The author asks what to do? That's easy. Stay out of it until such time as prove positive is found that the alleged chemical attacks were in fact launched by the Syrian regime.
This is far from certain. Any intel from Israel is by definition suspect as that country has been clamouring for an attack on Syria for years, if not decades. Now it seems that the rather suspicious Israeli communication intercepts are of alleged confused talk between Syrian military units AFTER the alleged attack happened.
Would a strike as envisaged be legal under U.S. domestic law without congressional approval?
Who will join the fray? In Europe, apparently Poland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Germany and Norway have spoken out against any use of force against Syria. Austria has blocked its airspace for any air operation related to Syria, and while the Arab League blamed the chemical incident on the Syrian government, it has not endorsed any punitive measures.
Even that appallingly weak creature, Cameron of Great Britain, is facing mounting pressure to pull his head in.
Could all this talk of imminent war be Obama posturing before meeting Putin and others in St Petersberg in a few days time?
And who in their right mind would launch a cruise missile against supposedly know locations of chemical war material?
This rush to yet another war has been slowed down. Hopefully saner heads will now have a chance to be heard.
http://www.moonofalabama.org/ is well worth a read on this and other matters.

The UN inspectors who were called in to investigate the chemical weapon attack, have allegedly found signs of chemical substances. They appear to have little if any intention of ascertaining who was responsible for the attack.

That Israel army intelligence has gone public with its alleged 'evidence' that the Assad army was to blame is indeed suspicious.

Would the USA become involved? Now that the US interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan have petered or are about to peter out, the US arms movement presumably would be pressing for new skirmishes so as to boost their arms sales -- the same could be said of the UK and French counterparts.

Our PM apparently thinks that his electoral prospects would improve by calling for action against the Assad regime (see article ' Rudd says 'overwhelming case' for international response to Syria chemical weapons massacre', Read more: http://www.news.com.au/world-news/middle-east/rudd-says-8216overwhelming-case8217-for-international-response-to-syria-chemical-weapons-massacre/story-fnh81ifq-1226706503974) :

"THE Syrian regime used chemical weapons on its own people and must pay a price, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said today after emerging from a briefing on the crisis.

He said it was the Federal Government's belief "the Syrian regime is responsible for these chemical weapons attacks on the Syrian people".

"The evidence, in our judgement, is now overwhelming," he said."

This morning, Rudd declared his support for plans to attack Syria. As he has no proof that the Assad regime was responsible for the gas atrocities, and as he acknowledges that the UN will not sanction such an attack which will cause more civilian casualties, isn't our prime minister a war criminal?

Here is what we already know: The Syria crisis is swiftly escalating with the advent of yet another unverified chemical weapons attack on the civilian population which is being used as a broad permit for the Obama Administration to enter into open operations against the Assad government. A previous chemical attack at the beginning of this summer was left unverified, though the establishment went to great lengths to convince the American public the Assad government was responsible. It certainly didn’t help that the UN was relying purely on “samples” from a French evening newspaper called Le Monde rather than an officially sanctioned source, and that the UN was forced to acknowledge that the Syrian insurgents may have been involved.

Today, the mainstream media and the U.S. government references “strong indications that Syria’s government used chemical weapons in attacks that opposition groups claimed killed more than 1,100 people” as if their version of events is already considered concrete reality.

But where are these “strong indications”? Where is this unassailable evidence of Assad’s involvement? The American public hasn’t been given a scrap of verifiable data concerning the attack and its origin. Once again, we are being asked to accept on simple “faith” that our government is telling us the truth and that military intervention must be supported.

Here are some facts: The Syrian insurgency is made up primarily of Al Qaeda operatives (terrorists and criminals). The CIA trained and supported these operatives using Benghazi as a base for at least a year before the Benghazi attacks. Syrian insurgents have been caught on numerous occasions committing startling crimes, including the torture and murder of civilians, and the mutilation of prisoners and even their corpses. Captured Syrian soldiers are commonly executed.

The U.S. government continues to support the insurgents despite their death squad mentality, supplying heavy weapons including anti-aircraft missiles.

Syrian insurgents impose their own fanatical system of theological governance in regions where they have total control.

Where does this all lead: To chaos similar to that in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt etc. Long term it’s all about a preemptive strike on Iran.

Peter, anyone who expects anything sensible from the U.S. and its Imperial Allies is deluded!

Is there any other choice?
The Syrians have been making and stockpiling this nerve gas for years! For what purpose? The annihilation of Israel perhaps?
Cruise missiles can target large military resources. Airfields, Warplanes Ammo dumps/fuel stores?
The Americans/NATO could also deploy some drones, tasked with taking out tanks/air defense and other less visible military ordinance?
With that task done and dusted, and no end in sight?
Stage two ought to be some bunker busters aimed directly at the mass murdering Assad bothers!
If we don't stop this genocide, whose turn will be next?
If however, we give the world's remaining tyrants, something to think about, as their possible future, we could save/spare millions of lives in the future?
Rhrosty.

David G,
Well, whatever one may think about some of the Allies, they sure are not as screwed up as the middle eastern crowd. I mean if there were only one middle easterner left he'd still find a way of fighting with himself.

In 2003 Cheney and the PNAC crew demand aggression against a sovereign nation. The trumped-up pretext: Iraq has WMDs. Attack! Do something! Brush aside the pinko lefty latte-sipping wimps. Kill-Kill-Kill! But embarrassingly Saddam Hussein offers carte blanche for UN inspectors, despite knowing they would include spies looking for military targets. Hans Blix asks for time and resources for a thorough inspection that would cost less than a day of war. Shuddup we’re goin’ in, Cheney thunders, to cheers from Bliar and Howard.

2013 and they’re at it again, with Hague and Cameron and Hollande chosen to lead the lie campaign with Obama playing coy. Just a two-day strike to punish the secular Syrian regime for using poison gas. Never mind that they say they didn’t. Never mind that inspectors this time have gone in and will need time to complete their inspection that could say whether Hague, Hollande and the Pentagon’s non-Syrian “rebel” allies were the ones spreading the sarin gas. Never mind that gassing Syrians would massively disadvantage Assad. Already the Kill-Kill-Kill bellowers are adding Hurry-Hurry-Hurry as in 2003. They make their objective plain enough for anyone with more than two neurones to figure out: oust Assad, get it under way before the inspectors turn up the false flag.

Why? Look at any Middle East map: X to Syria to Iraq to Iran. Who is X? Which is the most blatant pariah state in the entire region, which invariably gets the Europeans, British and Americans dancing to its tune? Click this for a map that spells it out:
http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/middle_east_and_asia/settlementswb86.jpg
Each red dot is a new annexation along the road to empire.

In 2003 Rudd echoed Howard's treasonous lies. Now he's PM and singing the same tune. Same orchestrator?

Earlier US false-flag events:

Robert Stinnett, a WW II veteran and journalist researched his book upon discovering, in 1993, that the U.S. Naval Security Group Command had placed hundreds of thousands of Japanese military messages obtained by U.S. monitoring/spying stations prior to Pearl Harbor into the public domain. These records had not been seen by anyone since 1941.

What Stinnett found was the vast majority of Americans (eighty percent) was non-interventionist in 1940-1941. After Germany “made a strategic error” by signing a treaty with Japan, a U.S. Lieutenant Commander of Naval Intelligence saw an opportunity to counter the America First movement by provoking Japan into attacking the United States and getting the public behind war.

Stinnett found that President Franklin D. Roosevelt adopted an Office of Naval Intelligence plan to provoke Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor with an eight-point plan, the most important of which was keeping most of the U.S. fleet parked as sitting ducks at Pearl Harbor. When the commander of the U.S. fleet, Admiral James Richardson, objected to allowing his sailors to be slaughtered by the Japanese, FDR fired Richardson and replaced him with Rear Admiral Husband E. Kimmel.

FDR implemented the entire eight-point plan but kept Admiral Kimmel and General Walter Short, commander of U.S. Army troops in Hawaii, in the dark. Over 1,000 Japanese messages per day were intercepted by the U.S. Navy, which knew in advance everything the Japanese were doing in the Pacific on their way to Pearl Harbor. They knew in advance that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor on December 7 1941. Kimmel and Short were even given direct orders by FDR himself, Stinnett found, to “remain in a defensive posture” because “the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act.”

On October 30, 2000, President Bill Clinton signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act that, among many other things, acknowledged that Kimmel and Short were denied crucial military intelligence about the Japanese fleet prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. Kimmel and Short were fired by FDR after the attack, but were exonerated fifty-nine years later.

Sound familiar?

Oh and more of the same...

Shortly before his assassination in November of 1963 President John F. Kennedy had begun recalling U.S. military “advisors” from Vietnam. His successor, Lyndon Johnson, was hell bent on waging total war in Vietnam. Once again the American public had little interest in a civil war thousands of miles away in Asia, but were easily duped into acquiescing in one. Once again the ruse involved mysterious occurrences involving battle ships in the middle of nowhere, where the only accounts of the incidents came from the U.S government.

The U.S. government began “covertly” supplying gunboats to the South Vietnamese army which were used to attack the coast of North Vietnam. This was acknowledged in 1964 by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. In addition, American warships hovered around North Vietnamese ports. This included the USS Maddox. Placing the ships in harm’s way was Johnson’s FDR-type strategy to provoke an attack by the North Vietnamese, and it succeeded.

Johnson falsely claimed that there was a second attack on the USS Maddox, but that is acknowledged to be a hoax. Naval sonar picked up American propeller noise, and radar showed images caused by bad weather, not North Vietnamese gunboats. Johnson nevertheless made a radio speech describing a second “attack” and called for military retaliation. Soon thereafter he ordered air strikes. In a 2003 television documentary entitled “The Fog of War” Robert McNamara admitted that the second attack on the Maddox “never happened.”

It may seem trite, but it is nevertheless true that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are bound to repeat its mistakes. Americans are about to repeat the same mistake of squandering their blood and treasure on another military adventure (in Syria) that has nothing whatsoever to do with defending American freedom – or anyone else’s.

I won't even mention the two Gulf war's, 9/11 or Libya, the same old story works there too!

We are facing an incredibly dangerous situation in the Middle East, and our understanding is not helped by such superficial articles as the one under discussion.

I agree with the comments of Halduell, Geoff, David G and Julian, and would add some brief points.

The article ignores a large number of relevant factors. To cite just a few:
- the attacks by Israeli and the US on Syria have been going on for at least two years.
- Both the US and Israel have used chemical weapons in the region in recent years
- The new Iran-Iraq-Syria oil and gas pipeline threatens Israeli ambitions to supply Europe (partly at the expense of stolen Palestinian resources
- international law forbids the use of force to settle disputes except in two specific situations and neither of them apply here.
- The Americans are yet again supporting terrorist groups including but not limited to al Nusra and al Qaeda in pursuit of their geopolitical goals.
- the campaign against Syria was spelt out years ago in a document prepared for Netanyahu by US neocons and also in Hersh's article in the New Yorker in 2007.
- There has been the usual abysmal response by Rudd/Carr and when Bishop is Foreign Minister in a couple of weeks don't expect an improvement.

On topics like this one, I'm never sure whether Fruitcake International is extreme right-wing isolationist (CEC, Aryans, white supremacists, etc.) or extreme pseudo-left pro-Russian apologists (i.e. like some Greens and supporters of the old CPA and SPA). So one has to ignore most comments, as if walking through a minefield, and press on.

The facts:

* somebody used chemical weapons in Syria in the past week;

* the Syrian regime stopped any UN inspection for five or six days, and even then their vehicles came under sniper fire;

* ergo, the Syrian regime used chemical weapons on its own people, which won't worry most of those extreme right- and left-wingers, since Assad is anti-US/anti-Obama, and after all, little people are expendable;

* the US (and its allies) are not so stupid as to contemplate actual boots-on-the-ground intervention;

* in order to pull Assad's regime sort of into line, so that they do not use such weapons again, the US will send in high-precision weapons like Cruise missiles, to destroy runways, helicopter hangars and repair sheds, control towers, radar systems and perhaps specific military-oriented port facilities. i.e. they will degrade the fascist regime's capacity to wage war, but not by pumping yet more arms into the field;

* maybe, simultaneously, the US will send a few Cruise missiles into some of the al-Qa'ida bases, al-Nusra, etc., while they are at it. I certainly hope so.

The task is how to boost the democratic forces while degrading the various fascist forces, those of Assad and those of al-Nusra.

It's certainly going to be a bumpy ride. But one does not need to imagine conspiracies of invasion and occupation, that's never going to happen. Remove the ideological blinkers, please.

Joe
www.firstsources.info

"It's certainly going to be a bumpy ride," says Loudmouth! That will become the understatement of the millennium.

The disappointing part is Rudd's servile supporting of the U.S., the world's major warmonger. He is a Christian, isn't he?

He goes to Church each Sunday and is told about 'love they neighbor' and 'thou shall not kill'! Doesn't make much impression on him, does it? Or Obama. Or Cameron.

Ah well, just make sure you kiss your kids each night and enjoy the time you have left with them!

I would propose the same solution as I proposed to 911 that being, engage the services of 100 hot shot mercenaries, pay them one million each now, with a promise of another two million each when they deliver the heads of the leaders of the group/s who instigated the chemical attacks.

Best case, it would cost three hundred million,Plus costs, without loss of any of our armed forces.

Worst case, it would cost one hundred million and we still have the option of military action.

If they instigate military action again, I would suggest the lessons from Iraq and Afganistan have not been learned from.

I say this because had they done this, they would have had both Husain and Bin Lardin within a few months and saved trillions of dollars and thousands of lives from all parties.

Furthermore, given the way that Bin Ladin was eventually captured and killed, it would suggest that this way wouldnhave worked.

Hi David,

From your last sentence, I'm assuming that you think that Iran will use nuclear weapons if the US sends in cruise missiles. Do you think the Yanks - after all their idiotic mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan - haven't taken that into account ?

What's the bet that any intervention on the US' part will be extremely focussed, very hard-hitting but not indiscriminate, over in a few hours ?

Let's see :)

Joe

http://www.eutimes.net/2013/08/putin-orders-massive-strike-against-saudi-Arabia-if-west-attacks-Syria/

Vladmir Putin is not messing around. He said there would be no more Libyas and would not tolerate an attack on Syria. There is no conclusive proof who used the Sarin gas. The USA Banking Military Industrial Complex finds countries to liberate who refuse to be slaves to their imperialism.

Why would Assad kill his own people and invite an attack from his enemies? It would make more sense to gas the rebels.

An attack on Syria will kill far more civilians than those who were gassed. So the logic is to liberate Syria by destroying it. Total lies
by our Western War Mongers.

Have to agree with loudmouth. Besides, after all the civilian deaths/genocide, doing nothing is no longer an option!
Rhrosty.

Loudmouth, Rhrosty,

yes it may be all over in a few hours, on TV at least. Never mind the poor people of Syria who will after a interminable period of destabilisation become poorer and more isolated than before the regime change instigated by the West.

Then following this catastrophe, you will see an Iranian revolution, one that is of course instigated by the US, Israel and its minions, again to the detriment of peace and stability in the ME.

Where does all this lead..........back to the White House, the Military Industrial Complex, Israel and its greater ME hegemonic dreams and of course the death of millions of innocent people.

The old saying 'better the devil you know, rather than the one you don't' clearly comes to mind.

It makes one wonder what the real agenda is, I would suggest it would be energy and curtailing Chinese and Russian power against a declining US power world-wide.
Geoff

Iran has just said it will bomb the crap out of Israel and Syria says likewise if it is attacked. Our Western War Mongers have totally lost it.

A London security consultant, Dan Kaszeta, formerly of the US Army's Chemical Corps, is currently compiling, from sources publicly available from crime scene reports and footage and a study of the use, properties and effects of war chemicals, a reconstruction of the false flag chemical attack in Damascus[1]. His objective is not to try to deduce the origin of the attack, but his forensic observations point to what we are being told as being a crock. His evolving reconstruction is written in very clear language and is consistent with the agent being a cocktail of chemicals, without significant quantities of sarin and possibly without including any other nerve poisons.

Kaszeta outlined his interim observations and conclusions in an interview with Timur Moon of International Business Times[2] and has updated them since [3]

For anyone seeking to evaluate the events knowledgeably and to penetrate the relentless pressure of official talking heads (especially ABC/BBC/Aljazeera TV) to cut the information selectively to steer the reader towards the call of the PNAC’s dogwhistle, an hour or so exploring the Strongpoint Security website [1] would amply repay the effort.

[1] http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/resources/syria/

[2] http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/501313/20130825/syria-chemical-weapons-damascus-tear-gas-jobar.htm

[3] http://strongpointsecurity.co.uk/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Revised-Thoughts-on-Damascus.pd

Hi Arjay,

I don't know, you left-wingers are so transparent !

You reveal so much of yourself when you assert that

'There is no conclusive proof who used the Sarin gas. The USA Banking Military Industrial Complex finds countries to liberate who refuse to be slaves to their imperialism.'

Gosh, so impartial !

