end of the war, in not being Jewish? And their paperwork, may have reflected that.
I mean, plenty of various so-called allied nationals turned on the Jews for reward or just a loaf of bread!
As did some Jews, who may have kept their real origins to themselves, fearing retribution?
Boat people seeking sanctuary, are hardly a new phenomena, with the ship of shame sailing halfway around the world, and the Jews only allowed to disembark, with the exchange of very large sums of money? That said, I'll take your research on board, with the respect such investigative fact checking deserves!
Cheers, Rhrosty.

What will you do when you let them out, then other parents send there unaccompanied children?

Approx 50 million refugees world wide, how many will try to come?

Where do you get the thousands of homes to house the 50,000 plus Gillard and Rudd let in?

Now will go go to jail in support of the tens of thousands of homeless Australians?

Guess one reason why the pension age is proposed to be raised to 70, refugees that have been in Australia more than 5 years and 85% are still on welfare we support too many bludgers and Economic Invaders.

http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil.html points to Thoreau’s Essay on Civil Disobedience. He went to gaol in Massachusetts as a result of refusing to pay taxes to support the Mexican War which he thought was wrong.

From the site: “While Walden can be applied to almost anyone's life, "Civil Disobedience" is like a venerated architectural landmark: it is preserved and admired, and sometimes visited, but for most of us there are not many occasions when it can actually be used. Still, although seldom mentioned without references to Gandhi or King, "Civil Disobedience" has more history than many suspect. In the 1940's it was read by the Danish resistance, in the 1950's it was cherished by those who opposed McCarthyism, in the 1960's it was influential in the struggle against South African apartheid, and in the 1970's it was discovered by a new generation of anti-war activists. The lesson learned from all this experience is that Thoreau's ideas really do work, just as he imagined they would.”

Those who use civil disobedience must accept whatever is done to them without violent retaliation.

It doesn’t always work, but violence doesn’t always work either. It should not be used where there is a democratic alternative. In the case of the asylum seekers with both major parties taking the low road apparently Laura Vertigan didn’t think there was a democratic alternative. I don’t either.

It has worked in the US to get rid of the laws mandating racial segregation. It has done much to realise the promise in the US Declaration of Independence that ‘all men are created equal’. Gandhi used it in India to get free of the British occupation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest tells of an incident during WW2 in Berlin where it even worked against the Nazis.

By protesting and publicising her protest Laura Vertigan is appealing to the conscience of the Australian people. I wish her success. Please read Thoreau’s essay. Even if you don’t agree with it you will learn what Laura Vertigan is about.

We should never lose sight of the bigger picture as to why there are so many refugees on this planet.

Firstly is the phoney US war on terror that is really about stealing Iraqi, Lybian, Afghanistan energy/resources and containing Russia and China.Read 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' by Johns Perkins and learn how the West gets countries into debt and steals their resources.

Bankers who create money from nothing are able to own our Govts ,media, huge corporations and thus us.

Oxfam recently quoted a stat that 87 people on earth have more wealth than the planet's 3500 million poorest.

This pre-occupation with illegals is a just a distraction from the real game of looting our economies and keeping us peasants subjugated.

Dear Laura.

The entire western world is getting utterly fed up of the importation of people into their countries, who have cultural values diametrically opposed to those of the European countries they wish to inhabit, and who's ethnic, religious and tribal loyalties transcend any sense of national identity. The primary reason why third world immigrants want to invade your country, is because their own multicultural countries are so hideously overpopulated, that the different cultures are polarising and are turning on each other.

The reason why you live in a prosperous and free society (which is getting less free because of multiculturalism) is because Australia is still largely populated and ruled by white, and usually Christian people. If you want Australia to turn into a third world state, just keep importing third world people from other cultures. This is already happening in Europe, where the stupid Euros are now doing their population sums and figuring out that the native whites will become a minority in their own countries within 50 years.

And the people who they are now importing, and who are breeding like flies, have no interest in maintaining the freedoms that you take for granted and which drives our prosperous economy. If you are a Christian, then go and talk to some Christians from Egypt of Syria, who will tell you in no uncertain terms what living in Islamic societies is like for Christians.

Everyone in the third world would just love to get on a boat and live in the first world. They will do anything to get here. Anchor babies, sending their kids, destroying their identities, demanding refugee status, and rioting if they do not get it. Your Christian charity should be directed at the your own people and maintaining our free and prosperous community. Not misdirected at people who simply barge uninvited into our country, who are only concerned with themselves and their own groups welfare, and who may even want to destroy the values you cherish, while destroying the prosperity you take for granted.

arjayquote..<<>.This pre-occupation with illegals is a just a distraction from the real game of looting our economies and keeping us peasants subjugated>>

see how they sell suberbia..in sitcoms
we bought into the dream..instead of family we are 'the team'
or the state..or the nationality..or the sex..or the skin..my point is we are all being made over into clones..

how to explain whats going dpown globally is they give us foodstamps or subsistence dole/where most half goes back direct to some capitalist ladloord..landlord..[we ARE SEEING REAL ESTATE UP AGAIN IN IRELAND..yet still 5000 ghost estates they bought up pennies in the pound

to rent assisat imagrants
to fill to fill the capitalist bill..dole rent assistance..[yet more drain/from the public purse..filled only by selling more public services or sin taxes or other increases in govt theft[read tax burden]

WE ARE SEEING HOUSES GO UP/SEEING EVICTIONS AND REPOSSESSIONS THEN HUGE GOVT TAX ADVANTAGED FIRMS CREATING THE NEXT INVESTMENT BOND[RENTED HOUSING]...damm caps..ie the next bubble/rental houses paid for immigrants via dole payments

its a hidden bailout
but further burden on us..GLOBALLY..
http://rss.infowars.com/20140417_Thu_Alex.mp3

i wish people would..get the facts
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node

arjay/Tquote..<<>.This pre-occupation with illegals is a just a distraction from the real game of looting our economies and keeping us peasants subjugated>>

see how they sell suberbia..O US..in sitcoms
we bought into the dream..instead of family we are 'the team'
or the state..or the nationality..or the sex..or the skin..GROUP/MOB

my point is we are all..being made over into clones..
ONE BRUSH TARS US ALL/WE ARE ALL SINNERS/WE ARE ALL IMMIGRANTS.

we are all children
of the one most holy living living merciful wholly spirit.

how to explain..to loved ones..whats going d
own globally is they give us foodstamps or subsistence dole/
where most half/govt income..goes back direct to some capitalist ..landlord/tax free off shored trust..stealing govt bailout cash

[we ARE SEEING REAL ESTATE UP AGAIN IN IRELAND..yet still 5000 ghost estates..they bought up pennies in the pound..stand empty

but/what if..we could..get cash/from govt via rent assistance for immigrants ..nice sure govt cash-flow..to fill to fill the capitalist bill..dole/rent assistance..

