One can question the concept of national self-determination. It means that a nation is set up up on the basis of a particular religious, ethnic or racial identity as the paradigm for the state. As a consequence those citizens of the state who do not share that identity are second-class citizens. If Australia became a Christian state a Jew would become a second-class citizen. There are too many countries in the world representing ethnic nationalism. These countries IMHO are incompatible with democracy. A democratic country must have separation of religion and state and make no distinctions among its citizens on the basis of religion or ethnicity. A Palestinian state would almost certainly be Muslim and ban Jews. It would be less democratic than Israel. Australia with chaplains in the public schools and tax money going to support sectarian schools in undemocratic. I favour democracy in Australia and everywhere else. Perhaps democracy is impractical at this time in Australia and the Middle East. If so let us recognise it.

Self-determination is based on a group united by bonds of religion or ethnicity. Democracy requires that the state not discriminate on the basis of ethnicity or religion. Democracy and national self-determination are incompatible. Israel can be either a democracy or a Jewish state. It cannot be both.

A couple of questions:
For the author, why would a one-state solution mean racially stereotyping all Israeli Jews as inherently evil oppressors?
And for david f, why would a Palestinian state almost certainly be Muslim and ban Jews?
A united Palestine/Israel would be close enough to an even split between Muslims and Jews. After hopefully getting rid of the inherited weapons of mass destruction, why wouldn't they settle down and work out how to live together? They are, after all, brothers and sisters from one family with the shared faith of monotheism.

The author regards "continued demands for a so-called
Right of Return of 1948 refugees to Green Line Israel
rather than to the Palestinian Territories" as a
significant Palestinian barrier to peace.

Why shouldn't instead the Israeli refusal of this demand
be described as a significant Israeli barrier to peace?

The question is whether such a demand is reasonable or not.
And I have yet to understand how any decent human being can think
that it is reasonable that people should be expelled/excluded from
where they and their ancestors have always lived solely on account
of which religious group they belong to.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it has to be a duck?
If it acts, thinks and does like an oppressor nation, then it just has to be an oppressor nation!
All that seems to be missing, to the outside and entirely impartial international observer, is the Jackboots and SS insignia.
Rhrosty.

"This means racially stereotyping all Israeli Jews as an inherently evil oppressor nation,"

Similar to the way in which the White supremacist oligarchs of the South African apartheid regime were racially stereotyped--I'm appalled, it's just so unfair.
If Jews are members of a "race" then Zionism is, by inference, a racist ideology.

But Philip, Israel is a brutal occupying oppressor, the population doing the oppressing are jews, ergo the fact is not open to dispute that Israel proper is a jewish oppressor.

There is one other fundamental obstacle to peace - the Palestinian leadership has continuously and persistently educated the Palestinian people to reject the concept of 2 states side by side with mutual security. Official Palestinian Authority actions denigrate Jews, deny Jewish heritage, and claim entitlement to the whole of the land west of the Jordan River. (If you doubt me, have a look at the Palestinian Media Watch website) Until this changes, peace has little chance.

Likely no one can bring peace to the Middle-East. It needs to be accepted that war there will probably go on for centuries still, sometimes openly sometimes smouldering.

Regardless, perhaps even more so, Israel's moral foundation is at risk and has been deteriorating since 1967. The Arabs tricked Israel into swallowing the poison of the occupied territories, especially the so-called "holy places" of the West-Bank and Jerusalem: now they only need to sit and wait for Israeli society to fall apart by itself and lose the will to survive (their foolish armed-resistance only works against them, delaying this!).

This is why BDS has value unrelated to the 'peace-process', unrelated to the Arab/Palestinian desire to destroy Israel: BDS is also applied by Jewish groups and other friends of Israel in attempt to bring Israel back to its senses. Even if the war goes on, even if Palestinians never except Israel's existence, Israel itself will be stronger and morally viable without those territories and the 'holy-places' therein. Thus this is a worthwhile internal Jewish/Israeli campaign.

