Leslie Cannold should ask herself why it is that the stable democracies and the most desireable countries for immigrants and country shopping "asylum" seekers are heading for, are Canada, Britain, New Zealand, Australia, and the USA?

The answer is, they are largely populated by North European Protestant people.

There is something about the culture of the North European Protestent culture which makes succesful, prosperous and free societies. Even those Asian societies which are now prosperous and incrasingly free, did so by largely emulating the North European people with their strong work ethic, and commitment to granting their citizens broad political and social freedoms.

Australia is a Christian/agnostic society where Christian values have formed the very foundation of our laws. My belief is that immigrants must make some accomadation with these values when it comes to their behaviour in Australia, or they can go back to whatever cesspit societies they inhabited beforehand, which still cling to medieval beliefs that are inapropriate to the 21st century.

Preserving the culture of the North European Protestant people is something which is therefore worth preserving throungh an discriminatory immigration policy.

LEGO those countries you speak of have been Chris-stain countries for a long time. However they haven't been peaceful countries or democratic countries for very long at all, All the things that you Christians want to take credit for a inventions of the enlightenment not of Christianity. Just as your god person isn't real your version of history isn't either.

A good article, but the first comment is an indication of where the discussion will lead. "North European Protestant people" are indeed dominant in the countries that LEGO cites, but that's because they invaded them and took them off their Indigenous inhabitants in a brutal program of expropriation that continues to this day, and in which their churches and missionaries were complicit.

Arguably, it was the "North European Protestant" invention of capitalism that drove the colonial expansion from which Australia emerged, and to that extent it can reasonably be asserted that many of our national values derive from that source, although not in the ways that the current Christian lobbyists claim.

Also, LEGO ignores the hundreds of thousands of refugees currently seeking asylum in places like France, Italy and Greece, none of which is predominantly Protestant.

Yes, Christianity is undoubtedly a major factor in the formulation of Australian values, but only as part of the mix, and not always a positive influence.

Well said Morganzola.

If Christians want to take credit they must also acknowledge their failings.

Are Christians really the source of Oz values? Firstly, I suppose we have to define what those values are. I wonder how many of us know?
According to the booklet published by the Australian Government on,
"Becoming an Australian Citizen," they are listed as follows:

1) REspect for the equal worth, dignity and freedom of the individual.

2) Freedom of speech.

3) Freedom of religion and secular government.

4) Freedom of association.

5) Support of parliamentary democracy and the rule of law.

6) Equality under the law.

7) Equality of men and women.

8) Equality of opportunity.

9) Peacefulness.

10) Tolerance, mutual respect and compassion for those in need.

Sounds great doesn't it? Perhaps the reality, may be somewhat different - but they are great goals to aim for - there's no denying that. Now as for Christians being the source of these values? That may be debatable due to these vales being adapted and moulded and modernised through waves of settlement by people from all over the world which do include Judeo-Christian ethics, a British political heritage and the spirit of the European Enlightenment as well as distinct Irish and non-conformist attitudes and sentiments all of which had an influence on Australia's history and culture.

And as the booklet tells us: "The statement of values and principles should not be seen as a quest for conformity or a common set of beliefs. On the contrary, respect for the free-thinking individual and the right to be different are foundations of Australian democracy.
The goal here is to help new citizens understand the core values that have helped to create a society that is stable yet dynamic, cohesive yet diverse. They define and symbolise why so many people want to become Australians."

Leslie Cannold is wrong in her assertion that the Australian Christian Lobby claims Christianity is the source of Australian values.

We, like many commentators and historians, recognise that the Judeo-Christian ethic has had an overwhelmingly positive impact on the formation of our nation, just as it has on Western Civilisation.

It is unreasonable to try and write this out of our collective memory, as Ms Cannold seeks to do.

She is also wrong to imply that ACL wishes to discriminate against same-sex couples.

We supported the Rudd Government’s changes to 84 Commonwealth laws which even homosexual activists admit has removed discrimination.
Like the Prime Minister Julia Gillard, ACL does however believe that marriage between a man and a woman should not be re-defined.

For social, cultural and religious reasons, this is not unreasonable and it does not make us or the Prime Minister intolerant of homosexuality.

Instead we should be asking how tolerant is a minority lobby determined to redefine an institution for its own political agenda, when the institution has so much deep cultural, and in many cases religious, significance for so many.

Bloody hell! can someone please tell the Pope that Italy is a protestant state?

If that's the case, then, dare we ask what the Vatican is too?

And, forgive me for raising a nasty query, but if anyone goes to France, secular though it is, no one does a days work there because they celebrate saints days every week, just about, and, do correct me if I am wrong, in France it is not the protestant saints they celebrate but the Mick ones.

Then there is Protestant Poland, well known for producing the first protestant Pope eh?

Leslie is spot on.

It's a shame that our Baptist PM knows nothing of history, so immersed has she been in her Menzian vision of life and her Sunday School appreciation of the dangers of the Enlightenment that someone else has hit upon already.

Really, if Jim Wallace and Lyle Shelton, Pell and Jensen, Houston and Gillard are the Light on the Hill spruiking for the Lurv O'God then, thanks, but no thanks.

I hear the shrill cries of so-called Christians demanding a spot of reform amongst the Muslim world but isn't there just a small mote-in-the-eye in the Christian world that needs removing first?

Lexi,
Your outline of the Australian values comes with relationship - "Love [value] your neighbour and foreigner as yourself" and with a graceious attitude. These are values espoused by Christ. However not everyone claiming to be Christian has followed the spirit of his teachings.

Friction in society has come be misrepresentation and ignorance. She mentions -"Reason also cripples claims the church is responsible for values that Human Rights Commission research shows sections of it still don't support. As the Ad Hoc Interfaith Committee explains, the main tolerance many Christians thought deserved legal protection was their "lower tolerance" for homosexuality".

She identifies homosexual acts should be as accepted as equal. Homosexuality is an unnatural act and is not a person or culture. It is just recently that the British Health service will now accept blood from former person engaged in homosexual acts who have not had sex with another man in the last ten years. WHY? They are not an equal culture with the rest of society because they are more prone to diseases and viruses not because their genetics which cannot change but because of their chosen unnatural acts; which predisposes them to AIDS and HIV

The preoccupation of Jim Wallace and the Australian Christian lobby with homosexuality speaks volumes about the kind of narrow-minded, bigoted, mean-spirited, self-interested Christianity they espouse.

Despite all their remonstrances to the contrary, the ACL is a religious right-wing fundamentalist group with just as much interest in establishing a Christian theocracy in Australia as the American Christian nationalist groups it emulates.

The out-dated views of this unrepresentative board of self-elected, self-important dinosaurs also shows how out of touch the ACL is with the broad Australian community. A Nielsen poll last year showed a huge 20% gap between the 57% of Australians who support same-sex marriage and the 37% who don't. What gives the ACL the right to impose their 'values' on the majority of Australians who don't share them?

Wallace fudges that the ACL doesn't wish to discriminate against gay couples. Those of us who know our history remember that similar platitudes were offered by the fine Christians who opposed civil rights in America:

In Arkansas, a statement signed by eighty ministers explained the Church's view on integration:

"This statement is not made with any enmity or hatred in our hearts for the Negro race. We have an abiding love for all people . . . [But] ... We believe that integration is contrary to the will of God ... is based on a false theory of the 'universal fatherhood of God and the universal brotherhood of man.' We believe that integration is not only un-Christian, but that it violates all sound sociological principles and is not supported by Scripture or by biological facts."

‘Contrary to the will of God’, ‘un-Christian’, ‘not supported by Scripture or biological facts’. Doesn’t this all sound eerily familiar? (continued in next post).

(Continued from previous):

Don't believe a word of Jim's assurance that the ACL doesn't wish to discriminate against homosexuals. In February 2011, Wallace defended the right of religious schools to expel gay students for no other reason except for being gay.

And, in one of Jim Wallace’s latest tirades against the ‘homosexual lobby’, published in the Australian Wallace made the astounding claim that Christians are being oppressed by homosexuals.

According to Wallace, it is not Christians who seek to inhibit diversity and, through legislation, force all Australians to live in accordance with a particular set of moral values, but homosexuals. It is an argument of such arrogant audacity and heartless hubris that it left me physically ill and shaking with rage. (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/greens-are-attacking-religious-freedom/story-e6frg6zo-1226014944623)

Again, Jim's 'blame the victim' strategy has recognizable historical roots. It reminded me of a particular quote from another vocal supporter of Christian doctrine who was equally concerned about the inherent dangers of the 'unnatural':

“... Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” - Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Yes, just as poor old Hitler had to defend humanity against the oppression of the Jews, Jim has to defend Christians against the oppression of the homosexual lobby – and both invoke God as their witness.

It's time Australians woke up to this divisive, unrepresentative, viper which infests the halls of Australian politics. The ACL does not represent Australian values - Australians are much better than that. The ACL puts the greatest part of its corporate efforts into fighting for the right to discriminate against its fellow Australians and deny them basic rights like equality in marriage, equality in employment, the right to autonomy over their own bodies and women's reproductive rights. The ACL represents the very worst in us, and it works against Australians, not for them. Any government which panders to this group deserves to be sent into the political wilderness.

A timely article as "institutional" Christianity is under the spotlight like never before. Finally, people are starting to question the way so-called Christian values are coiled among the administration of the so-called secular state. The only kind of institution Christianity is these days is a dead institution, like monarchy. Certainly we should preserve the glorious churches and cathedrals; the bulk could be converted into museums and art galleries, Sunday Markets (as the ancient Abbey's of Europe used to be) and shelters for the homeless. A few could of course be retained in "authentic" order for scholars and antiquarians. Some which retained sufficient glebe land could be turned into theme parks for romantics and nostalgia buffs, complete with services, choristers and mock crucifictions. I would favour them remaining in public hands and the profits going to the public purse instead of the other way around for a change. Those who still profess the faith could assemble in the more modest and radical way that Jesus intended. Jesus has no doubt been cringing for the last two thousand years at the way his avant-garde ministry as been demeaned, commodified and institutionalised, so that far from being radical and critical of the state, it works in symbiosis with it to keep the masses in the mental Dark Ages and quelled.
For where I differ with the author is in this notion that "Australia is a wonderful country because of what good people of all faiths believed in and fought for".
What a shame to spoil such a sensible article with shameless hyperbole! Australia is surely more akin in its decadence to Pilate's Rome than Jesus' Judea?

In any event. Let Australia retain the church's fabric but excommunicate the institution. Privatise it! Let it pay its own way! User pays! These are the catch cries of the day are they not?
The most offensively ironic aspect of state sanctioned and funded Christianity is that most of its members are probably neoliberals! The bloody effrontery!!

“For social, cultural and religious reasons, this is not unreasonable and it does not make us or the Prime Minister intolerant of homosexuality.”

Pfft.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/christians-want-gays-banned-from-surrogacy/story-e6frfku9-1225828364852

http://gaydadsaustralia.com.au/category/foster-care/

How about we should be asking why we tolerate a Christian lobby determined to redefine an institution for its own political agenda. Or why, given our “collective memory”, Christian organisations are allowed the administration roles of children in Out Of Home Care.

"Shopping" asylum seekers are heading for those countries because their own countries have become dangerous basket cases - largely due to the historical actions of many of those same western democracies LEGO mentions. Those countries are also the relatively few co-signatories to the UN agreements that make this possible.

A century of our economic, political and military interference and betryal has contributed to this mess. If the region was know for its carrots and not for its oil this would never have happened.

I think that given the choice they would prefer to stay at home and be left to manage their own affairs without our interference.

Our nations values are based on personal self-interest, not some arcane sectarian system - just like all the others.

We've been through all this on the "West's history not complete without reference to Christianity" thread. When it comes to "Christianity" and "values", there are those among us who not only want to have their cake and eat it too, but lay claim to the entire sweet trolley at the same time.

"Oz values", dare I venture to suggest, have changed substantially over the years. Where it once was "King and Country" it is now... well, whatever ragbag of post-Facebook, post-Twitter, post-iPod, post-Playstation values you care to select from. The point being, you need to be specific about those values, before you can identify a potential source.

When asked what he thought had been the impact of the French Revolution, Zhou Enlai is supposed to have said "it is too soon to tell". In a couple of hundred years, we might be able to speculate on the impact of Christianity on Australian values, but today is a little premature.

What we can say, is that Christianity, in its various forms, has been the staple religion in Europe for a number of centuries. Unless you happened to be directly involved - like being tried as a witch, or burned at the stake by the Inquisition, or running for your life from a bunch of Micks (or Prods) who wanted to blow away your Prod (or Mick) kneecaps, or whatever - you pretty much took the whole thing for granted.

If one of the values we treasure is intolerance for others, particularly those who didn't worship their chosen God in exactly the same way as you, then yes, I'd have to agree that Christianity played a major part.

I would like to point out, though, that actually being a tolerant person does not mean that you are un-Christian. In fact, it is quite possible to show many personal traits, characteristics and values that you do not share with Christians, and still be a good person.

Or a bad one, come to that.

Mr. Wallace asserts that Ms. Cannold is wrong to claim the ACL claims that Christianity is the source of Australian values, yet fails to provide evidence for his assertion. Indeed, he seems to contradict his own assertion when follows by writing that the "Judeo-Christian [sic] ethic has had an overwhelmingly positive impact on the formation of our nation". Further, one may read on the ACL website itself the following claim: We [the ACL] believe that our success as a nation and a community to date, is largely due to our strong Christian heritage.

Granted, such claims are not strictly of Christianity being the source, but Mr. Wallace and the ACL both fail to mention what other sources could possibly have been of influence. Could it be that they dare not mention the Enlightenment, and the radical ideas it proposed? Ideas and values we take for granted as having always existed but which had to be fought long and hard for against the opposition of the Church; ideas and values the ACL claim as being Christian only because such values so thoroughly infuse our modern society that they must claim them their own; ideas and values they would quickly abandon if they achieved their goal of making Australia a truly Christian Nation. One need only peruse the website of the ACL to know what kind of Australia they desire.

I agree with Dr Cannold and other sceptics. Implicit in the claim that Christianity is the source of modern Australian values are the erroneous notions (1) that only religion can produce a system of morality and (2) that our present morals,mores and ethics are the result of Christian teachings.
I'd bet that modern Western morality derives in part from the rediscovery of pagan philosophical traditions, independent philosophical enquiry and innate values.
In fact, most progress in the West has been achieved despite religious oppression and bigotry.

The observation that Protestant majority nations have historically, produced more progressive societies doesn't, necessarily, demonstrate that "Protestant" nations are in fact "Christian" simply that dissent was tolerated in those societies.

So the answer to the question is, "No".

[Deleted for abuse.]

A quote from Mark Twain highlights the immoral stance taken by the ACL and conservative Christians in general. Twain was talking about slavery, but the comment is equally pertinent to homosexuality, euthenasia, the equality of women...the list goes on...
"There was no place in the land where the seeker could not find some small budding sign of pity for the slave. No place in all the land but one-- the pulpit. It yielded last; it always does. It fought a strong and stubborn fight, and then did what it always does, joined the procession-- at the tail end. Slavery fell. The slavery texts in the Bible remained; the practice changed; that was all."