[yet more drain/from the public purse..filled only by selling more public services..[privatisations..of govt income streams..or by ever more sin taxes or fees fines revenue acces chargES/other increases in govt theft..[read tax burden]

WE ARE SEEING HOUSES GO UP/..YET/SEEING EVICTIONS AND REPOSSESSIONS..homeless joblessness broken homes..go up to

THEN..HUGE GOVT..bailout/mates..with TAX ADVANTAGED FIRMS CREATING THE NEXT INVESTMENT BOND..bubble..[bunded RENTED HOUSING]...damm caps..ie the next bubble[rental houses paid for immigrants via dole payments]

its a hidden bailout/THE GROWTH MODEL DEMANDS
but..ONLY PUTS further NON PRODUCTIVE/Burden on us...ALL .GLOBALLY..
http://rss.infowars.com/20140417_Thu_Alex.mp3

i wish people would..get the facts
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node
GIVE THINGS A REST
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16225&page=0

Bruce,
It's pretty normal in these types of forums to use a pseudonym. What's more important is that you've got something interesting to say. I thought the first few posters here were doing well in contributing to the other side of the debate. Though they did it rather colourfully, the debate needed that balance. I would expect that anyone that was asking to get arrested and experience the inside of an Australian holding cell should be tough enough to take some well intentioned jibes and ribbing.

Michael Viljoen

Well said UOG. The next big economic collapse is coming and there will be far more refugees. The BRICS nations and others are bailing out of the US $ and it is losing its reserve status as a trading currency.

When big trouble happens at home,nations almost always go to war to subdue their own populations and steal resources/energy. The USA with 850 bases around the planet seem to think it can win a nuclear war. Luckily their elites have underground cities fully stocked where they can wait out a nuclear winter. There is even one under our Parliament house in Canberra.

This is why Russia and China are being demonised.

>>The reason why you live in a prosperous and free society (which is getting less free because of multiculturalism) is because Australia is still largely populated and ruled by white, and usually Christian people.<<

Other posters have written of Christianity as a civilising influence.

WW1 was fought largely among Christian nations. Nazi Germany had a concordat with the Vatican, and the German churches almost all supported Hitler and the Nazis. I am glad the atheistic communists managed to repel the Christian Germans.

The adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire directly led to the Dark Ages as the spirit of inquiry was suppressed in favour of following the dictates of the church. An example of that was the murder of Hypatia, woman teacher, astronomer and mathematician, in 415 CE at the hands of a Christian mob. She was a pagan who refused to adopt Christianity and taught counter to the injunction of St. Paul that woman should not teach.

In Spain under Muslim rule there was a Golden Age where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in harmony and contributed to the arts. This was followed by the Christian reconquest of Spain. The expulsion of Muslims and Jews along with the Inquisition followed.
After Luther challenged the Catholic Church the Wars of the Reformation resulted in the great slaughter of Christians by other Christians.

In the eighteenth century the founding fathers of the United States of America formed a new nation. To prevent a recurrence of the religious wars that had ravaged Europe they wrote a constitution which did not mention God or Christ and implied separation of church and state. Other western nations have followed that example, and there is a great degree of separation of church and state in many of them.

It is not Christianity that is the civilising influence. It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion. The separation has also benefited religion. Christians and followers of other religions can look to their religion to challenge the excesses of the state. That is what Laura Vertigan has done.

This is an excellent response, David!

Just a slight correction if I may:

<<It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion>>

Barbarism is not a feature of religion itself, but of certain institutions which are religious in name only.

Otherwise I truly commend your response.

The separation of church and state is essential for religion - otherwise state-affiliated churches suffocate religion.

@Davidf

<<In Spain under Muslim rule there was a Golden Age where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in harmony and contributed to the arts>>

It has been pointed out to you many times in the past that the idea of a tolerant golden age in Moorish Spain is highly exaggerated --but you have chosen not to assimilate it.

Dear SPQR,

I haven't assimilated it because I think there was one. I also think that there are those who wish to deny that there was one.

Yuyutsu wrote:

Just a slight correction if I may:

<<It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion>>

Barbarism is not a feature of religion itself, but of certain institutions which are religious in name only.

Dear Yuyutsu,

That is not a correction. That is an expression of a difference of opinion. Barbarism is a basic feature of religion. I think most religion is a group of people bonded together by the joint agreement to accept certain tribal myths. This incorporates barbaric feelings towards who question or deny these myths and those who seek to be free from the strictures put on them by religion. Religion has also inspired great art, music and feelings of compassion. It has done much good. It has also done much harm. You were not correcting me. You were expressing a different opinion.

"It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion."

Yes and the only religion which is striving to break down that separation is Islam.

I draw your attention to the Paradox of Intolerance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

In the West we have degrees of tolerance and freedom which do not exist in the lands from which the immigrants come from; the problem is those people who come as refugees bring with them the very intolerance which they fled from. How do you resolve that? Not by Section 18C which is used by Muslims against legitimate criticism but by exposing what Islam is. The trouble is the same progressives such as this author, who want the Muslims here as an expression of tolerance do not confront the intolerance of those they have tolerated.

It is an act of foolishness which is destroying the West.

There was no "Golden Age" of Islam, Islamic conquerors destroyed all the libraries, monasteries, churches and artwork which fell under their control, "If it contains information which is in the Koran we already know it, burn it. If it contains information which isn't in the Koran we don't need to know it, burn it!"
As for Jews, Christians and Muslims living in harmony that's the biggest load of BS in the whole narrative, there's a reason the Jews were booted out of Spain with the Muslims and had to hole up with their leaders on Sicily. Jews were notorious slave traders, they sold millions of Europeans into the worst systems of slavery in the Islamic world, where the life expectancy of a slave was about four years.
David F,has it ever occurred to you that Eastern Europe and Spain have always been poor and backward? Do you think it's any coincidence that the areas "enriched" by Islam only begin to show signs of life once the Muslims have gone and that they never fully recover?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

Its only hearsay because I cannot recall the source, but that 'golden age of Islam' was when the Caliph tolerated Jews and Christians in his retinue. Those were a large part of the people who published the scientific learning that gave that time the golden glow.

Davidf,
You're wanting to champion separation of church and state for our many blessings. But give credit where it's due. Such an idea did not begin with the US founding fathers. James Madison, the principle author of the US Constitution's first amendment, credited Martin Luther as the main theorist providing the proper distinction between civil and ecclesiastical spheres.

Both the state and the church benefit from such separation. I am grateful the state helps protect my freedom to worship in my church and follow my conscience. But don't forget the influence Western theology has had on these freedoms. Try finding such freedoms in any middle eastern country or anywhere that has not been profoundly influenced by Protestant reformation teachings.

Dear David,

Religion is the process of coming closer to God - social bonds and allegiances are hardly related.

It is sad to see all the evil and folly that is done allegedly in the name of religion.
It is equally sad to see so many good people believe that this evil and folly is what religion is about.

