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The Forum > General Discussion > Freedom of Religion

Freedom of Religion

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Soon the government will introduce legislation to protect the rights of religion
I think it should pass, with no opersition
Yes this non-believer thinks those rights must be protected
Please be respectful, no matter what you think this subject needs that
What are we to do with other faiths rights? is there a border in this Christian country we, and no one should cross
FGM, Sharia law multiple wives,forced marriages, surely we have every right to say no to these practises?
We must walk gently and be very careful on this matter
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 7 July 2019 12:01:23 PM
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While Morrison's Religious Discrimination Bill would make it unlawful for people to be discriminated against for their religious beliefs, what about people who have no religious beliefs, but who hold the same beliefs on, say, same sex marriage? What about the atheist, agnostic, or totally irreligious person who speaks against it, not because of any dogma, but because he or she is simply disgusted by it and regards it as completely unnatural and harmful to children dragged into such relationships? Will their consciousnesses and dissent be respected, or will they have to shut up because they don't have a religion? Will they have protection to object to having their children taught about homosexuality in schools, nonsense about choosing gender, and so on? Or will they have to remain silent?

We don't need laws to protect religious beliefs - we need a revision of the freedoms of ALL people to be able to say what they want to say.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 7 July 2019 5:39:23 PM
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Rule of thumb.

If they break the law, regardless of religion or lack of religion, then they should be held accountable. One way or another a religous faith should not be a sanctuary for criminals. After that rule of thumb, let religion go. Let them teach and practice their religion. Unless there is harm being done, or it is ongoing off and on from one group or another, unless that is the case let them go and only have your counter voice and counter views be heard. Nothing more as punishments for holding a religion.

On that note, freedom of religion is great, but should it go further and have protection for the religions as well? Should vandalism from an active protest be ignored? Or protesters mobbing a person or group of faith and doing harm, is that something to is let go?

I'm shocked to hear a growing trend of Muslims growing violent and no action is done to fight this. But then I'm also shocked to hear secular protesters make a statement by pummeling a person trying to share their faith in public. Should freedom of religion also mean equal protections and equal punishments?
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 7 July 2019 5:53:19 PM
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We need to level the playing field, such things as penalty rates for Sunday work should be abolished as such rates are basically because of the sanctity of Sunday as a day of religious worship.

Likewise, all holidays that are based on religion,=; in a secular society such as Australia there is no place for Religious Holy Days; Christmas, Good Friday and Easter should have no more special meaning than Muslim and Jewish and other religions' special days.

By all means, let people observe their special days, be they holy or not, but they should not be paid for them if they take them off.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 7 July 2019 5:56:29 PM
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Rights conflict. Rights to express one's views are subordinate to the law, to the rights of individuals in law. One cannot break the law in the name of free speech.

As long as one expresses one's views without any incitement or threat of violence, or vilification, or humiliation - those rights should be protected. But rights to PRACTICE what one believes are subject to the law. So under-age marriage, FGM, differential treatment of women (where are the feminists these days ?) etc. should remain illegal: human rights trump rights to practise what one believes. Anybody can spout crap from the Bible or the Koran as much as they like, as long as nobody's human rights are infringed upon in the slightest.

There isn't a right not to be offended. Free speech presupposes the right to offend. Otherwise what the hell is it worth ? Anybody can offend me all they like, if it's possible. Anybody can criticise my behaviour if they think it's reprehensible in some way. No worries. Holding any idea up to the light of criticism is how social thought and philosophy have moved forward throughout history. We need more of it, not less.

Simple expression of different opinions is not vilification. To differ with someone is not to 'hate' them, despite what four-year-olds and snowflakes think.

Like you, Belly and Ttbn, I'm a non-believer, and probably my views and opinions might offend believers by denying their most fundamental beliefs. But both they and I have the right to express our conflicting views. I hope there never will be a world where those rights are banned.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 7 July 2019 6:18:21 PM
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Well never entered my head that muckraking was to be part of this thread
Ise Mise weekends, some thing we did not always have, anchors our culture
People have set days they,and their kids, can be together play sport just live
That is the reason to protect penalty rates not faith
Not-now-soon, ok agree
Law is law, let us not let some change that under the guise of freedom in faith any faith
Too my right to no longer believe in any God must be protected
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 7 July 2019 6:23:55 PM
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Why not simply make Religion to be kept inside the home ? Churches & other places of worship could be made into fantastic museums & cultural centers.
No money needed to build new ones.
Ban religion in public !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 7 July 2019 6:28:27 PM
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It's encouraging that both sides of politics
are willing to work together on the religious
discrimination bill proposed by the Prime Minister.

There's no question that our laws should ensure
that all people are protected from discrimination.

Hopefully the government will engage directly with
all community groups. They need to get the
balance right. Because if this legislation is not
crafted carefully it will hand a license to
discriminate to religious organisations.