But Philip, Israel is a brutal occupying oppressor,
Marylin Shepherd,
would you then excuse the Nazis ?

Quite and entertaining read although Mr Mendes is clearly not writing about the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign at http://www.bdsmovement.net/BNC#.TuWldkrXOF0 or else he is maliciously misrepresenting it.

Those who oppose BDS are reluctant to discuss its second claim - the need for an end to discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel. Perhaps Mr Mendes could explain why Israeli citizens who lost homes and property in 1948 are not allowed to return to these former homes? Could he explain why the state continues to confiscate the property of its Palestinian citizens as is currently happening under the Prawer Plan for the Negev?

halduell wrote:

And for david f, why would a Palestinian state almost certainly be Muslim and ban Jews?

Dear halduell,

Many of the Palestinian authority refuse to meet with Jews or Israelis.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3783/palestinians-no-jews-allowed

"In yet another recent incident, a Palestinian Authority ministry instructed its guards to "prevent Jewish reporters" from attending an event in Ramallah.

It is not clear at this stage if the Palestinian Authority leadership is behind the boycott of Jews and Israelis who seek to meet with its representatives.

What is clear is that Palestinian Authority officials do not hesitate to state in public that they do not want to meet with any Jew or Israeli."

Presumably if the Palestinians got a state their attitudes towards Jews would be the same. There has been a steady decline in the Christian Arab population in areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority. It is unlikely that Christians will be invited back if the Palestinians get statehood. Eliminate Jews and Christians in the area, and Muslims will be the only religious group left.

Halduell:
“They are, after all, brothers and sisters from one family with the shared faith of monotheism.”

Anyone with any knowledge of Islam knows that there is NO room for any other religion alongside Islam, except in a Dhimmi state (of servitude). If you know so little about the background of the current situation, please google Islam and read a bit about it before you reveal your naivety.

Jeremy:
“And I have yet to understand how any decent human being can think
that it is reasonable that people should be expelled/excluded from
where they and their ancestors have always lived solely on account
of which religious group they belong to.”

Jeremy, what about the 800,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries the day that the modern State of Israel was declared? Do they have right of return to Iraq, Iran, Yemen, and others? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Marilyn Shepherd:
“But Philip, Israel is a brutal occupying oppressor, the population doing the oppressing are jews, ergo the fact is not open to dispute that Israel proper is a jewish oppressor.”

Marilyn, both Gaza and the so-called West Bank are self-ruled since Israel vacated in 2007. The residents are certainly oppressed – by Hamas and the PA – who instead of using the billions of $s in financial aid they receive each year from the world (incl Australia) on hospitals, schools and building infrastructure to end the miserable conditions the Palestinians live in, spend the money on rockets to fire into Israel and on building tunnels into Israeli kibbutzes for the purpose of abducting Israeli citizens to ransom them to release more Palestinian terrorists. Who’s the oppressor?

Yuyutsu said:
“This is why BDS has value unrelated to the 'peace-process', unrelated to the Arab/Palestinian desire to destroy Israel: BDS is also applied by Jewish groups and other friends of Israel in attempt to bring Israel back to its senses. Even if the war goes on, even if Palestinians never except Israel's existence, Israel itself will be stronger and morally viable without those territories and the 'holy-places' therein. Thus this is a worthwhile internal Jewish/Israeli campaign."

Yuyutsu, the BDS campaign isn’t ‘applied’ by Jewish groups and friends of Israel – they are the minority. The majority of Jews in Israel and worldwide are vehemently opposed to BDS.
The sole purpose of the BDS campaign is the delegitimization and destruction of the Jewish state. What is worthwhile about that (unless you’re anti-Semitic)? In the process, 1,000s of Palestinian workers in Israel and the so-called “West Bank” are harmed, as they make up the bulk of the workers in the factories producing the goods that are being boycotted. Where’s the value in that?

