This is all a little disingenuous. What Roy perhaps means to say is that of the historians who believe that Jesus existed at all, a certain percentage of them believe his parents were called Mary and Joseph, and so on: but he fails to inform us that a significant proportion of historians consider the whole story to have been fabricated at a later date, making Jesus a fictional figure along the lines of Gandalf or Gilgamesh.

See for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Oddly enough, the historians who claim to have found evidence of a historical Jesus also tend to be those with a prior religious affiliation. This doesn't constitute evidence of bias, of course, but as Mandy Rice-Davis said in similar circumstances: "Well, they WOULD, wouldn't they?"

Dear Jon,

You may be interested in a book by Barbara Thiering,
"Jesus The Man: A new interpretation from The
Dead Sea Scrolls."

"The virgin birth, the miracles, and the resurrection
can be viewed in an entirely new light... They never
were literal events... nor were they myths, traditional
legends, as scholars have often held. Something really
did happen, and what happened opens up a whole new
understanding of historical Christianity."
(from the Introduction to "Jesus The Man.").

…The real mystery remains, why the “need” for a barrage of miracles in the Christian story? The need for miracles two thousand years ago no longer applies; as the miracle of the continuation of the Christian faith supersedes them all. That is “the” miracle!

…The belief system of Christianity which brings spiritual comfort and a moral direction in a chaotic modern world, a world perched precariously on the edge of its own destruction, to me is the greatest of miracles. Christmas is the joyous and welcome reminder of hope in a future for humanity, both here and beyond. What a miracle!

Christmas Day. Have a happy day.
To me, myself, I look on Christmas as a day to celebrate the miracle that we are all here, enjoying what is around us, all life, fixed and moving.
I would say that over the millions of years before us people have tried to explain the fact that we are here, and the Christmas story is one such story.
How about just saying that we are made up of a chance combination of chemicals and that when we die, the chemicals revert to their original state. Why concoct all the hype!

Is this political correctness gone mad. Where I work dealing face to face with the public. I was told on Thursday "Tomorrow (Friday) is 'mufti day' you can wear 'casual clothes' but they mustn't be Christmas no 'Merry Christmas' no 'Raindears etc' on them and don't wish people a 'Merry Christmas' just something like 'Happy Holiday'.
I'm not religious, but things can be carried to extremes, 'I wish you the appropriate disposition for the legal holiday at hand."
As for the Jesus story kids love it, shepherds, donkeys wisemen etc. My son was in a nativity play when he was 4, staring roll as a tree ha ha.

Dear Lexi,

According to Wikipedia on Barbara Theiring:

"In 1993 N. T. Wright, New Testament historian and former Bishop of Durham, wrote:[3]
It is safe to say that no serious scholar has given this elaborate and fantastic theory any credence whatsoever. It is nearly ten years since it was published; the scholarly world has been able to take a good look at it: and the results are totally negative."

Given this, why should I give them any more attention than the hundreds of other crackpot theories circulating around the birth, life and death of the hypothetical Jesus Christ?

i feel we try to squeeze too much..within too small a timeline

sinter class/saint nik's day is 5 dec
recalling how he 'revived' 3 boys butcherd by a butcher

then there is god[the all knowing seeing all knowing all]
and most definitivly isnt jesus...[jexus upons whomes birth a new year begins]...so clearly jesus 'birthday...should be on the first day[of the new year]

he dies yet didnt die
ie he came back to prove..spirit survives death..[we all get born again;..regardless of creed]..we also dont thus have a combined [unified]..reserction 'day'...[and also dont thus have any 'day of judgment']..or he as having been born of woman..would still be there awaiting his]

to say it began 2000 plus years ago...excludes the rite of the light [haunnyka]hanika]...mixes together dead trees..with the winter solstice...[so workers dont get extra days off work?]

