Graham,
OLO has been, and continues to be an important voice, and one of the only places where there is real opportunity for socratic discussion.

Susan,
You have done a magnificent job. Few editors would be able to achieve and maintain the balance, quality and depth that you have.

Dear Graham.

Please do whatever you need to to keep Susan Prior. She is an outstanding editor. I have valued working with her over a number of years. Do hope you can find even a last minute reprieve!

Two points: The forum would be better utilised and patronised if it used V.Bulletin.
Secondly the best examples of successful subscription based political discussion boards are on the "unpopular" side of the spectrum.
Stormfront, whether you agree with their output or not is wildly successful and it's a model worth looking at, White nationalist don't usually get very much right but their internet activities are yards ahead of the competing groups.
Don Black can actually fund the whole operation through his sustaining members and "money bomb" events, he even owns his own server hardware. What's more he has no access to advertising revenue, you guys do, in reality the amount of traffic that Stormfront gets would, in other circumstances ensure high profile corporate sponsors.
You look at the Alexa ratings for OLO and it clearly has that kind of potential within Australia, last time I checked it was in the top 2000 sites.
Stormfront charges $50 a year and has monthly and 3 month plans,members get access to a private forum,a personal blog, bigger avatars and signature space.
You could easily find people to moderate and edit to lighten the load, what's more they'd pay you for the privilege via a sustaining members program.

Graham, we've had our differences of opinion and I've certainly strained the editorial muscle on occasion I suspect, but I do wish you the very best of luck with the changes you make, whatever they end up being.

We desperately need places like OLO to allow people to properly explore the implications of policy and the machinations of the various power blocs, both in the Parties and outside. There may be a plethora of blogs, but few aspire to the breadth of views expressed on OLO and even fewer achieve it.

My best wishes also to Susan. I'm sure she'll prosper mightily, whatever she chooses to do.

Good Luck with however it turns out Graham. I think OLO and sites like it are a step forward for civilisation. Thanks for all your efforts Graham and Susan. I wish I had some ideas. I hope you can keep going as strong as always.

Good Luck with whatever comes next Susan. You have been fantastic.

I am sorry to read that Susan Prior is leaving. I found Susan excellent value. If there is no viable alternative I wish her the very best.
I find OLO and Domain at least as valuable as Crikey to which I pay a senior's subscription. Surely a fee of about $40-60 per annum would not break many of us.

I enjoy looking in on OLO each day and would hate to see it disappear. One suggestion I could make is, to keep articles shorter, to one page preferably. Very seldom do I click on next page. If the writer cannot make his point by the end of the first page, I give up.

alfred

Dear Graham et al at Online Opinion,

You have all done an outstanding job, I have heartily enjoyed receiving your regular email links for years. I would be quite comfortable with a modest subscription-based model, as clearly advertising alone is not going to sustain your operation. I am amazed you have gone so far on such a shoestring already. I am looking forward to the new developments ... but please, do not drastically reduce the number, editing quality or length of opinions too much! You have just the right mix, it would be ill advised to offer lower quality/quantity and charge at the same time.

It seems fair that you approach us with your idea of what would be a fair subscription for you and your readers. Caroline Storm

Graham/Susan - as I've said before, OLO is a lot of fun. Even the extreme opinion pieces are amusing to dismantle.. I will also say that the GFC seems to have altered the media. the rest of the economy may be coming back, but advertisers are proving reluctant to plunge back into the media..

To be sure, Graham our Online is very valuable, but for one who began farming again after WW2, was lucky enough to have married a military girl who taught me plenty.

Certainly she taught me to be honest, and unlike me with the onset of the Great Depression had to leave school at 13 to drive a wagon team carting bagged wheat the lumpers needing to help me drag the heavy bags to the edge of the wagon to be then taken on the lumpers backs from there.

Then as well as my wife threatening to leave me in our earlier farming days if while clearing the land I did not leave more salmon gums to harmonise with the homestead.

And many years later in our retirement, told me that if I hung around the golf club bar too much, she'd again leave me.

So she forced me to study instead, and after gaining a Post Grad with Honours, began to worry ever since about our global media too much espousing a different point of view that is being taught in academia.

Possibly that was why our Johnny Howard tried to steer our academic reports the way he wanted, even pretty well closing down the Arbitration Court to bring in Work Choices.

So what I am now asking whether our Online thinking is based on academic reasoning, or on possibly fresher ideas that might not only be a waste of time, but possibly very dangerous?

Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA.

I would also like to wish OLO all the best for its future. I do believe that it is one of the best sites against all competition, including paid blogs by journalists in various newspaper sites. I also refer to the excellent feedback provided by comments, both critical and supportive at times. I certainly have gained considerable knowledge from very different perspectives offered on this site.

I also thank Susan Prior for all of here help in recent years in regards to feedback and advice about writing. From the start, Susan has always been very civil, helpful and supportive. I wish her well in her future endeavors.

Given that so much of the MSM is controlled by the like of people like Murdoch, it makes it even more important that independent online sites continue.

New Matilda has gone and WD is only a shadow of its former self, so the importance of OLO and other smaller, independent blogs has increased. Australian citizens must be allowed to continue to discuss issues relevant to our lives even if there is much disagreement on most subjects.

As to charging, NM tried it, dropped it, and still went out backwards. There are so many free blogs that it may not appeal to most people.

Good luck Graham with the revamp, and best wishes to Susan, who has done a great job.

Like other here I'd be happy to pay a modest subscription, though I'd be sad to lose the contributions from occassional visitors to the forum pages - the regulars do tend to make the same points over again (me included, I confess).

On Line Opinion, says it all really - a very good site. I hope they sort it out.

David G, it looks like New Matilda is coming back too:

http://newmatilda.com/2010/10/08/did-you-miss-us-new-matilda-way-back

Second post - you also need some off site advertising. You wouldn't believe the number of (intelligent) people I have spoken to about OLO, and they have never heard of you. Admittedly I live in Adelaide. Still ! Run articles that get 100 comments, then write up a media release about the controversy to be discovered at the OLO web site. Write up a media release describing how many controversies,issues and authors are to be found at OLO. Run a competition with the prize being "dinner with Graham and Susan". (Competition could be for the zaniest mid-city media-attracting PR stunt in every major city. For the prize, you'll just have to fly around, but I'm sure you'd get folk to drive you to and from airports and put you up overnight, and such like.) Run a competition in every major campus for the best articles on such and such a topic. Prize to be the guest editorship of OLO for one week, under guidance of course. Advertise for two interns - you'll teach them the editorial world in return for their labour power. While this would never replace Susan, it would lighten her load a bit, and make life more fun in the process. More as it occurs to me.

OK - First, figure out a salary package that will keep Susan with OLO. Second, address the issue of how to raise the money to pay everyone whose work contributes to OLO's existence. Rather than charging a sub, maybe work on the idea of 'added value' areas that people will be happy to pay for.I suggest grouping articles into topic bunches, and providing on CD under the over-arching topic. For example, all articles on the environment, all articles on education, all articles on law and the court system, all articles on religious issues, all articles on family issues, etc. Run conferences (maybe simultaneously in each capital city) on the same topics, and make it necessary for speakers to have addressed all the previously published articles in that area.
Charge $20 per CD, and include a 'free CD' for all conference attendees. Don't get into the hospitality area - have nice old-fashioned conferences where visitors can bunk down in houses of friends. This means that available cash can go to OLO. Charge about $80, and provide big print name tags and 2-3 social hours where people can mingle. Have other items available for purchase at the conference venue. Work out what will sell readily. Include a couple of 'open' sessions for discussion from the floor. Consider 2-3 films relevant to topic - and charge entry per film. - well that's a start. I'm sure I could think of more if I had more time, but I've got to do other things right now.

All the best to Susan Prior, who did a superb editing job. And best of luck with the next iteration...

The loss of Susan Prior is much to be regretted both for OLO itself and for Susan personally.

Speaking as a complete moron on the issues raised in this sad article I suggest it might be worth considering the possibility of some sort of voluntary subscription. By that I mean some insertion for each article writer and each 'commenter'asking if they would like to may sub of a few dollars. I know that I could chuck in some cash now. But the fact is that I do not. Maybe if I was asked - cheerfully - something like 'have you put in your voluntary sub this year? I might actually do it because I would know that I was not alone in doing so. OLO could mention how many subs came in last week which would keep us in good heart! Or make us feel guilty and do something about it.
Sorry for the ramble. I just think that something between a compulsory membership fee and the present situation might be possible. Now the great OLO tradition happens - I get told what a dumb idea it is. And that really is the great thing about and why it is worth keeping it going preferably with Susan.

What did we do before OLO came along ? Graham and Susan, thank you for your dedication and even-handedness, although sometimes it really must seem like herding cats.

Eyejaw's idea of 'voluntary subscriptions' might help: just work out an annual figure, like $ 50, i.e. $ 1 per week, crack the whip every so often and we might come good :)

Joe Lane

Graham,I've a suggestion to how you can make OLO viable and independant.I'm willing to pay 20 cents for each comment I make.The advantage of this is that OLO can remain independant of Govt/Corporate interests,but also,this improves the quality.People will really think before they post,hence the intellectual standard of your site will improve,thus you will have a competitive edge.