That should be a grave concern.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 7 July 2019 6:45:18 PM
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Let me try and break it down to a few questions.

Does Freedom of Religion infer the right to advocate or commit unlawful, unethical or discriminatory acts based on the particular doctrine of that religious belief?

And if not, does that then mean freedom of religion is restricted?

Furthermore if a religion contains both malevolent and benevolent aspects should steps be taken to denounce those malevolent aspects?
- Or do we just accept them as a part of that religion? -

Now, before you respond;
I want you to consider the 21st Century religion 'Equality'.
Which means that whatever choice you make be mindful of this:

- What you do for one, you must do for the other -

For example you'd have to extend those rights to these kinds of religious believers:
http://www.learnreligions.com/how-luciferians-differ-from-satanists-95678

Don't assume all religions are the same, or all good or even restricted to the Abrahamic ones.

Disclaimer: I don't know the quality of this websites content as I just found it.
The homepage is here --> http://www.learnreligions.com/
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 7 July 2019 6:57:32 PM
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Belly,

It is the height of hypocrisy to deny that there is a God and then demand days off work in his name.

It's time that Australia joined some of the more enlightened countries of the world and abolished the weekend.
Sunday is held as special because of its religious connotations and has no place in a secular society.

By all means, let people have a couple of days off each week but stagger them throughout industry/business/service so that the country keeps working 7 days a week.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 7 July 2019 8:05:40 PM
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Is Mise,

What about the Republicans who celebrate the
Queen's Birthday? What about the non-gamblers
on Melbourne Cup Day?

And so on.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 7 July 2019 8:14:41 PM
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Foxy,

"What about the Republicans who celebrate the
Queen's Birthday? What about the non-gamblers
on Melbourne Cup Day?

And so on."

Hypocrites all.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 7 July 2019 10:13:16 PM
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To Individual.

How are the places of worship harming anyone else? How is having a religion freely expressed in public harmful?

Banning a religion from being in the public should only be reserved for a religious group that is actually harmful. Otherwise what you're suggesting is that religions go underground, and meet in secret. People of a faith usually come together to teach, pray, and worship. Is there a public harm in these activities that they must be restricted away from the public. (If someone gets angry or offended, that's not the same as if they are actually harmed).

Again if there is actual harm from one religion or even just one group within that religion, then let the reactions and punishment fall on that group. Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists should not be punished for the actions of Muslim gangs being formed. Nor should innocent groups be punished for cruelty and to animals done by some satanist (or any other pass by the night belief calling itself a religion) that descides Halloween is the perfect time to mutliate a cat, a rabbit, or any other animal they can get their hands on.

If a religion is innocent of the harm another one causes, should the first religion (and all religions) be punished for something they did not do?
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 8 July 2019 2:49:26 AM
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http://www.smh.com.au/education/at-some-sydney-schools-fewer-than-one-in-10-students-choose-scripture-20190705-p524kk.html
Ise Mise you damn your own words because you put zero thought in to them or others rghts
The link can not be ignored, it however in no way says anything other than everyone's rights in this area should be respected
However, we must be sure any new law is not used to target one side or the other
It is a minefield, please believe it
Can a Christian school sack a teacher who is not Christian? maybe
But can a Islamic School do the same
Will some fool, one day, claim FGM is religious right?
The whole idea needs thought, let us do this right
Now for the person intent on side tracking this debate, Saturday is not a Christian holiday, Friday is for some, seventh day adventists indeed have Saturday as their sabbath
the concept of weekends is no longer a religious one, it it family time together
NOTE over 20 percent told us last census they follow no faith, the however almost for sure have family fun on weekends
Posted by Belly, Monday, 8 July 2019 6:51:21 AM
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It is the height of hypocrisy to deny that there is a God and then demand days off work in his name.
Is Mise,
yep and, the religious are exploiting the control they influence people with in his name ! Hyporcrites also !

How are the places of worship harming anyone else? How is having a religion freely expressed in public harmful?
Not_Now.Soon,
Because it is an imposition of superstition in order to gain compliance !
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 July 2019 7:53:50 AM
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Does ones persons right to 'not be offended by something'

- Outweigh -

Another persons right to 'express what they think and believe'?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 8 July 2019 8:17:25 AM
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Hey individual,

Some people don't care much for ANZAC Day either but they still take the freebie.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 8 July 2019 8:20:12 AM
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I believe that everyone should have the right to express what they know and what they think.

Problem when it comes to debates over religion is that people lose sight of the fact that religious views are used to bring about political, social or economic action to promote the interests of one group over other groups. So debates on religious freedom extend beyond the limits of epistemological arguments and are really exercises in political persuasion.