As far as Israel is concerned, it doesn’t want to keep any of the territories (hence already gave back Gaza) as it doesn’t need to inherit another 1.2M Arab residents. Israel offered to give back 97% of the land won back in the 1967 war – Arafat and all Palestinian leaders since then refused, and continue to refuse. Even Jerusalem, the holiest city to all 3 major religions, when it was under Arab rule (before 1967) was barred to Christians and Jews – till now, the Dome of the Rock is barred to any but Moslems. Where is the equity in that? The situation is deplorable but the BDS aside from being a sensationalist propaganda machine, serves no use at all.

Palestinians coming to the table and offering peace would serve a purpose. Is the BDS movement proposing that??

Dear Sabra,

I know it's an unholy alliance, but if it helps to bring Israel back to its senses, then it must be.

Yes, Palestinian factory-workers would lose their jobs: too bad - when the priority is to save Israel from moral extinction, those Palestinians who cooperate with the settlers may have to suffer. Israel cannot afford to sacrifice its integrity for those few 1000s (perhaps it should compensate them financially instead).

You claim that Israel does not want to keep any of the territories - then why does it stay there?!

You know just as well that Palestinians WILL NOT be coming to the table and offer peace, that even if they do it will only be a show, a tactic, a 'Hudna' until such time they feel strong enough again to try to win the land over and throw the Jews to the sea.

Given that, Israel must consider its own good and its own internal affairs without recourse to false hopes. Rather than wait for Palestinian cooperation, it should take its fate in its own hands and simply get out of those cursed territories.

While it is unlikely that Israel will have peace with the Palestinians, it can thus make peace with itself and with the rest of the world, then start on the road to recovery from this 46-year poisoning.

As for security, once Israel is united within and respected among the international community, it can rebuild the wall over its 1967 borders, then make it clear with the backing of the whole world that any trespassing into its own territory after its withdrawal will be met with such harsh, horrific and extreme measures that the Arabs should not even contemplate such actions. Sure, they will still not recognise Israel, but none of them will dare to attack a unified and morally-strong Israel that is sovereign within internationally recognised and protected borders.

Yuyutsu, you're almost on the right track. Israel DOES want to give back all the territories - both Gaza and the West Bank are self-determined, Gaza ruled by the terrorist organisation HAMAS, and WB by the morally & financially corrupt Palestinian Authority. Israel will give back 97% of the territories in exchange for peace. Where's the peace offer?

As you say, Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution, they want Israel in the sea and no Jews in the Middle East - despite the fact that there are 40 billion Arabs in 42 countries surrounding the tiny sliver that is Israel with its miniscule 8M people (2M of which are Arab or Christian).

Most people don't realise that Israel is 1/3 the size of Tasmania. Is it a question of land? I DON'T THINK SO!

Dear Sabra,

If Israel DOES want to give back all the territories, then why doesn't it do so?

A sane person who wants to leave a place, just does so and certainly wouldn't invest more in it instead.
If Israel were sane and truly didn't want to hold onto those territories, then it would not build more settlements in the West-Bank and expand the existing ones; or a wall in the middle of it rather than over its border.

But Israel is not sane - Israel is under the influence of poison. That occupation has numbed its sense of direction.

Enough focusing on Arabs and THEIR problems as lame excuses - Israel needs help. The world needs to show it the direction for its own healing, which is westward, not eastward.

Yuyutsu, I have other things to do than correspond with you forever on this topic. Just one final reply to respond to your suggestion that Israel just get on with it and "move out", and that is: WE DID!

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2007 (ie, without a peace agreement or any kind of agreement from the other side - which is what you're suggesting we do again now) and look what HAMAS, the Palestinian leaders, did! Instead of using Israel's aid to build hospitals, schools and infrastructure to improve Palestinian life, HAMAS attacked Israel with 1000's of rockets and has never stopped. So where did that magnanimous gesture lead? Absolutely nowhere!

Whatever land (the 3%) Israel is still trying to hold onto is to assure her security (11km between the West Bank and the Mediterranean at Israel's narrowest point - you try feeling secure with those kind of borders). I really truly and honestly recommend that you do a helluva lot more research before you continue to make recommendations which bigger & better minds than yours have thought of, long before you!