Why not charge more for General Discussions?

dear online opinion - really saddened to see susan prior go - and wishing her the best of luck in the future (which i am sure will snap-up her great skills and disposition asap!). it is important that online opinion should continue so looking forward to future ideas and issues. every good wish, jas

Susan:
You have been an indomitable spirit and your skills have been a great contribution to OLO. I wish you all the best wherever the future leads you.

Graham:
OLO is invaluable in our society and must go on to even bigger and better things. I think some sort of user-payment system must be introduced, but I doubt whether it will work if it is voluntary. Arjay's idea of a payment-per-post in the forum seems worth consideration, although that alone will probably be insufficient.

Anyway, congratulations to both of you for a wonderful job over the last few years.

Stephen Crabbe

Like others, I feel concern at the departure of Susan Prior. There is an elusive genuine "balance" acheived here, in contrast to most msm, that ensures ideas are prioritised. If Prior, as editor, is responsible for this, her departure would constitute a serious write off, Fairfax-like, of intellectual capital not accounted for in the books, particularly for the future.
Yet my gut feeling is that blogging has moved beyond its first flush going back half a dozen year. Something big like an election draws bloggers from their respective tribal lairs, but at the moment, in the wake of the protracted mid year election and with Xmass on the horizon, it seems blogs generally are marking time, just now.
I think its a Sunday morning after a Saturday night for bloggers, anyway. Most hoped that blogging could "make a difference".
But the dominant political formations seem to have reacted by withdrawing even further, when it comes to upfront conversations about policy and other political issues, in response to public pressure.
People had hoped for a definitive change in politics after 2007, but that project in turn, whatever its accomplishments, has become mired in indecision, compromise not always for the best of reasons, and a consequent welter of half measures designed by politicians like Conroy.
People despair terminally now, of a healthy change in the way politics is done in this country and have retreated back to apathy and hedonism, tinged with defeatism/ fatalism.

Take a leaf out of GetUp's book, and have regional and locality groups who meet regularly to discuss pieces in OLO - and who pay annual memberships to you.I suggest $30 a year, and weekly or fortnightly meetings in homes by rotation. Each meeting to have a lead speaker who provides a critical summary of the article that week that most appealed to him/her. Then open discussion. Should generate new articles as well as membership fee capital. Call it The Talkfest Network Club

Well Paul Walter:If we think that OLO is worth saving,then we need to put our money where our passions dwell.I think that OLO can survive with some clever imput from it's supporters.

Dear Graham,

My day, which started off brightly and well, was suddenly darkened and dulled by the news of Susan’s departure from OLO. Would that I had enough money to send a nice big six figure cheque to help ease OLO’s problems in the same way as OLO helped cure mine.

Not being able to get much more than fifty metres on my own legs and because of my wife’s onset of dementia, OLO not only helped re-invigorate me it also gave me the opportunity of doing something I had long thought lost, that of travelling, albeit it mentally, to talk to and receive comments from all kinds of people..

More to the point what can be done now. Clearly OLO needs money so let us stop talking and start doing. If $50 from all contributors and all others who read OLO will help, let us get our cheque books out and send it. By all means send your ideas to Graham but send the cheque first. Lets keep the financially stricken OLO afloat until Graham and his advisers can devise not just a rescue plan but also a plan that will ensure OLO’s future and may also hasten the return of Susan.

Dear friends,

Thanks for those comments. I am taking them all in, but as I'm in Singapore at a conference I'm not going to respond too fully at the moment.

You can donate money at http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/membership/, and we have some plans for using money donated to build the new version of OLO. Happy to take some cash now on that basis, but we will be running a proper campaign.

I'm sure Susan is bouyed by your comments. She'll be using these I'm sure as references, and if anyone knows of any openings for her, that would be great. She's been a good friend, and it is going to be a little lonely around here without her.

Could be hard on contributors as they will have to deal with my "tough love" approach to editing. :(

I wouldn't be too sad about things though. It's not as though we're going away. Our economics have always been better than Crikey or New Matilda's because we were leaner in the first place. Crikey prospers, and NM seems to be on some sort of life support. There's no risk of us going down, and every chance of building something even better.

Keep bowling the ideas up and we'll keep talking about them.

Graham
Although colleagues on my domain contribute to OLO, I don't ... for reasons you are well aware. Nevertheless, I still read the diverse opinions (and that is what they are, articles or no) that make OLO so good and, if I can add, so important in today's medium of 'self expression'. I can only congratulate you in what you have tried to achieve, and hopefully, in its continuance. On a personal level, I have no idea where the MSM are going but I think the format of OLO is fantastic, notwithstanding that as chief editor and moderator, you should not involve yourself in the quite often robust discussions - you have your own blog for that - you do have to bite your tongue.

To Susan, well done - we can only admire your editorial skills you brought to OLO, you will be sadly missed, really. Best wishes to you and your loved ones, yet, I have no doubt that the forces that be will be with you ... hang in there!

It would be great if our National Broadcasters had someone like Susan P working there The panel here on Olo isn't stacked like Q&A and other leftist agenda shows which the ABC revels in. Both GrahamY and Susan P have done a great job in my opinion.

Gday Graham,
I would like to suggest a survey to glean feedback and ideas.

For me, while I like the articles, some of the posters have become so uncontrolably nasty and personal that I rarely visit these days.

I like a robust debate but detest the way that discussion can be stymied by obnoxious bullies. I would like to suggest that a set of house rules are put forward and adhered to.

At one stage I did consider contributing an article for possible inclusion but the unbridled nastiness by some posters, particulary on topics on Indigenous Australians, has made me reconsider.

I do note that recently there has been a bit of oversight but am not sure it is enough to entice me back as a regular reader, poster, or as a possible contributor.

While OLO is a good format and offers a range of topics I hate the way that some people have bullied out others

Good luck Susan P in whatever comes next, you will be a great loss to OLO.

The idea of a yearly subscription with a free trial for a set period (maybe six weeks) for new users to get the feel of OLO similar to the Crikey site, might be worth considering. There could also be a discounted subscription for pensionsers, students and other card holders, so as to keep OLO as open to a wide variety of participants as possible.

OLO is a great site with an array of viewpoints enhanced by an eclectic bunch of writers and particpants. OLO articles are often distributed around for information in a number of high profile departments with much discussion albeit informally. It is one of a number of growing opportunities for people to discuss ideas on an open forum and that is a real plus in a democracy where often the citizens feel disenfranchised from the executive arm of government.

Hi Graham

If you could supply a Post Office Box I would be grateful in order to donate, particularly given that I do not have a credit card and will be using a Money Order.

All year I have wanted to donate [on my mind] especially considering the amount of interaction OLO has allowed me since joining [just reading other peoples' stories and comments is fantastic for starters]!!

Thank you Susan, Graham and all Staff for a wonderful Forum.

Kindest wishes.

For a quick cashflow input, why not look at your list of contributors - if we were all asked to put in $5 per article published, on a one-off basis, my calculations are that this would be a considerable sum of money. I'm not sure how this would work with republished material, but most of the articles on OLO are originals. There would be a strong incentive to respond positively to such a request, because we would all like to be published again. If it were a one-off deal, that would stop the messiness associated with forking $5 at the time of future article publication. It would not prevent you from making a similar request say in another five years down the track. I think this strategy would be superior to, and more productive than, a general appeal for support. Such appeals are very common, and very ignorable.

OLO must flourish- there are too few decent forums in Australia.

Graham- the donation site crashed so I will make a direct debit.

Suggestions:I would promote OLO more vigorously if some of the bloggers were better behaved. Some of the threads become downright embarrassing. Robust debate is one thing- insult and innuendo just subvert the site- yes- subvert. It's a growing strategy of the anti-democrats to sully the general environment around the beacons of reason to discourage the second row of supporters. I guess that many of the OLO-slaggers just think that they are acting on their own impulses and exercising free speech, but if they care to look around and reflect for a moment, they would see that they are being used as pawns.

We need INFORMED opinion so that our collective intelligence is greater than the sum of the individuals. The "information" does not need to be scholarly- many people have valuable personal experiences that can add to a discussion. We need to encourage that.

We also need to encourage authors to have a "second iteration"- based on the input from the discussion thread- if the opinions are worth anything, then the author will incorporate them in his/her revision. One of the problems with most blog sites is that there is no effective summation, response or cumulation of the contributed wisdom. The New York Times is an exception. It does not have to presume to be definitive. Maybe if the author can't do it, then volunteers could. My cyber-hand is up for that one.

I think that these suggestions would help differentiate OLO from the echo chamber of blogsites and help its economics as well.

OLO is a most admirable site, and unique in the editors' willingness to publish topics across the board.

Susan Prior is an exceptional talent, and as a contributor, I will miss her greatly. She is firm, and unfailingly polite and generous, and though I've never met you, Susan, I quickly developed trust in your editorial judgement.

