What is this supposed to be, Peter -- an anthology of tweets? This is even less coherent than your usual efforts. And you still haven't got over that annoying tendency to say 'we' when you mean 'me'.

I agree that most modern art is crap. But throughout history most art has been crap, religiously-inspired or otherwise; we're just in the fortunate position of having forgotten all the bad stuff. And again, I'd love to see how you explain Hokusai and Praxelites from your bizarre standpoint that all great art arises in the Christian tradition.

"Does this not explain so much in our culture; the noise and the money, the blandness and boredom and worse, the absence of hope?"

I have plenty of hope. If you don't that's YOUR problem. I hope, for instance, that one day soon articles like this will be universally recognised as the drivelling nonsense they are.

Peter,

"It is now a long time since artists proclaimed that their work was "To the glory of God.

But what other kind of art is there? Strictly speaking there is no other kind, there is only the pretence of art."

I'd be interested in what you think of this:

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/Poirot4/media/fc6e26aa.jpg.html

It's a drawing I did in for a friend to render his ideas in image.

It's not to the glory of God.

More, it's a rendering of man's conundrum - his reality amidst his ideas.

I would consider it "art", because there is a message beyond its imagery. Make of it what you will, it's designed to make you think, but more on man's condition methinks than any truth regarding God.

What happens when The Very Divine Person becomes an artist - specialising in abstract art, who also pointed out that ALL visual representation is an exercise in abstraction, even photography.
Some references by and about His art.

There is of course no objective world apart from the process of perception involving light, the mechanisms of the eye, and the brain.

http://www.adidaupclose.org/Art_and_Photography/rebirth_of_sacred_art.html

Artists statement

http://www.aboutadidam.org/readings/transcending_the_camera/index.html

The Realization of The Beautiful
http://www.adidamla.org/newsletters/newsletter-aprilmay2006.pdf

Plus this reference too which is an introduction to The Orpheum Trilogy

http://www.adidaupclose.org/Literature_Theater/skalsky.html

"I hope, for instance, that one day soon articles like this will be universally recognised as the drivelling nonsense they are," says Jon.

I agree with you, Jon. Such articles have no place in intelligent forums.

"The dichotomy of the real and the ideal coincides with the creedal language of the visible and the invisible."

It's really the dichotomy of the ideal and the alleged.

The history is somewhat visible, and increasingly so as more people delve into early Christian history; but the basis for the claims of reality are less visible.

Such arrogance.

"The filiation of the ideal and the real results in theological language; the only language that is capable of truth since truth exists only when the ideal and the real are integrated."

Theological language is the only language capable of truth?

Tosh.

Another load of pseudo mystical hogwash from Sells. I frankly admit to giving up about halfway through, although I will comment that Ockham's razor can best be presented simply in the form that:
'the most simple or obvious explanation consistent with the known facts is the explanation most likely to be correct'
It is ironic that this medieval churchman gave rationalists one of their most devastating weapons against the sort of rubbish presented in this article.

This book The World As Light also introduces Adi Da's Art
http://global.adidam.org/books/world-as-light

Some quotes from the book:

1. Reality has no "thing" in it, no "other" in it, no separate "self" in it, no ideas, no constructs of mind or perception, and, altogether, no "point of view".
2. The irreducible paradox of unobservability and unknowability is the actual real state of every one and every thing.

These paragaphs describe how seemingly objective things are constructed out of three primary geometric forms, as suggested by Cezanne. Adi Da first came across thus understanding via doing the Learning To Draw with Jon Nagy course when he was a boy. Nagy's method was inspired by Cezanne's insight.

"The force of primary geometric forms is everywhere in the world. It is simply that there are so many intersections of primary geometric forms in ordinary perceived reality that it feels as if you cannot see the primary form. It is not that that perceived reality is made out of "four circles" and "three rectangles" and "two triangles" - you cannot see the world that simplistically. But, once you begin to "get" the sense of "shape", then you can see that the world of perception is actually made of primary geometries. It is just that there are so many of them all at once that the natural world seems to have "feathered edges". The natural world does not seem to be hard-edged, in terms of geometry. In fact, the natural world is NOT visible hard edged - when the multiples are in billions, trillions, countless numbers all at once. Then the world of perception has the kind of "feathered edges" you apparently see in the natural world.

Thus, the basis of the natural world's construction is primary shape, primary geometry, elemental shape - circular, linear, angular. Everything is one of those three - curved, strictly linear, or angled. The intersection of these three modes of geometry makes virtually every shape. If you take enough triangles, squares, and circles, any form will appear. You put them together in certain conjunctions, and they will make absolutely every form".

Although Sells pretends to be religious his world-view is obviously completely circumscribed or limited by the reductionist doubt-filled mind-set described in these two references.
http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/nirvanasara/chapter1.html
Originally titled The Psychosis of Doubt
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/gnosticon/universal-scientism

All art whatever the seeming subject, including what is usually called religious is an auto-biographical description of the person who creates it - with NO exceptions.

These 2003 describe describe the Process that Adi Da had to go through so as to be able to create His Divine Image Art in its later and final forms.

