Israel is an invented state too, so stop giving us more of your Zionist BS.

David

A really pathetic article. Indicative of what passes of as 'balance' these days in the media.

Why didn't we get a story about the history of nations using the Palestine story as a starting point?

Some brief points of view on my part...

The Palestinians were forced into becoming a nation as a result of the creation of the modern Israeli state.

The state that wants to call itself Macedonia is another interesting case that bares comparison. The people of this nation were asked/forced to be either Greek, Bulgarian or Serbian, but ultimately chose a unique identity (although I disagree with the name, I can see why they developed a unique national identity).

David,

This is really a silly position to take - everybody is an invented people, every nation has been invented, pulled together from bits and piece, and mythically united from forever.

China ? Originally the Chins were one group along the middle Huanghe (probably one tribe within the group of tribes along the Huanghe) who gradually defeated and exterminated most of their neighbours. Even so, the China of three hundred years ago (when 'it' was ruled by the Manchus) didn't extend so far south, and certainly didn't include Taiwan.

England ? We used to learn about King Alfred (of one part of 'England') defeating some of the other kingdoms of the island and uniting a part of the south. Even so, until barely five hundred years ago, most of 'England' was in France. Parts of France were in Spain and Germany. Bits of 'Germany' were all over the place.

The United States ? Is Gingrich serious ? 250 years ago, it didn't exist except as a string of colonies on the north American east coast, up to and including British Canada and newly conquered Quebec (which later wanted to join the 13 ex-colonies). Most of the 'United States' then was part of the Spanish and French Empires, all the Gulf coast, right up the Mississippi-Missouri valleys and the west coast. Alaska and Finland were parts of the Russian empire. Norway was part of Sweden's.

India ? Until 1947, when was it ever a single, united country ? When did Jordan become a 'nation' ? Or Libya ? Or Turkey ? Don't mention the old USSR. How long has Spain been just Spain, and not half of Europe under the Bourbons ?

And so on. The modern world is made up of countries which have all been invented, mostly over the last 200 years. Palestine and Israel are not that different. Get over it.

Joe

More bible inspired drivelling rot. Not a mention of the thousands of people driven from their homes and land by the American backed Zionist movement and made virtual prisoners - nor a mention of the clear archaeological evidence that the exodus and the eventual arrival at the 'promised land' is nothing but myth. The bible inspired banality of the present gamut of republican candidates is frightening indeed.

David

It seems, because of how you upset people in here, that like Israel, you are eventualy destined to be friendless.

How are those stone throwing Palestinian boys, David, are they still being handcuffed and shackled for their appearances before those Israeli Military star chambers?

Why are you writing in support of the idiots who want the Israeli Military to shoot them?

Why are you as a lawyer still writing articles supporting a government and people who champion such an unjust system?

Palestine is simply a name for the region derived from Greek. It was used in the 1921 League of Nations mandate as the name for the region establishing a Jewish state:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp

The truth of Israel and Palestine is complicated. Neither exist as a direct result of either the League of Nations or the UN. Israel was simply declared a state and recognised by many countries, and the same has now happened with Palestine. A two state solution has been the consensus to the area (aside from Jordan of course) for much of the past couple of decades and it seems that this seems to be the best option for now.

VK3AUU

So, direct quotes from tthe 'League of Nations' charter, the 'United Nations' and the 'PLO articles are Zionist BS.'? Hmmm, how do you get that?

Machina is correct. At the dismemberment of the Ottoman empire a varety of 'states' were created; Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc all with international recognition. Why is it just the tiny bit of territory called 'Isreal' that should be the the exception and should not have been deliniated as well? With regard to the 'eviction' of peoples from these states, what do you think happened to the tens of thousands of Jews and christians in the newly formed 'non isreal' states? What is happening to Coptic christians and Jews currently resident in Egypt, Irak, jordan, lebanon?

A wrong committed in Egypt doesn't suddenly become a right when it is committed in Israel.

David

This time David Singer is correct!

The KGB-invented idea of being "Palestinian" has brought so much suffering to the people so named. Before being conscripted to that fake "national" cause, they lived peacefully and prospered under Israeli occupation, free to move and do what they wanted. Their suffering began only once they were incited to resist Israel, then came the suspicion and with it the restrictions, the road-blocks, the searches, the arrests, the settlers, the land-confiscations, the demolitions and the inhumane treatment. The KGB is no longer, but they still suffer of that momentum.

Those poor people are still used by the Left as an anti-American whip. Who cares that every action has a reaction and so being a whip hurts just as being the whipped?

Despite the cruelties of the Israeli occupation, most "Palestinians" privately still prefer it over their own cruel and corrupt regime - how much more so over the bloody rule of Hamas, whose leader actually stated: "We are not Palestinians - we are Muslims. There is just one nation and only one nation which should rule Palestine - Muslims, Muslims and Muslims, that's who we are".

Nevertheless, Israel does not owe them its custody. Israel should leave the occupied territories ASAP for its own good, even if it means harsher times for those poor locals, so-called "Palestinians", who fall in the cracks of history.

However you define a "a people" - and I'm sure you can define it to get whatever answer you want - the Palestinians who were expelled from their homes, and those who fled from the fighting and sought to return, were real people.

Nothing Singer has said gives any reason to justify this - and this is what the claimed "right of return" is all about (except that since the evil Singer endorses has continued for over 60 years now, it is in most cases their children and grandchildren).

No doubt Singer can define "a people" in such a way as to make Jews from all over the world "a people" and Palestinians living in Palestine (or their children and grandchildren) not "a people", but, even so, why does that give the former a right to the homes and land of the latter?

This load of BS is nothing new well not to me. I was Deputy Chair for the Arab Council Australia when I was asked if I would debate Jeffrey Jones of the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council for SBS TV. The topic was to be the viability of a two state solution Palestine and Israel.

I was foolish enough to think we were going to debate on peace in the Middle East and the various plans put forward. It soon became obvious that Mr Jones wasn't interested in peace he claimed that there is not and never has been a state called Palestine so there was no need for a two state solution.

The debate became heated and though not a Palestinian myself Mr Jones was so irrational and condescending that it irritated me no end.

Finally I asked Mr Jones if it was his viewpoint that there were no official documents in the name of Palestine he confirmed that I was quite correct. I then took out of my attache case to land title deeds for orchids in Jaffa and Haifa respectively they were written in Arabic and in English and on the English side in large capitals was written Mandated Palestine and my father's name and the acreage.

I asked Mr Jones what he considered the documents to be? My question was met with silence and the debate terminated

Whatever the boundaries of Israel will eventually be (we do not know what these are at present) the State will be occupied by a 'people', many of whom will be descendants of Kahzars with no possible links to the land.

It will also be occupied by half a million 'non-people' whose ancestors have lived there for a thousand years. The 'people' have decided that it will be a Jewish State. It will therefore have to reinforce this racist concept with even more apartheid type laws and more ethnic cleansing.

If they are successful I wonder how this pariah state will live and trade and act as world citizens in conjunction with all the other countries in the world. It appears to me that they are racing towards their own disaster.

"It appears to me that they are racing towards their own disaster"

- Aren't we all?

"many of whom will be descendants of Kahzars with no possible links to the land."

- Except for being born there and knowing no other home: is that not a link enough?

"It will also be occupied by half a million 'non-people' whose ancestors have lived there for a thousand years."

- If they behave as 'non-people', they will be treated as such.

"The 'people' have decided that it will be a Jewish State."

- And they can therefore change that decision, which I believe they will once they no longer feel that their lives are under external threat.

"It will therefore have to reinforce this racist concept with even more apartheid type laws and more ethnic cleansing."

- That will entirely depend on the neighbouring people: if they continue to employ terror, then they will indeed receive apartheid terror in return.

"If they are successful I wonder how this pariah state will live and trade and act as world citizens"

- Anyone's first concern is to survive. Only when you feel safe you may contemplate such luxuries as being "world citizens".

lol david
your so funny
semite covers more than just israel

as for newt
goyishe kup...[right]..wink wink nudge nudge

who makes the most holy place a war zone?
we should expect more from the 'chosen people'
who cheated the red string,..then later betrayed the rite

those clever few..who cant put ursury on themselves but heck the goy
no sweat...that 911 thing was clever..[i will admit]

anyhow if you dont know what goyishe kup means
you know your not the super elite few
who want iran really bad

ron paul would be better
but heck he would only get bumped
and the vp runs the usa cash cow..direct into the unholy lands

all land belongs to god
live with it

that obtained by vile
has gods curse wrote large upon it
the balfore letter..dont outweight god's claim

how did the family levie
loose to the unholy of zion

via the deciets of yiddish and the new unholy texts
in the book less than two hundred years..and a deniable unspeakable texdt even their own deney..you insult my semite people

[but as god has caused to be written..those who say/think..god tests..
decieve themselves..[he don't*make them go insane first..either

thats the fruit
by their works shall we know them

Indeed it is long past time that the truth about Palestine (and the Zionist regime in Israel) were told in the Australian media. But don't expect to find it in the columns written by Mr Singer. His rewriting of history, cultural blindness and inability to see the facts as they are have too long disgraced the pages of online opinion. It is one thing for the editors to promote a diversity of opinion; it is quite another to promote this endless propaganda. Perhaps the editors could take a page out of Sarkozy's book and tell Mr Singer that he has passed a golden opportunity to shut up.

Palestine - time to tell the truth?

Whose truth?

The moment any historian begins to look critically
at events, at things like motivation, circumstances,
context, or any other such considerations, the product
(truth?) becomes unacceptable for one or another camp
of readers.

People are usually more interested in condemnation
and punishment than in explanation. Explanations seem
tantamount to sympathizing and excusing. This often
all too easily leads onto the questionable practice of
stereotyping nations and people. Continued stereotyping
of any nation, can encourage "counter-stereotyping,"
and the sad result is usually a complete breakdown in
communication.

While there exists a reluctance for either side to modify
their judgements - this conflict will continue.
Antony Loewenstein, in his book, "My Israel Question,"
tells us:

"It is time for a radical rethinking of the conflict...
I support the rights of Israelis to live in peace and
security, but not at the expense of the Palestinians.
Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need for 'security,'
as though that justifies erecting walls, checkpoints and barriers?
Why is the world told to believe that the Palestinians should
only accept peace on Israel's terms? I've come to the sad
realisation that many in the West simply don't like Arabs or
Palestinians very much and therefore believe that we have the
right to treat them as we wish..."

"The Kadima vision is of a concrete wall, with Jews on one side
and as many Arabs as possible on the other. Sooner or later,
Israel and the Palestinians will have to meet face-to-face,
listen to each other's grievances and negotiate with honesty.
Only then - and on condition that both Israel and the Palestinian
state achieve safety and security - will this conflict be resolved.
Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only one
party has the power to end the occupation and to recognise
that Israel and Palestine are historically destined to share the
same homeland."

Dear Lexi,

Somehow as usual, the discussion turned away from the original topic to be about Israel and its right or otherwise to exist.

What David Singer wrote about "Palestinians" is true, although for any practical purpose it really makes no difference.

"The Kadima vision is of a concrete wall"

A wall is needed in order to keep away the bad people, those who want to shoot and plant bombs and those who try to impose their way of life on the population. It makes no difference whether these are Arabs or Jews.

The prevailing idea as if there is a conflict between Arabs (or Palestinians) and Jews is extremely superficial. The number of opposing groups in that region is much bigger than two, where the differences between moderate "Jews" and moderate "Palestinians" are tiny, if any, compared with the huge differences within each so-called "camp". How can you suggest that Jews and Arabs share the same homeland with each other when they cannot even share it with their own kin!?

The extreme Jews do not want peace, while the extreme Arabs do not want a state. They each want the others out, nothing else, even if it costs them their life. If it was up to the moderates, there would have been no conflict in the first place.

Given this situation, there is no point in negotiations. Even if a settlement were to be reached, none of the sides would be able to keep it due to the internal conflicts. so why bother? If anyone really cares about peace, then talking is not enough: some military force needs to step in and just say: "You go to the left; You go to the right; You go up in smoke; and here shall stand the wall."

Dear Yuyutsu,

I still have hope in my heart that the good
people will win out and that one day, perhaps
not in our immediate future, but one day ...

Winning at someone else's expense is an old
paradigm and an increasingly obsolete model
of success. Separation leads to disintegration,
and joining leads to miracles.

We have to remove the walls that separate us and
the chains that hold us down. We have to remove
from our hearts the illusion that we are separate
and find at last the one heartbeat we share.

I find I have little stomach for rehashing arguments I have made against most of the points Mr Singer has again raised in what has become a depressingly long series of articles trumpeting the same propaganda message.

I have long lambasted him for trying to disappear the Palestinian people, an action I find deplorable.

I will however address the use of Newt Gingrich to support his contentions. This is a man who has been prepared to sell himself to the highest bidder (although I agree it is not unusual in American politics), had 84 ethics charges brought against him as Speaker, was fined $300,000 for those breaches and sanctioned by the house in a 395-28 vote.

He was the main protagonist in the actions against President Clinton over the Lowinski affair all the while carrying on an affair himself. He served divorce papers on his first wife while she was laying in a hospital bed battling cancer. Then went on to have an affair on his second wife.

After leaving congress in 1999 he set up lobbying companies and received payments from places like Freddie Mac, all the while condemning the practice in public.

In 2006 his declared wealth was $2.4 million but by 2010 it was $6.7 million.

He is a hypocrite, a crook, a liar, an adulterer and a nasty piece of work.

Some of his incredibly shady dealings continue to come to light. One involving his second wife Marrianne, an arms dealer. and the Israel Export Development Corporation for whom his wife worked. make fascinating reading.

http://www.dcbureau.org/201112136815/national-security-news-service/newt-gingrich-marianne-and-the-arms-dealera-buried-fbi-investigation.html#more-6815

It is very hard to ascribe anything but base motives for his recent statements about Palestinians. He is dropping quickly in the Republican nominee polls, especially to Ron Paul who has delivered a damning series of ads against him. Gingrich is desperate to open purse strings to keep his campaign afloat and is as unprincipled as they come.

A man for hire in anyone's language one can only imagine what his price was this time.