If OLO is in need of editorial input, I can offer some time, and considerable experience.

Thanks for this journal - it is a gem.

Jennifer Wilson.

I thought Susan was an excellent editor. All the best.

Perhaps OLO could ramp up its sales of articles to other pulications, acting in that context as an agent I suppose for various writers.

Susan

Your vision, impartiality and high level competence was the primary foundation for OLO's success.

Your courtesy and communication skills - outstanding.

Online discussion sites are in their infancy - I have no doubt that you will take your experience gained to greater and better than OLO - look how Crikey has gone from strength to strength, despite the resignation of its founder.

@Graham.

"Tough love" implies you believe you are ruling a group of truants, there is no indication of respect for your varied contributors/subscribers with such language.

While you may feel as if you are herding cats, you are in communication with many intelligent people, who are often well-informed, educated and have the right to disagree with you on a forum such as this. This forum is a wonderful format, would be a shame for OLO to lose what significance it has achieved. May you learn and not stagnate.

I wish you luck.

Thank you so much for all the lovely comments on here and the huge raft of emails I have received as well, I have been really touched and incredibly flattered! I am very sad to be leaving OLO after all this time. For me it has been a pleasure: who gets to read more than 10,000 words of fascinating stuff everyday and gets paid to do it?

I have seen many authors come to OLO with their first attempts at writing and then head off to bigger and better things – and that has been very satisfying for me.

Over the years I have read opinions on things that I wouldn’t have considered, I have seen ideas debated and discussed with passion, and I have learned a great deal in the process. I have also learned that OLO is not about its articles, it is about a community of people sharing ideas. I think it is important for all of us, even if we don’t at first blush agree with an argument (or even agree after much consideration!) that we should still respect others’ opinions. I think OLO allows that, although sometimes I do despair at the quality of the discussion on the forum – that I have to say!

I must also thank Graham for giving me a go with little more to my CV than abundant enthusiasm and determination to make a go of a new career started mid-life. He is an ideas man and is often ahead of the curve. He allowed me to work from home when it was still a very rare concept, which in turn allowed me to live more cheaply in Toowoomba and to balance single parenthood of young daughters with full time work. Thanks Graham.

I have become friends with so many authors and I will miss them. You can keep tabs on me on Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/susan.prior60) if you wish and hopefully I will pop my head up again in some other editing role in the future.

In six years, quick back of envelope calcs tell me, I have dealt with more than 3,500 authors and edited more than 9,000 articles!

Thank you: it has been a privilege. Susan

Susan,

Thanks for you advice, and I wish you well for your future.

Good on you Susan,

Professional editors of your high calibre are hard to find.

Kind regards

Cheryl

Dear Graham,

Your dreams, your commitment, your sacrifices, remind me of Giovanna Berneri who, single handed, since the collapse of fascism until her death, ran a monthly publication, Volonta’.

Her business was her reader’s business and a model for any man of vision.

In the last page she printed the financial transactions of the month, including her salary, and the balance at hand.

But she did not deal in irresponsible, dreamy opinions from which the gutter-press derives its power.

Her business was ’verifiable and undeniable facts’ and the questioning of administrators of which, long ago, I talked to you.

The many who are wronged are prepared to meet the costs of questioning and the disclosures would be positively informative, and a worry to the masters of silence and misinformation.

Albert Triann

OLO:

Thanks for the entertainment over the years: Toughen up AKA, this is not a site for the faint hearted and an opinion is that, an opinion. Unsavoury expressions of opinion can be easily ignored. More articles on Indigenous affairs please!

Thanks OLO, Susan/Graham and all. Santa has been down the OLO chimney and left a little something from the North Pole. Great “wine and bikkies” (articles)

I've enjoyed the comments from both Diver Dan and Aka - whatever genuinely makes you think is okay with me. And yes, Indigenous affairs is crying out for more discussion, more debate - and who is to do that ? Why, the contributors to OLO, of course !

There is not much else around really, Larvatus Prodeo on the Left, Catallaxy on the right. OLO embraces both sides, and quite properly. Long may it allow us all to contribute and to comment and, with civility and good humour, tear strips off each other.

Yes, some of the comment posts hurt, at least for about 10 seconds, but I find 99.99% of them acceptable in regards to my surfing of articles and comments.

I do not think much is achieved by censuring, even if some comments are a bit loony.

When people are excluded, they may have even more reason to hate the world. I think we can learn something from virtually all people.

To be frank, with my own struggle to be a half-decent commentator, i have learned much more from this site than from working at other so-called established institutions where diversity of opinion or discussion of reality appears to be largely absent.

Why not have a minimum donation of $20.00 via credit card for anyone to post a comment? At 20 cents a comment this allows for 100 comments to be made.The quality of comment will impove and quantity will fall.

I think that Graham and Susan have developed something quite unique.So long as standards remain high,people will pay for a quality product even in a recession.

Thank you for your advice diver dan, but I am already tougher than most.

Because I do not suffer fools gladly, when they stoop to sheer vitriol, it does not mean I am weak.

I do object to people who trot our dribble instead of considered thought.

I recall one instance when I suggested a link to a person, who was able to change their stance once they had bothered to become informed. That was rewarding.

Still I suppose some people just like to live in ignorance and nastiness but I don't have to tolerate it - I just visit OLO less often and comment less.

Given the nasty diatribe that some posters are prone to, can you give me one good reason why I or others should offer an article to OLO. This unfettered vitriol just reduces the article that are made available to OLO and its readers/commentators.

By the way my name is Aka, not AKA.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11090#185882

Aka, i use a lot of vitriol myself, which i try to address towards the ideas of some commenter's & towards Radical, Extremists while avoiding naming anybody personally, if possible.

This problem crept into the Australian Polity approximately 50 years ago, you will find it explained in this little documentary video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

Graham Y, if i can offer my time for free i will. I may also be able to find others who are willing to help out on a voluntary basis.

May i propose that many people are tired of the "Major Mistake" political parties. If you can offer a platform to minor parties or new political lobby groups that are not fake shop fronts for the majors like "getup" is for the Red/green/getup/labour Communist Coalition then this Will bring new blood, notoriety or publicity for OLO.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11090#185861

Arjay, your original idea was perhaps more practical. Something like "Twit"er where comments are an SMS charged up to your mobile phone account @ 20 cents, half to the Telco & half to OLO.

Good luck Graham Y, OLO is the best open forum on the net anywhere.

BTW, i notice QUT is a sponsor/contributor, is OLO part of the QUT school of journalism?

Do you get journalism academics & students using OLO as a platform for training & practicing their craft?

Aka, I am inclined to agree with you concerning ONLINE OPINION.
Although the over-opiniated arguments can be a lot of fun, one wonders how well they'd go in academia.

Could say in my experience at Curtin Uni' they certainly would not.

Also believe that while ONLINE can depend a bit on wisecracking, there should be basic rules, but somehow certainly with a different touch than academia.

Regards, BB

Bushbred,

Well, there you go ! OLO is a sort of antidote to the careful, colorless, bland pap that passes for discussion and debate amongst timeservers in the universities, where SURELY it should be taking place !

Although I'll put aside what I suspect was Aka's attack about my ignorance and nastiness, I must admit that OLO provides the arena for such observations. I have to say seriously that I have learnt a great deal from the sparring between participants, about issues that I had considered to be open-and-shut. Participating has certainly forced me to clarify issues and positions.

And surely most of us enjoy the exchange of insults, ad hominems, and hurtful invective, as all good Aussies should: it's fun to see people do their block ;)

Joe

Aka not AKA:

I think aka, you evince either paranoia or a pedantic disposition to complain of “case” sensitivity, surely that example reinforces my comment above to toughen up: Facts are the subject matter of indigenous affairs is socially controversial. (Your sensitivities are forgiven, read on)!

The trick in negative response, I believe, is to insult the art and forgive the artist. Base language in critique is not art; art of critique is to perfect the debasing: That is the game-play in question here in OLO.

On Line Opinion' - the next iteration.

Oh, belt up you pack of wingers. I put all sorts of crap on here and you deal with it quite well, I must say. smile.

Look! I put the fight for the under-dog pitch as a means of balance, and hey! we all need a little fun now and again..., I mean... its the spice of life that does make the difference in the way of braking up the norm so to speak.

It makes and takes all kinds to form a world and I am only one.........and some would say thank god for that. SMILE.lol. Its like your all playing for sheep stations or something.....Hello! ITS AN OPINION SITE!

I think hates is little strong of a word, but some in this community have tested my.....too the living end with some, but hey! Intelligence is only Intelligence when you use it and some people in very high places just never do.

You might of guess from times gone by, that my basic drive sits with three main topics.

1. population

2. evolution/human or not.

3. And the lie of religion. or better put, its used by date. smile.

See! Times are changing at such a fast rate, today news is gone in a flash! and time to dwell on such constructive thought or opposite, is not always at our finger-tips.
You might say its learning on the run.

There is an old saying!

If its too hot in the kitchen! GET OUT!