And who are the war-mongers in your scenario: "Iran has just said it will bomb the crap out of Israel and Syria says likewise if it is attacked."

Do you mean peace-loving Iran and Syria ? And why Israel, which, for all its supposed faults, has not actually attacked Syria ?

So are you saying that the Syrian regime has the right to stop any investigation of the use of chemical weapons, at least for five days, but is not responsible for this terrible war-crime, and is actually peace-loving ? That it can attack Israel, and be peace-loving ? And that Iran, out of nowhere, can attack Israel and still be peace-loving?

What the weather like on your planet ?

Left-whingers ! You gotta laugh !

Cheers :)

Joe

Loudouth you fool, I'm not left or right wing. This is about survival of the planet. If being left means I don't want a nuke war, I hope billions become aware.The Joint Chiefs of staff Gen Martin Dempsey has warned against an attack on Iran because of the possible serious consequences

The Banking Military Industrial Complex are seeing their dreams of a NEW WORLD ORDER evaporate, so they are desperate and are willing to bluff Russia/China with a nuke war. The West has already used mini nukes,so using the big nukes are just an academic exercise.

Our neo-cons have increasing public awareness of their crimes, a collapsing &700 trillion derivative scam, with Russia, China, Iran Syria forming an alliance to take them on,WW3 will happen if people like you don't awaken.

What some unenlightened refer to as western war mongers are really nothing more than a bunch of people concerned about the future of our Nations. The mad out there need to be curbed every now & then from destroying everything from peoples' hopes to our environment. By hitting the mad those who are out to rectify the madness are then called war mongers.
Those oil fires lit by the mad aren't as environmentally friendly as some may believe. If the mad didn't get so much support from their mad allies then there wouldn't be a need for conflict. Those who condemn the so-called war mongers of the Wets should start thinking as to what would happen to them if those war mongers didn't act. Just look at Australia's boat people situation & how it got out of hand because the anti war mongers got their way.
Just imagine if the boat crowd decides to bring weapons ?

simple
dont target nuthin
[you break it you fix it]

my plan..go in unarmed

just empty trucks..under the medias eyes
truck out the poisen*.[make safe].[scatter it into..some deep sea trench

then get out
using a combined Russian/usa volunteer peace nicks..

ie..true peace keepers
[many such as i will go gladly..just to remove [suck-out]..the poison]

go for the glory..not the gore
stop..ignoring thou shalt not murder*

Sorry, Arjay, it's so hard to tell the difference these days.

I like your fruit-cake argument though, that WW3 is inevitable because of the evil of Western capitalist imperialism - and when it DOESN'T happen, you can claim that it was because of your prescience in warning the people about its dangers and thereby stopping the Evil Empire from doing its will. Win-win !

But how does anyone know that you're not really a left-whinger, even when you claim you're not ?

Hmmmmmm ....

Joe

I'm not sure that Assad has many options. He seems to have been left to try to work out a solution to an insoluble problem that he had no intent to create.

What the US and other forces need to do is give the regime a chance to resolve the issues free of the constant agitation from the insurgents.

I'm sure that Assad is not a stupid person and he is not ignoring the issues at hand.

I can't see what the US gains by an attack on what is a significant moderate influence in this very unstable part of the world. Surely Israel is more seriously threatened by a Syria controlled by extremists?

The USA, did not intervene before the before the gassing occurred? Why is that?

There are several questions:

1 Are we sure that the Syrian government gassed its own people?

The answer is yes, as far as possible considering the restricted access given by the Assad regime.

2 Is a military strike justified? Given that China and Russia are bound to block UN agreement, the question is whether a coalition can legally pursue military action. After the Rwandan genocide where nations sat on their hands, there has been formal agreement that intervention is justified in order to save lives. As with most cases, definitions are flexible, and largely depends on how well the convincing the narrative for action is.

With the death of up to 200 000 Syrians, mostly civilians, and now the use of illegal weapons against unarmed civilians, the justification to take action to deter further crimes against humanity is very strong.

3 Finally, the question is what action is justified?

Given that regime change is not an objective, but the obligation to avoid civilian deaths is paramount, the targets to be sufficiently punitive would tend to focus on military and economic targets important to the regime.

I would guess:

Military aircraft, ships, ports, bases and personnel.

Oil refineries, bridges, power stations and factories especially those used to produce chemical weapons.

Hi Peter,

I think we all need to take a much more analytical and historical look at the Syrian situation, its context to the wider issues in the ME region and the geopolitical posturing by the West and their Russian/Chinese counterweights.

There can be no doubt that the warring factions of Islam have been systematically aligning themselves with the various totalitarian regimes throughout the region. Those same Islamic factions also support the “host” regimes with religious, political and military endorsement. They have become “parasitic” relationships.

Support from either the Western or the Eastern blocks, or from other Islamic factions, can only ever be seen by opposing regimes and Islamic variants as “taking sides” and produce, as always, more international hostilities.

I don’t understand why mass murder of civilians by gun fire, mortars, missiles, assassinations, starvation, and dislocation are any different to chemical weapons? Mass murder is mass murder. Why are chemical weapons such a significant trigger?

External interference will only increase hostilities throughout the region and reinforce the factional polarization.

I’m in no doubt that the USA is itching to have a crack at the Russian S 300 ADS sold to the Syrians. I’m also in no doubt that the Russians are equally desperate to stop the USA demonstrating that the Syrians were sold a dud.

I’m certain that the targeting of airfields, every aircraft the Syrians have, their S300’s, munitions and every single piece of military hardware is already done. Possibly with much current and accrued intelligence from Israel.

Whilst it might make “good” viewing for a couple of days it will only make things worse.

All nations must stay out of it and not be motivated by the pervasive emotion triggers associated with chemical weapons.

Its interesting the comments in this string appear to reflect the slight UK majority (public and Parliamentary) opinion against military action in Syria.

Between the lines my article pointed out the downsides of Western "boots on the ground" in Syria and the limitations of cruise missile use.

Still its interesting that the US appears prepared to act alone against Syria. http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-us-syria-intel-20130830,0,1708580.story However French military participation is still likely and sigint support from many NATO countries (and Israel) will remain ongoing.

There are also a couple of low key classes of weapons the US can wield against Syria.

Issues of timing of action appear to point to Sunday or Monday (US time). This timing is geared to:

- the US building a more publicly evocative case for action

- the withdrawal of UN weapon inspectors late Saturday, and

- preferably preceding the ETA of Russian naval units (the cruiser Moskva and an ASW frigate) from the Black Sea (Sevostopol) into the eastern Mediterranean where 5 US destroyers and (probably) 2 subs are ready to fire their cruise missiles.

Pete

in my opinion..the timing is wrong

but to comment..on..<<..building a more publicly evocative case for action >>

their working on it
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/obamajustifiessyria.jpg

but also..there is a suggestion box
wrh@whatreallyhappened.com

i..like to have faith..our leaders arnt stupid

Leaked documents reveal US sees Israel as a spying threat
http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/middle-east-north-africa/319513-leaked-documents-reveal-us-sees-israel-as-a-major-spying-threat

The Obama administration views Israel as one of the top spying threats facing its intelligence services, leaked documents reveal.

A secret budget request obtained by The Washington Post from former NSA contractor Edward Snowden lumps Israel alongside U.S. foes Iran and Cuba as “key targets” for U.S. counterintelligence efforts.

The document suggests Israel does not believe U.S. assurances that its interests are aligned with Israel's on crucial issues such as Iran and peace talks with the Palestinians.

25 most memorable quotes..SO...FAR*
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/08/25-quotes-about-coming-war-with-syria.html

simple
dont target nuthin
[you break it you fix it]
UOG,
I'm sure most people here would agree with that. But we're not the problem, we're not mass-producing people to jump onto boats to head for Australia. You really need to convince them of your idea.

Hi Peter/Plantagenet,

I’m not a supporter of any military interference in Syria for the reasons given above but they are probably not the same reasons as the Russians or Chinese might give.

I’m not convinced that your promotion of US cruise missiles as primary strike weapons is valid, probably more of a distraction to both the Russians and the Syrians.

I think the last time US cruise missiles were used in anger was the gulf war in 1991 and they have come a long way since then. The Syrians have the S 300 (SA10 Grumble) ADS bought from Russia. The S300 ADS, like the conventional cruise missiles are hopelessly out of date.

In the last 20 years the US has achieved superiority in stealth, stand off, UAV and Electronic Warfare (Growler) technology. The S-300 system can track multiple targets and engage multiple targets, unfortunately; first the S 300 must find the targets. So it could potentially knock off a few conventional cruise missiles but not much else, even with the support of the Russians. Not to mention the Air Launched X45/X51 hypersonic cruise missiles the US now has.

Whilst hoping that none of this technology is used, if the US chooses from its current technology the Syrians would not know what hit them, where it came from, how it got there or when it is coming next. At best the Russian Navy could join the US fleet in their box seat to watch the fireworks.

Alternatively they could drink more Vodka, March up and down the decks singing military songs, or even go on the new Russian submarines which have glass bottoms so the current Russian Navy can get a really good look at the Old Russian Navy.

Cruise missiles, maybe? But not the ones we think we know.

What Spindoc and Shadow Minister can't get their tiny minds around is that the U.S. with all its superior technology and power couldn't even beat a handful of so-called terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan!

Only retarded people could glorify what the imperial U.S. has become since 1945 and how many millions they have killed! The U.S. has its tentacles spread all over the world in its effort to achieve global domination.

Of course, you need a brain that thinks to become aware of this reality and what it means for the world.

Uncle Sam is Big Brother!

Spindoc, you wrote "At best the Russian Navy could join the US fleet in their box seat to watch the fireworks. Alternatively they could drink more Vodka, March up and down the decks singing military songs, or even go on the new Russian submarines which have glass bottoms so the current Russian Navy can get a really good look at the Old Russian Navy."

I would suggest that perhaps you may underestimate the Russian implication. What if their vessels are on station prior to any US/other nation first strike effort on Syria and what might be the outcome if the Russians decide to counter such an offensive, with missiles of their own, capable of significantly reducing any major impact on Syria.

This may see far-fetched, but Putin is not stupid and this situation could rapidly escalate beyond what has been proposed above.

I am not suggesting it will happen like this, but the possibility that this may occur. Do we really need this possibility to occur? Me thinks not.

Assad may be a tyrant, but regime change and most likely the 'failed State' will become the result, and who will benefit, certainly not the Syrian people, despite the horrendous death toll too date.

Empires rise and fall all the time, its just such a pity the US has chosen such a poor path to follow as they journey down the spiral into irrelevance as the years progress. Arrogance is the only word that comes to mind.

I'm not advocating use of cruise missiles or discounting use of other weapons.

@spindoc

Re your assumption "I think the last time US cruise missiles were used in anger was the gulf war in 1991 and they have come a long way since then."

Probably good idea to do some research first.

The main US cruise missile used in 1991, the Tomahawk, has been steadily developed for decades and last used in Libya 2011.

SINCE 1991 US Tomahawk cruise has been used in:

1993 - Iraq

1995 - Bosnia

1996 - Iraq

1998 - Iraq, Sudan and Afghanistan

2001 - Afghanistan

2003 - invasion of Iraq, more than 725 used

2009 - Yemen

2011 - Libya, more than 159 used.

Rather than being unused and obsolete the United States Navy has a stockpile of around 3,500 Tomahawk cruise missiles of all variants.

You're more on the money with use of Electronic Warfare (Growler) which can disable or take control of Syrian computers (including those in air defence).

The US has also recently being refining electromagnetic pulse (EMP) technology - in cruise or faster rocket powered missiles.

Other cyber malware might also be used.

The value of EW or Cyberweapons is low casualties, non-violent use. .

Australia is infected by or combats 1,000s of bits of malware (low level cyber weapons) daily.

Pete

What DavidG hasn't wrapped his tiny mind around is that the Taliban went from governing a country and a large chunk of Pakistan to disparate rag tag bunch of insurgents, and that Afghanistan and Iraq are not governed by the insurgents.

In a set piece battle, the Syrians would last only a few weeks, and the ability of the US to do immense damage in a couple of days would heavily weaken the Syrian ability to fight the insurgents.

youknow nuithin

here is what we KNOW
every second word = WE KNOW

no no no no no

NO..!

KNOW..YOU DONT KNOW..

nuthin..but what big fibber$$$..
[professional liars]..tell you to say you know

they may thinktoknow
but really dont KNOW..cant proove theyKNOW

knowingisntproving..nomastter how manytimes you SAY..youKNOW

WE DONT want to know
what you decieve you KNOW

we still say NO

now go..
we heard..all you think..you *know
and suggest..instead of destruction..you all grow up
stop blowing things up..

our KNOWN/KNOWNS
reveal..you DONT know..dont know now
YOU lot..didnt KNOW then..now go..we know

known/knowns of clowns
to us in the known..yes WE KNOW..outhink you know
but your known/knowns..been known to be wrong KNOWING..*before

UOG,
Will you still recommend saying no when they start uprisings here in Australia ?

looks like your correct

A reporter with Israel’s most widely read newspaper..has been told by defense establishment officials..that a US-led attack on Syria will begin on Saturday..and end when Barack Obama meets Vladimir Putin on Wednesday.

i trust your..both wrong

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5984#170948

Geoff of Perth,

For pity’s sake Geoff, do you really think the Ruskis have glass bottomed subs, march the decks singing songs and drink copious amounts of vodka? Lighten up man.

Belay that, I think the vodka one might have some merit.

Peter/Plantagenet,

Thanks for the research and of course you are right about the continued use of CM variants since 1991. I guess the point I was making is that of the subsequent conflicts you cite, I don’t think the CM’s were up against the S 300 systems? In the case of Syria they are. This is why I think the US might use a different mix of systems.

The other thought I have was about the probable confrontation between US and Russian Naval Forces if the US Navy was actually firing at Syria? Would it make more sense for the US to assign their Naval Task Group to just offer Aegis type support to coordinate, suppress and defend assets rather than be “seen” to be actually launching weapons right under the noses of the Ruskis? A little too provocative perhaps?

Given that we both agree the US has significant other capabilities, why would they deploy conventional CM’s against a potential S 300 threat and at the same time wave a red rag at the Ruskis?

Since we don’t know what the US currently is thinking in terms of potential targets, we can’t guess at the type of weapons they would need to deploy.

Academic I suppose, I guess they will do whatever they think they must.

My view remains the same, it is a humanitarian disaster but they should all stay out of it.

Yeah, the missiles are about to start flying again and the U.S. Armament Manufacturers and their shareholders, and intellectually-compromised people like Spindog and Shadow Monster, are happy again.

Of course, the thinkers who have the wit to see where all this is heading (hint: nuclear war) are very concerned. They don't see war as entertainment or as a noble boost to the stock markets of the world. They see it as proof that humans, in the main, are barbarians!

What a shame that morons are in the majority in most societies!

Hi spindoc

To get a handle on the coming attack Googling - Syria Washington Post - probably provides a fair idea .

To disable the S-300 SAMs and other initial targets in Syria the US, France and maybe Israel might use stealthy missiles, stealthy flight profiles, stealthy jets and cyber weapons simultaneously in the first 10 minutes.

Most air bases in Syria (some defended by S-300s) will be targets of cyber weapons (malware on steroids) and maybe cruise missiles.

On targeting see
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/28/world/middleeast/obama-syria-strike.html?hp&_r=1& :

"The attacks, which are expected to involve scores of Tomahawk cruise missiles launched from American destroyers in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, would not be focused on chemical weapons storage sites, which would risk an environmental and humanitarian catastrophe and could open up the sites to raids by militants, officials said.

The strikes would instead be aimed at military units that have carried out chemical attacks, the headquarters overseeing the effort and the rockets and artillery that have launched the attacks, according to the options being reviewed within the administration.

An American official said that the initial target lists included fewer than 50 sites, including air bases where Syria’s Russian-made attack helicopters are deployed. The list includes command and control centers as well as a variety of conventional military targets."

As expected the US is building up a case aimed at US politicians and public for an attack soon.

Pete

God, I hope you're right, Pete :)

OR:

1. Dictatorships should be able to use chemical weapons on their own people with impunity. Nobody else should intervene. The world should stand idly by.

2. Any effort to defend defenseless people should be interpreted as colonialist/capitalist/US aggression.

3. And yet, is the US going to be so spineless that it won't come to the aid of defenceless people, because there is nothing in it for them ? Like Rwanda ?

So do we have one of those ideal situations - for the extreme-right whingers- in which the US is damned whatever it does, action or no-action ? Serve the b@stards right !

Isn't it fun to exploit situations thrown up by the massacre of innocent people ? And to watch the US squirm - what to do, what to do ? Yuck, yuck !

Joe

Pete, I read you comment above carefully. There is not a shred of criticism in it.

Surely you're not applauding the approaching slaughter in Syria by the imperial nation that has killed millions since WW2 using bombs, missiles, Agent Orange, napalm, depleted uranium, white phosphorous, etc, are you?

David G.

I don't trust any governments particularly great powers be they Russia, the US or China. I trust aid bodies more even if their findings can only reach a mass audience via governments.