David,dear friend.
Newt has the brains of a newt.
The Palestinians are an invention,eh?
Listen up pal.They arent goin' anywhere. get used to it. The biggest delusional player here are the right wing ultra-fundamentalist Israelis.Dont worry about that. They base their identity on a historical fiction that they have injected into their politics and tried to make the basis of their piracy of real estate.
Half of moderate Israelis know what I am talking about. I have been in Tel Aviv long enough to tell you they are tired of the nethanyu charade
and are longing for some moderate policies that take the Palestinians into a deal. This gives those across the waters in the good ole US of A people like the Newt the absolute s..ts.

socratease

"I think that we've had an invented Palestinian people who are in fact Arabs and who were historically part of the Arab community. And they had a chance to go many places, and for a variety of political reasons we have sustained this war against Israel now since the 1940s, and it's tragic."

The idea that Palestinians are 'Arabs' and therefore should simply 'disappear' or join other Arabs outside Israel is, of course, racist, in that it denies Palestinians their human rights to their ancestral lands and the right to resist invasion. Gingrich is a moral imbecile.

David Singer, you must be desperate, to quote such a statement, as support for Israel's systematic disposession of the Palestinians

"The idea that Palestinians are 'Arabs'"

In 1948 they WERE Arabs and preferred to be part of Syria or Egypt. Perhaps now they are not and that's fine, but history is still history.

"and therefore should simply 'disappear'"

Who said that?

(but on the other hand, they wish the Israelis to 'disappear', which is as unlikely)

"or join other Arabs outside"

Most diaspora-Palestinians would have loved it, and in Jordan they actually did, but most Arab countries do not allow them. Lebanon especially holds them in sub-human conditions, using them for propaganda against Israel, not allowing them to leave their camps and have a life.

"Israel is, of course, racist"

Perhaps so, but that's besides the point: would any country in the world be willing to allow millions of hostile people to enter and deliberately overturn it from within?

"in that it denies Palestinians their human rights"

It's true and should be corrected, but even so they still currently have more human rights than in Lebanon and when under their own rule.

"to their ancestral lands"

They should get used to the idea that their lands are no longer there. Nobody is going to bulldoze freeways, factories, schools, hospitals and even residential high-rise buildings in order to rebuild the mud-houses of their grand-grand parents from the 1940's.

Many others have lost their ancestral lands, but everyone besides them has gotten over it and started again - except that their Arab brothers would not allow them!

"and the right to resist invasion."

The most ineffective and counter-productive form of resistance. If only they gave up terror against civilians, there would be no invasion ages ago. They also were twice offered to end the invasion (at least 99% of it), but they refused. At least they could have taken the 99% and kept demanding the other 1%, but no. It seems that they like the invasion more than [most of] the Israelis do, and probably for good reasons.

Yuyustu,

(1)Who said that the Palestinians would 'disappear'? Well, actually, it was the Zionists, the disapperance of the indigenous inhabitants of the region was always implicit in the Zionist enterprise(as with the colonisation of Australia and the Americas) and explicit in Zionist writings.

See 'The Arabs' by Eugene Rogan.

(2)'the mud-houses of their grand-grand parents from the 1940's.'

You're trying the justification 'Look how the colonists improved the area,the natives simply did nothing with the land'. So what,does the Palestinians 'failure to develop' invalidate their human rights and justify dispossession? Not now, not ever.

'Many others have lost their ancestral lands, but everyone besides them has gotten over it and started again' yes, except for those Zionists who decided to start again on someone else's land.

Yes, of course, the violence is all due to the intransigence of the Palestinians. Just ignore the facts that (1)the Israelis have the well-oiled war machine and are supported by the morally bankrupt US (2) the Palestinians are relatively defenceless (3) the 'settlements' continue to expand and the (4) the Zionist project is not complete.

Dear Mac,

Zionism was never a monolithic movement. Certain branches of Zionism, notably that of its formal founder, Herzl, stressed the importance of including the native Arabs in their plans. Even Zabotinsky, the founder of revisionist-Zionism (of which the Likud and Netanyahu are followers) initially stressed the importance of including the Arabs. However, he changed his ideas about it following the Hebron pogrom in 1929. Likewise, there are some Zionists who consider Zionism complete and some that do not.

Re mud-houses, I was not suggesting a pro-progress argument (if you knew me, several colleagues here consider me a Ludite...), but simply that on the one hand those mud-houses could not stand this long anyway and on the other, nobody in their right-mind would be willing to destroy so much that they've built. We need to be real about it.

The Zionists indeed decided to start again on someone else's land - by buying that land, in cash and much cash: what's wrong with that?
(but obviously this does not justify those parts of the land that were not purchased)

Re well-oiled-war-machine, how else could they do given the bitter attacks on their lives and outright declarations by Arab countries of their intention to throw them to the sea?

Palestinians are not defenceless: they have Iran and Hezbollah behind them with 10,000's of deadly missiles, then Syria and Iran with much more, including chemical weapons, and soon nuclear too.

Re USA, indeed unfortunate, sigh, France used to be a better ally of Israel. But what to do if nobody else comes to help?

Re settlements-and-Zionism, I couldn't agree more, but most ordinary Israelis are victims of that, not the perpetrators.

In summary, it's not black and white. Both "sides" suffer more from extremists within than from the "others".

Dear Yuyutsu,

You claiming that the KGB created the idea of a Palestinian is like claiming Mossad created Hamas.

Oh, wait....

I support Israel all of the way. I have nothing but the greatest respect for the secular Jews who have done more to advance science than any other race, but what I think of the Orthodox Jews, I had better keep to myself, lest I get banned from OLO for life.

I find it amusing that the Arabs, at one time the most aggressive, and genocidal race on planet Earth, are now portraying themselves as victims. When it comes to ethnic cleansing, the Arabs are past masters at it. Every sane person who studies history knows exactly what the problem that the Arabs have with Israel. Israel was an infidel state conquered by Islam which has reclaimed its independence, and that is total anathema to the Muslims, and the Arab Muslims especially.

All this crap about poor “Palestinaians” is just a ruse to fool the “progressive” elements in western countries who think that always opposing the opinions of your own governments, or the interests of your own people, indelibly marks you as someone with superior intelligence and moral virtues.

The doublethink involved by western “progressives” who ignoring the fact that the Arabs have almost completely ethnically cleansed their own territories, while complaining that those dreadful Jews are returning the compliment to the Arabs, is rather breathtaking.

To all of you western pseudo-intellectuals who think that Israel is in the wrong, what do you think will happen if the Arabs finally destroy Israel? Do you think that the Arabs are going to show their moral superiority over the Jews and remave any racist laws in the new state of Palestine, then sit down with the Jews singing Kumbaya? Because if you do, I would like to sell you a harbour bridge in Sydney, cheap.

Get on YouTube and have look at all of those lovely and intelligent looking Israeli Army teenage girls toting Armalites. They know exactly what is in store for them if the Arabs ever over run Israel, and most of them would rather die on their feet before they allow the Arabs to get them on their backs

"most of them would rather die on their feet before they allow the Arabs to get them on their backs"

That seems to be the province of the Israeli army officers.

David

Merry Christmas Leggo.

I've never been anything other than open minded, I vote libera,l am a capitalist and believe in a god but am totally irreligeous.

I reject Israel's totalitarian attitudes, laws and expansionist aggression. Jewishness, Christianity or Islamism has little to do with the formation of my opinion... I despise them all equally.

I think the Sydney Harbour Bridge may have already found it's buyer. Enjoy.

'most of them would rather die on their feet before they allow the Arabs to get them on their backs"

That seems to be the province of the Israeli army officers.'

David

And the odd Israeli President.

If you would like to read the true story of the Zionists takeover of Palestine, read Blood Brother by Elias Chacour. Some more material is at http://www.bookrags.com/studyguide-blood-brothers/

David

I don’t think that Israel is expansionist enough, Imajulianutter. I was fair enough to take the Arab lands won during the first Israeli war, after all, if you think different, perhaps you should be screaming about the annexation of Prussia (long considered the heart of Germany) by the Russians in 1945. How about all of the other German land taken from Germany by the victorious allied powers that was given to Czechoslavakia, Poland and France? Nobody whinges about that, because the consensus is that the Germans started the war and they deserved to have their land taken.

Now, apply the same logic to the Arabs.

The Arabs tried to wipe out Israel, and they failed. I don’t blame the Israelis from taking land from their enemies, especially land such as the Golan which is critical to Israels survival. The Israelis gave the Golan back to Egypt, and it now looks like the gyppoes will break their peace treaty with them. The Israelis gave back land to the so called “Palestinians” and all they got for thanks was Katyushka rockets sailing over their borders from Gaza.

The Israelis have just as much right to enact racist laws in their country as the Muslims have to enact racist laws against non Muslims in their countries. But how come you never squeal about the plight of non Muslims in Muslim countries? No. All your bile is directed towards Israel, because you have been conditioned to think that “intelligent” people support “Palestine”. And your self image is more important to you, than doing your homework and figuring out that the “Palestinians’ that you support are using you as an easily led fool.

I lived through a time when people like yourself thought the diametric opposite. I mean, you were just not cool unless you were a female who have been to Israel, worked on a Kibbutz, and got ferked by an Israeli para. But sometime during the late seventies, fashions changed, and people like yourself discarded the Israeli cause just like you discard you last summers dress to pick another from a clothing catalogue.

Leggo you are a disgrace.

Your language displays your inherent racism and your boorish mysogynism.

And your justifications your stupidity.
You won't complain in the future when Israel is overrun by Arab people will you?

I condemn Israel simply because it claims to be western liberal democratic in nature. The Arab states don't do that. When they present themselves as such obvious liars, as the Israelis do, then I'll condemn them equally.

I discarded Israel once I saw their oppression and land stealing.

The vast majority of us in the west questioned and rejected Israel after their defeat, by a bunch of lightly armed 'terrorists', during the Israeli aggressive expansionism in Lebanon and subsequent forced retreat.

Btw Golan is part of Syria not Egypt which Israel illegally keeps because of it's water. Don't ghet much right ... do you?

LEGO, You say "the Arabs tried to wipe out the Israelis".
That is only partly the story.It may have looked like it to you and every apologetic Zionist.
What the Arabs tried to do was to resist the Zionists breaching the Balfour Declaration that they, the Jewish political multimillionaires, were happy to accept at that time.
They had to give their word that nothing would be done unilaterally. Nothing would be done witout the agreement of the indigenous Arab population and nothing should be done that would disadvantage the Arabs.
Now comes the moment of truth,LEGO.If you can stand the truth!
Tell me honestly whether that is true or not. Everything that happened from that year onwards has been a betrayal of the truth.
Is it a fact or not that Israel has repeatedly ignored the UN Rewsolutions condemning the land grab?

Just these TWO vital questions,Lego. We are waiting your response.
socratease

Dear Lego,

Your quote; "The Israelis have just as much right to enact racist laws in their country as the Muslims have to enact racist laws against non Muslims in their countries."

Could just as easily read;"The Germans had just as much right to enact racist laws in their country as the Israelis have to enact racist laws against non Israelis in their countries."

Really?

csteele,

Agreed, that's obvious to all except Zionists and their fellow travellers whose attitudes towards the Palestinians seem reminiscent of 19th century European colonialists.

Regrettably, unlike South Africa, Israel has a very powerful friend.

LEGO,

Try reading a history of the foundation of Israel that wasn't written by Zionist propagandists, you might be enlightened. Oy vey!

As to Arab terrorism, google the 'Stern Gang'--'sow the wind....'

hey you....
yes you...

the lady
moove...to the back of the bus

how do you know a racist...[ok sexist]
live in israel...take anything you want

build ya own prison walls

serve satan...call him god
then be gods people...under the faulse god of bias hate fear and war

by their deeds[works]..can you tell...them
the life giving good god..is not served by any death

we either love neighbour...make their lives better
or we serve the satan claws[santa clause]..by love of murder

one or the other
if its not love..its hate

Hi imajulianutter, I am a racist but not a misogynist.

Israel is a western democracy in which Arabs and Christians make up second class citizens, and I don’t see anything wrong with that. I do not see anything wrong with a majority wishing to preserve their own cultural values by discriminating against those who do not share their culture. Especially when those values make their nations a success and keep their people safe. The Muslims have been doing it for centuries, their problem is that their culture is the reason why their communities are poverty stricken unsafe.

We have the same thing in Australia, white people may not enter “aboriginal” lands without permission, because the abos want to preserve their failed stone age culture, and naturally you see nothing wrong with that. Australia also has many racist laws which which legally make whites unequal to blacks. What amuses me is that there is a clear double standard here, yet you with your doublethink mentality is completely unable to grasp it.

You seem to hold Israel to moral perfection because it is a democracy, while studiously ignoring the almost complete lack of human rights in Muslim countries. Tell me, are you morally perfect yourself? Or do you consider yourself a basically honest and compassionate person who has done a few naughty things and acted in your own self interest on occasion? If the latter, why do you hold the Israelis to a higher standard than you do yourself? And would you not feel offended if some people never stopped complaining about your few sins, when you live in a neighborhood full of violent thieves, misogynists, and religious fanatics, whos behaviour they pointedly ignore?

The reason why people such as yourself turned your backs on Israel is for a very good reason. People with your mindset divide the world into oppressors and victims. Israel was once considered a victim, and the Arabs the oppresors. But Israel did something wrong. It kept winning its wars. And since winners are always oppressors and losers always victims, your Brahmin caste simply switched sides.

Dear Lego,

Again.

Here were the poor oppressed Germans, living under the extreme deprivations imposed by the victors of the first world war, who finally stood up for themselves.

Wasn't their leader lionized, Time Man of the Year, his picture gracing the desk of Henry Ford.

Then they went and had the temerity to go take a bite out of Czechoslovakia and to slap the Poles around a little.

To borrow your words if I may;

'The reason why people such as yourself turned your backs on Germany is for a very good reason. People with your mindset divide the world into oppressors and victims. Germany was once considered a victim, and the victors the oppresors. But Germany did something wrong. It kept winning its wars. And since winners are always oppressors and losers always victims, your Brahmin caste simply switched sides.'

You are making so much sense.

Hi socratease

Q1 The Balfour Declaration which assured the European powers that a Jewish state would respect the rights of non Jews was violated by the Jews, when the Jews realized that the Muslims would never accept a minority role in a Jewish state, and that they wanted to kill every Jew that came near them.