We have institutions outside of religion that control political activities that give rise to power and authority in our society. This is why the modern nation states abandoned monarchical authority and separated politics and religion in the wake of the Enlightenment.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 8 July 2019 10:19:58 AM
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Some people don't care much for ANZAC Day either but they still take the freebie.
Armchair critic,
ANZAC Day is prove of peoples' sacrifice for others. Is Christmas Day ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 July 2019 10:24:54 AM
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Previously, the church had an overbearing influence on society, and so steps were taken to limit the power of religion on secular society.

Today, the pendulum has swung so far that the "oppressed" have now become the oppressors and the inquisition and its acolytes scan social media for any sign of subversive commentary with kangaroo courts excommunicating offenders from society and employment.

While the most egregious examples are those who have failed to modify their religious beliefs to conform to the new secular doctrines for whom this thread is about, there are many others falling victim to the star chambers of the activists for whom truth is no defense.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 8 July 2019 10:26:25 AM
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Some of the things Christians, and to those who only think they are, are demanding from this bill, need watching
Remember many faiths exist, would we want cults to benefit, even be protected by the new laws
Do most of us think Scientology is a religion
Do we want to protect it
The new laws must not protect wrong, ever
Posted by Belly, Monday, 8 July 2019 12:13:23 PM
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Well good luck indeed:

God knows that we badly need our freedom to follow our religion, whatever it may be, but how on earth can ordinary people in general and a secular government in particular, tell whether the particular behaviour of a particular person at a particular time is indeed religious or otherwise?!?

The only way to avoid preventing people from performing their duties to God, is to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, allowing the maximum freedom to everyone under all circumstances to do as they please, just in case their behaviour is indeed religious.

Is the government serious about protecting religious freedoms? I will start to believe this once Sikhs are allowed to carry their kirpans (ritual daggers) on planes.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 8 July 2019 3:10:18 PM
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Yuyutsu,
I don't believe God wanted us to invent religion. He/she/it simply wants us to be decent, alas !
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 July 2019 3:21:42 PM
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Dear Individual,

Being decent is a pre-requisite for religion, it is step one without which all our attempts to reach God would collapse in shambles.

But why stop at that?

Decency makes no sense on its own: why ought we to exert ourselves to be decent, fighting against our animal nature, if there are no lasting rewards and all is to end anyway once our body falls off?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 8 July 2019 3:37:34 PM
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Religion is evolving, still
By sheer accident saw Ray Martin researching his ancestry to day
It turns out his Irish ancestors [Catholic] had to pay money in the form of tithes, to support the Protestant Church
Some religions practised today did not exist at my birth
I doubt yuyutsu, any faith has the right to treat any other badly
But believe I know many followers, of any faith, do not share my view
Posted by Belly, Monday, 8 July 2019 4:19:22 PM
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I well remember Seventh Day Adventists refusing to work on Saturdays but being willing and eager to work Sundays because of the double- time payments.

Not one of them knocked it back because it was, to them, just an ordinary day,
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 8 July 2019 6:06:17 PM
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if there are no lasting rewards and all is to end anyway once our body falls off?
Yuyutsu,
A rather religious workmate was worried about flying with a certain pilot. When I asked him why he told me he was worried about crashing. I found that odd because aren't religious people looking forward to meet their maker ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 July 2019 6:37:55 PM
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Dear Individual,

«aren't religious people looking forward to meet their maker ?»

Sure, but why is it necessary for your body to die in the process if it can be avoided?

According to Hinduism, one can unite with God even while their body is well and alive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jivanmukta

If you realise God while alive, then you can use your body and mind very effectively in His service, to do His will on earth as it is done in heaven, but if you lose your body too early, then you need to be reborn and study everything again, including your religion, while suffering again from the helplessness and maladies of childhood: not a bright prospect!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 8 July 2019 11:51:45 PM
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To Individual.

Replying to what harm religion is to be in the public, you said: "Because it is an imposition of superstition in order to gain compliance !"

It sounds like you don't agree with religions so you just don't want them to be taught. It almost sounds like a power struggle between imposing a belief of no god over the religions that believe in God, or believe in multiple gods.

As long as no one is being harmed though, religion should be allowed to be taught in public. In order to be free to explore these ideas and anyone being able to find the truth, others have to be able to express their religion freely. Even publicly.

The Freedom to practice and express a person's religion isn't harming a nonbeliever. In fact many religions have some teaching to help the needy and the poor. So even nonbelievers will gain a service from the religious population, without having to believe in it themselves.

