OLO posts three propaganda articles in one day, but won't allow the reproduction of a comment which applies to each of them. So this post is necessarily similar to others:

>>Jayden Holmes is a student at the University of Melbourne and a member of the Global Voices Australian Youth Delegation to the UN negotiations in Durban this week.

>>Michael Mazengarb is a student at The Australian National University and a member of the Global Voices Australian Youth Delegation to the UN negotiations in Durban this week.

>>Chris Wright is a student at Macquarie University and a member of the Global Voices Australian Youth Delegation to the UN negotiations in Durban this week.

>>Heather Bruer is an Economics student at the University of Adelaide. She is currently the International Co-director at the Australian Youth Climate Coalition.

>>Clancy Moore is attending the U.N Climate Summit in Durban, South Africa form 28 November to 9 December 2011 as part of Oxfam's U.N. Climate Change Tracker Project.

All of this propaganda in one week. After that lot, I gave up.

Nobody can say Jo Coghlan and OLO are not doing their bit to promote this crap from "students" whose ideology is clear, but whose expertise is invisible.

No doubt Graeme will cut anybody who comments harshly on the lack of editorial integrity. OLO has become just another vehicle for leftist propaganda.

The hypocrisy of the 15,000 who flew to Durban to celebrate the junk science of carbon dioxide emissions is breath-taking.

Come on Graham, I thought this was a forum for grown ups.

It's about you blokes give over, you are waging war on a losing battle.

It's like saying water is wet.

This is an excerpt from an address by Senator Jim Inhofe in relation to the upcoming hot air fest in Durban, which may help to put the efforts of the AGW scam backers in context:

“Just two years ago, President Obama, along with members of his administration, several members of the Congressional Democratic leadership, and Al Gore, travelled to Copenhagen to tell the world that the United States was ready to join the United Nations efforts and implement costly global warming regulations through cap-and-trade legislation.

Knowing this was nothing but a lie, I made the trip to Copenhagen as a one-man truth squad to inform the 191 countries in attendance that there was no way the United States Senate would ever pass global warming cap-and-trade. They didn’t like it, but I was right and they were wrong. Now, two years later, my colleagues are nowhere to be found at the latest conference……..

Let me end by thanking my friends from CFACT. We have worked closely together to expose this costly agenda for years. You should know that global warming skeptics everywhere wish we could be with you celebrating the final nail in the coffin on location in South Africa. And…tell Al Gore hello for me. “

I find it regrettable that he refers to Realists as “skeptics”, but his message is clear and true.

The AGW fraud is dead, but will not lie down. The efforts of the Pacific Islands to back it are pathetic. Durban will be a greater failure than Cancun.

579,

"...waging war on a losing battle"?? what the hell does THAT mean?

I'm always amazed by your "authority" statements, always quoting somebody else, entirely uncritically, but with nothing else to contribute.

Oh Please let the Pacific islanders look after themselves. That is catch the abundant fish around them and eat this rather than buying US junk food and killing themselves by doing so.
Seems to be they employ smart arse mouthpiece actors to drum up all this nonsense.
The oceans are not rising the Islanders are dying because of their poor life style choices and it is up to them to sort themselves out!

Who the hell paid for a load of ideologically brainwashed moneywasting Student Activists to travel to Durban? I suspect we all did. Why do we need thousands of 'observers' from all manner of dodgy Non government organisations to go there?

These conferences are all junkets for acolytes of the AGW religion and serve little other purpose. Now some nations are using climate change as reasons for mass migration to economically better off countries. All part of the UN's share the wealth agenda.

Oooh when I think of the money wasted on this crap!

Jayden,

Did South African President Jacob Zuma offer to resettle any climate
refugees from the Pacific Island nations?

Where's the need for translators?

English is an official language of Kiribatti, Tonga, Samoa, and Fiji.

Grow up you are talking with adults here.

Jayden,

You can tell who are the grown-ups on this forum by the pseudonyms they use....

I agree JBowyer that the Pacific Islanders can & should look after themselves.

I do not agree they are dying out. I took a Google earth cruise around my old stamping grounds, to the north & east of New Guinea recently. I was quite shocked at what I saw.

On many of the high [volcanic] islands the villages are much larger, but apart from the palm oil areas, much of the coconut plantations, flourishing 30/40 years ago are reverting to bush.