Q2 Israel routinely ignores every UN resolution, just like the Muslims do.

What we have are two mutually hostile ideologies and competing to govern one territory. Only one can win. Whoever wins will do their best to make the other guys feel unwelcome, because their opponents represent a continuing threat to the sovereignty of the ruling culture. Personally, I think that the Jews are a lot more humane in making the Muslims unwelcome, than if it were a case of the other way around.

So, who do we support, the Zionists or the Islamists?

My preference is for the “Zionists’, for many reasons. Firstly, they have the largest historical claim. Secondly, no other race has done more to advance western civilization than the secular Jews. Thirdly, the Jews have done a masterful job of nation building. Israel is a democracy which has far more respect for human rights than exist in any Muslim country. Economically, Israel should be a failed state. It has almost no natural resources and survives entirely upon the industry of their own intelligent and hard working people. I like people with brains.

The biggest indictment of Islam is, that the more Islamic it is, the more medieval it is, and the more of a backward economic black hole it is. Muslim countries are not noted for economic, social, industrial, or scientific advancement. Despite muslim lands possessing some of the worlds most fertile regions, despite many of them floating on oceans of oil, and despite being the possessors of many of the world’s most revered archeological treasures, despite abundant natural resources, Muslim countries are noted for economic failure.

So, purely using merit as a guide, my support is to the Israelis

Hi csteel. and your point is............?

LEGO,

"...and survives entirely upon the industry of their own intelligent and hardworking people. I like people with brains."

...."entirely"?

"Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annually to Israel...Almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military aid..."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

Dear Lego,

You are making the points not me.

All I'm doing is assisting with a little species identification for the readers.

I mean you have already self identified as foul, sorry fowl.

If you walk like a duck, and squawk like a duck then you are probably a duck. Or at the very least a high stepping goose.

Plus the red markings between the head and shoulders is a bit of a giveaway.

Though perhaps more seasoned Twitchers might have a different assessment.

Dear Poirot,

$3 billion is a drop in the ocean in the Israeli GDP. Israel is not allowed to use this money except for buying weapons made by American companies, even (as is often the case) when better and cheaper products are available. In effect, this is a scheme of the American government using a legal loophole to subsidize their own industry.

It is Israel's tragedy that it has no friends other than the Americans - who are not its real friends anyway but do it all for their own interests. Israel is being used as the USA's scapegoat, being hated and stoned in their place, which for the Americans is very convenient.

I bet that had Israel not been supported by the Americans, then all other lofty accusations that are handed here against it would be quickly forgotten, except perhaps by the Muslim fundamentalists, if indeed there are any on OLO.

Israel can benefit a lot from the ascent of Ron Paul. If Newt is elected, that would be its final downfall.

israel has recieved over one trillion in war gifts
not including star-wars...

designed by usa to defend
the davidian star

the jewish star war's offensive susstem

used to subvert..the peoople of the lampstand
into a zion adgenda..via yiddish deciets

What if the Holocaust
was as full of as many lies..as modern war propaganda?

Because of the myth of the "good war" millions have been pointlessly murdered by needless interventionism. Without the Holocaust narrative WWII is nothing but another colonial resource war. That is why no one can talk about the holocaust. it is illegal in Europe and Canada and career suicide in America

http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26870

when can israel...zionists..'tell the truth'
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17033

its clear that the zionista...are clearing the decks
for more faulse flags...[watch for any black/swan events]

if it looks like..the act of the godless
it serves the godless adgenda
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/12/new-year-prediction-israel-and-us-will.html

every death..demeans the life giving good[god]
sustaining every living being our living

little wonder they dare not..even say his name

much like the demons
that get off on drinking blood

and hang dead corpses on holy places
do unholy things..to the holy land...but what the heck

who knows whats really happening
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

the media dont allow itself to be used for revealing fact
not when spin and fiction work so well for those owning most of it
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/four-companies-that-control-147.html

well here is some news
it all belongs to god

if you cant share
go build ya own..[use your own dust]

Lego
in reply to Q!:

The Jews violated their promise to Lord balfour which was the basis of the creation of the state of Israel, you say the jews knew the Arabs would never give the jews a fair go. The Arabs and Jewws had lived in peace for thousands of years before the 20th century. The Jews were a majority in many places in Palestine. They never even [planned a confederation. From the start they exploited their connections with the Christian West to gain all the advantages. The piss weak Balfour and later the UNO fell for the trap, hook line and sinker. Is it any wonder that Hamas still refuses to recognise Israel which is a rogue state.
I,personally, am mortified that fate has put me in the Arab corner. I am uncomfortable there. Its being hoisted on my opwn petard. But that in no way finds me exonerating the Israeli land thieves.

socratease

Lego,
I base my morality on Christs Sermon on the Mount.

What do you base yours on?

'I am a racist but not a misogynist.'

Wrong, you are both. Your Generalised statement about working on kibbutz's and Israeli parasses should have included reversed roles.

... and since you didn't dispute my claim of you being stupid ... you've left me deducing that you also see yourself as obviously stupid.

Israel isn't western nor liberal and if you think western democracy allows ethnic cleansing and forced disposition of property of minorities by majorities I think you might see we've fought a war or two over just that issue.

But then again comprehension and expression aren't your strongest suits.

Jews and Muslims got along amicably in “Palestine/Israel”, Socratese, because the Muslims believe that Jews and Christians are worshipping an outdated form of Islam, and as such they are “of the book”. That means that they can be tolerated, provided that they submit to subservience and pay a special tax.

The Koran is very clear that such people are still sub human, as Allah wrote in his Koran that “I have made non Muslims out of base material.” Seems like Allah and Hitler are getting along fine in the Muslim heaven. As a matter of fact, Hitler even loudly praised the Muslim religion, while the Muslim leaders of his time (and even today) think Hitler was a great man for liking them so much, and exterminating the Jews. Hitler even had a Muslim SS division.

Allah also declared that only Jews and Christians can be tolerated, any other religions are satanistic, and the followers of these religions must either convert to Islam or be murdered. That is why the Hindu’s and Chinese (whom the Muslims call ‘the cow worshippers” and “the dog eaters” respectively.) really don’t like Muslims.

The situation in “Israel/Palestine” is simple, my dear Socratease. Two competing ideologies are fighting over the possession of a miniscule piece of territory. One because they believe that the only way that they can be safe is to have a country of their own where they are not the minority, and the other who think that (like Hitler), wherever a Muslim army sets its foot, that land is Muslim forever, and it is religious anathema to allow that land to revert to non Muslims. Their God would never forgive them.

All the UN resolutions and Balfour declarations are not going to change that. Your problem, is that you think that any human conflict can be settled amicably, once the real culprits are identified and shamed. Sorry mate, that is not going to happen here. It all gets down to the old poem.

The history of the world.
Reveals a simple plan.
He takes who has the power.
He holds, who can.

One of the propaganda lines used by Zionists and their supporters is that Israel is on the front line of an existential struggle between the West and Islam. That, of course, is the 'Big Lie', Israel is, in fact, fighting a colonial war against the Palestinians, rival ideologies are not the cause of the conflict.

In my opinion Islam is a nasty, primitive superstition, however the issue concerns human rights, not ideology. Christian Palestinians are also victims of Israel's oppression.

the root of religeon lies in scape goating
[killing innocents..for your own sin]

an eye for an eye
creed for greed...we have watched the per-versions..of rite right and ritual...away from the good living loving god..into the material shortermism..of human life times..human fears huh?man delusions...

the leg says...much
revealing little....must know the 'allah'..
he so much demeans...is the same g-d...he claims to be serving in killing gods good creations...

[its seems true..that those
who decry good god[of grace mercy]..
err on the side of insanity...[to kill anything is insane]

all living is sustained its living
by gods will alone...god dont want us dying...'for him'
he wants us to live and let live..[the new law..is..love neighbour...is the only sure way to return gods love]

that ye do to the least
you do to the most

"Christian Palestinians are also victims of Israel's oppression"

Since Israel left Bethlehem to the Palestinian Authority, the Christian population there reduced from 85% to 20%. They now live mostly in South America, half a million Christian Palestinians in Chile alone.

The PLO and other Islamic militant groups routinely entered Christian homes in Bethlehem and its suburbs by force, shooting into Israel from their rooftop, then running away, in order to get Israel shooting back at the Christians.

Now talking about human rights, where is the right of civilians to walk safely in the streets without being shot at random? or to board a bus, go to school or sit in a restaurant without being bombed?

I do not support the Israeli occupation, but the fact is that the Christian minority that remained in Bethlehem silently does (even while they are afraid to say it loud): they were much better off and safer under Israeli rule.

A portion of Israeli citizens are indeed bloody colonialists, but the majority are just fighting for their lives, to survive: they find their predicament to have to fight shoulder-to-shoulder with those colonialists at least as repulsive as you find it to support the Muslim side; and getting the spit from OLO users for what is beyond their control, is just hard on ordinary Israelis as the helpless Christian residents of Bethlehem got the bullets in response to the fire off their roofs.

lets agree to dissagree

yu's..quoted quote.."""Christian Palestinians..are also victims of Israel's oppression"...

he refutes
[ignoring that they as xtians...
were ALSO KICKED FROM THEIR HOMES
by israel..!]

saying...the propaganda..""Since Israel left Bethlehem to the Palestinian Authority,..the Christian population there reduced from 85% to 20%.""

so give some proof
[not just from some hard right xtian site run by the mossad]

does this 'reduced'..include those murderd by israel in war
or that died from poisening from phospher bombs..or clustedr bombs in olive fields?

""They now live mostly in South America,
half a million Christian Palestinians in Chile alone.""

details ol brother?

""The PLO""

set up and founded by the mossad

""and other Islamic militant groups"""

not named

REPORTEDLY..""..routinely entered Christian homes in Bethlehem and its suburbs by force, shooting into Israel from their rooftop, then running away,"""

wow...one reason
is only too easy to refute

so mossad sent in fools ith guns
so shoot..to get rid of xtians
by order of mossad telling plo...what to do

too clever ol mate

""in order to get Israel shooting back at the Christians.""

in order to reduce those making claim to their old homes
[apparently..if you leave..your deemed to loose your claim
[well worth the setting up of the plo]

too clever by half mossad

""Now talking about human rights,..where is the right of civilians to walk safely in the streets without being shot at random?""'

lol
the rights of israelies?
not generic human rights..to go where thy want?
live where you chose FOR ALL

your an appoligist..for those who rejected their own messiah
who hate goy....[xtians were forbidden..till paul said it aint so]
in the beginning xtain was jew

but non jew
they are subhuman..[little more than cattle]
goyishe kup

HOW SELECTIVE..the perspecive
""or to board a bus,go to school or sit in a restaurant without being bombed?""

yeah so too the palistinians
regardless of their faith

dont just defend the jew
its ALL EQUAL..or we all loose!

one 'what' under god?

I suspect that I am not the only one who questions this.

You make the claim to be a Christian. There is no evidence whatsoever of Christianity in your posts. Your hatreds are so consuming and irrational, fed greedily with delusional beliefs, that most people would look upon your claim as a 'Christian' as just a peg on which to hang a morbid and sick fixation.

Any person can make a claim to be a Christian, but a true Christian displays evidence of this. You do not.

Danielle,

"Christianity" is wielded by many to serve whatever purpose. There are those who attempt to live by Christian ethics and those who tend to use their beliefs as a mechanism to justify their actions....wasn't it George Dubya who claimed he invaded Iraq because God told him too?

I'm sure President Bush considered himself a true Christian.

fair enough danielle...i been baptised..to christ
i been raised a jew...and know jesus isnt god

i searched for god..in many 'holy texts'
jesus is my main teacher..but im heavilly infuenced by swedenberg
and wesly..and mary baker's texts as well...in short im in love it god
and thus by assosiation..his many messangers..

for me if its not about god
its a destraction into creed

ask yourself..if jesus was here now
would he explain the concept of a just war
or upset the money changers tables..challange deciete..or live it
[accept it..again and again and again

i claim the christ
but would her claim me..to do as i do
its not important...he like me was all about givingback to the father

there is..NO GOD
BUT THE TRUE GOOD GOD
of living loving grace mercy light and life
i put none before god...i try to love them..only because he does
[personally people tend to bring me...mostly pain..

but god gives me comfort's
no one else..can even..come close to

im not drinking gods blood
and those imbibing on the chists blood/flesh
well im certainly not one of 'them'..for me..its love god..by love unto other..

anyhow..each to their own
to some..i might cast stones...
but their size is litle more than a pebble

not to hurt..only to try to
make them think..or tell..of what i think..

just thoughts..voice with as much love as i can
when i can

Hey mac, the Muslims are dab hands at colonialism themselves.

All of North Africa was once Christian, but the Muzzies know how to do a bit of genocide and ethnic cleansing, so you won't find anyone but Muslims there today. They tried to take Malta and failed, although they did get into Rome for a while. They took Spain, and are still fuming about getting chucked out of there by the Christians.

They even made it into France, before the Frogs put he block on them at the Battle of Tours. In the East, they got to the gates of Vienna twice, before having to turn back because the Persians were giving them stick. Even during the heydays of Rome and Islam, Persia (Iran) was a pain in the ass for the world powers.

The Muzzies took Constantinople from the Greeks, and headed North into Russia. The reason for that, was to prevent Europe from maturing economically by cutting off Europe from trade with the east. That was why European nations began exploring the idea of getting round the Muslim blockade, by sailing south around Africa to India, or West to China.

So, what you are left with is, the Jews colonising a tiny area of land that jews have lived on continuously for 3,700 years, but which has been has been recolonised by Muslim colonisers.

Which coloniser do you prefer?

Could I remind you that Jews don't hijack western aeroplanes, but Muslims do. Jews don't put bombs in western aeroplanes, but Muslims do. Jews don't murder athletes at the Olympic Games, but Muslims do. Jews don't put bombs in Bali which kill Aussies, but Muslims do.

Secular Jews have done more for the scientific advancement of the whole human race than any other race. Name one advancement in physics, medicine or technology invented by a Muslim?

I support Israel, because I like the secular Jews a damn site more than I like Muslims.

Why you want to go into bat for people who hate your guts and who have always been a threat to the west, is beyond me.