Here's something you're sure to condemn ie. something happening in the Syrian Civil War:

"Three hospitals in the Damascus area received approximately 3,600 patients displaying symptoms consistent with nerve agent exposure in less than three hours on the morning of August 21, according to a highly credible international humanitarian organization.

The reported symptoms, and the epidemiological pattern of events – characterized by the massive influx of patients in a short period of time, the origin of the patients, and the contamination of medical and first aid workers – were consistent with mass exposure to a nerve agent. We also received reports from international and Syrian medical personnel on the ground.

We have identified one hundred videos attributed to the attack, many of which show large numbers of bodies exhibiting physical signs consistent with, but not unique to, nerve agent exposure. The reported symptoms of victims included unconsciousness, foaming from the nose and mouth, constricted pupils, rapid heartbeat, and difficulty breathing.

Several of the videos show what appear to be numerous fatalities with no visible injuries, which is consistent with death from chemical weapons, and inconsistent with death from small-arms, high-explosive munitions or blister agents. At least 12 locations are portrayed in the publicly available videos, and a sampling of those videos confirmed that some were shot at the general times and locations described in the footage."

Regards

Pete

Ever thought about finding out whether the Syrian government actually gassed its citizens, given the well-established Yank form at the practice of FFCB, or False-Flag Causus Belli? Would it have been better if the Coalition of the Lying hadn't rushed into attacking Iraq in great haste to get in before the risk of UN inspectors blowing their FFCB story out? Ever stopped to wonder why the Yanks are in such a hurry to get the bombs flying at Syrian homes before the current inspectors report and the reports are subjected to real scrutiny?

Hurry-hurry-hurry! Where has that been heard before? Oh I know - Schnell-schnell-schnell!

Still, it must sound a lot more macho and "real" to call for a hanging whether the defendant did it or not, given the seriousness of the crime he's accused of. What is a real pity is that the executioners of few hundred thousand brown people will never be made to pay with their lives (as at Nuremberg) for the crime of aggression if it is shown later, as in the Iraq aggression, that they'd been lying their heads off.

are barbarians!
David G,
call them what you want but don't forget that they're the ones enabling the mollycoddling of the likes of you from cradle to grave.

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/disinformation-tactics-of-shills-online-trolls-zombies

wargasm*
http://whatreallyhappened.com/Original

http://rense.com/general96/basedonlies.html

http://investmentwatchblog.com/report-claims-war-by-saturday-uk-says-no-to-war-lies-and-half-truths-leading-to-another-bloodbath/

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY!
http://www.smoking-mirrors.com/2013/08/crank-up-that-new-and-improved-old.html

"Following Law of the Jews,
as laid out by the Jewish Sanhedrin..or the Learned Elders of Zion
*..to bring about World Domination..by the Jews for they have decreed,..

*'The Law must be fulfilled!'

That law is the establishment of the Kingdom of Adonai,
the Jewish Lord of the Universe, built upon the ruins of all old civilizations."

-- Adolphe Cremieux, Founder of Alliance Israelite Universelle,
The Manifesto of 1869, published in the Morning Post, September 6, 1920

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/08/britain-france-canada-and-every-other-country-say-no-to-syrian-attack-u-s-isolated.html

Pete, no one doubts that some Syrian citizens have been gassed. Who did it is unknown.

The U.S., an infamous, war-loving nation, was shown to have manufactured evidence to support its wish to invade and crush Iraq to get access to its oil. Powell was the liar in that situation.

Kerry is the liar now. While the U.S. tries to justify itself in attacking Syria, millions of people who live in the region are trembling in fear. They know what the Americans are capable of.

They know about Vietnam, about Nagasaki and Hiroshima, about Abu Graib and Guantanamo, about rendition and waterboarding, about depleted uranium and Agent Orange, about American troops pissing on corpses, about drone attacks and follow-up attacks minutes after while those who survived the maelstrom tried to help the survivors.

The Middle East knows all about America. That's one of the reasons it's so hated.

Our Foreign Minister has already given full support to the U.S. in this its next exercise in imperialism. He is a moron! Even Britain has more backbone and that's saying something.

People are going to die, Pete, hundreds of thousands of them. They include women and children just like you and your family.

The world must stand against war and condemn the warmongers who profit from war.

Will you stand with us?

Attack on Syria - perhaps 9 hours from now.

A significant determinant on the timing of the attack on Syria is the weapons inspectors leaving.

They left early - 6 hours ago http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10277868/UN-weapons-inspectors-leave-Syria-earlier-than-planned.html

I think the first 5 minutes of the attack will be very busy with the cyber malware mixed with EW including EMP weapons mounted on cruise missile as well as faster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARM.

Typically attacks happen at sunset or after. Damascus gets dark in 9 hours time - when the attack might well start.

Any war is bad including the Syrian Civil War which was started in Syria two and a half years ago.

Thanks for your reply, Pete. It read like a report on a Seniors Golf Day. It dismissed my plea entirely!

Are you totally devoid of emotion or feeling? Is war for you just a game of chess?

David I'm more emotional than you know.

But I have a right to disagree with your calling.

This is a democracy. I'm agreeing to disagree with you and hope you might do the same.

My main calling is to channel information like that above for no government but for people who want to read it.

Have you heard of journalism?

I'm currently reading a novel by Robert Little called "The Revolutionist". You'd do well to read it. It illustrates that life is complex and, no-one, you or I, is right.

So I'm returning to reporting and analysing news.

Signing off

Pete

The bottom line is that more than a thousand people have died through the use of chemical weapons.

WHOEVER deployed such weapons, should be punished so that they, or anybody else, do not try the same thing again.

Is that agreed ?

IF the criminals are the secular-democrats, or the Islamists, in Syria, then is it agreed that they should be punished ? Yes/no ?

If the criminals concerned are the forces of the Assad dictatorship, then they should be punished so that they don't repeat their crime. Yes/no ?

So we wait for the verdict. Personally, I hope that either way, the Yanks fly a few of their CMs into the camps and headquarters of al-Nusra and other pro-al-Qa'ida groups.

Ironically, I suspect that the final outcome of all of this will be an uneasy alliance between the secular-democrats and the Assad dictatorship. The road to democracy is going to be very long and very hard. But it will not be travelled by, or with, the Islamists.

Joe

9 hours and counting, I doubt it. Obama is on the out now.

He will be pressured from within and from without, but I doubt he is going to make such a serious mistake.

If he does, well it may as well be goodbye US of A, the hypocrisy will be so evident it will stink for a long time to come.

One has to question what the red line really is? Do the other 200,000 odd dead not count or is it really about justification for a wider agenda, I would suggest the latter, and who will pay in the long run, certainly not the general population of the West, to its continued shame.

Do I support Assad, no, but I also do not agree with the interference that is occurring, especially noting the immoral meddling of the US, UK, France, Germany, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and most importantly Israel.

It beggar's belief that any strike, whether fast and small or slow and long, will have any real prevailing good on the greater ME.

Geoff

The Yanks lied to us over Iraq. It fooled a lot of people though not anyone with two or more neurones to rub together, enough flickers of consciousnesses to notice their rejection of the chance to complete an inspection and examine the results.

Now the self-proven liars are telling us another story that would hardly fool a toddler - that they - the Yanks of all people! - are so horrified at the use of poison gas they they have to open a war against Syria. Just a lesson, mind, no intention to go on and clear Assad's regime out of the wreckage and install one of their own as in Iraq and Libya.

A very wise saying: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me over and over again, I'm shameless.

David Geek and other closet Nazis are happy for hundreds of thousands of innocent to be maimed, gassed and killed as long as it is not done by the imperialists.

The question on most sane people's minds is whether the developed world has any responsibility to protect people from the brutality of their self appointed leaders or not.

If the answer is yes, then an unambiguous message needs to be sent. If not, then change the channel and let Assad and his thugs fire up the rockets and the ovens in peace.

Let's see if I got this right.

The Hashemites hate the Saudis, and the Shiites hate the Sunnis (and vice versa.) The PLO hates HAMAS, and it also hates Hezbollah because Hezbollah does not hate HAMAS enough. The Iranians who are Shiites support Hezbollah and they also support the Allowites who hate the Sunnis. The Sunnis hate the Saudis because the Saudis are Wahabbis who hate the Iranians because they are Shiites, even though the Sunnis hate the Shiites themselves. The Muslim Brotherhood hates the Shiites and they support Hezbollah even though Hezbollah is Shiite who are supported by Shiite Iran. The Baathists in Syria are Allowites and they hate the Baathists in Iraq becaue the Iraqi Baathists are Sunnis. The Iraqi Bathists hate the Syrian Baathists because they are Allowites.

And who is the real villain here? Well according to, Arjay, Emporer Julianne, Geoff of Perth, and David G. it is all the fault of the USA. Some weenies are even suggesting on OLO it must have been the USA that dropped the chemical bombs, and that the USA has used "mini nukes", and is trying to create an empire. Jesus Christ. What do these people use for brains?

Ain't multiculturalism grand? Let's create the same mess here and then we can blame the yanks or the Joos when it all goes pear shaped.

If the USA wanted an Empire it could do a lot better invading Australia instead of putting up with a bunch of violent religious fruitcakes who have no idea whatsoever on how to create successful, stable and prosperous societies. You couldn't give Afghanistan or Somalia away. The only good thing about Afghanistan, is that it makes a great training ground for the western military where our boys have fun genetically eradicating religious fundamentalism.

Lego,
These lovely people who can't get on with themselves let alone with others are now heading for Australia in boat after boat to run away from what ? themselves ? I doubt it very much because they're not off-loading their religious baggage which is the cause of it all. When you have people so superstitious & indoctrinated that they are incapable of any logic let alone any sense of community commitment & you offer them residency then you're effectively importing a gradual civil war.

LEGO,

The complex issues you raise and the inability of the suspects you nominate to comprehend such complexity is self evident. There is a pattern of a socio-educational problem.

These complex issues require analysis, context, relevance, research, knowledge of history, an understanding of geopolitics and a willingness to absorb information from various diverse perspectives in order to form a rational perspective.

For those who are unable to perform these tasks for themselves there is always “groupthink” as a fallback.

It seems that emotion acts as a filter that blocks any capacity to rationalize. Your nominees don’t actually “read” or “comprehend”, they just “feel”.

As an example, I’ve joined the speculation on this thread about what might transpire in Syria. In every single post I have made it clear that I do not support any military intervention in Syria. Yet incredibly we get this from David G;

<< Yeah, the missiles are about to start flying again and the U.S. Armament Manufacturers and their shareholders, and intellectually-compromised people like Spindog and Shadow Monster, are happy again >>.

Was the post actually read? No. Was it comprehended? No. Was the response rational? No. Did it suggest that the views expressed were from the “intellectually-compromised”? Yes. Were the names changed to reflect vilification? Yes. Did it miss the point completely? Yes. Did it reflect over simplistic thinking of very complex issues in order to make room for over simplistic groupthink solutions? Yes. And was it riddled with emotion, frustration and juvenile anger? Yes.

So when you ask the question << What do these people use for brains? >> The answer must be they don’t. Not because they don’t have a brain, I’m sure that they all have high intellects. But they are driven by emotion, they are intellectually lazy, they like being told what they already feel and they lack the investigative rigor of the socially balanced.

That said, they are often very entertaining.

Spindog, when you are in the bathroom by yourself and you look in the mirror at yourself who do you see? Choose only one!
1. Einstein?
2. God?
3. Hitler?
4. A gibbering cretin?

P.S. If you see more than one image, you should be running the Coalition!

P.S. If you see more than one image, you should be running the Coalition!
David G,
Ah, so that's why those who look into a fogged-up mirror vote Labor ?

DavidG,

I guess that all the closet holocaust deniers see a cross between god and Hitler. I guess you see a small mustache and a halo.

aint it great
to be talking..of other things

some great memorable put downs..[going to become classics[get copyright]

but im..laughing..[inside]..
thats better than..the inner crying

though now
in..fondness.of our ingrained differences


my eyes feel damp..
no matter what..its feeling good..good dammmp

lol
hitler..with a halo/...lol

hello?

What is Syria to us ? It's a small country, a long way away, and of little interest to Australia. Why should we antagonise more powerful countries like Iran and Russia, with whom we could have stronger interests ?

Yeah, right.

What was it that Dietrich Bonhoeffer said ? About how evil triumphs ?

But of course, David, that was then, this is now.

Despicable.

Joe

Onya Spindoc.

I am sure that Geoff of Perth, Emporer Julainne and David G all think that "The X Files" are a documentary. And as for Arjay, even his dog doesn't like him.

Shadowmonster, spindog, PullyerLego, LoudmouthPlus, Under One Clod, Individious, etc, admit that you just don't cut it.

Little Boys shouldn't try to mix it with the BIG BOYS. It can only end in tears and skinned knees.

Go back to Mummy now and she'll wipe your noses and change your nappies!

Cheers!

DavidGeek,

Good to see you departing suitably whipped. We don't need neo nazis here.

Should Australia be willing to assist the US in a Coalition on Syria?

Obama has had to delay a decision to teach Assad not to play with chemical weapons until Obama has more US political support in the form of a vote in Congress from 10 September (Australian time).

Obama also needs more support from other countries to form a Coalition. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/30/the-five-big-points-from-john-kerrys-speech-on-syria/

Such a Coalition is iffy given:

- the UK voted itself out.

- France wants to await the results the UN inspection first (which may take two weeks).

The US may call on Australia, Canada, Germany and other NATO countries in Europe to be part of the Coalition.

We have an excuse to delay saying yes/no until after 7 September.

Should Australia join such a Coalition?

OHH..i thought..we were finished

so..A Guide..To 30 Years..Of U.S. Military Strikes..Against Other Nations..as ordered..by the last five U.S. presidents..and the degree of international support...behind the actions.

http://www.orrazz.com/2013/08/a-guide-to-30-years-of-us-military.html
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/08/31/226867-the-united-states-of-america-stands-exposed-in-the-eyes-of-the-world/

Syrians..Claim Saudi-Supplied Rebels..Behind Chemical Attack
http://www.mintpressnews.com/witnesses-of-gas-attack-say-saudis-supplied-rebels-with-chemical-weapons/168135/

Rebels/local residents..in Ghouta..accuse Sultan of providing chemical weapons..to an al-Qaida/linked rebel group.
http://voiceofrussia.com/2013_08_31/Saudi-Prince-Bandar-delivered-Israeli-chemicals-to-Syrian-terrorists-Official-7578/

Skull..&*Bones..John Kerry/‘fails’ to provide..key evidence/in Syria
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/31/un-chemical-weapons-experts-pull-out-syria/

The most..infamous operation..was STUXNET,..intended to wreck /ran's nuclear power/fuel rod/processing plant,;;which escaped into the world..causing damage to factories..all over the globe,

and may even..have been
a contributing/factor..to the melt-down..at Fukushima.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/pview/2013/08/31/us-spy-agencies-mounted-231-offensive-cyber-operations-in-2011-documents-show.html

Of course,..every time....such a..US hacking attack/was detected, ABCNNBBCBSFOX were..always quick..to suggest..that it was Chinese..or Iranian hackers

Where did the defeat..of David Cameron’s..attempt to drag the UK..into an attack on Syria..come from?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-syria-war-is-another-banker-war-protest-it/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BeYxqHXE-I
http://stopwar.org.uk/news/cameron-and-the-crisis-of-the-project-for-the-new-american-century

And what..does it tell us..about imperial power today?
http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2013/08/putin-to-obama-present-your-evidence.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy6i1CfXTzE

yesterday..Kerry said,.."We know*..for three days*!*
..*before the attack[that]..the Syrian regime's..chemical weapons personnel..were on the ground..in the area making preparations...for the attack".

IF so..?..Then why didn't..US do something*..to stop it?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/08/30/government-assessment-syrian-government-s-use-chemical-weapons-august-21

Why didn't they..call the UNSC?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/war-within-72-hours-the-world-understands-that-the-american-people-are-being-zombified/

Why didn't they..call Russia..to stop it?

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/time-choosing/2013/aug/30/obamas-shameless-hypocrisy-executive-war-powers/

Why didn't they..issue a warning..*to the Syrian people?

http://www.infowars.com/america-totally-discredited/
The British government..said yesterday ..they were surprised
with what Kerry said..because they got no/advance knowledge..of what he said yesterday.

Kerry told..some other..outright lies
in his..speech yesterday,..[fake photos]
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_08_31/USs-Kerry-caught-using-fake-photos-to-fuel-Syrian-conflict-6127/

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-on-press-tv-president-obama-is-confused-about-p.html

The Washington Post..is trying to use
Edward Snowden's name..to re-sell the lie.that Obama got Osama.

But..if that were true,
why was it necessary..to flood the internet..with obviously faked photographs?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/howthefakewasmade.jpg

Common sense..says
if you have real pictures..of the real dead bin Laden,
you don't..*risk using fakes...US Senator Scott Brown..confirmed that the above..*was the image..*he was shown..as part of an official US government briefing..*to the Senate..Armed Services Committee.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/galleryoffakebinladens.php

The real..Osama bin Laden...died in late 2001.
The funeral..was reported..in the foreign press.
Benazhir Bhutto..confirmed he was dead..shortly before her own assassination.

