Roy,it may have been a slip of the pen...or I should say the keyboard... but when you categorized the "Big Four" political issues you put one issue in the wrong category..."sanctity of life issues" belongs in the human rights category ...there are no human rights without the guarantee of the ability to exercise them...namely the right to be born alive! Believe me Roy,when you have seen the aftermath of abortions as I have during my nursing career, abortion is the number one human rights issue! And it is a political issue...the right to life can only be guaranteed in parliaments by legislators...remember it was in Australia's Federal Parliament that whales were guaranteed protection? Anyone who killed one risked a $100,000 fine! (And they pay doctors to kill human babies!) Thomas Jefferson, one of the authors of America's Declaration of Independence, declared the first duty of government was to protect human life. When on 10 October 2008 Victoria's Labor Government legalized abortion up to birth, it failed spectacularly in this first test. Societies of course get the governments they deserve and lack of rigour in debate, such as not putting the right to life firmly in the human rights category as Roy has done...either unintentionally or intentionally... doesn't help in the search for truth and justice. Abortion is not a soft social issue. It is a gross political distortion and denial of fundamental human rights.

I am one who likes to hark back through history, especially concerning Thomas Aquinas.

He not only got Christianity out of the Dark Ages, but also as a philosopher used Hellenistic Reasoning to establish the beginnings of our present university systems in some ways leaving Christianity in imaginative heavens where it probably belongs.

I fitted in - probably -, because I have so much respect for the Sermon on the Mount, a bit similar to Mandela possibly who is said not to be a dinkum Christian.

Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA.

The truth about christianity as a power and control seeking killer meme--as advocated by right wing religionists.

Monotheistic creationist-religion is an exclusively power seeking entity intent upon controlling and managing the entire human world and even all of the conditionally arising world.

The "sacred power" that such monotheistic religion claims it brings (or would extend) into the human world is, it says, the "Creator-God" of the universe---whereas, in fact, the power that such monotheistic religion actually exercises (or would everywhere exercise) is that of the humanly governed political, social, economic, cultural, and altogether, merely exoteric INSTITUTIONALIZATION of the totality of humankind.

The institutionalizing power that such religion exercises (or would everywhere exercise, if allowed to function at will and unimpeded) is of an inherently intolerant nature---because it is possessed by a reductionist, and tribalistic, and exclusively exoteric mentality, that CANNOT except any non-"orthodox", extra-tribal (or even extra-institutional), non-monotheistic, or, otherwise, esoteric exceptions to its "Rule".

Altogether then such monotheistic religion always dramatizes is the persistent will to dominate and assimilate ALL other institutions and traditions, and their various cultural expressions.

The greatest threat to secular democracy are the proto-religious right wing who are too willing to deny women their rights. the bio breakthroughs in science that offer mankind new hope like nothing religions can except for their pernicious and out of date theologies-based blessings and false promises and the fear of going to hell and eternal damnation. Yeah To hell with all that tripe,I say.

America is the worst example followed by all those countries with substantial Muslim populations and their demand for including their sharia law into our judicial systems.

Australia is another developing threat to democratic traditions. Watch it carefully.

socratease

Christianity and politics: a problematic mix? How ridicules. Christianity (along with Judaism and Islam) has always been about politics, not God. The three 'religions' stemming from Abraham have as the base their claim that they are God's lawyers on Earth and they have the divine right to 'rule' according to God's law as they interpret it.
How more political can you get than the claim to the right to rule in God's name? It is the ultimate blasphemy.
Take a look back just a few hundred years to when Christianity had political power. Look what happened before the separation of religion and state in Western countries, and what happens now in Islamic countries where religion and state have not yet been separated.
We have as much to fear from Christian domination in Australian politics as we do from Islam.
They are different branches of the same religion with no fundamental differences in their clams to being God's lawyers on Earth.
If Australia is to have any pretense at being a democracy separation between state and religion must be maintained, with no back-sliding into the intolerance and oppression that characterizes religious states.

Yep, Ho Hum and Socratrese, reckon many academic historians like my aged self could kind of go along with you, sort of believing in a Hope more than in a faith.

Cheers, BB, WA.

"Further, even the apparently clear-cut issues have a Christian twist. For instance, the Bible unquestionably takes the side of the poor over the rich, and posits charity as one of the greatest human virtues. But it also encourages thrift, self-reliance and obedience to (secular) law."

Any successful religion -- and Christianity certainly counts as that -- knows that it has to maintain some flexibility. Tell people what they should believe and they will go away. Let them believe what they want to, and call that Christianity, and they will flock to your banner. So 'Christianity' becomes an acceptable cover story for bizarre and bigoted beliefs about homosexuality, for instance.