" In the traditional setting, sacred art is understand as a Spiritual discipline, not merely a technical or a cultural endeavor in the conventional sense. There are many profound requirements - not only artistic requirements, but also requirements related to Spiritual life.
There are esoteric profundities associated with sacred art - profound training, profound readiness, a profound life that has to be lived before you ever do anything to show to anybody else.
Sacred art is not just a kind of subject matter. To be an artist in the sacred sense is a profoundly different matter than being an artist in either the secular or conventionally "religious" sense. Sacred art is not ego-art - and, therefore, it takes a lifetime of work.
I Myself have engaged a lifetime of Work, in which I have been occupied with art, as well as other aspects of the totality of what I do. And it at this point in My Life that I am prepared to make Works for showing, having done it and considered it since I was a child. So, in this respect, I am functioning very much in the mode of the traditional artist within a sacred circumstance."

Healso pointed out that even the showing of sacred art should only be done within the context of an integrated sacred culture. Otherwise what is being communicated will not be understood and thus to one degree another be degraded and banal-ized. Of course there is no such sacred culture in the Western world, nor even a living Spiritual tradition - just spirit-killing left-brained words.

Unlike other posters so far, I really enjoyed this article - a deft and insightful exploration of the relationship between cultural, ideological and theological aspects of realism/idealism, and their links to the roots of fundamentalisms.

Poirot
I like your drawing. I think your description of man’s conundrum – reality amidst ideas – is actually quite close to what Peter’s article is about.

Daffy Duck has a point about geometry and its subliminal ingestion.

Islamic art celebrates basic geometry, especially in mosque decoration in its quest to give glory to God.

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2008/oct/28/islamic-art

Even in the atomic world of chemistry, it appears to be replicated - quasicrystals:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-05/atomic-mosaic-wins-chemistry-nobel/3310930

.........

Thanks Rhian...you have a point, yet art need not be aimed to the glory of God, and yet still have meaning and be pertinent to human experience.

where art..thou..god
in every breath..in every whisper
in..every being..all seeing/all being

peter/quote....<<..language
that is not formed..from the awareness..of the visible
..and the visible..is not language at all..but inarticulate groaning>>

yes..you told me..as/much
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15341&page=0.

yet not here..where it would count
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

nor here..
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0
where i already replied
*this topic..in two posts

and we each..have 8
to fully debate/relate

you said..<<.Evangelism..consists
in coaching people..to see the invisible..in the visible.>>

yes the unseen cause..of life
able to be known..by knowing living
the selfless servant..the most..[great nurture/nature/father

the mosyt..
yet..the SUSTAINING..to live..even..the least/beast

<<.The decline..of the authority..>>

origonates from secrets[see other posts]

auth/decline..<<of the church..is
the result of..the church's/failure..to do this.>>

there is yet time

<<..All..we can say..to modernity is:
there,..do you see?..Can you make*..the connection
that St. Paul makes..when he sees..that there is more..nailed to the cross...than the body of Jesus?>>..

paulwas one sickpuppy
he hopunde..the living christ..right?
then obscured his gospil..withhis owenletters/acts
that created creed..bah..saulpaul..he peed onchrist..but you fail tosee hanginng corpses..is what demons do*

they alsodrink wine
eat holy meat*

by their works..will you know/them

<<..Do you see..that Christ is..with us still
in the logic..of the triune God?>>

that trible bible stuff

peeter..think
emmanuel..what mmeans this?

GOD..with us*
not jesus..not just in..his sun

but..iN/..with-in..everyone[whois not a child of the father?

jesus taught*
paul..polluted the well..with creed

<<..Do you see..how the ideal
and the real..are held together..in Him?>>

yes..in god..ALONE*[forget the imagry rule too]
[ye will have no-one..before god..remember?}
who..holds us ALL*..together..
BY gods grace

<<..The greatest curse..that the prophet
can summon up..is that the eye.. and the ears
of an unfaithful/people..be stopped.;.so that they will no longer see nor hear.>>

often..they cant cope
withthe stuff they saw/heard

<<..Is this not..a description/of..our time?>>
no..we can finally talk direct..to..our betters

<<..Does this not explain..so much..in our culture;>>

top/down
has failed,,us all

<<..the noise..and the money,>>
<<..the blandness..and boredom>>
<<..and worse,..the absence of hope?>>

no
you shall HEAR..of warts
and rumors of wars/warts and all
then..as christ said..the good awake..to/do better

peter..<<..the ideal..the meaning/of..those events.>>

must be in..context..of the creeds..of their times

take the feeding..on/the mount
following the canna wedding/before the shew bread..

ie..the hanwash jars..
[you cant eat with..*unclean-hands]

so they were much/like a toilet
[could you serve thy..maders guests..
even..the very best of wine..FROM A TOILET?
[neither did his servants..[but the disciple..*needed to see a.."miracle"

his diciples..didnt know this LAW*..

so..WHEN..christ fed..the 4000/5000..twice..
[all*..they wished]..to eat [lol..note the clever seating,,oppisite..watching..just..to see/report..on..who would eat..

with..all..their judges
sitting opposite them
also..WITH..UNCLEAN..HANDS..

[recall..his diciples..eating shew bread
/with unclean hands..[and chist replied..its NOT..what a man puts IN..but what blasphemy..but that whichissues forth fromit..

falls out..via our smallest/member

the disciples..were too busy eating..to notice
the teaching by christ..of the DANGER of creed

yet plenty..put in..food
they saved..[its about how EVEN..the living christ..couldnt/break CREED*

mirracles creed/greed and such..<<..This meant
that Scripture..could not wander off..into a fantasy world
that was disconnected..from the real>>

unless they were tricked..
by..him who HOUNDED..the living christ..unto death..[paul/saul]

<<..and the real..could not be celebrated
at the expense..of the ideal..as is the case..in our time with scientific or economic rationalism.>>

big words
big talk..lets talk about works/perks

science reveals gods glory
science cant even make a cell-membrain
life comes ONLY..fromlife..[the best science could do..is suckout the dna..from a LIVING bacteria..toCL:AIM/faulsly..they 'creayted//that only god could create

rot-ionalism?
rat/nationalism?