It is even worse on the low [atolls] islands. The loss of plantations is similar, but the growth in housing, & the huge increase in numbers of canoes, pulled up on the beaches shows a population explosion.

These atolls have a limited carrying capacity. Even the larger ones, with 200 or 300 square miles of lagoon it is really only the fringing reef that supports much fish life, & water is always limited. Some I knew with populations of 3 or 4 hundred must now be over a couple of thousand.

We may have to do some humanitarian work with these folk, who are breeding themselves out of a home, but it must be for the true reason, to enable the right solution.

Hey Poirot,

the wild celebration in the Labor Party following the passing of the Greens policy on Carbon Tax is odd. We see them still gaining around only 30% in the polls ... among the adults.

hahahaha

In case some of you haven't noticed OLO publishes across the board. I received a number of articles about the Durban conference and some of them, including this one, but also Christopher Monckton's, were worth publishing.

Instead of complaining, why not find some articles from a different perspective.

In my career of managing media I generally found that complaints about bias were actually admissions of inability to run a proper media strategy and frustration that your opponent didn't suffer from the same inability.

Graham,

The issue is the quality of the articles you publish, not media strategy.

Hell, who'd use OLO as part of a media strategy, apart from the likes of the Youth Climate Coalition?

And because they do, and are uncritically boosted, it diminishes the credibility of OLO. It's looking more and more like a school magazine, where everybody gets a run because, regardless of quality, their feelings might be hurt if they were not published. Prizes for all.

The articles you have been publishing from from those spending other people's money to junket in Durban are manifestly just juvenilia.

You speak of your experience in media management, yet there is no sign whatsoever that any editorial judgment has been exercised in putting this pap on the site.

These articles have no intrinsic value whatsoever.

Yet you have published FIVE of them in the past week or so, three on Friday, so from an editorial point of view, there's not only the question of quality, but also the question of balance and editorial judgement.

Talk about useful idiots.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't - who would want to be an editor?

Your hypocricy (like your copy-n-paste efforts) is palpable, KenH.

KenH has made a valid point: the standards you apply to articles supporting AGW claims are much, much lower than the standards you apply to those rebutting them. The latter need proofs, documentation and clear, intelligent writing: the former are usually slabs of cut-and-paste from unreliable sources linked with high, desperate whining for more funds. As with your editorial cartoon and your coverage of religious issues, your double standards reveal your bias.

I do not understand the criticism of the editorial policy of this forum.

It presents both sides of the debate in any matter which arises, and in global warming I find it reassuring that the pro AGW articles show the death throes of the flawed and dishonest position of the alarmists.

It has to be played out, and this forum is ideal, in that it is tolerant of all aspects. I have only ever seen a contributor deleted for abuse, not for the views expressed, however ridiculous they might be.

I am grateful for the format and the editorial policy. If I want freedom to express myself, then it is appropriate to approve of freedom for others to express themselves, however inept or dishonest they may be.

If any of you know of a better forum than OLO, I would appreciate you letting me know.

I have looked elsewhere and found available alternatives to be cumbersome and restrictive.

Leo,

Other things being equal, it's a good thing that everybody has a chance to express an opinion.

But not all opinions are equal. Those based entirely on ideology, cant and sentiment are pretty much worthless. It follows that an editor should favour contributions which are based on validated facts, evidence and logic.

In this case, Graham is not fair dinkum when he suggests that publishing one article by Monckton balances publishing three articles on one day (and at least five in about a week) from "students" pushing their ideological interests.

So, apart from being on the roster to write articles for OLO, what have these freeloaders contributed, exactly, to the proceedings in Durban? Would they be there at all if the Gillard government had not reintroduced compulsory student union fees, doled out, as of old, to the usual left wing suspects?

For Graham to suggest, as he has done, that complaints are made only because some people can't prosecute a "media strategy" is disingenuous. Getting a run on OLO does not amount to a "media strategy". No, OLO is targetted because it is a soft touch and does not apply the editorial standards contributors would face in most other places - standards of evidence, logic and written expression.

I disagree, KenH.

>>But not all opinions are equal. Those based entirely on ideology, cant and sentiment are pretty much worthless. It follows that an editor should favour contributions which are based on validated facts, evidence and logic.<<

You are asking the editor to do exactly what you profess to be unhappy about - playing favourites.