in short its obscene..to join these diveergent sepperate events
together under a satan clause
of crass commercial excess

buh humbugg burger
ya want fries..[lies]..with that

i know one cant cover everything in a single article
but what 'birth' was more amasing...johns mother[a priestes..falling pregnany in her eighties]...;a few moths before the virgens conception

fertilised by here husband...a high priest
serving in his high office...who jesus clearly regards as the messiah[plus that jesus..didnt do anything..till the baptiser lost his head]

i will admit im much influenced by the dead sea scrolls
and books...that discuss...the good teacher..and the bad one etc

but l;ets look at the fruit of the tree
with honesty and no blame shame nor adgenda

jesus didnt write the bible
he came to unite...yet claimed to do this by division
[as written and told of by others....with the main 'words..written by one who hated the living christ..persicuted..him while alive..'paul who became saul]

the truth is hiden...too much has been confounded and subverted
santa isnt jesus and certainly aint god...[the christs house is divided]...but putting no god before god..seems clear

and its most sure..jesus never turned
the phrase..'a just war'.. into the neo[new]...law

we can find that of god..by finding
that good of life love mercy grace charity

and in the end..if its not about god...
why should it be re the messanger

to name the god...jesus
is to miss that

we shall call him..em-manuel...
[to find the good..with/in everyone]
and give the goods of god..back to the good of man kind*

not of the war or curses kind
but the loving gracefull knind...of the everpresent living good
sustaining even the most vile...too..their living..one living good god

many messangers
what christ gave
is but a fracten..of what john taught

but its not about the mess-anger
its about their...mess-age

The great thing about Christmas is that Jesus was born of a virgin so we could get Christmas presents. Yet why? Well obviously he didn't need to be born of a virgin. He could have come into the world in the usual - diploid - manner. He *chose* to be born of a virgin so that he could impress future adherents of his religion with how easily he could suspend the laws of nature at whim. However even the Bible seems to have entertained some doubt on this particular point by tracing his descent through Joseph. Obviously he coudn't be descended from Joseph if Mary was a virgin, could he? The idea that Mary might not have been a virgin of course has generated many a snigger from the impious. Even Jesus didn't seem to be too sure, as he never referred to himself as "God" or even "the son of God", but only as "the son of man". But surely that's the one thing that would *not* be true if he was born of a virgin?

But the factual circumstances of Jesus' birth are only relevant in so far as we believe the whole narrative, going back to the book of Genesis, that Jesus "saved" us. What did he save us from? Why eternal torture in Hell, of course, what else? And why were we at risk of that? Because God had decided so. And why did God decide so? Because he decided to punish all the descendants of Adam and Eve for their sin. Wasn't that a bit, you know, *abusive* of God to punish countless people for a wrong they didn't commit? Well... yes, it was, wasn't it? And what was this terrible sin? Well he told them not to eat the fruit of a particular tree, without letting them know that, if they did, he would punish them severely and torture all their innocent descendants for eternity...

Stop right there. This is nutty. Isn't it? Come on Christians, repeat after me
"Yes this is a nutty belief system and it is dishonest of me to pretend otherwise. There is no reason to think that Jesus' birth is relevant to anything but Christmas presents; it has no wider significance. And a garbled load of fabulous codswallop is not a necessary basis of a system of ethics."

Peter you write: "Stop right there. This is nutty. Isn't it?" Taken in the context of the whole bible and the fairy tales contained there in. Birth by a virgin is very mild indeed. Christians will tell you 'god works in mysterious ways', this is just a bit more of the mysterious stuff.
Peter you write: "without letting them know that, if they did, he would punish them severely and torture all their innocent descendants for eternity..."
Christians accept that their all loving, all merciful god allows innocent children to die the most agonising deaths through no fault of their own, they call it 'gods will' so a bit of eternal torture for the rest of us should not be too hard to cop.

"... this is just a bit more of the mysterious stuff."

Certainly it is.

Also mysterious is how anyone could believe it.

Dear Jon,

Barbara Thiering caused quite a stir with her
book, "Jesus The Man," and I'm not surprised
that some would brush it aside, especially
religious leaders. However, I recommended the
book to you because I had assumed that you
had an open mind and would be be interested in
a different take on the topic.

Dr Thiering developed her interest in religion
with a master's degree in theology, followed by a
PhD in 1973. She began teaching at the University
of Sydney in 1967, joining the School of Divinity in 1976,
and lectured in Old Testament, and Hebrew Theology.
Her studies led to the Dead Sea Scrolls and a 20 year
research project which produced remarkable findings.

On Palm Sunday in 1990 the ABC broadcast, "The Riddle
of the Dead Sea Scrolls," a documentary based on her
research, creating a nationwide controversy, the effects
of which are still continuing to this day.

Dr Thiering has been a Member of the University of Sydney
Board of Studies in Divinity 1973 to 1991. Some people may
find it somewhat unsettling - what she has written -
but it does make for interesting reading. Of course you'll
never, ever know - unless you read it for yourself.