Where it could become a danger is when a religious group demands people to believe or to be put to death, like many Islamic nations stance to kill someone who's turns away from Islam to another religion, and passively watches other religious people being killed because they aren't Islamic. That isn't freedom of religion. With freedom of religion a person has the right to not believe in a religion. I'm sure you support the freedom to not have a religion, why would you want to remove that right to those who have a religion in their lives? Are nonbelievers' rights more important then everyone else's? (Again this sounds like a power struggle more then it does about rights).
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 2:02:09 AM
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To Mr. Opinion

You said, "people lose sight of the fact that religious views are used to bring about political, social or economic action to promote the interests of one group over other groups." This really is about a power struggle more then it is about rights isn't it? Being free to express and practice a religion would affect all parts of a person's life. Including politics, jobs, and anything else. That comes with the territory of freedom. If a person believes in something then they will act on that belief. As long as there's no harm to another person, then shouldn't everyone have the freedom to practice their religion in their lives? Even the freedom to practice no religion?

To Armchair Critic.

No one has the right to not be offended. From children at school kids say hurtful things that can make other kids run home in tears. At older ages offensive, snide full comments almost become an art form for teenagers. (From what I've heard this quality of sideways back biting is more common among women being disrespectful to other women, regardless of age). As adults there's a whole circus of what is PC and what isn't that gets redefined at a moment's notice. If there's a right to not be offended it's a minefield that is outside the scope of religion. Nor can a right to not be offended be legally protected because anyone can get offended without warning.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 2:28:31 AM
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To Belly.

I've heard stories of Scientology, and how it is harmful to those who are in it. I would stand against this religion because of what it does, and I would hope that everyone can recognize the differences between religions so that the harms in one religion aren't the reason to oppose another. As far as I'm aware (correct me if I'm wrong) neither Hinduism nor Buddhism commit the level of fraud and blackmail that are common stories anomg ex-scientoligists. Should those religions be punished for something they are innocent from?
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 2:38:20 AM
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religion should be allowed to be taught in public.
Not_Now.Soon,
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 7:26:26 AM
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Not-now-soon that subject is one to be very very careful with
For no other reason than that cult/faith, is very rich very powerful and in my personal view not a true faith
It sues
The thread is meant to be about the upcoming legislation, its need, [we do need rules]
But too the pitfalls along the way, this is an emotional subject, but we must not let the very real dangers be ignored
Back to matters of being taken to court for your views
This Increasingly mad world sees that tool to silence truthful debate,will impact us all in the next few years
I differ with you on religion, it should be free to practice but no faith ever, should be involved in any government
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 8:41:06 AM
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Are nonbelievers' rights more important then everyone else's?
Not_Now.Soon,
I wouldn't call myself a non-believer, more of a not fully convinced ! Religion is not one of God's ways to make us believe in him/her/it. Religion is a man-made control mechanism in my view, nothing to do with God ! I'd imagine if there is indeed this almighty being/force then it'll be the religious who'll be left behind.
Doesn't believing in God mean to also treat our fellow human beings with respect ? Where is such respect when one watches the romp & pomp of religious ceremonies whilst the poor are looking on ? To me, religion & its followers are the height of hypocrisy !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 9:20:01 AM
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I hope it is realised that the Religious Discrimination Bill, if Morrison is stupid enough to go ahead with it, will apply to all religions, not just Christianity. The people belly aching about what Folau said will hear some really nice things said by Muslims about homosexuality and all the other 'sins'. What else will Muslims be able to say, and do, in the name of religious freedom and Allah?
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 10:18:49 AM
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Hi TTbn,

I hope that Muslims will be given the complete freedom to espouse all of their doctrines, in the full view of all Australians: their views on women in particular, under-age marriage, polygamy, stoning, beheadings, FGM, the inferior rights of women to property and inheritance, etc. Hopefully the 'Left' will get over their Gee-wow worship of everything different, and realise (faint hope) that much of Islam is backward, reactionary (in a Marxist sense) and frankly vile.

But i do like the verse in the Koran (is it 5: 32 ?) which says that if an innocent person is killed, it is as if the whole of humanity has been killed. Did this verse apply in Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday, I wonder ? But then the book craps itself with the next verse, that anybody who insults the prophet, let his right hand and left foot by cut off. Real civilised.

Yes, let 100 flowers bloom, every beautiful and every rotten one of them: everybody, show us what you're on about.

But right to implement those beliefs ? That's a very different kettle of fish.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 10:57:37 AM
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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«I've heard stories of Scientology, and how it is harmful to those who are in it.»

Religion brings its practitioners closer to God, so how could it possibly be harmful?

If harm was indeed done, as we both heard, then the implication is that, despite whatever they claim, Scientology is not a religion.

---

Dear Individual,

«Are nonbelievers' rights more important then everyone else's?»

Are we discussing the freedom to believe or the freedom to observe the practical aspects of one's religion?
The former is not under threat and does not require any legislation - the latter does.

You may not be a believer, but you could still be more religious than others who believe in God. It could well be that the romp & pomp of ceremonies is not for you, not part of your particular religion, but suppose your private religion consists of helping the poor, then a legislation to protect religious freedoms should also protect your freedom to help the poor.