Chris Per,
The "convivenca" is a myth, Jews, Christians and Muslims barely tolerated each other in medieval Cordoba and sectarian violence was common as this well written and balanced article explains:
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/42700/why-cordoba

Dear DavidF

Albert Speer recounted a meeting between Hitler and some admiring Muslim mullahs who applauded his efforts to exterminate the Jews. Speer recounted how Hitler was full of admiration for Islam as "a warriors religion" which was completely different from flabby Christianity.

One of the reasons for the Dark Ages, was because after Rome fell, Europe was a continent under siege. Muslims from the South, Norsemen from the North, and from the western steppes came a never ending stream of barbarians (Goths, Visigoths, Cimmerians, Huns, Mongols, Franks) looking for land. It was true that the leaders of the Catholic religion misrepresented the teachings of the man/prophet Jesus Christ for their own self interest. But that was a priesthood being unchristian.

It was President Thomas Jefferson who insisted on there being a separation from church and state in a federated union of the 13 US states. That was because within each state, individual Christian faiths were persecuting each other and insisting that their one particular denomination be the pre eminent state faith within each state. But it was also Jefferson who warned that Islam was a dangerous religion. This was because of the attacks by Muslim pirates on US trade ships entering the Mediterranean. Jefferson sent the Sultan of Tripoli a polite letter asking why the Muslims were attacking US ships? The Sultan sent back an equally polite letter replying that Muhammad (peace be upon Him) taught them that infidels were sub humans and fair game for believers. Jefferson would roll in his grave if he knew that his ancestors were stupid enough to give religious equality to Muslims in the USA.

Until only recently, the most prosperous and inventive nations on earth were the white, north European Christian nations. One of the reasons why, is because the Christian faith does deserve credit for many of the virtues found in western nations such as an admiration for honesty, charity, and personnel integrity. Christian societies work so well because they are high trust societies. Compare that to the very high levels of corruption present in Asian and Muslim societies.

David F, you wrote:

"Laura, I applaud you. You saw a wrong and did something about it. Rudd and Abbott are also Christians. Their behaviour is more common among Christians than yours so you acted in a non-Christian fashion. Good for you!"

Two can play at that game: "Julia Gillard was an atheist. By cutting the single parents' pension, she was acting in a fashion typical of most atheists." I have no evidence for that ridiculous statement, just as you have no evidence for yours, but merely use that example to show you that equating a single obnoxious policy with a very diverse group of people you dislike isn't all that logically sound.

LEGO,
Partly true, Hitler had no particular affinity with Islam, he was however unfailingly polite and charming when receiving VIP's so the Imams would have been treated to a warm and hospitable meeting, the Reich's overtures to the Islamic world were really part of a plan to draw Turkey into the war on the Axis side, nothing more.
We agree that Islam never changes, right?
So bearing that in mind we can say with certainty that Spain in the 10th century would have looked like the Middle East in the 20th century with Christian and Jewish communities under constant albeit low level attack by Muslims with sporadic massacres and land grabs, a gradual whittling away of the minority faith communities until there was virtually nothing left. We can also picture the "enlightened" Andalusian Caliphs, think of Saddam Hussein, King Abdullah of Jordan or Muammar Gadhaffi, dilettantes,playboys who want the fine things of the West for their own households while using the brute force and terror of Islam to keep the masses in check. When those strong men fell Spain in 1100 would have looked like Iraq in 2006, gang warfare on the streets, persecution of anyone who was different, warlords and Jihadi groups carving off chunks of the country for themselves.
If you want to visualise a contemporary reflection of the "Golden Age" of Islam you need look no further than Nigeria, Sudan or Somalia, Islam's past, present and future all look the same.

Cohenite wrote:

(quoting me) "It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion."

Yes and the only religion which is striving to break down that separation is Islam.

Dear Cohenite,

Not true. The Catholic Church and fundamentalist Christians are making a great effort to break down the separation both here and in the United States. In Australia chaplains in the public schools are supplied by the fundamentalist Scripture Union in Queensland and Access Ministries in Victoria. Such chaplains are required to subscribe to certain Christian dogmas before they are accepted. The public schools are for all children – not just those of fundies.

There are many instances of Christians attacking the separation. One example:

http://www.examiner.com/article/pat-robertson-blames-9-11-attacks-on-separation-of-church-and-state

“Yesterday, on the 12th anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist bombings, televangelist Pat Robertson spent some time on his 700 Club TV show explaining to viewers why the attacks took place. And the reason did not have to do with Al Qaeda or the failures of US intelligence or Islamic jihadism per se. Nope. It was something far more sinister: separation of church and state. Yes, according to Robertson, lack of faith was the problem.

But not just any faith, Robertson implied. It has to be the right one.”

Boat people are primarily Muslim. That does not mean they are trying to set up a Muslim society here. At least some of those are fleeing because they reject the society they are fleeing from. I know a Muslim Palestinian family with two sons and a daughter. The two sons would have none of it when an attempt was made to get them involved in the Middle East fighting. The daughter is living with an Australian of Irish descent. Our society has influenced them.

One thing that would help is to use the separation to stop funding religious schools of any kind. That produces a fragmented society. If parents want to send their children to a religious school, they or their religious group should pay the entire cost. Australian children of different backgrounds should learn, grow up and work together.

Davidf the whole point of Islam is to create a global Caliphate under sharia law and they've damn near succeeded in realising that goal in the past, if a Muslim doesn't support that aim he's an apostate.
Global Islamic Jihad has been in remission since the 1920's because it's been lacking the support of a state or an empire, now the Saudis, Turkey and the Qataris are pouring money into Islamist groups you're again seeing the glow of burning villages on the horizon. The Jihad only took 20 years to completely destroy the classical world in north Africa and the Middle East, in our own lifetimes we may again see the Islamic armies at the gates of Vienna..or Warsaw..or Paris.

david f, please, you can't be serious, Robertson is a kook and widely accepted as a kook. He does not command the ubiquitous support that sharia does by Muslims.

I'm afraid Jay is correct, any Muslim who does not support sharia is an apostate and in dire trouble [see Ayaan Hirsi Ali].

Support for sharia amongst Muslims is almost total. There have been at least 3 large surveys done amongst Muslims living in both Muslim nations and in the West. The surveys found that Muslims do not like the Western democratic model and want sharia to prevail. See:

http://theclimatescepticsparty.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/the-moderate-muslim.html

Most people don't understand Islam; it is not just a religion; it is a total social, political, economic, legal package which seeks to replace the secular Western model.

Robertson has no such plan in his dimwitted mind. He is just a kook making ghastly capital out of one of the worst atrocities in mankind's history.

I get sick of this continual distraction of comparing Islam to other religions. Islam is not like other religions NOW. Right now Islam is making a concerted attack on Western values. Muslims do not come here to assimilate but to spread their form of sharia.

If you don't understand that you are part of the problem.

hey..troll...YOUR TALKING TO THE HAND

understand?