An excellent quote, Neil. It puts me in mind of this one from Martin Luther King:

“I have traveled the length and breadth of Alabama, Mississippi and all the other southern states. On sweltering summer days and crisp autumn mornings I have looked at the South's beautiful churches with their lofty spires pointing heavenward. I have beheld the impressive outlines of her massive religious education buildings. Over and over I have found myself asking: "What kind of people worship here? Who is their God? Where were their voices when the lips of Governor Barnett dripped with words of interposition and nullification? Where were they when Governor Wallace gave a clarion call for defiance and hatred? Where were their voices of support when bruised and weary Negro men and women decided to rise from the dark dungeons of complacency to the bright hills of creative protest? Yes, these questions are still in my mind. In deep disappointment I have wept over the laxity of the church."

The church for which King weeps is the very same Baptist denomination to which Mr Wallace belongs. It appears that nothing has been learned from the past and Mr Wallace continues in the tradition of those who debase Christianity in order to shore up their own entrenched prejudices.

It seems Mr Wallace has created God in his own image.

[Deleted for abuse.]

[Deleted for abuse.]

"Like the Prime Minister Julia Gillard, ACL does however believe that marriage between a man and a woman should not be re-defined."

Posted by Jim Wallace, Australian Christian Lobby, Thursday, 21 April 2011 12:06:27 PM

No need to appeal to authority, Jim.

No need to be paranoid "marriage between a man and a woman" will be re-defined.

No need to be concerned marriage between a couple of gays will affect separate marriage between any man and any woman.

No need to claim seeking gay marriage is to seek a political agenda.

No need "to imply that ACL wishes to discriminate against same-sex couples." It just does.

Your last sentence makes category errors.

"According to the booklet published by the Australian Government -
"Becoming an Australian Citizen" - the values are listed as follows:

1) Respect for the equal worth, dignity and freedom of the individual.

2) Freedom of speech.

3) Freedom of religion and secular government.

4) Freedom of association.

5) Support of parliamentary democracy and the rule of law.

6) Equality under the law.

7) Equality of men and women.

8) Equality of opportunity.

9) Peacefulness.

10) Tolerance, mutual respect and compassion for those in need"."

Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 21 April 2011 10:15:31 AM

Special pleading for, or appeals to, Christian or Judeo-Christian "values" negates most of these.

Mark Twain's comment highlights the fact that Christianity, rather than underpinning modern Western values, has usually fought tooth and nail to prevent the acceptance of those values.

And just for the hell of it I thought I would post this quote from Mark Twain, simply because it is one of the best of all time.

During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800 years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.
Mark Twain - Bible Teaching and Religious Practice

Oooh, today's 457th Christian-bashing from the MSM.

And the predictable back-slapping comments from the usual suspects, who cherry pick the "Worst of" Christian history, while completely ignoring the "Greatest Hits".

Since the majority of post-colonised Australians have been Christian (and still are) how could this *not* influence our cultural development?
Never mind the previous centuries of Christianity in Britain and Europe before Captain Cook ever set foot here.

You guys talk a lot about liberty, and give credit only to the Enlightenment for this.

Personal liberty requires free will, which is an inherently Christian concept.
Adam and Eve could not eat the fruit unless God gave them Free Will.
Jesus' apostles and disciples could not accept him without Free Will.
Christians *must* in fact *choose* Jesus as their saviour.
Choice requires liberty.

Other faiths have contributed, um, zilch to our history.

As for your substitute god, Reason.

Reason led governments to think it was okay to sterilise or murder people considered mentally or physically defective.

Reason led governments to conduct drug and mind control experiments on soldiers (sometimes without their informed consent).

Reason led governemtns to make machine guns and atomic bombs. More efficient than rifles and swords.

How about a "Separation of Reason and State"?
Oh, we already have that.

[Deleted for abuse.]

Any serious student of history would conclude that the Judaeo-Christian religions are the source of Oz values. Sadly, it is the secularists who are doing their best to destroy those values.

Reason is obviously something that is beyond you, Shockadelic. Some of us will never accept the arrogant claim by Christians that their primitive belief system has some automatic right to control our moral behaviour.

@Shockadelic: Nobody said Christianity has had no influence. But, Australia has been subject to a host of influences including Enlightenment thinking, science, rationalism, spiritualism, atheism, Chartism and the religions and cultures of the various waves of non-Anglo-Celtic immigrants. Note, also, that the Christian influence has not always been positive. Just ask the Aborigines and residents of early Christian orphanages.

At the time of Australian settlement, the Enlightenment was in full swing. The Enlightenment was a reaction against a century of bloody and divisive religious wars. The intelligentsia of the 18th century (including Governor Phillip) largely embraced rationalism. Meanwhile, the convicts held religion and the clergy in disdain. Australia's first chaplain wrote that he was made to feel as if "neither God nor I was wanted at the founding of the new nation".

To say that other faiths have not contributed to Australia's history shows a woeful ignorance of Australian history. What about Aboriginal spirituality? What about the thousands of Chinese Buddhists who flocked to the goldfields? In 19th century Sydney, freethought and spiritualist meetings regularly attracted crowds of up to 3000 people. Indeed, one of our founding fathers and Australia's second prime minister, Alfred Deakin was a spiritualist.

Enforced sterilization, mind control experiments, and the development of the atomic bomb? The common denominator is America, the west's most religious nation. The people behind these projects were, generally speaking, good Christians just like you and Mr Wallace. America's sterilization program was widely supported by mainstream Presbyterian clergy. The head of the drug and mind control experiments, Sidney Gottlieb, pursued at various times, agnosticism, Christianity and Zen Buddhism. It is said of him that much of his life was a religious quest. CIA director, Allen Dulles, who authorised the project, was from a very religious family - the son of a Presbyterian minister and the grandson of a Presbyterian missionary in China.

And, finally, Australia has no legal or constitutional separation of church and state. The 1981 Defence of Government Schools ruling clarified this.

Might I suggest that before you post again you spend a little time checking your facts?

well there is no doubt that the more secularised we become the more violence, the more child molestation, more sexualisation of kids, more divorcce, more perversion,more pornography, more suicide, more drugs etc etc etc. Oh that's right as long as the standards for the SAS are lowered to allow women to pass the feminist are happy. Look at Jesus and then look at the secularist high priests and you can easily see why secularism produces putried fruit. Secularism is nothing short of self righteous god hating humans who are to blinded by their dogmas to see what they have produced.

@The Blue Cross wrote:
>>"Baptists believe in THE most extraordinary things, including the need >>to barcode everyone's foreheads, so God will know who is allowed to go >>to Heaven.
>>
>>Not that there is enough room there, even for all the Christians in >>the world, just 100k of the lucky blighters will make it."

err... no, they don't believe either of things. I'm not sure where you're getting your information.

It's incorrect to suggest that Christianity (or any other religion) alone provides us with our values or standards of morality. These things are are a social agreement made to suit their time.

For example, consider the current self-righteousness of fundamentalist America.

Many of its proponents may have ancestors who - only a few generations ago - kept slaves and further back may have burned the occasional witch or slaughtered Indian tribes. Different rules for different times.

These things were all sanctioned by religious interpretation at the time and perhaps in another generation or two, we may also be considered morally misguided by our own descendants.

Considering the current state of the world, they will probably be correct.

To Kenny

The “Enlightenment” was the product of North European Christians who rejected the concept of the Ptolemaic Universe and Papal Infallability. Many of the people which we today would be called “scientists” were Protestant clergy; even Darwin studied to be a Minister of the Church of England.

To Morganzola

Civilisation has always advanced upon the point of a sword. Stronger tribes have been taking the territories of weaker tribes since time immemorial, and that applies to aborigines, Maoris and Red Indians. Everybody did it, so please stop pretending that the white race is the prime offender. It is a rare country indeed which still contains its original inhabitants, and those are some of the most backward and barbaric on the planet anyway.

If Canada, the USA, New Zealand and Australia had not been occupied by the British, then some other European or Asian society would have done so eventually, and these countries today would be sheetfights. Look at North and South America. North America was settled by the British and today is two stable and prosperous countries, despite being infested by crime and welfare dependent prone ethnic groups who want to get into the good life created by white people.

South America was occupied by the Portuguese and the Spaniards, and it is now 50 different squabbling countries with near anarchic societies, with ineffectual governments and rampant corruption. My favourite war is the “Soccor War” which occurred between Nicaragua and El Salvadore over a disputed line call in the World Cup. These loonies were shelling and bombing each other over a football game. Do you call that a mature political mindset? It is a pity that the British did not take South America too.

"infested by crime and welfare dependent prone ethnic groups who want to get into the good life created by white people.

"South America was occupied by the Portuguese and the Spaniards, and it is now 50 different squabbling countries with near anarchic societies, with ineffectual governments and rampant corruption."

@ LEGO

You are bigoted towards Catholic Christians? You would like sectarianism?

I like the way LEGO refers to ethnic or indigenous societies as "barbaric"- as if modern Western war machines don't galumph around the planet dropping bombs and firing artillery every time they need a few more resources.

Ask the locals in the "newly democratised" regions of the world if the sight of their loved ones bring blown to bits and classified as "collateral damage" warms their hearts with the balm of religiously inspired love?

Barbarity against one's own species is a speciality of man, and is not confined to indigenous or ethnic people outside of the white European paradigm - it is a universal blight upon so-called human moral supremacy.

All the claims against Christ posted here are done in ignorance; as Christ never taught or practised of the things many accuse. He espoused the basis of how humanity was intended to cooperate. Those principle are eternal in the nature of God, as Christ expressed.

People have always been basically selfish and intolerant of others, and capable of murder from the time of Cain and Able. Bad behaviour is not a recent event and a culture that is called Christian does not mean all follow the teachings and behaviour of Christ. Many cultures after Christ adopted the Roman syncretised view of the Roman State culture and practise.

However in the background the Christ conscience and attitude is the epitime of any good society; where love, generosity, forgivness, acceptance etc is found. Christ accepted adulterers who quit their sin and they became loyal friends, as he does repentant murderers, and those who practise sexual perversions. God's kingdom does not allow these sins, but fallen humanity are prone to all of these sins.

The true enlightenment is founded on God conscience - how man and society was best to function and that principle of conscience was intended from the time of Adam. That Adam coverted fruit that was not his, that he tried to deceive to save face and blame someone else for the problem is typical of fallen man. There is only one faith that is relative and that was intended present from the first intelligent human and that is relationship intended by our creator God.

Chrys Stevenson

You have written what I have been thinking and clearly bears repeating:

>> To say that other faiths have not contributed to Australia's history shows a woeful ignorance of Australian history. What about Aboriginal spirituality? What about the thousands of Chinese Buddhists who flocked to the goldfields? In 19th century Sydney, freethought and spiritualist meetings regularly attracted crowds of up to 3000 people. Indeed, one of our founding fathers and Australia's second prime minister, Alfred Deakin was a spiritualist.

Enforced sterilization, mind control experiments, and the development of the atomic bomb? The common denominator is America, the west's most religious nation. The people behind these projects were, generally speaking, good Christians just like you and Mr Wallace. America's sterilization program was widely supported by mainstream Presbyterian clergy...<<

The arrogance that a single religion among the plethora and varitaion of religious thought should be the single influence on a nation's values leaves me speechless.

We are the product of a multitude of beliefs, philosophies, cultures and that mix is what makes us thrive. A monotheistic culture is sterile - like a garden without the variety of plants, animals, bacteria, fertiliser it dies.

Of course, those who believe their religion is the only right and proper one are incapable of looking any further than that, I feel sorry for them, however when they impose their beliefs on me I reject them, I would rather reach out to them, but their religion is an impenetrable wall.

“All the claims against Christ posted here are done in ignorance”. So that settles that, then. Well done Philo.

Later on you speak of Adam as if he and Eve were real. Given that just about all the world’s scientists who work in relevant fields, and the three major Christian religions, now accept that biological evolution is a fact, there can’t have been single pair of first parents who, from the moment of their birth (or creation), looked and reasoned like you and we do. So who do you mean by Adam?

And if, as you probably do, you believe that humans have souls but lesser creatures don’t, then what can you tell us about the first person in the evolving chain from lower forms to humans to have been equipped with one? It’s hard to get your head around the thought that there was a first person— a woman, presumably, though woman haters will no doubt dispute that—to have been assigned both a soul and a prospect (sentence?) of eternal life while her parents, playmates and, maybe, even siblings had neither. And did this first recipient of a soul know that she had one, and that thereafter the rules of the game of life would be dramatically different for her and her children? If not, might it have been a touch draconian to have punished her for breaking them?

Look, it really is easier and less complicated just to deny evolution, and other inconvenient facts, and go with Genesis. Eventually, that path even makes it possible for you to assert that all the claims against Christ posted are done in ignorance.

Like the gw alarmist GlenC now insists that evolution is fact. It is true that all who want funding or position must follow this totally illogical unproven dogma. No wonder secularist come up with such perverted morals and use 'science'to justify their actions. Baby killing is one such example. There are are however millions of scientist who know the evolution fantasy can't be proved and is fantasy. In fact all intelligent honest scientist reject the fairytale of evolution.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22722

Oh hullo, Mr Poirot.

You have just made a racist statement which accuses white western people of being warmongers who run around stealing other people's resources. It just goes to show that you are just as big a racist as I am.

I agree with George Orwell when he said that lefties can not even see the contradictions in their own arguments.

As for the idea that people rsent being liberated from tyrants, I note that you have a French avatar. Since 100,000 French civilians died under allied bombing, or during the military operations to eject the Nazi's, do you think it was preferable that France should have remained occupied by Germany rather than have civilian casualties?

On the subject of killing ones own, there are plenty of animals who do that. Newly minted alpha lions and gorrillas kill the recently born offspring of their defeated rivals, while chimpanzee troops engage with warfare against neighbouring troops to gain territory and young females.

What are our values? Lexi posted a list, which is a good starting place, but those are the values our government WANTS us to have - not necessarily those values that are dear to our hearts. How many Australians really exhibit all of these values? How many would like to think they [we] do, but don't really? Some of them are expressed in Christian writings - for example, St Thomas More's 'Utopia' - but do not necessarily have their roots in Christianity. To say that the Enlightenment is a product of Christianity, for example, is about the same as saying that the theory of relativity is a product of Judaism. It's the attribution of false causes - he was a Christian, he had a good idea, therefore his Christianity caused the good idea. It just doesn't wash.

When you look at the first whitefellas who came to Australia, were they really the archetypal 'good Christians'? Criminals and soldiers: I have my doubts. While the sense of social justice and egalitarianism that may be found in 21st Century Christianity may be reflected in these people, where do the irreverence, stoicism and suspicion of authority we like to think is 'Australian' come from? Not the church, that's for sure.

I'm a happy Catholic, and believe strongly in my religion. I'm also Australian, and believe strongly that Australia is a great place to live and stands for something great. That doesn't mean that I believe the two are connected, or that the Catholic Church should have any influence over Australia as a secular society. Let Christianity influence Christians, and let the interests of broader society influence broader society.

LEGO,

White Western people "are" warmongers who run around stealing other people's resources.

All human beings are belligerent when it serves their purposes to be so.
Paradoxically, however, our species is also capable of great acts of amity and reverence.

As for gorillas killing the offspring of their defeated rivals and the warring nature of chimpanzees - yes, all beings of simian nature are tribal - what is your point?