<<..The New Testament..follows this ethos
most notably..in the incarnation...>>

rational?

<<..For in ..the incarnation
the Word..(idea) becomes flesh>>

ONLY..by works..SILLY

FLESH..IS NOT..THE<<(real thing).>>
its nothingbut the seen..that hides the unseen

<<.The council of Chalcedon..insisted
that Christ..had two natures,..>>as do we ALL*

<<..the divine/and the human...
(ideal and real).>>

ahhhmen..eh
meme/mene..tell..peter..
the writing..is on the wall*

lets talk

peter..<<..The elements..of the Mass
are at once bread..and wine..>>

do..you/know the booze related damage?
why turn water into..wine,..[1stmiracle?]

[did/not jesus himself say..
ITS..NOT YET..MY TIME*[in-fact..he would have said
i couldnt careless..if you fed thy*..masters guests..that filthy-toilet water..in those hand-wash/jars..its himand you that willloose face

how gooood the master..
that not feed his own guests
how much..lower..the servants go

if the drunks drunk..all the wine..
they came to the wrong guy..its just not my time
besides at that time..jesus thought..it was to/be john

<<..and..the body
and blood of Christ.>>

ohdear..thats what satanists doi too?
by..their deeds..we see paulene creed has perverted

<<..The central/event
of Christianity..is the death..and resurrection of Christ.>>

yes..what we saw jesus do..[ie return from death]
we all can do..[see the officer/wanderer pdf's]

its the reserction..ol'boy
recall..at the time..dead meant..
waiting till..some future..JUDgement..'day'
jesus refuted..that creed..by.deed..indeed/undead

alive as we speak
in our fathers house

<<The death,..an historical point>..

judgment day..is refuted..rejoice
we ALL*must be born..again

death/point..<<in time..>>

nothe next life is free of time
one long eternalday

death/point..<<is the real
and the resurrection..is the ideal.>>

its assured by christ..HIMSELF..see that ye see me do
ie reserect..you will do greater..no..judgment day

death=resection-day..no waiting
we 'die'..instanntly reborn..some into..the light
others into.. various shades of grey..according to how ashamed we are

<<..These are not separate events;
the resurrection ..is the truth..>>

ABSOLUTLY...except we ALLwill
even..ur pets..ideas..ego

resurrection..revealing all..
<<..of what..is hidden in the crucifixion...>>

death
resection

<<..One cannot exist/without the other.>>

ahhhmenn

peter..<<..In a time..dominated by..the insistence of
the real..>>..

[resection]..<<..above the ideal,..>>
[judgment dfay..when-ever you lot say..is]..

it isnt
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Life_in_the_World_Unseen.pdf

<<..fostered by ..he success..of natural science,>>
see 30 years..among the dead pdf
http://new-birth.net/booklet/30_years_among_the_dead.PDF

<<..the danger to us is blindness.>>

absolutly

<<..We refuse..to countenance \..the invisible
and the world..becomes a world of surfaces,..>>

appearances
never dull/boring..yet..endless

superficial;ity..<<..as wanting of ideas
as an abstract..or photo-realist painting.>>

or pictures
of electro-plasm..aura's
or the prety/perty pictures of science
to...fill in the evolving evolutionary gap/facts..
between science evolutionary/THEORY..and science/falsifiable fact

<..This is how..we can give credence
to a scientism..that reduces the world to causation.>>

lol..by imagery

how goes the LAW..re imagery?
like corpses statues..the ARISEN...christ
eternal tied to his imagery..by pauline..creed/double cross

<<..It is significant..that biblical literalism
has loomed..so large in our time.>>

but god FORBADE ALLIMAGRY
and any/all..ADULTERATION..of his words!

<<...This movement..[pauline creed]..is essentially
a result of a..realist approach to Scripture,..i.e. that all of the events described..therein actually happened.>>

ir READ..the true WITNESS
the true/gospil's..of christ..as witnessed by his works

<<..biblical literalism..is the product
of our modern failure..to hold the visible..and the invisible together.>>..

no/commment

<<>>There is a contradiction ..that runs though
much of late/modern thought...Our minds are not cameras;
as soon as we..*open our eyes>>

after removing..the plank..in our own eyes
not just..offering to remove..the splinter/from..thyne

<<>.we see things..and these things
are automatically..associated with ideas.>>

see natures/nurture
light..sustaining life
that love via logus/logic

see the life revealed
in the light..with love
under eternal grace/mrercy

thats gods idea

see the city/slum/division/derision
thats mans workings

<<..Seeing the visible
and the invisible..is central to our natures.>>

see gods nurture
even in..nature

<<..when we look at..the world
we see the handiwork..of God.>>

now..look with..thy minds eye..
see the..inner/workings of men

remind peter'

the rhyme..of the rosy
to..the primate..of the rosery

What a load of utter rubbish this article is.

There are many, many wonderful artists and art that has nothing to do with invisible beings or fairy tale gods.