If anyone cares to discuss the subject matter of my article I will be happy to respond - or can I assume that no one has any disagreement with the accuracy of its content and its conclusion if Gingrich becomes the next President?

Yuyutsu agreed with the accuracy of my article but the remainder of the responses so far have nothing to do with my article.

The creation of the "Palestinians" in 1964 in the PLO Charter created a nation that claimed ownership of what is now called Israel,the West Bank,Gaza and Jordan and excluded anyone other than Arabs as being part of that nation - Jews, non-Arab Christians and others who lived there in 1947 or subsequently.

This is what Gingrich was talking about when he used the term "invented Palestinian people"

There were no "Palestinians" in 1922 - but there were Palestinian Arabs whom the League of Nations included in the term "existing non-Jewish communities" whose civil and religious rights were not to be prejudiced

There were no "Palestinians" in 1947 - but there were Palestinian Arabs when the United Nations recommended the partition plan to create a "Jewish State" and an "Arab State"

There were no "Palestinians" between 1948-1964 - but there were Palestinian Arabs living in the West Bank who voted unanimously to unify the West Bank with Transjordan and to then live in that merged entity which was renamed Jordan and accept Jordanian citizenship.

Unless these facts are understood and accepted - trying to resolve the conflict in negotiations between Israel and the PLO will be a waste of time.

The PLO needs to revise its Charter and clearly indicate it no longer has any territorial designs on Israel or Jordan in its quest to obtain a second Arab State in former Palestine for the "Palestinians". If it doesn't then any further talks will be a waste of time.

Plagiarism can be enlightening.

Danielle wrote;

"You make the claim to be a Christian. There is no evidence whatsoever of Christianity in your posts. Your hatreds are so consuming and irrational, fed greedily with delusional beliefs, that most people would look upon your claim as a 'Christian' as just a peg on which to hang a morbid and sick fixation. "

"Any person can make a claim to be a Christian, but a true Christian displays evidence of this. You do not."

My turn.

'Israel makes the claim to be a Western democracy. There is no evidence whatsoever of Western democracy in their continued brutal occupation. Its hatreds are so consuming and irrational, fed greedily with delusional beliefs, that most people would look upon their claim as a 'Western democracy' as just a peg on which to hang a morbid and sick fixation.'

'Any nation can make a claim to be a Western democracy, but a true democracy displays evidence of this. They do not.'

Why does that work so well? I sincerely wish it didn't.

Dear David,

I directly addressed your article and in particular the standing of Newt Gingrich. As the person to whom you have turned to to validate your position, his credibility or otherwise is certainly on topic.

I would be keen to hear what you think of the man.

Dear Danielle,

Thank you for your sane comments. To date, all of the other posts have been a litany of anger and hatred against Jews, Israel, Arabs and Islam.
We need to be reminded that we are living in in 2011, and not in 1922, 1947, 1948 or 1964. Seven million Israelis are not going to disappear, and nor are four million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.Nobody has the right to de-legitimise their identities, whether they wish to be known as Israelis or Palestinians.
It is interesting how these populations have to carry the blame for their leaders, governments and politics, perhaps more than in other areas in the world.None of these posts offer anything of a constructive nature to further the objective of reconciliation in this disturbed region.

David Singer,

Of course most comments here might appear OT, however you're not really writing stand alone articles on different subjects, are you? Your latest effort is just another in a very long series of Zionist propaganda.

So I'm sure you'll understand if, I and others, don't bother to distinguish one from another.

If "Jordan is Palestine", then "New York, Melbourne and London are all Israel".

Yuyutsu,

Yes, I've given much the same wiki-history lesson to ignorant Moslems.

Tp csteele

Shooting the messenger and ignoring the message is really a waste of time.

I could give you an equally demeaning resume on Abbas,Arafat and Haniyeh - but it proves nothing. What counts is what comes out of their mouths. This needs to be analysed and interpreted.

That is what I have tried to do.

If you don't agree - then tell me what you think his statement means and where you differ from my view.

Dear Benbec,

You are right, a more constructive response is in order. Engaging with David Singer's articles has served to kick that habit from me a little more than I would care to admit.

One of the saving graces of Israel is its legal system. It often holds against the corruption and sins of the Israeli government and provides some hope for the future. What concerns me most is whether the changing demographics placing more power in the hands of the ultra religious will end up subsuming it.

The High Court's outlawing of the use of human shields in spite of vigorous protests by the military was heartening. So too was the outlawing in 1999 of torture in most circumstances.

Only a few months ago the High Court ruled that an Arab Israeli couple were able to build on a plot of public land within a Jewish neighbourhood. It had taken numerous appeals and six years of fighting to force a reversal of the apartheid stance of the officials concerned.

The town's committee had determined Ahmed Zabeidat "lacked interpersonal sophistication and has difficulty integrating naturally into society," and his wife, Fatina too individualistic.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-s-high-court-orders-jewish-galilee-town-to-accept-arab-couple-1.384296

Even the Military justice system has kicked the traces. Just last month, in an unheard of act, a military court partially acquitted a Palestinian due to what it recognised as a forced confession. However the chances of this becoming more common is remote under a system where of the 9,500 files dealt with in 2010 only 82 end in trials as virtually all cases instead end in plea bargains. Hats off to Lt. Col. Zvi Lekach.

http://www.btselem.org/torture/20111213_hamidah_verdict

Kudos too to the above Israeli Human Rights organisation. They are tireless and inspiring and answer the need for some of us to see a living example of the strong advocacy for justice that has helped define the Jewish contribution to the world.

It is such a pity that the Israeli government does not appear to respect and cherish it as it should.

Dear David,

You were the one claiming “Republican front runner for next President of the United States - Newt Gingrich - has done himself and his campaign great credit in branding the Palestinians as an invented nation.”.

Firstly he is no longer the front runner and secondly there is nothing creditable about him.

If you don't want your messenger shot don't send a goose.

Further “Gingrich's message to the PLO is clear “, it is not “return to the negotiating table and hammer out a deal with Israel” it is go and raise enough money to buy your own politician.

That you have resorted to extolling the opinion of such a corrupt and discredited politician to support your position speaks volumes about its merits.

I have explained earlier that I am loathed to rehash old arguments as to why you are so wrong on this issue, but I tell you what. If you can come up with a notable figure, one that is recognised as having at least a measure of integrity, who holds the same position as yourself and Newt, I will do as you request. Otherwise please enjoy each other's company.

http://www.btselem.org

The late Vaclav Havel.

#Mac

Jordan is Palestine according to article 2 of the PLO Covenant:

"Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit."

The Mandate covered what is today called Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.

Jordan's late Kings - Abdullah and Hussein - and the PLO's late leader Yasser Arafat also agreed - as did a lot of other Arab leaders.

What particular expertise do you possess to pooh pooh what the PLO Charter expressly says?

#csteele

Gingrich was saying nothing more than PLO spokesman Zuhair Mohsen who told the Dutch newspaper Trouw way back in 1977:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Got any dirt to drop on Mohsen or those who passed a resolution at the 8th PNC meeting in 1971 that said the same thing?

Failing to accept 95% of its demands seems to me to be suicidal for the PLO. It is going to miss the train once again - as has happened so often to the Palestinian Arabs during the last 90 years.

Gingrich has warned the PLO not to expect American support in holding out for 100% of its current demands if Gingrich becomes President. He has clearly signalled in his statement that his policy will be very different to Obama's.

Who are you suggesting raised enough money to buy Obama's policy?

David Singer,

Why do you as an Australian lawyer continue to propagandise on behalf of a foreign government which is undertaking corrupted Judicial practises, which holds acknowledged discriminatory policy and which supports aparteid laws?

That's the broader question you need to address.

Imajulianutter,

There are many wrong things in Israeli policy and I find it painful, but in order to be credible you should use accurate and specific arguments rather than a superlative of hate such as "Apartheid". The wrongs of the government of Israel, while numerous, and while you have the right to claim that they are equivalent in severity, do not amount to Apartheid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1dvwgjDAT8

David Singer,

"What particular expertise do you possess to pooh pooh what the PLO Charter expressly says?"

That does seem a rather disingenuous statement.

The PLO charter and the agreement of various self-appointed and Western appointed 'representatives' in the past, don't necessarily indicate the wishes of the majority of the Palestinians.

As to what the Palestinian people would settle for, if they were ever consulted in a democratic referendum, might be surprising. However that wouldn't suit either Israel, its US patron or the present cabal of Islamists in control of what's left of the Palestinans' patrimony, would it?

Hamas must be one of God's gifts to the Zionist cause.

Dear David, having just finished reading both of books by Robert Fisk on the Mid East I find you little short of insulting in you article.
You are a propagandist for the extreme one may say semi fascist Israeli Govt,as to whether you are part of the group put together by the Israeli Govt to prop up the crimes of Israeli Govt I will leave to other to work out.
But I,m afraid out of Fisk and you I know who I believe,and its not you, and your increasingly tedious Israeli Govt propaganda, do the Department pay you by the word or amount of lies and BS you run on here and other sites

Hey David, if you are a lawyer, I can understand why you are using a legalistic approach to your premises. But all the legal arguments mean nothing compared to one simple fact, Israel belongs to the Jews because they are on it, and they have a first rate army which is prepared to defend their territory to the death.

I prefer a more historical and and psychological approach.

Know your enemies, David, and in a hundred battles......etc, etc.

Western psuedo intellectuals think that racism is the eighth deadly sin. Destroy racism and the Age of Aquarius will dawn. The reason why the anti racist brahmin caste hate the Jews is for two reasons. The primary one being, that since the Jews have been the subject of the most appalling racism by just about every other people on planet Earth, they should be the least racist people around, and the natural allies of the psuedo intellectual anti racists.

But the Jews are just as racist as everybody else, and they are smart enough to figure out that multiculturalism is a recipe for social self suicide. Their survival as a people depends upon them doing to their minorites what everybody else hase been doing to them for the last 3,700 years.

Retuning the complement, you might say.

But the chardonnay sucking socialists feel betrayed.

That is why the brahmins on this site attack the Jews continuously while studiously ignoring the fact that the Arabs could teach Hitler a thing or two about genocide and ethnic cleansing. By some application of doublethink, they even believe that the Arabs are "victims", instead of figuring out that the Arabs are copping what they have been so enthusiastically dishing out to every other minority race and religion for the last 1,300 years.

The second reason why they hate the Joos, is because of their "oppressor/ victim" Answer to Everything ideology. Israel was once supported by people like iamjullianutter and Csteel because Israel was two million people surrounded by 500 million Arabs loudly demanding their extermination. But the Israelis kept winning, and winners are always "oppressors."

And so rants OLO's resident racist misogynist, Lego.

Hey racist I ask again.

I base my morality on Christs Sermon on the Mount.

What do you base yours on? The Torah?

Your support is really emerging from the bottom of the barrel now David.

Are you proud of your efforts

Dear David Singer,

You wrote "Who are you suggesting raised enough money to buy Obama's policy?"

Pretty well the same people who bought Newt's. To have the Israeli prime minister show such disrespect to Obama during his visit to the White House and Capitol Hill, plus the announcement of fresh settlements when Biden visited Israel, all without consequences, shows just how much Obama is beholden to that particular interest group.

The candidate you should be most worried about is the one least likely to be bought, Ron Paul.

His determinedly isolationist policy will certainly serve to lessen US support for odious regimes including Israel's.

One of his campaign's latest ad which I found quite impressive was this one;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKfuS6gfxPY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

One of its qualities is an expression of empathy for occupied peoples. All this coming from a Republican candidate.

Empathy is ultimately your greatest threat Mr Singer. You have been determined to quell it by delegitimizing the Palestinian people through not mentioning their name, questioning their existence, claiming they are Jordanians etc. However this tactic is fast losing its currency. 

I have no doubt Ron Paul must really be putting the wind up you.

Dear Lego,

No sane person who is not an Islamic fundamentalist would agree to live as a second-class citizen in an Islamic state. No one in their right mind would relinquish control of their homes to others who not only claim that will kill them (or in the least send them away as refugees), but in fact try to do it daily and teach their children the same.

This is why Israel must continue to fight back desperately in any way it can, but that has nothing to do with Judaism or racism, that is just common sense. The Jewish/racist agenda only serves to obscure the obvious and does a great disservice to the people of Israel.

"Israel belongs to the Jews because they are on it, and they have a first rate army which is prepared to defend their territory to the death."

- No. Israel belongs to the ISRAELIS, for that exact reason and logic, not to the Jews. If most Israelis happen to be Jews, that's their private issue.

Your goal of preserving the Jewish people as such is not worth one finger of my family in Israel. They fight for their lives, not for your national-social dreams.

Brahmins are not "Western pseudo intellectuals": they were the preceptors, clergy and spiritual elite of India for thousands of years, way before Judaism was conceived. They deserve respect, not mockery.

#To mac

You may have noticed I base my analysis on statements people make - not speculation.

The PLO claims to be the sole spokesman for the Palestinian Arabs (although one might dispute that where Hamas is concerned). They are both two sides of the same coin seeking Israel's destruction.

Would be nice to hear what the Palestinian Arab on the street thinks. Guess he is too scared to voice an opinion. When you come across one who does - I will pleased to hear his opinion.

#To Lego

I do take the legalistic approach because in the end this is the last resort for settling disputes. It does not always please everyone but it is the best we have for ending deadlock.

#To csteele

I will treat whatever Ron Paul says on its merits - not who he happens to be.

Remember - concentrate on the message - not who just happens to deliver it.

Obviously if it is said by the President it can carry more weight than if uttered by a Presidential candidate.

You still can't comprehend that people like Zuhair Mohsen and the 8th PNC Assembly have exposed the myth of the "Palestinians" long before Newt Gingrich.

It would pay to listen to what the Arabs and Israelis actually say. That is what I do. Try it sometime. It beats uttering generalities and unsubstantiated comments that mean nothing.

Dear David Singer,

You said; "Obviously if it is said by the President it can carry more weight than if uttered by a Presidential candidate."

Indeed.

I give more weight to the following from President Jimmy Carter than anything that comes from the mouth of Newt Gingrich.

"When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa."