[Deleted for abuse.]

Cutting out all tax-concessions and grants to those hypocrites who claim holiness by holding religious or charitable banners and than we can talk sensibly.

So far I have never seen a religion but I have seen many scoundrels who make a fat living out of religions and charitable joints

You have a very good point there, Philo.

>>All the claims against Christ posted here are done in ignorance; as Christ never taught or practised of the things many accuse... Bad behaviour is not a recent event and a culture that is called Christian does not mean all follow the teachings and behaviour of Christ<<

That does however bring into sharp relief, the claim that his teachings had a beneficial effect on society. There must be very few, I suspect, who could equate their personal behaviour to that of Christ. After all, we all sin, do we not?

If the claim was "is Sin really the source of Oz values", I think it would, on this basis alone, be much closer to the truth. As you yourself point out, Christians don't "all follow the teachings and behaviour of Christ".

So how could their religion, if they don't actually adhere to it, have any special impact on our collective "values"?

@The Blue Cross

You seem to be referring to pre-tribulation pre-millenialist eschatology (as exemplified in the 'Left Behind' series), but while many Baptists no doubt hold to that, not all do, and it's actually more prevalent in pentecostal circles - and in any case, I've never come across a Baptist statement of beliefs or confession etc that specifies that one must hold such an eschatological view. Further, even within the hard-core 'left-behinders' I've never seen the number 100k mentioned. I may have been brought up in a baptist church, but I don't hold to that eschatology - I'm not defending it, but rather puzzled at your representation of it. But then again, from the tone of your posts, I'm not so sure that accuracy is as important as rhetoric. And as you say, it's not the point (though you did bring it up).

Runner, Philo, Jim Wallace and your mates, what went wrong in your life to have such an extreme antisocial outlook on life.
There is so much venom in your postings towards others,that are not of the extreme religous belief as yourselves,can only indicate that you have issues in your lives that you carry; and it would appear you are feared to address and rid yourselves of them.
Hitler tried to inpose his beliefs on others, and he ended up very, very unhappy!!

Runner, Philo and Jim Wallace you are aware that Jesus Christ had two fathers!
There was this bloke named God upstairs and Joseph downstairs, and you lot think Homosexulity is an abomination!

Glen C,
Genetics demonstrates all humanity came from one single gene pool originating in Africa as humans do not fertilize or breed from other claimed near ancestors. There was only one set of human parents from which all humanity has since descended.
The ancient Northern Chinese upheld these Biblical stories from Adam to Noah in their ancient characters as they tell these stories. These Chinese records go back about 5,000 years and were the basis of their philosophic society, given by the Lord of Heaven.
http://cm.dce.harvard.edu/1999/01/83101/L02/seg1/index_FlashSingleHighBandwidth.html

Hebrew writings only go back about 3,700 years pre this time theirs was oral history.
All living creatures are souls transient in a body of flesh [the flesh body is constantly being renewed] living creatures do not “have souls” implying the body is the essential being, they are souls. You are a soul, in a body of cells that is constantly dying and being renewed. The difference between humans and animals is humans have a spiritual dimension - the ability to appreciate abstract ideas and moral behaviour by enlightened conscience; and the ability to manage environment to govern and change the world. The Hebrews viewed this difference as the very breath of God [spirit of God] identifying man in the likeness of God, while the Greeks identified that difference as spirit, identifying man as a tripart being

Some comments posted do not deserve an answer as the spirit behind these comments exposes the true person.

The belief in the return of Christ is far more believable than the eschatological beliefs of those claiming to have science as their backing. Thankfully every biblical prophecy has shown itself to be accurate. Secular High Priests such as Gore and Flannery would of been stoned many times had they been held to account for 'the science is settled brigade'. Instead secularist swallow every 'new'idiotic prediction and make movies like 9/11 and other rubbish which brainwash kids and give leftist teachers a propganda tool to indoctrinate their kids with failed dogma. The corrupt nature of mankind justifies all sorts of abomination which is coverered by pseudo science. Usually the most immoral are those who push this new age stinking thinking.

"The corrupt nature of mankind justifies all sorts of abomination which is coverered by pseudo science. Usually the most immoral are those who push this new age stinking thinking."
Posted by runner, Friday, 22 April 2011 8:38:17 PM

You are right. Wonder who was thinking that 2,000 odd years ago when there were also sorts of new pseudo-scientific abdominations ....

runner,

"....new age stinking thinking."...I kinda like that one.
And I'm always gratified when you manage to include an "abomination" amongst the other treasures in your diatribes (this time we got a stoning as well!)

Keep on posting runner. You do more than all the rest of us combined to prove our point.

Genetics demonstrates no such thing, Philo. Though you do not go into detail, one presumes you are referring to mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosome Adam. These two individuals were neither contemporaries nor the only human beings alive at their respective times. To suggest that the genetic evidence demonstrates what you claim is to grossly misunderstand the science.

And one does wonder what the point of directing the reader to the video regarding China. Interesting though it is, it offers no support to your claim of Chinese origin stories upholding or verifying the Jewish origin stories. Indeed, the flood story presented in the video demonstrates just how different the two traditions are.

In short, both of your assertions are errant nonsense.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22722

Posted by runner, Friday, 22 April 2011 11:02:18 AM

That article proposes "Evolutionists must claim that some mutations are helpful because basically, all evolution rests upon that premise."

Evolution - the change *over time* in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms - largely relies on natural selection per se*, genetic drift, genetic recombination (during sexual reproduction), and a few other mechanisms, including mutation, but Not the straw-man red-herring fallacy the article puts forward ... viz.
* natural selection manipulating mutations so as to produce a new gene, hormone, enzyme system or organ.”

runner, you follow all the wrong leads

I used to be a serious student of history, and of church history in partticular. But that was long ago.

What was apparent then was that the early church had several sources of its values, and in particular drew heavily on the work of the neo-Platonists. The New Testament was not enough, for 1. the various books are not consistent in their approaches to morality; 2. the moral issues that were faced could not be answered ;by the bible alone; 3. the interpretation of the bible required in order to apply its various partially conflicting values needed a system of reasoning which the bible does not provide.

Later, when the works of Aristotle were re-introduced to the West by the Arabs (who were Moslems--yes, Islamic writing contributed heavily to Christian moralities) St Thomas Aquinas made a major contribution developed from Aristotle's Ethics. He needed to do so, because Aristotle's views challenged the neo-Platonic foundations of Church thinking at the time. His approach is still that of Catholic orthodoxy--one set of Christian values. Yes, there is more than one.

The values of the Gospel According to St Luke are well worth reflecting on. When people extoll Christ's own values, they are usually what they have in mind. Those of the Book of Revelation are vile. The Pauline writings are a mixed bag--there are many moral mistakes.

Stephen Moore,
So you believe that humans had many origins. Could you please give us the details?

Stephen Moore,
The point I was making is that the values that Christians should uphold are the inherent values [moral principles of God likeness] from the relationship of the first family or society. Theift, lies, deceit and murder were all present from the earliest man and records showed the moral displeasure of God [In Chinese history from the Lord of Heaven].

I thought LEGO's comment pathetic. In fact exclusivity and exclusion are a knife driven into the very heart of positive Christianity, not that this trait is exclusive of Christianity or Christians.
But true Christianity embraces universal and shared human values and experience, which is why Christ is loved and respected both inside and outside of Christianity, as someone like Rabbi Akiva is mourned and revered by those who take the time to find out about the heroes and heroines of other faiths.
Wallace, as usual, muddies the waters and his comments ought to be dismissed as scurrilous. He makes a good Caiphas.
We are inheritors of the world's values, as are all humans and Christianity remains the powerful input that it is into Australian values only so long as its real truths are not excluded by excluding or exceptionalist perversions, that allow for "othering" and eventually deterioration to exploitation or oppression of "unworthy others".
We were lucky yet remain ungreatful to be given a book of life that rather we should humbly celebrate, along with releif that we were not excluded from access to an explanation of ourselves as withthe devotees of the Talmud, Koran or other books of life,in our abject unworthiness.These appear to be as good explanations as our own, given that other peole are also loving conscious ethical beings indistinguishable from us. These explain values and meaning to oncoming generations within diverse communities, although my theory is that invented many religin and philophies, because (s)he knew we would be too immature to share just one version.
Despite human interference, God's will may yet be done, as the Good Samaritan Story explains.

oz value..[now there is a joke]
xtians cant even get the rule number one clear
[putting no 'god'..before god
to wit..the father..not the son]

it cant get through its creed
that jesus didnt* die
thus couldnt have died for us to sin

he died..or he didnt die
but lets look at the possable teaching of him dying

he died in the flesh
but his spirit returned
[to prove there is no common reserction day]

ie we die..[in our material body]
and are reborn in spirit..[in our soul body][astral body]

its not complicated..but religeons need to make it complicated
just as poli-tricks..make governing via spin look trickey

[lawyers making laws for other lawyers
financiers making gifts to other rich]
the bankers stealing the fed reserve bank as well as the mint

yeah they got that direct out of the xtian deciets
[who not only stole gods giving us all our life
but took god away..gasve us a christ..a trinity no less

we got a pope..who cant explain
to a child why bad things hapen to kids
[thats not god son..thats satanists]..this world belongs to satan
[it is betweixt and between heaven and hell]

to get here you must first have rejected
gods love..gods grace..gods mercy..have rejected heaven
now must chose by our works wether we earned hell or heaven

its not complicated..god dont judge us
our deeds do..the good we CHOSE to not do
or the bad things we chose to do

god is all loving
[if its not of love
its not of good..]
and so its not..*of god

[good/god..get it?]

why did god bring the sunamie?

*god didnt!

god sustains ALL LIFE our living
no god..no life..its as simple as that

no xtains are serving satan
but they realise it not

those serving god
serve to the good

if its not good
its not of/for/from.. god*

govt serves the money-changers[demons]
religeons serve demons..we all* live on through eternity
wether your baptist budist swedish or jew...[lib/lab or green]

we die here
live on there

why arnt we talking about jesus resection?

I watched a DVD some time ago that identified the links of the Chinese pictographs with the historical stories of Genesis 3 - 9 and including the sacrifices to the Lord of heaven. There has also bee books written on the subject by Chinese authors. Their society was founded on principles of love, self sacrifice and integrity etc.

http://www.harpercollins.com/books/Finding-God-Ancient-China/?isbn=9780310292388

Neil of Ipswich "Some of us will never accept the arrogant claim by Christians that their primitive belief system has some automatic right to control our moral behaviour."

I never made such a claim.
The claim was that Christianity was a *principal* influence in the development of Australia.
Do you refute this? And remember "Australia" is continuation of European culture, Christian for many centuries before settlement here.

Chrys Stevenson "Australia has been subject to a host of influences."

Christianity is a *fundamental* influence.
Please explain how Hinduism, Islam or Buddhism has played a *fundamental* role in Australia?

"The intelligentsia of the 18th century (including Governor Phillip) largely embraced rationalism."

The Enlightenment and its adherents are not inherently *opposed* to religion as today's militant atheists would like us to believe.
Many leading scientists and thinkers were Christian, and few were overtly atheist.

"To say that other faiths have not contributed to Australia's history shows a woeful ignorance of Australian history."

To claim they were *significant*, rather than peripheral, is woefully ignorant.

"What about Aboriginal spirituality?"

Ignored.

"What about the thousands of Chinese Buddhists who flocked to the goldfields?"

Despised.

"spiritualist meetings regularly attracted crowds"

Spiritualists are not necessarily non-Christian.
Again, a peripheral element.

"Enforced sterilization, mind control experiments, and the development of the atomic bomb? The common denominator is America"

Morally questionable "rational" actions by government were not restricted to America.
Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were essentially atheistic (Russia *officially* so) and looked what happened.

"The people behind these projects were, generally speaking, good Christians just like you."

Why do presume anyone who defends Christianity in any way must themselves be Christian?

"And, finally, Australia has no legal or constitutional separation of church and state."

There is no constitutional right to free speech either.
There are principles in our society so inherent and commonly accepted that official statements aren't necessary.
Does there need to be an explicit "right to drink milk" written down somewhere?

"Might I suggest that before you post again you spend a little time checking your facts?"

Might I suggest you stop thinking you're clever?

shockers shocking quote

""What about Aboriginal spirituality?"

Ignored.

"What about the thousands of Chinese Buddhists who flocked to the goldfields?"

Despised.""

these are rather simplistic diss-misives
[that are so easy to assosiate with xtian-believer's]

everything falls into the good/bad division
jesus is god[no he isnt]
jesus died for our sins[no he didnt]

your either a sheep..[withus]
or a goat..

your either usefull[to us]..wheat...
or tares..deserving to be ripped up by the root at harvest time
or murderd/mutated by plutonium tipped bombs..[made in the xtian heartlands of usa]

there is said there shall come the anti-christ
[if jesus himself returned..[and why would he]..
he would be labled the anti=christian..[messianic insanity]

the trouble is this concept of 'the chosen ones'

the jews got it big..[they 'alone' are the lords people]..[lol]
[who lives..but by god giving them 'life'.. to live]

and as for the xtians...only 'jesus'
can save us from hell

yet he revealed..its in our works..
[by our deeds will we be known]

he informed even an athiestic thief on the cross besides him..
he would this day be in heaven..[as we all..*soon shall be]

he came back from 'death'
revealing man..
[for such was jesus..pure man]..
huh?-man..is eternal spirit
encased within corruptable flesh..

the flesh dies..but the energy
that is 'within man'..lives on..

jesus came to unite the fathers/house
not create a new religeon

he returned to the fathers/house
[to build us a room in it..

well it seems even jesus [peace be upon him]..
even his 'house'..is now..as divided now as the fathers
seems he will be building MANY rooms..for his divided sheeple
[flock]

[i dont think i spelled that right]

bah no wonder the oz dream has become a nightmare
its built on the foot=ings of those with feet of clay
and hearts of stone..[where the grace/mercy/compassion]

Kipp,
Your statement of accusation indicates your ignorance of Christianity.

You said, "Runner, Philo and Jim Wallace you are aware that Jesus Christ had two fathers!
There was this bloke named God upstairs and Joseph downstairs, and you lot think Homosexulity is an abomination!"

The fact is father refers to two different references of reality. Jesus said of his accusers "You say Abraham is your father" meaning a descendent of the flesh of Abraham assuming Abraham's nationalist/ family favour with God for Israel "But I say, you are fathered by one who opposes God" meaning the father of their spirit and behaviour was opposed to God. Abraham's favour with God was based in his attitudes and actions not in his genetics. Unless his offspring actually followed Abraham's faith and attitudes they had no favour with God.

Christians call God father because they seek to follow his atitudes and examples of love.

Kipp,
The fact that some men prefer to deposit their fertile sperm into the dung hole of another man indicates their value of their offspring and their view of themselves and their future. I do not have to say they are involved in abominale practises - they know it themselves.

While it is true that people of many faiths, and of no-faith, have contributed to Australia's development, there is no doubt that Christians have made very significant contributions to that development.

The website, "A tribute to Influential Australian Christians", http://atributetoaustralianchristians.wordpress.com/
currently lists 251 notable Australian Christians who have been involved in all forms of endeavor to create this nation, in which we are so privileged to live.

