Hey pynchme,

How many times do you think you've ever used or heard or read the word misandry, and how many times misogynist?

Do you think that there are more men who hate women than women who hate men?

Do you think as MTR does that the site is a 'monument to girl hatred'? I never hear you disagree with anything in articles like this.

Do you think dontdatehimgirl.com is a 'monument to man hatred'?

Can you ever in your wildest dreams imagine an article about such a site from MTR, or anybody?

'I AM your average feminist and most of the rubbish you attribute to me/them is not something I (at least, or any feminists I know) think. '
You don't refute any of the claims specifically and you have often rejected any parallels I make with any of the plethora of downtrodden women sob storys (ie victim of societal expectations) we are fed by OLO and yourself and career feminists such as MTR.

I wanna hear you say it. You cant can you?

I wanna once hear you concede 'societal expectations' are created by women just as much as men. That men have equal constraints on their behaviour and sexuality. That we never hear it mentioned, and that we are bombarded with feminist sob stories.

So, agree with me, or refute it and prove me right. It will hurt you either way. I await the Julie Bishop stare.

Severin

"you can't claim women are sluts without acknowledging that their paramours are "slutees"?"

I have never defended the behaviour of these "slutees". I have yet to be convinced that any double-standard exists in society more generally. People can be vicious to the creep who broke some poor girl's heart.

Pynchme

Regarding your concern questions, it is never easy knowing how much sympathy to extend to those who have made silly choices. Regarding the scenarios, I would treat all involved with some sympathy and an expectation that they solve their own problems and learn from their mistakes.

"Are men who sleep around shooting themselves in the foot?"

I've known plenty of blokes who had really nice girlfriends, got rid of them to "play the field", earned a reputation and found it harder and harder to find women who were interested (or gullible) and ended up with someone very ordinary.

"See the problem is that you don't exhort men to be less promiscuous; you somehow expect women to be responsible for everyone else's moral choices and behaviour."

I agree that OLO discussions often focus more on the sexual behaviour of women than of men and that this is of concern. I believe that this is because no-one ever defends creepy blokes, therefore there is no debate about them. If people acknowledged that some women also make stupid or selfish choices, there would be no debate about them either.

"It isn't the responsibility of one sex or the other, but of individuals making better or worse choices."

Spot-on. Why do some people misinterpret any criticism of women as implying that men don't also have responsibilities?

"sounds like you're suffered in a relationship. You must have been terribly hurt. Sorry."

Thank-you for your concern. My anger comes from making a real effort to make the world a better place for women, including not using women, only to discover that most "feminists" aren't interested in paying any price for their principles.

Houellebecq: <"So, agree with me, or refute it and prove me right. It will hurt you either way. I await the Julie Bishop stare.">

Haw you have an overinflated idea of your capacity to cause me discomfort; in fact I laughed. This is a tedious chore for a Friday evening, but since you asked nicely let's see.

H: How many times do you think you've ever used or heard or read the word misandry, and how many times misogynist?

There is no institutional or historical context in which men have been systematically exploited, abused, killed and loathed by women. Feminism challenges a reality with a long history of systematic abuse. There is nothing new any of you blokes come up with that isn't being said by men who oppose human rights for women in India, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Not to say that men aren't systematically exploited, abused, killed and loathed by MEN with more power than the average Joe - welcome to Marxist feminism.

What puzzles me is how you all can put women down as the enemy, but not speak out about your own victimization by more more socially or physically powerful men.

Feminism is one possible answer to the way that men with less power relative to OTHER men might detach themselves from an exploitative system.

http://crimitism.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/against-our-better-judgement-lets-read-spreading-misandry-chapter-four/

H: Do you think that there are more men who hate women than women who hate men?

Most women love men - to the point of building their lives around them.

However, hatred of women is so ingrained into social institutions and everyday interactions that people in general have become desensitized to it.

You ever hear of Marc Lepine ? (Hailed as a folk hero by some menz advocates). What's your female equivalent ?

Ever seen an article celebrating the rape and murder of a 5 year old boy and saying he deserved it? There's a menz advocate site that includes that. Also glorifies various rapists.