THE system IS GOING FULL ON
TO discredit an enemy/any enemy..

it needs distractions[re-actions
activations/did-motivations.. it can get on screen/to instill fear

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE5/index.php
http://rss.infowars.com/20140418_Fri_Alex.mp3

TODAYS special ops/NOTES

http://www.activistpost.com/2014/04/more-propaganda-fake-leaflets-telling.html

Earlier this week, Jews exiting a synagogue were handed leaflets by men wearing balaclavas and Russian flags informing them that they were required to register themselves and a list of their property as well as pay a registration fee or they would face deportation, have their citizenship revoked, or have their belongings confiscated...
http://investmentwatchblog.com/cia-director-quietly-visits-kiev-as-20-greystone-mercenaries-vanish/

ITS TYPICAL..[LIKE GAYS BASHING GAYS TO SAY WE GAYS ARE BEING BASHED
[the ruski flags was the give away..pro dis-info intel go away]
http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Dangerous_Neocon-R2P_Alliance/34583/0/38/38/Y/M.html
http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/dear-nato-lying-russia-simply-incompetent/

oh dear dangle a plan..any plane/plan..
how lame/[redirection]..high level defection?

http://investmentwatchblog.com/mysterious-american-plane-caught-parked-at-airport-in-tehran-iran/

or how about gettinG PEOPLE AFRAID..POLICE KIDS...NOT BANKERS?
http://intellihub.com/landmark-case-sees-pirate-bay-user-hit-5-year-sentence/

ANOTHER seed
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/video/tom-sullivan/girls-only-ukraine-imposes-travel-restrictions-russian-men
fruit
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/video/tom-sullivan/female-russian-journo-beaten-while-covering-chaotic-base-siege-ukraine

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/advice-democrats-recovery-23374907
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2014/37_of_voters_fear_the_federal_government

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ADdToI9Akw
the ape/HORSMAN..a pox-o/lips
http://www.bobtuskin.com/2014/04/18/ebola-virus-in-africa-outbreak-is-a-new-strain/

18 DAY INCUBATION BEFORE SYMPTOMS?
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/health/2014-04/18/c_133273774.htm

77% of the Mumps patients got Mumps,by injection
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/03/06/vaccine-failure--over-1000-get-mumps-in-ny-in-last-six-months.aspx
they got it FROM the vaccine!
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/measles-witch-hunt-anti-vax-parents-burned-at-the-propaganda-stake_042014

http://rinf.com/alt-news/latest-news/corruption-mainstream-media/

J.O.M.
You're pretty spot on and off topic with your critique of Islam, as one of the most revised religions in the world, with the exception of peace loving, coexisting Sophism, remaining the most non-revised of all?
Jihad i.e., used to mean, a personal internal struggle against one's own internal demons!
Nowadays, it is quite grossly misrepresented, to allow various factions, to make war on themselves, and do exactly what the Koran expressly forbids, namely, spill entirely innocent blood! And by the shipload!
The problem with these fakers are many, and if they had no religion or "righteous cause", they'd invent both, given, in truth, they are nothing more than just common thugs, rapists, thieves, murderers and the brainwashed, who have found themselves a very convenient vehicle and endless scapegoats, that allows them to vent their inherent murderous blood-lust and other excesses, via endless, supposedly sanctioned, outlets!
Incidentally, many of my Polish and German friends are also Jews, although you wouldn't think so to look at them or their passports, with some, now deceased, admitting to being part of blond, blue eyed, Hitler youth!
Apparently, that latter feature was a bit of an alleged plus in gaining entrance into white Australia.
After all, it seemed to represent, a strong back and a weak mind, very much in demand, during the heady days of white Australia?
Rhrosty.

Dear Dan,

Luther was a mixed bag.

From “Divided by Faith” P.18

Restricting the authority of magistrates to the latter, Luther had denied them any jurisdiction whatsoever over matters of belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

“Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and within Germany he acquired the status of a prophet. According to the prevailing view among historians, his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany, and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the Nazis' attacks on Jews. Reinhold Lewin writes that anybody who "wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther.”

Although he did make a statement about magistrates having no jurisdiction over belief his vicious attacks on Jews disqualifies him as a supporter of separation of church and state.

Separation of church and state means freedom for all religions not just those approved by Luther.

Dear Lego,

A priesthood being unchristian? What Christian priests do is Christian by definition. Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

“The treaty was a routine diplomatic agreement but has attracted later attention because the English version included a clause about religion in the United States.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”

Dear Yuyutsu,

Nonsense repeated remains nonsense.

Davidf

<<What Christian priests do is Christian by definition. Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits>>

Wow!

So can we extend that to: what Muslim imans/ayatollahs/mullahs do is Islamic by definition?

Dear holidayhaven,

Of course you are right. To use one example is not fair, and some Christians besides Laura Vertigan such as Sells have spoken on this list against government and Labor policies in the area we are discussing. Bruce Haigh may also be a Christian. Your statement about Gillard behaving like a typical atheist is in error. I don’t know the attitude of most atheists towards cutting pensions, but I am pretty sure most atheists would not approve of funding chaplains in the public schools as Gillard did.

Dear Jay of Melbourne,

Hitler was charming when he wished and wanted to draw Turkey into war. However, to say that Islam never changes is to make it different from all other human groupings and societies. At present the Muslim world is in disarray. Dictators have been overthrown in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya. A new military dictator against great opposition is appearing in Egypt. Tribal battles are going on in Libya. A vicious Syrian civil war draws in many forces from outside to support Assad or join his opposition. The number of those who have fled that war to go to Turkey and Lebanon dwarfs the number of boat people coming to Australia. After outsiders leave Afghanistan they will continue killing each other. Sunnis, Shiites, Alawites, Druze, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah etc. are busily engaged in slaughtering each other. Saudi Arabia and Iran are at odds. To assume they are going to get their act together in the near future to come after us is unreasonable scaremongering. Before the Soviet Union broke up and China became capitalist in fact if not in name many thought of the communist world as a monolith united to destroy us. That was not true of them then, and it is not true of the Islamic world now.

Dear Cohenite,

Of course I’m serious. Your statement that Islam is the only religion that is trying to break down the separation between religion and state is false. Whether Robertson is a kook or not he is a valid example of why it is’nt true.

SPQR: Right!

Getting back to the original article, sorry, but you didn't bother to check Julie was home before you called! As for the kids in detention, on whose watch did they arrive? Not Tony's, true he hasn't released them, but they are in the main unaccompanied children. Who should he release them too? Much better to contact the governments of the countries they came from, and send them home.

Jon R

stop bringing up inconvenient truths. It does not fit with the ABC charter.

<<Much better to contact the governments of the countries they came from, and send them home.>>

An eminently sensible solution, JonR!

They are playing us for suckers.

SPECIAL PROVOCATEUR/QED/SAID..<<..<<Much better to contact the governments of the countries they came from, and send them home.>>

An eminently sensible solution, JonR!>>

DEAR HERR HITLER
please be advised..we have found a mr ben guriON
HE CLAIMS TO BE THE ..founder of modern Zionism.
we are pleased to be of service..YOU WANT HIM PRE GASSED OR YOU WILL BURN HIM YOURSELF?

dear white power south AFRIKANS
we have found..me mandela..please advise which jail
ONE PIECE OR TWO?

deaR mr pol pot
we have found a band of darkies
should we return them to you/or just chop them up here

<<..They are playing us for suckers.>>

you nearly got it half right half wit
IDI AMIN WOULD THINK YOUR CUTE.BUT..