Christianity - not for the humble and modest.

whatever spirit or beliefs founded australia
they were immutably alterd when john how-hard adopted the business cycle called 24/7...[thus forever sepperating the sabbath from the man]

sabbat if you recall was the time
that man accorded back..to his creater
[sabbat rests the god in us]

this might seem a simple thing to many athiests
but working 7 days a week...kills the good..[god].. in us all
and you can name howard as its creator

[talk about works [faith]..by the lips]
even xtians only honour god[good]..with their talk
by their hate they reveal they are far from him..[and delight in taking others away from him too...work you serfs]

the rise of athism only confirms..
the scam of liberal [24/7]..big business has worked

every small business now has become a collecter of tax..ever more taxes for what?

oz values is a joke
now we got a ju-liar baptist..[athiest]
with her beer bum..on the throne

[who calls a koala..a koala bear]..
while working on good friday..[and eating beef]

there is no end to it...
we got a brit pope..and an italian pope
yet still live in a common-wealth..without health and hope

the poor..let them work for their rent
and if your a big miner..make the serfs live in a tent

yes i know im raving..but collectivly
were living in a world gone nuts...and then we get a dumb question

''Are Christians really the source of Oz values?''
i say what values[give credit where cedit is jew?]
or cast blame where blame is over due?

values
what values?

a half days pay
for a fair days work?

hit a man when he is down..tax him to death
fill his spare time with guilt blame and shame

thats ozzie value
xtiand...lord give me a beak
they cant even get it together..with other xtians
let alone be a guiding light in this..[satans world]

Happy Easter Peoples!

El Maseeh Qam.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11924#204569

LEGO, absolutely correct. Furthermore if you look back into our history, in Britain, Europe, North America, our forefathers were not struggling for freedom of religion at all, but freedom of Christianity. That is what the "Protestant Christian" movement was all about, being free of corruption in the Anglican, Catholic churches & UN democratic government.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11924#204574

Kenny, "the enlightenment" was indeed 100% "Protestant Christianity". Left wing politics was invented later by the Pope as a Counter Revolutionary" strategy to "divide & conquer" it, into a standstill.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11924#204575

morganzola, perhaps you prefer Communism, "religion is the opiate of the masses", have faith in the gospel according to Karl Marx & idolise the "dear leader".

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11924#204580

Ammonite, & while the RED/green, getup, GAYLP, Socialist Alliance tries to take credit for modern, western, christian, democracy are they going to take credit for the millions killed by left wing politics. 6 million Jews in WW2 alone.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11924#204602

Jim, you are mostly correct but under playing it, Moderate, Protestant, Christianity is the source of everything we hold dear.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11924#204604

The Blue Cross, are you a Catholic?

Yes some European countries are predominantly Catholic, but the fact remains "the enlightenment" was a "Protestant Christian" movement against corruption in both the Anglican & Catholic churches as they were then.

BTW, i am not Catholic, but i would be first in line to suggest that continuing attacks on the Catholic church about past problems, are unwarranted & just part of the continuing Communist Jihad against all religions other than Communism.

Western Christianity has largely adapted to the liberal democratic context.Even conservative incarnations can be more liberal than conservative movements of other religions.

And yet there are elements of Christian, Judaic and Islamic teaching that remain illiberal. Sometimes this is resolved through reform of doctrine; at other times conservative elements argue that scripture should not be radically reinterpreted to adapt to modern secular liberalism.

But what are secular liberal democracies based on? Freedom of association and pluralism means churches, social movements, political movements - should be able to maintain and profess their own tenets and doctrines, and govern their own communities. So long as members are not placed under duress; are free to come and go as they please; are supported by a broader social structure which EMPOWERS them as individuals to move between any of the many religious, cultural and political communities in a pluralist liberal democracy. (perhaps with socialist elements; lest material deprivation act as duress)

But again: assuming this voluntary associations should be able to maintain their own doctrines, culture, structures. Even as a liberal and a socialist I appreciate the dilemma faced by liberal Christians, Jews and Muslims when faced with scripture at odds with modern liberal/secular values; often at odds with my own secular convictions. But to FORCE what is perceived as liberalism upon *voluntary* associations, and where appropritate measures are taken by the state to alleviate cultural or material duress - That is - ironically - an abrogation of the tenets of liberal pluralism itself.

What I'm suggesting is fine so long as there remains clear separation between church and state: so as a citizen I can enjoy my full rights and participate fully in society; and only VOLUNTARY ASSOCIATIONS are able to discriminate where it is a matter of doctrine fundamental to identity, tradition, faith...

If some voluntary religious associations wish to discriminate against women, and others choose to discriminate against men - liberal pluralism holds this is a choice for those voluntary associations to make for themselves - so long as the state provides an underlying regime that minimises economic and cultural duress....

nb: Where this position I've given on voluntary associations does not hold is where there is arbitarary discrimination in otherwise secular bodies; And this could provide a rationale for affirmative action for instance. (in the labour market, quotas for business, quotas for the executive wing of government etc) What makes it acceptable for some voluntary associations to discriminate is only a broad socio-economic context which empowers all citizens - and gives citizens a choice... (backed by liberal rights, social support networks, and economic security) But wealth, for instance, is a source of POWER in secular society.... We have no choice to avoid the power of wealth; so with prevention of the abuse of that power - the power of wealth - the same conditions of voluntary association do not apply... (ie: whether that abuse occurs in the context of systematic and ultimately oppressive discrimination)

anyhow...its the day jesus was resercted
but you wouldnt know it by tv[thus i blog]

the war machine has won this round of easter pr/spin

wars dominated the news..
the real reason of this day barely raised a mention..
but it was finally the satanist tv..cop and murder shows
[and war mongering spin..that woke me from my slumbers

but also the upcomming nuptuals of the future pope william
and kate..[who has subverted his own messiahs day..by poor planning of his upcomming nuptuals..[bombarding hard core..the current news cycle..that should be focused on the holy christ

who died for us to sin
and who returned to tell us the lie of reserction 'day'
[thus the lie of judgment day...but war mongering is more news worthy

SOOOO

lets get back to the joke of xtian values
anyone seriously studying the formation of austra-lazier.,.would know
that the context for colonisation into oz...

was a direct result of the defeat of the british forces in usa..[the brit war mongering colonisation...war machine men

further that prisoners
under armed guard [by the military]
were the 'convict root' of this racist/state..*down under

is it xtian values
to kill off the native population with smallpox
[as was done by sir..[lol] joseph banks..

the great proponant
of terra nullious[empty land]..
his mission was predominantly to deliver the small pox
[as taught him in new found land
[under lord jeffry amhurst]
..founder of modern biological warfare

one need read no further
than govener philips first commision[12 oct 1786]
page one

'..to follow orders and directions'..
'according to the rules and diciplines of war'..

because..[page 4]

''it belongeth to us
in right of our royal perogative
to have custody of idiots and their estates
and take the proffit thereof to our own use..

finding them nessisties..

..and to provide for custody of lunatics""

on reservations..
seggregating the fools
sorry idiots/lunatics..on islands and in town camps

like in current day palistein
another colonial suck-sess SS-tory

If people cannot show consideration and sensitivity to Christians on this day of all days... :(

What makes Christians different than other communities whose dignity and rights we have defended in the name of pluralism and liberty and so on?

Why this hatred by some for Jesus Christ - who as he died on the cross - said literally - and from his heart 'forgive them not they know no what they do?'.

"forgive them not they know no what they do?"
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Sunday, 24 April 2011 9:47:04 PM

Interestingly, this phrase is missing from the earliest Bibles discovered so far: 'codex Sinaiticus' and 'codex Vaticanus' written in the 4th century.

Also missing from them is Mar 16:9-20, the post-resurrection account in the gospel considered to be the fore-runner to the others; and the story of the stoning of the adulterous woman – "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" .

link for the previous post

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/the-big-question-what-is-the-codex-sinaiticus-and-what-does-it-reveal-about-the-bible-1734439.html

"day of all days"

hardly a defined "day" at all, is it?. Varies over a month. Dependent upon the timing of the full moon.

Like pagan spring planting traditions, I would suggest.

When you steal a car, at least give it a fresh spray job and change the number plates before trying to sell it back to the owner.

Similarly, "easter" is so obviously a whitewash of pre-existing spring festivals as to be tragic.

"Christianity" is no longer deserving of respect on *any* day. Adherents do not oppose those who are vile provided these profess the cheapest veneer of affiliation.

Indulgences, anyone? Phelps? Christians need to oust a few parasites from their own camp, and protect their "brand" rather than extend it unpoliced to shonky franchisees.

Rusty

Perhaps others views about ourselves are the most revealing.

This comment made to Journalist David Aikman in 2002 by a professor from the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences to a group of American visitors about his years of study in the West:

"One of the things we were asked to look into was what accounted for the success, in fact, the pre-eminence of the West over all the world. We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective. At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had. Then we thought it was because you had the best political system. Next we focused on your economic system. But in the past twenty years, we have realized that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. The moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don't have any doubt about this."

It is a crying shame that more secularists don't acknolwedge this truth.

Jim Wallace,

You hold up capitalism as if it's not some avaricious, insatiable and unsustainable system upon which the more fortunate among the world's population overindulge themselves at the expense of the planet.

Somehow, I don't think it's what Jesus had in mind at all.

If Christianity is not so influential on our culutre, perhaps Leslie would like to explain that to Melbourne literary critic Peter Craven,, who when asked yesterday to comment on the popularity of the a new print of the 400-year-old King James Version of the bible said it: "was rivalled only by Shakespeare for its influence on the English language". Language - a rather important aspect of culture!

Sorry to let fact ruin a good beat up again.

I don't doubt that the "christians" who invaded Greece long ago had a profound influence on our culture now.

Did "christianity" endorse democracy, organised medicine, the university, free speech and free enguiry, religious tolerance, and many other pillars of our and other somewhat enduring civilisations? when these ideas were new?

Or did "the church" only take them on when others had shown them to be indispensibly good, and a reason to leave if the church did not.

The expediential conflation of christianity with all things good, when so many of the biggest and most important of these were developed by others is odd, if not downright dishonest. Good marketing to adopt the good ideas of others, of course, but not admirable to claim them as your own.

Other organising institutions could have adopted the same ideas.

Ray Kroc whitewashes his own actions in the early history of McDonalds, I am not obliged to accept his version of events.

Similarly, "christianity" has held a preeminent position in our history, having exerted the greatest of chicanery, violence, intolerance, vile torture and standover tactics, propaganda and conditioning to achieve it. I think the strong influence of "the church" owes a lot more to the malevolent intolerance of it's zealots than to it's unique contribution to our culture.

Smallpox, bubonic plague, malaria and measles *also* had a large role in our political, military, cultural and economic history. I would not weep if these too disappeared without trace.

Rusty

Yes Leslie, I want Australia to have more public holidays, like Singapore: lets all have days off work for Deepvali, the birthday of the Buddha, the end of Ramadan, and the "Sweeping of the tombs" day, as well as for Easter and Christmas: it doesn't do Singapore's economy any harm.
The "Christian" values Australia was founded on: snobbery (Rum corps giving themselves the biggest land grants and trying to set themselves up as a colonial upper class); warfare and racism against Aboriginal people and later Chinese (Lambing Flat); sectarianism and prejudice, with Anglicans trying to set themselves up as a state religion to discriminate against Catholics and non-conformists.
Today Australia has a better more tolerant society due to people like the colonial Governors Bourke (who gave Catholics and non-conformists, not just Anglicans, money to build churches), and Macquarie, who favoured emancipists for land grants, and the emancipist Dr. Redfern of Campbelltown, who travelled to England to successfully appeal direct to the Colonial authorities to alter discriminatory colonial laws preventing emancipists from receiving large land grants.
While church missions may have done good work protecting Aboriginal people from slaughter, many missions also tried to destroy Aboriginal culture and languages; and church opposition to a secular public education system prevented Governor Bourke from setting one up in the 1830s (we had to wait till the 1860s).

mcreal quote""Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

i thought it was
'not cast the first stone'
[no death honours god..the only life-giver]

for me the biggest guide to being xtian is letting the tares and wheat grow in peace[till harvest]..till death...

ie not casting slurs
not judging others that we be not judged
by the same hurtfull measure....

[jesus tried to love others
i think any xtian that dosnt at least try
to love others..is fooling only themself..certainly not doing as we saw him doing..[ie doing that [love]..he saw our father do]

thanks for the link
''Interestingly,this phrase is missing from the earliest Bibles discovered so far:'codex Sinaiticus' and 'codex Vaticanus'""

its hard to get to what jesus actually said
but it seems so much has been corrupted
most obviously a judgmental good [god..with grace and mercy]

yet read the fear..throughout the whole text's..
[god is love..live with it]..know thy masters voice[is love]

we must get to know our personal saving
[the good still loving voice of god/within..]

that voice that says forgive them they know not what they do
nor what they say...

[know we are eternal spirits...cast down from heaven..]
that from heaven we come..and to heaven we ALL return..[eventually]

we are eternal spirit
having..[serving out] a life sentance
sentanance[em-body]..mortal flesh..but spirit we are
and to spirit we shall return

let it be done on earth as in heaven
not drag heaven down to earth

earth is for those too good to live in hell
but not good enough yet..to dwell in heaven

the key is atonement..[at one meant]

emmanuel..[god with in us all]
that we do to the least
we did..to god

Geez, Jim, I'd love to give you a run down on how Christianity was not the primary influence on Australian politics, national identity or culture but I'm afraid you're just going to have to be patient and wait for the book.

In the meantime, this may whet your appetite:

http://networkedblogs.com/h0rN6 (My chapter starts at page 9).

I've really enjoyed my research on the myriad links between the ACL and America's Christian nationalist and reconstructionist movements. Most illuminating. It will make a very interesting early chapter on why your 'David Barton'-like insistence on re-envisioning our history through Christian rose-coloured glasses is firmly linked to a theocratic agenda - despite your protestations to the contrary.

Oh - direct link to The Australian Book of Atheism: http://books.google.com/books?id=nXrJS7aOM3wC&printsec=frontcover&dq=australian+book+of+atheism&hl=en&ei=Dbq0Ta72F5HOvQOd3OiVBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CGkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'd be interested if anyone had a response re: my earlier arguments about liberal pluralism and voluntary association...

Just that I *think* this article is arguing for a kind of interference in voluntary associations that I'm not really comfortable with, and I'd be interested what others thought...

The local bikies and the local skinheads have "free association" and beyond that can hire and fire who they like in their business dealings as well as refusing entree to people they just plain don't like.

They don't much claim tax-exempt status.

To the extent that a church contributor pays tax on what he donates, or the church itself does on money it makes through investments, by all means let the church apply a religious test to how that is spent.

To the extent the church claims tax-exempt status on all monies collected (extended to being a deduction for the contributor, no less) and *claims* that this is for charity work, let it be under the rules of discrimination applied to other public effort, or other charities like Rotary or Lions, who most certainly may not apply a religious or religiously inspired test to their hirelings. Let such tax-exempt monies be audited in a manner accessible to the community at large.

Hmmmmm?

Rusty

And for anyone who missed it, here's Jim Wallace on twitter exploiting the history of the ANZACS for his own bigoted, homophobic ends.