The difficulty, however, is that we cannot expect the legislators and law-enforcement agencies to be able to distinguish which behaviours are religious and which are not. This is why I wrote earlier that we should all have maximum freedom in order to enjoy the benefit of the doubt.

Everyone has a religion, whether they recognise it or not, and whether or not it includes a set of beliefs, thus the protection of the freedom of religion is in the interest of everyone.

---

Dear Ttbn,

«What else will Muslims be able to say, and do, in the name of religious freedom and Allah?»

Possibly anything, but would those words and acts that are done IN THE NAME OF RELIGION indeed be religious?

If I correctly understand it, the proposed legislation is to protect religion, not to protect acts that are religious in name only!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 11:30:03 AM
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The right not to believe should be protected
But every faith, now or in its history has not seen it that way
Could dig deeper in to that, but the thread is about getting the right balance in the coming bill
Not rehashing past or present sins of any faith
But understanding most faiths have falling numbers of followers should be said and protected too
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 11:33:29 AM
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To Belly.

I don't know the details of the new legislation, but I'm hoping the articles that reference the new bill are truthful, and that this bill would be able to be used as a shield in a fight against cooperations firing and using their leverage to demand people to shun or walk away from their religion. However in order to do that instead of making a law a weapon against the rights of others by using religion as an excuse, the law would need to be worded well, and well defined. I agree a balance in the legislation is a must. Hope it can happen.

As for the Scientology concern, I'm not afraid of them. On the other hand, I'm also not in a place to be able to fight them outside of warn others about them and tell them not to go near that religion. That said if what's being said against them by ex-believers is true then that is something worth standing against. There are dark spots in most religions and popular beliefs. But nothing gets changed if those issues aren't even brought up and addressed.

To Yuyutsu.

We aren't going to agree on what it means to have a religion, and I don't want to fight over redefining words. So I'll say it this way instead, by giving you an example. Around the world there are claims of sexual misconduct among Christian leaders. It doesn't matter whether they are Catholic or Orthodox clergy, or Protestant pastors and leaders. The point is that they used a position that is trusted and honored to hide behind when they committed the harms they did to others. I say this while also accepting Christianity as being from God. (Not all of Christian philosophies and doctrines, but that's up to Him to discern more then it's up to me). The harms that comes from within the church (including the leaders and the false doctrines) should be able to be addressed and corrected. Just as they were in the first chapters few of Revelation, the last book in the bible.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 12:47:56 PM
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To Individual.

Same thing as with Yuyutsu applies to you. I don't want to play word wizard and redefine what it means to be a believer or a nonbeliever. So here's where I see it. Unbeliever or just unconvinced, you're more then willing to shut the door from public ministry by shutting down churches, (based on what you've said earlier on Sunday, 7 July 2019 6:28:27 PM, regarding banning religion in public). On that matter we can't just agree to disagree, because I know that the truth shouldn't be silenced. In order to not be silenced it needs to be able to be taught and challenged to see if it holds up as the truth after all. God is real, and silencing that knowledge from the public is a horrible thought.

To Ttbn.

Islam has been fighting a battle of increasing it's rights over others. So I understand your caution against Islam. However, I would rather fight that battle on it's own without sacrificing a Christian, or any other religious person from being able to live by their faith and seek what is true or not.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 12:49:21 PM
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Yuyutsu,

What the proposed act will have in it is still a big secret know possibly only to Morrison, a man of many secrets when it comes to answering questions and saying what he really believes, if anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by religious in name only. If it's in the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas or the Guru Granth Sahib, it is 'religious': Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

I don't know that any religion in Australia is in need of protection. Constitutionally, sec. 116 says only this about religion: it

"precludes the Commonwealth of Australia (i.e., the federal parliament) from making laws for establishing any religion, imposing any religious observance, or prohibiting the free exercise of any religion."

I don't even know the government has any right to make new laws. I think that anyone should be able to say what they like about anyone, to anyone. It's what people do that can be a problem.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 1:26:45 PM
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Dear Ttbn,

«I'm not sure what you mean by religious in name only. If it's in the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas or the Guru Granth Sahib, it is 'religious': Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.»

Religion is the path which leads you to God.
There is a path for everyone, so anyone can come to God, no matter how far they are at present.
That which does not lead to God could be a "religion" only in name.

Scripture is there to help us find the path, but reading it is insufficient, because:
1) As we approach God from different circumstances, our individual paths vary, at least to a degree.
2) Our ego and out-of-control desires can easily make us interpret the scriptures wrongly.
3) Scripture is written in archaic languages and assume a particular cultural background which no longer exists.
4) Scripture is often cryptic and multi-layered.