YOUR PLAYING THE FOOL..BUT HEh..he he.. THATS COOL..
[we know ye by ya work]..VERY PROFESSIONAL MOSSAD HAS TRAINED YOU *SPICS WELL

ANYHOW SHOULD WE SEND BEN GURION..*HOME*
TO YOU BLUE EYED NATZIE BOYS?..want him gassed up?..is the oven hot?

stop playing with the trolls johanneine

Dear oug,

Sometimes humour makes a point that eloquent words and fancy speech doesn't. You wrote a terrific post.

Humor or dementia --my moneys on the latter!

Our current policy costs some $5 billion annually. Changing to community-based solutions would cost approximately $500 million, saving taxpayers $4.5 billion dollars. By the government's own admission, the costs of detention far exceeds any community-based solutions. Additionally, ASIO has admitted that they do not require asylum seekers to be in detention. Beyond an initial security check, it is purely a political move.
Laura,
That would be the case if they suddenly decided to stop coming. What exactly would be your solution to achieve that ? Yes you're right it is a political move because the ALP govt has made it one. From now on though it'll be the more sober type of move, an economical & recovery move.

Laura

You are obviously sensitive and intelligent. However you are not well enough read. Some here have quoted various philosophers supporting or questioning your actions.
None have refered to Plato's story of Socretes.

He disagreed with and was in breech of his society's laws. He had only two choices. Death or exile. He chose suicide.

Today we are much more civilised but the principle is the same. We have many alternatives. One is activitism within the law. If the actions you take are illegal and charges are laid take the consequence without 'sooking' about how noble you are. Your actions are not noble. You have broken our laws and no amount of bleating will change that.
Comparisons with Mandala, Ghandi and King are absurd. They acted in the interests of themselves and for their own oppressed people in their own societies. None were seeking to further the interests of people who were breaching their societies laws.Only Ghandi widely promoted civil disobedience or law breaking even though Mandala was jailed for terrorist activity. They both eventually adopted peaceful and legal methods. King was always peaceful and did not seek to act outside the law.

In all three cases it was legitimate action which eventually bought about great changes.

Your action was illegimate and pointless as it will not change the minds of people within your society. Find another way.

THANKS DAVID/BUT IT WAS A CHEAP SHOT
i put up much the same idea/but my idea was send them home withausie if lawyers and guards..[this de population..is a globa thing/drive off the abo's.buldozer over their village/sell off their lands..or resources.

but the same thing happend with our parents
they too were driven out of their homelands
but it was inspired by the malasia/tamals/or the timoreaze.indonesia
in fact north korea/and cambodia etc etc..send em home needs protection/but moraly its the right thing to do/but ultimatly would need true christians to make it work

the world is getting pillaged and plundered
I HATE THE ID THESE RACISTS WIN BOTH WAYS
ONE LOT OF RACISTS STEAL THEIR INHERITANCE/THE OTHER RETURNS THEM TO THEIR OPPRESSORS..THERE HAS TO BE A WAY TO HELP THE RACXISATS SEE/thats its ok to be race proud.[if thats all you got to be proud/of]

but you got more in common with many
individuals..of the races you despise/than your own race

im saying like science peers/or music type/mental-skills sports
MATH NUTTERS LOVE MATH NUTTING..bepopers love beebopping
the point is hating other..just..for race,..its a non starter

i can point to mass murderous GRUNTS..IN OUR ARMY..
that usually dont condem their whole race...[unless your the current target race]..yes we hate nips gooks crauts huns scums and other tongues..

[we hate because we dont goT ANY ACHIEVEMENTS OF OUR OWN..AND TS THE EASIEST TO DO..TO GET MATES..RACIST GROUPS ARE WHAT YOU JOIN WHEN ALL ELSE HAS REJECTED THEM.

ITS THE SUPPLE RACISM..I HATE..like here it is jesus death day
these racists think jesus wasnt Semite looking/

but here its jesus died today day

and im watching be hur..[the poor jews]..for the fiftieth time
that or some singing jesus]..i just want THE truth.. IN WRITING.

Laura ignore the so called "Moralists, as they know not what they do.
They are anti all who do not agree with them, and obviously live sad blinkered lives.

Dear David,

<<Nonsense repeated remains nonsense.>>

By claiming that "Barbarism is a basic feature of religion" you are accusing myself and billions of peace-loving people of barbarism. You also open the door on the persecution of innocents.

It is ridiculous to grant either a person or an organisation the title 'religious' on the sole grounds that they claim to be so, how more so when their actual actions are totally inconsistent with religion.

But even if you consider churches and similar organisations that CLAIM to be religious to indeed be so, the fact that some people within those organisations are hypocritical criminals does not make the rest of us criminals, some of us not even belonging to any such organisation.

I do take offence for this attack on myself and my religious friends.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I am not opening the door to anything. People have a right to have barbaric or any other ideas. Thought and most speech is free. Religion is free to advocate anything. However, actually carrying out some actions which harm persons or property or directly incite such actions is proscribed even though it is done in the name of religion.

It is a barbaric idea to think there is some Big Daddy in the sky watching over us. Of course not all religions have that particular idea, and your repeated statement that religion is the search for that imaginary entity remains nonsense since non-theistic religions are not concerned with that idea.

You wrote: "It is ridiculous to grant either a person or an organisation the title 'religious' on the sole grounds that they claim to be so, how more so when their actual actions are totally inconsistent with religion."

It may be inconsistent with your definition of religion, but that definition is limited and nonsense. As far as I am concerned I do not pass judgment on claims to be religious. I think it is arrogant to do so. If a person claims to be religious or have a religion I will accept their claim.

I find it hard, indeed impossible to take seriously anyone who equates Pat Robertson, a conservative Christian who has no plans to get rid of the separation of church and state with Islam which is implacably seeking the replacement of the Western secular model with sharia.

It is an absurd position. Robertson has ultra conservative views on some social issues and quite liberal views on other issues such as the legalisation of marijuana. He is also an alarmist. So he has some commonality with the progressive nitwits such as the author of this piece.

Robertson is tolerable by the secular Western system despite his extremism on some issues because he works within that system. Islam doesn't and has its own constitution to replace the secular constitutions of Western nations:

http://archive.hizb-australia.org/hizbut-tahrir/draft-constitution

You may also care to point out the various acts of terrorism Robertson has committed which enable you to place him on par with the extreme violence of Islam.

Dear David,

Running a search on 'barbaric', the first result that came up was:

[
bar·bar·ic/bär'barik/ adjective - the savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal.
"he had carried out barbaric acts in the name of war"
synonyms: brutal, barbarous, brutish, bestial, savage, vicious, wicked, cruel, ruthless, merciless, villainous, murderous, heinous, monstrous, vile, inhuman, infernal, dark, fiendish, diabolical "barbaric crimes"
]

When you first wrote: "It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion", was it not in this sense of the word?