One undergod..........sigh...... sometimes, words just escape me when I try to understand posts like these.

i been trying to figure things out too..suze

my latest research
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0

next..the question..i hope to put
to peter..re..Mathew/28/

source=atheist/commentary
http://atheism.about.com/od/biblegospelofmark/a/dating.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/biblegospelofmark/a/mark12d.htm

<<..Mark/gospel..was written..in an environment
where Roman rule..was a constant presence...There are many clear signs that Mark..*has gone to great lengths..to absolve Romans of the responsibility..for Jesus’ death>>

<<..even to the point of..painting Pontius Pilate..as a weak, indecisive leader..rather than the brutal tyrant..that everyone knew him to be.>>

my point..
in quoting this..is to point out
that it waz first written..by say matthew..

but..ENDING..at 28;27..

quote..
<<..[now..i have told you]>>

but also
notice..the later edit..
by same author..at 28;10..

..<<..JESUS said;,,edit
<<..go tell my brothers*..>>

GO TELL..my..BROTHERS*
[the debate was re disciples/preaching]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

now
lets examin..the OTHER word..
replacing mathews word..christ SAID..brothers

ie..the word..[disciple]
first/used in 28;12..

[IS..something..HE COULDNT..bear witness to
because..it was FIRAST used at 28;10..by the..elders..
who met up..with priests..[even then..to fake/up things..

to poison the well..
and introduce creed/diciples etc

via saul/paul/letters
creating..the pauline creed

[the word..*THEY used..was disciples..]
NOT the word..jesus used.."brothers*..[28;10]

ok?
or correct..
where..i went wrong?

Paul's theology..was based on his personal experience ..*
interpreted..in the light of contemporary Greek thought.

The theory of redemption..was the child of his brain,
a belief..entirely unknown..to the disciples of Jesus.

saul..poisons..the well

please recall..

he had just DESTROYED..the davidian/levitic? CREED..
of RESECTION day..plus judgment day
by simply..coming back from death
by this..he destroyed..two creeds

and freed many..awaiting eternity..in limbo

saul..by turning brothers
into...disciples..hung jesus..on a cross..
in his own church..drank chists blood..feasted off \..christs flesh

or as you put it
real/ideal

a true artifice
its basic karmic balance
dualism..to allow freewill/choice
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

because saul..
[paul]..[christs..mortal-enemy]..got on..with the job*

creating creed*..ideal
by creating disciples*..

WHERE clearly..christ..
only had...Brother..ie brothers*
not diciples

its no bother/brother
we need to clear..things up..soon

we need..to find..the passion..to..*FIRST
*rebuild..christs..divided church

[re-unite BY RECOGNIZING..all other..called to christ
all xtian..creed/sects..we must re-unite christs torn divided heart

appointing..all Abrahamic sects priest/teachers/
as respected equals..and their messengers/prophets..all
as saintly elders..each..retaining their own creed./.yet as equal brother

put the true servants..into churches
and the true saints..on churches..not gargoyles

Paul's theory..involved the deification..[imagery/creed]..of Jesus.

The Pauline period..in the history of the Pauline Church
saw a change of scenes..principles..and principals.

In place of brothers paul..made the disciples,
who had sat at the feet of Jesus,

a new figure, who had not known Jesus,
had come to the forefront...

The intellectuals..were under the influence of Aristotle...

Because of Paul's compromise..with Roman beliefs and legend,
Pauline followers grew in number..and grew in strength.

To the soldier prince..the different creeds
within the Jew and Hebrew were very confusing.

In AD 325,..a meeting of all denominations of Paulineism
was called at Nicea (Isnik)...Fearful massacre of Hebrews,..who did not believe in Paulineism, was held,

where it was ordered..*that all original Hebrew script..*should be destroyed,..and in the year 325 A D, this took place at the Nicene Council.

Paul,..also known as Saul,..a zealous Pharisee.

Paul was at first..an active opponent..of the Christian movement.
He took care of..the cloaks of those who stoned Stephen..(Acts 7:58, 22:20).

On his way to Damascus..to persecute Christian believers,..he was stopped..by a blinding light,..and a voice that REPORTEDLY..said, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?"

Paul asked, "who are You Lord?"
The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

In addition,..his zeal to persecute the early Christians
was re-channeled into preaching the Gospel.

Paul made three missionary
journeys around Asia Minor, Macedonia and Achaia.

He is the author of thirteen New Testament letters -
Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians,

1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon.

He might have wrote Hebrews.

With the exception of Romans, all of Paul's letters
were written to churches or individuals whom he knew personally.

The focus of Paul's writings is Jesus,..
through whom SO..PAUL SAYS..God has effected..redemption

refuted at
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0
more in the morning

- Paul seems to have conceived..of God in terms of an Angel;
not surprising,..if he appreciated..the doctrine of the Comforter Angel

This is implied..by his exhortation..on the deck of the ship:
"The Angel of God,..whose..(i.e..the Angel's?) I am, and whom I serve.

I believe God (i.e...the Angel),
that it shall be..even as it was told me"..(Acts 27:23,25).

- "Why tempt ye God,..to put a yoke upon the neck..of the disciples,
which...we were not able to bear?"..(Acts 15:10).is surely language of limitation,
as if God..was tempted to make..the Mosaic law obligatory..for all believers yet again.

Surely God Himself..would not consider doing so;..
perhaps an Angel..OR a demon..could?

or..the house of saul

It is interesting..that this action..of God
is described..as being due to.."the hand of the Lord"- an Angelic phrase-
being..with the people,..encouraging them to believe.. (Acts 11:18,21)

thus i thought..more info..is needed

Study 13:
http://www.aletheiacollege.net/angels/angels13.htm

CHAPTER 13..

is..The Comforter:..An Angel?