THe same mockers of the supernatural Creator believe in the idiotic notion that this earth resulted from a mathematical impossibility.

Runner...I have my pop-corn and coke:)

Science has what we realist need, and religion gives the mind somewhere to go.

See!.....everything is with-in all what we need.

Cant we share the best of both worlds?

CACTUS

Runner, you mean 'mathematical improbability'

IT only took the Christian Church 1900 years to agree on the notion of the immaculate conception. In 1854 Pope Pius IX defined:

"The Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, and in view of the foreseen merits of Jesus Christ, the savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin."

Not only was Jesus born of a virgin but a special virgin, unlike billions of others its claimed she alone was without original sin. My point is Christians are willing to change their belief when it suits them to do so. Its possible that early Christians made up stories about Christ to win converts. Could have gone something like this:

Heathen: "What's so special about your bloke?"
Christian: "Ah well, He could walk on water."
Heathen: "That's nothing special the other blokes messiah could eat fire."
Christian: "Well not only could my bloke walk on water, he could turn water into wine, feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and a bit of bread. heal the sick, and wait for it raise the dead."
Heathen: "Gee, raise the dead, now that is something. I'm in."
Christian: "Okay convert now I'll tell you the Christmas story, you'll love it, goes like this......."

lexi...i too have read jesus the man
and i found it an easy read...it fills in much of the curious stuff borrowed from other legends..[that im surprized..we havnt heard mention of..so far]

you can lead a horse to water..etc

its sad that the church swallows the big lies[like evolution of genus]..yet allows the silly little ones[like jesus...lol..being god..or dying yet not dying for our sin]..not to mention the many other litle things..jesus dun...'because it was written'..he would do them..

never the less i believe in the jesus
even if they didnt name him..[emmanuel]
he yet did..as the messiah did...do
till they took off his head..

but what hurts me..is they ignore..the satan clause
completly...[heck if you got sperm...that can impregnate thousands of teqnical virgens...but as jesus the man says...a virgen is simply[was then simply...an unwed woman]

we cant comprehend the basic things
without knowing what was really meant by virgin
or feeding 4000/5000 jews food..[all they lol wished
[without the riteual of handwashing jars..none could have eaten]
forget the dirty hands..look at the seating arrangment

NO ONE DARED to eat
but had food..they added back onto the plate
thus more came back than went in..

[heck i can do the trick today..
just give me dirty [unclean]..hands
[they sumply womnt eat..without the ritual of handwashing]

same thing with water into whine
no one would dare drink the best whine from a toilet
[and thats how the water jars are...little more than toilet's]

jesus should have said
give them the toilet waters

but heck this is xmass
lets exorsize at least..one demon..this year
lets egsamine..the satan clause..sepperate the saint from the messanger..carrying the real message

Dear Johan (OUG),

I'm glad that you've read, "Jesus The Man."
I've also read Richard Dawkins, "The God
Delusion," and many other works. I find that neither
book really affected my faith or my personal
beliefs. However, it does help put things into
perspective for me. How else will we learn?

OUG, There is little historical evidence for the existence of Jesus at all. Other than the 4 'acceptable' gospels there's not much else around. If he did exist at all and that is a big if, his birth would be as much a mystery as is most of his life. It was not uncommon for early writers of Christianity to attribute what they wrote to an early saint example "According to Peter etc etc...." This attributing lent weight to what they had to say. Over the centuries Christians have fashioned the Jesus story to suit their own particular machinations. The better the story sounded the more likely it was to be accepted as fact. Writers would add a good bit of embellishment to make the story go down well with the majority. By the year 2011 its become impossible to separate fact from fiction with anything to do with the life of Christ.

The existence of the Historical Jesus is a moot question where serious historians are concerned. There are certain crackpots like Robert Price (and a couple of others here and there) who make laughably poor attempts at arguing that the entire idea of Jesus was made up, but those arguments aren't really even considered by mainstream scholars. The reason they aren't considered is because those arguments rely on 1. Massive distortions and implausible interpretations of the historical evidence we do have for Jesus, plus 2. Improbable inferences based on stretched similarities with other ancient figures.

If you're interested in knowing why historians don't take the idea seriously in more detail, spend half an hour reading this 4 part series:

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Is-Jesus-Christ-a-Myth-Part-One-James-Hannam.html

Or if you want to spend more time, and get a range of views (including the aforementioned Robert Price), check out this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Five-Views/dp/0830838686/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324991362&sr=8-1

The real question isn't whether Jesus existed, but whether his claims to divinity are true. This is ultimately a spiritual and philosophical issue. However, we do have historical pointers which are suggestive of him being more than a mere man.