<<your repeated statement that religion is the search for that imaginary entity remains nonsense>>

A statement I never made!

<<I do not pass judgment on claims to be religious. I think it is arrogant to do so. If a person claims to be religious or have a religion I will accept their claim.>>

So if a person claims to be a doctor you also accept it blindly?
What is a doctor and who is a doctor anyway when some universities are notorious for selling doctorates for a fee!
How would you feel if I took that fact in isolation and claimed that "thievery is a basic feature of being a doctor"?

<<It may be inconsistent with your definition of religion, but that definition is limited and nonsense.>>

My definition is etymological, from the Latin "religare": bind, or re-establish the bond between oneself and God. One's inability to understand this process of binding with God doesn't render it nonsense. If you don't understand it, then you could either ask more questions or you could at least have said instead: "since I don't understand 'religion' I make no presumption to tell who is religious and who isn't", but then you wouldn't be claiming emphatically that "Barbarism is a basic feature of religion".

I am religious, I have many religious friends and none of us is barbaric.

Yuyutsu,
Well done for holding David accountable, and pointing out a few of his inconsistencies.

David,
Madisson was your man. Now you're intending to disagree with what he said? Perhaps you want to have it both ways. Though it was not Luther alone, but Protestant teaching in general that helped raise the concepts around church and state separation. You can see today how political and religious freedoms are enjoyed in countries directly proportionate to the degree to which they've been influenced by Protestant Reformed teaching. 

You can't have it both ways. If you want Australia to be secular with everyone having a right to freedom of conscience, then you shouldn't dictate what people should be allowed to believe or not believe. You can't force your atheist opinions onto others, and how they should bring up and educate their children. Parents have the right to choose their own faiths and values for their families.

Your idea of secularism is to force your style of atheist values onto us all. Yet in Australia, separation of church and state means the following; no more and no less:
Ch5 sec 116 the Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required for any office or public trust.

All tax payers have a right to proportionate government assistance for their children's education. Secular education is not meant to mean schools are turned into bastions of atheism. The definition of secularism does not equate to atheism.

If I am reading you right (correct me if I am wrong), you are claiming that all religions are as bad as each other. And that all religions should be prevented from influencing the political process..

Taking your first premise. Christianity may once have been worse than Islam is today. But the Christian leadership of the past was not following the teachings of it's own prophet. The ideology that the man Jesus Christ taught was pacifism and tolerance. The most "fundamentalist" Christians today are the notoriously non violent Amish and Quakers. It is true that the Christian churches are responsible for all sorts of crimes against humanity. But the essential truth is, that those Christians who behave in that way can be regarded by other Christians as not being Christian.

Islam is different. It was started by a warlord who invented a religion similar to the old Shinto "Samurai" or Nordic religions where dying in battle was the most wonderful and religious act a man could do. Mohammad did this to justify imperial expansion and to make his soldiers invincible in battle. Those Muslims who reject violence in support of their religion can be considered as being un-Islamic by other Muslims. And that is exactly the charge that Muslim terrorist groups constantly make towards non violent Muslims.

Whereas both religions are responsible for in all sorts of infamous acts throughout history. The difference is, is that the ideology of the Christian religion proscribes such behaviour, even if their priestly caste and political leaders chose to ignore it. While the Islamic teachings of the Prophet openly encourages it, and it is still advocated by Muslim mullahs today.

For your second premise. All religions have right to influence the political processes in a democracy. The Christians in the USA have tried repeatedly to elect a President who will fulfil what they see as God's law. But only the Islamic religion demands that church and state is inseparable. And that the purpose of government is to advance Islam.

Onya, SPQR.

Laura, I have no doubt your views would be supported by the vast majority of decent Australians who take the time to look at the facts and think about what this policy means in terms of human suffering, especially the suffering of innocent children. I join with Bruce Haigh in congratulating you on a courageous stance and a beautifully written article.

Bruce called attention to the anonymous, abusive comments, which have now reached plague proportions. Although I sympathise with Graham’s concern for freedom of opinion, I believe the case for authors taking responsibility for their views by identifying themselves is, all things considered, stronger. There is room for exceptions if a case is made for secrecy, but thoughtful readers are unlikely to comment on pages which are defaced by trolls.

A recent paper is listed as ‘the most discussed’ for the week because it attracted 184 comments. In fact it was the least discussed, with only one comment on the article. The remainder were private debates on controversial issues which had no relevance to the topic, and whose authors might have been expected to submit their own essays.

Thanks for taking the trouble to write this paper; I look forward to reading more articles written in the same vein.

Max Atkinson

Dear Yuyutsu,

Etymology tells the origin of words. However, usage is the guide for their meaning. The word, religion comes from religio a Latin word. In the Roman world people believed in many gods. If you take the Roman meaning then you would restrict religion to a belief in many gods. However, the binding of religio is its function of binding believers together not to the entity they worship. Some religions such as Buddhism has neither the concept of god or a search for god. However, it is a religion although in your definition it is not.

A diploma from a recognised medical institution is standard for a doctor. There are no such standards to define religion. Standards are set by the government for tax purposes. However, they don’t agree. Some governments regard Scientology as a religion. Others regard it as a fraud. Indonesia in Pancasila recognises only five religions. You have set up a standard for religion by your definition. However, your definition does not correspond to any usage I am familiar with.

Roget’s thesaurus has some other synonyms for barbaric - primitive, tasteless, uncivilized, unsophisticated. I think religion is a primitive relic of an unsophisticated age. I regard it as tasteless and uncivilized.

However, there are nuggets of good sense in religion. One example is the Christian saying: “Hate the sin, but love the sinner.” Even though I do not have much regard for religion I will do my best to give those who believe in the sin of religion the respect and warmth that I would give any other human. If I ever had the good fortune to meet you I would be courteous and friendly.

Dear Dan,

I agree. Public schools should not be bastions of atheism. They also should not indoctrinate religion. Religious or atheistic indoctrination should be no business of the public schools. The public schools should promote critical thinking and knowledge for making a living or going on to further study. The primary influence on Madison and those who wrote the Constitution was the Enlightenment and not the Reformation.

Good for you max; obviously you're a Ludlam supporter who believes the rednecks who oppose such things as AGW should be censored:

http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=968383

You obviously think anyone who doesn't agree with the person who wrote this flim flam should also be censored; is that what you are saying?

Consider what she says: she compares, despite her phony disavowal, her incarceration with Mandela and Aung San Suu Kyi; how arrogant is that?

And she laments the outrage "When Malala was shot in the head by the Taliban" but cannot distinguish between the opportunists and economic country shoppers who come here by boat, who risk the live of their children and scorn not only our nation's integrity but the rights of genuine refugees who rot in camps because of the queue jumpers.