AKa....I hope I spell it right...smile....

Here is a little song for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGPYSE4nXUM&feature=fvw

And when you drive past me..... smile.

I does make my day better.

Thanks

TTM

BY the way! Thats how I really look. SMILE.

This is runners and OUG,s mental view of me, apparently.

The green death.....Jaws theme.lol.

I think this might be better just for you.

http://www.google.com.au/url?url=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D02zOk_LQCkY&rct=j&sa=X&ei=VJ-1TLHUIMHBcfnlkKYI&ved=0CBoQuAIwAQ&q=don%27t+worry+be+happy+youtube&usg=AFQjCNHhYYXsCldbWpWwXtpRwN-UoH6hbw&cad=rja

All the best.

\TTM>

Thank you for your reflections Joe/Loudmouth and Formersnag - I ignore you if you ramble on (no offence) or snap back if I feel like it. I hate to tell you that you two are not the reason for my comments, as frustrating as they can be sometimes.

There are some posters though who go too far and tend to ride Indigenous posters or people whose views indicate thay are allies of, or at least don't have the venom towards, Indigenous Australians.

This uncontrolled vitriol simply drives people away and greatly diminsishes the opportunity for intellegent discussion. Unfortunately OLO is getting the reputation of being a bit of a redneck haven because of this unbridled trolling. I do note that the worst ones have not commented on this post.

diver dan, thank you for forgiving me my sensitivities :)
I use Aka because it means grandmother and I have seen another person using the AKA, as in Also Known As, in other posts.

While I know that Indigenous issues is a socially controversial issue, the overt racism that some posters come out with does nothing for conversation. Why should people visit the site when such pap becomes the norm.

I do think that there can be better housekeeping rules of engagement.

think than move, you do make me smile. I don't know much about poetry but you write like your words are meant to be sung. Sorry I don't do youtube very well, slow connection, so I didn't see the clips. Maybe later :)

Bushbred, thanks for your support but I would not like to see OLO get too academic. I would like to see it gain in readers, commentators and authors from a wide range of experiences and educational backgrounds. The diversity is great.

The reason for my suggestion was that there was an article on OLO written by a new Indigenous contributor and an email went australia wide on Indigenous email networks urging people to read and offer positive comment - to support this person. The author and the article were mercilessly villified by posters and only 2 Indigenous people commented on it - myself and one other. You can imagine the impression and comments made by Indigenous people and their colleagues who visited the site.

These first time readers will be difficult to entice back after seeing such unadulterated malice from a select few posters.

Hey that's OK Aka, I find that the topic, which Iam in full agreement of and a fair go for "all" Australians, will always gets My full attention.

Indigenous people and their colleagues who visit this site are always welcome in my books. Some of the smartest people in places like( Well, I'd better not say since they pay me well ) are biggest drop-kicks on the planet, and I know what and how they think. ( dark-horse ) smile.

Your posts are at least open and honest, plus well delivered with the sting of all that's balanced.

Thanks

TTM

The discussion has moved from the central issue of the survival of OLO to the mildly tangential issue of the vitriol of posters detracting from the value of the site. I'd actually prefer if we kept focus on how to ensure OLO's survival, but will toss in a comment on the 'debate' in the forum, because it has beeen mildly irritating personally. I've had five articles up on OLO, on early reading, early learning, importance of the early years, etc. First article copped the lot - I was just promoting my small business, ideas had no merit, etc. Then when Fraser Mustard was in town I took the trouble to attend his lectures, and write up a critical summary of his talks - yes, not least because I knew he was arguing in favour of many of the things I had been advocating. Well - the difference was AMAZING. No comments at all - and I got myself listed in an Education Department bibliography. Well, well - no clearer evidence of the non-intellectual nature of the antagonistic commentariat on OLO was needed. What to do about it - well, nothing! The articles can stand on their merit. Anyone who reads comments rather than articles will always be swinging in the winds of popular judgment, presumably lacking confidence in this own powers of discrimination and assessment. In the end they are of little significance. Meantime we should brainstorm some more on how to keep Graham's baby vigorous and financial, so articles can keep on reaching the wider shores of OLO's readership.

Graham's opening question in the article is "How do you make online journalism pay?". Toward the end of the article Graham observes "We do build very good websites, and we get paid for our research from time to time."

Whether or not it presently pays (enough), OLO's online journalism is both outside MainStreamMediaWorld's editorial orbit, and, at the viewers' choice, interactive. Therein lies its attraction, I would think, to a large and unrestricted potential reader/viewership. However, it must be recognised that all who are simply viewers, and the bulk of registered users, are effectively, and in the latter case by deliberate choice, incognito. This largely incognito and partly interactive readership the article recognises as being a community, with the words, "in our redesign we will be trying to harness the power of our community to make our site better and stronger".



I wonder is it possible for OLO to sell paid enhancements to this already, if not captive, largely loyal, potential market?



For example, I note that in the little row of icons that displays beneath the posting timestamp there is provision for an icon that, on mouse-over, displays as 'visit this user's home page'. Most registered users do not take advantage of this feature for the reason, I suspect, that they have no home page or website of their own. Was it to be possible to have a website hosted under the auspices of OLO under my online persona of 'Forrest Gumpp', I could be interested in paying for it depending upon the cost involved.

I should imagine that it should be legally possible for such a hosted website to shelter under the existing OLO protections as to anonymity and yet still comply with any legislated requirements as to traceability imposed upon any ISP.

I also imagine that the availability of a basic 'template' user website could hold the web design costs to OLO down, whilst providing an opportunity for what I suspect is a largely non-digitally-technically-literate user demographic to enhance their interactivity with the OLO site.

Just a thought.

The focus on blogger vitriol could be seen as an "emergent property" of the chaos that characterises OLO discussion threads. The essays are rather like Rorschach tests or tea leaves, where the viewer reads into what is really on their mind. Graham's inkblot or tea leaves was "finance"- we read into it "blogger behaviour". I wonder why?

It's a simple connection- many people are aching for a site where a diversity of opinions can be expressed in a variety of ways- but within the ethos of democracy and the "Australian fair go". It is one of the paradoxes of democracy that we must allow a voice to those who advocate the overthrow of democracy. But this ethos, I think, was foundered on the assumption that the dissenters would play by the same basic rules as the democratic majority- ie speak for themselves in a civil voice that has its foundations in reason.

However, what we are seeing is a tacit banding together of mean-spirited rednecks who constantly abuse OLO's democratic principles. As I have said before in these columns, much of this behaviour reminds me of the "deep south" of my youth in the '50s- and for those who weren't there, have a look at the movie "Wake in Fright". Perhaps these people have- and think that it is a training video.

Who wants to hang around with people whose first reflex is to be abusive and have no respect for the principles of reason that underpin democracy? Only other abusers- the majority figuratively poke their heads in on this front-bar brawl and head off for some quiet salon. They'd like a bit of bawdiness, but not a constant exulting of ignorance and adulation of tyrants.

Clean up OLO and you'll get masses of fair-minded Aussies paying whatever it takes to keep democracy alive.

Forest gump,

I was told by one opinion page editor that the newspaper was mostly interested in people with names and so on. I was not that impressed.

That is what I liked about Paddy McGuiness when editor of Quadrant. He published four articles by myself, even though I was a labourer (albeit now with a PhD).

I know too many very ordinary academics that get regular gigs in newspapers, which both pisses me of and is amusing. Some love telling you how good they are and how poor everyone else is, but I would love to see many of them put their articles on OLO and face the audience.

That is why I support minimal censuring on this site and hope Graham does not change this characteristic too much. This is despite Jedimaster raising some good points which may influence advertising decisions. It is always hard to get any balance right, especially for a site that represents a variety of viewpoints.

AKA, I believe (or hope) that 99% of people who participate on this site are not racist and do have sympathy for Aboriginal issues, but I would argue that issues on race are divisive and open discussion is still the best way to addressing key issues.

At the risk of responding further somewhat tangentially to Graham's article, I note the post by Jedimaster, of Thursday, 14 October 2010 at 7:15:52 AM, in which he said:

"The essays are rather like Rorschach tests
or tea leaves, where the viewer reads into [them]
what is really on their mind. Graham's inkblot
or tea leaves was "finance"- we read into it
"blogger behaviour". I wonder why?"

and later:

"Who wants to hang around with people whose
first reflex is to be abusive and have no respect
for the principles of reason that underpin democracy?
Only other abusers- the majority ..... [would] like
a bit of bawdiness, but not a constant exulting
of ignorance and adulation of tyrants."

I agree that such abusiveness lowers the tone of the site, and probably deters some viewers from becoming either or both registered users or contributors. I also note that, especially since the raising of posting limits, as Graham foreshadowed might happen, many abusive-style posts have tended to be "nasty, brutish, and short", if I quote from memory correctly.

Perhaps the issue of such 'blogger behaviour' can be linked to 'finance' via the requiring of the lodgement of a 'good behaviour bond' by those judged to be errant users as a condition for continued posting rights. There could be a scale of fines whereby such deposits could be gradually confiscated if breaches of Forum rules or etiquette continue to be made.