Oh, I definitely agree with this, Trav...

<<The real question isn't whether Jesus existed, but whether his claims to divinity are true.>>

But notice, though, that we never really question whether or not Horus or Mithra or any of the other Jesus parallels actually existed?

You don't think there may be some cultural bias there?

I've always been curious about that. Kind of like how those who hit rock bottom in life, and thus manage to "find God", funnily enough end-up finding that that God just happened to be the God that was predominant in their culture.

<<This is ultimately a spiritual and philosophical issue.>>

Okay then, if you can define “spiritual” and how it is a philosophical issue, we can go from there. But until then, your claim is meaningless.

<<However, we do have historical pointers which are suggestive of him being more than a mere man.>>

Such as?

AJ, considering my past experience of having these sorts of discussions with you, I foresee this as being a counterproductive exercise.

(I elaborated on my reasons for thinking this, in my post dated 26/10/11 http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12760&page=0#220691).

But wholly apart from my thoughts on our past duelling, AJ, I just think that the internet is not a productive medium for massdebates. Hence, I will leave my contribution at one comment.

Hope you are having a great Christmas season

Christians like to attribute so much as being the 'word of Jesus'. I say there is no evidence that anything contained in the 4 accepted Gospels is in any way the 'word of Jesus'. Even Christian will agree that none of the Gospels are a first hand account of the life of Jesus. If tested in a court of law the gospel evidence would be thrown out as unacceptable 'hear-say'.

The real question of whether Jesus existed, is not a spiritual issue, yet it ought to be a reasoned philosophical one. Saying "we do have historical pointers which are suggestive of him being more than a mere man" is a bare assertion until someone can provide more substance to support it.

Trav is right to refer to

"1. Massive distortions and implausible interpretations of the [little] historical evidence we do have for Jesus, plus

"2. Improbable inferences based on ..." those implausible interpretations.

Arguments from reference to an 'authority' of "mainstream scholars" infused with confirmation bias does not negate arguments against a historical Jesus, especially when there are no verified primary sources, or some viewed as primary are contradictory

eg. the "Pauline" 1 Cor.15

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that *he rose again the third day according to the scriptures*:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once.......
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all *he was seen of me also*, as of one born out of due time.

yet, the "Pauline" Galatians 1 says

11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that *the gospel I preached is not of human origin.*
12 **I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it**; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
.. and ...
16 ... *my immediate response was not to consult any human being.*
.. and
19 *I saw none of the other apostles* — only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

paul...i feel..jesus as a real person..[not god]
for me wether he actually lived is mute..he lives within my heart
just as much as god sustains the living from within me

if you like..i plus..jesus and god within me
is my sacred 'trinity'...but of course there is much more i hold dear[true]..within me...

so many lives experiences/teachings loves hates..within me...that i know how that guy felt..in the new testiment..[how i think of it as like romeo/juliet..may or may not have ever lived..but their lives..hold their own logic..[even if only within my mind]

its much the same re jesus..[i couldnt care less re his birth
but he WAS born...[thus cant be god..[god has no mother]
so god and jesus are two different things

[as much as the 'old man and the sea]..is about a man plus a fish]..real or imagined...they have a liogic...progression/life experience...i have noted..and accorded to it..and attatched into it

i chose to buy into it
i chose to learn by it
i chose to try to realise its intention
as it related to what i intend doing...i see god as ALL good..[to all of us]..the be all and end all...that we do to others..we do unto him

jesus..taught of the things of spirit
and of ritual..subverting reason

i know that of god is all good
and that of the christ..as being of higher human spirit
that kids can grasp god via the chist at a superfisial level
but adults can fill in more of the neuances..behind the fact

[the words are fact
wether they describe fact is irrelivant]
they talk of spirit/life...introducing concepts
rational...explaining..far beyond other writings]

jesus lives
in me..wether or not i live in him..well only time can reveal

he dont own me
i dont own him

but i
am gratefull to know of him
and thank him that the few words he spake..survived
just as he survived 'death'..just as i know..we all survive...'death'

great tidings
of great joy in...*DEED
only by our works...not our words

"" ... i feel..jesus as a real person..[not god]
for me wether he actually lived is mute..he lives within my heart
just as much as god sustains the living from within me

"if you like..i plus..jesus and god within me
is my sacred 'trinity'...but of course there is much more i hold dear[true]..within me... ""

Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 28 December 2011 7:51:36 AM

This emphasizes the theme that a lot of belief is about the personal; the internal ...