From: @JimWallaceACL
Just hope that as we remember Servicemen and women today we remember the Australia they fought for - wasn't gay marriage and Islamic!
1 hour ago

Fortunately, real Australians understand what ANZAC Day is for and have responded appropriately. I've posted many of the responses on my blog.

http://thatsmyphilosophy.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/anzac-day-cheapshot-from-religious-extremist/

Jim Wallace,

The significant factor in the West's pre-eminence is not really 'Christianity' but Protestant Christianity which undermined Catholic universalism.

It's certainly no coincidence that progress towards democracy and industrialization accelerated in the Protestant nations of NE Europe.
Protestantism encouraged independence of thought and the questioning of ancient doctrines which eventually led to the Enlightenment and scepticism in regard to all religion.

So, we could say that Protestant Christians unwittingly started the process that created the modern secular state, however there's no justification to the claim that Christianity is the source of modern Australian values.

After all their work, the Chinese scholars still don't understand.

one really needs to be concerned about xtian values
[having just sat through the glorification of that most gory

to wit the anzac's that murder
parading up and down the main steets of every trown and city
and a dawn service of those in the darkness..

[failing to see the gory of war...
we will remember them;..being dead..
not remember the risen christ...who proved
even the least amoung us conquer's..* death

[death where is thy sting?]

we need wonder at what values glory war's gore..
the day after..the re-birth/reserction..non death..of the peacemaker

look at the time's..we sit watching old men
who were the 'luckey' few..who didnt die
when their govt sent them to die..
in futile wars

there is seemingly no end to these wars
revealing the joke of xtian values

lest we forget to remember

where was the real time [live]..coverage
of mankinds messiah's death
and survival over death?

where the parades glorying in the deeds
of xtians and buddists and muslims..to the greater glory of peace
to the greater glory of the one true god..sustaining even the war mongers their living?

why are you missing the big picture
no sooner has the 'peace maker' resercted
than the warmongers glory in the deaths by their wars

we talk of the fallen
but what of the lost poor outcast and forgotten
what of peace..where the glory..where the value of death meaning dead

am i the only one remembering
the day after christs reserction
is a day held sacred
to his continuing to live[to life/living]
not the death of children..not to the glory of war

bah talk about values
like a blind man talking of light

its easy to pretend to love the dead
but when comes seing the value of war dying

think
what are we fighting for
if not living for peace..at least dont die to prolong war

Jim Wallace unlike Chrys Stevenson and others posting here know what its like to put their life on the line for this country. Chrys Stevenson might be able to speak for the god deniers/haters but certainly not for the general population . Her god hating ideas are far more extreme than this man who put his life on the line to allow the likes of Chrys and Rusty the freedom to spread their bile.

@ Jim Wallace ACL, @ Monday, 25 April 2011 7:52:20 AM & 8:23:15 AM

What really is the significance of one comment of one person in one context, and thei opinions about the role of th KLV 400 years ago?

Jim, you are stuck in reference of sound-bite from authority, and sound-bite about it, and sound bite to tradtion.

@ runner, the previous role of someone has no bearing on the merits of their pronouncements.

Arguments should stand on their current merits.

Values should stand on their own current merits, too - respect, honour, consideration, etc

It's bad enough that we're expected to doff our caps at the sanctimonious crap preferred by the ACL (and a great retort that's gone unanswered, Rusty), but a double helping bringing in the anzacs is more than I can bear. It's bad enough putting up with the wall to wall wallowing on tv and radio today. I'm sick of hearing what the anzacs died for. They died for swallowing the same patriotic bilge (and enlisting) that they're legend is now being used to perennially recycle.
Australian values are called expediency and the church deserves plenty of credit for their institutionalisation.

The degree to which Jim Wallace's or Chrys Stevenson's views are extreme has nothing whatever to do with their truth. Nor has Mr. Wallace's background. But he is mistaken in his views as to the morality of homosexual activity; he is mistaken in his view about the relation between Christianity and morality, he is mistaken in his acceptance of the writings of St. Paul, and he is mistaken in his view about what he should do about Australian laws.

I find it extraordinary how un-Australian many of the posts have been in this thread, with so much religious bigotry. Someone posted a listing of our nation's supposed values. We would do well to try and live up to those values and not show ourselves to be shallow hypocrites.

Jewely, I was disappointed by your early post - which seemed distinctly anti-Christian. Perhaps you were carried away by your concern for the article's purported Christian conspiracy to limit your personal freedoms. I hope so.

Kenny,
"Just as your god person isn't real your version of history isn't either."

Well, Kenny, I am sad to say this post of yours unfortunately conveys one of the major problems facing our global society today, as have a large number of posts on this thread - that of religious intolerance. It has been made clear in many articles and posts elsewhere that our enlightened society prefers separation of church, state and judiciary, and a secular society and political system. Many countries are in civil conflict trying to come to terms with these or similar ideals. Fortunately we are not, but still look for improvements.

In my ideal world there is but one God (or Allah, Jehovah) to believe in or not as the individual may choose, as also we must accept those cultures which have other or multiple deities. What is so disappointing is the "them and us" still so prevalent and destructive in some belief systems, or a corrupted form perhaps of those belief systems.

It is time for the discrediting of labels like "infidel" or non-believer, for they don't sit well with the tolerant teachings of their parent religion, and certainly not with the view of an open, tolerant and constructive global society. So much strife in the world today because of jealousy, covertness and greed, cloaked in the name of religious or political aspirations. We have seen this sort of bigotry and intolerance in pogroms, holocaust, genocides, ethnicides or religiocides. Surely it is time in our small world to help each other to achieve true freedom, security and enlightenment.

The hypocracy of these rightwing religous freaks, is beyond contempt. Today ANZAC day Jim Wallace denigrates the memory of those who gave their lives, to exploit is vitriol towards Gays and Muslims.
This attitude belongs in the Facist thirties, not in the 21st century.

Saltpetre,
sanctimonious tripe.
Go to the shopping mall, the footy, the beach, the pub or on an Australian sex holiday to Thailand, or just watch Today Tonight and learn about Australian values.
Just because we have an ideological saturnalia once or twice a year, it doesn't make the mythological values we celebrate real.

Please don't think it's easy for me to poor scorn on emotionally charged days like today, I'm easily moved to tears too, but I refuse to be taken in by all the hype, whether it's religion or patriotism. Patriotism is the first refuge of a scoundrel and religion is the last, the bastion of the hypocrite, and the churches are full of them.

For the critics Of Jim Wallace spend 6 minutues listening to him on his role as head of the SAS.
http://www.publicchristianity.org/Videos/jimwallacesecretssas.html

Philo as much of an embarassment Jim Wallace comments where today for you, negates any quality or meaning if any; to his character.
Aligning yourself to this person does not give you credit, in debate.

Since Jim wallace is ignorant of this fact, I will tell it to him, I will incidentally be also telling runner, a supposed human I think undeserving of the information, so be it.

My ancestors fought in wars to protect *first and foremost* their family, their descendants (that's me and mine) from vermin who think that might makes right and that their trivial preferences like goose-stepping or worshipping at this-or-that altar are important.

Got that Jim? (and poor ignorant little runner). That means *you*. Had you been in Germany, you would have been a goose-stepper too, no doubt.

It would appear the Catholic church did not find Nazism sufficiently reprehensible to *not* offer cooperation, provided they could (of course) continue to milk their flock.

A great moral bastion is "chistianity". I'd think I'd really rather the next candy-wrapper flying down the street. Couldn't be worse.

Keep it up runner, with advocates like you, the churches should be empty in but a few years.

Rusty

Squeers,
"Patriotism is the first refuge of a scoundrel"; So protecting family as Rusty posted makes his ancestors scoundrels? He said "My ancestors fought in wars to protect *first and foremost* their family, their descendants (that's me and mine) from vermin." Obviously his ancestors were fighting within a national force, to protect themselves from abhorent values he identifies as vermin. Patriotism is fighting for thr things one loves and values - so Rustry's ancestors were scoundrels in your view. I think you owe him an apology!

You are a shallow thinker quoting others lines.

we think of value
what is the 'value' we express in war

kill the enemy
[even if they be xtian the same as you]

where lies the rule to kill the infidel
in the words love thy neighbour

where is the value in adoring a man..[born of woman]
in the rule put none before god;..spirit..
never made flesh..never made man

yet sustaining the lives of all men..[and woe-men]

where the christ huh-man..adoration blasphemes
the most holy messenger..the worst..is in making him the judge

[jesus didnt judge anyone..when man..
why should he now judge 'man'..when he is now new-man..in spirit

[at one with god..not as god..
but a light sun of good[god]

see the divided house of the father
[where is the value in this]..
men will at some time realise the oneness of the..*one good [god]

we have murder
and love of murder
[to wit love of war]..those who make war are far from god..
far from good]..yet yesterday i heard many speaking of the good mateship

how by putting the dead youth..on a sacred pedi-stal
govts sending their children..to die are pedophile
an old ozzie value..and religious value

we have a day of drunken debauchery
in memory of lads too young to even have had their first drink

realise the contradiction
that sees this adoration[death cult]..
the next day after the christ has risen..

how much more bleeding obvious is this day of death..
memoralised more than the christs return[non death]
less than hours after his return to the un-dead

i have meant to add..the anzac's show
is a propaganda value

not a true blue ozzie value
let alone an xtian...lol...'value'
to wit valueing the rights of your fellow man

noting the army has sworn alliegance to the queen/gov general
not to the pm..or to the people..or to govt let alone oz or peace

we have just lived through a horrible reality
fought..and lost many wars..[on foreign shores..
as well as genocide patricide matricide pedicide
upon these blood red lands...

lol 'golden sands' is the joke..
its blood shed red

we live in a
war value based reality

Philo,

I doubt that Squeers could be construed as being a "shallow thinker" - but I'm sure he'll get back to you on that one.

Let's face it, patriotism is a double-edged virtue, depending on the cause upon which it is invoked.

Aldous Huxley said:
"One of the great attractions of patriotism - it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat. Bully and cheat, what's more, with a feeling that we're profoundly virtuous."

When you think about it, all a man needs to excuse any number of bigoted thoughts and actions is the psychological construct that he is indeed following some virtuous cause or creed.

the skill of kill
or be killed

where govts value[skill]
in skilling...instilling..not killing

recall the only violence..done by the christ
was upon the money-changers..charging egsorbitant intrest charges
exploitring the fathers children..[and who is not a child of the father

yet this ursury
for the money chanmgers
is an ozzie value..compounding intrest..compounding guilt

that they [we do to the least]
we do to him..[the father sustaining
even the least their lives]..

none live by by his will alone
[his supreeme good gift..to every living 'being']
life glories good [god the life giver sustainer]
death demeans good[god]

why glory in the gory
is the gore glory due
[cast pearl before swine]

nationalism
a xtian value?

oh lord
ye of the flesh
you been decieved

yes indeed nationalism
is the last refuge of the scoundral
just as much as religeon..[as its become]..[its fruits
is a pox upon the honest man

values
what values

love god
love neighbour
are the only true values

where the value
[xtian value...lol

with/in..empoverish the poor
declare a new drug war
tax the smokers
dont tax the gam,blers drinkers and perverts

what golden rule allows govt
to declare unholy wars upon its own people
what holy law says send your kids to die in war

yeah oz values
their xtian for sure

Which patriotisms are you conflating Philo?

The one that motivates young honest men to fight and die because "wiser heads" assure them it is right? That it *will* help protect their loved ones from the aggressor?

Or the one that callously flag-waves, gets the signatures, and casually wastes those lives because their own is not among them?

The patriotism that decides to assault at huge cost in lives or the sort loyal enough to try when ordered?

Lest we forget,

Real patriotism is all too easily subverted and wasted by those willing to claim it to motivate others.

For example, I suggest that the conscripts sent to Vietnam were "patriots", and the word doesn't apply to those who sent them, who debased the term by using it a lot.

Rusty

If its CEO is anything to go by, the Australian Christian Lobby is the source of good Oz values like fear and loathing of gays and Muslims. I'd always thought Twitter was a waste of technology until yesterday, but now I think that Christians of Jim Wallace's ilk should use it often.

It's good to see what their real values are.

Squeers,

Believe it or not I think your post yesterday confirmed rather than denied my philosophy. I speak of an ideal, you retort with an exposition of the human frailties man is err to, you place religion within the confines of churches and doctrines and occasional token observance, mine is a state of mind and being.

So let's forget about religion and doctrine which continues to be the cause of (or excuse for) the exploitation of the weak and the disillusionment of the gullible. To observe only that which is right, without fear or favour, is all and is everything. All the excuses, all the resorting to history for "patriotism" - whether it be tribal or cultural or religious - is to be forever looking back, forever prejudiced, forever blind to possibilities to harmony to true freedom, to peace.

Sure it's a big ask, to live and let live, to give up the "right" to "get away with" all manner of transgressions, big and small, to remain true to what is right. And where is the gospel of what is right and what is evil? I think most of us have a fair idea - given a reasonable chance, and not filled with all manner of propaganda. We in Oz generally exemplify a reasonable portion of what is right, but we are far from perfect, yet. We, as others, can choose to learn from history to do better and to avoid the mistakes which have led to chaos and inhumanity. Surely it is time.

No more hiding behind the subterfuge of denial or of "cause" or of "right" (which translates as "because I can"). Should I kill those who would kill me? Sure. But should I try to understand why, to find another solution first? You bet!

Peace and harmony can only come from trust, and trust only from a common understanding of what to expect from each other - without waiver. If we don't strive to improve ourselves and our understanding then we fail ourselves and the future.

I would like to point out, though, that actually being a tolerant person does not mean that you are un-Christian. In fact, it is quite possible to show many personal traits, characteristics and values that you do not share with Christians, and still be a good person.

Or a bad one, come to that (Pericles)

Exactly Pericles...and if people removed a great deal of "ego" within oneself, as opposed to self esteem, many genuine, positive attributes regarding respect, equality and compassion shown towards others would 'shine' through, improving our Australian peoples way of life.

Lexi, great points and Happy Easter to both of you.

I realise that in telling Jim and poor ignorant runner what my and most other peoples relatives fought for I forgot to tell them one other thing:

*my* rellies, including the uncles that came back, one from each of the world wars, *did not* and I suspect never would give a fig about muslims or homosexuality. Love of family and the hope that that the fight contributed to their protection was a unifying theme in their few letters and in childhood discussion with uncles. "King and country" "god and honour" and other such trivial guff didn't get a look in.

Had I or my children been either homosexual or muslim or both, this would have in no way lessened their resolve to fight to protect their family. Jim Wallace suggests they might not have and this both not true and deeply offensive in a manner that I find undermines any military respect he might otherwise tout. Is that why *he* joined the army? to scrag some fags and ragheads? Would Jim *not* have fought to protect Australian citizens if they are gay or muslim? I believe my antecedents would if alive fight now for *my* right to be anything I want, and if Jim and runner don't like it they could kindly just stay sullen and silent.

If loyalty to country does not stem from love of family, it is a shallow and perverted thing, as Jim has demonstrated and runner clearly does not understand.

Now there is a non-church inspired value that underpins our nation, and all others, from the dawn of recorded history, and you can paste it in your hat.

Rusty

Are Christians really the source of Oz values?

I don't suppose the Christmas and Oestre holidays compensate for all the discrimination against women, homosexuals, other religions and beliefs, do they?

But the weather has been great and my sister and her wonderful family were able to visit me, thanks be universe.