Even FOX News..reported bin Laden..was dead,
then retracted..the story.

If this forum is representative of the Australian public - it seems a slight majority of Australians would not agree that Western military involvement in Syria is warranted.

Looks like the publics and many politicians of the UK, US and France are insufficiently convinced of a need to strike Syria. Obama is waiting for Congress to decide after 9 September and the French Government has decided to wait for the CW inspectors findings - taking 2 to 4 weeks.

The goal of "punishing Assad" is one thing but the problem remains - How to practically use military force to make a difference? to actually reduce the risk that chemical weapons will be used again?

I'm assuming (today anyway) Obama is letting the heat of the issue subside so the US won't be expected to do anything.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Phew, well we got the kids off to bed but I guess tomorrow’s another day?

From my perspective I hope Obama is going cold on any strike against Syria, so too the French and the POMS.

My take on this is that the big threat to the West is the creeping alignment in the ME with Russia and China, which threatens both the resources and strategic geo-political status quo of the West. This possibly explains their reluctance to walk away.

Perhaps it is time for the Russians, Chinese and the UN to do the heavy lifting. Let them come up with the solutions for a change. Let them face the global criticism, let them try to get resolutions through the UN Security Council and face the veto, let their electorates carry the financial burden of being the worlds’ policeman and let them face the challenges of an out of control sectarian conflict where there are no winners.

The West has been carrying the public angst of the losses inflicted on our Armed Forces so perhaps it is time to say OK, over to you, see if you can do any better.

Disengagement is only a real threat to the West if the East thinks it can actually do better, let them have a crack at it

Hi spindoc

Yes wouldn't it be great if Russia and China were as liberal internationalist as the US.

Not going to happen unfortunately. Authoritarian Russia and China may take some decades to be mature enough to act benignly.

I hold more hope for China than Russia.

Drawing from http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/29/9-questions-about-syria-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/?tid=pm_world_pop

Russia is Syria’s most important ally. Russia blocks the UN Security Council from passing anything that might hurt the Assad regime, which is why the US has to go around the UN if it wants to do anything.

Russia sends many weapons to Syria that make it easier for Assad to win militarily and will make it much harder if the outside world ever wants to intervene.

Putin feels warm and fuzzy about Assad because:

1. Russia’s last foreign military base is its naval/sigint base at Tartus

2. Russia still has a bit of a Cold War national insecurity, which makes it want to remain in alliance with its few remaining allies, like Syria.

3. Russia also hates the idea of “international intervention” against countries like Syria because it sees this as Cold War-style Western imperialism and ultimately a threat to Russia

4. Syria buys a lot of Russian military exports, Russia needs the money.

Iran support the Assad regime because Iran perceives Israel and the US as serious threats and uses Syria to protect itself, shipping arms through Syria to the Lebanon-based militant group Hezbollah.

Iran is already feeling isolated and insecure; it worries that if Assad falls it will lose a major ally and be cut off from its militant proxies, leaving it very vulnerable.

So far, it looks like Iran is actually coming out ahead: Assad is even more reliant on Tehran than he was before the war started.

Israel also has some agendas in quietly supporting Western airstrikes in the Middle East.

Pete, you really need to broaden your reading. Relying on the Washington Post is not going to advance your understanding and the points you cite are all contentious. There are a number of sources you could go to, including Robert Fisk of the Independent, Pepe Escobar of Asia Times and Juan Cole to name but three. All of them have a more nuanced view of US/Israeli policy in the Middle East.

One of the things that most concerns me about the preceding 12 pages of comments is that almost no-one seems to have the least idea of international law. The UN Charter provides only two possibilities for an armed attack upon a sovereign nation and neither of them exist here.

The so-called R2P doctrine is constantly misquoted. Even that "humanitarian" intervention requires the approval of the Security Council. Manifestly that is not going to happen.

There is also the rather fundamental principle that policy should be based on evidence. Although the Americans claim to have "evidence" that the sarin gas attacks were carried out by Assad's forces, they have not actually produced a shred of evidence to support that. By contrast, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the gas attacks were carried out by or on behalf of the so-called rebels.

It would also be a welcome change if commenters recognised that the Americans decrying chemical weapons attacks is the height of hypocrisy given their conduct in this field over the past 50 plus years. We share that hypocrisy. Where was the outrage for example, when the Israelis used chemical weapons in attacking Gaza?

The Syrian situation is enormously complex and that complexity is not elucidated by the overwhelming mass of comments on this thread.

Oh, OK James O'Neill. So, it is against international law for the yanks to stop Assad from dropping poison gas on civilians? Righto then. Then I suppose he can keep gassing them, can't he

The US Government..[in..the pocket of israel/lobby]..faces a severe crisis..of credibility..of their own making...And such a crisis..can only get worse..with a government trapped into perpetuating wars..and with no other option..than..to sell those wars...with..more lies and deception...

the peoples reaction
http://www.sott.net/article/265697-Time-lapse-map-of-worldwide-protests-since-1979-shows-major-increase-in-global-social-unrest

The US/israel Government's..are going to go ahead with the attack on Syria,and somehow..they need to drag Iran into it..in such a manner that..no excuses need be made..to the American people..expected to pay..and die for that war.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/08/eric-margolis/remember-us-war-crimes/

There is only one way..I can see..how they might do that..but before I get into..the details,let's take a quick look..at history.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/nextstepsyria.php

There is nothing new..in a government lying to their people..to start a war...Indeed because most people..prefer living in peace to bloody and horrific death in war,..

any government that desires..to initiate a war..usually lies..to their people..to create the illusion.that support for the war..is the only possible choice..they can make.

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_09_01/US-media-uses-psychological-programing-to-influence-public-opinion-on-Syria-7773/

President McKinley..told the American people that the USS Maine had been sunk..in Havana Harbor..by a Spanish mine...The American people, outraged by this apparent unprovoked attack,..supported the Spanish American War.

The Captain..of the USS Maine..had insisted the ship was sunk by a coal bin explosion,..and an investigation..conducted in 1975 by Admiral Hyman G. Rickover,..the father of the nuclear Navy, proved that such had indeed been the case.
http://www.steelnavy.org/history/items/show/149
*There had been no mine.

Hitler used this principle..of lying..to his own people many times..[recall crystal nacht]..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Gleiwitz_radio_station

to initiate..an invasion..he told the people of Germany that Poland had attacked first and staged fake attacks..*against German targets.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/poland.mp3
The Germans,..convinced they were being threatened,..followed Hitler into Poland and into World War 2.

FDR claimed Pearl Harbor..was a surprise attack.
It wasn't.

The United States saw war..with Japan as the means to get into war..*with Germany,..which Americans opposed...So Roosevelt needed Japan to appear to strike first.

Following an 8-step plan
http://whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/index.html

..devised by the Office of Naval Intelligence, Roosevelt intentionally provoked Japan..into the attack..he even held..the secret japanese code books.
http://investmentwatchblog.com/why-is-obama-terrified-to-wait-for-un-official-report-on-syria-chemical-attack-video/

gulf of tolkin
http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/TONKIN.html

complicity..all round
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/israel-deploys-nuclear-weapons-on-german-submarines-a-836671.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXixYE2C1A

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5984#171039

Dear James

I found some of your reading and views rather, would one say, simple.

Having discovered the genius of "Posted by David G, Sunday, 1 September 2013 11:28:46 AM"

I would suggest you peer into the looking glass and dub thee Option "4" - gibbering cretin.

Perhaps expose yourself

to the longer versions of "one under god's" all too brief posts

for all eternity :)

Yours

Edward I "Longhunk" Plantagenet

(noting Blanche's new book about my clan http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/books/middle-ages-love-is-a-battlefield-20130829-2stku.html ;-)

Whenever, in the past, the Yanks used poison gas against civilians, it was evil.

Can we all agree on that ?

Arise, ye workers from your slumber,
Arise, ye prisoners of want.

Right. So now, it is agreed that it is evil to use poison gas on civilians. Agreed ? Yes / no ?

For reason in revolt now thunders,
and at last ends the age of cant!

Is it also agreed that atrocities committed on small countries, far away, countries we have no major interests in, are evil ? Yes / no ?

Away with all your superstitions,
Servile masses, arise, arise!

So, do we keep turning a blind eye to atrocities, as we did in Pol Pot's Cambodia, or Rwanda in 1994, or do we support our fellow-human beings, and oppose and punish, if possible, those who would oppress them ? By extension, us ?

We'll change henceforth the old tradition,
And spurn the dust to win the prize!

As a rusted-on leftie, I'm appalled at the isolationist turn of right and left in this discussion. On a human scale, these are our brothers and sisters, and our own children, in this Syrian bloodbath. And so many of you want to sit it out and feck around about pissy gay marriage or 1 degree global warming. Shame on you.

So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.

Joe

No Loudmouth Joe, we do not agree that the USA has used "chemical weapons" on civilians. All bombs are composed of unstable "chemicals", but what you are implying is that HE bombs composed of "chemicals" equate with poison gas. That is a dishonest proposition, and it reveals the lengths that people like you will go to in embellishing the truth, so that it conforms to your twisted ideology which demonises the USA.

And your claim that "democratic forces" are fighting "fascist forces", makes me shake my head in pitying wonder. Adolph Hitler was democratically elected into power in Germany, does that make the Nazi Party a "democratic force"? What you have in Syria is a bunch of fascists fighting another bunch of fascists. We could just sit back and watch the fun except for one thing, the idiot Syrian regime under Assad insisted on creating an enormous stockpile of poison gas, and if the regime falls then those weapons will get into the hands of fruitcakes like HAMAS and Hezbollah.

And if they get them, they will use them, against Israel.

So what the shallow thinkers like yourself do not appreciate is that while the yanks may despise Assad for a lot of reasons, including his creation of a huge stockpile of chemical weapons, at least he was not stupid enough to use them on the Israelis. But his opponents are stupid enough to use them. And if they win they will use them. And there is going to be a hell of a war over that. The Israelis are very sensitive to the idea of being gassed to death. I don't know why.

So, what the yanks want to do is to destroy those poison gas stockpiles, one way or the other, before things get really nasty and a few million people get killed. Which makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, in the West, we have people who have been conditioned to believe that the USA is the Great Satan and they are unable to think straight. Everything is seen through the distorting lens of their peculiar ideology.

if force/violence could stop..evil..time has proven it dont
eye for eye for eye for eye..means we all gone blind..got our war blinders on.

yankies capital;ists..produce poisons..
like naplam..whichkilled MILLIONS of japs..plus vietnametc

israel/usa inc..research murder death
[by their works will we know them]..60 percent of usa industry..is in destroying things..[israel..aint far behind..

but the war isnt over till the killing ends
you dont stop..the murder with more murder

Pro-Israel contributions to members of Congress
http://maplight.org/us-congress/interest/J5100/view/all
And all those congress-critters pushing for war with Syria are up at the top of that list!

Judaism is a "Political Project"
http://henrymakow.com/2013/08/Psychopathology-of-Judaism.html

"The "peace" which Israel intends to confer is no more and no less than "genocide," the warrant for the execution of all humanity - except for those allowed to live as culture-less slaves." - Herve Ryssen

According to Rysssen,..a French National Front member and former history professor,
Jewish "Messianism" is a happy face for the NWO.

http://beyondprophecy.blogspot.ca/p/hot-news.html
"Peace"..means the end of all resistance*..to their tyranny.

so lets STOP RESISTING..
ie dont fight back..no matter what

eye for eye=we all loose
let the wars stop..death is only part of living

WE ALL DIE
some earlier..some later./.but die..we all shall do
and once your dead..we realise..how much living did you do?

did we respect..our own..*gift of living
by murder of other..can we explain..why we killed..
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/nearly-90-syria-rebels-killed-48-hours

why we only lived to kill?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGQaH3-LK54#t=23

even our hired guns have had ENOUGH*
http://rt.com/usa/us-against-syria-strike-313/

should we kill those WHO REALLY DID IT?
http://my.telegraph.co.uk/debatableopinion/debatableopinion/16/u-s-intelligence-agencies-involved-in-chemical-attack-in-syria/
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/silenced-twa-800-and-the-subversion-of-justice/

or keep killing scape goats?

stop killing!

Of course, Obama will say and do ANYTHING
to get the attention of the conference away from BRIC countries,

who are now advocating replacing
the US dollar as the sovereign world currency.
http://rianovosti.com/world/20130901/183101508/Obama-to-Use-G20-Summit-for-Justifying-Syria-Attack--Pushkov.html

I appreciate the depth of frustration that must exist in the tiny, cold hearts of those who can't wait for the U.S. to bomb Syria. They crave the killing, the destruction, the illusion that good is triumphing over evil. Problem is they can't recognize evil especially if it's wrapped in an American flag!

After all, how dare Syria use WMDs! Only the U.S. is allowed their use! They can use napalm, nukes, depleted uranium, white phosphorous, cluster bombs, etc, to their heart's content and everyone should cheer! Of course, they're the 'goodies' at least according to that gigantic intellect, Phoney Abbott!

There are some sick people around, people who said nothing when Israel engaged in Operation Cast Lead and killed 1400 Palestinians including 400 children but they condemn completely and utterly those who used gas in Syria and caused the same number of casualties.

Don't worry, war-lovers. The U.S. will act and you'll have your fun and the world will move ever closer to its end!

David,

NOBODY should be allowed to use weapons of mass destruction, certainly not poison gas. The question is, what should peace-loving forces in the world propose to do about their use against defenseless civilians ? The answer seems to be: nothing.

So we all pull back into our little isolationist shells ? Hard hearts all right. So internationalism is well and truly dead on the Left ?

LEGO,

If you had read past my first sentence, you would see that I mostly agree with you. Even that first sentence did not concede that the Yanks HAD ever used poison gas, only that if it had done so, it would have been as evil as any other country using it.

As for fascist and democratic forces, yes, in this incredibly complex situation, there are fascists fighting fascists, but on the anti-Assad side, apart from the various terrorist groups, there are a range of democratic forces, some pro-US, some much more Left-wing - the head of one major faction was a Communist, after all.

In my simple mind, I see the Assad forces and the various terrorist forces as all extreme Right-wing (one of Assad's coalition allies is the National Socialist Party), and the tiny democratic forces as Left-wing, or encompassing some progressive and left-wing factions - sorry, that's just me.

So, the world does nothing ? Here's a hypothetical, for what's it's worth: suppose, twenty years ago, the Yanks had had a major base in Kenya and the Rwanda genocide had begun. Would we have advised the Yanks to sit idly by and not get involved ?

Before the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, most of the US population didn't want to get involved in the war against Nazism.

What would you have advised them, dear reader ?

Joe

joe..i can..feel..your frustration
but see..war is a destraction
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/6-important-stories-silenced-by-syria.html

there will be..no winner*
Russia has sold Syria..highly advanced rocket/launchers, anti-aircraft missiles..and anti-ship missiles...[the usa canonly loose[then..israel-lies win]..previous link
http://investmentwatchblog.com/russia-has-equipped-syria-with-their-most-advanced-anti-ship-missiles/

but recall..in Rwanda..they had to..stop killing..
because of outside pressures...ie diplomicy..not bombs

[it also proved...EVEN boots..*on the ground..didnt end it]
catchup..with the root cause of much of the ONGOING murder
http://www.jewwatch.com/

Give Diplomacy..a Chance,
Stop Fighting and Start Talking
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5126

cooking up evi-dense?
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/cooked-up-evidence-trying-to-fool-the-public-over-syria/64760/

in an..insane world
even..retaining sanity.. means becoming insane
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5133

[ignorance is bliss]
http://libertycrier.com/military-members-speak-syrian-war-anonymous-meme/

Anderson Cooper and CNN
have been caught staging fake news..about Syria to justify military intervention.
http://therebel.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=685710:cnn-caught-staging-news-segments-on-syria-with-actors&catid=115:mideast&Itemid=1222&acm=733_675
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/cooked-up-evidence-trying-to-fool-the-public-over-syria/64760/
we are showing..that the mainstream media
version of events..is scripted and staged propaganda.

The following video..shows him contradicting himself..while off air, and even asking crew members.to “get the gunfire sounds ready” for his video conference..with Anderson Cooper on CNN.

http://hackersnewsbulletin.com/2013/09/exclusive-pentagon-may-involved-chemical-attack-syria-us-intelligence-colonel-mail-hacked.html

By pointing out..that the mainstream media is orchestrating..their entire coverage of this incident,..we are not denying that there is a tremendous amount of death and violence in Syria right now.
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2013/09/01/obama-and-the-global-intifada/

the real fight will begin
between special interests (AIPAC and NSA to name two)
pressuring Congress to legitimize Obama's next war.. and We The People who are tired of paying for and fighting those wars.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/11-Reasons-Why-We-Should-N-by-Sarah-van-Gelder-Attack_Intervention_Killing_Syria-130830-285.html

If we do not chose to fight against these warmongers..now, we will soon have no choice..but to fight for the war-mongers from now on.
http://bit.ly/14QartJ

who next?
http://politicalvelcraft.org/2013/08/28/hungary-orders-rothschilds-imf-to-vacate-the-country-now-issuing-debt-free-money/

what next
http://tomatobubble.com/war_for_israel.html
http://www.isidewith.com/article/this-is-why-corporate-america-wants-high-unemployment
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/video-salon-attacks-ron-paul-infowars-for-calling-out-syrian-false-flag-attack/64769/
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5135
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5129
http://strikedebt.org/how-far-to-free/
on the dangers of a wounded beast

As the globalist staged poison gas attack info explodes world wide and as humanity awakens, we must be on the look out for the empire to strike back.