Dear Sabra,

Israel was prematurely stopped from completing its retaliatory operations in Gaza.
Militarily, it had no difficulty destroying every building there and killing every single man with connections to Hamas, including anyone who happens to be in their vicinity.
The Gazans however, could expect in advance Israel to be stopped, or else they wouldn't dare shoot their rockets across.

The reason Israel was stopped by the world, time and again, is that is still holds the West Bank, thus still considered an occupier and pariah-state by the rest of the world.

Had it not been the case, had Israel been considered a normal and legitimate state like Australia, then Israel could do just what Australia would have done if someone dared to attack it with rockets. Nobody would have stopped Australia from annihilating its attackers outright (if only we had the appropriate weapons, of course, which Israel has).

Thus Israel should leave the West Bank under agreement, but not a phoney agreement with the Palestinians - rather an agreement with the rest of the world (represented by the UN security council) that grants it "normalhood", that allows it to do, without interference, just what any other country would have done if attacked.

As for the land, that 3% that Israel is still trying to hold onto, that has nothing to do with security, but with the fact that it contains the biggest concentration of settlers and 'holy-places'. That is the most toxic 3% of that cursed territory, small in size - big in venom.

Philip, Menzies, you have been debunked on this very issue before, let me help you once again.

Most people are not in favour of a two state solution because most of us favour "democratic states".

Israelis will eventually participate in a political environment where each citizen of the unified region will enjoy one single vote of equal and unbiased value.

If the Zionists will not accept then there will have to be a partition.

The minimum conditions of such a partition were set out under agreement at the Oslo accord, rejected by Israel at the continued violence and aggression which will continue, and will even increase, until they are accepted or until a single state evolves.

Here is a summary of those acceptable terms:-

1- The Palestinian state MUST be a contiguous state joining up the West Bank and Gaza
2- The Palestinian state must have an Arab border all around it, not an Israeli one
3- The Palestinian lands must be shorn of all illegal Zionist settlements except where those settlements were legitimately PURCHASED from their original owners.
4- The Palestinian lands must be shorn of ALL Israeli military facilities and camps. International military guarantees that there will be no military excursions by IDF cadres in the Palestinian state.
5- East Jerusalem must be it's capital with the Dome of the Rock - not some suburb that you're going to magically call "Jerusalem" - the Palestinian flag must fly from the roof of the AlAqsa Mosque.
6- All the Palestinian refugees must have their right to return to their homes and their lands from which they were driven by military force and terror - by the terrorist gangs of The Stern Gang and the Irgun and other Zionist terrorists. The Palestinians must have their homes and their lands back.

If the two state solution is not based on the above minimum core terms there will be no peace in Israel/Palestine and the Israeli population, will be forced to accept less favourable terms as was the fate of the recalcitrant white apartheid supporters of apartheid South Africa.

Good luck Philip!

welcome..אמורא אחרון

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15688&page=0

May..His..great name....[i_am*,]..be exalted
and..sanctified..is G*d*s..great-name.[i*am]

a Yitgaddal veyitqaddash shmeh rabba

2..in..the world..which..*He created..according..to His will!
3..May He establish..*His peace-full/loving kingdom..again..[in..the hearts of men.]

4..and may His..[gifted promise..of ever present eternalliving loving being..bring atonement/salvation..let..]..salvation blossom and His anointed..[inspirit]..be bought near.

5..during your lifetime..and during your days
6..and..during the lifetimes..of all the House of Israel,

<<a term..that traditionally..*implies..the reward/
*for piety,..good deeds,.*and charitable work...>

NOT..eternal_war?

7..speedily..and very soon!
And say,.Amen.

AHH..men

The next..two lines..are recited
by..the congregation..and then..the
leader:..[who shall..serve..you]

8..May His..great name..[i*am]..that../i\am..is being..
with-in..every living-being..]..[be]..

simply by being..the being..god
willed..its..being..into being]..be blessed..

9..for ever,..and in-to..all eternity!