Yes Trav, and had you actually read my responses to your comments on that thread, you would’ve seen that I had demonstrated that your sniping and accusations of stone-throwing and “Gish Galloping” were unfounded and, ironically, amounted to nothing more than stone-throwing themselves.

But I’m not surprised by your response here, because we’ve discussed the evidence for the divinity of Jesus and it turns out that you don’t actually have any unfortunately. Nor do I think you can provide us with any meaningful definition of “spiritual” for that matter.

spritual...include's the ritual[rite]
as the be all and end all
that sustains their special creed's diversions di-visions

allows them
to lord it over their fathfull
much like a wolf farming a herd of sheep
hoping the innocents take their right to own the rite
as verifying their own brand..of loyalists..into their assumed

wolvereen staus
drink his blood
eat his flesh

eat his heart/liver
its all just too tribalistic
so passe...primate like[prim-ative]

demons rushing in..where angles fearlessly go
lets forgo the rite and ritual jesus said we can know good..one to one

no churches needed
infact avoid churches
so a church holds his corpse on its church wall
thats what demons do...just as demons kill the sacrifical sheep
bleed them dry..drink their blood...eat their flesh...ignorance of creed

see what they do
know them..by their works..

not their words
nor narrow definitions..
small petty rite...

[its all just a tad trite]
there is living to be lived

no death
honours..the life giving good[god]
who filled this life with good's...
good of god..

with grace/mercy..love thrown-in

en-joy

Greek authorities on Wednesday jailed the abbot of a 1,000-year-old Greek Orthodox monastery pending trial for his alleged key role in a $131 million land swap deal. Abbot Efraim was led to Athens' Korydallos prison. Efraim is from the Orthodox monastic sanctuary of Mount Athos — from which women and female animals have been banned since 1046.
Abbot Efraim will stand trial on charges of embezzlement, money laundering and making a false statement.

I thought I would post the above news story as its typical of what I'm always banging on about. The HYPOCRISY OF RELIGION. This time its the Bushy Beard Crowd of the wacko orthodox mob. No females allowed including sheep, but a bit of embezzlement, money laundering.etc is okay. With no women, including sheep, for the last 1,000 years can anyone tell me how the Bushy Beard Boys have been getting their 'jollies'. I wonder if they know the Pope said "Stop it or you'll go blind!" The hypocrisy of religion it never ends.

(1)

Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: "Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven's own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator" (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).

(2)

He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.

(3)

Mithra was called "the good shepherd, "the way, the truth and the light, redeemer, savior, Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

(4)

The International Encyclopedia states: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world ... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."

Cont'd

Cont'd

(5)

Chambers Encyclopedia says: "The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed -- against all evidence -- as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries -- symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) -- were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts."

(6)

Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: "The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians', purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord's supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December.... They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the Earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe" (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).



Cont'd

Cont'd

Reverend Charles Biggs stated: "The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).

(8)

In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.

(9)

He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

Happy Saturnalia.

Ammonite are you trying to infer that the Jesus story was lifted from this Mithras bloke's story. I will agree there are 1 or 2 vague similarities, but the main difference is missing. When Jesus was born there were donkeys present, where are the donkeys in your story,

And, and, and, we know that Mithras was pure myth, whereas Jesus was a REAL man. Why else would they have documented - two generations later - that women discovered Jesus’ empty tomb when women’s status in society back then was so low?! Huh? Huh? Huh?

Haha... Checkmate atheists!

I just don't get it.

Why can't we let people believe whatever they
want to believe as long as it doesn't hurt
anyone. Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, whatever
floats your boat. Why not follow the ethos -
"Live and Let Live." Why do we have to deconstruct
someone else's beliefs? Who cares? - as long as
these beliefs are not forced on anyone else.
Perhaps therein lies the problem? It's one thing
to believe that you're on the right path - I guess
quite another to believe that yours is the ONLY path.

Lexi,

I couldn’t agree more that we need to live and let live. That’s my ethos too. But at the same time, we need to remember: everything in moderation.

I think you “get it” more than you realise. You confirm this in the last sentence of your post. Only you fail to realise that even those who hold the more benign beliefs, still act as a cover for the extremists. If you belonged to a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest; to do otherwise is to be an enabler for the extremists who draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travellers.