They can not let the public fully come to the realization of staged terror. Because then the corrupt ruling class can no longer grab more power by killing people and framing their enemy's.

We are approaching the event horizon! Red alert! We can cause a paradigm shift or let the globalist counter strikes crush us.

Fight back with words
or be dehumanized...by worse works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCXixYE2C1A

"...what should peace-loving forces in the world propose to do about their use against defenseless civilians ?"

Joe, surely you are not including the Yanks in the ranks of the 'peace-loving forces.' Since WW2, the Yanks have killed millions. Sure, they claim they are seeking peace while they wage endless war and profit from it.

How many more millions will they kill before the world wakes up and sees what they are engaged in: a quest for global domination!

from
http://henrymakow.com/2013/08/Psychopathology-of-Judaism.html

Judaism..is essentially..a political project.

Judaism..is not merely..a "religion,"..as many Jews are overt/atheists or..agnostics,..and they do not consider themselves..less Jewish for all that.

It is important.for Jews..to work toward
the emergence..of a world at "peace,"..[by their terms]

a peace..meant to be universal..and permanent...It is therefore..not a coincidence..that this word "peace"..*(shalom in Hebrew)
is found frequently..in Jewish discourse..worldwide.

In the perfect..[muchsmaller].l*world..
that they..are building,..All conflicts will disappear..*between the nations...

This is why Jews..have been militating..tirelessly..for many years for..the abolition of all borders,..the dissolution of national identities..and the establishment..of a global empire of "peace." T

The very existence..of separate nations..is considered to be responsible..for the triggering of wars and turmoil...so they must be weakened..and eventually replaced by..a world government.. a "one world government,"..a "New World Order,"

THE*one single..world-ruling authority..
that will permit*..happiness and prosperity to reign,..EVENTUALLY>>lol..under Jewish domination,.on earth... [Makow- Of course..they initiate..the wars..that serves as the rationale..for this one world government.]

The members..of the Jewish sect..are the most proselytizing/involved people..on earth,..but unlike Christians..or Muslims,..who dream of converting all peoples of all races..to their faith,

the Jews have no plan..to convert the world to..their own faith, Judaism, but simply..to encourage other nationalities..to give up their national and religious identities,,..and live only for the goal of "tolerance."

by their works..we see they fail

The unceasing campaigns..to blame all Whites for slavery,sexism/nationalism/diversion.division/ colonialism,..
the plundering of the Third World..or for Auschwitz..have no other purpose..than putting the opponent on the defensive,

and getting him
on his knees..not by violence..but via guilt.

When the Jews are the only people..left on earth
who are keeping their faith..and their traditions,..they will finally be recognized by everyone as God's "chosen people."
http://www.jewwatch.com/

Their "mission" (and Jews frequently use this term "mission")..is to disarm the other peoples,..to dissolve anything which is not Jewish or Jewish-controlled,..to grind the people down to a powder for making a new identity-free work force,[the perfect commie]..

capitalist gain
solialist bailout
]and thus to favor a universal "peace"..among the peoples
who have no more.."divisive"..free thinking identities.

Anyone who expresses an opinion on this while incurious over who made the gas attack is a poor excuse for a human being. Accepting without close, sceptical scrutiny the word of the USA - liars proven again and again and spectacularly demonstrated in 2003 - counts as incuriosity.

What would I advise the yanks to do, Loudmouth Joe? Stop saving everybody else's asses because they don't get much gratitude for their efforts.

The USA was Isolationist prior to WW1and WW2, and the Euros had to beg them to intervene and "kill millions" to get the Euros out of the poo. Today the Western Eurotrash can hardly say a good word about the Americans. Oddly enough, it the Poles, Latvians and Czechs think that their western cousins are stupid in their hatred of the USA. For forty years East European countries looked to the USA as their saviours from Soviet Communist tyranny. The Yanks saved Australia's ass in 1941 and today we have got intellectually challenged misfits on OLO who sit around dreaming up anti US conspiracy theories that are so wacky that they are more a help to people like me than their own side.

Trying to be neutral early this century got the yanks nothing because they were bombed into WW2 by the Japs. They now take a pro active stance to defence. Some moron on this thread claimed that the yanks wanted to get into the war. That's funny, the entire US army's inventory of tanks in 1940 consisted of two old WW1 French tanks. If they wanted to get in on the war, one might concluded that they would have been better prepared for it.

If you knew a bit of history you would know that the UN tried to get the yanks to "intervene" in Rwanda but the yanks would have none of it. The UN begged the yanks to go Somalia and protect the UN food convoys who were being extorded by the local warlords only to find that the people that they were helping to feed hated their guts. One US Colonel was famously quoted as saying "all we are doing is to feed them so they can fight us." Somalia must be full of David G clones and Loudmouth clones.

Rwanda. Ain't multiculturalism wonderful?

Joe,, using Japan is not a good example. It is true that the majority of Americans did not want to be involved in WW2. Roosevelt set out to change that. He instructed his staff to draw up a plan that would inevitably result in Japan attacking the US. That plan was drawn up and all eight points followed. Pearl Harbor was the result. Read Robert Stinnett's book, Day of Deceit for all the details.

At the end of the war Japan was suing for peace. The US refused to negotiate because they wanted to test their new nuclear weapons, one uranium and one plutonium. Civilian cities were chosen for maximum terror effect. Again the details are now well documented. People like Lego might prefer their fantasy history but the real world is rather different.

As others have already noted, the world's greatest purveyor of terror, responsible for more deaths than any other country post 1945, and more than willing to use chemical weapons, is the US. Read Scahill's Dirty Wars and Turse's Kill Anything That Moves (both 2013) for details on just some of these wars.

It's morning Lindsay Graham, a leading Senate hawk, said that the US has to bomb Syria to send a message to Iran. Try as one might, it is impossible to reconcile this with "punishing Syria" for alleged chemical weapons use, much less the other justifications that many of the commenters on this thread have advanced. Their stupidity, frankly, is matched only by the stupidity of the Americans themselves.

The following is a quote from former diplomate Bruce Haigh writing in this morning's Crikey. It contains more truth and common sense than most of what one reads on this subject:

"This is a unique opportunity for Australia to demonstrate some creative leadership of the UNSC. It is open to the new president to refer the issue of Syrian transgressions to the UN General Assembly, which would allow for free and open debate. Thus far there has been no mention from the US of seeking to work through the UN for a possible solution. Critics of the UN and those favouring a direct US attack are quick to cite the ineffectiveness of the UN, but undermining and bypassing the organisation creates self-fulfilling outcomes.

The power of dialogue, networking, influential connections and on-the-ground information-gathering has been subsumed by a belief that outcomes favouring the US can best be achieved by electronic surveillance and the use of force.

Obama’s 'solution' is bereft of imagination and subtlety. It is a frustrated, angry response from a tired and diminished superpower ...

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, likely to be prime minister after Saturday's election, said on the ABC's Insiders on Sunday and again on 7.30 last night that he did not favour an armed response along the lines being mooted by the US administration. After Saturday he might seek to give Quinlan the brief he needs to demonstrate Australian leadership and diplomatic mettle. Such leadership might help get America out of the bind it has created for itself and force a measure of respect for Australia hitherto lacking in the bilateral relationship.

Continued below

Bruce Haigh continued:

Australia should not feel compelled to support the Obama administration's planned intervention, which many of America's close allies have refused. The British Parliament voted against support for such a course of action, and Obama could struggle to secure approval from his own Congress. French President Francois Hollande is seeking armed intervention but says France will not act alone.

Obama's moral authority against a leader who has allegedly used sarin gas is diminished when set against his administration's use of drones over the past six years in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Yemen, which have killed as many if not more civilians, including women and children, than the Syrian nerve gas attack.

Obama’s "solution" is bereft of imagination and subtlety. It is a frustrated, angry response from a tired and diminished superpower, intent on demonstrating that it still has the strength to determine international outcomes. On past performance a US attack on Syria, however much is claimed for weapons capable of delivering payloads with surgical precision, is likely to kill civilians.

If a punitive attack, which has been referred to as a shot across the bows, fails to deter the Assad regime from further nerve gas attacks on Syrian civilians, does the US then up the use of force and if so by how much? This is poor strategy, one fraught with danger and one which the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan appear already lost or not taken on board. It also carries the possibility of conflict spreading in the Middle East, with Israel looking for an excuse to attack Syrian ally Iran."

To Emperor Julian

By saying that the Americans are compulsive liars, you have just committed an act of racism.

LEGO by ignoring some facts you obviously don't want to believe as espoused by me and James O'Neill makes you ignorant.

Tit for Tat serves little purpose, the point of OLO is to put forward 'facts' and have people consider them in light of the article written.

You do not do this and therefore make yourself that little less relevant when replying to your statements.

Geoff

Interesting watching OLOers fight 1940s battles. There seems to be great difficulty sticking with a current issue at hand - which started in early 2011.

Seems that the more radical one's political beliefs the more one sees those who don't agree with you as communists, fascists, imperialists or just plain wrong.

Most people are middle ground with mixed views and that includes around 1.6 billion Muslims and 340 million Americans.

Returning to topic:

There appears to be majority public and parliamentary OPPOSITION to a US or coalition Western strike against Syria.

This is definitely known in the UK and highly likely at present in the US, France and, I would say, Australia. Politicians may attempt to swing those who can be swung in favour of a Western strike.

Interesting that Bruce Haigh has knowingly disregarded more than 2 years of efforts by the US, UK and French to persuade Russia and China (the other 2 permanent UN Security Council (P5) members) to agree to UN peace-keeping efforts in Syria

- or to agree to a ceasefire.

One would expect more from "former diplomat" Brucey.

For their own interests Russia and China have simply blocked peace efforts in Syria.

Pete

"For their own interests Russia and China have simply blocked peace efforts in Syria," says Pete the journalist. Shock. Horror.

Fancy them doing that! No other nation would do that, surely! They should take America's lead and remove all self-interest agendas from their must-do list.

If they don't, the U.S. might nuke them!

For their own good of course!

Ok, here is an old one for Pete and LEGO.

Suddenly we have a poor woman whom claims that her children have been stolen 'kidnapped if you will' and taken to Malaysia by her husband who has a problem with Western democracy and the way things work.

Reality, we have a former wife of a Malaysian prince, one who holds considerable sway within the then Malaysia government.

The then Australian Prime Minister, Paul Keating, has just made a hash of relations with Malaysia by calling the leader a 'recalcitrant', this leader then threatens to sever ties with Australia in terms of foreign trade.

DFAT or the then foreign relations board go into overdrive and attempt to correct a political disaster"

Result, The Australian Federal Police basically 'kidnap' the children involved, the AFP transport the children to an Australian Naval Base (Cairns) and ensure they are escorted out of the country and transferred to a Malaysian naval vessel in international waters.......suddenly the Political problem re trade is negated, everyone seems happy and no-one is the wiser to what really happens.

Years later the mother, JG, releases a book, 'Once was a Princess' and everyone is satisfied with the story.

Sorry but there is too much to really tell in this tale, but this goes to the heart of foreign relations and what the public are really told.

LEGO and his mates accept the MSM and what they are told.

Story over. Unfortunately those of us in the know, understand the truth.

Nothing is simple and your blatant bias against the truth spells trouble for those of us who understand what really goes on.

Get aboard the alien ship to reality and understand what you read and what you are told are quite often the opposite of what really happens in foreign relations.

I could go on, but unfortunately I have signed documents that preclude me from saying too much that would counter the status-quo.

Geoff

Another international incidence that is little understood or comprehended in the broader scale of things.

Marcos is gone, the Philippines is now on a path to democracy and western security.....wrong.

Six days prior to Mr Aquino returning to the country the US and Australia are clearly warned he would be assassinated at the airport on his arrival.

Result, a dead politician who probably could have done a great many things for his country.

Truth, well lets not think about this too hard, the politician involved did not intend to serve the services of the US and their allies, result.............assassination.

Did we know it was going to happen, damn yes, did we do anything about it........damn no....the only question is why?

Do I need to go on......I think not......perhaps LEGO and his blind-folded follower's should consider the bigger picture and comprehend the murky world of geopolitics.

Ready to stand corrected on any of the above. I was involved and stood by passively and said nothing........complicit, yet, agree with it, no.

Nuff said.

Geoff

David G.

Don't you have any views that are not extreme and rabidly anti-American?

Life is more complex than your black armband views.

I thought you'd be happy with my earlier comment:

"There appears to be majority public and parliamentary OPPOSITION to a US or coalition Western strike against Syria."

Obama hasn't gone to war in Syria - doesn't that make you happy?

@Geoff

I'm not across the issues you've raised. But would be interested in your views about Obama's shrewd strategy to make Congress decide whether to strike Syria.

Pete

Hi Pete,

I think there are a number of variables in play.

Obama has had a serious rethink on 'going it alone', despite his rhetoric in relation to doing what he believes is right.

The extreme right in US politics is probably looking to impeach.

The evidence to date remains clearly unconfirmed, yet plausible that the Assad regime are the perpetrators, evidence and clear justification is what is missing.

The longer-term view is also being considered, despite the MSM and the goading of those who wish to see a pre-emptive strike by the US.

Do I think they will do something, absolutely, US global status is at stake, the only problem lies with Russia and China.........two countries yet to swallow the red pill.

The outcome is fluid and most likely changing by the moment, one that very few understand.

Is Assad going to capitulate, damn no, not after Obama blinked.

Iran is smiling and the rest of the radicals are seeing this as an opportunity to capitalise on the US holding fire......for the moment anyway.

Longer term it is going to be geopolitical. What is Russia and China's position on the threat, what will Iran make of the slight back-down.......difficult to say, but in terms of a military strike it smacks of a much lesser threat in terms of regime change in Syria.

Longer term I would surmise a return to the UN and attempts to bring evidence and sanctions that will try to reign in the Syrian regime, ultimately failing because of Russian backing.

Iran will see this as an opportunity and perhaps consider upping the ante, whether this comes to pass is anyone's guess at this point.

Stay tuned and keep abreast of exactly what everyone says, a very difficult international situation that could quite quickly dissolve into an international conflict that no-one has yet contemplated.

At the very least Assad will be emboldened and whether or not this places him in a good or bad place is yet to be determined

My two cents worth

Geoff

Struth, I thought that Arjay was bad enough, but now some evil genius has cloned him and named the clones "Geoff of Perth" and "James O'Neill".

So far, both of you agree that the USA and Israel have used "chemical weapons" in Syria. O'Neill trumped Geoff when he claimed that the USA trains Al Qaida. Only then did the pair of them go right off with the fairies.

Both claimed that the USA wanted the Japs to bomb Pearl harbour and that the yanks conspired to bring that about. James went one better and claimed that the yanks knew that the Japs wanted to surrender but they dropped a couple of atom bombs on them anyway, because they wanted to test their new weapons. Although Geoff tried to outbid James when he claimed that South Vietnam actually attacking North Vietnam, instead of the other way around.

Their methodology seems to consist of taking every incident that ever happened in the history of the world and finding some way to make it look as if the yanks are doing something insidious. Facts can be made to fit the theory with a bit of judicious pushing and shoving.

Older people like myself have often wondered how it is that educated and supposedly intelligent tertiary educated people could for decades claim that the USA was evil and that the Soviet Union and Communism was the hope and light of the world? Especially since every socialist country on planet Earth was essentially a giant prison camp. But I see that with Arjay, James, Geoff and David G, this mindset is still fashionable thinking among some strange people in the west.

I am sorry that the USA has not bombed Syria yet so that the lot of you can scream how this is proof positive of US aggression. But I know that whatever the yanks do, you will find some way to suggest that their intent is self serving. If they bomb Syria, they are wrong. If they do not bomb Syria, they are wrong. No matter what the yanks do, they are always wrong

PullYerLego, the world seems to be divided into two groups:

a very large group that are still living in 1945 when Yanks were hailed as the 'Saviours of the World', a claim made by them, a claim that failed to take account of the efforts of Russia;

and a very small group of people who live in 2013 who have the intellectual horsepower to see through American propaganda that seeks to hide their quest for world domination.

PYL, ask yourself why the U.S. has military bases all over the world and battle fleets? Ask yourself why it engages in endless wars? Ask yourself why it engages in rendition and torture? Ask yourself why it keep people in cages? Ask yourself why it uses depleted uranium, clusterbombs and chemical WMDs? Ask yourself why it supports dictators and corrupt Kings?