How about http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/ - I challenge you to find an equivalent set of negative commentary and reader postings made by women about men, or

cont/d

The news is daily fare of stories about women and children being raped and murdered mainly by males. If you were reading every day about men/boys being murdered by women, and women reading it seemed indifferent, what would you think? You think that dating site means that women hate men; heaven forbid that females should start killing men at the rate men presently kill women.

H: Do you think as MTR does that the site is a 'monument to girl hatred'? I never hear you disagree with anything in articles like this.

I didn't see the site, but the quotes from it; the denigration of women as objects ("that") and the constant demeaning of females by rating their f/ckability as the measure of their human worth, doesn't sound too promising.

H: Do you think dontdatehimgirl.com is a 'monument to man hatred'?

No not at all. It's a relationship site from what I can see. I took a bit of time to research it as far as that's possible. The terms of service are that the information has to be accurate; also the posters can be contacted and/or located; and the person has the means to reply and put a case.

Btw: There's an equivalent site (actually more than one) where men can post about women and their bad relationships. It didn't seem too busy but I notice that pics there included intimate pics of their former partners' genitalia and nudity etc accompanied by disparaging commentary. I didn't see any right of reply.

H: Can you ever in your wildest dreams imagine an article about such a site from MTR, or anybody?

Possibly. Have you got a site where women post pics of male genitalia and make fun of them with crude, demeaning language ?

H: <"You don't refute any of the claims specifically and you have often rejected any parallels I make with any of the plethora of downtrodden women sob storys">

What sob story are you talking about? Can you be specific.
Are females here whining more than the male posters ?

cont/d:

H: I wanna hear you say it. You cant can you?

Say what?

H: I wanna once hear you concede 'societal expectations' are created by women just as much as men. That men have equal constraints on their behaviour and sexuality. That we never hear it mentioned, and that we are bombarded with feminist sob stories.

I don't have any trouble 'conceding' that societal expectations are created by women as well as men. Haven't you ever heard the term "party to their own oppression." ? It's the same sort of thing where women ensure they uphold the existing social relations by participating in honour killings of their own daughters.

Men do not have equal constraints on their behaviour and sexuality. They do experience social pressure to behave in a macho sort of way towards women and to denigrate any non-heterosexual sexual orientation or non-macho expressions of masculinity (you know - manginas and similar expressions help keep you all in line).

I have posted links to such things. If you have something that you'd like to say about male experience, I will be most interested to read it.

Antiseptic: I'm not Catholic nor an adherent to any formal religious organization. The rest of your remarks are silly. Did you expect some sort of response to your suppositions?

Houellebecq: Further to my earlier responses to your questions, I doubt you'll find an equivalent by women about men and boys, for this sort of manufactured hatred of women:

To see more concisely what I mean, skip to the last pages if you prefer the short version:

http://www.girlsagainstporn.com/download/ccv.pdf

http://manufacturedcontempt.wordpress.com/2007/06/20/larry-flynt-and-hustler-magazine/

Benk: <"I believe that this is because no-one ever defends creepy blokes, therefore there is no debate about them. If people acknowledged that some women also make stupid or selfish choices, there would be no debate about them either.">

I'm afraid that there would be debate about them Benk. Women have always been scapegoated for society's moral behaviour. You talked about men leaving nice girls to play the field. Where does the pressure or desire to play the field come from?

Nobody has trouble acknowledging that women make stupid and selfish choices; it just so happens though that men's choices are legitimated in major social institutions and in societal expectations. Like if a bloke impregnates a woman and walks away she is most likely to be blamed for trying to trap him or for wanting a baby to get benefits or for seeking a termination or whatever. Who in society is calling him to account? I don't see any men here ever acknowledging men's responsibility or role in their own relationship demise. If I read something about the bitches who get the house and kids from the (cue violins) hard working male, etc etc. I feel obliged to put out information re: female experience. Which isn't the same as saying that some women aren't bitches, just that not all are. Anyway, big topic for another time :)

Severin: hey g'day :D