As to your quote from Zuhair Mohsen whom you paint quite disingenuously as a spokesperson for the PLO rather he was part of a PanArab faction and certainly playing to a Syrian Baathist drumbeat.

From Wikipedia; "Mohsen essentially followed the line of as-Sa'iqa's Syrian-Baathist ideology (Mohsen himself being as-Sa'iqa's leader under the control of the Ba'athist government of Syria under Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad), which interpreted the Palestinian question through a perspective of pan-Arab nationalism - despite the fact that in some respects this contravened the PLO charter, which affirms the existence of a Palestinian people with national rights, corresponding with this it is noted that hostility existed between the main Fatah faction of the PLO under Yasser Arafat and the Syrian Ba'ath party of Hafez al-Assad (which in turn supported Palestinians like Zuheir Mohsen and the Ba'athist as-Sa'iqa faction of the PLO) on this issue. Mohsen himself was in fact both a leader of the Syrian Ba'ath party controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the PLO and a Palestinian member of the Syrian Ba'ath party's own National Command in the present day nation of Syria itself."

"The journalist Robert Fisk was to claim that as-Sa'iqa, under Mohsen, was to employ its energies "almost exclusively against their brother Palestinians", stating that in June 1976 he saw "the PLO in open combat within West Beirut against Saiqa, who had attacked Arafat's forces on orders from Damascus."

You can be quite shameless can't you. First Gingrich then this man. Integrity, a simple concept.

Singers biggest problem is he would not know the truth if he fell over it on a dark night,or broad daylight,he sings from his bosses play sheet,he just a propagandist and should be dismissed as such and ignored.

How Israel
helped Islamist movements..to flourish across the Middle East
http://www.redress.cc/palestine/uavnery20111231

Uri Avnery charts Israel's role in the growth of Islamist movements in the Middle East - Hamas in Palestine, Hizbollah in Lebanon, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and the Shi'i theocracy in Iran.

thats why stuff like this cant work
http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2011/12/palestinians-must-get-their-act-together-in-2012/

happy new year
but what really happend in them past years?

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2011/12/an-historic-partnership-with-the-devil-an-analysis-by-dr-lawrence-davidson-%E3%80%80/

http://12160.info/video/israel-warmongering-news-analysis-12-28-2011?xg_source=activity

Behind a mysterious December 22 Associated Press story about “finding of fact” by a District judge in Manhattan Friday that Iran assisted al Qaeda in the planning of the 9/11 attacks is a tapestry of recycled fabrications and distortions of fact from a bizarre cast of characters.

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2011/12/crackpot-anti-islam-activists-serial-fabricators-and-the-tale-of-iran-and-911/

Zionists Funded Both Hitler & Churchill
By: poorrichard
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/zionists-funded-both-hitler-churchill.html

When Winston Churchill was visiting Germany, in 1932, Putzi Hanfstaengl tried to arrange a meeting with Hitler.
Hitler apparently declined.

It wouldn't do for two Zionist political actors --future "antagonists" --to be seen rehearsing together
before the show began.

Both Hitler and Churchill were pawns of the Zionist bankers. According to historian Thomas J. O'Keefe, Churchill said in his Memoirs that ex-German Chancellor (1930-1932) Heinrich Brüning revealed the identities of Hitler's backers in a 1937 letter:

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/12/30/mossad-chief-iranian-nuclear-weapon-wouldnt-be-existential-threat/

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/imperial-overdrive-red-alert-over-iran.html

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/28/an-execrable-ancestor/

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/12/27/3090919/jewish-conservatives-push-back-against-paul-surge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XKCc5SYCisQ

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/how-globalists-have-destroyed-free.html

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/12/is-fabric-of-industrialized-society.html

http://dailybail.com/home/tale-of-the-tarp-two-years-later-how-the-elite-media-perpetu.html

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17123

To David Singer.

The legal profession is not, never has been, nor ever will be, the final arbiter in settling disputes. Or for winning arguments in the court of public opinion.

The trick is, that when the law is against you, you argue morality. When morality is against you, you argue the law.

I think that morality is the better option for formulating arguments, because it is so amorphous. Despite all of the attempts of western leftists to carve the principles of morality into stone, there can never be moral absolutes

'... nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated.

The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim. '

David Singer while cheering for Newt and his divergence from the historical US political tenets would encourage us to detest the US politician who uttered those words.

Wouldn't you David?

Who was the author?

George Washington ... shame David shame. You defile the memory of real Western Liberal Democrates whenever you write in support of the racist, totalitarian, land stealing, and totally unjust regime that pretends democracy in Israel.

Hi Yuyutsu.

You seem to have a hang up about Israeli racism, because your seem to have been conditioned to think that racism is utterly wrong, and Israelis would never stoop to that. That is not so. I think that the desire to live amongst ones own people, people who share your own values, attitudes and behaviour, is a cultural universal. It is also racist. But I don’t see anything wrong with it. So to, loyalty to one’s own race and culture could also be construed as racist, but what race, ethnicity or religion is not guilty of that?

The Israelis are racist, just like everyone else. To claim that they are different, just happens to be racist . The principles of racism are rooted in Socialist social theory, which claims that everybody is equal. To claim that one race is more or less racist than another is therefore racism. The Jews are even racist among themselves. The hostility between the secular Jews and the Orthodox Jews is open knowledge; with one side calling the other “Goyum!” and the other sneering back “Frankum!” That sure sounds like racism to me.

The fact the that the Israeli government discriminates against non Jews is self evident. For you to claim different, is to stand in front of an audience and claim that black is white.

But if you claim that Jews are not racist, then that is exactly the position that you must be arguing from. Such a position is insupportable.

You are much better rethinking your attitude to racism and realizing that everybody does it. How many times have you read “anti racists” sneering about the Israelis, the Americans, One Nation supporters, the religious right, or any other group which they despise.? The fact is, that every person on planet earth identifies groups of people which they despise, because those despised groups have attitudes, values and beliefs, which others may consider to be deviant and wrong. And those deviant groups can often be identified by their physical features, their culture, their religion, or even the way they dress.

Dear Lego,

You can be as racist as you like - I am not a socialist and in normal circumstances that would be none of my business.

But in this case it is, because my family lives in Israel.
You, and Jews in general, can be racist until such point where it puts my family at risk.
Once you cross that red line, then you (and the Jews) become my enemy.

If my family in Israel needs to fight and risk their lives to survive, or risk bombs and missiles day and night due to villains from across the border, then it's just an unavoidable part of life. That's bad enough, but if they need to suffer the same because of your Jewish ideology (such as requiring isolation in order to preserve your culture), then it is unacceptable. The preservation of the Jewish people as such is not worth risking the loss of even one finger by a member of my family: want to risk lives - risk your own, risk your family's, but don't risk mine!

Besides the wars and terrorism, my family does not deserve these gutterful toxic remarks as expressed here and elsewhere by OLO users. They have done nothing to deserve it other than being born where they were. If you believe in those actions of which Israel is accused, then own to it and receive the smear in your own face, not my family's.

BTW, I liked your reply to David:

"The legal profession is not, never has been, nor ever will be, the final arbiter in settling disputes. Or for winning arguments in the court of public opinion."

- Doesn't Israel have enough trouble already receiving such loads of contempt due to the American and Jewish "support", without which very few would notice, care or make a big deal of what it does? Now add to it the "support" of the legal profession (if any body is hated more than the USA and the Jews, it is lawyers!) and what a stew Israel is getting: with such friends, who needs enemies?

Dear Yuyutsu

I'm not Jewish, and I am just as racist as everybody else on planet Earth.

Human beings are tribal and territorial. It is part of the human condition to form self protecting groups, define a territory, and defend that territory from all comers. Any wandering extraterrestrial who examined Earthlings might wonder why a species lacking killing teeth, claws, horns, antlers, spines or armour ever survived to become the top of the food chain. We did it, because we form self protecting groups and fight as together against any threat, either two legged or four legged. The only way that you can prevent racism is to stop being human.

I have read many of your posts and you strike me as an insightful person who writes very well. But you have an unrealistic concept of racism as being totally bad, and the cause of every problem in the world. That is hardly surprising, because I think that today’s education system has conditioned you to think that way, and it has successfully put a mental boundary on your thinking.

The Secular Israelis are smart and disciplined, although they are too tolerant of the Orthodox Jews, who to my mind are religious nut cases and parasites into the bargain, who will eventually cause the collapse of Israel. Both groups are mutually hostile and call each other nasty names, and that is racism. Unless the Secular Israelis get more “racist” and “oppress” the Orthodox Israelis, tell them to get a job, pick up a rifle when needed, and start thinking straight, then your family in Israel is doomed.

Any minority group who’s values, attitudes and behaviours become too much of a threat to the survival of the entire group is in danger of total social exclusion, expulsion, repression, even extermination. When you are in the lifeboat you all pull on the oars together or you get tossed overboard. It has been a long time since western people with our credit cards, social security systems and obesity problems have thought that way. But only fat and contented people can afford to be tolerant.

Lego,

Your racist rant totally contradicts a few thousand years of western philosophical thought, writing and development. You need to read more broadly but I doubt you'd have the comprehension ability.

You are an amateur in analysis of human behaviour. You deal in generalities and your conclusions are simply wrong for our western liberal democratic times.

David Singer

Are you happy that your diatribes against Palestinians has produced (flushed) this sort of irrational follower and comrade.

That is where Hitler started. We western liberal democrat's fought a war against those attitudes.

You should be revolted and ashamed! Why aren't you?

Hi ImaJuliannutter

At least I can submit a 350 word reasoned argument which can cross connect concepts, instead of like you, submitting posts which consist of a few insults and sneery one liners. Is that the best you can do? Your pathetic posts are indicative of a person who's worldview has been totally inculcated into their unquestioning minds, instead of being the result of personel conviction resulting from the considered analysis of competing ideas.

Your childish attitude reinforces my presumption that people with your leftist convictions are not very intelligent at all. You grasp at liberal attitudes like a drowning man because you think that they are the attitudes of intelligent people, and you have a compulsive need to think that you are just that. But your intellect is unable to sort out the disjointed slogans that have been conditioned into your head that make up your attitudes, into anything resembling a cohesive argument.

But if you are intelligent, then you had better start thinking intelligently. Instead of accepting everything the ABC, the Sydney Morning Heraldd, Noam Chomsky, or The Green Left Weekly tells you is more infallable than the proclomations of the Pope, start reading a few books by people who's views you think are wrong.

Because if you don't I am going to run rings around you, boy. I love reading my ideological opponents books. They tend to think that they are preaching to the converted, so they can get very indiscreet. One I read recently was "The War on Children" by an American anti racist like you. In it, he bragged about how he and the NAACP had sucessfully lobbied Congress to deny government funds for any scientist researching the effects of DNA on Human behaviour.

Any impartial and intelligent person would agree that any ideology that needs to shut up the scientists is intellectually bankrupt.

Lego

Don't get so high and mighty mate, you are playing the man, not the ball, which isn't supposed to be what OLO is all about. There is often a great deal of thought behing one liners, so don't dismiss them so lightly. A 300 word essay can be just full of BS and mean nothing.

David

Dear Lego,

While almost everyone is racist to some extent, the degree varies.

I love your conclusion: "The only way that you can prevent racism is to stop being human" - this is indeed what we should strive for!
I am acquainted with the human condition, but it is our duty to rise above it as best we can, and as we do so despite the weight of our hosting human, we can acquire new habits that eventually turn into second-nature. The desire to survive no doubt exists, but it is a weakness, not a virtue.

Racism is NOT the cause of every problem in the world. Racism is but a symptom: the malady is our identification with our bodies along with the instincts that come with it. Besides racism, this can take the form of prejudice in favour of one's own body; one's family; one's sports-team; one's town; one's gender; or the human race in general; etc.

I do not condemn racism because I do accept that different people are at different stages in their spiritual evolution. We come here to learn, so sooner or later we need to experience racism (on both the aggressor and the receiving sides) before we can finally discard it and leave it behind. You are a warrior, so take your time and learn the lesson well.

I am a bit ancient for "today’s education system" to condition me: at the time, the schools I attended in fact encouraged racism, including by chance a couple of years in South-Africa under Apartheid. My views have absolutely nothing to do with humanistic/socialistic/western philosophy, but are based on eastern spiritual principles.

Personally, I'm rather low on racism and species-ism, but I do care about and am loyal to my family. When the interests of a race/nation (such as the Jews) conflicts with the essential interests of my family, I side with my family.

Orthodox Jews are not one group. The ultra-orthodox can be a nuisance and economic burden, but are not threatening my family like the settlers who are still orthodox, but fully active in state-affairs.

Dear Imajulianutter,

This is a bit off topic, but I couldn't avoid commenting about some expressions that you used in your reply to Lego:

"Your racist rant totally contradicts a few thousand years of western philosophical thought, writing and development."

- Does this include scenes from the bible, the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the 100-year war between France and England, the slavery of Negroes, Spanish slaughter of American Indians, South-African Apartheid, Antisemitism, English attitude towards Indian Kafirs, and of course towards our own Aboriginals? You can safely remove two zeroes.

"our western liberal democratic times"

- Perhaps a wishful thinking: most of the planet today is not western, not liberal and not democratic. Even in Australia, liberalism is very partial and democracy is but a ritualistic semblance (allowing you to choose every 3 years between Tweedledum and Tweedledee).

Hi Yuyutsu

I am not religious in any way, and I am hardly qualified to talk philosophy. But I do know a thing or two about psychology and group psychology, and I would advise you against adopting any ideology, regardless of whether it is religious or political, which depends upon its implementation on the belief that human beings can stop being human.

It was Freud who discovered that some of his patients exhibited bizarre behaviour because they were trying to repress their natural instincts to commit behaviour which was socially proscribed (often homosexuality) which even the patients themselves convinced was wrong behaviour. Freud coined the word “neurosis” to describe the bizarre behaviour resulting from repressing natural feelings.

Your own stated intention to put your family first above even your country is perfectly natural, and can be considered a form of racism. The definition of racism has expanded by the demand of the anti racists themselves to mean almost any group at all. Human Rights organizations are now formulating policies where racism and discrimination encompasses not just races, but ethnicities, nationalities, religions, and even non belief in any belief system.

However, I suppose we are getting off topic.