For myself, I'd much prefer to be able to hear the opinion - however well-founded or otherwise - of anyone with an opinion to share. It performs one of two services: either adds weight to your own convictions on the topic, thanks to the fragility of the ideas expressed, or it gives you cause to doubt, and think more deeply.

Either, I would have thought, is sufficient justification for publishing both Monckton's and the students' opinions in the same forum.

Pericles I too like looking at others opinions. That is when those expressing them, are expressing a real opinion, with some thought behind it.

This requires some knowledge, some study, & the maturity to evaluate the evidence they have discovered.

I am always turned off by some fool reporter asking a kid what they think of something, just as I would be if they asked the family pet.

No these students are not pets, they are also not mature. Any regurgitation of stories they have been fed, may have a place in a students mag, but have no place here.

I don't come here to listen to children displaying the results of their brainwashing, by a bunch of leftist university professors, who have, for some years, been very good at displaying their inability to understand anything involving more than a couple of syllables, themselves.

Not at all, Pericles

If one of these "students" can produce an article which is factual, verifiable, logical and well written, then go ahead, publish it.

But they do not. The submission and publication of three articles of dubious quality on the one day is clear evidence that they are part of a concerted effort to dominate OLO - because they know OLO is a soft touch.

How many of them would submit anything if they had not been freeloading in Durban?

The same editorial criteria should be applied to each and every article submitted, especially those which are unsolicited.

You imply, I think, that every opinion is worth seeing and therefore that every contribution should be published. With the greatest respect, that is simply not so. Life's too short.

Do you think that newspapers publish every letter to the editor? I'll let you in on a secret: they do not. The letters editor will apply his judgment on the basis of content, logic, written expression and balance (that is, the balance of pro and contra opinion). The editor does not want to appear one-sided, nor to bore his readers through repetition. At least that's the way it should work.

There are circumstances where discrimination is a good thing. The editing process is one of them.

The author makes a legitimate point, and it is this which needs to be addressed, and not his age or status as a uni student.

The Pacific Islands deserve to have a decent hearing at any conference affecting them, and climate change is just such a concern, particularly when it is clear that the major developed and developing nations have every intention of railroading the whole affair in their favour. The fault in the whole conference setup is the overstuffed delegations from the major nations. It is certain that a few good representatives would be able to achieve far more, if they were first given a mandate by their government and people. But the big boys just have to throw their weight around, and intimidate the smaller nations, just because they can. Aus should be pitching-in and assisting in representing the interests of our smaller neighbours, and so really should be the U.S. We'll believe it when we see it.

Did our government ask us what we would like the conference to achieve, or at least inform us of their proposals so that we could form an opinion or make an input? Fat chance. Policy on the run, as usual.

Island states all over the world are a microcosm of large nations. IE monkey see, monkey do!

The eternal Free Market syndrome is at play.

Its The Easter Island syndrome:

Overpopulation--> use up all cheap energy resources + destroy environmental climate barriers(wetlands,mangroves,forests) & replace them with fragile/vulnerable & PROFITABLE populous structures that create elitist WEALTH.

--> wait for the next NATURAL weather cycle to kill some of the vulnerable people

--> NEVER take responsibility & blame everyone else who you think can pay to get you back on your enviro-destroying track

--> When those you blame tell you to suck it up (after their young Liberals and Labourals have cut their teeth on the issue) YOU migrate to somewhere where you can do it all over again while all the really vulnerable islanders just conveniently DIE in a lifeless environment.

This is why a false, or at best irrelevant scientific theory, AGW, is so convenient. It diverts attention from the ELITE wealth accumulators, blames & taxes the poor and weak and sets the stage for a major global CULL of human civilisation when OIL runs out circa 2030 when 2/3 of human populations will be deemed irrelevant and past their use by date.

After the CULL what about Climate change & AGW?

Well with 2/3 of the 'A' in AGW gone, even the AGW scientists, who will be the first irrelevancies to be exterminated btw, would agree that the climate change problem had been solved!

This is the real worry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B

According to Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz, bunker 1 held 800 people, and bunker 2 held 1,200.[27] Once the chamber was full, the doors were screwed shut and solid pellets of Zyklon B were dropped into the chambers through vents in the side walls, releasing the cyanide gas. Those inside died within 20 minutes; the speed of death depended on how close the inmate was standing to a gas vent, according to Höss, who estimated that about one third of the victims died immediately.[28][29] Johann Kremer, an SS doctor who oversaw the gassings, testified that: "Shouting and screaming of the victims could be heard through the opening and it was clear that they fought for their lives."[30] When they were removed, if the chamber had been very congested, as they often were, the victims were found half-squatting, their skin colored pink with red and green spots, some foaming at the mouth or bleeding from the ears."