The danger of religion is not in what it says: it is in the underlying message that it is all right to believe something because it feels good. We need politicians who base their actions on rational reasoning based on evidence, not on what they think their personal sky fairy happens to want this week.

"The truth is that Christianity and politics are strange bedfellows"
Well I bloody hope so.
Separation of religion and state, and whatnot.
As a non-Christian I absolutely resent being governed by the petty whims of a couple of people guided by their imaginary friend.
To make myself clear, I resent being subjected to policies based on the theologically-inspired prejudices, quirks or guilt by either religious Right OR religious LEFT.

I would only tolerate religiously-inspired input in a public referendum- if most people are religious, so be it- the people have spoken. If one person in charge of a representative democracy is religious s/he OWES it to the rest of us to NOT SUBJECT THE REST OF US TO IT.

And one last thing: Conscience votes are probably the biggest blight in our politics. It further outlines how badly we need to start copying the Swiss democratic system, instead of allowing petty personal attitudes of a tiny group of people to guide our country.

I remain appalled that the Rudd government continues the Howard custom of prayer before parliament. What do the non-christian pollies do while this is going on?

Whatever, I don't feel that any government that indulges in religious practices is governing for all.

As for Christianity and politics being problematic - ANY religion and politics do not work in the best interests of all. However, the article is about Christianity, so where does one start?

Right Wing Chrsitianity?
Left Wing Christianity?
Catholic?
Baptist?
Anglican?
Amish?
Unitarian?
All of the above plus all the splinter groups?

None of these groups actually agree with each other, how is that conducive to good leadership?

Was there ever a time where we had separation of church and state?
How could it be implemented? Enforced?

I don't agree with banning religion, but I sure wish there was a way to keep it the hell out of my (as a tax-payer) government.

Roy's done some testing - good on him. Jump rather than jump at shadows,like we are stuck in some first century time warp with Plato --I say . The media keep ignoring the influence of Jesus's words on people at their own risk. Churches and political parties are big churches- we can all go there to find unthinking, uncritical people . Means nothing!
There are lots of thinking people who claim to have a faith and the media get a surprise cause they have convinced themselves that only materialists can think - clearly not true. Faith creates passion .You can have wooses, but at least you know what a wowser thinks, and even how he might behave if you elect him !
Christianity is indeed irrelevant to many people because it talks about things that noone can prove . You have to be able to leap a few boring old classes in the school of mere description to get out of the cave .
The issue is not about the amount of dull dialogue, but whether you have done enough soundly based speculation and testing to practice science . Where jumping leads you to ,and whether it works or not . Unless you want to spend your life in mere rhetoric school ?
Mandella, like most outsiders, was reluctant to accept that what appeared to him as weak in church talk, could turn out to be "a solution "--it was the impossible solution but he's now chosen it and it works . Powerful but not obvious power stuff he's tested by years in prison , and now years as a leader. Leave the church out of this - Jesus gave it as much stick as anyone !
We ought show the same respect for testing the truth of ideas and the wonder of the Wests ability to move us on from what might otherwise destroy us. http://lawandliberty.blogspot.com
Want to be ahead of the debate coming up to the next election ?
Don't be afraid of being called a wowser. Be afraid of being a woose.

That is always someone who tries to make argument about Christianity brings ‘dark age’ argument. Dark age is long gone, people. Also there was time before dark age when Christians were killed in mass etc. Let’s bring argument about our time in 21st century and talk about what is Christianity now. Anyone can see that Christians are very peaceful religion as to opposite to fighting club of Jews vs Muslims.

Another fatuous beat up of the liberal party.

Notably the quotes are by "critics of the party" and appear to have no connection to reality. Hell why does he not quote me on the Labor party?

Is Roy Williams just making this up as he goes along?

Denny <" ."sanctity of life issues" belongs in the human rights category ...there are no human rights without the guarantee of the ability to exercise them...namely the right to be born alive!"

Denny, it is exactly because of people with views like yours that Christianity and politics should not mix.
Abortion is legal in Australia, but that does not mean anyone HAS to have an abortion.

These laws allow for choice, whereas before they came in we had women killing themselves and their foetus or baby by trying to abort themselves.

Would you rather go back to nursing those women again? I certainly don't. There is a vast difference between fully grown women and a tiny embryo or foetus, and you know it. I don't support third trimester abortions except when the mother's life is in danger, or the baby has a condition that is not compatible with life.

Luckily, women in this country have the choice to abort their pregnancies if necessary. That's not going to change Denny.

I agree, the Libs, Abbott in particular are dangerous. This guy uses a pretence of Catholicism to push hid "ideas" but they are actually biased views of a narrow minded male chauvinist, to use an older phrase.