The point..has been made..by several expositors..that
as Israel were led..by a special Angel..through the wilderness,
whom Isaiah 63..associates with..God's Holy Spirit,..so too..the new
Israel were tobe led..by a Holy Spirit Angel,..the Comforter,..who was sent to
the church..by Jesus after His assuming..of all power over the Angels..on His ascension.

A summary..of the reasons
for thinking..this..is now attempted:

- Is. 63:7-11..describes the Angel..that guided Israel
through the wilderness..as the "Holy Spirit"- which is*..the Comforter.

- The Comforter..was sent..in God and Christ's Name (Jn. 14:26)-
the Angel..was sent..in God's Name (Ex. 23:21)

- The Comforter would teach (Jn. 14:26), guide (16:13),
be a judge (16:8) and prophesy (16:13); the Angel..guided

through the wilderness, taught God's ways,
judged Egypt and the Canaanites,..gave prophecies,..
and represented God..to Israel..as the Comforter represented Jesus to His people.

As the church ..began a new Exodus
and was constituted..God's Kingdom..in prospect
as Israel were..at Sinai,..it was fitting..that it..too..should
also have..an Angel leading them,..representing God..to them.

- The Comforter would.."shew you things to come" (Jn. 16:13)-
fulfilled by the Angel..giving the Revelation..to John.

- The Angel testified to the churches (Rev. 22:16)-
"the Comforter. . shall testify..of Me" (Jn. 15:26).

Jesus..and the Holy Spirit..together
fall into place..if the Holy Spirit has some degree
of reference..to a personal being..[in the form of an Angel]..

The error..of the doctrine..of the trinity..is not in identifying
the three..common forms..of God manifestation..[life/logic/love]

(i.e....through God Himself,..life lives
via the service..of christ Jesus..[love]
and the Holy Spirit Angel),..the logic.

This idea is worth applying to our
understanding..of the baptismal formula.

The work of..the Comforter Angel..
is to provide..the logical means

the words 'Angel'..and 'Spirit..are ..obviously
regarded as interchangeable..in the book of Acts(e.g. 8:26,29;..10:3,19,20).

In the same way..as the angel of Israel..dwelt in the temple
after delivering them,..so perhaps it is through Christ's..Comforter Angel ..that He dwells..in the spiritual..temple[works]..of the faith full..callled to serve..in christ.

- The Angel..in Revelation.."like the son of man"
(i.e...representing Him..but not Him personally)..was this same
Comforter Angel..representing Jesus..(Rev. 1:11..cp...22:13,8,16).

- We have seen..that our prayers..are presented to God
through Christ..by an Angel..(Rev. 8:4)..and that God answers prayer
through commanding..His Angels..(Num. 20:16; Dan. 9:20,21).

remembering thatpauline Jesus..is ultimately
the..only mediator..(1 Tim. 2:5)

it may be..that the mechanical presentation
of the incense..of our prayers to Him..is done by the Comforter Angel.

-The Comforter is called..“the spirit of truth”..(Jn. 14:17; 15:26; 16:13).

In the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls literature,..
this phrase describes an Angelic Spirit
who is the leader of the “good forces”..

and ‘in whom’..the righteous walk..[Testament of Judah 20, 1-5].

The Aramaic translation..of Job,..and the targums on it,..
uses the term prqlyt to describe the Angelic spokesman
[the malak melis]..who makes a testimony..in Heaven..in Job’s defence (Job 16:19;..19:25-27; 33:23).

"Ye have an unction..from the Holy One
(the Comforter/ Holy Spirit),and ye know all things"..(1 Jn. 2:20)..is clearly alluding..to the promise of..the Comforter in Jn. 14:26;

but "Holy One".is Angelic language,..
as if the Holy One was also an Angel.

- The Comforter..is..'one called alongside'-
is this..a reference to the literal,..physical presence of the Angel?

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

You people will have to come up with more than invective to earn a place on these pages. It is not enough to simply label my writing as drivel, tosh, rubbish etc. I am beginning to suspect that you have no arguments at all.

Under One God.
Please desist! You are filling these pages with unreadable stuff to such an extent I suspect some pathology.

Hi Peter,

I posed a question to you on the first page - and one of my own drawings.

Any opinion on it, as it has religious architectural imagery, although it's not for the glory of God.

Still qualifies as art I reckon - do you agree?

Poriot,
I looked at your drawing and found it interesting. One of the problems in this thread is that commentators have a much narrower understanding of what the word "god" may mean. Indeed they go off into paroxysms when they see it. I wonder if I wrote my articles and replaced "God" with "truth" or any such they would be more amenable to what I am trying to tell them. So to say that your drawing is "to the glory of God" is not to assert some religious connection, even though the architecture is ecclesial, but to say that it points to truth, or rather in the context of my article, that it ties together the invisible and the visible. It is neither entirely representative of the perceptual world nor is it entirely of an ideal world. I think this is what art is all about and I would definitely class your drawing as art and as being to the glory of God
Peter

peter..you..ask questions
yet deny..my right of reply?

please sir..
may i speak?
dare i..even try?

i..feel like jonah
3 days..in the whale...
and peter read../.nothing

why do..you ask..
if you deny..my right of reply?

oh well..lets give it..one more try..big guy
once i post this..last/first....i will leave you..in your arty festivus fester

then..thats it
from..the johanine jester

anyhow

dear piper..
i loved..your drawing
but..i..had to..reply it here...[@911/threat].