The war between Israel and the Arabs is a race war, it is also a religious war. Two competing tribes who both have reasonable grounds for thinking that this tiny bit of real estate is their particular tribal land, are fighting each other for the territory, and may the best tribe win. All of the UN declarations, legal mumbo jumbo, or political declarations will not change that.

I hope it is the Israelis, because I respect the Israelis a lot more than the Arabs. The Arabs are to my mind are backward, barbarous, economically inept, totally intolerant, and cruel. And Arabs have basically declared war on the west with their support of terrorism, or their support for Muslim immigrant colonization of European lands with the intention of making us all eventually bow to Allah.

Dear LEGO,

Well I will admit you do seem very out and proud about your racism. In the past I have found most racists to be quite cowardly about their views, prepared to shout slurs from the outer but never say it to a footballer's face, or to spray a slogan on a wall at night, or to hurl abuse out a car window.

You may well be of a different breed. 

I have always used my real name on OLO since I felt I needed to take responsibility and ownership of my views. 

While I understand why some here choose not to I feel someone with your stridency probably needs to step out from the protection of the 'coward's crib' else be justly labelled.

What is your real name LEGO? Furnish that and I for one will be more than happy to rationally address the substance of your argument.

Hi csteel

So that you can pass my name on to the Inquisitors in Anti Discrimination Board? And they can show me the instruments of torture so that they can either burn me at the stake or shut me up? You must be kidding csteel.

The ultimate test of intellect is to tell the truth, though the heavens may fall. Here in Australia, it is illegal to tell the truth or even debate what is the truth.

Debating a position on racism is contrary to the holy writ of multicultulism, which demands that advocating a conrary view and other heretical thoughts be absolutely stamped out.

Once upon a time, real intellectuals would never accept such a position. But today, people like yourself just advocate the party line and never question the holy writ.

Communist parties around the world once claimed that the concept of class was an illusion, and that everybody was exactly the same. Do you accept that yourself? I advocate that an anti racist ideology which states that people who's physical and mental attributes evolved to conform to wildly different environments must have identical physical and mental talents to be self evident balderdash.

I was once an anti racist like yourself. But since the only excuse which the anti racists could submit to explain why some ethnicities and cultures are always a problem was "blame the white guy." That is a racist argument. You can't train me to identify racism and then not see it in the arguments of the so called "anti racists."

The lives of great men remind us
Not to dip our pens in ink
Lest the ADB finds us
debating in the clink.

Dear Lego,

Human beings cannot stop being human beings, but we can, because fortunately we are not human beings, never were. Being human is a temporary state: we wear a human body for 70-100 years or so, not before and not after, so exaggerating its significance is unhealthy. The irony is, that we will all stop being human beings anyway - if we don't do it consciously earlier, then once we die.

I am not prescribing the repression of instincts, but to rise above them and transcend them. I am also not suggesting that this can be done overnight - it is a long and difficult road, so we take one little step at a time. Meanwhile, I am happy to live with the tension, with the cognitive dissonance, that my ideals and my actual way of life do not match, rather than tricking myself to believe that "Since I do it, it must be right".

Yes, I have my version of racism. One day I will be over it, by God's grace.

I have argued not once on these pages that both "Israel" and "the Arabs" are not a cohesive single entity, hence as there are more than two, there cannot be a war between the two. There are those tribalist extremists on both sides with a vested interest to portray the situation in this way (as a tribal war for territory), which they do in order to incite their moderates. Unfortunately, you seem to believe them too - and so does the legal mumbo jumbo! No solution can be found so long as the perceived "problem" is not the problem.

I wouldn't care less about territory or which 'tribe' will win, except that my family are there and if the Arabs win, they would all be killed.

I think that the following article from today's paper, will probably interest you: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-s-suicidal-left-1.405002

Dear LEGO,

*Sigh*

Thought not.

That was a hell of a lot of words just to say no.

What was particularly egregious was your saying "The ultimate test of intellect is to tell the truth, though the heavens may fall." while being so intent on keeping yourself totally out of harm's way, harm that is of course far more imagined than real.

You have certainly failed your own test.

My mistake, you appear to be little different from your ilk.

Pity.

Yeah, up yours too, csteel. I think that you will find that demanding someone's identity on this forum is against forum rules. The last time it happened to me, it was done by a very persistent and offensive contributor, so the administrator popped up into the discussion and gave the offending party a rap on the knuckles.

Advocating the idea that races are not equal just happens to be illegal in some states of Australia. But I think that the repression of ideas, especially one which is correct, is outrageous, in what is supposed to be a free country. Especially since I think that the holy writ of racial equality will cause significant damage to the social cohesion and community peace of my country. So, I am sticking my neck right out here, and hoping that the sundry Inquisitorial star chambers now enforcing the new social dogma would not dare to apprehend me, as persecuting members of a debate/opinion site may even be going too far for them.

But you can never be too careful. Religious fanatics with absolutist mindsets, who can not even perceive shades of grey, and who have now embraced racial equality as their new absolute truth, can get very annoyed by anyone who dares to claim that the holy scriptures are wanting. Look what happened to Henry Bolt

Dear LEGO,

Nothing was demanded of you my friend, instead you were invited to step away from the ubiquitous label 'cowardly racist'.

As much as I abhor the stance taken by the author of this article David Singer does have my respect for putting his name to it.

As I said earlier I was interested in species identification. The last few posts were just confirmation.

One only has to reflect on those, who for the most part are the Arabs you appear to have such little regard for, in Tahrir Square putting their bodies in very real harms way from bullets, beatings, and torture to see just how hollow your words are.

'Sticking your neck out'?

Right.

Vanities of vanities.

http://www.activistpost.com/2012/01/game-over-tyranny-revealed.html

http://mycatbirdseat.com/2012/01/linking-911-truth-to-the-israel-palestine-conflict/

http://lonestarwatchdog.blogspot.com/2012/01/tyrants-beware2012-couold-be-year-of.html

""Some of the biggest men in the United States,""[the world]..
...""in the field of commerce and manufacturing,""'security finance law media

""are afraid of somebody,..are afraid of something.""

some all pervasive evasive select elect group

that..""They know that there is a power somewhere,..so organized,
so subtle,..so watchful,..so interlocked,..so pervasive,""

so one eyed..so filled with ego
anger fear and delusion

""that they [know..they]..had better not speak
above their breath..when they speak in condemnation of it." -- Woodrow Wilson""

well times change
http://www.jewwatch.com/

if they plan us to die anyhow
there is nothing to their threats..
their fears..their hates,.,they spin

here as son speaks out
against those against his father
pointing out the one thing they all got in conman[the same fears delusions of grandeur][offerings of service to the multihydra headed beast]

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17137

plan b
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/01/ron-paul-911-conspiracy-theories_n_1178492.html

ode to the mouthpieces
http://redressnewsblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/israel-mouthpiece-thanks-jewish-anti.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2QMQi-m63E

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2004/tle275-20040613-04.html
http://www.libertarianrepublican.net/2011/12/lr-editor-quoted-in-philadelphia-weekly.html

the means
http://www.redress.cc/americas/ldavidson20120102

due dilligence
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Sticks and stones, csteel. Come back when you are ready to debate.

Lego and Yutusu,

My reading includes from the following:
The New Testament, Homer, Herodutus, Thucydides, Plato, Diogenes, Sophocles, Plutarch, Epictetus, Hippocrates, Lucretius, Tacitus, Cicero, Horace , Virgil, Marcus Aurelius, Confucius, Sun Tzu Omar Khayyam, Flavert, Montaigne, Descartes, Pascal, Arouet, Rousseau, de Balzac,Kant, Goethe, Nietzsche, Freud, Kafka, Dante, Cevantes, Mises, Von Hayek, Tolstoy, Cherkov, Lementov, Nilolai Leskov, Gorky, Turgenov, Doestovesky, Gogol, Puskin, St Agustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Machiavelli, Nicomachus, Aristotle, Archimedes, Copernicus, Bacon, Galileo, Kepler, Leibniz, Newton, Fourier, Faraday, Darwin, Eddison, Russell, Einstein, Aesops, Marx and Engels, Hitler, Lenin, Grimms, The Old Testament, Andersen, Dickens, Enid Blyton, Chaucer, Thomas More, Shakespeare, Milton, Hobbes, Locke, Defoe, Swift, Johnson, Smith, Shaw, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Marlow, Austin, Byron, Mill, Thackeray, Eliot, Joyce, American Historical Documents, Franklin, Washington, Lincoln, Emerson, Thoreau, Melville, Twain, Adams,Bunyan, Holmes, Walton, ... Among many many others.

I guess neither of you can appreciate the knowledge those authors passed on. In fact from the views expressed in your posts neither of you would have an iota of a grasp of the topic of western philosophy, thought or writing let alone it's development.

Lego you're simply wrong in your beliefs and estimation I'm leftist. I'm not; I'm a western liberal democrat... a well read one. I condemn your mysogist and racist attitudes, You need to change them they lead to evil.

Yutusu your jaundiced view of westernism merely reveals you need to read much more widely so as to appreciate the basis of liberalism and of western values ... which are not at all the same as political opinion.

Every time you blokes use anything that is manufactured or seek medical help or follow an education opportunity just appreciate most things stem from the great thinkers and inventors of the great western liberal democratic tradition.

Yutusu have you ever heard of, among others, William Wilberforce and Abraham Lincoln?
They've all acted in the western tradition ... or maybe in the tradition of Christ's New Testament, which helped forge it. Forget your Hebrew bible, Christ superseded it.

And David you haven't responded to my questions.

Dear Imajulianutter,

You are bursting into an open door - I do not make it a secret that I am not keen on Western philosophy. My general impression of it is that it emphasizes society: what should have been but a by-product of life has become the main focus.

I am well aware that with this focus on society and how to "forward" it, the West became very successful and rich materially and even intellectually, to the point of dominating the world. Yet it is spiritually poor.

Life is about one's relationship with God. This is what interests me, not how to get more and more people to get along together with each other. If we get along well with God, we will automatically also get along well with each other (not that it is of any comparable importance).

The need for liberalism would not arise had our natural liberties not been snatched by society in the first place. The intelligent are proud of their ability to fix things - the wise don't break them in the first place.

"Every time you blokes use anything that is manufactured or seek medical help"

- With due respect, that's a call to fear. The western culture is a culture of fear.

What Jesus said is: "“'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind'. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself'".

Healing is from God, or even better - why get sick in the first place? or if we do get sick, why experience it as suffering?
If you base your life on the love of God, what is there to be afraid of?

Yutusu,

You are in denial. I fail to see where I am bursting through anything.

You were terribly unbalanced in your assessment of westernism. You expressed that quite clearly.

I simply showed you there is another overwhelming evidenced view that far outweighs your narrow focus and negativity.

Westerners experienced an enlightening and divided the state from God. The other religions and societies haven't done that and their sole adherence to a belief in God rather than a belief in themselves as well as in a God has resulted in the dysfunctional religion based societies that today seem to be the cause of wars and other evil.

'Every time you blokes use anything that is manufactured or seek medical help or follow an education opportunity just appreciate most things stem from the great thinkers and inventors of the great western liberal democratic tradition.'

That is a fact, it is not, in your saturated negativity, a call to fear, it is a call to embrace a broader world view and acknowledge the great achievements of our society which is based in both reason and logic and a belief in a just God and a unique western fearlessness. Fearlessness in challenging our beliefs and truths and changing them where necessary.

Unlike you we believe we have an influence on our circumstanses and that everything isn't predetermined and dominated by our God.

In response to your slur that the west is spiritless, do I have to list the writing, thought, arts, generous activity and charitable works of the 'souless' west?

You see your very narrow and uneducated view is that spiritualism is found only in God things, my view and that of us westerners is that spiritualism is found not only in God but also in ourselves and our endeavours ... that can sometimes occur despite our God.

Can you quote me from the Judaen book similar views to those you selectively and thoughtlessly cite from Christ?

In particular:
'Love God ... with all your mind'.
Have you thought through what this means? If you had you'd understand how silly your view is.

Oh so that's it. Imajulanutter. Your brain has been corroded by the dibilitating effects of studying for an artz degree. I should have known.

And I denounce your homophobia and anti racism. That leads to evil.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"Can you quote me from the Judaen book similar views"

But why? It is difficult, because the Judean book is much more willful than the new-testament. I can point you, however, to the book of Ecclesiastes, probably the best philosopher to ever live in the West.

'Every time you blokes use anything...'

I acknowledge that it's factually true. What I consider a call to fear is not the statement itself, but the context you wrote it in. What I read between the lines, and please forgive me if I'm wrong, is: "You better embrace the Western achievements, or otherwise when you get sick and suffer in agony, nobody will be able to relieve your pain".

To judge a religion by its functionality is to judge a toothpaste by how well it cleans shoes. Religion is supposed to bring you closer to God, not to give you more control over the world.

"Spiritualism" is a poor choice of word as it usually denotes talking-with-spirits and similar vices: I assume you meant "spirituality". Spirituality is the opposite of materialism. If you endeavor to achieve a material end, then great as your endeavor may be, it is not spiritual.

Re: "Love God ... with all your mind", the English translation into "mind" is indeed poor, as there is no such word in Hebrew. It could have occurred while translating Jesus' words into Greek. The original verse says: "Love thy Lord God with all your heart and all your soul and all your very-ness". Now what is this 'very-ness'? Some translated it as 'might', some as 'fortitude' or even as 'vehemence', but some Jewish commentators said, "that means money - Love God not just in a wishy-washy way, but show it for real, with your pocket".

It is not without exception. There are exceptional individuals (such as Jesus and Diogenes), but the West is generally spiritually poor because it is so busy in its material objectives, looking outside to arrange the social-order and being functional, that no time is left for finding God inside. As Jesus said, "You cannot serve two masters".

Look Lego,

I've no formal tertiary education nor degrees.

I'm probably better read than Herman Goering but just as chaotic, am not homophobic but am similar to all the great thinkers in definately being not racist

I can see you've read nothing and you confirm it by regarding such activity as debilitating... In fact your attitudfe in that regard is just plain stupid.

A racist denouncing anybody for anything is laughable.

If I was you I'd quietly sit down... you are way out of your depth.

Yutusu

"Can you quote me from the Judaen book similar views"

You are using weasel words to avoid answering.
The simple answer is no.