I think it's a wishful construction to say Christianity is 'the source of Australian values'.

But Christianity - in various forms - has been a significant part of our culture since European settlement, and has affected our social values in various ways.

In some ways this was good: qualities of patience, forgiveness, compassion.

In other ways Christianity was interpreted as vengeful and judgemental; and a legitimising Ideology for the social order.

With the sexual revolution and the arrival of multiculturalism Christianity has had to adapt; and these have comprised new and also powerful influences upon our 'national culture'.

But as a liberal who is also a socialist - without even mentioning my Christianity - it is important to recognise for Christians the same rights granted to any number of other communities: religious, spiritual, political, cultural, economic...

I am worried that the tone of debate in this country is tending towards intolerance, such as to threaten the principles of liberal pluralism and voluntary association I mentioned earlier. Christianity may seem like an easy target in this sense for some; But once you set a precedent all manner of groups may as well ask 'where would it end'?

There is the ban on the burqa in France for instance; and much of the Left in this country would oppose a similar move on the basis of the liberal rights of Islamic individuals and the integrity of cultures in a multicultural society. (I would agree with that stance)

But by the same token would we deny these rights to Christians? Why the hated by some of Christianity and Christians when the liberal rights, and rights to self-determination - of more conservative religious communities - goes without question? By the same token: why not sensitivity and attempts at understanding with Christianity, when this goes without question for other often more-conservative religious movements?

Philo:
"Patriotism is fighting for thr things one loves and values".
Sounds sublime, what are these "things" and "values"?
If that were true, that patriotism was something genuinely noble, I'd be all for it. But it's ignoble. As far as I can tell it's a primitive state of social programming, a hive mentality based on fear, aggression and defensiveness. More often than not patriotism is an irrational impulse that rationalises a host of sins in war and peace.

It's a funny thing but I've hated patriotism-nationalism-conservatism for as long as I can remember, long before I had the slightest inkling why. I come from a family of patriots and servicemen; my mother lost her father at Arnhem, her brother in the Blitz, my father saw active service, I had two brothers in the navy and I was in the Army when the Falklands war started and everyone was desperate for some of the action, not because there was any kind of threat, (from the Argentinians for Christ's sake!) just sheer bravado, what the ladies love to weep over and wrap the flag in while their men are given licence to indulge every unspeakable crime imaginable. The reality of war is rape, pillage, infanticide, indeed anything bestial you care to imagine. War is the official suspension of civilities, the free reign of the id, All in the name of King and country. That's the irony, withal the testosterone it's pure subservience!
During the unendurable periods of peace, patriotism gets its kicks by keeping itself primed with all the "values" that serve as the sublime foil. Patriotism is a bully, a sanctimonious prick, literally. God help anyone who dares demur; a white feather is the best he can hope for.
What does love of country mean? It's something that's drummed into us and we seem naturally susceptible to the romance, the faux-discipline (foreplay) and the pretenscious pageantry of it all.
Humans are full of sh!t but they transcend themselves when there's a war in the offing, or one to be reminisced.

Would anyone care to spellout what the "values" of patriotism are?

Tristan

>> qualities of patience, forgiveness, compassion <<

Are not the exclusive preserve of christianity, are positive attributes of humans beings whether they are religious or not and were in use 1000's of years before someone thought virgin birth and resurrection would be a good hook for a religion.

OZ values are a mix of every culture that has arrived to live in this great land starting with aboriginals well over 40,000 years ago.

Now please get over yourselves.

Tristan Ewins: "Why the hatred by some of Christianity and Christians when the liberal rights, and rights to self-determination - of more conservative religious communities - goes without question?"

Because Christianity is part of *our* history.
White, European, Western Civilisation.

The Christophobes want to demonise and demolish our existing society and replace it with their own utopian vision.

The only reason they expouse "liberal" values is because it will enable their demolition project to succeed.

Squeers: "War is the official suspension of civilities, the free reign of the id"

If your id had free reign you wouldn't last long.

War requires strategy and tactics, something that requires clear thinking and planning.

Were Napolean, Hannibal and Alexander the Great just crazy, out-of-control maniacs?

Squeers,
What would you do if six fully armed Japanese soldiers surrounded your house in 1940's? Would you and your family defend your right to live or surrender to torture and death? Obviously wear a white feather!

Makes you wonder why a "loving God" would design an "intelligent" species so fond of squabbling over territory and resources - and one who consistently inflicts such cold calculated acts of savagery upon its own kind.

"There can be no compromise to one's religious beliefs,"

The church's "ability to discriminate … is central to the democratic freedoms of our country".

Did Jim Wallace write this? or one of his close cronies?

It is a pity some of the more higher profile Christians do not reflect some of the values of tolerance, compassion and friendship extolled in the teachings.

Nobody is flawless, but blatant attacks on Muslims, homosexuals and atheists/secularists in the name of Christian good will is beyond the pale.

Australian values come from what is inherently 'human' altruism whether reflected in Christianity through the estalishment of their beliefs, or Bhuddists, Muslims, pagans, spiritualists - you name it. Most spiritual or charity based groups arise from an intent to do good, even if at time the power relationships lead to corruption and evil doings. (Discounting of course the cult groups established to extract money and foster abuse)

The most dangerous aspect of any religion is arrogance and individualism that leads one to discount and persecute those with a differing world view.

Poirot; I think a lot of honest Christians struggle with the injustices and brutality of this world and how a loving God could allow it all. For me I see a need for human hope, and wisdom in conceding we don't know everything, and as such need to (at least partly) trust in something greater than ourselves.

That said, when I read of the testing of Job I still cannot reconcile this in my conscience as just. And of the Suffering Servant from Isaiah: Accepting this scripture refers perhaps both to example(s) before/including/after Christ - It begs the question - was it necessary?; was it just?; if it was not necessary or just why would God allow it?; Why would God allow an innocent to be 'cut off from the land of the living'?

But in any case - even our hopes were false, we should have the right to entertain them; Marx's 'opium of the masses' did refer to faith as consolation; Consolation eases suffering; To those who suffer that matters.

Again, though - for genuine liberals - we should have the right to our free choices in determining our faith, in our search for meaning. But Leftists should always scrutinise the misappropriation of religion for cynically worldly ends; to rationalise war and demonise those that stand in our way; and as I said earlier - to legitimise the social order behind which lies hypocrisy,

Shockadelic:
"War requires strategy and tactics, something that requires clear thinking and planning.

Were Napolean, Hannibal and Alexander the Great just crazy, out-of-control maniacs?"

Sardonic right?
If you're serious read the last part of Tolstoy's War and Peace, where he talks about the strategy and "genius" of war.

Philo,
suitably, I've just watched Mel Brooks' musical "The Producers" for the umpteenth time--you know, "Springtime for Hitler and Germany", a gay romp. I watch it religiously at this time of year. It'd do Major Wallace good to watch it. It's a tonic!
I'll wear a white feather any time, with pride. It takes guts to stand up against monumental crap.

Sorry forgot the clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwhD10lYGVE

Poirot,
Do you want freedom of choice or determinism? God does not create wars. The lusts of the carnal desires creates the conflict because man is a being empowered by choice. It is man that is the problem not God. Because all life is mortal it all has a beginning and an end, which is how we are designed and we must operate within.

You posted, "Makes you wonder why a "loving God" would design an "intelligent" species so fond of squabbling over territory and resources - and one who consistently inflicts such cold calculated acts of savagery upon its own kind".

Squeers

Love "Springtime for Hitler" - thanks for the laugh.

Tristan Ewans

You have not responded to my comment that >> qualities of patience, forgiveness, compassion << "Are not the exclusive preserve of christianity". Therefore I assume you agree these virtues do not require belief in christianity.

Philo

>> God does not create wars. <<

Read your bible, your god "ordered, assisted in, or approved of dozens of complete genocides".

http://tinyurl.com/3nje564

You can't just read the 'nice' bits without considering the nasty things god gets his followers to do.

why do those
claiming to hold authoritive..*knowing
so missrepresent..the true-values..of love/grace/mercy

god..[the father of all living]
is the greatest lover..of all* men
being the best..men...the best..of mankind
as man by being kind..may become..can become
[shall become]..

he is not a dreaded judge of mankind
indeed far from it..he alone sustains to live..
even the most vuile living

not to judge them
but that..they CHOSE
to turn their back..upon their will..to sin

[go..and will to sin no more]

he has no mercy to give
[for he alone sees only the good]
in judging us not..he need not forgive..even our judgment..of our/own vile

men did the vile..upon men
it is for men..to for-give
correction?..not from him who alone is all good

he has no judgment..nor pardon
[for he alone knows..
sin is a judgment..we cast upon others]

he made heaven..the place of perfection
we made the earth..to be whatever we chose it to be
we alone created hell..by rejecting his perfect place

he formulated no petty rules..nor laws
this is made of man..for men..by orthodoxy
that sees..all..*of man as unclean..as sinner's..
as being lover's of hate/loving their sin...

[its authodox'y spin]

he alone..holds no wrath

this is a value
of the church

a value of man..
judging con-trolling
other men

live your reality
not theirs

your values
not theirs

dare to ask what life/living..gives
he gives..us all life

he gave us a perfect heaven
an eternity of good

he only gives us..an oppertuinity to chose
his eternal perfections..for you
or to push them away from you

his devine will
is your eternal contentment
[does govt do this..or seek to judge you..

just who's value is this]

not the fathers
nor his favoured messenger

jesus came
not to found a new church
nor found a new religeon...nor faulse judgmental beliefs

we can all chose..to become saints
or chose to remain demons..

or worse remain mere man..

you are the fruit*
you judge that good or bad..for you

your either living your true good/value
or judging others sinner..and CHOSING your own sin

its you
that chose the fruits..of your life's journey

the laws of man
or not laws of spirit

the spirit realm is far abouve..that of mere man
the small minded rules
and coven-ants
of me/n

you live
your own values
to your own values be true

do you seek with passion
to love thy neighbour

or seek sin and fault
so you can declare him most foul

deserving of eternal war
deserving only of humiiations
biased hates...hasty judgments..ongoing lies..perpetual fear

bah
your own guilts have made you fail to hear

god loves a repentant sinner
feel the god within you

see the good [god]..within others
for we are all but neighbours/sisters and brothers

one father
one good who gave all living
their life...

what you chose to do with that...

well that
was clearly
*your own choice

annonite/quote..""Read your bible,""
i have read and re read the two books
as have many others here

in the new test i meant
it was written..know your master voice
so i realised knowing his voice is love
i could easilly tell the wheat[good]..from the tares..lies

as other have posted the two books have been heavilly edited and rewritten...[not only translated by those missing the true loving voice..but inverted the concepts written from right to left..into now reading from left to right

when you say such silly things such as
quote""your god "ordered,""
your refering to the lies put into the book
by those who know only untruths..know only lies

when you say god
""assisted in,or approved of dozens of complete genocides"."

your using con-jecture in lue of your sensabilities
think..

why would an all knowing god create us?
you could never know...the book wont tell you

in fact the 'book'..or rather many books
are rather light on much that is really important..

like detail about heaven..

or why jesus..was to be called emaunel
[meaning god with..[iN] us {all]..

if you never known love
you will never get this love thing

mothers have a head start
which of your kids will you kill?

ditto with god
get it?

lest we forget the origonal language
of the books didnt use a 'j'

so all 'j' words are suss..
je-suss...as much as hints at this

but think if there was just you..
what would you do..
if you were god..

if you gave life to all living
as the mother of all living
who would you chose to judge..blame shame or reject?

would you hope the kids would grow up
to have an equal..to share your amasing creation with
or just kill them and murderr them ..fight their fights for them

patriarchal clap trap

READ THE BOOKS
AS A GROWNUP
not a child..

you learnt santa clause was fake
you learnt easter bunny was a con..grew out of the tooth fairy
so those who told you lies win..you cant believe the one truth..

so you miss
the only real truth

science has never* made life
cant make it..cant replicate it..
has no clue how dust came to live..

god is the only truth
but we are so over..the so many lies taught to children..
so that we miss the greatest truth..the only truth..

[and yes religeons got no clue

they completly missed the living loving good
dont make their misstake*

read the 'nice' bits
without considering the nasty things
his followers say god gets them..to do....

BUT
hey they lied

yet..god loves even them
get used to it..

he loves you too
regardless...of what you think of her

it what you chose to do
the reasons he lets you chose

growup
or rebut
lets talk about evolution

evolution is only within genus
evolving new species..but NEVER NEW GENUS

the gap theory has huge gaps
there is non stop deciete

only last night there was a program on sbs
why are we here..it was all spin...

go on tell me to prove it
i dare you

go on tell me to prove it
i dare you.....ok! prove it to me OUG:) and lets see how well you do.

GO!

LEAP

To all of those who think that their values are based on Christian teachings. Does this mean that without your religion you would not be able to tell the difference between right and wrong? What an admission!

Philo,

"God does not create wars"- precisely!

Man creates, spiritually and materially - anything from gods to wars....

UOG

Take a paper bag and place it over your mouth and breathe through your mouth evenly and slowly - I fear you are hyperventilating at the thought that others, such as myself, do not believe in your religion or your god.

I understand that the claims made in the book I linked to are upsetting, that is the point, the god created by your religion (in fact all the Abrahamic religions) is a manipulative megalomaniac - no doubt this god is a fabrication by men for men, as this explains the basis of religion as one of control over the minds and behaviour of people.

Human values were and are created by humans. Even other animals have incredible values, I will never forget my German Shepherd protecting me from assault by two men, nor my cat waking me to alert me to an intruder. This tiny world in the vastness of the universe is both a wonderful and frightening place - if you require belief in a god to determine your behaviour, I can only feel sorrow for you.

ammonia..i dont defend..*the book
it has many lies..in it

just like all cons
there is..a core of truth...
only able to be found..by sorting the spin..from the fact

to demon strate lets visit a formentioned sbs program
titled 'how did we get here'..