It is absolutely revealing that since Abbott eradicated the criminal gangs profit in sending the boat people to Australia that boat people coming to Indonesia have practically ceased:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/asylum-flow-to-indonesia-slashed-says-un/story-fn9hm1gu-1226832129574#

Good post, Cohenite

It is always amazing how person like Max can moralize about: << abusive comments>>

Then unload with quips like this:
<< I have no doubt your views would be supported by the vast majority of decent Australians>>
So anyone who disagrees is NOT decent?

And <<Pages which are defaced by trolls>>

Clearly Max would like to keep the plebs quiet and in their proper place.

Dear LEGO,

I agree with much of your post. Religions are alike in generally being based on some irrational revelation even though Christianity and Islam have very different origins. However, I accept the Christian saying, “By their fruits shall ye know them.” Both religions are missionary religions which have behaved similarly in many cases. They both have spread through violence. At the beginning of the twentieth century the Islamic world with the exception of Turkey and Afghanistan were occupied by imperialist Christian powers. They didn't usually get there by peaceful means.

Separation of religion and state has helped curb the excesses of Christianity, and if it would good if it would happen more in the Islamic world. In the twentieth century there were two instances of the separation being adopted by a Muslim country. One was Turkey under Kemal Ataturk. Turkey is still a secular state even though there is an Islamic party in government. Muhammed Ali Jinnah tried to set up Pakistan as a secular state. However, Pakistan has by now lost any secular character.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-tunisia-politics-idUSBREA2G0Q120140317

Tunisia’s secular party helped push the ruling Islamists out of office but is open to a coalition with the Islamists if they don’t get a majority in the coming elections.

The above examples show that secularism can arise in the Muslim world. Hopefully it will continue to rise and curb the excesses of Islam as it has curbed the excesses of Christianity.

I agree that all religions have the right to express their views in a democratic context. They do not have the right to use government as an instrument to enforce or spread their religion.

On another topic the length of Laura Vertigan’s incarceration does not affect the validity of her article.

http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil.html points to Thoreau’s Essay on Civil Disobedience. He spent one night in the Concord gaol, but his essay has inspired Gandhi, Martin Luther King jr. and many others.

Dear David,

The binding of believers together into what Buddhism calls 'Sangha' is a powerful religious METHOD or TOOL, but isn't religion itself. Strictly-speaking, religion can do without it, although walking it alone is usually more difficult and treacherous.

The concept of religion as the process of binding with God, as I use it, is not new. In the West it was promoted by Servius, Lactantius and Augustine, but it is more known in the East under the name 'Yoga', which you surely heard about.

Buddhism of course is a religion because it helps its followers to come closer to God. If eating lettuce 7 times a day helped one to come closer to God - then eating lettuce 7 times a day should also be considered a religion, despite the fact that the eater doesn't need to entertain a concept of God, or any other concept for that matter.

The examples you presented show how ridiculous and dangerous it is to leave the definition of religion in the hands of secular governments, thus how important it is to separate church and state. Religion is commonly experienced by religious people: I share this experience with others around the world and of different cultures who instantly know what I'm talking about (and I know what they are talking about) even when they use very different terminologies. How possibly could others who have no such experience try to define it?

<<Roget’s thesaurus has some other synonyms for barbaric - primitive, tasteless, uncivilized, unsophisticated.>>

Is this what you had in mind when you wrote: "It is the separation of church and state that has limited the barbarism of religion"?

If so, then this would be hardly understood when in the former paragraph you wrote: "To prevent a recurrence of the religious wars that had ravaged Europe they wrote a constitution which did not mention God or Christ and implied separation of church and state."

dear laura..they never listen
till you get to court

you have to tell a lawyer.if you wanna be heard.

well im in court 6 of may
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=11
you wanna be witness number 4?
do you really wanna be heard?

you have ignored the thread so far
what would jesus do..testify in court like christ had to

it proves your serious
if you are...see you 6 of may..the court numbers change
but will mention that..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=11

in contract law silence signifies consent
so if you dont refuse here where the offer is
the offer stiLL stands/i will ask the judge to supoena a few..IF A FEW DONT START IT OFF...BUT IM OPENING A PIPELINE..TO OUR LEADERS.SO SPEAK.. in court 6 may..IF YOU WANNA BE HEARD

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=11

Dear Max Atkinson,

I am very much in favour of Laura Vertigan’s actions and have been attacked by many of the other posters for that. However, I feel that their attacks were mostly disagreeing with my views rather than attacking me as a person. That is their right. It is my right to either answer or ignore them. I have no objection to their use of pseudonyms. In fact if requiring posting under their actual names would inhibit them it would make us poorer by eliminating their contribution. If I want to establish contact offline with one of the posters I send a message to Graham asking him to forward it to the person I want to contact. If they wish to answer they will. That leaves it up to them. On occasion a poster may be extremely abusive and exceed reasonable bounds. Graham will then not allow that poster further access. Sometimes a poster will distort my words or put words in my mouth. I will just ignore that person if we cannot have a reasonable exchange.

Sometimes discussions wind up dealing with topics far away from the post or article that started the discussion. So what? Does it hurt anything?

Graham does not have the time to continually monitor all discussions, but I think he does a good job. For those sensitive souls who get upset by a little abuse the words of Harry Truman apply, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

It is a barbaric idea to think there is some Big Daddy in the sky watching over us.
david f,
I'm not so sure about that. I think it even more barbaric to have people like you not being watched over by a Big Daddy. You'd be a danger to yourself if not watched.

You did the right thing Laura. We all have to stand up against tyranny even if Julie Bishop and her party have not the nous to recognise it.

I've been involved in many protests about the lies of the C02 tax ,the lies of 911.It takes only 3% of the population who are aware to make a difference.

'The Wonderful Wizard of Oz' by L Frank Baum was also about oppression. See its secret meaning.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkq2E8mswI

You guys have got Thoreau’s Essay on Civil Disobedience a little wrong.

I tend to agree with his attitudes about civil disobedience toward laws that I feel are massively unjust or wrong and cause great loss of life but I read he never ever contemplating breaking just laws to effect change in unjust laws that do not have those sorts of outcomes.

Who would pay tax if he had?

In Laura's case is she objecting to the law of trespass? Does she regard the laws of trespass unjust?
No of course not for that is a just law and protects us all.

Her gripe is against the laws supported by the majority and she sits in judgement on us and breaks our reasonable laws to do that.

She can do all sorts of other legal actions and actions that are legal to attain her ends and ease her conscience and challenge the consciences of others. There can be no case for breaking our reasonable laws to press her case.

I doubt she can argue our support of laws that prevent deaths and maintain the integrity of our borders are on a par with the oppressive laws faced by King, Mandela and Ghandi,especially when those attempting to settle within our borders, have crossed other safe territory to do so and have other reasonable and legitimate avenues.

The circumstances faced by King etc are extreme and cannot reasonably be compared to Laura's gripe. Apples and nuts.