Ecclesiastes was not a Westerner. It is one of those totally pre-destination thoughts expressed in the Hebrew Old Testament.

It's Judean not Western. Basically everything Western rejects Ecclesiates.

Spirituality and materialism can co-exist ... why do you think they cannot? Most of us have a spiritual nature and beliefs and we all aspire to own things. Things tend to go awry when there is no balance between spirituality and materialism. Often as is evidenced in the violence of mid East too much spirituality is the problem.

Religion does not bring you closer to God. Religions are man made. Living according to the word of Christ brings you closer to god.

To emphasise the point what you said was

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind'.

The meaning of mind is a mute point.

Can you tell me how you love God 'with all your heart'?
Can you tell me how you love God 'with all your soul'?

Quite easy you think. So tell me.

Now tell me how you love God 'with all your mind'?

I'll try to simplify it.

In the west the answer we have arrived at is that we apply those talents gifted to us or developed by us to their utmost. Whether that means deveopment of a cure for disease or a more efficient way of sweeping floors is decided by the capacity of the individual. In our sphere we believe our God assesses a slack medical scientist is of less merit than a super efficient floor sweeper.

That's a westerners view of the meaning of God's/Christs words. Your intrepretation because of you Judean focus is naturally going to be quite different.

Have you read Diogenes? Few think him exceptional, many think him odd.

Most westerners don't think Christ as merely exceptional they see him as Son of God. No doubt a Judean slip on your part.

Hi Imajulianutter, I prefer to be "out of my depth" rather than interupt yourself and yuyu discussing "spiritual" BS. Herman Goering may have reched for his revolver every time he heard the word "culture", I reach for my mouse every time I read the word "spiritual", and go and find another topic.

I look forward to deprograming your culturally conditioned misconceptions at another time, on another topic. Bye.

julian quote...""To emphasise the point..you said was

'Love the Lord*..[your God]..with all your heart""

its been revealed..that love..is better to the 'heart'
than hate..[to love god with your heart][love love love]

""and..with all your soul""

the soul..as sepperate from your spirit
[your life spirit..belongs to god"
your soul body[your astral body]
is formed by your works.

[thus we can sell..'our soul'..[works]..cheaply
but satan..cant take your spirit][that belongs to god]

""and with all your mind'.""

your mind..not your brain
[they arnt the same thing]
if you have a mind to disagree
your works are disagreeable..

if you have the mindset of a slave
or of an owner of slaves..[these are things of the mind]..

not the brain

""The meaning of mind..is a mute point.""

no its key

""how you love God..'with all your heart'?""

be the love..do the loving
use your loving to love

""how you love God..'with all your soul'?""

charity..service of good to his creation

""how you love God..'with all your mind'?""

reject anything
that judges others less than thee
[you love a parent..by trying to love thier child..[as much as they do]

""west..apply those talents..gifted to us..or developed..by us..is decided..by the capacity..of the individual.""

inherantly good..is gifted
vile is devel-opted

""In our sphere..we believe our God assesses""

when of truth is
he doth..no such thing!

""because of your Judean focus..is naturally
going to be..quite different.""

yes...they KNOW..
man is not god

'take no god..before the one true god'
live with it...gnostasize upon it

""Most westerners..think Christ..as Son of God.""

we are ALL..children of the father
sadly many westerners think..*he..*IS god
when by being birthed..he definitivly isnt

GOD HAS NO MOTHER!
no father!

..he is THE..one good grace mercy
light love logic..that sustains all living..[all creation]

god is not the lord
he is god

*satan..is lord..of this realm

No doubt a..[western] davidian slip
on your part...?

http://www.roytov.com/articles/golem.htm

The Iowa caucus results..were tallied in 2004..
by a company that is..
http://wayfaringtraveler.blogspot.com/2012/01/homeless-republic-election-fraud.html

headed..by a man
whose company...was bought
by Elron Electronics,..the Israeli defense firm.

I suspect that it will be the same..this year.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/political_insider/santorum_there_no_palestine

Don't expect to see any grassroots political activists..doing the tally in Iowa...The Israeli defense establishment takes care of that part of the American.."democratic"..sic..elect-ion pro-cess.
http://www.dailypaul.com/196442/elron-voxeo-the-israeli-defense-firm-that-tallies-the-iowa-caucus

CNN: "What do you mean the numbers don't match? "
http://www.bbvforums.org/forums/messages/143/81800.html?1325687871
CNN: What's the total
for Clinton County, Romney, Santorum, Paul?}

CC: Ohh. Are they correct?
I haven't [doubled or done them].
I added them up.

I ADDED THEM UP, UHH, A COUPLE TIMES.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/11580
Ohh man.

CC: I show Romney coming up with a total of 437 votes
for Clinton County. Santorum had 354.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/10/mitt-romneys-foreign-policy-advisers.html

CNN: This is what's missing and we need the state's central committiee to clear this up...lol

But, the numbers we're receiving for the state do not match the numbers we just received from the chair-woman, right here in Clinton County.

If these are the final numbers...

CC: What do you mean the numbers don't match?

CNN: Well, I'll explain it.. [Laughter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3TSxm2V8aVQ

http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/
http://surferjoe202020.blogspot.com/2012/01/25-predictions-for-2012-2015-plus-five.html

no one is safe
http://www.bushstole04.com/iran/iran_us_satan.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f1vP0XVxDg
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17172
http://www.theoverthrowshow.com/2012/01/04/shock-audio-iowa-republican-party-data-director-confirms-potential-voter-fraud-in-ron-paul-count/

Yutusu

Last night I was tired and I missed a couple of points in your last post.

You shouldn't read between my lines. What I say is what I say.

Your assuming that my view is intimidating says much about the influences that shape your view.

Indeed if you adhere to the thoughts expressed in Ecclesiastes, as you claim, then the very idea that we can exert influence over our own destiny by our own individual endeavours would be very fearful... and that is one of the major ingredients of westernism.

It's your own inherent fear you express and it is not an expression of a fear of my endorsing my western way.

'You cannot serve two masters.'

Generally Westerners don't. We simply seek for others what we want for themselves. The following expresses how we seek for ourselves and others the balancing of the needs of spirituality and materalism.

'We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness...'

Dear Imajulianutter,

Jews, but a few, do not follow Ecclesiastes. If anything, most Jews are model Westerners.
Christians in general do not follow the teachings of Jesus.
The Greeks do not follow the teachings of Diogenes.
The Americans claim "We hold these Truths to be self-evident", but do not follow them.

Spirituality is by definition the opposite of materialism: one dictionary entry is "incorporeal or immaterial nature", another is "the state or quality of being dedicated to God, religion, or spiritual things or values, esp as contrasted with material or temporal ones". One can split one's time between the material and spiritual, but not have both at once (except those with a multi-personality disorder).

Too much spirituality in the middle-east? Unless you consider land-grabbing and race/male-domination as incorporeal, immaterial or dedicated to God, then you must be kidding... Just because someone follows an established order that calls itself a "religion" does not make them religious!

Applying one's gifted talents is often a great discipline, especially for the young, but the goal is to master one's energy, so that one can then focus it on God, not to achieve a clean floor or a cured disease. Applying one's talents to achieve material results would miss the point and create imbalances. One should do one's duty without expectations - a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build [Ecclesiastes 3,3].

Jews don't consider Jesus exceptional as I do, they most consider him a criminal.

I was assuming that you tried using fear (of untreated illness) to persuade me to accept the Western views. As you say this is not the case, sorry!

The idea that we can exert influence over our own destiny by our own individual endeavours is indeed a valid reason to be afraid, that is unless you are a humanist who believes that you can do better than God. We can of course, to a certain degree exert willful influence, only to make our destiny worse than necessary. Better leave it to God.

i was struck by this yu quote...""Applying one's gifted talents""

http://www.google.com/search?q=bible+talents+increase

god given talent's
http://www.openbible.info/topics/god-given_talents
romans..12:2
what is good and acceptable and perfect...

but matt 25;20
talents arnt meant to stay static[they must be increased]

''' The man who had received the five talents
brought the other five. 'Master,' he said,

'you entrusted me with five talents.
See, I have gained five more.'''

i would add that talents need be good/usefull/gracefull/mercyfull/charit-able..etc

[gifted talents..{beauty?}..

""is often a great discipline,..especially for the young,
but the goal is to master one's energy,..so that one can then focus it on God,""'

i would add and to the betterment/nurture
of his creation..[as in genesis 1;28-30]

if that is..""to achieve a clean floor..or a cured disease.""

or bring peace to a war zone[its all good]
we also serve who sit and think

""Applying one's talents..to achieve material results
would miss the point and create imbalances.""

i love you[you know this]
but we must do our work..here in this realm
[if only that our works 'be known'

""One should do one's duty..without expectations""

absolutly...im doing for god
without expectation..only trying to give back..better than i got

-""a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build [Ecclesiastes 3,3].""

absolutly
its time those who claim to serve god
gave peace to gods favourite city[and its people
for not oner life li8ves..but by gods causing and sustaining it its life

no death can please
the life giving good

love god
by trying to love other
[each-[and every}..*other]

Yutusu,

Here again is our point of difference. I don't jhave much interest in the belief's of individuals or groups of individuals or their behaviours.

What I do examine is how the chronocled beliefs of the groups have impacted on the societies in which individuals partake. ie how the basic beliefs and their initial influence impacted and how they have influenced developmont within their society.

In the west our basis of Justice and society has been influenced greatly by Christ's words and his forgiving emphasis. Other influences have also played, probably, more important roles. Notably the Greeks, the reformation and enlightenment times.

The Isreali law is in contrast based and stated to be based on traditions of the Judean scriptures. It is wrong to say the same of the present Israeli society ... it is a mish mash of contradictions.

As a westerner I enjoy my heritage and do not disparage it, but when looking at Israel justice traditions and society I am critical.

The opposite allpies to you and your views.

Our individaul day to day activities may be dominated by the society we live in but we cannot have the same reasons, nor appreciation, nor the full enjoyment of, nor support for those societies not based in our respective beliefs.

Another very basic difference

'The idea that we can exert influence over our own destiny by our own individual endeavours is indeed a valid reason to be afraid, that is unless you are a humanist who believes that you can do better than God. We can of course, to a certain degree exert willful influence, only to make our destiny worse than necessary. Better leave it to God.'

We believe God gave us free will and that is embodied in our laws and society as I showed in an earlier post. We also reject pre-destination.

'Applying one's gifted talents is often a great discipline, especially for the young, but the goal is to master one's energy, so that one can then focus it on God, not to achieve a clean floor or a cured disease.'

Again a basic difference. We believe we can do one or the other or both. No matter the case the important thing for us is to use our free will and aspire to reach our full potential which we see as being a state our god told us is 'in his likeness'.

You see in exclusive terms only and do not seem to aspire to your God's likeness. You seem to aspire to a state of spititual goodness to the exclusion of anything material ... physical or intangible(eg increasing knowledge.)

This debate has had extraordinary breath and really is challenging and confirming my beliefs.

I hope you find the same.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"Here again is our point of difference. I don't jhave much interest in the belief's of individuals or groups of individuals or their behaviours."

Indeed, and as you have no much interest in these (I do), I also don't have much interest in society and its development. As far as I am concerned, society is an unavoidable by-product of life and my only concern regarding this by-product is that it doesn't get too much in the way of life (just like the way we ensure that household-garbage does not pile up too high).

However, I cannot see the connection between my private views and Israel: the vast majority of Israelis are keen about their society, more than the average Australian.

"We believe God gave us free will and that is embodied in our laws and society"

- So now I need to thank society for not robbing me of God's gifts? Who are they anyway, who think they are bigger and better than God?

"We also reject pre-destination"

- I agree that you can use your will to influence your destiny - but in the long term, only for the worse. Nevertheless, it's very hard to stop using one's will, so even once we understand the futility of our will, we are unable to let go of it overnight, allowing God's will to prevail.

"the important thing for us is to use our free will and aspire to reach our full potential which we see as being a state our god told us is 'in his likeness'."

- Our full potential is to become an empty vessel in God's service.

"You see in exclusive terms only and do not seem to aspire to your God's likeness. You seem to aspire to a state of spititual goodness to the exclusion of anything material..."

- Why aspire merely to God's likeness when you can realize that you ARE God: drop your will, drop your ego, and you will realize you have never been anything but God. Indeed, there is nothing but God. The material can then take care of itself.

yu's quote..""..agree that you can use your will
to influence your destiny -but in the long term,..only for the worse.""

i feel not using our will..to be willfull occasionally
means we allready lost..the ability..[gift]..of freewill

its the egsemptions that confirm the rule

""Nevertheless,..it's very hard to stop using one's will""

i hold its immpossable
[only god is perfect]
[and man is not cnnot be god]

""so even once we understand..the futility of our will,
we are unable to let go of it..overnight""

we place too much expectation
upon our flawed vessels,[gods will is that we grow/learn...know
we cant do that by being perfect blindly...but by trying to be perfect..[as perfect as we allow ourselves to be}

""allowing God's will to prevail.""

for our willingness
to will to DO..good is gods will

"""the important thing..for us..is to use our free will
and aspire to reach our full potential..which we see as being a state our god told us is..'in his likeness'.""..

god hasnt 'told' us
many messengers tried to tell us
[as they tried to tell us in his image
[good..grace mercy..light life charity]

not darkness...fear angst
greed judgment/vile perversions etc]

""Our full potential..is to
become an empty vessel..in God's service.""

where we try..to serve the good's of god]
our vassel is not empty

but empty vessels
do make the loudest noises

"You see..in exclusive terms only...""

and god is fully inclusive of all

exclusive terms only..""do not seem to aspire..to our God's likeness.""

im reminded of the..inspire expire topic
[inspire is gods good IN-spi-ration]

""You seem to aspire..to a state of spititual goodness
to the exclusion..of anything material..."""

this is not..why we have this realm for
we must work in this realm..because we wernt good enough
to aspire the higher being..and havnt earned the lower being

[we are here to get passion..for something..anything..