He insists there should be no abortion but equally tells young women to not have sex.

Does this not reveal the truth about this guy? He is afraid of sex as if girls don't have sex as he advises then abortions can't happen. Yet, of course, he did exactly what he says others shouldn't didn't he? Thought he had an out of wedlock child and owned up for political advantage when he wasn't the father at all.

This is an example of how hypocritical and, well, mean and tricky to coin a phrase, those that feign religious belief are. If he was a serious believer he could not act the way he does.

Rudd is similar but more hidden so we don't know his true character.

Given that there is no God it is not surprising that nearly every politician claims to believe as there is political advantage in it.

Yes, politics and religion should not mix, but there is nothing more natural really as both "professions" are full of lies and liars.

What a suprise. A set of ideas doesn't perfectly fit into the left-wing box or right-wing box. Can someone explain why people continue to perpetuate these two inane categories? Apart from the obvious reasons: very lazy thinking and petty name-calling by columnists.

And don't get me started on the oxymoron "progressive conservative"!

Christian, Jewish and Islamic fundamentalist are so similar both believe in the supernatural, a young Earth created by a supernatural fantasy in 4004BCE, evolution theory is a conspiracy and a lie, all you need is blind faith to believe in impossible religious fantasy. Statistics show that these ridiculous religious beliefs in the USA bible belt states and Islamic states are exactly similar. Next time your chanting the ten commandments have a look at the penalties, there the same. Death by stoning?
If a 14th century Christian trapped in ice was brought back to life today he would be considered completely ignorant of all known knowledge, science, medicine, geography, even by a child in 3rd class, but when it came to religion absolutely nothing would have changed from the blinded dogma of the dark ages, every thing still written and actually believed the same, why, it's unquestionable thats why? He would now see the once irrefutable biblical fact of the Earth no longer being flat and the Sun revolving around it, a Heresy that religious cults daily burnt people alive over.
Next time you religious cult members go off to your weekly fantasy land indoctrination church, stop and think about the millions of people burnt alive and slaughtered in the name of your mythical gods and religions?
These same biblical writings have been used by kings and politicians causing nonstop wars throughout history, the inquisitions, then the fascist catholics dictators like Franco, Mussolini who created the Vatican state in 1929,Hitler who had Gott Mitt Uns "GOD WITH US" printed on the Nazi army belt buckles and committed genocide for Jesus, none ever excommunicated by the cult like the once dreaded Mary MacKillop was?
You want religion in politics, remember Stalin was a trainee priest in a seminary just like Tony Abbott once was?
Religion is no guarantee of pious behavior, history actually shows the opposite?
The Liberal party today looks more like a religious cult than a political party, have you read, God under Howard the rise of the religious right in Australian politics, by Marion Maddox?

Most of the postings on this subject are nonsense and misimformation.
Prayer is not repetitcious crap or hot air as some here seem to think.
Christians are not aliens but are human beings.
If we all thought the same and looked the same we would not achieve much, for the body has many different parts and the combined total makes up the body a wonderous thing acheaving all we can imagine.
No body bothers to listen to the poor. If you sow spareingly you reap
spareingly. The author of christianity has given the world all that we enjoy today and only a pompous prideful ass thinks he is the centre of all wisdom and knowledge. Wake up Australia.

Denny, the blog is about church and politics not abortion? But have a look at a doco called, Abortion, Cops and Corruption, look it up on the net. Thats if your religious cult allows you to see real factual information on this subject and not just church propaganda? Thats why religion and politics are so dangerous! (Did you know the word propaganda was invented by the catholic church?
The doco explains why abortion is now legal and why the horror of the backyard abortion industry caused by the ignorant religious and the pressure they had on far right politicians had to end.
It is strange how a doctor can be so horrified by the results of illegal abortion on young women being admitted to his hospital after having backyard abortions and dying of septicemia and other complications and others in the medical profession so oblivious to the facts.
Having his house fire bombed and hired hit men trying to kill him, why, because he may end the money and corruption having abortion illegal generated! There are thousands of pregnancies terminated do you think they will just stop because some imbecile thinks it's what an imaginary deity might want, it's like thinking the banning of contraception will stop people having sex, just ask that idiot Sarah Palins daughter, or the millions that now have AIDS in Africa because of the stupidity of catholic cult indoctrination banning condoms!
A few months ago, a right to life group were protesting in the main street. I tried to speak to them about this doco to see if any of them could be capable of thinking for themselves, but a controller refused to let me, the protesters were like mindless zombies with thousand yard stares, chanting holding bibles they could have been straight out of the 14th century, I told the controller he was like an organ grinder and these people were his trained dancing monkey's, to see people in this state was really frightening and reminded me of just how dangerous religion is!