Just as you would not attempt to climb the Everest on your own after only reading a book about it, to find your own religion, your own path to God, preferably the shortest and easiest path for you, you also need a living and proficient teacher to guide you, one who at least is closer to the destiny than yourself.

«I don't know that any religion in Australia is in need of protection.»

A few examples:

* A Jew can presently be dragged into court, say as a witness, on the Sabbath or on Jewish holidays. This breaks their 4th-commandment obligation to not drive/travel or activate electric/electronic devices on the Sabbath.

* Sikhs are not allowed to carry their kirpans on flights, despite their obligation to carry it at all times.

* Hindus are limited in their ability to bring cows into temples (on grounds of "health-and-safety" and "animal-rights").

* Christian confessions can no longer be carried out due to reporting obligations.

* The state could try to break consecrated vows (silence for example).

«I think that anyone should be able to say what they like about anyone, to anyone.»

Surely the freedom of religion means much more than freedom of speech!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 2:46:18 PM
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Belly,

"I differ with you on religion, it should be free to practice but no faith ever, should be involved in any government"

Not even in the government of the Vatican?

What about Mount Athos?

"Although Mount Athos is legally part of the European Union like the rest of Greece, the Monastic State of the Holy Mountain and the Athonite institutions have a special jurisdiction which was reaffirmed during the admission of Greece to the European Community (precursor to the EU). This empowers the Monastic State's authorities to regulate the free movement of people and goods in its territory; in particular, only males are allowed to enter."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 4:02:40 PM
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Ise Mise be careful what you wish for
Do you think Islam should have a hold on so many governments?
To the extent it runs some totally
Should they control every single aspect of life in those countries
At the start [we could have just continued posting in the existing thread] I spoke about caution needed and reminded the rights would be for every faith
My rights not to believe need protecting too
And I firmly, demand, no faith ever again controls or plays any formal role, in how we are governed
We must take in to consideration many, from all faiths, do not practice that faith and in increasing numbers no longer believe
As is their right
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 July 2019 4:54:50 PM
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Yesterday one of the heads of Islam in this country, as expected, called for protection for his faith too
That faiths followers number about 3 percent of us, but yes should be protected
HOW do we avoid true problems
the Jewish faith is likely to number twice the Islamic one,they too want protection
This matter must be handled with great care
It also must never be used to ignore our laws
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 11:55:53 AM
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I think that the opponents of FoR are guilty of going to extremes. The rational man approach needs to be taken.

For example, a religious man that regularly attends church that refuses to make a cake with pro gay sex slogans on it is not trying to be offensive rather the reverse.

However, a notionally religious man with no record of religious devotions cannot claim religion for doing something offensive.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 12:33:27 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Thank you for this creative suggestion:

It is a good start, a good attempt, but how can we expect government and law-enforcement agencies to distinguish between the truly-religious and the notionally-religious?

To be able to do this, you need someone like a prophet with a divine sight into other people's hearts, but I don't believe that any prophets are currently employed, or available to be employed in the public service...

To ensure that no truly-religious person is prosecuted for refusing to bake a cake, the only available solution in our age is to give people the benefit of the doubt and allow everyone to freely choose their customers in their own private business. Choosing to refuse customers on the basis of race/gender/sexuality/etc, would anyway prove to be a very miserable and costly business strategy.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 1:57:22 PM
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Y,

It is not original, it is the position the US supreme court took.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 2:24:20 PM
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We have always had freedom of religion. You can be religious or not; there is no official religion; our head of state isn't the head of any religion. Quoting the Bible or any other religious tract is not illegal. Nothing Israel Folau said is illegal. The government doesn't care about what he said, and not should they. That instance is purely a matter between him and his employer. A mob of snow flakes and minorities carrying on like cut cats doesn't make the affair an official or legal issue for anyone other than Folau and Rugby Australia. It should be a non-event for everyone else.

Freedom of religion is alive and well in Australia. So is the rule of law which is more than adequate to keep our society civilised. We have too many laws already.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 3:47:53 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/incited-by-charismatic-monks-buddhist-militant-aggression-on-the-rise-20190710-p525x0.html
I get no joy out of the link yuyutsu will not either
I understand Shadow Ministers post
But truly fear, no other word will do, the rise in very radical movements within every faith
For those reasons I support the need for legislation'
But warn again it is no easy task
It must not discriminate, against, or for, any faith
Too is must not become part of any government's thinking about how to govern, we must confront the rise of hate is an enemy of every faith
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 3:51:11 PM
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I'm offended by the insidious hypocrites hiding behind religion !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 6:19:25 PM
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'I'm offended by the insidious hypocrites hiding behind religion !'

good to see you joining the offense brigade Individual. Guaranteed to see yourself as a victim and justifying hating those who have a different view.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 6:44:17 PM
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runner,
Well, you had to bring up hate, didn't ya ! Disagreement not crap-stirring enough for you ?
I don't hat & don't object to different views. I do however strongly object to perpetually having to fend off hypocrites & the damage they cause !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 7:12:06 PM
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Belly,

"Ise Mise be careful what you wish for
Do you think Islam should have a hold on so many governments?"