It beggars belief that given that we live under the FREE MARKET god where many people have declared themselves TOO IMPORTANT TO FAIL, and that some nations PRINT money to buy goods from poorer nations, that AGW and Climate Change scientists still have any credibility.

Yes, there are significant warning signs for the next 20 years.

BUT THEY HAVE absolutely NOTHING .... to do with climate!

Having just visited 14 Pacific Island states including Kiribati, I can see the point of what the author is saying...they definitely do want a "say" in Climate Change policy.
Alas, they have Buckley's.
First, very large climate changes are locked in and will require adaptation even if a CO2 miracle were to occur. Second, half their issues are not climate related, they are due to overpopulation and unsustainable economies. Some land-locked African countries are facing much the same issues: water, food, energy, minerals. The staple of Kiribati is imported rice and pot-noodles, the main exports are fishing permits and remittances from overseas expats. Unlike the bigger island states such as Fiji and Vanuatu, these low lying states have very little resources to build from and most aid goes into short term fixes. Rarely are budgets sustainable in the longer term. Hasbeen is correct: they are increasing in numbers and many island states have more citizens in Aus and NZ than the home islands.
KenH: Just how qualified are you to call the science "Junk"? Do you know what a Hadley cell is? What about the current rate of sea surface temperature rise? Do you know what "natural" warming looks like relative to CO2 induced warming? How much data from how many stations have you reviewed? Do you know what Latent Heat is and the relevance to Climate? Lastly, do you ever use weather forecasts? If so, why given that it is based on the same "junk"? Why do airlines world over pay good money for them to keep passengers safe?
I think you are being suckered by Big Oil's propaganda and the Rights little cave of echoes...but just in case you have any real arguments instead of name calling and youth bashing...here's your chance to educate. Give me your technical analysis as to why thousands of scientists around the world using real data are wrong and you are so smugly right. You seem to assume they are both stupid and corrupt! Such accusations require some evidence. (faux email "scandal" beatups don't count! 9 reviews, all vindicated.)

Nup. I still beg to differ.

Hasbeen, it sounds as though you are looking for a thesis, rather than an opinion.

>>Pericles I too like looking at others opinions. That is when those expressing them, are expressing a real opinion, with some thought behind it. This requires some knowledge, some study, & the maturity to evaluate the evidence they have discovered.<<

In fairness, that would rule out some 99.5% of the folk on this Forum who pontificate about climate change. With the added problem, please note, that the voices of 0.5% would be indistinguishable from those of the rest.

KenH is of the same mind:

>>If one of these "students" can produce an article which is factual, verifiable, logical and well written, then go ahead, publish it.<<

These are expressions of opinion we are hearing, KenH. We are not receiving tablets of stone.

I would far rather be made aware of the opinions of our youth, however naive they may appear to be, than be surrounded by groupthinkers. I feel the same way about the outpourings of racist bigots, or religious bigots, or the whole raft of wacky conspiracy dudes that we meet here almost every day. I am genuinely interested in what sort of awareness and understanding informs their views, and the sources from which they are derived. Life would be so much duller if we cocooned ourselves away with a bunch of like-minded sobersides.

Let's face it, there's quite possibly also a teensy amount of envy that these people get to go to Durban, and you don't. That fact alone is probably worth a good solid harrumph.

"Nup" I can't stand people who BEG - period.

From fools who pander to women because they think it makes them attractive.

To blind men who having just lived through a GFC crisis & are about to see another led by the same people who caused the first.

To fools who accept the historically ridiculous proposition that ANY person or organisation can EVER be TOO BIG TO FAIL.

To the brain dead who KNOW if they print money to pay their bills they will be be gaoled but BELIEVE that if a country does the same thing its not to be questioned.

Such people live amidst conspiracy like cows in a paddock next to an abatoir. They only KNOW 'what's goin' on' when they are about to walk up the RAMP to the swinging doors:

"Moo, Moo, I would far rather be made aware of the opinions of our youth, however naive they may appear to be, than be surrounded by groupthinkers. I feel the same way about the outpourings of racist bigots, or religious bigots, or the whole raft of wacky conspiracy dudes that we meet here almost every day. I am genuinely interested in what sort of awareness and understanding informs their views, and the sources from which they are derived. Life would be so much duller if we cocooned ourselves away with a bunch of like-minded sobersides."