I have never understood conservative Christianity or its obsession with sex and private morality. Jesus to be me was a gentle anarchist who was crucified for preaching a new way of looking at life based on what today we would call socialist principles or public morality. He taught us to care for the whole of creation which is hardly compatible with the conservative record or ideology. It's not surprising when the ruling class gets upset with Anglican bishops who occasionally raised the issue of social justice rather than rant on about abortion and gay marriages.

I used to work in Parliament House and attend the Christian prayer breakfasts but they were horrified if you suggested a guest speaker who had a progressive message - they wanted to keep politics out of it. Not surprisingly they were nearly all conservative Christians.

This doesn't mean you have to run as a Christian political party in secular Australia but it does involve you in working with NGOs for social justice, stewardship of resources, peace and human rights which no government in Australia will like. You expect that. Look what happened to those old prophets who preached justice and righteousness. No-one wants to be disturbed by that sort of stuff if you've got it made.

There is nothing remotely resembling Christianity in prosperity theology though it might make you feel good. I guess it's like the old days when Christianity was part of the social fabric to keep the revolting masses in their place only today it seems to have become positively reactionary and bears no resemblance to the Gospel message.

Jesus would arrive from the Middle East today in a leaky boat with no passport and both Kevin and John Howard would lock him up on Christmas Island, calling him a potential terrorist to boot.

Secularist are totally hypocritical when it comes to moral policy. I noticed Ms Gillard showing some sort of moral outrage about Lara's nude shot being shared around. If that was Mr Abbott the press would be hyperventilating in an effort to demonize his 'outdated' views. Without the Christian influence we would be all living like barbarians in this country (look at pre European settlement). This is clearly seen by the dwindling influence of Christianity now and the increase in violence, abortion, deceit, child abuse etc.

Yeah, runner, unlike those fundies that use quotes to "refute" evolution without having read the source, let alone the ones that take the quote out of context *for* them. When the ignorant are lied to by the hypocritical, the views you form are *so* much more admirable.

The incidence of all these terrible things was *so much* lower when the church had a stranglehold on our society. Yup *none at all* had abortions to avoid the immediate tirade from intolerant priests and stuffed shirts. Priests *never* abused their effective immunity from suspicion. Citizens *never* covered up rather than expose themselves to pillory for "scandal". Violence too has always been with us, arguably less now than ever. Get a helmet.

Dream on runner

Rusty

Where the hell are you coming from,runner?
Havent you studied anything of world history and the "golden" age of imperialism? All those wars were caused by religion.Christianity was the cause of millions of deaths.Christian culture made slavery an indispensible institution that promoted its fragile economies.More than half the globe was owned and abused by the British Empire on which the sun never set, it was so extensive.
Take a look at American intrusions in South America.
Want some more. Read the history of Palestine to see what religions have done to the victims there. The British were the principal villains. Please read, "God, Guns and Israel " by Jill Hamilton. There are hundreds of such modern works that reveal the Christian nexus and exploitation. It makes for sickening reading.
But before acquiring any modicum of the requisite knowledge there you are sooting your silly mouth off.
Stop running, runner. Slow down and look around.
I suppose there's none so blind who will not see.

Please. No more stupid comments.

socratease

Socrotease

I suggest don't dress your ignorance in such arrogance. Slavery was commonplace well before Christ came to earth in case you missed that fact. Take away your blinkers and you might be able to divert from your dogma. Have you heard of communism Socrotease? You are obviously oblivious to Stalin and Mao and Nth Korea. You obviously ignore that in this century more unborn babies have been murdered than people killed in WW1 and 2. If you are unable to see the fruit of secularism today it is obvious who is blind. Teen pregnancy, abortion, drug taking, suicide, pornography, child sex abuse are all a result of God forsaken philosophy known as secularism. Keep closing your eyes to the obvious Socrotease and just ease your conscience by believing the god deniers view of history which to a very large extent is fabricated.

And how would you know runner? More books and articles you haven't read for yourself? Since you just believe what you're told, 'n all.

Rusty.

No wonder you call yourself "runner".Very appropriate.
Just keep on running away from facts of history,Runner, and keep on going,clean off OLO preferably

socratease

Socratease why do you even bother debating with this guy?
Runner, in his decade or so at this place has not once made a convincing argument, or even made a single logical or thoughtful statement this entire time.

He sees 'information' and 'logic' as lies by the devil and avoids it like the plague- which is why he never actually mentions or analyzes a specific argument.

He supports a 'christian' government simply because it's christian and must be the way we live by- nuff said.