[clearly implying the show would explain at least this]

from my notes..the program opend with hans sloan..a collecter
there was a demonstration of how to catch[lassoo lizards]

much was made of him having many flora and fauna samples
we followed his samples to a museum..[went to commercial]

where we were shown a mammoth tooth
[introduced to george kuvela..extrinction theory..
and how by experiment..the earth was determined..to be older than the bible says

[a point not made*in the bible]

anyhow we next visited france
went/second break

came back..talked of fossils
[none specificlly linked to 'how we got here']

got into geology plate teqtonics silika point deposits
then the industrial revolution..steam power..touched on darwin's pigeons

introduced robert chambers..[and his vestages theorum]

buzzwords like creation/transmutation/evolution..
[of species]..not genus..

mentioned how sucess
ensured..numeric advantage..
commonality ensures survival..
[and went..the last advert/break]

next we went to the vegner plate/theory..
glossing over the expanding earth...
went to coldwar theory..rifts..valleys mountains..volcanoes

concluded the buzz..piece with words
'life is born out of death'..[lol]

''story of life
is driven by climate change[extinctions]
we live on a violent planet''

''next week..we explain how we can have unlimited power''

in short nothing like..the tree[of life]
or 'why we are here]

but know nothings.,.will say
ahh..so thats how life was made*

the previous week..was
'the secret life of chaos'
claiming self organised algorythems
mindless..[unnamed]..simple rules
pattern formation
belusian affect

*conjured up life

saying
'design dont need designers'

its all just fodder..for a godless theory

saying we know
when even science..*dont got a clue

realise you got decieved...
species evolve within a genus mean
genus has never evolved out of genus

[but ignorants claim it does]
science admits it's never happend

the THEORY of evolution is fraud
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2305&page=0

but go ahead believe as you will
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0
some people..*need to believe spin

OUG, (a thought)

God (Allah, Jehovah) created a magnificent ever-expanding universe
Wild, unbridled, in torment, glorious
A special place within the foment, calmed, yet hostile still
Elements beautifully aligned, wondrous
A spark indescribable, of "Life"
Imperfect, imponderable, possibility
A flood kaleidoscope in form, branching, reaching, spreading
Infant writhings, unsettled still, upheaval preceding storm
Cataclysm
Revival, resurgence, blossoming
Explosion in abundance, vigor unbridled
Pattern, balance, calm, order
Thought, perception, consciousness
Realisation
Realignment, modification, manipulation
Awareness
Exploitation, plundering, competition
Edict, law, revolt, revision
Enlightenment
Discrimination, divergence
Deliverance
Questioning, review, civilisation
Industry, government, science
Repression, bewilderment, unrest
The Lucky, the Blessed, the Downtrodden, the Dispossessed
The Misguided, the Hopeful
The Earth.

you were mostly going good..[peter]
till this

""Exploitation,plundering,competition
Edict,law,revolt,revision""
these are not of good gods creation
they are the creeds of selfish children

[only made real*..by men
failing to realise god made plenty
*for all his children]

god made the natural we see reflected
in the nurture..of nature

see how even a savage beast
loves and nurtures its young

this is the good..[god]..
reflected from within even them

even continuing with your quote
""Enlightenment
Discrimination,divergence
Deliverance"

are choices made by man
[god dos not discriminate between one life and the next
he sustains us all our lives..equally to good useful..

and that we might call bad and without use..
god sustains all to live according to their nature and want]

he answers our questions
before we even form them
indeed its said the question often is
a reflection of gods gift..we dont quite grasp....get yet..

thus also of man is
""Questioning,review,civilisation
Industry,""

such concepts such as
""government,science
Repression,bewilderment,unrest""

its not he who judges nor gifts us to be seen as
""The Lucky,Blessed,Downtrodden,Dispossessed
Misguided,nor Hopeful""

for these are qualities man develops
in answer to questions as they occur to us
to dare to ask god why?

god made the means of life
and sustains the goods of life
indeed sustains each living our very living

he made the glory and logic..and light..and love and life
but the man destroyed the mountains..
built and destroyed their cities
poluted gods water...and dirtied his air

in truth we could say
mad made..

""The Earth.""

from the dust of those who sought the good before us
we now have even their collected wisdoms..in our holy books
to try and make sense of it all

and finally move nearer to the only perfect
the only true wise and good

who's name is not jesus nor jehova
[indeed jehova means;..'oh him ...god]

god is simply good
simply good..[god]..allah
and any other name that means good..[god]

anyhow cheers
may we be mercyfull
to all the messengers of man
who's wisdoms..joined*together...
lets us get nearer to the only good...

[god]

OUG.......The part of our human consciousness is pre-literate, both historically and in our personal childhood experience, and the whole of our experience cannot necessarily be captured by words. It may be important to lay wordless experiences alongside the wordy ones, as in music, colour, form, movement and smell.

This is recognition that our need for such things is based not on God-given instinct, but a subconscious biologically-based leftover from out preliterate days, and our preliterate youth. When symbols, as in early religion, were much more powerful and imposing because we had no words.

Symbolism and ritual form part of our development, and part of our needs, in life. What people need to understand is, human development places our awakenings from the first point, as our minds tried to make sence of what seems an impossibility for all this what we see today, as it cant happen by its self.

OUG! I believe it all can happen, and life on earth is no simple task by any means to explain, but the evidence for this to take place, is overwhelming and extremely probable.

If religious people want to take the easy way out, then scripture is for you. However....Until someone can prove scripture is the in-fact word of GOD, all you have is other peoples say-so.

We have seen how religious beliefs can frequently derive from the inaccurate ways in which we have evolved to see the world and from otherwise-normal psychological mechanisms misleading us into supernatural and irrational beliefs.

LEA

dear leap

in no way is any holy text written/dictated or imprinted by god

inspired yes...but so much is only what men
thought/believed or wanted/needed others to believe..

i have long loved science
and can concieve...
evolving..from a single cell
say an ammoeba...

but science has studdied this single cell
and found so much complexity..
needing specific simultanious mutions

and specific things to happen...lol..spontaniously
as to become mathimaticlly impossable

mate i was into science for all my life
only found god arround 20 years ago..by then i knew
that species mutating..was limited to its specific genus

not one new genus
has ever mutated..out of another genus

to wit..no fly has mutated into a bee
no finch has mutated into a budgie

nothing

you can research like i have
and find only talk of species

even darwin talked of [evolution of species]
not evolution of genus..

*that needs to occur
for a cold blood/fish
*to become a warm-blooded land mammal

but i have explored this stuff in depth
on other topics...

so please name one evolution..
and i will prove your incorrect
i havnt failed to disproove even on thing* yet
see the main link..at world freeman society

think my brother..
life can only come from life
life from NON life..has NEVER been done..

*ever
not seen
not reported..nothing

even science
as clever as it seems to be
can only insert genes [chromosones]..into living cells

*it cant make a membrane..
[all cells need them]

it..[ a chromosone]..cant make life..
it needs other things[20 minimum]
to sustain life..sustain the dna..create rna
rebuilt dna..feed sustain the cell walls etc

see previous posts

[it /science..has put a chromosone..from 'bits'..it joined together
into a living bacteria..

but it didnt MAKE the bacteria
only scopped out its dna...
YET WAS WIDLY REPORTED AS SCIENCE making life
but that was a scam..

fooling only those needing to be fooled

think my brother
here is me alive
next moment in dead

my body is EGSACTLY the same
except my life force is gone

AND..science cannot get it going again

[think of the oldest being.;
...max life expectaion is just over 100]

once the last cell has divided
once the last tellimere has decayed
by initiating the division of its chromosonal strand..

*the cell dies

we know the LAW
energy cant be created..NOR destroyed

a living sperm..is passed
from a living being
into a living egg

this small..living..'life energy'..grows
till at maturity there is a few grams of living energy
this energy
isnt 'matter'..
isnt subject to the laws of decay
ie isnt subject to [the laws of the flesh]

it lives in the realm of other energy
in other dimentions..lets call them heaven/hell

think of energy as a flow
from positive to negative

+=god
-=u/me
it flows from him into us...us to him..back to us again
not directly..but via the positive realm...heaven
into the lower realm's..

but more than just energy
there is thoughts..from the other realms
carried along with the flux...

those with the right sincronous positive and negative vibrations
recieve the inputs from heaven and hell

[if we feel sad we attract the sad negative energy forces
in the other realms]..actually feel think ..

as those sympathetric in-put..im-pulses
influxes we attracted feel think etc

the life energy comes to us
via heaven and hell

crossing accross the width and breadth of both
and everything in between..

phychics can even follow the flow..
as it inflows into us

[the so called silver cord]

but im wandering too far from the point
i have said this stuff at other topics

so just name one genus change
that you believe happend
and we will work with that

i guess we should move one question or concept at a time
for now we are talking about values

life is about what we chose to value
put effort into making real

we need to real-ise ..that its by our works..deeds
not our words or thoughts

we spend our life doing that
making real that..we truelly value

"even science
as clever as it seems to be
can only insert genes [chromosones]..into living cells

" *it cant make a membrane..
[all cells need them]

"it..[ a chromosone]..cant make life..
it needs other things[20 minimum]
to sustain life..sustain the dna..create rna
rebuilt dna..feed sustain the cell walls etc"

@ OneUnerGod

Science isn't the mechanism for natural biology, oug, it is the explanation.

Science may be the mechanism for artificial things like engines, and rockets, but not basic biology.

mc quote/''Science isn't the mechanism for natural biology, oug, it is the explanation.""

it is a theory
[as far as their THEORY of evolution is concerned]

think is their theories are wrong
sure with simple biological process..the can claim to know..bits

but with evolution[ie changing genus
where they calaim one genus 'evolved'..into new genus
thats pure fraud]

no one has ever evolved
a wolf into a tiger
or an ape into man..

[sure they speculate..but speculation..isnt science either]
thing is they dont know
cant replicte it[no replication no claim to science..'method'

the dont have faulsification
[ie cant even state definitive faulsifyable principles
that if refuted rebuts their thesis]

all science must have that
or its not science

but thats why its taught to kids
gullible kids..as adults they think they know
but when tested/pushed..reveal all they got is spin

but im wasting valuable posting limits
i was going to expand on values

but its possably beyond others comprehending
till they get they been sold lies..

by those who got no values for truth

yes believing in a god
sold by liars[religiously lying]
and going against..'the science'
seems a big jump

but just because they are liars
dont mean the cant stumle on same truths

[the best/biggest lie
needs to be mostly truth..or it fools no-one]

but the ignorant of science
think they are sooo clever
saying i [me]..dont get the science..

trouble being i know what science
is trying to say..and they lie

so i need others
to put up what they think they know
so i can prove to them they been decieved

but they hate to appear dumb
[but they arnt..]

the dumb stay silent
thus 'they' remain dumb
the wise dont mind asking questions

[its the dumb who try to answer][to wit me]

im only asking others
to dare to ask for proof
or present it

or ask me to rebut
or rebut what i say

yes believing in a god
sold by liarsyes believing in a god
sold by liars[religiously lying]
and going against..'the science'
seems a big jump
and going against..'the science'
seems a big jump...

OUG...Your confusing me here. So your not with Evolution as you have written above....nor are you
"Quote yes believing in a god
sold by liars[religiously lying]".and you call yourself ONE UNDER GOD..so you present yourself as a believer of some other type of god..OK, got that much...So could you please tell me which God you believe that made it all?

So neither left or right on this subject......I get that......so you must exist somewhere in the middles grounds.......and can you please explain exactly where that is......cause the God your saying right, is the one you believe in.......What is its name, if it has one?

And No-more of your lengthy contradictory mumbo jumbo.

I will settle for I dont know either way or Iam just a commentator.

LEA

It is very probable that a healthy sense of self without reliance on belief in a deity/religion disseminates the highest and best values in a society.

"In 2005, the Kripke Center released a detailed study called, “Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies.” Long title, I know. But, what it said was very important and gets overlooked by many atheists.

Keep in mind, the Kripke Center ISN’T secular and has no reason to promote a secular view. According to their own website, “The Kripke Center is dedicated to facilitating scholarly activity in the areas of religion and society. Special attention is given to promoting understanding between and among faith communities, including especially Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The Kripke Center’s primary audience is the academic community, but its scholarship and services are available to all who seek them. The Center is named in honor of Rabbi Myer and Dorothy Kripke.” The study had some amazing discoveries. They concluded:

Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted. Contradicting these conclusions requires demonstrating a positive link between theism and societal conditions in the first world with a similarly large body of data – a doubtful possibility in view of the observable trends."

For the full report check out the link below:

http://tinyurl.com/37j7pom

OUG. I find this just for you. Can you please comment on it.

Oh and please read the YouTube comments below the link. Thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpT88Jw-f4&feature=related

Peace:)

LEA

quote/leap
''tell me which God you believe that made it all?""

as i said..god made the universe
sustains all life etc

he made the earth
we modified it...killed off much of it
made the polution etc

god just made life and sustains it to be
as to which 'god'..there is but one god

im told he calls himself 'me'
or even i..[as in ..'i am']
others call him[her]..by many names

but he is beyond name
[and beyond lable like male/fee-mail]

some think to have/know his name
that they control him..[its such a joke]

''you must exist..in the middles grounds""
so do you my brother
this realm lies between heaven and hell

i like you lie in the middle..'ground'
im in the middle about most aspects of this life
i love respect and honour all the messengers.
.but hold none before my good..god

''please explain exactly..where that is''
i ove [try to love gods creation
as i know god does love all his creation
[as you know i often fail..at consistantly loving all of you]
but hey im not god..only god is ALLWAYS good

im allowed to be wrong
cause human error cant hurt spirit

""What is its name''
i call the femail part
aspect..of good ana
[alpha/negative alpha]

the male asspect of good i call 'i am'

but mostly i just think of him as good

""lengthy contradictory mumbo jumbo.""
pot klettle my beloved brrr-other..

''I will settle for I dont know""

i cant do that
if i feel i know..i put it out-there
and if others think im wrong..im only too ready to listen

im not just posting commentary
im posting what i feel fits
as a reasonded out answer

i really spent my life reading stuff
everything is half right and half wrong
and if im wrong or right..dont matter to me

*as much as knowing the truth
god is love/logic/life/light/thought..[energy]
where his 'signs..[see previous line]..are..

there god must be
thats good enough for me
that we do to/for the least..we do to him

[by the..love of neighbour
is the how..of how..we love god]

Thank you for your honesty OUG, and quite right....

" there god must be
thats good enough for me
that we do to/for the least..we do to him"

That! OUG.....I understand. That middle/natural/neutral ground sure is quite a comfortable place to exist in, and Iam sure there's more of you, with just that type of feelings towards life. However, not all see it as we are, ( Mankind is futuristic, but caving and both of us will be forever profoundly different in our definitions of what the origins of life are, and I hope you find yours, with peace in your heart from your readings of/Him/Her and not the controlling evil one,s, who wish to suppress all in the name of what evolved in us. You know, the one's that's miles away from any reliability of truth, that most take for granted. ( thats freedom to be free )...OUG... It is indeed...A FUNNY OLD WORLD.

All the best

QL

i would love to be able to visit youtube links

but my server simply refuses to acces youtube*

from what i can make out from reading the tab
its about the origen of species..

but i can only acces as far as that
thus of course
i cant watch/let alone comment...there

but please
name what they say was the first life
or the origen of life..i have rebutted so many of them
had too many comments..and lengthy debates deleted..when they lost

i recall debating with dorkins..
re his flat fish theory

he claims
..they 'evolved'..because their eyes dragged in the mud]..lol
..[yet the fry..[young]..flatfish arnt flat..
..indeed look like any other fish

thats when he got rid of..all the posts i posted
they simply pretend it never happend

but mate please post a summery

here..!

not being able to acces you tube is a pain
a fool left a comment on my vidio

PlexusMusic has made a comment on

about the unseen cause..
logus love harmonics resonating
light/love via logic into life..:

he said..""What a load of crappp[edited].
And another minute of my life fu4c3d..[edited]..up.""

i been trying to reply;..