Appropriately tuned, the principle of 'abuser pays' could be, perhaps even somewhat humorously, combined with that of deterrance of bad Forum behaviour on the part of would-be genuine participants. For those posting for no other reason than to deliberately degrade the Forum in the eyes of viewers, such would impose a (hopefully prohibitive) cost.

I would also endorse Jay of Melbourne's recommendation of vBulletin software so far as functionality is concerned. Whilst I have never visited the 'Stormfront' site, I would observe that despite their obvious focus upon open-source software, the (half-million-plus members) Ubuntu Forums themselves use vBulletin. Don't know about price.

I don't think charging people to post will work very well as that will require some type of payment that might or will expose their identity. People have a right to stay anonymous if they want .. I understand why some people want a closed forum, it keeps out the rednecks as someone put it - and clearly no one wants to hear an opinion that is different to their own /sarc of course.

That's the attraction for many, the fact that there is such a wide range of ideas and personalities. I hope you don't inhibit that.

I'm not surprised that the posters who are regularly intolerant and quick to accuse others of various crimes, are complaining of intolerance and want some form of prohibition on people they don't agree with. In fact these people often get reflected to them exactly what they hand out and are completely oblivious to it. They are the people most likely to gain from being exposed to contrary opinions and understand that out in the community there is a wide range of thought.

Most of us learn things and enjoy the cut and thrust of argument on this forum, if things ramp up, maybe you should look at your own posts for the reason it has happened - it's not always someone else's fault.

Thanks Graham, it's an interesting and educational site, the interactions can be stark reflections of the tensions in our society

You might try a donation system, it works in some areas.

Hi rpg,

I second your support and enjoyment of the cut and thrust of vigorous debate.

As for contributing funds, there is the 'Donate' button up there - and most of us have more than one email address, so our anonymity as contributors to discussions can be preserved, while we can still contribute funds. Twenty cents per contribution would be quite fair - $ 20 for one hundred contributions. That might keep some of us contribution junkies down to a bare two dollars a day (i.e. ten contributions) which would provide far more bang for your buck than $ 2 on the pokies. Or a stubbie. Or half a meat pie.

Joe

Well GY, I would of thought at the commencing of a site like this' from day one, a 2 dollar per e.mail address would of been the winning move. I mean, just count the number of people in the A to Z department of user,s and the accounts of that start up time frame from then till now....well, I haven't counted all of the members list, but I could take a wild guess on how much the bank-managers smile and yours for that matter, by now, it would be very hard to remove I'd say.

And whats 2 dollars?

If you can afford a computer, to say the user cant find that much....that's going to be a little hard to believe.

Two dollars per renewed Email address.

I don't think that's asking too much.

Do you?

All the best.

TTM>

I also want to thank Susan and express regret at her going. On the several occasions I have submitted articles she has been courteous and very helpful. These are qualities in short supply in many places.

Des Griffin

The problem with setting an annual subscription fee is that it then has to be administered, with someone (presumably a paid person) having to maintain records of who has paid, when renewals are required, what to do about refunds, etc.... The simplest way may be for each page of OLO to have a donation button via PayPal or direct debit. Personally, I wouldn't pay $50 a year to subscribe to OLO but I'd happily make a $10 donation if it continued to maintain its current high standards.

I haven't read through all the comments and hence may have missed someone else's suggestion, but is there any chance Bris-based OLO members could actually meet face-to-face to help discuss its future? Surely BrisInstitute would be happy to do so Graham? I think much good could come from it and frankly, am a little over trying to see issues like this be resolved through murky blogs...

Thanks for the news Graham and thanks for the good work Susan.
All the Best for the Future. Cheers,kj .

I second Forrest Gumpp's suggestion here:
<Was it to be possible to have a website hosted under the auspices of OLO under my online persona of 'Forrest Gumpp', I could be interested in paying for it depending upon the cost involved.

I should imagine that it should be legally possible for such a hosted website to shelter under the existing OLO protections as to anonymity and yet still comply with any legislated requirements as to traceability imposed upon any ISP.

I also imagine that the availability of a basic 'template' user website could hold the web design costs to OLO down, whilst providing an opportunity for what I suspect is a largely non-digitally-technically-literate user demographic to enhance their interactivity with the OLO site.>

An excellent idea that surely could prove lucrative for OLO if properly managed.
Giving members a higher profile (which presumably they could edit and maintain to some degree) in this way would also, in all likelihood, encourage them to maintain their credibility in terms of the quality and tone of their contributions. At the moment OLOers are often no more than transients, including their comments, and surely perceive themselves as little more than that, excepting of course the article contributors. Being thus loosely "affiliated" with and recognised by OLO is likely to encourage loyalty and improved contribution (including articles), as well as to entice new members to "invest" in the same way and become "full-members". Spin-offs might include greater credibility for OLO (more money for research).

Of course, Graham, you'd have to pay Forrest Gumpp royalties for coming up with the idea :-)
It might be the answer t

the email refused to send?
so hope this reaches you now

things being what they are...most people google for info...
that intrests them
i have done this a few times..
so know playing the google has good fruits

the trick is to be right up there
in the early stages... of the news BREAKING

have specialist [i hate term moderators..
so will use the term REPORTERS,,,or spotters...
who are monitoring all the media

paid a percentage ...of the visiter numbers..[commision]..
for getting the facts on the board virtually... as they happen!

[then keeping the update/...and histry of the info ...clear and concise]

summerised but able to be expanded upon easilly quickly...
and importantly to be commented upon
[that gets the visiter numbers rolling over/..but you possable realise all this allready]

thing is we have a great concept with olo...
[minimum overlording/censorship and no life time ban's]

we loose people by banning them/..
not only that but those following their raves
its about numbers grayham...some of us are time rich
..but wealth poor

the olo concept should be ...having the best of the best
like good reports on 7.30 report..or lateline..and the other media's

i get great info from listening to bbc while i sleep
at least a few points ...that would make great listening to
or worth a topic to catch the google crowd

[put in one place to help those time poor]

its about putting all the info in one place...fast..
live time
with no urge ...for the reader..
to search google for the latest..or its historic background

they find you via googling..then stay because its all in one place
be it vision/print or voice or simply social commentary

so media compatable media players would take a few links
[but i have an old system...media refuses to play off many links]
so youtube type embedding might be benefitial

as you know i have had bad blogging experiences elsewhere
but thats how i found..[or thought i found ...a home here]
there are many like me that have strong opinion..
but get hounde from place to place

and many who click non stop on every update
were all got different urges/needs

and there comes an anoying point
i get 4 emails..only to find..its the same person/..divided their post over a period of time
because of a posting limitation...

im not sure regulating word limitations help..
[but recognise its your choice]
but surely this can best be done via edit/spell checking..
by many specialist editors..

.getting a share ...of the advert commisions..
a token credit..plus glory...volenteers usually have adgendas

[with the re-edit's..they should be going to the origonal poster...
to advice not censure..
and retain their loyalty...
[respecting their right to say or be heard...]

neither should the whole posts be deleted..
just the offending bits removed..
or reworded...[any complaint must/offer
..their rewriting....their re-edit]

if only so as to save editors their time]
their job being to chose the best version..

[or leting people chose ...vote..on line via paying money]

posting should not cost..but complaints should..
.if only to verify the complainant isnt being paid to censure

i think.. the topic's.. should be more divided..into specialty areas...ideally comments should..recieve pay...and simply reading could cost..

BUT only in the medium of exchange/
the forum accepts..[points being my preferance]

some sites have a point system..that counts points

[like yahoo answers..COSTS 5 points to post/a new topic..
[ask a question]
...and one point EARNED..by each comment

my suggestion is each visit...
should earn a point..[ok may ...earn a point]

and that points can be monetised,,,
[for gifts or ebay credits..or some other type rewards

im not talking big money..

.only say enough ...to pay for effectivly/
..free web acces for posters ..reporters

or those finding and recording the new topic..onto the forum

OUG:

Do you mean that a contributor gets PAID 5 points each contribution, while commenters PAY one point for each comment ? If the contributor can donate her 5 points back, I'm all for it.

So how much would one point be ? We're limited to ten comments per day, so 20 cents each seems pretty fair. That might make the more prolix of us more economical.

Oops.

..[its only a token-fee/..only to put the concept out there

a base...for say/a link to the topic and a quick blurb...
commenters get paid..<<..one point for each comment>>
to use as we chose [on site]..
the contributor can donate her 5 points back,..

or accumulate...or apply to an advertisers services..
[or redeem them via some gift..say a pen or a certificate of service[or a ribbon]..

who knows...it was meant to be only a small-point

<<so 20 cents each seems pretty fair>..its only a token gratuity
just to say ...we notice your doing a great service

i have a few words left
so will think outloud some other points

for egsample i love the abc big ideas...
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/

[who had a great show today]
title of/What Can We Learn From Terrorists?

Whatever else we might think about those labelled as terrorists,
it is clear that their tactics have changed the world
in ways that serve their religious,
political and ideological aims.