I didn't wish for anything, that's just your normal misreading of posts.

But I do hope that in the new legislation a Hindu shopkeeper will have to stop paying his staff extra for working on a Holy Day that honours a religion that he does not believe in.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 7:43:32 PM
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runner fair go mate! please understand in my days as a believer you very clearly, would not be considered one
In fact I truly think Christians like you do far more damage to that faith and anyone
Ise Mise, well you do try, try that is to insert your twisted views about industrial relations in to every thread
Just letting you know I give no weight to your view
HATE is an unwanted product of those who misuse their faith, miss read it, never ever understand it
We however must deal with it of see every faith slowly decline
Scomom under attack for his visit to hill song, not sure why see it in SMH
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 July 2019 7:10:22 AM
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hate hate hate. Yep typical marxist rubbish by those who disagree with them. Of course the likes of antifa, unionist, homosexual lobby are so so full of love. Look at the hate directed towards Folua for simply telling the truth.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 11 July 2019 11:49:00 AM
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Stagger me! Belly is now an expert on who's Christian. We know he couldn't read the Bible, so where does his great knowledge come from?
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 11 July 2019 12:16:56 PM
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Belly,

"Ise Mise, well you do try, try that is to insert your twisted views about industrial relations in to every thread"

It's not primarily about industrial relations, it's about freedom of religion.

Give me one good reason why a person who does not follow a particular religion or is an atheist should pay followers of another/any religion extra for working on one of their Holy Days?

It's not only unfair but religious discrimination.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 11 July 2019 12:39:49 PM
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In keeping with 'post-Christian' Australia, Essential Poll reveals that only 38% of Australians favour more protection for religion. I think that the result would come from sheer ignorance of the importance of Christianity to Western society, and the further ignorance in the misbelief that all religions are equal.

Of course, one of the loaded questions was 'should people be allowed to use religion to abuse others'. You would have to be pretty dumb to think that it was ever suggested that Christians wanted the right to abuse people.

Of course, there are a lot of pretty dumb people out there, including the ones who set questions for polls.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 11 July 2019 12:48:48 PM
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Well good intentions are not enough when the three stooges get together
TRY TO BE NICE, WHAT A GRUB!
Have read the Bible many times, every word
For me it was about love equality humanity, for runner it is about HATE
Ise Miserable, you know don't you? at some spot deep inside you know you are nuts
IF we lived as our God, any or all of them, called us to, this world would be heaven, truly
The thread is not about my understanding, firm belief, no God ever existed
I think it is a Warning, plea for great care, see if we get this bill wrong, it will be used by folk like you three, to do great harm.
And further degrade belief in God, any God, as he/she becomes a weapon for the truly lost, God is love not hate
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 July 2019 2:13:20 PM
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Rave on Belly. You are only fooling yourself.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 11 July 2019 2:49:47 PM
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Again this thread asks question and warns about one of the very real problems we may make for ourselves
IF we do not get it right, already some are intent on using this thread to display a truly ignorant view on everything
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 July 2019 5:06:17 PM
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Belly,

"... some are intent on using this thread to display a truly ignorant view on everything"

Glad to see that you think that confession is good for the soul.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 11 July 2019 9:48:23 PM
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ise miserable let's close the thread
It is clear you are a Garry, unable to talk sense on just about any subject you roll around in the mud you create
The subject will be in the spotlight soon, and we could have truly talked about it
OH not you, your lack of abilities is noted
SELF CONFIDENCE the most misplaced tool in your tool box old mate
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 July 2019 7:07:08 AM
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the three stooges
Belly,
in golfing terms that'd make you a hole in one !
Posted by individual, Friday, 12 July 2019 9:21:11 AM
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Belly,

You are an atheistic hypocrite, willing to accept extra money for working on a Holy Day that is dedicated to a religion's God that you deny exists.

Now let's be fair and all have a day off for the Jewish Holy Days.

"Jewish celebrations are not limited to life-cycle events. As do all religions, Judaism sets aside certain holidays and days of remembrance as holy days. These holy days are scheduled according to the Jewish calendar."
http://www.rossel.net/basic06.htm

Then there are the Muslim Holy Days.

