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The Forum > Article Comments > High Court 'Norrie Case' builds on existing bad laws > Comments

High Court 'Norrie Case' builds on existing bad laws : Comments

By Brendan O'Reilly, published 4/4/2014

The amendments made provision for the alteration (on request) of the Births' Register to record a change of sex, where a person has undergone a sex affirmation procedure.

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I think this article builds on a case for a long overdue bill of individual human rights, one of which just has to be self-determination/sexual orientation!
It's really time, we had the self appointed control freaks, given the duck shove and told, go poke your nose elsewhere; or, mind your own dam business, at least until you've walked a mile in Mr/miz/miss Norrie's shoes.
Clearly, a much more enlightened High Court protects us from bad laws, I Believe, and sanctimonious, holier than thou, religious bigotry?
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 4 April 2014 9:51:30 AM
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>>"Females have two X chromosomes (XX) and males have an X and Y (XY)."

Nope. That's an appeoximation, it's more complex than that. 1 in 300 men aren't 46,XY, and some women are. Rarely, so are the daughters they give birth to. As here..

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
--A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

>>"To biologically change one's fundamental sexual makeup, it would be necessary to alter the chromosomal identity of every single cell in the body"

Er... why? Why should chromosomes be deemed to be the be-all and end-all, and why "every single cell"? Would one cell make a difference? Two? A thousand?

A bone marrow transplant can change your genes. An XX woman can end up being an XY woman if the donor was XY.

See
Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8

>>"biological sex ...is something determined at conception"

Nope. A conceptus can result in half a person (fusion of embryos), two people (identical twins who may even be of opposite sexes) etc.
Posted by Zoe Brain, Friday, 4 April 2014 11:50:00 AM
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It is outrageous that the government should keep records about our sex-organs in the first place!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 4 April 2014 11:50:32 AM
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>>"The integrity of historical facts recorded on birth certificates is crucial to good administration. Common sense, as well as accepted record-keeping practices, suggest that a Birth Certificate should accurately reflect a person's sex at the time of birth."

Why? The only reason I can see for a Birth Certificate is as part of an Audit trail verifying current details - in which case it must be kept strictly confidential, and certainly never used as an Identity document to determine who one's parents are, or what your name or sex is, etc.

Unfortunately, Birth Certificates have been used historically as a current ID document - which is why we have "kludges" like altering them in case of adoption, or transsexual transition.

Some need to be changed anyway for accuracy. The details may be misrecorded, or the assumption of sex based on superficial appearance may be erroneous. Transsexuals are born with mixed anatomy.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.
--Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

If we went by neuro-anatomy, then trans people would have been accurately recorded as the sex they say they are.

Some humans also naturally change sex from appearance at birth for example. See http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

The author, an obviously competent administrator, unfortunately has some very fundamental misconceptions about biology - something he admits is possible. Hence his incisive and logical but erroneous conclusions based on fatally flawed premises.

The example I gave of natural sex change is 5ARD syndrome. 17BHSD has similar effects. 3BHSD can cause a change either way, but usually before birth.

I have 3BHSD. Trying to get my identity documents correct and consistent has been a lengthy struggle, not over yet, as more laws have to be corrected first. It took a 20 month legal fight just to get a passport of any kind.
Posted by Zoe Brain, Friday, 4 April 2014 12:01:59 PM
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Zoe

While I agree with some of what you say, I think you are mostly just muddying the waters.

In a one page article, I think I had little choice but to keep matters simple, especially a passing reference to biology. The fact is that for in excess of 99% of people, the presence or otherwise of a Y chromosome determines whether a person is male or female. I acknowledge the existence of rare genetic conditions but this is irrelevant to my main point.

The main issue is whether the details on a birth certificate, if correctly recorded in the first instance, should be changed when a person in adulthood undergoes a sex change procedure. My view is that a birth certificate should only be changed if a mistake has been made in completing the original certificate, and that the event of sex change surgery should be reflected in a different public record with an appropriate (later) date. For those transsexuals who had previously been married and had children, a revised birth certificate (showing their altered sex) would potentially cause confusion in other registers.

When a person gets divorced, you don't pretend that they were never married by removing the record of their marriage. Similarly sex change surgery does not alter the fact of a person previously living life as a member of a different sex.
Posted by Bren, Friday, 4 April 2014 2:10:03 PM
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Dear Zoe,

It is very sad indeed that you were prevented from leaving the country for 20 months, yet the root of the problem is that they don't allow you to move freely from one place to another without recording your intimate details. What genitals and chromosomes you have or don't have should have never been anybody else's business.

Same for marriage: whether you are or were married is your private/religious business and should never be recorded by the government either.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 4 April 2014 2:56:17 PM
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Zoe,
Has Norrie May Welby ever stated that he has any of the above conditions? As far as I can tell his choices are based on "feelings", not a medical condition and that's the issue which is bothering a lot of people. The answer to why LGBTI people are prone to make a scene over their sense of identity and start making demands is usually "because feelings" and the prevailing mood among the general population is that while people with genuine medical needs should be assisted wherever possible the whimsical or eccentric choices of otherwise medically fit people should not be validated or facilitated by the state.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 4 April 2014 4:10:24 PM
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Bren - two issues:

First, if there's even one person in the whole country where the law contradicts reality, then the law is wrong.

Second - I've shown within the 350 word limit that trans people were born the sex they say they were. If records are to be accurate, they must be updated to reflect the true biological situation. By all means keep an audit trail, but such a trail has to be strictly private. Either the birth certificate is an ID document reflecting current data, or it's a secret only used in auditing by court order or by security organisations.