And most, importantly, ask yourself why is it trying to handicap China and why is it gaining a military foothold in Australia if not to use us as a pawn in its imperial game?

Pete the journalist, like you, cannot see what is before his eyes either. He, like most others, sees what he wants to see.

I see what the U.S. is trying to do is no better than what the NAZIS tried to do all those years ago!

The only difference is that the Yanks are more duplicitous and cunnning.

its a sad thing
im noting kerry called to TESTIFY*
[but third hand witness is here/say..he can only testify..HEARSAY

thats the usa standard of proof?
sounds more like heresy..of a heretic...
[to wit treason..on top of false WITNESS
warmongeringit seems..is..so inept..so witless

look we know..in the end=peace..via many broken pieces
lets just declare israel wins[we surrender]..nostate..agreed

one world governance..fine
do what you will..but no more kill..*!*

peace..shalom..
tell your masters..WE MEAN IT*

There are small portions of ultra left whingers who suffer from deliberate amnesia.

After WWII American put in place the Marshall plan to rebuild the economies of Europe and Japan, set up democracies and relinquished control of the areas it captured. The USSR set about installing puppet dictators and secret police in all the areas it occupied, and sent millions to its death camps in Siberia.

Russia's efforts are remembered, but not with any gratitude.

Hi Geoff, LEGO and David G and "one under god" (the poet)

A poll, released by WashPost, indicates most of the US public oppose strikes against Syria http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/09/03/most-in-u-s-oppose-syria-strike-post-abc-poll-finds/ that's the good news.

The bad news is that in the last 12 hours the Obama Administration have probably convinced most in one part of Congress (the US House of Reps) that strikes are warranted. As the House is Republican dominated (normally opposed to anything Obama does) the House may be the hardest nut to crack.

Obama now needs to convince the Democrat majority Senate. If he does convince most in the Senate (and the House formally votes on 9 and 10 Sept in favour of strikes) then the strikes would be on.

The US would currently be lobbying-pressuring allies to be ready to form a coalition to support US and French action. US coalition building for strikes might rope in Australia to provide largely symbolic military support.

The most visible type of Australian military support would likely be the frigate HMAS Newcastle currently deployed just off the Middle East

HMAS Newcastle is deployed as part of "Operation SLIPPER, the Australian Defence Force contribution to the international campaign against terrorism, smuggling and piracy in the Gulf of Aden, and for enhancing regional maritime security and engagement."

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Sep2013/Operations/363/A-view-from-the-other-side.htm#.UiaUB51-_X4

Pete

pete..we know the war posturing..is regarded as a fail safe
that avoids us..thinking of the other issues..

[as with 911..its again the same issue]..cash flow..within..a deliberate bubble..prior to hyper inflation..

a war to re focus expenditure
so that more real control..falls into the hands of the few

as i see it..we cant..buy..say
the real gold..but can..bet if it goes up..or down
its much the same for shares..youdont actually 'get' the share
it was mortgaged by the house of settlements..

who affectingly..ONLY control..the debt..
and lists who rents a possibility..of share inthe morgaged debt owed

there is no more..true real owning
just like the days of old..when the gold certificates..issued..
was hundred fold the real gold..we then saw..money..issued by bankof england..[one third of which was bought by a tally-stick

guy faulks..the lawyer
was trying to destroy..the tally sticks..to play hide thefraud

also is remembered bail-in/fractional reserve lending etc etc
then..most of these so called junk bonds are interest rate sensitive

but even that..dont begin to show how deep..the scam goes

but lets see..what the tide brings in

<<As for the final result..of the Messianic revolution..it will always be the same...the nations will be converted to Judaism and will obey the law,>>

which law?
eternal spirit law..or man made lore?

<<or else they will be destroyed,..and the Jews will be the masters of the world."(G. Batault, Le probleme juif, p.135;..The Secret Powers Behind Revolution,by Vicomte Leon de Poncins, pp.203204)>>

It is obvious..that the war party is desperate to continue their agenda of "Dollarification" of the world;..to force resources rich nations to sell those resources..*only for the dollar as part of a larger plan..to re-impose the Bretton Woods agreement back onto the world,

even as the rest of the world..starts to move away from the failing dollar...How desperate are they?..Probably just as desperate as Roosevelt was..to trick the US into WW2,..or Johnson to trick us into war with Vietnam.

UPDATE:..in light of Israel's firing of missiles..in the eastern Mediterranean earlier today.

Although claimed..to have been an unannounced test,..the fact is that military tests..are always announced ahead of time to allow civilian shipping..and aviation to get out of the test area.

So what it looks like..to me is Israel..fired those missiles hoping to provoke Assad..into firing on the US fleet,..to get the war going.

Fortunately,..Assad didn't fall for it.

However, I don't think Israel..will quit after this failure.

I don't think Netanyahu..is willing to risk a vote..on Congress...So I am expecting Israel..to try again to get the war with Syria going.

Israel may use their Dolphin submarines..to fire a torpedo at the US ships..and blame it on Syria...Israel could,..in the worst case, launch a nuclear-armed cruise missile..and destroy several ships,..then claim Iran..gave a nuclear weapon to Syria.

But those pushing war are desperate.
The usual tactic..of lies to the public..to invent a cause for war is not working any more..in this age of the internet.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/a-century-of-lies-the-rationales-for-in-foreign-wars-a-century-old-white-house-tradition/5347442

Desperate people
will take desperate chances.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/nextstepsyria.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WolO3w2Fr60
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/09/aipac-comes-out-for-strike-on-syria-and-mentions-iran-more-often-than-syria.html

improvised chlorine gas bomb used..in Syria,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9950036/Syria-chemical-weapons-finger-pointed-at-jihadists.html?fb

but the US and UK hung their helmets..on the claim that Sarin was used...So when the UN comes back and says they did not detect Sarin, the spin will be that the evidence vanished.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/25/us-syria-crisis-britain-idUSBRE97O0BA20130825
Except that Sarin..does not degrade that quickly,
and would leave chemical traces ..for years afterwards.
http://www.zcommunications.org/the-pot-calling-the-kettle-black-by-zoltan-grossman.html
Be ready

David G,

The problem is, and maybe always has been. that there are never just two 'groups', there is a vast, uncontrollable, multitude of views, each with their own fish to fry, each bitterly hating those 'other b@stards'.

The convenient 'them-us' dichotomy has always been a naive, deficient, and a lazy way to view the world.

Everybody can, some way or other, claim to be a victim of someone else (and probably has been).

I femember a particularly vicious street-brawl between two Aboriginal groups here in Adelaide, back in late 1972, outside the Carrington. The fights were brutal, and the men were not much better. And the idiotic thing was that so many of them, on either side, were related.

That's people for you.

Joe

Civil wars have always been diabolical affairs - see American Civil War.

Internal wars and divisions are usually about "power", whereas an attack from without is more about "survival" - and usually serves to paper over internal divisions in the first instance.

Poirot,

As usual, I agree with you. This one in Syria is particularly brutal and insoluble, given the doctrinaire views of most of the adversaries, each of which takes a no-questions-allowed, this-is-how-it-is approach.

But on the one hand, the bottom line is that 1400 or 1300 or 400 or more than two or three innocent people have been killed by the use of an illegal weapon. Whoever used those ghastly means of killing can't be allowed to repeat the process, while the world sits idly by.

On the other hand, maybe one way to bring a civil war to an end more quickly is to degrade the capabilities of both sides. As Abbott points out, both sides are pretty evil, nothing much to find worthy on either side.

Our preferred grouping, the secular-democrats, liberals and Left-progressives, is by far the weakest in this struggle which is mainly between a semi-fascist (to be charitable) dictatorship and a medievalist bunch of terrorists.

It's highly unlikely that the secular-democrats/liberals/ Left used sarin gas, that's probably taken for granted. So whether the perpetrators of this crime against humanity were the dictatorship or the terrorists, perhaps the US should take the opportunity to target their CMs at both, at airfields and control centres, AND at terrorist training and base camps. Two for the price of one ! Degrade both !

And beforehand, make this strategy clear to both the Iranians AND the Saudis. Reduce all parties to finger-wrestling competitions. Ultimately, of course, find ways to force them to a conference table with the secular forces.

I suspect that, in the long run, the least worst outcome may well be a hold-your-nose deal between the dictatorship and the secular forces, to shut out the Islamists. Yes, it will be very unstable, but pick off one enemy at a time: first up, the Islamists.

At least, in that way, the struggle may be brought a bit closer to the 21st century.

Cheers,

Joe

By saying that Americans are "duplicitous and cunning" you have just made a negative generalisation about an entire national group of people, which is an act of racism. You shall now be shunned by Arjay and James for conduct unbecoming an ideological zealot.

In 1939 the Soviets supported Nazi Germany, and both countries invaded Poland simultaneously. The yanks did not give the Lufwaffe training areas prior to WW2, the Soviets did. When the war started, the Soviets sold the Germans tungsten, tin, oil and rubber, and Soviet icebreakers cleared a passage through the Arctic Sea so that German maritime commerce raiders could get into the Pacific. People with your mindset were active in British trade unions doing their best to sabotage the British war industry at the urging of the Soviets.

When Germany invaded Russia, Churchill noted that the slogan daubers had been active overnight painting out their "Don't Fight in the Second Imperialist War!" to "Fight in the Great patriotic War!".

The US has bases all over the world because it realised after Pearl harbour that passivity had failed and it was going to take a pro active stance to protect the liberal democracies. It engages in endless wars because the bad guys hate liberal democracies and they want to stir up trouble in any country friendly with the western democracies. The US uses cluster bombs, depleted uranium shot, and drones because they are effective weapons against the enemies of liberal democracy.

The US does not torture prisoners. It "renders" (or "outsources") prisoners to allied countries for "traditional" interrogations because the prisoners are the sorts of people who put bombs in aeroplanes and they deserve it. And it is effective. That is how they got Osama bin Laden. The US supports some dictators because the alternative is worse.

The US is basing assets in Australia because the Pacific is gaining in world importance and China is essentially a Nazi regime with ambitions. The Chinese are Nationalist and Socialist, and they could teach the German National Socialists a thing or two about racism.

Some evidence of the Assad regime using chemical weapons has been released this morning:

"A Hezbollah official said Syrian president Bashar al-Assad ordered a poison gas attack last month and that the organisation considered the move a mistake which showed he was losing his grip, according to German intelligence."

"Participants at a confidential meeting of German lawmakers earlier this week said the head of the [German] BND foreign intelligence agency told them it had intercepted a phone call believed to be between a high-ranking member of the Lebanese Shiite militant group and the Iranian embassy in Damascus."

"The BND referred to a phone call they had heard between a Hezbollah official and the Iranian embassy in which he spoke about Mr Assad having ordered the attack," one of the participants said."

"In the phone call, the Hezbollah official says Mr Assad's order for the attack was a mistake and that he was losing his nerve, the participants reported the BND briefing as saying."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-05/assad-ordered-a-poison-gas-attack-says-german-intelligence/4936372

The German external intelligence agency (BND) has a high reputation for accuracy in the media. This is partly because BND is not part of the Anglo-US alliance and because it (and its military intelligence predecessors) regional expertise goes back a century.

Pete

Syria does not owe any money to the World Bank, hence they have to be invaded to plunge them into debt to the private central bankers!
http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/syria

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Vatican-ramps-up-opposition-to-Syria-strikes/articleshow/22295179.cms

http://xrepublic.tv/node/5186
How AIPAC works your Congressperson–
using donors, rabbis, and Jewish members

http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2013/09/us-government-making-people-feel.html

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/item/18175-what-congress-will-be-voting-on-is-another-war-not-a-limited-punitive-strike

http://ruvr.co.uk/2013_09_03/Debunking-Obama-s-chemical-weapons-case-against-the-Syrian-government/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/pipeline-politics-and-the-syrian-war-pepe-escobar-on-grtv/

boots on the grrround
http://12160.info/xn/detail/2649739:Video:1307268?xg_source=activity
What Congress Will Be Voting on Is Another War,
Not a "Limited Punitive Strike"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-press-lawmakers-to-approve-syria-strike-obama-invokes-congresss-credibility/2013/09/04/4c93a858-155c-11e3-804b-d3a1a3a18f2c_story.html

sorry ..has voted
full war
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5192
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/former-bush-official-syria-resolution-could-authorize-attack-on-iran-and-lebanon/

dont worry..the arabs are paying
http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2013/09/kerry-tells-senate-committee-arab.html

presstitutes
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/09/presstitutes-and-whore-esspondents.html

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/britain-france-germany-and-israel-lie.html
http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/the-middle-east-1/john-mccain---lost-in-space.html

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/syria-permanent-structure-of-us.html

puten..what about international..law?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntkkJwl8TNY

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2013/09/04/question-4-why-was-building-7-that-wasn-

more evidence..isnt evidence..if its lies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbrV2Ie2rls

anyhow notice the regular blogger have gone missing
ie all..lobbying..the us ..to hell..with us

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/09/04/227120-syria-countdown/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/fema-there-will-be-an-attack-on-usa/

signed and sealed..seemingly

The Syrian War Movie coming to Hollywood

http://www.andmagazine.com/content/phoenix/13259.html

all about the US now...

Pete, Joe and UOG. Ban Ke Moon has just come out and restated the obvious. Any attack on Syria (and that includes the three attacks by Israel so far this year) without it either being in self defence (which the US has never claimed) or the approval of the Security Council is contrary to international law.

Which raises the rather obvious point: either we have a system of law or we do not. One cannot pick and choose the bits one likes and ignore the rest. We established some important principles with the Nuremberg trials. Since then there has been an abject failure to hold political leaders to account for their repeated violations of international humanitarian law and the commission of war crimes (unless they are from Africa or the former Yugoslavia).

As long as the major imperial powers, including but not limited to the US, are able to carry out in this accountability free environment what happened in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and many other places is bound to be repeated. Australia's track record in recent decades is that there hasn't been an American inspired war that we didn't like.

Sooner rather than later there is going to be a terrible price to pay, and it will not only be the guilty who will suffer but the millions of innocent civilians who are always the greatest losers of this imperial hubris. Rather too many of the commenters on this thread have a remarkably blase attitude to the suffering that their views and policies would cause.

Hi James

Yes the legal deficiencies under the UN Charter of the US and France’s case does require much more international discussion.

The usual comebacks might be that the veto power of the P5 members of the UN Security Council system can lead to unjust outcomes if this forever blocks peacemaking or lifesaving action. But in this case Russia and China are blocking the delivery of Western high explosive to a country suffering from too much home-grown explosive and CWs.

Putin threatening a reaction in the Mediterranean or other dangers is a type of power that the US and France will need to think about.

Further damage to what is seen as an adventurist US's international standing is another issue that the US Congress will need to think about - before voting.

Pete

James, in June 1981, the Israeli Air force bombed and destroyed the Iraqi Osirak nuclear breeder reactor which Saddam Hussein planned to use to build atomic bombs.

The Israelis did more for nuclear disarmament and world peace in five minutes than all of the UN peace resolutions for the past 60 years.

Couldn't help noticing a post in this thread about how the German BND had turned up really damning evidence that Assad's crowd gassed the Syrians. Apparently someone in the BND had told some German pollies that the BND had overheard a phone conversation to someone in the Iranian embassy in Damascus by a high-ranking Shiite Moslem to the effect that Assad had ordered the attack. Gotcha! Bang to rights! And here's the kicker: BND has a fantastic record, the poster tells us, its predecessors go back a century. That would presumably include the Gestapo. Wow! Hot stuff!. Assad's guilty, get the missiles flying, start killing off the families. Degrade Assad’s forces and open up Syria’s people to Al Qa’eda.

There's more about BND. It missed a major Moslem plot being hatched in Hamburg to level the Twin Towers and hole the Pentagon (oops!) and was central to the Yank lie machine cooking up a WMD causus belli to launch the de facto annexation of a devastated Iraq. The operation is described at http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2013/07/08/recycling-curveball-what-intelligence-failures-iraq-teach-us-about-spying.

So lie after lie was fed out into their respective countries by traitors in Britain and America and Australia and Iraq and the lies were accepted with an “OK. that’ll do, get on with the attack” . The key omission was any honest, critical, open forensic appraisal of the lies. And now, even in this little thread, we again see total incuriosity about the credibility of the stories fed out by demonstrated liars, and calls to “punish” Assad (i.e. the people of Syria). Pity if those actually planning policy were as credulous as this. But wait a minute, they are.

Jules,

I suppose it's a consolation that some on the pseudo-left are not in bed with al-Qa'ida, that even though it is anti-US (and therefore Good), it has some slight wrinkles.

Like carrying out two thousand bombing attacks since 9/11, killing not only a couple of thousand suicide bombers, all currently in Paradise each with their 72 virgins/raisins, but perhaps a hundred thousand innocent people, in market-laces, schools and hospitals. Real heroes.

But thanks anyway.