10..Blessed..and praised,..glorified..and exalted,
simply..by loving other.

11..extolled..and honoured,..adored and lauded
12..be the..PRESENT/presence*..of the Holy One,..[bblessed be He,,by..we],

13..above and beyond..all the blessings,
14..hymns, praises and consolations
creed/rite/ritual/protestations

15..that are uttered..into..his words..thus..into the world!

by..blessings upon..him..ye bring blessing..upon..you
by..blessing..of*..other begets/the blessing..upon him..for who..the blessing..is..long..over due

by/simply blessing..thy brother
ye*bring blessings..upon all of we

ME
WE

in..his/mirror..image..are we..created
by..our form..is his form..fully filled

And so..it is we..
who say,..Amen.

AHHHH..men

The half..kaddish/divisions/dire-risions..ends here...[hear
its pollite..not to talk..in tongues..before guests.

Here..the.."complete kaddish"..includes:

16..May..the prayers..works..and..supplications..KEY*

17..of..all Israel
the reward*..for piety,..good deeds,..and..charitable work...>>KEY*

18..be accepted..by..OUR..Father[of all/living]....who is to..gather..us..all..in Heaven;s..eternal

And say,..Ahh..men.
[do..ye wish..to try living..without me..yet again]

Here..the.."kaddish/of..the rabbis"
(including..the kaddish..after..a siyum)..includes:

19..To Israel,..to the Rabbis..and..their disciples
20..to the..disciples..of their disciples,
21/and..to all..those who engage..in..the study
of..the Torah..and not of..the laws of war*

YOU..who....have adopted..as..a state-symbol
the menorah..(candlebrum).

<<..which is explained..in the Tenach..
(on..the occasion of..a previous return..to the Holy Land).

as,WRITTEN

*"not..with..*armed force*..and..not with power,*....*KEY*
but..*in My spirit..says..the..Lord of Hosts.">>

says..the host*..of lords

see..how we/can..hold..two
incorrect..*ideas..[see previous-post]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15341

22/in this..[holy]z place
or..in any*..other place,

23/may*..there come..abundant peace,
24/grace,..loving kindness .nd compassion, long life
25/ample..sustenance joy..plenty..mercy and salvation

26/from..the Father..who is..eternal..even..in heaven
(and..in/embodiment..here..on/earth);
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176201

27/and say,..Ahh..men.
continued..
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176201

DID..you..know..
zionist=jewish athiesm?
[a god-free..israel/that-alone-explains..all the death*]

phylip..quote..<<..There are plenty of actions that genuine supporters of Israeli-Palestinian peace and reconciliation can take to progress their agenda...>>

the biggest is..learly..separating religious/extremists..from the atheist..WAR_MONGERS..wanting a 'secular'.. state...thus..ignore god gave the land..and instead..got it fromthe brits..get..israel from men..instead..of god..plus..lorded/ ruled by..mens law..and mens war

lol..isnt it gods holy land?
we need sort the religious nutters into..the same state
and let the zion..rule beyond this god delusion[the wolves cant act ;like lambs of god]..so sort em..out

what i..dont get..is why all the religious symbolism's
if zionist..jew..mean's atheist....jew..[too]

i..cant see..children of god..carrying guns

thats the dividing line//guns..
surrounded by peace-nic..religious nutters..*unarmed

<<..suggest a practical and detailed pathway for achieving a two-state solution...These activities and proposals are the opposite of the path of enmity..and hate favored by the BDS movement...>>

i just want peace/now..
may satan take anyone..with a gun

how can..any..god believer
could..think..the life-GIVER..is pleased..with any death

YOU..who....have adopted..as..a state-symbol
the menorah..(candlebrum).

<<..which is explained..in the Tenach..
(on..the occasion of..a previous return..to the Holy Land).

as,WRITTEN

*"not..with..*armed force*..and..not with power,*....*KEY*
but..*in My spirit..says..the..Lord of Hosts.">>

says..the host*..of lords

see..how we/can..hold..two
incorrect..*ideas..[see previous-post]