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5984&page=0

as i..ran out..of posts..here..[my-veto]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0

then
i presumed..peter..would ignore it
seems i was wrong..but lets move on..

forgive me peter
[only 3 to go..and im gone.].
[this is karma..for the comfort..you

gave demons./.psss christ indeed
who do you think..you..are?

poirot/quote<<..I'd be interested..in
what you..[peter sells?]..think of this:>>..

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/Poirot4/media/fc6e26aa.jpg.html

..<<It's a drawing
I did it..for a friend..
to render..his ideas in image...

<<It's not *to the glory..of God.
More,..it's a rendering..of man's conundrum..>>

title*..suggestion
*peters conundrumb?

<..-his..[mans?]..reality amidst..>>

*his last remaining..fears/ideas...

anyhow..from..memory
[be-cause..the page froze..to a blank screen]

it looked..like..a completely empty..[*vatican]..library
that shows..the last/pope..[paul/..or our peter?]..reading the final creed/imagry..[the ps ss christ-0]
out of the one..and only book..[his own..book]..the only one..left..in the vatican..labratery..to wit..his own book..of life

[anyhow thats..what i see../saw]

so much imagery..has not been included
so..sadly left much unsaid..as to how..it got so..empty

i love..its simple-ness..its subdued light..of last light/dusk
[of the firm/hand line..drawing]..reminds me of my own etchings

we must exchange..etching/scratchings..some time[in..our eternity]

anyhow..my pleasure awaits
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

hoping my job got dun
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0

it turned out god..did use a special..language
that of the simple confounding..the wise

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15341&page=0

and of course
the sleeping watchmen

continued from
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15467&page=0

poirot..said..
regarding..her worthy work..of heart-art

<<..I would..consider..it "art", because..
there is a message..beyond its imagery>>

yet peter repeatedly..has refused..to EVEn..listen..let alone teach.

<<..Make of it what you will,
it's designed to make you think..>>

hit the wrong..thinker?

<<..but more..upon man's..condition me-thinks..than any truth regarding God..>>..

mate..>>
its great*

i got some..great pictures
like the church..i..love 'imagery'..but not other ones..
blood/gore/torn-flesh..and other such imagery..wrought from hell

never..the less
i..note peters comment..and advise him
just..one more..night's posting..and MY*PART..[thankfully]..of this is near..done

so...lets get it..over with?

[ps..those having trouble..reading the script..go to your toolbox
and change..the letter size..[currently im at 18..and its so easy to read][lol..now i finished my edits

but..to work

since the Bible..so clearly tells us..that salvation
is received by faith alone (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5),

there must/be..a different interpretation..of those verses.
Scripture does not contradict..Scripture

Baptismal regeneration..is not a biblical concept.
Baptism does not save..from sin..but..from a bad conscience.In 1 Peter 3:21,

Peter clearly taught..that baptism..was not a ceremonial act
creed..of physical purification,..but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.

Baptism is the symbol..of what
has already occurred*..in the heart and life
of one who..has entrusted Christ as Savior..(Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12)

Baptism..is an important step..of..
the heart..via freewill..to affirm..our the will and cleanse the soul..

not into blind..unthinking obedience..to ritual/creed..big words..indoor educated language

it..is a bonding..of soul actions..that
every Christian could.can *chose to take...
Baptism..thus..*cannot ever b.. a requirement../*for salvation.

To make it such..
is an attack..on the sufficiency..of the death..of christ
and the in-validation..of his eternal resurrection..to which..these writings affirm

what else..has saul got?
creed..blood/guts/corpses/imagry
this?..<<..is of Jesus-Christ.>>..?

you jest?
how is..THE LIVING christ..honerd
by his flesh/blood..IMAGE*..fixated..into eternal sufference

SAUL>>HATED christ*>>
SO MUCH..*!*

hounded..him..to his destiny
then hid-away..under imaghry creed ritual
..that which..he truthfully did..PROVE..judgment day..

[and a..resection day]..fraud

is it magic/words..that save?
special rites..that seek..no sign of repentance
huge words..special language?

no..it is
*of the fathers..mercies..ALONE*
by his grace*..alone..because him..most high..dont judge no-one[no judgment day..remember?]

indeed GOD..loves..everyone..
as witnessed..by how god alone
sustains..EVEN the most vile..living..yet..its...wondrous../or mundane living

all..life is assured..by the love of..the most
who serves..even the least..thier living
who..proves his infinite love//by..sustaining..EVEN..the most vile..their living TOO

The Comforter is..'one called..alongside'-
[as opposed to your guide/watching your back]
alongside..is a reference to the literal,..physical presence..of the good of god..spirit..WITH-in

https://www.facebook.com/mr.9mmils/posts/10200990426835471

-.The language..of personification..of the Spirit
is found in..1 Cor. 2:10,11,..suggesting reference..to this Eternal Comforter Angel:"

recall..paul..he really believed...
god..to be mere angel..hence his man/angel..
the trinity confusion thing..that being said..he taught us much..

*but lets not pretend..he did the diciple/creed..thing..
jesus..only did..the love..of other thing..as the way..to love god

both loved..but..only one spake..of the father
the other of..the angel creed ritual/imagry/angle's

god cant be angel<<..God hath revealed ..*them unto us..
by His Spirit..(the Comforter Angel):..for ..the Spirit..searcheth all things,.