Imajulianutter,
MLK faced no "oppression" and no danger,neither did Gandhi or Mandela they were free men, men of some accomplishment and privilege who chose to be rebels and martyrs.
For what it's worth Sri Lanka and Afghanistan can be dangerous places even for everyday people who don't go out of their way to draw attention to themselves, nobody on either side of this debate would dispute that.
The conflict here is between a minority of fanatical White "Progressives" who still want to play the old game of colonial White supremacy and the majority who have long ago moved on from that mindset and simply want to live in a bi-racial society where the Liberal ideals of equality and freedom can be advanced without interruption.
Imagine what could be done to bolster the relationship between White and Indigenous Australians without the millstone of "Progressive" White Supremacy weighing us down?
There's no Racist like a Liberal Racist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4PjxSmtoI

Come on now, enough kerfuffle.

We all know she did it, because it was the only way she could get her picture in the papers.

What some females will do for a bit of fame.

Jay

You are wrong the laws that suppressed US coloured people, black south africans and indians also suppressed King, Ghandi and Mandela. By what measure were they as free as those of european descent who shared their society? Especially Mandela?

Jay and there are no ne so blind as those who refuse to see.

The Truth About Nelson Mandela
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7HyuLPWF9I
The Truth About Gandhi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG2bKiRu48Y
The Truth About Martin Luther King, Jr.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgqz3CaAWC0

There are none so blind as those who will not see? Well,indeed.
Let's briefly touch on the idolatry of the politically correct "Progressive".
These holy brown men are Progressive saints, professing as you do the tales of their martyrdom do you also accept that St Valentine really cured a child of blindness? Could St Agnes really foretell the future?
Could St Columba raise the dead?

Jay
I am liberal and have no truck with leftie green politics.

You are an idealogue who is absolutely as blinkered as the blinkered leftie green idiots.

Ghandi King and Mandela, as their actions showed, were more liberal than leftie greenie.
You have swallowed holus bolus the leftie greenie propaganda about all three. You probaly think Hitler was also rightwing and not a socialist.

Ima,
No I probably don't think that about Hitler, the NSDAP was a socialist organisation, the Hitler government used all the same tactics as the "defrormed worker's state" of the Stalin regime, dictatorship, elitism and terror and the SA were just German Bolsheviks, nihilistic revolutionaries who were "liquidated" when they'd outlived their usefulness.
In that case we find ourselves in agreement for the most part but you alluded to the progressive "trinity" and I, as always felt compelled to react. Language is important, what I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of the progressive ideals and how pervasive their memes have become.
By coincidence one of the men I follow on Youtube posted the following just today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sL-VYdduEw

Another Teacher waving here finger from the tower of her experience, harassing kids, she is full off the blind arrogance of that sheltered workshop.

All children in detention are there because of the Green/Labor policy of encouraging them, drowning some and then goaling the rest. A purely inherited problem, so how about some protests outside the decision makers office? Rudd has absconded but Gillard lives on the beach in Adelaide and Plibersek is just a bus trip in Sydney.

IT WOULD BE NICE
TO KNOW WHAT THE AUTHOR THINKS OF HER REPLIES?
[You have to seE WE are all..just 12 year old punks..With a keybored]
OR OLD FARTZ..GIVING THEIR EYES A BREAK...pointing fingers aT KEY BORED WITH SELF.

did you talk with julia?
if you going to do it again..can i come too?

Critics of Ms Vertigan’s behaviour need to respect that she puts her words into action and stimulates debate. Sadly much of the reaction is unconstructive, anonymous and abusive. It’s time On Line Opinion filtered out the rubbish.
Unfortunately Ms Vertigan’s actions don’t help resolve the dilemma no-one seems prepared to tackle.
The boats must be stopped because of the dangers and because the system favors only those with money. The people smugglers don’t ship the most persecuted - only those with the cash.
Meanwhile millions of poor deserving refugees don’t get the chance to flee. That’s clearly wrong.
Long ago Indonesia’s Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa urged a regional solution. This made sense, though no country (including Indonesia) made any real attempts (like stopping visa-free entry and curbing immigration corruption) because asylum seekers aren’t a major political concern.
This left Australia alone – and like it or not, toughness deters. Nobody transits through Singapore. This is a primitive reality and nasty truth. I’m no fan of Mr Morrison’s policies, but recognise the logic in his comment that the right to resettlement is not a ticket to a first world economy.
We may have the space and means to resettle large numbers – but do we have the capacity to accept? Maintaining social cohesion is vital for everyone, from newcomers to first fleeters.
If we all live long enough we may yet see Ms Bishop, Mr Abbott and others facing an international human rights inquiry into their failure to find a better way. Also on trial should be those authorities in Malaysia, Indonesia and other countries that allowed the asylum seekers to transit.
Not present will Ms Vertigan and others who at least took a stand.

Laura, Go back to sleep, take a valium as Prozac is not your thing and dream happy thoughts of a better world.
Until Allah eats pork

Excellent post up there, OUG

Wit like that so rare on a thread like this.

@imajulianutter, Monday, 21 April 2014 3:23:13 PM, "You guys have got Thoreau’s Essay on Civil Disobedience a little wrong"

Well said and the remainder of your post is spot on as well.

Well Mr Duncan Graham,
The people who voted them in should front the commission ( hope there's room for us all).
You mention that Australia has the capacity and mean's but ask yourself this question: Have you seen any Politian take in a refugee, provide suitable accommodation, food, education, Health care and the rest with assistance from the taxpayer. How many can you take into your household without diminishing your current living standard - Let's say 100 Would you still have the same compassion. You would probably say yes of course but other's in our community have sent a clear message NO and therefore we are all to be held accountable for our actions.
Have you been to Centrelink recently It is like being in Africa, Sri Lanka or some Middle-eastern nation. Some of this money is being sent to their homelands so the "people Smuggler's" can proper.
People like Laura wish to ease their conscience by opening our's - Well the polls speak for themselves and guess what "WE WON."
So if bleeding hearts want a country like the one's the UNWANTED have come from then WIN the next election.
( Yeah right - Until Allah eats pork)

Duncan Grahame

Our society is cohesive because we have a legal system and laws that show we have respect for one another. Our laws of trespass are part of that accepted structure as are our laws re immigration.

Laura broke our laws (trespass) while protesting against the detention of those who breached our immigration laws.

If we all endorsed or followed their example our community would soon lack cohesion and quickly descend into anarchy.

Laura was wrong and needs to respect us and our laws and find legitimste ways of showing her dissent.

Quite simple really.

Thank you on the beach. Our attitudes are those that our society have endorsed and worked within for several hundred years. People who dont believe we should follow our laws face Socrete's choice.

Didn't we recently have a teacher awarded nearly $700,000 for damages caused by a child from the Sudan who had spent time locked up in a detention centre? The child was locked up through no fault of his own, spent I don't how long there, and then came out with an anti-social attitude. Who would have thought?!?!? Yet all the talk was about dealing with the symptoms of his incarceration, and nary a word about the idea that he might have been fine had he not been locked up. I'm with Laura - I don't understand what Australia is trying to achieve, apart from being labeled the meanest country in the world!