Joe

Loudmouth, Satan himself could have sent Al Qa'eda to earth (he probably did send Al Qa'eda's "prophet" here) and it wouldn't have the slightest relevance to whether we are again, as a treaty-linked ally, again associating ourselves as a nation with a bunch who have shown themselves to be lying war criminals - and this without a care over whether or not the regime targeted actually committed the crime which has formed the pretext to join Al Qa'eda in war against it for geopolitical objectives.

The Serb racists shelling Sarajevo and the tribal Wahutu savages murdering the Watutsis both committed blatant crimes in full sight and it was always right to put them out of business (in the latter case regrettably left undone). Their crimes, which are not in doubt, can't be used as an alibi for "responding" to an offence as readily set up by liars as the supposed 1939 Polish raid on Germany. Or, worse, they CAN be used as an alibi but only by closing ranks with the liars.

EmperorJulian

1. You dismiss the BNDs evidence by externalising.

2. Your externalising is largely accurate.

3. BND's "evidence" is largely circumstantial. BND records conversations about an attack but not specifically a gas attack.

4. The lead-in linking the attack with gas was actually written by a journalist.

The comeback from intelligence analysts is usually "we base our estimates on a wide range of classified and overt sources".

But what if the pivotal sources are circumstantial?

With the intelligence analysts, military and political staffers interpreting in line with Obama's need to go to war.

Pete

EJ's has chosen the flat earth approach.

Anyone can continuously claim that the earth is flat if you discredit anyone that brings you information to the contrary.

The reality is that multiple tests have shown that Sarin was used, and there is clear evidence that it was fired in rockets from government positions. It is possible that everyone is fabricating this evidence, but extremely unlikely.

Assuming that you accept the evidence of the EU and US over that of Syria, and that the massacre of hundreds of men women and children using poison gas by the Assad regime is accepted, the two options are:

a) do nothing and give carte blanche to anyone to use chemical or nuclear weapons without consequences or,

b) take limited action to ensure that future genocidal dictators understand that the costs of using horrific weapons far out weighs the benefits.

Sorry Jules, it's late in the week and I'm already into the red wine, but I can't quite follow your reasoning. As I understand you, the US are more or less the worst war criminals on the planet, and/or known to humankind, ever. Nobody has been worse than the Yanks.

Ergo, you suggest, they shouldn't intervene on anybody's behalf, in Bosnia, Rwanda, anywhere, because they are Bad.

On the other hand, [although, as an atheist, I feel funny about using this term], in order to redeem themselves, IF somebody should stand up for the Syrian people against a dictatorship AND against Islamist terrorism (a hell of a hard ask), it might as well be the Yanks.

Because sure as eggs, if nobody stands up for the innocents of Syria, then they will be gassed again. And, thanks to the pseudo-Left and the extreme right, again. And again.

But, as you imply, why should we care - Syria is a small country, a long way away, with which we have few interests.

We've got far more important issues to focus on, like gay marriage, or Myley Cyrus' @rse (well, it got my attention), or the importation of New Zealand apples.

Just suggesting :)

Joe

Hi again Jules,

I can't say it better than this:

Syria is the most brutal war of our generation, and this chemical attack on innocent civilians is the worst our world has seen in 30 years. The world has a responsibility to protect Syrians from extermination, but for two years the international community has been shamefully gridlocked and has failed the innocent victims. Now, despite overwhelming evidence that Assad’s forces launched the attack, Syria’s backers have sown doubt and, wary of war, the world is unsure about a humanitarian intervention. These talks are a new chance to stop the bloodshed.

It's always been believed that the US would never talk to Iran and that Iran would never help the US solve the Syrian crisis, but current evidence points to change and hope. President Obama may launch strikes, but he has no public support for a longer war, and he is looking for a way out of a sustained conflict. And 130 members of the US Congress are calling on President Obama to talk with Iran. A massive global public push for diplomacy right now could push Obama towards talks.

Iran's former President Ahmadinejad spent billions supplying cash and weapons to the Assad regime. But the new President Rouhani was elected on a ticket to build bridges with the West and favours a political settlement with the Syrian opposition. The chemical attack is eroding Iranian public support for Assad, rekindling painful memories of Iraq’s gas attacks on Iran, and insiders say pressure is building to reconsider Iran's support for Assad. This could be a tipping point to bring Rouhani to the table.

Talks won't stop the horror overnight, but there is no quick and easy solution. We urgently need to get started on a path that can stop the killing of innocent children and bring the world closer together rather than tear us further apart. Let’s get the US and Iran to start talks now:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/solution_for_syria_loc/?bxjGGdb&v=28884

[TBC]

[continued]

A roadmap has already been put in motion for a Syrian peace process in Geneva, but this is the first time there could be the political will to overlook all the differences and sit down. Iran is the only country in the world with sufficient influence in Syria to push the regime to the table. And the US, with its Middle East allies, can push the opposition to sit down.

It took the horror of the Second World War to get the United Nations and the Declaration of Human Rights. Maybe the horror of Syria might finally push the US and Iran, and their moderate presidents, to address longstanding differences and build the basis for a more lasting peace for Syria and the region, with consequences for a host of global issues from nuclear proliferation to peace in Israel and Palestine.

Our community has stood by the Syrian people from the very beginning. Now they need us more than ever.

Let's give it our best shot.

Avaaz

They get my vote :)

Joe
www.firstsources.info

Hi Loudmouth

You've presented some compelling arguments as to why strikes may be necessary. If strikes bring Assad to the negotiating table they may be justified.

However there are also risks that strikes will not bring positive outcomes.

These are some possible negative outcomes of US-French strikes:

- many Syrian civilian deaths caused by the strikes

- substantial international and home-grown terrorist reactions (see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-07/us-orders-beirut-embassy-staff-to-leave-over-security-threats/4942302 of September 7, 2013)

- Assad or Hezbollah use of artillery or missiles aimed at Israel, Turkey and Jordan, and

- Syrian use of anti-shipping missiles against tankers which would cause a large spike in world oil prices.

Regards

Pete

Hi Pete,

Unless we all walk away from worrying about regimes gassing their own people, as we did in Iraq in 1988, and focus on really important issues like gay marriage, and leave the Syrian regime to it, kicking up the number of refugees by another million or two [SHY: take note], maybe some of us remain anxious that something should be done.

It doesn't necessarily have to be done by the US, although it is revealing that even the most rabid anti-US Right- and Left-whingers assume that no other country will lead any strikes against the regime. Are they assume the natural, knee-jerk goodness of the Yanks ? I couldn't possibly comment.

But even if it comes down to NATO (i.e. the US) taking the lead, civilians don't have to be threatened: wiping out airfields, control towers, major military bases, helicopter hangars and workshops, port facilities, senior government buildings - none of this has to mean innocent civilian deaths.

Of course, this may be all academic - the world wants to sit idly by. And next time Assad uses gas against his own people ? It will sit idly by again. And again. What a gutless lot we are.

Joe

AIPAC Is A Grave Threat To World Peace
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/aipac-is-a-grave-threat-to-world-peace.html
Ynet reveals the operative plan. “Some 250 Jewish leaders and AIPAC activists, intend to storm the halls on Capitol Hill beginning next week to persuade lawmakers that Congress must adopt the resolution authorizing US strikes against Syria.”

http://investmentwatchblog.com/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-limited-war-congressman-charlie-rangel/

For the first time in modern history, in the open, the Jewish Lobby together with the Jewish State are pushing for a war that can easily escalate into a global conflict. Yet, I am slightly perplexed, as to whether these war mangers grasp what could be the consequences of such a war: do these Jewish campaigners really want to bear responsibility for the death of many innocent people? Can’t they see that they pressure the American Congress to act against the will of the American people?
http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2013/09/06/us-congress-finds-overwhelming-public-opposition-to-force-in-syria/

Are they still concerned with antisemitism, because their acts can bring total disaster on their fellow Jews

faked footage
http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/09/06/footage-of-chemical-attack-on-aug-21st-in-syria-is-fraud/
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/questions-arise-as-to-defense.html

some extra detail
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAi9Y-Gf_-o
http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/06/obama-hints-his-may-abandon-syria-strike/

http://www.republicbroadcasting.org/shoutcast/shoutcast.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node

justification
http://investmentwatchblog.com/obama-to-address-nation-regarding-syria-on-tuesday-why-tuesday/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvv34F9QkVg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqCenF8stgs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ayb02bwp0

to be posted,..in response to a mossad troll
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15394&page=0

THE SIX~POINTED STAR
research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AStar_of_David

http://watch.pair.com/mark.html
THE MARK OF THE BEAST


EDITED
Revelation 13:16,17





FOREWORD



And I saw…them..that had gotten..the victory over the beast,

And over his image..and over his mark…

SIX straight linees
SIX intersecting points
six isolated triangles..surrounding a..hex-ogram*

http://www.triumphpro.com/star-of-david.htm
The so-called “Star of David” is essentially a “hexagram,..

Many Jews and Christians..
have been deceived..by Jewish Kabbalists
who would have them believe..that the six-pointed star is a Jewish symbol.

*Nothing could be further..from the truth.
It is not a Jewish symbol,..but an occult symbol.

The six-pointed star is a hexagram..a curse mark
no matter what name..it may have:..the Star of David, Solomon's Seal, Double Triangle,..Shield of David, etc...

When the occult practitioner..puts a curse on someone,
he uses..the hexagram!

It is not our goal..to condemn the Jewish people,
but to condemn..the six-pointed star,..*a curse mark.

Brethren,..my heart's desire
and prayer to God..for Israel is,..*that they might be saved.
For I bear them record.. that they have a zeal for God,..but not according to knowledge. (Rev. 10:1,2)

But ye have born..the tabernacle
of your Moloch,..and Chiun (Remphan) your images,
the STAR OF..YOUR GOD,..which ye made to yourselves...(Amos 5:26-27)

It is our hope that,..during the seven years of the Great Tribulation,..the Lord will use this report..to show the Jewish people that the six-pointed star..is the mark of the beast;

and that,..with this understanding,
many will reject the mark..[deasth]..when it comes

*...<<<..
This study is dedicated to those overcomers during the Great Tribulation period who, because of their love for the Lord and His Word would will lose their lives rather than take the Mark of the Beast. They will be the true heroes of the Tribulation period, whom God will richly reward.

…and I saw the souls of them..that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,..and for the word of God,.and which did not do homage to the beast,..neither his image,..neither had received his mark upon their forehead, or upon their hand;..and THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. (Rev. 20:4)*>>..

Six posts on Page 21, all in one form or another calling for war against Syria to install the “rebels”, all disguising this as punishing a sarin attack, and nary a single one of them venturing any interest in who launched it (which is how to tell it’s no more than a disguise, in keeping with the story fed out by the Yanks). Here are the boring details:

SM: *Irrelevant truism about flat earth. (Try changing “is flat” to “is not flat” and the second sentence will be just as true and a lot more relevant).

*The rest demands the reader first assume without evidence that the Yanks, who pioneered gassing civilians through a surrogate hit team in 1988 and in 2003 set up a template for this year’s operation by lying about Iraqi WMDs as a pretext for armed aggression to overthrow its government, are telling the truth about Syria - and then posits follow-up actions.

LM1: * Creates straw man about the Yanks being the worst war criminals on the planet, ever. The way I put it was merely that lying to cover aggression, no more and no less, is in their CV, and that’s why attacking Syria on their sayso would be a war crime, WHOSE PERPS SHOULD BE STRUNG UP, if it’s another lie.

*Berates “international community” (aka America) for not helping the “rebellion” to overthrow the government long ago.

*Invents story that I’d said they shouldn’t intervene for Bosnians or Watutsis to counter crimes being committed in the open for the world to see, whereas what I wrote was the exact opposite. Should LM be taken seriously at all?

*Suggests it’s because “we” think Syria is unimportant that we oppose attacking it on dodgy information (i.e. not that based on America’s form we have no real evidence that the truth is being told).

Continued

[continued]

LM2 * Berates USA and allies for not joining Syria’s civil war earlier. Declares the unproven word of liars as “overwhelming evidence”. Seems to be saying memories of the murderous Yank gas attacks on Iran are leading new Iranian government to work with them over Syria, and that part of the US Congress is leaning on Obama to talk to them about it. LM calls for encouragement of talks between US and Iran. (The negotiators may be interested in the truth about who launched chemical warfare THIS time).

LM3 *More of an AVAAZ item about plans for talks in Geneva. Suggestions that this may lead the way to a more settled and less dangerous Middle East. (Hard to see the Palestinian throwing away their national integrity &#8722; a bit like the occupied Europeans saying to the German aggressors: “OK, you have it. We’ll squeeze into Bantustans”).

P: *Welcomes prospect of talks - suggests that there are compelling arguments (in the absence of evidence about the sarin) that the Syrians could (should??) be bombed into a surrender process, but warns of risks in trying to do this.

LM4: *Again counterposes marriage equality against Syria.
* Berates people who assume that the USA should lead the charge (could it have something to do with America hogging the lion’s share of world resources?)
*Suggests Americans could avoid killing civilians themselves by destroying Syrian defences and letting the Moslem terrorists in to cut their throats.
*Suggests the world only wants to sit by. LM never. . .never. . . suggests seeking the truth about who spread the sarin.

How history is made: By the accumulating decisions of billions of individuals every minute on what attitudes to take about what is right. A responsibility to take seriously

It is likely that in the last week the Rudd government provisionally accepted US persuasion that Australia be part of an international Coalition on Syria. Mr Abbott and Ms Bishop would have been advised of this over the last few days and provisionally agreed.

That being the case the most Visible Australian military item in the Coalition on Syria is likely to be the frigate HMAS Newcastle currently deployed in Africa-Middle East waters.

HMAS Newcastle has a broad, flexible mission, in the "international campaign against terrorism, smuggling and piracy in the Gulf of Aden, and for enhancing regional maritime security and engagement."

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Sep2013/Operations/363/A-view-from-the-other-side.htm#.UiaUB51-_X4

The US and France assume that air-missile strikes on Syria will increase the likelihood of peaceful outcomes.

But the Middle East is typically unpredictable with few rapid cut and dried gains and almost always lasting complications.

US-French strikes on Syria may involve such risks as:

- mass Syrian civilian deaths

- international and home-grown terrorist reactions (see http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-07/us-orders-beirut-embassy-staff-to-leave-over-security-threats/4942302 of September 7, 2013)

- Assad or Hezbollah deciding to widen the war through shelling or firing missiles at Israel, Turkey and Jordan,

- Syrian use of anti-shipping missiles against warships and tankers (the last causing a large spike in world oil prices).

- all leading to an expansion of the war beyond the expectations of limited US-French Coalition involvement.

Allies in a Coalition on Syria may be called on the commit resources in long term ways, suffer casualties, expend large funds, then withdraw, with a marginal gain in Australia's alliance standing.

All things for the incoming Abbott government to consider.

Pete

more..for tony..to consider

recall..john kerry
visited israel..many times..these..last few weeks?

he has been..mind programed..by the mossad
[as witnessed..by,,how he was..talking..peace..in*..palestein..one minute]..the next..*making up lies to kill syrians..and begin armogeddon
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/06/john-kerry-congress-syria_n_3881200.html
much like bendover ..feign's to seek peace in palistein..
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15394&page=0

yet..befriend instantly..
your presumed nemisis..lol..yet/another..false peace maker..[like johnFkerry?]
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/tell-john-kerry-world-says-no-to-war-on-syria

TONY..WE..have none we hate..
none we fear..none we despise..[how can we..who/know?

to despise any..is to despise ..he good/god..sustaining..all life..its living

anyhow..tony will..soon be in shock..but our/his? ma$ters arnt.
they need vile..so we can realize/own greatness..by ending it..