"Moooooo"

Ozandy plays the priestly card. He has special knowledge which the rest of us are not qualified to challenge. Chaucer described the type in The Pardoner's Tale as long ago as the fourteenth century.

Instead, the global warming religion has nothing of consequence to offer because it's based on nothing but computer models. A recent illustration of this was the co-operative "research" by CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology, "funded by the Australian Government from its $330 million International Climate Change Adaptation Initiative". That's our money they are squandering.

CSIRO and BoM announced a couple of weeks ago they had used EIGHTEEN climate models to develop scarey "projections" for climate change effects in the Pacific: we were supposed to be impressed by the number of models, apparently - "never mind the quality, feel the width." They could have got by with only one computer model if any of them actually worked.

Ozandy, why would anyone bother "reviewing data" when the data have been "adjusted" - always upward? Life's too short, so I'll leave that to nerds.

The reason that the climate science has become so political is that the spivs and fraudsters who infest it have cooked the books - as illustrated beyond doubt by the the climate gate emails, the hockey stick scam, the Yamal tree ring circus and the entirely unpredicted non-warming of the past 13 years, which has occurred despite continuing annual increases in carbon dioxide emissions. I could go on. Unfortunately, the Gillard government being what it is, we are now exposed to economic catastrophe on the basis of all that spin and fraud.

The massive increases in domestic electricity bills in recent years are a direct result of all that.

Ozandy apparently also expects us to trust weather forecasts, often inaccurate only a few days out, even for a limited local area. Global warmers pretend they can predict the entire global climate a century from now. Greg Combet aside, who'd be stupid enough to believe that?

My advice to global warmers is to get out now and find another gravy train. Beat the rush.

Ozandy, it is a while since we have had such a ridiculous rant on OLO, so I suppose we were due for one.

You ask, “why thousands of scientists around the world using real data are wrong”?

They are not, that is why 31,000 of them petitioned the US Senate to take no action on climate change until there was some scientific basis for the assertion that human emissions have any measurable effect on climate.

The ones that were wrong were the 7 independent scientists who endorsed the IPCC ‘s statement that it is “very likely”. Two have withdrawn their support, so are vindicated. The other 5 continue the error. Another 55 back the statement but are conflicted, so are the equivalent of having the climategate miscreants endorse the opinion.

The assertion by you, Ozandy, that the climategate fraud has been vindicated is arrant nonsense. Not one independent enquiry has been conducted.

The release of the emails showing how the spin is perpetrated has turned the public opinion tide. The polls show that the majority of people are now aware of the fact that the AGW scam has no scientific backing.

Politicians are poll driven, and eventually have to come around to appeasing the majority, or be kicked out. Julia has opted for backing the scam, and being kicked out.

Of course, if you are able to produce any scientific backing for the assertion that human emissions have any measurable effect on climate, let us know. Also notify the IPCC, as they are desperate to back their unsupported guess.

Human emissions comprise 3% of the natural carbon dioxide cycle. There is a 10% natural variation of the volume of CO2, so it is obvious why human emissions make no difference.

What needs to be clarified is why the IPCC will not tell the truth. We know it is to do with the attempted fraud of its puppet master, the United Nations

KenH,

Be careful when you say "The massive increases in domestic electricity bills in recent years are a direct result of all that (Carbon Taxes)".

Ghoulia Shillard & Martin Pharoah Furgusson are playing "Sim City" and want statements like yours to:

Justify endless increases in electricity and ALL Energy pricings.

Its a LIE. The perfect FRONT. All along their NATION BUILDING immigration program is causing those increases. PLUS Gridlock in services from Hospitals to travel times to hidden increases in crime, to the harbouring of international Hamas criminals. These hidden COSTS of immigration are outsourced to poorer communities who get punished as they don't vote for the incumbent Government. Even Hitler youth treated their citizens with better regard - they at least murdered them just ONCE and put an end to the suffering.