But the bottom line here is that our beliefs inform our actions. That’s why it matters. We have millions - possibly billions - of people around the world (some in positions of power) who think that it’s alright to rape the Earth in any way they see fit because they think the world will come to an end soon - and possibly in our lifetime.

And that’s just one of many, many examples. You could list hundreds more. Just look at the US - it’s a basket case full of examples.

Religious belief is dangerous because it allows people who don’t have all the answers to think that they do. And while it would be unethical to attempt to (and just plain delusional to think that we can) stop people believing what they want, we can at least attempt to make them too embarrassed to voice dangerous views if they are clearly nonsense.

The only path religion leads anyone is UP THE GARDEN PATH. Its all bunk, made up fairy tales, put in place to subjugate the mass of people. keep those in power, in power. What ever good comes from Religion is purely accidental.

Oh, I forgot to mention those who would welcome the "end times" and purposefully try to bring it on.

And to be fair, I really should mention the basket case that is the Middle East when pointing out why out beliefs matter - and how they inform our actions.

Sorry, I had just finished reading an article on the lunatic governing Texas and running for president, Rick Perry, and had America on the brain.

AJ When has being a lunatic disqualified anyone from running (and winning) for president of the United States? They all have one thing in common. They all believe that God is on their side and they can do no wrong.

"Why can't we let people believe whatever they want to believe as long as it doesn't hurt anyone."

We can, Lexi, but they can't… For one of the most recent examples just check out the fight in Bethlehem at the Church of the Nativity between the Greek Orthodox and Armenian clerics.

It appears there is something innate about a religious attitude that the more publicly vehement an individual's "belief" is the more externally violent is that person's denigration and treatment of others whose "faith" is wrong.

Then mix in mob psychology and the rest is not just history… but what we are living with in most places in the world today.

The psychopathy of religious fervour is really interesting – or at least it is up to the point where others are not trying to control or kill you, especially when they think it is for your own "good".

As a concept for social behaviour, I'm not 'souled' on the idea!

just wondering to what new reformation
this deconstuction leads us to

i agree with lexies post
just wanted to addin..the jesus clause
love god by trying to love nerighbour
not his wife..or asss...

but ass leads [in the end]..to class
or to assinine..[to silly for words]
[ignore thy brothers nakedness]

havnt read ammonium nitrates yet
so really nuthing to say as yet..[as use-u-all]

the fight...at the christs birth place...
[with mops and brooms and buckets...and water]
could be seen as a baptism of water..that leads to the union of the fires..[passions]...

but what use imagining
that which may never cum..
christs house is just as divided
as his [our]..fathers other houses

[we all got them skelitans..of them strange uncles
wierd aunties..in all our closet-ings]..regardless of creed

one speck of greed
seeds the whole bunch
tars them all with the same thrush

mud sticks..yet is seldom actually sticky
but enough sticks..for someone to judge wrongly

[think of it like mum..critisising her child...

but you join her
and see where that gets ya

well amoanium...[nitrate mate]..i see the logic
''Happy Saturnalia.''..[it all fits..the known knowns]

has the myth-ra..any linkages to rome?
or sukkling on the wolverene...[i think we can convert]
at least we found where the mess-age's.. of christ got twisted

no doudt via some peer revieuw
peers that still got their messiah all wrong

lets get back to basics
celibrate myth-ra...celibrate jesus..celibate god
let give back to thore..or the first good god..[the one true good]
and his saints....[fellow goods...and fel-low..the aim of the bad-dies
that gave us satan clause]

anyhow..if the myth fits
give back to god the things of god
and respect the things of men...lets return dec 25 back to the myth

dec 5 to sinter class[a saint]

and give jesus
the first 8 days of the year
then on the eighth day...we all wake up
doing the right things for the right reasons

keep it up you athiests
im with ya...get the truth told
lets surround the temple...blowing our trumpets

and let things lay where they fall
then phorensicly sort..the facts back to the acts
lets make this YEAR...the sorting the spin from the cc rap