.yea even..unto..the deep things..of God...
[good/grace mercy..the light..sustaining life]

that life..in the light..
not the light

Angels..are always here
the moment..you ask..for help...
but/not for..utter selfish..material/reason

They..can clear..obstacles..for you...in the moment
but cant..over-rule..ignorance/stupidity

Know..that their purpose..to do so
is..limited..to that..they can do..

[think who is..to loose
their/cash..so you can get..*cash..]

they CANT..defy..the law..of reason/logic..nor karma

and..that it is..your divine/right
to ask*..for that help...but have you even tried..to?

Angels..also often/times..can change..the vibrational/energy field..that is..around you.[not..he one..you created]

The..vibrational/field..that surrounds you
is..created mainly..by your physical..emotions..
attracting..like thinking..[only you..can will 2 change..your own thinking].

Your emotions..are the greatest..
and first line of offense as much as defense
[of your ego system...

Emotions are germane..to your perceptions
of gods universe..and to loing..humanity.

You..created your emotions*..to
determine..your present reality

if/you are safe..
Other vibrational/form..find..your emotive/emissions
to be..fascinating..[energizing]..even though..they.[or rather..their karmic-balance]..often seek..to control..and limit

your true-power...
free-choice..for good..
[or..to be..fair..or foul]

Angels..do not have..obvious/emotions..
they=..have learned..not to judge[anyone]

trusting..that gods..inherent good..in time
will..develop..its intended-fruit..even in..the most revile-able

They..are not..subject..to that vibration.
but..innately affected..by it.
http://new-birth.net/booklet/30_years_among_the_dead.PDF

many..love song..that..isnt discordant..
yet..others rejoice in it..for angels come..of many/form..and function..serving according as/to..their want/need..even creed..in deed

"He,..of the/Spirit..of love/grace/mercy
(Angel)..of truth...will..guide you..into all truth;..for He shall not speak of Himself;..

but..[speak]..
whatsoever..He shall..hear,..
that shall/He speak:..(John 16:13).

The Angels..being..closely associated..with/inspiration..
the Comforter-Angel..now largely achieves..His aims through..the written word..He has inspired...

"Things to come"
were shown us..by..the Comforter

The Comforter..was to make known
everything..that was made knowable..to Him

my comforters..
revealed/unveiled..much

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0
to..you all..thank/you

oh well..cheers...see you next time
for the last time

may you too..find..that..life
leads us..via logic ..into love grace/mercy..

the eternalday
the eternal light

even so..the things..of God..*knoweth no man,..
but..the Spirit..of God...knows all living..intimately..personally>

[that we did..to the least..
we did..to him,,the most..cause god lies./.within all..
sustaining us all..to live..thus..he lived it all..beside/inside with-in us all

Now..we have received,..
not..the spirit..of the world,
but..the Spirit..which is..*of God;..

that..we might know
the things..that are freely given..to us..*of God..
comparing..the spiritual things,..(in the world)[ideal]..with spiritual"[word].,.[real]

If..the Spirit here...refers to the Comforter Angel,
then we have././a summary..of much New Testament teaching
on the present work..of the Spirit.. individual effort..of our own freewill

("comparing") is required,..for which we will be blessed
by the help of..the Spirit-Angel in our..understanding even more.

-The tongues sitting like flames..of fire
on the apostles at Pentecost..was an Angelic manifestation;
of their own guardian/angel/comforters..the Angels can be made.."a flame of fire"...
as easy..as our eyes may see..a pillar..of dust
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Life_in_the_World_Unseen.pdf

- <<God.."Granted repentance..unto life">>

the record..does not say
that He 'granted forgiveness..
as if to suggest..that this softening..
of the heart..*To repent..was granted..by the grace of God...

it was*

This is..an example of God..in tandem with heart/mind
with men's spirituality,..verifying..of what..He does through His Angels...

all unseen
http://new-birth.net/booklet/30_years_among_the_dead.PDF

made seen

enacting..[more like]..nerve impulse connections
with..the good merciful..of life/logic/light..
love..sustaining all life its living

Angels..are..gods/liing presence...[present]
his..servants..of service..to..life.

They..are often..assigned/earthly..life-long missions.
[but usually..only..on call/or..by sign..or design]

At..all times..they bring
a..messages..seeking..to awake..humanity...

Seldom..does the..*presence..of an..inactive/bored/rejected angel..stay..on the material/plane..[in Earthly..entangled-energy fields]..for very long.

our evil/thoughts..alone..drain..their energetic/being
with good thoughts..chasing bad/angels away..
as much as bad..drives the good away

What..you may think..of as..a guardian/angel
is not..truly..likely to/be..the only one angelic form...
often they play..tag..as..our emitting..of..*mixed emotions drives..away..one[or the other]

There are..many such..beautiful..beings..that
come and go..through..*your lifetime...all equally as..unseen..
as the demons..and angels..we often..do..entertain..unawares

You will..always/have access,..to the presence..
of the Angelic Kingdom...A thought..sent out..will always*..
bring..about..the immediate presence....of an angelic/being...

according as..what
it..is believing..your really needing

This..is why..so often..Archangel-Michael..has/said..