[we are here to get passionate enough..to live for our passion..]
for good/god/..eternally..preferably good passions..but he dont judge

[but vile
allows better good..to be done
so its all 'good'

""Why aspire..when you can realize..that you ARE God:""

cause we know a part of the all
cant be THE all...one can never be the many

""drop your will""
ill-will..drop our fears,

""drop your ego""
only god is all good
we have eternity to l-earn,
a the summer flower..comes only after much service..through the winter

""and you will realize..you
have never been anything..but""..served..towards love...by God.

""Indeed,..there is nothing but God.""

wether your the heart or kidney
the eye or the mouth..[of good]..or not
your all yet the one god made flesh[its not our smallness that we fear...but the greatness we can find even in the least

""The material..""
can then take care of itself.""

but if you know..a true good..
and dont try..with passion..to bring it..into this reality
others will bring in..ever more vile...

strive for a balance
if it hurts anyone..it hurts god

if its god
doing it..to god...[thats not a good sign]..[madness]..

but god is all good..the error
thus is thus in our conception..that allows for error
we conscoiously...try to avoid..

by listening
to our inner voice..voicing its free choice outwardly

good choice
is good for all..[thus is good..for god]
goods of gods

I understand your beliefs. I have mine. We are simply different. I don't bear an annimonisty to you for you being different. I do think the different beliefs we hold are fairly typical respectively of the majority of Westerners and Israelis. I think those beliefs have impacted on the creation of the respective societies we live in and are a major cause of difference between how our societies impact on ourselves and others.

'However, I cannot see the connection between my private views and Israel: the vast majority of Israelis are keen about their society, more than the average Australian'

Our society attemps to (and sometimes fails) impact equitabitily on all. Israeli society sets out to impact differently on Jewish Israelis, Bedioun, Iranians, Palestinians, all Arabs whether Egyption, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian and Saudi,

therein lies the crux of Isreal's disgracefulness. We in the west do understand the basis of our justise system is fairness and forgiveness and we understand the separation of state from religion. They are fundamental to our society.

You are typical of the majority of Israelis and their sympathisers(Except for the likes of Singer, who being a lawyer should know better.) who don't share an understanding of how different Israel is to the west... and the reason why eventually the west will reject Israel.

Yutusu,

we cannot be God,
Christ told us we are made in his likeness.

free will cannot only make things worse,
Christ told us we can choose good or evil but if we ask forgiveness for our (evil)sins we will be forgiven and saved.

'Our full potential is to become an empty vessel in God's service.'
Christ told us our actions show our love for God and that serves to honour him.

Your tone seems to show you adament in your views and critical of mine, and that is a major difference. I don't judge yours, I see only that they are different to mine.

Could these be a few of the differences and reasons that led to the crucifixion?

iamajulianutter,

Your posts are quite extraordinary ... certainly about Israel ... do you ever actually go back and read what you have written ...

I suggest you read:

"Jesus' Attitude towards the Law: a study of the Gospels" by William Loader

"The Trial of Jesus of Nazareth" by S.G.F. Brandon

You might find these enlightening.

In case of any kneejerk reaction to these suggestions, Prof. William Loader is a Christian theologian, as was the late Professor Brandon ... holding among many other positions membership of the Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, and of the Society for Old Testament Study.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"You are typical of the majority of Israelis"

A strange thing to say! Very few Israelis think like me.

"Could these be a few of the differences and reasons that led to the crucifixion?"

The answer is a clear NO, because Israel and the Jews are not, and never have (as a nation, there are of course some exceptional individuals), held views similar to mine - it they did, they wouldn't remain Jews!

Where did you get this strange idea as if I represent Israel or the Jews?
The only reason I support Israel is because my family lives there - and so I believe would you if it was YOUR family! I may hate the Israeli expansionist policies, but without the Jewish state my family could not remain alive.

"how different Israel is to the west... and the reason why eventually the west will reject Israel."

The anthropological, perhaps even biological, observation, is that people tend to reject most vehemently those who are close to them and ALMOST the same, rather than others who are distinctly different.

Israel is already being rejected, but what I am supposed to do? say bye-bye to my family and allow them to die there? No, I support their fight for their lives, even if it is tragically alongside the wrong people, how much more so when the people they fight against are even worse!

On the theological side:

There can be nothing but God (anything else would limit God), including us. I think that Jesus had a very hard time explaining such deep concepts to Jewish peasants.

"free will cannot only make things worse"

Not free will itself, of course not, but specific choices we make through it, such as attempting to influence our destiny rather than act at the service of God.

"Christ told us we can choose good or evil but if we ask forgiveness for our (evil)sins we will be forgiven and saved."

"Christ told us our actions show our love for God and that serves to honour him."

I agree with both statements, there is no contradiction.

Danielle,

you need to read much much more widely.

Yutusu.

Judaism is mired in the views you express... and Judaism determines Israeli law and the society that exists in Israel... do I have to keep repeating myself?

'"Christ told us we can choose good or evil but if we ask forgiveness for our (evil)sins we will be forgiven and saved."

"Christ told us our actions show our love for God and that serves to honour him."

I agree with both statements, there is no contradiction'

But you claim exercising free will will only makes our (pre-ordained)destiny worse. There is the contradiction.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"Judaism is mired in the views you express... do I have to keep repeating myself?"

Yes, please be specific and give examples if you can. Judaism is one of the most willful movements I'm aware of, it will do anything it can, be it right or wrong, to preserve itself, to improve the destiny of the Jewish nation.

The one thing I have in common with Judaism is that I want the state of Israel to survive - each for our own different reasons. Can you find and specify any other commonalities (I don't mean things that are common to all humans, such as having two arms and two legs)?

"But you claim exercising free will will only makes our (pre-ordained)destiny worse. There is the contradiction."

I didn't say so. What I said is that attempting to willfully exert influence over our own destiny will only make it worse - that's an unwise use of our free will. We are free to do so, but there are consequences.

weasel words ... now where have I said that numerous times before.

this is now tedious. Obviously you're stuck a few thousand years behind the rest of us westeners and are unable to open your mind and accept others are different from you and that their beliefs differ fundamentally from yours.

ima/quote..""But you claim..exercising free will
will only makes our (pre-ordained)destiny worse...There is the contradiction.""

i use the predestination intro..to expand on this concept
when we get to a destin-nation..we arrive at a predetermined..DESTINATION...

[no more *path
[no more*way ..no more tao*

we have arrived AT OUR DESTINation
we WILL all arrive
this is preordained..pre-destined

the HOW..or why
of our frely chosen way..of our path
which way..we got TO*..the destin-nation
[or two state pre desti-nation]..isnt as important as getting to it

once we are all there
its fixed

so forget how we got here
were arrived..!

know it
were here
where the living loving gracefull the mercy full is
[our destination lain within us all
all along]

our path to getting there
was as simple as..seeing were all
all-ready..arrived!

welcome home
you are both welcomed and welcommer
hosted beloved precious...[all of you]

peace is here
if we chose to know it so

[appolgies for not recording this mess-age more true
but see..there is nuthin left to do..[except prepare the place for visiters]..as more and more see we are here...home

send all the children....home

Dear Imajulianutter,

I take it that you were unable to do your homework and come back with some similarities between my views and Judaism, yet you repeatedly, irrationally and ridiculously accuse me of belonging to the Jewish persuation, on the sole grounds that I am not a Westerner.

I was born into the Western culture, and even took a fancy to it in my teens, but then I did, with God's grace, discover how hollow it is and grew out of it.

yutusu
really tiresome and your usual old hat criticisms. If you don't see how similar your beliefs are to those that form the basis of Isreali law and society then me showing you won't make the slightest difference.

Especially since your form here has been for you to refuse to recognise those things you don't want to see... as an example and especially the inherent good in freewill and westernism.

Why should I bother? I'd be talking to a brick wall.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"Why should I bother? I'd be talking to a brick wall."

Indeed you never bothered to explain or give us an idea what you are talking about and indeed it is your right, by your free-will, not to bother.

You have not even bothered to spell my name correctly, but you have bothered to try to smear it on this forum by accusing me of being a supposed example of the Judaen persuation.

It seems that you have no respect to anyone who isn't Western, whom you ignorantly and unintelligently bundle into the 'Judean' box.

You do not need to bother substantiating your accusations against me, but then let all the rest of this forum know that they are baseless.

Free will is not a Western invention. Free will is God-given and been recognized in the earliest records of history. The purpose of free will is to allow us to choose good and reject evil, not just to permit us to do as we please without consequences.

yeah whatever

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17294
im more concerned with the ongoing assasinations

of key iranians..
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28598
by the mossad...by the us pres orders...[first link]

or just the insane xtian zionist endtimers

but this topic aint about that
it seems its about institutions

and means to subvert and control the value's
inherant in delivering the promised contractual terms

and willing to kill all of creation
to deliver past childish promises..with our blood

insane endtime zionists...[note cia links to mossad
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2008/01/romney-and-mormons.html

doing assasination..with aussie..[sur-real]..passports
us presidents [cia/mossad]..ordering assasinations
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1113741--iranian-nuclear-scientist-killed-in-bomb-attack?bn=1#comments

even building hospitals in georgia
lol to heal some after armygeddon
[oops sorr.. navy/airforce/seals/pigs..getting it on]

http://rt.com/politics/us-georgia-iran-war-441/

and other 'sign's..the insane still want an end time
http://rt.com/politics/amd-russia-us-nato-radar-451/

some so hate god
[and his creation]..they are willing to kill it..
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4174088,00.html
bit by bit
or all at once..

[and if they can make a little cash..on the side
their onto it

imagine if iran..[or palistein]..said this
http://news.antiwar.com/2012/01/10/75-israeli-shells-land-in-lebanon-during-military-exercise/

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/its-all-out-war-against-palestinian-children-israels-8th-deadly-sin/

It is easy to see Israel's minions loading up the comments section with unfounded accusations against Iran.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1113741--iranian-nuclear-scientist-killed-in-bomb-attack?bn=1#comments

I note with particular interest
http://america-hijacked.com/2012/01/11/us-senators-warn-eu-on-risk-of-iran-war/

to israel
the claim that Iran could prove its nuclear ambitions were peaceful if they only included foreign scientists.

Such claims only betray the total ignorance of Israel's supporters because Russians are on the ground at Natanz, building that power station.

I would also point out that as a signator to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty,

Iran allows all of its nuclear faciltiies to be inspected and monitored by the IAEA, something Israel, which has never signed the NNPT, continues to refuse.

Likewise, under Article IV of the NNPT, the United States is OBLIGATED to assist Iran in building their peaceful nuclear facilities, a sure way to make certain there is no Dimone-like clandestine weapons factory underneath it.

Yet the US remains in violation of this treaty obligation, because the US needs a climate of uncertainty to sell the lies used to trick Americans into another war of conquest.
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/01/us-backed-terror-group-responsible-for.html

Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta admitted only last Sunday that Iran does not have nuclear weapons any more than Iraq did.

The IAEA continues to confirm that, outside of fabricated evidence on the Mossad-supplied "laptop of death", there is no evidence of weapons development in Iran.

Final note;
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2012/01/2012110143018616205.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMS70mgrAcE

allegations that Iran
is involved in terrorism are constantly being made as justification for an attack,
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/01/iran-quickly-evolving-geopolitical_11.html

yet as has been the case..with the accusations of nuclear weapons,
evidence is absent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=inuo5rfYAHs
or fabricated.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/01/201211162848691713.html

http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=17294
"Truth is the first casualty of war." -- Senator Hiram Johnson
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
http://theintelhub.com/2012/01/11/unaccountable-private-military-contractor-abuses/

"All war is based on deception." -- Sun Tsu
http://www.activistpost.com/2012/01/unplug-yourself-how-advertising-and.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4174088,00.html

Dear David,

Thought I would let you know about Newt's pay day.

Multi-Billionaire Jewish casino magnate Sheldon Adelson had said after Newt's comments about Palestinians being an invented people, "Read the history of those who call themselves Palestinians, and you will hear why Gingrich said recently that the Palestinians are an invented people," Adelson said. "There are a number of Palestinians who will recognize the truth of this statement."

And last week Newt got his pay off in the form of a $5,000,000 cheque to his Super PAC directly from Mr Aldeson.

Enough said.

Dear Csteele,

The corruption of Newt does not imply that the Palestinians are NOT invented.

All nations are invented: some were invented 1000's of years ago and others only decades ago
(and the Australian nation is middling with a 3-digit figure).

Does it make a difference? probably not!
(except in David's legalistic mind)

Dear Yuyutsu,

Indeed, but the subtitle to this piece is "Newt Gingrich has had the courage to come out and say what few others will: the Palestinian people are an invention."

I'm just making the point that only the most gullible or desperate person would think that 'courage' had anything whatsoever to do with it.

at its heart..we are here to seek a peace
if not only for ourselves..then for all the others

key for the others is a secularist state
that serves the needs of people of divergent faiths

now its clear...that jews and arabs..have this old fashoned idea
of sepperation of man from not man[sexism]

secularists might regard this as not acceptable
but more not acceptable..is these religeous kooks ruling their rules over the rest of us..so clearly..religeon and politricks...has become too intertwined

the world rule..of sepperation of govt from religeon
is here well highlighted..so its time we non religeous...
overruled those claiming to serve...stopped serving the unswerving

if you want food..grow it
if you wany a house build it
if you see someone in need help them

govt will take care of charity
[its too important to leave to haters..hating woman...bullying children...overlording it over the weak]...church can do what it likes..but only within its own bounds

roads and services are left to govt
[charged with getting everywhere 'up to code']
helping the weak to heal..the hunger to eat..the cold to get warm

church can serve its masters..its elders..
who run the church business..who pay tythe to the state
just like any other business..[pay the rent][or loose ya assets]

see govts dont validate religeon
govts rule by gods graces alone
not by religeons decree

the churches stand under govt
and govt stands under god

and god...under stands his creation
serves the most vile[least]..their life too
govts need to stand up..put these religeous kooks back onto their communes...

and then just let them be
[within their own walls]

any who enter..their holy bits..
must wear appropriate clothing as suited to the walled in area..
and follow their local councils peers orders..

[but outside the walls..
within the greater israel..
well thats tourist dress sense

western ideals..govt serving the deserving
peace on earth..good will to all man..not just men

love god by loving neighbour
paying ya govt consumption/toll taxes as you go

and tythe..where tythe is
just for the few..
jew[dew]due

god belongs to everyone
not just you few