and begin doing everything right

next year

OUG, you say: "mud sticks..yet is seldom actually sticky
but enough sticks..for someone to judge wrongly" There is so much mud past and present to throw at religion, the whole thing should have chocked on it years ago.
Regardless if you believe in God, Bog or Zog that in itself doesn't make you a 'good person'. its you yourself that makes you 'good'. Your belief in God I'm sure gives you comfort and reassurance but that in it self does not make God real, no more than a child's belief in Santa makes him real. Like yours the child's belief is real.
I've never argued that the under lying principles of most religions are bad, the 'love thy neighbor' stuff, no one can argue that's bad. What is bad is how man has distorted these principles for his own ends.
Man created the God myth. I create God then I tell you God speaks to you through his representative on Earth (that's me and there are plenty of me's ) and I tell you what God commands of you {through me}. By playing on peoples fears and ignorance 'God' controls them. 'God' has forever been commanding his believers to "Go forth and smite the infidels." etc. to me religion has so much bad history mankind would be well rid of it no 42nd chance for religion with me.

Thank you everyone - thought the debate needed a reminder that myths are based upon myths which are based upon myths....

Why can't we simply be good to one another without all the mumbo-jumbo? Because a dogma is a useful tool - its all about power, who has it, who wants it and who will tolerate being controlled to the point where they believe it is the ONLY way.

The enlightened words attributed to Jesus were not original and preached by others such as Buddha 500 years earlier.

Why not accept that no single religion or dogma is the ultimate "right" one and simply be as fair and kind as you can be starting with yourself?

paul/quote..""Your belief..in God..I'm sure
gives you comfort..and reassurance..

but that in it-self
does not make God real,""

sorry paul..your wise..[otherwise]..but mate
this time..your wrong

see we invent our inventions..in our minds
some try to make what their minds 'sees'..into being real
[like marconi..or bell...or like the russian dude who 'invented'..made real tetrus]

he played it out in his mind..first
then made it real

see paukl..you got a fixed idea
of the infinite good...[try to see god...as the whole world wide web
and you fit into it..as you..just one poster on it]

together god is the www
the atonement[at one meant]
the collective sum totral of our lives experience ..memories feelingslusts wants needs urges etc[god is ALL...and within all]

that we do did to the leasst
[and to ourselves and the most]
anytghing we did we did to god..as god[with-in]

but i know its all russion to those
who thing god is sepperated [or sepperatable]..from his creation

""no more than a child's belief
in Santa..makes him real.""

paul
the gifts
it was the gifts..the love joy
that made it real for the children

at its essence...it feels nice
thus is worth doing...even if its the right thing
but at the wrong time/place..reasoning

""came..Like yours
the child's belief is real.""

as is the collective all[god]

""What is bad..is how man
has distorted these principles for his own ends.""

what we do is as nothing
what god does is every-thing
but when we do it for god...it MUST be good
[if only to sepperate CLEARLY..that of god[good]..from that of man

learn to sort the sheep from the goats
in gods time[at harvest]..when the tares [not god]
dont look like good..[wheat]

""Man created the God myth.""

paul..if energy CANT be created
NOR destroyed...where did that life energy
of this dead person go...who now is dead..but one sceond earlier was 'alife'

""I create God""

no paul..god created you
and aint that good?

""then I tell you God speaks to you
through..his representative..lol..on Earth""

paul...think of what we are

a communication device...[a link between heaven and hell]
a link between the light and the darkness

good/bad...real imagined
when we get inspired
we recieve communion...of like minds
from heaven and hell...our life is chosing to try to only do the good,..of heaven
by not setting anyone into hell

yes in time we might 'loose'..this intersection point
but believe me..thats a long way away

the earth is sustained
by the passions..of both heaven amd hell

those in hell..can come here
one step [life]..from heaven]
or chose to sink to an even lower hell

anyhow..have you notice anger..builds
as moere demons come in wispering their negative
and inspiration allows you to fly

[these are gods messangers[via the inner stil queit voice]
each responding..with their inputs..to whatever passions [enegies]..we emit..that sustains them

""(that's me and there are plenty of me's)""

here i can read your words
but your words set up emotions in my mind
these attract..angels and deemons..thoughts ideas in-spi-ration

""and I tell you what God commands
..of you..{through me}."""

and if its not ALL GOOD
it cant be from god!

""By playing on peoples fears and ignorance 'God'>>gods demons in-puts[in-spiration]..

"""controls them.""

the back dog...""'God' has forever been commanding
his believers to "Go forth and smite the infidels." etc.""

clearly smite disdnt come from good..!