‘we send the angels out..
and they..come back to us..and they say..
what are we to do?..Humanity..doesn’t ask..specifically..for our help...

nor do you even seek to answer
a call for assistance’

good-day..to you
peter..i will try..to minmimise future posting

@Poirot,

<<I'd be interested in what you think of this:

http://s1072.photobucket.com/user/Poirot4/media/fc6e26aa.jpg.html

It's a drawing I did in for a friend to render his ideas in image.>>

Putting on my art critic hat:

It reminds me of Rae Dawn Chong in "Quest for Fire"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBE5bvICF8

Putting on my Sigmund Freud hat (cigar?):

Do you often have fantasies about running around naked in the Alhambra?
http://tinyurl.com/m275kn9

dear peter..[s]
i would enjoy..your feedback
on where abstractions..lead

i..feel
it develops..on your
/our..[peters sells]..theme

as he espoused here
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15077

The Interpretation*..of Knowledge
from
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/intpr.html

(13 lines/missing)

their..missing meaning..
can be restored

but no doubt..they exist[in-full]..in..your library

eg..from
The Exegesis ..on the Soul
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/exe.html

Wise men..of old..gave the spirit..a feminine name.
Indeed she is female..in her nature as well...She even has her womb.

As long as..she was alone..with the father,
she was virgin..and in form androgynous.

But when she..[our life spirit]..fell down..into a body
and came to this life..then she fell into the hands..of many robbers.

And the wanton/creatures passed..'her'..from one to another and [.seduced ..] her.[into wants/needs/urgings of the flesh]..

Some made use..of her..[spirits gifts]..by force,
[to do things most vile../..that stain our soul-form..according to our want]..while others did so by seducing her..with a gift/praises/rite/rituals.

In short,..they [israel?]..defiled her,..[the holy spirit]
and she..[gave up...] her virginity.[innocence]

And in her [soul]..body

she [we]..prostituted herself [ourselves]
and gave herself..[ourselves]..to one and all,..
considering each one..[life experience]..she was about to embrace..to be her husband.[god]

my guides..advise they dislike..the language
but this age..needs the unadulterated ..truth..if not by you..then who?

continues/at end

The Expository/Treatise..on the Soul

... they came to believe
by means of signs..and wonders and fabrications.

The likeness..that came to be..through them..followed him,
but through reproaches..and humiliations..before they received..the apprehension..of a vision they fled

*without having heard..
that the Christ..had been crucified/died.>>..

*and returned..refuting//the dreaded day/of judgment
and his return..refuted resection day*

..<<.But our generation..is..fleeing..yet again.
.since it does..not yet even believe*
that the Christ..is alive...

In order that..our faith may be holy..(and) pure,
not relying..upon itself actively,..but maintaining itself..planted in him,

do not say.."Whence is the patience..to measure faith?",
for each one..is persuaded..ONLY..by the things he believes.*

If he dis-believes them,..then he would be unable to be persuaded.
But it is a great thing..for a man who has faith,..since he is not in unbelief,..which is that of the world.

Now the world..is the place..of unfaith..
and the place of death.

And death exists as..
(14 lines missing)...

.

..likeness..

and..they will not..believe.

A holy thing..is the faith..to see..the likeness.
The opposite is un faith..in the likeness...darkness/nothing

The things..that he will grant them..will support them.
It was impossible for them..to attain to the imperishability

[...] will become
[...] loosen [...] those who were sent [...].

For he..who is distressed..will not believe.
He is unable..to bring..a great church,[body of christ]..since it is gathered..out of a small gathering...less each day

He became..an emanation of the trace...[sign]..For also they say..about the likeness..that it is apprehended..by means of his trace.

The structure..apprehends..by means of the likeness,..
but God apprehends..by means of his remembers.

He knew them
before they were begotten,..
and they will know him...thought forgotten

And the one..who begot each one..from the first will indwell them...
He will rule over them...

For it is necessary..for each one ... (25 lines missing)...

the Savior removed himself,..since it is fitting.

Indeed,..not ignorant..but carnal..is the word..
who took him..as a husband.

And it is he..who exists..as an image,
since that one..(masc.).also exists,..as well as that one (fem.)..who brought us forth...And she caused him to know..that she is the Womb.

This is a marvel..of hers..[souls]..
that she causes us..to transcend patience.

But this is the marvel:..he loves
the one..who was at first..to permit a virgin..

[.to remain virginal]

It is fitting to..[...].her
[...] unto death [...] desire to practice ... (23 lines missing)

Therefore she yielded..to him in her path.

He was first..to fix our eye..upon this virgin..who
is fixed to the cross..that is..in those places...[still crucified..though arisen]

And we see..that it is her
water..which the supreme authority..
granted to the one..in whom there is a sign...

This is the water..of immortality..which the great powers will grant to him..while he is below..in the likeness of her young son.

She did not stop..on his account.

She..[...]
the..[...]

he became..[...]
in the..[...] word..that appears to the [...].

He did not...(13 lines missing)...

in[...]through[...]come from those places.

Some fell..in the path...Others fell in the rocks.
Yet still others..he sowed in the thorns...And still others..he gave to drink..[..others chose.]..the shadow.

Behold [...] he [...]

And this is..the eternal reality..
before the souls come forth..from those..who are being killed...

But he..was being pursued..in that place..by the trace[sigh]
produced..by the Savior...And he was crucified..and he died..not his own death,..for he did not at all deserve..to die because of the church of mortals.

And he was nailed..so that they might..keep him in the Church.

He answered her..with humiliations,..
since in this way..he had borne the suffering..which he had suffered...

For Jesus..is for us..a likeness
on account/of ... (14..lines missing).

Oh dear:)...lol

Planet3