[yet by..never allowing..its lessons..to be forgotten
thus for this..'his own people'..have a special capability..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD0pnfmdlC8#t=474

that once..they see
the truth=peace love grace and mercy..
this..may just lead us to the promised..[contracted]..1000..years of peace]

you..up for/it..tony?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0
the easy way..
http://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/dont-act-like-animals-abroad-new-poster-exhibit-opens-in-tel-aviv-in-bid-to-raise-awareness-to-israeli-tourists-behavior/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/12-year-old-girl-tells-the-people-the-truth-about-rothschild-corrupt-bankers-and-economy/
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-09-07/high-level-us-intelligence-officers-syrian-government-didn%E2%80%99t-launch-chemical-

or the hard way
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/10-signs-global-elite-are-losing-control.html
http://investmentwatchblog.com/senator-john-songbird-mccain-guarantees-russia-and-china-will-not-retaliate-a-u-s-syria-strike-basically-says-they-dont-have-the-balls-video/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/SullivanVUSA.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCqj0OvlJgo

anyhow..david..your avoidence concernes me
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-and-defense/1.545661

lets back to basics..KEV/carr both gone*
palistein* issue silenced...

now..what about sharon?
and the writing..being..on the wall?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/09/07/france-backs-off-support-for-syrian-strike.html?comp=7000023435700&rank=3

WHERE..are my PROMISED*..9 good things?
i am hearing.. too many vile things

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/nearly-one-sixth-of-population-on-food-stamps/66683/
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/national-security-versus-food-insecurity-one-in-seven-hungry-in-america-as-obama-prepares-for-syrian-war/66670/

What Nuclear War Would Look Like -
Obama and the plan for World War 3 - Best documentary film 2013
http://xrepublic.tv/node/5255
http://investmentwatchblog.com/record-90473000-not-in-labor-force-so-that-would-put-the-unemployment-rate-at-what-posts-say-from-35-to-40-wtf/

http://intellihub.com/2013/09/06/israel-limited-strike-syria-game/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/the-conflict-in-syria-and-global-resistance-why-humanity-will-prevail/66699/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/as-tech-companies-create-alibis-experts-warn-nsa-harms-are-irreparable/66703/
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130905/15531224420/nsa-gchq-admit-that-enemy-is-public.shtml
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-sends-warship-special-cargo-syria-102835383.html

Ladies and Gentlemen, are we are on the brink of nuclear war.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/diabolical-chemical-weapons-intelligence-operation-killing-syrian-civilians-and-blaming-it-on-the-enemy/66690/

when..Will WWIII commence?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15408&page=0
“The Jewish State”—What It Really Means
and Why the Rest of the World Should be Terrified at the mere mention of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9_qyLALPyCk

Israel is desperate..not only for war
but to prove..*they still control the US Congress
even in the face of growing anger from the American voters.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5984&page=0

Now we are hearing the House vote may be two weeks away,
http://www.republicbroadcasting.org/shoutcast/shoutcast.html
giving AIPAC plenty of time to work/bribe/blackmail members of Congress
http://bit.ly/158p6ka

to launch a war the American people
*overwhelmingly do not approve of.

No doubt they are hoping that over the next two weeks,
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/is-fall-coming.html
public outcry over the war will fade away,
http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-affairs/not-just-russia-italy-other-europeans-sold-plenty-of-weapons-to-syria/arms-syria-italy-weapons-embargo/c1s13307/

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/mccain-obama-syria-impeach/2013/09/06/id/524327?s=al&promo_code=14CC5-1

http://intellihub.com/2013/09/06/u-s-navy-destroyers-air-force-b-2-b-52-bombers-set/

http://www.aipac.org/en/about/contact-us

http://xrepublic.tv/node/5254

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/tell-john-kerry-world-says-no-to-war-on-syria

It is rather sad that war provides such fascination for some men.

But 'Boys and their destructive Toys' are part of every generation and they never seem to die out no matter how hard sane people might wish it were so.

One would think that evolution could have intruded and put the warmongers on the evolutionary scrapheap. Yet, despite billions of deaths caused by war, war continues unabated.

Of course, humans, ever inventive, have developed more sophisticated ways of killing. Huge catapults that fired enormous rocks were once all the go but now we have nukes that can be launched from the sea, the air, and from silos and outer space. Some see this as progress. Others see it as a march towards extinction!

If we taught our children that war is evil and futile and is engaged in only by barbarians, we might have a chance to stamp it out! If we condemned all those who make money from war, that might help too!

War will bring us extinction, nothing is surer.

But the Boys and their Toys will never stop their madness!

Hi David,

I look forward to the day when you declare that using poison gas against one's own people is "evil and futile and is engaged in only by barbarians ....."

But not when their YOUR boys, isn't that so ? What a bunch of opportunists.

Jo

Loudmouth challenged David: “I look forward to the day when you declare that using poison gas against one's own people is "evil and futile and is engaged in only by barbarians .....".

In the middle of the 20th century the world bled for the right to declare that to commit an act of aggression against any nation was evil, engaged in only by barbarians, and punishable by death.

There was no rider that it was OK to commit aggresstion on the untested sayso of a government of proven liars. A single rider was added once: that it could be authorised on the unanimous sayso of the main countries that bled to bring the declaration about.

I’d echo that declaration today. Anyone else? Loudmouth?

Not sure what you're on about Jules. I suggest though, that the original intention was to distinguish between an act of unprovoked aggression, and one of retribution, however phrased.

Otherwise, we end up with a position that, no matter what a government does, it's more or less safe from any retribution. Especially, it can do whatever it damn-well likes against its own people and there's nothing any other state or organisation can do about it, so p**s off.

After all, as Putin declared this week, nothing should interfere with state sovereignty. And the Chinese, when it suits, go on about 'non-interference in another country's internal affairs'. That may all be so, and so much for any move towards 'world government'.

So Jules, the next time Assad gasses his own people, your advice would be to what ? Go fishing ?

I'm appalled at the opportunism of such extreme-Right viewpoints.

In my view, as soon as it is generally agreed and demonstrated that Assad not only had the capacity to deliver such devastation on his own people, but actually did so, then send in the Cruise Missiles. By the hundreds: crater every airfield (unless it is clear that innocent people actually sleep on them), every control tower (ditto), major port facility (ditto), and every helicopter -workshop (ditto).

And a few into al-Nusra and other al-Qa'ida training camps for good measure, just to degrade both sides and shorten the war (with the above proviso, of course).

Down with fascism of all sorts ! The people will prevail !

Joe

"The people will prevail," says Joe!

Looking back at the history of the world it seems that the results are: Psychos = a thousand wins. People of the World = 3 or 4, the French Revolution being on of them.

And how we have a warmongering, fascist superpower, which helped to topple Hitler, engaged in an desperate attempt to gain control of the world for its own benefit.

Joe, the people will never prevail while the current world system of 'Might is Right' rules.

might..is rite*
[ritual/creed/cred]

extract/from
http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/angel_con.html

# Man's creation..was to resolve..the Angelic Conflict..and answer the appeal..of Satan...Angels lived in the second heaven..with access to the third..for convocations, Job.1.

After..the revolt of Isa.14:12-14,..Satan set up his headquarters on the earth..and made a garbage dump out of it. It ended up being covered with ice and darkness.

In six days,..God (Holy Spirit) restored the earth..to perfect environment.and set up..*the volition test(Ps.8:35; Heb.2:7).

# Human..volition..was tested,
as was..angelic volition.

1.Angels began perfect..(innocent)..with free will.
Mankind also..began perfect..with free will.

2.Some went negative,..creating two categories.
[God..does not coerce/judge/condemnor censure..at any time...We are not/slave/robots.

#The..two tests..of man's volition.

1.Under..perfect/environment,
only one act..was forbidden..to Adam(Gen.2:17).[not eve]

2.The second..is..the need toscape-goat/blame other(Gen.3:15; Rom.5:12; 6:23).

# Man's..positive volition..in God's plan..
to have mankind..judge Satan's appeal..[as peers](Heb.1:4-14; cp. Lk.15:710).

gods..Angels cheer..when..an unbeliever..accepts Christ/grace/mercies...dittosatansd angels cheer..when we [like them]..'fall'

1...Angels observed..the incarnation..of Christ/love(Mt.4:11; 28:2; Lk.2:13;..Act.1:10;..1Tim.3:16).
2...Angels/ob-serve..believers..(1Cor.4:9; 6:3; 11:10; Eph.3:10; 1Tim.5:21; 1Pet.1:12).
3...Fallen angels..de-serve/..non-believers(Job.1:6; 2:13; Eph.6:12).

#..Results..of..the Angelic/Conflict for..dispensation.

1.Phase one,..salvation...
via atonement[at-one-meant]

We are..NOT*..higher..than angels/positionally
[one can ONLY..be judged..by a jury..of peers](Heb.2:7).

2..Phase two,..spiritual maturity.
We..can have..a tactical/victory..in the Angelic/Conflict.[but thus loose right..to judge]..

Any blessing..we..GIVE UNTO other,..in/the*..devil's-world
is..a tactical/victory...thatvoids..our duty..to bjudge

We..cannot receive*..blessing/without..1st/person-capacity..[standing](1Pet.1:7,8).
3...Phase three,eternity.[our gifted..life*..is eternal
that we stay/equal/peer[by the same measure]..We will/NOT..be/higher than..angels(Phil.3:21).

#..adam's initial/fall..gave the/rulership..of this/world..to Satan..(Gen.3;..Jn.12:31;..14:30;..16:11;..2Cor.4:4;..Eph.2:2)..but man's positive volition..can free him..from Satan's/dominion..while living in..Satan's kingdom(Gal.5:1).

# Questions..2b..answered..by the Angelic/Conflict.

1.Why..was man..created equally..in..his/image?
To resolve/the Angelic Conflict...via peers/equals

2.What is history.. An extension of,
and..*conclusion to,..the Angelic/Conflict.

3.Why sin?
Because angels..and man/have..volition.
God..is not/the..author of sin,..freewill..is,..Jam.1:13.

4...Why suffering?
God..is going to..remove this,[without.loosing..its teavhing..].but right/now..this is Satan's kingdom/school..and Satan..cannot handle his/own kingdom.*

The result..is EXTREEM..poverty/untold wealth,
deliberated intended poisoning/disease,..war, death,etc.
God's plan//[at-one-ment]..turns past/suffering..into ETERNAL/blessing.

edited
#God's provision..for us
for..the Angelic Conflict..is spelled out/in Eph.6:11-17.

examined..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257&page=0

expanded surmised..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5995&page=0

http://investmentwatchblog.com/obama-on-syria-vs-bush-on-iraq/

Last March,..when there/was..a chemical weapon attack against civilians in Syria,..the White House claimed..it was Assad..until the United Nations inspectors..confirmed it was the rebels.

Turkey has caught..the hired mercenaries/with chemical weapons.

The victims of the chemical attack..say it was the hire/ mercenaries.[using pool chlorine]..Even the hired mercenaries ..re saying it was the hired mercenaries.

http://www.redressonline.com/2013/09/disarm-israel-of-nuclear-weapons-an-israeli-breaks-a-taboo/

There is no common sense,..
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xzwri_sir-no-sir-gi-opposition-to-vietnam_news

..in the White House claim..There is only..he lust for war..and the necessity to push forward..into a global war..as a distraction from the coming economic crash.

Why?..Because it worked..twice before!
Crash..of 1907..W1...Crash of 1929,/WW2...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100234713/barack-obamas-delusions-of-grandeur-compares-syria-intervention-to-fighting-world-war-two/?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=bufferbc330&utm_medium=twitter

Crash..of 2013.WWW3

Common sense..tells us the same bloody fix
for the failed financial/experiment..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6ayb02bwp0
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-06/poland-confiscates-half-private-pension-funds-cut-sovereign-debt-load
called private central banking.is being tried..a third time.
http://m.nationalreview.com/corner/357799/if-it-wasnt-syria-it-would-have-been-something-else-victor-davis-hanson

It is important to recall..that prior to..the creation of the federal Reserve,..there was no such thing..as a world war...is that/not a coincidence.

In 1898,President William McKinley lied..when he claimed the Spanish had sunk the USS main in Havana/Harbor,..to trick America into war with Spain.

Both the Captain of the Maine..and later an investigation
by admiral Hyman G. Rickover..confirmed the ship had been lost..to an on-board fire.

In 1915,President Woodrow Wilson ..ied when he claimed the Germans had attacked..and sunk an..*innocent civilian passenger ship,..the Lusitania,..to trick America into WW1.

Germany claimed Lusitania..*was carrying arms..and was therefore a legitimate target of war...In 2008,divers entered the hold of the Lusitania..and found military cargo.
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/wheres-proof-classified-says-us-though-poised-strike-syria-despite-lack-evidence

In 1964,President Johnson lied..when he claimed North Vietnam had launched torpedoes..against the USS Maddox.in the Gulf of Tonkin on august 4,1964.

The initial report..of torpedoes was a mistake,..*instantly rescinded by the Captain of the Maddox,.but John used that report..to trick Congress..into escalating the Vietnam war.

In 2003,President Bush..lied when he claimed
http://benswann.com/lindsey-graham-to-charleston-support-war-in-syria-or-be-nuked/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=nl

Saddam/Hussein..*possessed nuclear weapons to trick America into war against Iraq...None were ever found,..later exposed as forgeries by former Ambassador Joseph Wilson,..which led to the Valerie Plame scandal.

In short,..the United States[..colonization inc]
has a long history..of lying
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/the-war-on-syria-is-a-hoax/66965/
to trick the American people..purses..into wars.
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/a-timeline-of-cia-atrocities/66974/
Isn't it common sense..that the story about Assad..is just more of the same?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/conan-obrien-exposes-the-mainstream-media-lies-propaganda/
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/09/syria-nerve-gas-points-to-obama-backed-jihadists-as-wh-chief-of-staff-admits-they-dont-have-evidence.html

http://investmentwatchblog.com/my-2-cents-on-syria-obama-and-the-irony/

Loudmouth writes: "the next time Assad gasses his own people, your advice would be to what ? Go fishing ?"

Again Loudmouth skips the key requirement. Replace "the next time Assad gasses his own people" with "the first time Assad is SHOWN to gas his own people". Is the difference too subtle? Is there some reason why the Yanks can't produce the evidence? Liars with an axe to grind claiming he gassed his own people doesn't mean the same as "he gassed his own people".

Assad's forces may have mounted a gas attack in Syria. Or it might have been a false flag attack by the "rebels". Or by Mossad. On past form, this setup stinks to high heaven.

One thing is certain: If yet another armed Yank attack on a foreign country turns out to be based on a lie it will make criminals of everyone who abets it in thought, word or deed. War isn't necessarily a crime, but aggression is the most despicable crime in the book.

EJ,

The yanks have produced the evidence. Just because you personally have not seen it does not mean it does not exist.

Samples tested in several countries confirmed that Sarin was used. Film of rocket casings, and intercepted telephone calls show clearly that this came from Assad's forces.

Now you can lock yourself in your room, put your fingers in your ears and pretend it didn't happen. However, those that matter believe it, and those that don't don't.

shameless ministar..<<..Samples tested in several countries confirmed that Sarin was used.>>

how about dna tests
to..confirm sirian..dna sent the poisen
orthat assad supplied it..or orded it deliverd

mate it was our alies whot dunit

look at who gains?

<<Film of rocket casings>>

that held chloreen

<<and intercepted telephone calls..>>

oh dear lord

illegaltapes
does that stanmd upncourt?

any court?

anyhow what was the content of the calls
if you dont know..your being conned


lies deceptions
not specific evidenmcvtialproof
not line of action..proved..reasonable doudt

case dismissd

<<show clearly
that this came from Assad's forces>>

nuthin
you proved exactly

nuthin

No problem, Jules:

Let me re-phrase that:

The first time Assad [or WHOEVER] is SHOWN to have gassed innocent people, and the next time, and the next time, what would you advise the world ? To go fishing ?

There should be ways to deter WHOEVER used such means to kill women and children - whether it was Assad or al Qai'da or the Boy Scouts - from doing so again.

Surely, WHOEVER did this, there must be means of deterrence, so that this doesn't happen again ? And again ?

Or does the world shut its eyes, and say, well, it's not for us to meddle in some other county's internal affairs ? Or should rulers be able to gas whoever they like, within their own borders ?

I respectfully do not think so. Wouldn't you agree ?

Joe

Loudmouth has finally removed the elephant from the loungeroom. Yes, Loudmouth, whoever is shown to have played any part whatsoever in deliberately attacking anyone at all with lethal war gas should be marked in perpetuity with a globally enforceable warrant for arrest and execution. It is interesting that David Singer has proposed something similar, without at the same time prejudging the identity of the perps (September 09). It is the first time I have seen any glimmer of morality in any of his articles.

There are some practical considerations. To nail down those responsible requires independent technical and forensic experts, and also teams with authority and expertise for launching prosecutions and judging guilt. No person or nation should be exempt from the jurisdiction of the inquiry. As at Nuremberg, Servatius-style legalistic crap about jurisdiction would need to be excluded so that there weren’t farcical marathon trials like those at The Hague but all proceedings would have to be open with all proffered evidence subject to factual challenge.

Anything like that would be unsatisfactory for anyone with a hidden agenda for externally imposed regime change. Their wish would be for a planted false flag gas attack followed on cue with an avalanche of Colin Powell-type lies to blame the target and an invasion to take over as in Iraq or a Blitzkrieg to degrade the target’s defences and let terrorists take over - as in Libya. The key to that is to follow the false-flag crime quickly enough with Blitzkrieg to forestall any scrutiny that could expose the truth. That wish has been stubbornly pursued on this little list. But as Mr Singer has pointed out, the Yanks flubbed it and it’s coming unstuck.

On today's news http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/09/09/uk-syria-crisis-idUKBRE9860L420130909 :

Peaceful removal of Assad's chemical weapons (CWs) sounds preferable to US-French airstrikes.

I'm a bit of a pessimist though, giving removal about a 40% chance of success. Things that could go wrong include:

- Assad refusing to handover CWs or excessively delaying handover due to haggling over "what kind of international force?".

- Assad's forces don't handover all the CWs or are perceived as not handing over all CWs.

- dissenting elements in Assad's army or Hezbollah refuse to hand over some CWs.

- all CWs in Syria are handed over but Assad continues to mass murder by conventional means.

These are just some ways that might eventually return the issue back to US-French airstrikes.