My UK birth certificate says "boy". The UK Gender Recognition Act requires a person changing sex to be Transsexual, and *technically* I'm not, I'm Intersex, so not covered. The change was a massive relief though, so in psychological terms, I'm as trans as they come.

Such cases as mine are not hypothetical, unlike fears of fraud. See http://home.vicnet.net.au/%7Eaissg/2010_FamCA_237.pdf

>> For those transsexuals who had previously been married and had children, a revised birth certificate (showing their altered sex) would potentially cause confusion in other registers.

The male reproductive system only requires one partially functioning gland to work, given technical help (biopsy, extraction with syringe etc). The female one is more complex.

Motherhood was never possible for me. Fatherhood was - just - with technical help - despite my being female. That's reality. The bureaucratic regulations must adjust to my son's existence. They are supposed to be our servants, not our masters.

I do feel I should apologise for being so much trouble - but it's not as if I had a choice here.
Posted by Zoe Brain, Friday, 4 April 2014 4:25:26 PM
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Hi Brendan, If you are going to refer to chromosome content, then you need to keep in mind that as well as XX [female] and XY [male], there is a bewildering array of other chromosomal irregularities.
These include X0 and Y0 [no second chromosome], XYY, XXY and XXX.
While these are rare to extremely rare, there are nevertheless large numbers of them worldwide. There is, as far as I recall, a very weak numerical link [not strong enough to be statistically significant] between XYY and higher levels of criminality.
The simplistic "vagina = girl" or "penis = boy" birth classification falls over when chromosomes are studied.
Posted by Brian of Buderim, Friday, 4 April 2014 6:27:54 PM
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Brian

I am not denying the existence of either rare chromosomal irregularities or physical conditions that make determination of sex problematic. If these conditions existed at birth, I would not have a problem with the baby's sex being classified as "non-specific" on a Birth Certificate.

What I am opposed to is an untruthful public record.

The realty is that 99% plus of children don't have these issues. Where a person is unambiguously of a given sex at birth and later has a sex change operation, the public record should show just that. Simply changing the birth certificate to give the impression that they were the assumed sex since birth,is inapproprate in such cirumstances.
Posted by Bren, Friday, 4 April 2014 9:00:38 PM
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Jay of Melbourne, are you Bisexual, homosexual, transgender or intersexual, if not, what gives you the right to demean fellow Australians.
When you live one day in their shoes you can comment, otherwise keep your moral/bigotry to yourself.
Posted by Kipp, Friday, 4 April 2014 9:01:06 PM
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Kipp, focus sweetie, the subject is gender, not sex
There's no such thing as variations of sexuality, sexual intercourse is procreation between a male and a female, if a child is the goal or the unintended result of the initmacy then sex has occurred,all other intimate contact is non sexual including where birth control is used by opposite sex couples.
So no, I'm not homo,hetero, bi, queer or anything else, I'm a man who has had sexual intercourse with his wife maybe three or four times resulting in two successful pregnancies but who has engaged with her in other intimate activity, lovemaking if you will, on countless other occasions over the past 25 years.
Have you ever had sexual intercourse?
You're just playing the Leftist strawman game, if you'd followed my posts you'd know I've reversed by thinking on same sex weddings and that I've never had a problem with Queers, Gays or any other sub culture..it's your politics which is the problem.
What's notable though is that through it's agitation your side is adept at gaining the opposite result to it's stated goals, the way things are going there will be no socially acceptable recognition of "sexuality" or "marriage" as you define it.
Who are we to judge right? OK, there's no such thing a variation or orientation of sexuality so I can't judge you on any fundamental or personal quality and I assert no "right' to do so, lest I look a fool. Let's just say we'll not judge you on the colour of your g-string or the hammer and sickle printed thereon but by the content of your character. We good old cobber?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 4 April 2014 9:55:58 PM
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It takes you more than three paragraphs, to say that your bigotry is right.
Studies have shown that antigay persons are inclined to be latent homosexuals themselves.
Posted by Kipp, Friday, 4 April 2014 10:05:23 PM
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Kipp,labels, labels...
Which studies show that there's a connection between being Gay and being a bigot? Links please?
Zoe Brain was educating us about the medical conditions which cause the human body to change or develop differently, there's no medical evidence which explains why people are Gay so why are you even on this thread? Is Norrie Gay by your standards of proof? Is Zoe?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 5 April 2014 5:44:57 AM
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...There is one redemptive feature I will acknowledge as a positive with your contributions to OLO KIPP; you are very entertaining and very consistent!

...And so, with all opinions, consistency does not always equate to bigotry (surely); would you agree using your example of consistency?
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 6 April 2014 8:50:09 AM
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It's amusing isn't it Dan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNfrNGdgxs&feature=kp
In a society where you have a whole week of festivities devoted to celebrating your Gayness and you can get a well paid gig on TV just because you're a screaming fairy with a Twitter account these angst ridden "latent homosexuals" still choose to stay in the closet as undercover "bigots". Does that fit the world as we know it?
Hey for what it's worth Gays are often bullies as teenagers, my friends Gay brother was the biggest thug at school, he used to brand other kids "poofters" and get everyone else to ostracise them. Thing is, he never hid his "dark side", like all Gays he's as callous and cruel a person now as he was at sixteen, turns out he was being buggered by a much older man the whole time, that tends to toughen a boy up.
Required reading for all parents of Gay boys:
The Unbearable Sleaziness of Being (a Gay Man) by Professor R.O Lopez.

http://englishmanif.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/la-joie-de-vivre-16-unbearable.html
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 6 April 2014 11:28:47 AM
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