Moreover, argues Tariq Ali today,
contrary to what people imagine,
terrorism was neither spawned by Islam nor will it end with it.

[he cleverly linked politics in the west
[bailouts to neo capitalists..etc

to their deregulation/privatisation of govt services
[on the premise that govt shouldnt be doing so much
[yet screamed /begged for IMEDIATE GOVT..bailout..]
when their neo capitalist regeme was threatening to melt down

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2010/3033359.htm

so i note it
in the big picture section of the forum
in say ...the subsection ...of olo suggested vieuwing
for other members to comment upon... on these pages

sort of like a one stop shop...

but via members selection ..[of all THEIR favourited programs]
but sorted into format..say abc/programs/..youtube clips

sports/arts/ science current-affairs
war disaster god news science

..news papers magazines
radio/web sites..etc

going the full specrum

[maybe by topic or format/ cross referanced
of the special sites ...we all get our info from]

heck i was only thinking outloud
i dont want to loose what we got here

graham is asking for suggestions
i thought i would suggest

[its what i chose to do]

OUGI
must ... [say]
that ...
my [eyes] go
crossed
when I read blank
verse how to
make any
sense out of
it Idon'tknow
?Because I'm
surethereissomesomewherethereburiedwithin the [ ]s and
even maybe on each line ?
Live in
hope....

Maybe schooling
in the
(fifties) ...
ill-fits one
.... to ....
tolerate other
forms of expression
?
But it's sometimes worth the effort :)
Thanks.

loudmouth

I'm
surprised
you
readtheserantsatall
I
can't be
bothered
if oug can't be bothered
maybe thereissomething
intersting
I'llneverknow,orcare
suchislife

Yeahyougotapointthere[A]micus......
I
t
'
s
all a bit hard on
us_old_buggers_who
have_to_take_t_i_m_e_t-o
\read_a_simple_,_clear_sentence/\=
anyway,letalone
eecum
mings

thanks for reminding me guys

with points ..we can fine ..personal-abuse
instead of suspending their accounts

keep up the destractions ..in lue of replying to the topic?

isnt that ridicule..off THIS topic?

whats it called
..when others ..drop in ..destractions..or ridicule others

or is it just revealing bad form?

i cant read your "block-posts"
they read like mindless raves

its like some of ya ...never heard of parragraphs
let ye ..without sin not cast ..the first stone

you got anything to add to the topic?

not a thought ..between ya?

lets all..try to get-on ..the SAME page

i awoke this morning with visions of the future fast fading in my mind...so quickly record some detail ..as i remember seeing

keeping in mind such destractions ..as is clear from things like my posting style ..and the law ..and that others wont like what i say[and claim not to read my words]..recalling its hard for a hungry man to think of things other than the threat ..or the hunger..[destractions]

so saying i saw a page ..much like the wiki-page...by pausing the mouse over the highlight bit ..more info was made available..[on the same page]

[it expanded with more info ..on that highlighted by the mouse over-scanning it...was 'LikE' a link..but kept one on the same page...but scored a 'visit'..accreditisation ..as if the adverts on the page had actually gotten visited]

much like the iphone expanding page concept..but while still remaining ..loyal to the page your on..[love the one your with]

its dificult to explain that i saw...not knowing the teq/names of that i saw..and of course the other concerns managed to erase much of the vision... such as would gmail send my message this time...[in the end i decided to post this to the open forum...as i know that works and if it works im still in the land of the blogger]

but take a ..new look at formatting...we have gotten used to changing pages to get extra info..[then when there get 'hooked'...by new things]...all by seeking the info...or trying to correct bad info

but all of us arnt equal...

some people click on adverts..[others never do]..so why should there be a base value..as all 'visits arnt equal' ..just as all visitors to the topic arnt equal... some come to give ..others come to keep the status quo..[stiffle discordant opinion].etc

anyhow my mind is now hearing 350 350...

and thus i move ...from my creative to ...my sheep mind
[my thought flow ends]...

just as others hoped it to end..that may not be how it is ..but is as my mind has been led to believe it to be..[cant think why...lol]

377 words that time, OUG

reply to topic
i trust the word/postcount ..at posting
more than i trust you

you clearly got some problems mr septic
you cant make constructive comment on topic
only count words wrong

its not my fault you got a bad program

your like one same same
no comment poster

who counts words
rather than reading them
you seem literate

TRY MAKING COMMENT
not judgment

are you really so boring
all you can do is count
with a faulty program

try commenting on topic
have you no comment on the content?

this is becomming harrasment
are YOU..a serial pest?

this mornings thoughts are
WHO READS THEIR MAIL ANYHOW
[sorry just woke-up]

but the point being...i favourite my favourite threads
so only read interesting mail,..but in doing so might be missing much info

there are lessons to be learned from my recent experiences
[the first thing i did was cleaned up and read some mail]
THEN UNSUBSCRIBE A OT OF notifications..[that i never really read anyhow]

how this helps adds to this thread is a few suggestions
i only click on two of the many links[at top of the page]

the best/page...
i often forget to use
is the main page that lists both..[articles/general]

but of course there are the other blog pages etc
these would be better to become joined to the main page
where at a glance we can read the titles of ALL the various in/outs and blogs ON THE SAME PAGE

ie we dont really need open mail
or visit one or the other of the links
cause they could maybe be better? available..ON THE ONE PAGE..only

im sure the blogs..[for egsample may have interesting stuff/but never opened the notification email's....to find-out

other throwaway thoughts were renaming
our posts section into..personal blogs...

even maybe the ability to edit..or put[copy]..
best posts..onto our own blog page...simply with one of them new 'share buttons'

or being able to upload images..
[im only putting it out there]

trying to wander back..through my thoughts
to recall the REASONS..i sought to post this morning..

[the reason..i got out of bed today]
thus maybe reasons..others are reading/today
or maybe..visit more or repeat their rewarding visit..from yesteday

it occurs we wouldnt mind each 'page'...
of the click full-page vieuw..to each have a micro advert..
thus 20 page topics..would have 20 adverts..that might add more revenue[income]..

also those flickering adverts
SHOULD BE PAYING TENFOLD

we know..why they do it
and are not pleased

the google rearch function has become unmanagable
[its deliberate...the function WAS great..but now includes so much scattered info..on too many pages..as to be only decorative..at best]

sggestions is to give 10 pages..[5?]..at a time
each with its own advert

next i would raise the issue of closing topics..[please dont]
on the issue of topics..avoid duplication..[often we have..'just'had our say here.../and a new one opens up...

but we said it all last-time/
then find comments closed

also...join simular topic's..together...

maybe available on the same page
[with links/adverts etc..if need be]

further on my wish-list..is a formal complaint mechanism
where the complain..includes a quote...AND OFFERS suggested corrections...!..[and then is included..IN the topic..[on the same pages]

any complaint..MUST have a..suggested edit
or else is spurilous/vexatious
or simply being difficult..disruptive for their own adgenda/or job

a general suggestion is to avoid auto updates
i hate it when a service..[option like vidio/sound..etc..STOPS WORKING

i dont get updates...[lost too many things that way]
hate clicking links...prefere the quoted bits ON THE SAME PAGE
[keeping them in house]..links get out of date or updated..re edited..they often disappear alltogether...so context gets lost

maybe more outside link options..on the personal-page
or photo..with id/tag...only because it has eye appeal[lol]

those pages we join to our personal blog page..[able to be edited][but origonal post..stays as it was posted]

ok visiters gotta go now

am egsample is worth 350 words
at
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4008&page=0
Posted by samsung,
Saturday, 23 October 2010 3:29:27 PM
he was being flipant..[ok im presuming]

but i have rewritten...my recomendation
of how his post..might be made better

QUOTE
As has been said it..[ie - - - -]
Only is the word
as we know it

but alas
the condominium of thoughtlessness
compounds compunction
but only for..(86 % of the masses}

[it seems he used the uppercase *^ by mistake?]
[continue quote]

FINALLY
we wait with breathlessness
for it is extant
...but only for now !

while insuperable..{insepperable}..we can impend
the uprising..of the devil incarnate
in the recessional ambiguity

{of...[simply seeing nothing]..aks sgt shultze}

or worse doing the wrong something
but need we do at all

my remedy

wait for it

the Targum

A targum..is an Aramaic translation..of the Hebrew-Bible..(Tanakh) written or compiled..from the Second Temple period..until the early Middle Ages(late first millennium).

The two major genres..{which version sam?}of Targum reflect two geographical and cultural centers..of Jewish life during the period of their creation,..namely the Land of Israel and Babylonia.

Aramaic was the dominant Jewish language..or lingua franca for hundreds of years..in these major Jewish communities.

so let us add flummery..to the equinox of
recess..within

- - - - - -
= = =
believe it or not

...[my research suggests]..[this remedy seems too simple]
http://www.dailyhebrew.com/category/Targum/

so if..it could be expanded upon?
it might prove revelatory
[quote continues]

surely we know this to be truth

in anguishment..with benign hypersycrisity
which infects us all
within
without..but always

He has spoken..{clearly he is sam-sung]

He, the He of enlightenment
of simplicity empowered mesmerisms of metonymy

it so clear
so obvious
so

easy
{END quote}

then he changes topic..
[or gives his credentials]
or uses a traditional departure sig-nature

[im not sure which?]

could you ask him to clarify?

then add in the revelatory addendum?