"WE" have paid over and over, in blood, boredom and taxes for the power infrastructure we have today, NOT Neville bloody Wran as Fergusson blandly states. Now it is being bludged away by Fergusson on account of countless Labour voting GST paying "orks" from foreign shores. You see them every day in Sydney traffic, they BEHAVE like "orks". It costs some $300,000 in infrastructure for every man, woman and child that comes here. They get a free ride in return for direct allegiance to Federal coffers & POWER. And we pay for all this megalamaniac Sim-City nonsense.

AUSTRALIA NEEDS MEGALOMANIAC Politicians (like Fergusson) AND unjustified IMMIGRATION rates like a DESERT needs a DROUGHT.

Australia must make it clear to its prospective leaders: "When we vote, We never give you a mandate to force unsustainable, insufferable conditions upon us in order to feed YOUR megalomaniac desires."

And if extra people are needed in the mines, What are they doing clogging up Sydney's roads?

As for sustainability failures in the Pacific Islands. Their citizens should be saying much the same things to their leaders. They can then fix the overpopulation problems and forget about the lame rising Sea Level EXCUSE.

Australia needs QUALITY people not Quantity.

KAEP,

I didn't actually say "The massive increases in domestic electricity bills in recent years are a direct result of all that (Carbon Taxes)".

You have inserted the words "carbon taxes", while I was referring to the past couple of decades of global warming propaganda, which have led to the current policies of solar and wind subsidies, renewable energy targets, gross input tariffs and then on to rises in electricity prices, public transport price increases, rate rises and so on. If that was not clear from my post, I apologise.

The carbon dioxide tax has not actually bitten yet, but people should also be aware that, separately from the "clean energy" package of 19 carbon dioxide tax bills, the Gillard government has also snuck through a substantial new tax on refrigerant gases and increases in fuel exise, which have received no publicity.

The refrigerants tax will affect 800 importers and raise an estimated $270 million in its first year, which will likely be passed on to contractors (with margin) and their business customers (with margin).

All of that will be passed on to consumers, plus GST (a tax on a tax increase) so the government is deliberately misleading us when they talk about the carbon dioxide tax affecting only the "top 500 polluters". The prices of every refrigerated food product and many pharmaceuticals will be affected.

If you are running a refrigerated transport company you will get the double whammy (refrigerant tax plus fuel exise increase) and you may soon be in deep trouble.

KenH,

Global warming has nothing to do with rises in electricity prices, public transport price increases, rate rises and so on. Its all a result of the externalised costs of immigration which are being outsourced to the community while CEOs from consumables to property get rich on expanded markets & governments get POWERFUL on extra votes , GST and taxes.

My point is that global warming is just a tool megalomaniac federal and state governments are using to play Sim City with our lives. It highlights the abject failure of democratic government in Australia. It also highlights the way in which non competition in the 'Coonanesque media' has allowed governments to use them in "WE & OUR" style upbeat propaganda when all our lives are going down the toilet along with the environments that "support our dwindling food bowls". Its alarming how THAT media always speak about that 'food bowl' issue in soft voices in some kind of fool attempt to play it down. The only reason they mention it is to prepare us for more price hikes with the emphasis that "WE" are to blame for this situation and are obliged to pay extra. The phrase "what a tangled web they weave" springs to mind.

I find any attempt at aiding in this megalomania by blaming ANY part of global warming for these rising costs to be abhorrent PROPAGANDA.

The truth is that if government instigates POLICY to immigrate people into a desert island beyond its carrying capacity then Government is to blame. The people who elected them, trusting that THEY would take the consequences for their own failures should not pay for megalomaniac failures. If Australia had BIG Rivers like the Mississippi then we could immigrate more people. We DON'T & there is insufficient coal, 'tricky-dicky' energy intensive liquefied seam-gas or dwindling Oil supplies to teraform this desert continent into an erstwhile United States Of America.

Essentially we are living in a state every bit as opaque, corrupt & fundamentally unintelligent as Nazi Germany before WWII. We are at a crossroad & very soon something's 'gotta give'.

Ozandy,

Tell us again how useful weather forecasts are:

>> Two top US hurricane forecasters, famous across Deep South hurricane country, are quitting the practice of making a seasonal forecast in December because it doesn't work.

William Gray and Phil Klotzbach say a look back shows their past 20 years of forescasts had no predictive value.

The two scientists from Colorado State University will still discuss different possibilities of hurricane seasons in December. But the shift signals how fare humans are, even with supercomputers, from truly knowing what our weather will do in the long run. <<

blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/gone_with_the_wind/