:your life is the sum total
of the moments..*you chose

if all your choices were bad
then you really had..*a bad life

but remember
that..*it was your choice

ps..
[im sure the clip ran longer than a minute]

i did it
when grayham banned me for a month
just trying out..a different 'way'..to exchange opinions

but it just wasted my download limits
and half an hour downloading pictures/editing

publishing uploading it took much longer..
but this was on my old acces provider

".... we should be asking how tolerant is a minority lobby determined to redefine an institution for its own political agenda, when the institution has so much deep cultural, and in many cases religious, significance for so many."
Posted by Jim Wallace, Australian Christian Lobby, Thursday, 21 April 2011 12:06:27 PM

So prophetic, Jim, Given your ANZAC day tweet and tangental addressing of your intent.

i noted..in watching a wedding recently
the future pope of great briton..was wearing an army uniform*

for me that summed up,,the war like footing..
that has highjacked xtianity

clearly as revealed in previous posts..these lands
are ruled under the articles of war..thus the values of war

as witnessed by the near genocide and..internment in camps
their decendants still live on..to this day

lest we forget the lost/generations
or the stolen/wages

or the high imprisonment of the natives
let alone the deaths in custody

[numericly high
but reflective..of suicides in prisons generally..]

only their high percentage..[disproportuinatly/representive]..
imprisoned mainly because the legal service facilitates their incarceration..so as to steal their kids..

and remove the father..from the family unit

yes
true xtian/values indeed

the sooner we end this deviated xtian values/style
of xtian values..[insanity]..[lol..value]..the better

today the door knocking xtian sect..visited
telling me of how..the lord is comming

let me quote from the text[called]
'what is gods kingdom'...[personally i feel
revelations covers that..[he is enthroned in our hearts..or not]

..and emanuel
[god within us all]

but back to their quote

""gods kingdom..which is a real govt..
will soon bring..an end to all wickedness""

i told them jesus
didnt judge no-one

who is there to judge sin or sinner
certainly not the christ..[recall the non-stoning?]

he served even the least..his own cloak..etc
he LIVED for loving nerighbour
not casting guilt upon perceieved..self adjudged/sin

regardless..lets quote some more

''kingdom..governed by king
[the reserction of christ?]''

thing is jesus isnt dead
he appeared before his followers..[read the book]
to prove there is no spiritual death..

[and no reserction day/no judgment day]

''vision/prophet daniel'

now a prophet
as such recieves comunication from heaven

why arnt xtians doing this today...?

why?..[read on]

''daniel..i kept on beholding the vision''

get it...

'a vision..of the 'night'..

now heaven is in the light
no night ever..

heaven is perpetual..'day'[light]

but read on

''see there!..
..a son of man''

to wit..not god
[jesus born of woman demon-strated
what all men..will do in time..
to wit survive...'death'
heal sin..love neighbour..

love good]

but read on

[jesus?]..""happend to be comming;..

and...""

continues

""..to the ancient..*of days'"
[ie to god]

.."'he gained acces*''

.."'and they?...bought him up close..
even before that one..[ie god]''

now 'they'..may be angels
[following his 'death'..@..passover]

or they could be us
[now us putting him before god
contradicts the first law...having none [NO ONE}..before god]

andf so many xtians
simply cant swallow
him not* being god

but back to the quote

""and to him''..[ie this son of men]
''there were given rulership...and dignity...and kingdom''

so we wake up
pick a human
and pretend jesus has come

WHY?

''that the peoples
national groups and languages..should ALL SERVE..even him""

ie the prince of peace/love grace mercy..etc
now the thing is...god serves even the least to live

jesus[or this son of man]..
[prince of peace..anti/christ..whatever]
would need to do the same god does

[ie serve his living creation
not be served by it]
[this is where we are getting jesus teaching WRONG]
he did as he saw our father do
xtians MUST SERVE AS THE CHRIST SERVED

not be served
we get as we de-serve[by serving peace wrong]

ie end your darn war!

but back to the quote

""his rulership is imdefinatly lasting'
not perpetual..nor eternal..not forever
but indefinatly..

ie..[at the whim of those he serves
with peace...dignity/kingdom..and just
fair equal...unbiased..true..rulership

this..''..indefinite rulership
that will not passaway''

is clearly the good of god
channeled down to earth..from heaven
by means the church forbids..

[cause it cant tell that good from god
from that of the demions of the night..

but kids sure can know good from ill..
[to wit that good from christ..from the vile of demons]

and this is why
''his rulers ship is an indefinatly lasting..[value]...
that will not pass away''

[because we the people help tell good from ill
by voting out the world govt who gets it wrong...
immediatly its proven wrong]

''and his kingdomis the one
that will NOT BE BOUGHT TO RUIN*'

dan 7;13/14

well thats what i got so far

its funny leap
how you said...''Mankind is futuristic,''

as i went to sleep last night..
[the night the future pope...of the common wealth wed a comminer]

there was on the bbc
a guy..[phycotrist]..talking about two people
[patients...by intials

one[ep]...lived only
in the moment..[had no memory]
and was much like a zen monk...but quite disfunctional..
cause he couldnt..imagine tomorrow..nor recall yesterday...

the other [s..?]..rememberd everything

but couldnt discriminate that usefull..
from that totally useless

he could rabbit out everything
he had paid attention to..but
couldnt tell good from bad

so both these states are not good

i feel thats much like todays values
law judges by past judgments..not..wether it was fair

and cops live in the moment
policing things..they judge in the moment
irregardless of wether the law id fair or indeed legally unlawfull

ok xtains shouldnt judge..
it dont matter a hoot what was the reality yesterday

our living god lives..*in real time..
lives inside us all..*right now*

so saying though
i note the pope in a box
[well 3 boxes really]
[i understand porn is only double wrapped]

but see its the same thing
as that toughening up thing the army does
only this xtian version..is called can-anon-isation..

[not the armed forces..;bar-SS-teurd-isation]
that comes 'from' hell for sure

anything with the word
cannon in it..must be suss

unrelated
i wrote this learning
for the pope in boxes 3

wwho may or may not be in that dark place
where many of the middle ages popes dwell
[recall the inquisition..
;..direct from hell]

anyhow

what if you
were in a dark place,..say in a box
what difference to you..where that box is

how could you learn or care to learn the colour of the box
from within..its too dark to tell a black thread from a white thread

and the outside
well who cares

how would you know the box waas even the 'right-way' up
or the right branded lable...or indeed even if it were a box

anyhow
posting limit...lol

will finish the story
at the anzac thread...
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4432&page=0

For the confused - I am a follower of Christ who taught love your enemy, do goo to those who hate you, to his disciples he said, "put away your weapons, my kingdom is not of "the nationalist systems" of this world". I am not a part with nationalist Israel, which is what the OT is about - I follow Christ and the new Covenant.

your correct philo
if only we would all try to give good
even to those who hate us....[oh well]

anyhow i watched a documentry on sbs last night
it showed what i will presume to be a royal navey flag
[a white flag..with the red horisontal cross..and the britsh flag in its top corner..nearest the pole]

ie much like nz flag
or the ozzie flag
but white[with cross]
where ours is blue[with white stars]

thing is that remided me we are the same as a navy[in status..privledges/obligation..[values]

the show actually said as much
seems..that the brits elites..decided in the late 18 th century
to treat briton...as-IF a ship..

[we have much the same basis to our laws

the govt is like a ships captain at sea
telling us shanghied into their system...what to do and when to jump

[where we can smoke..
when we can pay tax..
when we can go to war to die]

think of it...in court you stand in the dock
you need a leave pass to pass a port..[a passport]

we are accorded the standing of landed goods
[we have a berthing certification..[birth-certificate]
we need licence[permissions]...to do that otherwise unlawfull

its funny how the dots join
see the prince at his wed-ding
dressed in what..an army uniform
a redcoat uniform..

not only is he the future commander in chief
and the armed forces sworn to protect the crown
[ie the royal; estates..crown land..crown law]

he will soon be the pope of the anglican/church

how much more evidence do we need
we got xtian 'values...but under the heel of armed force's

thing is next year...2012
things change..this is the year
when the christ returns to lord it over us
read the announcement..[previous posts..

and the last]
that will be the first
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4434&page=0

the demcratic christ elect*

instead of the 'house of'..
the sainted..'lords'..a leaping
leaping all over traditional xtian values

UOG,
That red cross on a white background is the cross of St George, as the union Jack represents the crosses of St Patrick - Ireland, St Andrew - Scotland and St George - England. The three form the union of the three original countries.

thanks for that philo
[its just i thought the lines
on the brit flag represented their joinder]

the one that was in the top corner
this should show the flag i saw
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.britishflag.us/downloads/print/uk-royal-navy1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.britishflag.us/united-kingdom-royal-navy.htm&h=614&w=1024&sz=84&tbnid=YWkR6BG1aSAJFM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=150&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgreat%2Bbritain%2Bnaval%2Bflags%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=great+britain+naval+flags&usg=__I5U7q5HFKHR5-ah4-t9vXSdqe1k=&sa=X&ei=-xK_TdqCAY-yuAPXsNm9BQ&ved=0CDoQ9QEwBQ

a you can see
take away the red cross
make the white blue...sew in some white stars
and there you got the 'flag' of a navel colonisation..

[a colony..under british/navy flag]
just like nz
just like arround 10 others that have the same blue tie-job
with the brit union flag..on the royal navy ensin
thus under navy law..

[admiralty law..the law of trade]
the values we got
are the values of a niave shanghied navvie
wearing his royal dickey arround his neck

made to walk the plank
at the captains..[of industries]..leisure
beg for licence
beg for leave
opresent your berthing certification

we emerged form the waters[our mothers waters]
landed...got issued with a berthing certification
its not xtian..[xtians walk upon the waters..not sail upon the seas]

but how do we tell people their all in the navy
all army brats

[why ya think govt can con-ascripts us at will?]
and charges us with deneying court 'orders'

Just to complete the picture, one under god, the flag you linked to is the White Ensign. It is the flag of the Royal Navy

The Blue ensign is (surprise) blue, without the cross, i.e. just with the Union flag in the top corner, and is flown when a seagoing vessel is under the command of a master of the rank of Lieutenant RN, or above, of the Royal Naval Reserves. So you might find a Blue Ensign flown by yachties, as well as merchant navy ships. But never the Royal Navy.

This is the one that has the stars added to it to make the Australian (and NZ) flag, not the White Ensign.

The Red Ensign - the Red Duster - is like the Blue Ensign (only red, of course) and is flown on all other British vessels, and as a courtesy flag by visiting ships.

thanks pericules..for your wisdoms

""This is the one
that has the stars added to it
to make the Australian (and NZ) flag""

""and is flown when a seagoing vessel
is under the command of a master of the rank
of Lieutenant RN,..*or above,""

so the gg
who commands the armed forces
should have authority to fly it..thus his
or her COMMISION would make interesting reading to see if

he/she...is""of the Royal Naval Reserves.""
how many female gov generals were woman...

by what authority did woman
get the right to join the navy..[the australia 'act'?]

anyhow curious..and curiouser

""So you might find a Blue Ensign flown by yachties,""
such as charles uncle?

""as well as merchant navy ships""
again the merchant thing.

""But never the Royal Navy...""

any citations?

ok unrebuttted points
a clear win

welcome to the army

""Truth integrity and reality has little value for some""

the TRUTH?
people cant handle the truth
and dont even bother reading that..those who do have.

Sorry one under god, was I ignoring you.

>>ok unrebuttted points a clear win welcome to the army<<

It goes like this:

1. I give you facts on flags

2. If you don't believe me, do some checking yourself.

3. If you then find I'm wrong, you can set me right.

Just blathering on about "how many female gov generals were woman" is not exactly a sound foundation for a discussion, now is it.

its because people get together

to join their rights/powrs/privledges
duties/oblication..and minds/bodies

that we form govt
govt works under a symbolic fiction
given its 'life' energy from those the represent

in reality many are dead fictions...faulse gods
such as symbols/flags/crowns/corperations/govts/forces

we have a question...are their sources
..based on xtian values?

in wrong xtian values

has xtian value been 'got to'
that xtians arnt licving under xtian values
but un patriotic values[faulse gods]
like flags

never the less they are a symbol
thats all..thus the history..of the symbol..
needs to prove its validity..

or else stand revealed as a faulse good[god]
missleading xtians into un xtian values

like war/myurder/hurt injury /victimisation of its sole reasion for being

serving to protect its trust

THE PEOPLE...

""Truth integrity and reality
has little value for some""

the TRUTH?
people cant handle the truth
and dont even bother reading that..those who do have.

as a matter of..*HRH's honour*..

anglican*pope..!

[after all her face is on the coin
ASSURING US..OF ITS TRUE WEIGHT's AND TRUE VALUE's]

lets recall
govt can create its own money

INTREST FREE...!

NO NEED FOR ANY TAXES
[let alone NEW taxes]

govts lending money..
to bailout..those they borrow it from
is clearly a scam..

[but why cant others see it]

here we have globally..govt...
forced by ww1
into issuing EXTRA money..via war-bonds[at interst]
than they had..inhand..in gold/silver/copper coin

bankers bought up the bonds
then demanded their payment..*[in full] in coin

of course govt didnt have the coin
[gold silver or copper]

so the bankers
...made govt declare bankruptcy*

...forced govt..to give control of
the federal reserve/treasury and the worlds mints
over to the bankers..[12 bankers]

the story is revealed in
'the creature from jeckle island'

bankers then issued
fiat[by deecree]..bank[bills]..[debitors/money

[paper 'bank'-bills]..controlled and issued
by the 12 banker's controling
the federal/reserve
[ie govt]..BANKRUPTCY*

in time..the gold bankers controled was stolen
[de monetised]by the bankers

next they stole silver..
[many will recall pounds
worth their weight* in shillings

and penny=weights
even dollar=weights]

many will also recall
the words on early bank notes
saying this note can be redemed at the commonwealthbank

*for one pound 'sterling'[silver]coin

[the silver was lost to the people
at decimalisation..when we gave up silver predeceimal coins

[now valued at 2 dollars..*a shilling]
ie the value..of its [sterling]..silver

for a nice new shinny decimal/ten cent NICKLE piece
that via inflation of nickle
and deflation of real value
...now contain's
near ten cents of nickle/value

yet still costing more..than a nice BANK-note
costing 7 cents each..to print[regardless of face value]

and soon
the only way to pay debt..shall be in credit
[issued and held by bankers..at the push of a button]

recall a one cent copper coin
it has 5 cents worth of copper in it

thus the bankers stole it all..
banking monetory/education/science/

DEAD/systems

and next they shall steal our nickle

but
lets recall
govt..can create...*its own money

INTREST FREE...!

..any nickle coin*
..should have*
equal value
to the origonal/coin..*in silver

[as constituted*..decreed/in our constitution]
decreed=*[fiat]

it is clear that ozzies have little or none
[idea about how an xyian nation would/could look]

lets face it
the first here were petty thieves
and prison guards..

who have been runing their prison
cartel franchise..oppresion system..here ever since

its the guards who got land grants
then free convicts to look afterr it[exploit]

when the white poor got free
the blacks worked for free

as there was inbreeding
we find many not only using the masters name

in short the blackfella maters
we let slip through the cracks
as them either..being white[or rich..or powerfull]...enough*

to pull of the next destraction away from values[xtian]
the list gets quite extensive..

but what encouraged this missive is seeing the story of the greek/poor
what came here following the 'war'...

then thought of all the OTHER refugies
who came here to escape from their homelands/war
or simply scoot..their homeland..with their loot..[booty/plunder/etc]

comming to oz...to live in the sun
and buy a share of the TWO/party..war-machine

we have mainly to credit war
and the rule of war mongers
go read the anzac day blurb

lets declare peace
not ever more..pieces
now there is a thing xtians
are supposed to be doing..how else to serve the suns god of life