[QUOTE}

the reigns of authority,..[the snood is worn]

Scotland The Brave
Socratic imperatives,..superlative

in a digest of tranquility

sent to warn us all
of the impending undulate of
invasion and inequity

scorned..of digest and equinox affirmation
brought upon by the devil incarnate

himself

[by 134 =56 lost forever]

{!#$+%^..would be its uppercasse error equivelent?}

in the howling tides of time.

So there ya go folks.

THAT'S how I would change the world.
I'm glad to have cleared it up.
[end/quote]

anyhow thats how i understand it...
if sam could affirm...or correct my error..?

this correction..or his
will replace..the text that confused me?

[and confused the post topic even more]
[in an allready confusing post/topic/subject]

[mainly by me errantly..thinking..the old 4 post limit was still egsistant]..and rushing the post with too firm an edit..to the 350

anyhow

may god bless us all
especially your considerations..in clearing up this issue
in creating/sustaining.. a better forum for us all

clearly a better method of sepperating quotes/comment is neded to realisticlly call for moderration on the dispute...confusion

but i fear i have only added to the confusion

sorry to distract from the topic

anyhow
all the best

Speaking as a contributor, albeit one with a hiatus of several months, it comes as a significant blow to hear of the changes to OLO, changes necessary to keep it afloat as I understand.

Susan P has proved to be long on editorial skills but longer still on interpersonal skills. The latter being even more relevant in my humble opinion.OLO’s loss is her (future) employer’s gain. Ideally something will reveal itself to allow her to stay on at OLO. Something somehow.

With respect to falling revenues may I urge caution before instigating any subscription model? Reason being is that once launched, if it proves unsuccessful, then it’s very, very hard to unscramble that egg. While say a voluntary $2/mth or $3/mth seems reasonable and a light burden on readers, one has to wonder just how many will indeed pay that small amount (especially if other media players in this space do not charge) and if not enough readers pony up subscriptions, then not only will revenue targets be missed, but the subscribers will in time, ferment contempt for the free riders.

If I may suggest, one quick sure fire way to raise revenues is to offer contributors a service:

OLO will burn on a CD all articles published at OLO by that contributor and sell the CD to the contributor. Or anyone else who may seek a copy.

When you decide on a price for such a service Graham, let me know. I'm interested!

Perhaps, in line with Jonathan's above post, those that also "comment" can also purchase their OLO 'comment history'? I have always wondered who "owns" the copyright of the comments - OLO or the commenter, I suspect the latter but maybe Graham can clarify. Some regulars might like to own a CD of their OLO history, some may not. Nevertheless, perhaps one could buy 'their' history on each anniversary date of their joining? Of course, the sums would have to be done. Just a thought.

qanda..raises an interesting point{one no-one*..dare yet give an answer to!}

its unfair..to ask grayham..to put a reply into words at these times]

in the end...morally we EACH..are accountable
thus have moral_ownership..regardless of the bounds/rulings..of mankind

further..there is..a thing..such as copy right/limitations
[that seem to be ever extended further into time..held by coorperations..who hold JOINT-claim..over them...for..{now}.it's the law..

seems possesion/claim..must be able to be defended...thus we need to sign away our..joint-claims..as a condition of entry..its a rather standardised-format..{now]...

so lets move onto..things we CAN do/change...add to..[to sustain all our rights/duties}..here now

i have had to kiss..many forum/moderators..to post content[opinion]..that i hold...[signed many unilateral*_contracts...AS CONDITION OF ENTRY...JUST TO POST

many were deleted*?..as soon as i posted them...{i hasten to add only very few here/..thus my loyalty to grayham/gratitude to grayham/olo..}

the annoyance about..that was...they took my submition's
..then hid it from public vieuw...forever?...

or kept it..as theirs..by right to supress..or hold...as long in private..as they chose..{but such was the past}...

but for their abuse's..i would still be posting on answers...bbc/abc/sbs...and so many other..censoring sites*..{acc-countable close to 100]..

the damage done by officious moderation..and paid to complain readerships..who steal the ideas from all of us..is huge...

BUT TO repeat not here..thus i remain..'on air'..here

anyhow...moving on...i would like the edit option[but realise content must remain in context]..thus the idea of having our own blog pages..to edit the more messy ones

by the way..many are messy..mainly because i found little reward in cleaning them up..at the time..only to have someone steal their intelectual componant..

or find it suppressed or censured..or deleted..[i reasoned if they steal it..they should at least have to clean them up..themselves]

anyhow...its was revealed yesterday that a famouse female auther...RENOWNED for her litterary talent..wrote in gross hand...seems the clear litteration..was the result of the editing hand[heard on bbc yesterday]..not thus its creator..the famed writer

394 word count
ok two posts

anyhow...we live in interesting times...

for now the costs to hold our info are huge...im told arround..a grand per terror-bit...thus have only since gratitude..for grayham holding..my origonal musings/content/opinion..on air

lets support him..holding it all together
[for ALL OF US]..

and try to make it..even better*

there are many good ideas..but lets get this site PERFECT
[ok as pefect as human error can be]..remember there are many talkers

BUT DOERS do..[ie put uop the best blog/opinion site ...EVA

let computers check for abuse...and following of rules

let editors clean up..the posts..[opinion]
add.. read-ability../clarity

[and thus sign..their work..TOO
sharing the glory..for their highest contribution..readability*]

extra space..but blank mind
ok post

With respect to improving the financial viability of the site, might the internet microdonation application 'Flattr' have relevance to OLO?

Flattr is described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flattr

The Flattr homepage is: http://flattr.com/

It seems to me that it is not just that OLO could benefit from donations, but that the interactivity of the site with users could be enhanced by the adoption of something like Flattr. Whilst OLO would in any event be the recipient of the donations made through Flattr under this proposal, it may be that the OLO software could provide that individual articles and/or posts could be nominated as the 'donation points' that earned the 'flattry'.

Such enhanced interactivity of the site may act as an encouragement to better quality of posting to the forum, if the extent of 'flattry' received by articles and/or posts is on public display. A form of voting the popularity of contributions, but one in which voters put their money where their mouth is.

(I suppose one could, perhaps even repeatedly, vote for one's own articles or posts. That would be making 'vanity publishing' work for OLO, wouldn't it? Then again, perhaps not, as such would not constitute real credibility. One of those cases in which 'less' may ultimately mean 'more' with respect to monetary support: if only that principle carried over into the realm of rambling musings and the usage of electronic page space! But I digress.)

It also may come to be, if the adoption of Flattr becomes more widespread throughout the internet community, that an ability to use Flattr in favour of OLO by presently non-registered viewers of OLO may operate to attract more registered users to the site. FWIW it looks as if Canonical Ltd may be adopting Flattr in connection with Ubuntu Linux as a means toward rewarding open source developers. See: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10011113&postcount=26

Just some unpunctuated thoughts as to how words may be really made to count for OLO. It would be a pity if everything came to a full stop.

The post by OLO contributor Jonathan J. Ariel on Sunday, 24 October 2010 at 6:49:01 PM to this thread opens up an interesting possibility as to the next iteration of OLO.

Jonathan, speaking with respect to voluntary contributions, said:

"While say a voluntary $2/mth or $3/mth seems reasonable
and a light burden on readers, one has to wonder just how
many will indeed pay that small amount (especially if other
media players in this space do not charge) and if not enough
readers pony up subscriptions, then not only will revenue
targets be missed, but the subscribers will in time, ferment
contempt for the free riders."




In the event that Forum software may be changed or modified such as to permit the moderated posting of 'sticky' threads, might there be some advantage to running a sticky on the subject of voluntary contribution? It may be that such an ongoing discussion would give not only a better insight into what users may off-the-bat say they are prepared to voluntarily contribute, but also operate as a think-tank with respect to services which OLO may be in a position to sell and be a motivational discussion to boot.

Good ideas do not necessarily get thrown up during the relatively short lives of topical discussions, like this very one. Running a sticky thread could provide a forum within which this subject could be kept alive and productive.

Jonathan prudently raises the prospect of paying subscribers, albethey voluntary ones, developing contempt for free riders. I wonder what might be the effect upon participation, however, if OLO gained a reputation as a forum most of its users voluntarily paid to support, especially if such voluntary support is not generally the case elsewhere?




OLO userID 'qanda', in suggesting the sale of CDs of users' comment histories as a source of revenue for OLO, brings to mind a suggestion once made by lately absent OLO userID 'Bronwyn', that such may constitute a literary legacy upon a poster's demise. I hope Bronwyn has not become a client for her own proposal.

Hi, I've been meaning to get back into this thread, but I've been ill over the last two weeks and it has slowed me down. I'll have to check out flattr.