""to me religion..has so much bad history..mankind
would be well rid of it..no 42nd chance for religion with me.""

for me its an easy lesson
bad seeds make bad fruit

but lets not judge the tree
just them judging thoughts...link others
into judging me..[and thee]..if its not all good

its not giving back the loving of neighbour
that charity[grace mercy].. that brings us closer..to good

good/god
good god

we can get it anytime we want
but if its all good..it cant decieve

dont reject the artist
or judge him..!..by a few of his more ill-litteral works
find the passion to love...anyhow paul

become a saul
rewrite it as saul did
find the good in you..thenn the god is everyone

a wise man can learn from the deeds/works..of a fool[or just words]
but a fool learns..only from what a wise man does*

anyhow its all good

The New Year is just around the corner
and it would be great if we at least tried to make
a new beginning. The only thing that I think any of us
can be responsible for is - our own minds. Without
personal commitment to the attributes of fair play
and integrity, our country is in great danger. Malice
and intolerance stalk our society, staking claims to our
minds. Our political conversation must shift away from
the mass, infantile finger-pointing that now pervades it.

I don't have all the answers to the big questions in life -
I'm still on my own journey of discovery . However,
although I'm not really great on making New Years Resolutions -
but I do have personal goals that I will try to keep. And
the biggest one is to work on myself a bit more - and try to
be a bit more understanding, compassionate, tolerant, and
not as judgemental. As Ammonite pointed out -
"be kinder and start with yourself." It's a good beginning -
especially with a New Year - where everything seems possible.

May it be a Happy New Year for us all!

"I don't have all the answers to the big questions in life -" Lexi why not! Seriously, no one has all the answers and those who pretend they do, are either lying or they delude themselves. Unfortunately one of the delusions many of our religious brethren suffer from is its all 'God's will'. Millions should suffer injustice in this life so they can be 'rewarded' in the next, so they tell us, bad luck if there is no next life. They also say the wrong doers will be punished in the next life, so much hangs on there being a next life.
Its not an accident that religion is strongest in the poorest of places, always offering false hope to people. Religion is such a powerful tool for those that want to be in control. The clergy although often well meaning people can be unwitting participants in this 'big lie'. In the past and today there have been clergy who have spoken out and many have paid the penalty for their actions, but so many have gone along with injustice and said nothing.

Dear Paul,

People tend to hang onto whatever gives them solace.
Perhaps that's human nature - I don't know. I do know
that when I was travelling around the poorest parts of
Mexico a few years ago - and saw the most magnificent
churches in the poorest of places - I couldn't help
asking - why this ornate church - the money spent could
have provided the entire village with irrigation for their
crops. I was told it was a matter of village "pride."
They chose to build the church for their self-esteem and
could manage the water problem in other ways.

I accepted the explanation. I suppose as an "outsider," it's
very easy to judge others by our standards but everything is
relative: everything has its story; and everyone has
obstacles to overcome. They are our greatest teachers.
Each of us goes through transitions and transformations.
The important thing is that we acknowledge them and learn from
them. Certain events in our lives change our perception and
perhaps help us to look at the world more clearly. Most of us
are not pundits and only have our own life experiences to go on.
We try as best we can to overcome the obstacles we face in life.
Sometimes we succeed, sometimes not. I guess the best we can
do is keep trying.

paul/quote..:""offering false hope to people.""

i look at it..not as faulse hope..as much as giving them a higher reasoning...of the goods inherant..in charity/grace/mercy...love

""Religion is such a powerful tool..for those that want to be in control.""

sure...and much abused
but in hell more of the same coin..is returned in full

""The clergy..although often well meaning people
can be unwitting participants in this 'big lie'.""'

or revealing a greater truth
while others..think to permiate great lies..for greater material advantage...[yet each reveals their inner being...that in the next life cant be hid]

you bare your soul
long after the material stain is removed
[there are no secrets..in the next life][think of saving someone...as multiplying karma...or as jesus said in the parrable...the servants who increased..their own grace..by giving others grace[get more grace]..

yet those returning only the gift[grace],
they are as nothing[the little they have..shall be taken]

""In the past..and today there have been clergy..who have spoken out and many have paid the penalty..for their actions,""

so it might seem
but how much more have they been compensated
the eternal comfort..vesis a material short term 'gain'

""but so many have gone along..with injustice and said nothing.""

great evil...allows for a greater good..to be done
its not trying..that adds up..to the karmic kickback

i know your works
we all know...thy works

those serving the vile...belong to the vile
have earned...back...all they took/gave..
in the same coin..they took/gave