In reply to Q&A the copyright is OLO's

"Copyright and intellectual property notices
International copyright protection
The material on this web site is protected by copyright under the laws of Australia and, through international treaties, other countries.

We own or control, and reserve, all rights
Unless otherwise indicated, all rights (including copyright) in the content and compilation of these web pages and on-line images (including text, graphics, logos, button icons, video images, audio clips and software) are owned or controlled for these purposes, and are reserved, by us.

Copyright in articles on On Line Opinion is also governed by our Contributors Agreement."

Found at http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/display.asp?page=legal

I'm going back to bed, but hopefully will be online again later! :(

Thanks for that Graham. Maybe you should write a book - there might be a buck in that :) Hope you are feeling better.

Sometimes, I suspect, it can be the smallest of things that can deter visitors to a website from participating further.

One such may be constituted by the absence of any facility on OLO for the lodgment of truly spontaneous comment, comment perhaps by what may even be a first time viewer of the site. I note the existence of such facility for unregistered (moderated) comment on, for example, some (but, very significantly, not all) news items published by the online edition of 'The Australian'.

I should imagine that OLO needs to attract more participants into discussions as a first step to widening any support base, no matter what model for ongoing financing may be adopted.

Could it be that the moderation of UNregistered viewer comments might be a suitable first area for the deployment of prospective volunteer teleworking OLO moderators?

Am I imagining things or is OLO a much quieter place of late?
There seems to have been an exodus of some of the most prolific and popular scribblers: Examinator, Foxy, CJ Williams, Severin, Pynchme(?), even Col Rouge/Stern (life's not the same without him :-( ).
This is surely a worrying trend? Extra disturbing for me since these mostly constitute the left/centre-left of what tends to be a conservative medium.
Perhaps you're right, Forrest Gumpp, OLO needs enticements!
Perhaps new comers could be offered 10% more verbiage for the first month?

Squeers, I think that perhaps those posters have not liked being held to account for overstepping the rules. I also suspect that they don't like having to rationally justify their views as we are all required to do here.

Certainly Foxy managed to produce some interesting stuff, but she always ran away when pressed as did Morgan, Severin, et al, usually leaving some kind of snarky abuse as a parthian shot. I don't miss that and I don't think it informs any kind of debate.

It's a fact that most people are somewhat left-wing in their youth and grow to enbrace a more rightist view as their own capacities increase and their confidence in their ability to take care of themselves grows. Perhaps the problem is that we simnply don't have enough younger contributors?

Dear Antiseptic,
it is indeed a fact that most people become more conservative as they age. I hold on to the other fact, however, that some people resist!

Rules are not only "meant" to be broken, it is vital that they are!

It's great that we're starting to get down and dirty on values. Like in RL, it takes a while for the sound and fury to subside.

For mine, very few people change, although some of the feint hearted give up. Revolutionaries are still looking for the next revolution, even on their deathbed ("more light"), and counter-revolutionaries (aka conservatives) have their fire hoses always at the ready, even if they can barely hold it with their arthritic claws.

OLO is after all, about OPINION- conjecture about what is, was, or possibly may be, based on less than complete information. Given incomplete data, we all draw a line of best fit that best fits our particular prejudice- the glass is half empty, or full, or has been taken away by a bartender worried about the liquor laws.

But, apart from the few (some of whom have been named) who have found that OLO can be used as the cyber-graffiti wall from the dreams of their pimply youth, most OLO-ers are searching, in their own way, for a coherent narrative- for images, visions, facts, data and views that will help them trace their particular arc. Just blurting stuff from top-of-mind is pretty useless, except for erstwhile pimply cyber-graffiti-ists and op-pollsters.

OLO is a cyber-community in search of a culture, but constrained by the reality that even bits need bobs. Rupert is presently experimenting with paywalls- and even he can only get 100,000 eyeballs onto an iPad.

(continued...)

.... (as I was saying)

Information wants to be free, as Gerry Garcia once famously said. So much for information, but what about opinion and advice? My considered opinion- based on a career of both charging for, and paying for such stuff, is that OLO has a great opportunity to be the wellspring and focus of revolutionary change- so long as the "considered" outweigh the "cyber-graffiti-ists". Crikey and ABC/Drum are like Wool/Coles- huge flux of undifferentiated bloggers. OLO can do great things if ideas can transcend economics.

The Medicis did it- so why can't we? Back in the good 'ol days, lots of nerds got rich on voluntary subscriptions because their product was great- which meant that people self-evaluated whether they could pay to play. OLO can do that- you've just got to keep economics front of mind. I can afford to pay- heck, I pay Alan Kohler and Crikey- but I'll never think that the considered opinion of a pauper is worth less than the pompous utterances of a prince- and I'm sure that most OLO-ers agree.

Graham- give us a budget target- I'm sure that we can meet it. So long as Medici-house rules continue to prevail.

Hi Jedimaster,
Just as an aside ... one of the things I enjoyed most about being ed of OLO was giving complete unknown authors a go. In fact I got quite a kick out of it ... Susan P

Absolutely, Susan!

I get tired of scanning "the media" (bits, photons and pulp) hearing, seeing, viewing the same "opinion celebrities". I figured out what was going on a few weeks ago when I went into ABC Ultimo for an interview- the old guy at the counter had a bunch of visitor labels out of central casting- the usual suspects. Why, I wondered, does that guy from the humungous financial company always get asked to opine on matters global? And why is that woman with the very familiar face going into interview booth 2 always asked to review books by pop authors. Because they're cheap and safe, and cheap because they're safe. I could write their lines. But on a tight budget with a tight-assed board of management, they're the "go-to" personalities.

The recent "Festival of Dangerous Ideas" in Sydney was about as dangerous as a pond of goldfish or a pack of Shi-Tzus.

But even idea-bubbles and snarls of OLO-piranhas and old media-starved mongrels can be easily dismissed a so-much insignificant sound and fury unless they have some summation and co-ordination. As an unreconstructed mid-century modernist, I have little time for flakey po-mo's who oxymoronically believe that coherent action will be an emergent property of a collection of far-from-equilibrium rantings. A thousand flowers must bloom, but only the best seeds will be harvested.

It's the harvesting that we must focus on as our point of differentiation. Maybe I'm steeped in Hegelian dialectics rather than stooping to Hayekian diatribe. Synthesised ideas, forged in OLO's cyber-furnace are needed, rather than the synthetic sound-bites of the strutters and fretters of Q&A who, by plasma, light the way for fools to dusty beds. TV or not TV.

Aye! Today! There is is the sleep of reason. The rubber of a thousand perchanced dreams of outrageous hair-do's. And having rubbed, the hand moves on....

TS Eliot would have been proud Jed. "The hand that having rubbed, moves on". I'm also a modernist, and I think OLO should have a great future.

Eliot subscribed to a sort of Jungianism, which is in a sense what Web 2.0 is about. Except it is not a subconscious, but a conscious, nevertheless it is collective.

The trick is how to make this work in our context without exhibiting signs of madness (which our competitors in the early days, like the Indy sites, most definitely did).

Ideas are definitely welcome if the above makes sense to you.

I dipped out on this comment series some time back, when it first showed signs of deterioration. Checking back to see if anything was happening, I find it in total degeneration. How sad. Boring egotistical meaningless stream-of-consciousness space-wasting and semi-abusive nastiness ('pimply youth' 'arthritic claws') and smart-a*se verbiage. Could the editor please pluck from this mess the one or two useful ideas that have arisen. It would be nice to have the last ten pages condensed into one or two paragraphs.

As a salve to the mild irritation confessed to by OLO userID 'veritas' in her post of Thursday, 14 October 2010 at 1:31:35 AM, caused by departure of discussion from the topic of the article, I bring to her attention by way of assurance that articles do reach the wider shores of the OLO readership, that despite its discussion thread having been derailed six days ago, and remained unposted to for the last four days, the contemporary article 'The coming liquid fuel crisis' was this morning displaying as this week's most popular article. Proof: http://bit.ly/caJP3L

Returning to Article 1. of the Memorandum .....

An inhibiting factor to the making of donations in support of OLO is, IMO, the fear in a would-be donor that any donation (and particularly small ones) may not be matched to any significant extent by others, and may therefore, if made, be effectively ineffective, and thus wasted.

A sticky, or otherwise likely long-standing-upon-the-default-index-display, topic might become the site of a brainstorm or motivational think-tank through which ideas as to how such reluctance to financially support the site might be overcome may emerge. Perhaps the existing software might permit a categorization of topics in the index to the General Discussion area of the Forum as 'Forum Financial Support', analogously to the existing category 'Technical Support' (a category not presently on display due to no topics having been proposed/approved within the last month within that category).

Well, that's my gem of an idea for the day, and whilst it may not be a diamond, perhaps it might be an amethyst rather than just a stone. With that I shall make my escape.




Off Topic. BTW, veritas, you did get one reply to your April, 2007, article 'Hot stuff on little kids - Dr Mustard adds spice to the reading wars'. See: http://bit.ly/bEqKQk