"Although many Muslims follow the Western solar or Gregorian calendar for everyday purposes, all Muslims use the lunar Hijiri calendar to determine Islam’s holy days and holidays. The Hijiri year has 12 months of 29 or 30 days each (depending on the moon), and thus is 11 days shorter than the Gregorian year. This means that these dates are out of sync with Gregorian dates. The two calendars coincide only every 33 years. Muslim holy days can last from one day to as long as a full month"
http://classroom.synonym.com/what-are-the-holy-days-of-islam-12083777.html

Just think, with all those extra Holy Days the unbelievers could have a real bludge.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 July 2019 10:50:12 AM
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AT BEST Ise Mise you are a troll
Never saw a post from you that did not insult others
Like your first original thought I think head acres are rare for you
Try harder
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 July 2019 11:34:14 AM
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Looking at all the comments on this thread, I would suggest that the PM drop any ideas he has of trying to legislate on this issue. Otherwise he will end up with more fights than Jimmy Sharmons tent at the local show. Falou and the ARU will sort themselves out given time.

Leave sleeping cats lie and concentrate on preventing those with alien cultural practices from coming here and disrupting our society.

Our political forebears have stuffed up our immigration system by being too open and the gate needs to be closed. There are plenty of other issues that require our attention before we start on the various demands of different religions.
Posted by HenryL, Friday, 12 July 2019 12:12:54 PM
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A lot of sense there, Henry.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 12 July 2019 12:16:28 PM
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Belly,

Those who deny God yet profit from penalty rates on Holy Days are bludgers.

A principled atheist would refuse such money or donate it to charity.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 July 2019 1:32:31 PM
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Not near a sane comment
See Weekends are for family and cultural reasons, many more than our spite filled poster wants believe in no God
Many have other faiths, more from every group, want weekends
It is part of our very culture sports dozens of things we do together
If Christ existed he may wallop you for your constant miss use of him
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 July 2019 4:16:15 PM
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It is rather the employee's religion which matters, not the employer's.

Penalty rates act as a temptation for people to stray from their religion and work on days/times when their religion forbids them from working.

Just as religious people should never be made to work on such days/times, employers too ought to have the freedom to refrain from offering their religious employees work on days/times when that would place these employees in sin.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 12 July 2019 5:22:24 PM
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yuyutsu please
Yes when penalty rates first came about many many more followers of God, any one of them existed
IF penalty rates are for Church goers not being able to why not Friday for Islam
What is the Jewish day of worship
At my birth 44 hour weeks was the norm, four hours on Saturday for many
A union now part of the CFMMEU marched for 40 hour week, 8 hours work 8 for sleep/rest and eight just for living
Any thought, or effort to force others to think it is about faith is constructed
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 July 2019 6:57:54 PM
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Belly,

Christmas Day celebrates the birth of Christ, why would an atheist want extra pay for working on that day?

Seems like bludging on religion to me?

Did you give your penalty rates to charity?

Freedom of religion should also be about freedom from having to recognize religious practices of a religion to which one does not belong.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 July 2019 7:09:25 PM
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why would an atheist want extra pay for working on that day?
Is mise,
Why would a Christian ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 13 July 2019 7:10:16 AM
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ise mise we live in different worlds, you just maybe live in one that does not exist
All around me, Churches in country villages, ones built on donated land, built by free labour
Are looking bright and like new
They now house restaurants, takeaways, even the products of winerys
Not your saint like invisible Church goers
Even once proud and strong Catholic Monasteries, three within reach, struggle to remain open
Fact is I am far from alone in my view the weekend has evolved to be nothing to do with Christianity
Mate your insistence black is in fact while, should warn you
Christianity is damaged by such as you, not helped
Now a truth you by inserting your anti worker stuff here show little respect or interest in, the very real need for a bill that while protecting does no harm to every faith
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 July 2019 7:20:55 AM
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I can not get my head around ise mise, in truth his insistence weekends are the property of his faith, is weird
And not unlike some of the things that make most of us shuder from radical Islam
Sure the point of this thread [can it be I got it wrong] is not his bigoted view of wage earners rights?
Maybe I should call for a bill to protect non believers from bigoted believers?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 July 2019 11:59:11 AM
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Belly,

Just tell me why an atheist/Christian/Buddist/Islamic/Hindu/
whatever shop keeper/businessman should have to pay extra to his Christian staff (and all the unbelievers as well) who work on one of their Holy Days?

Freedom from religious discrimination is what we should also be looking at in Freedom of Religion.

Individual,

Christians shouldn't get any special rates for working on their Holy Days.

We need a level playing field.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 July 2019 11:59:57 AM
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Well, taking all things into consideration, I have concluded that freedom of speech in general - for the religious and irreligious alike - is in more urgent need protection than religion is, in Australia anyway.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 13 July 2019 3:54:45 PM
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ise mise we enter waters best avoided when you MANUFACTURE belief that penalty rates are an insult to the God you pretend to support
YOU in a post on this page, told me rights are not needed if that faith is not yours?
Are you fair dinkum? do you truely insist on your rather silly request that every one live by your rather bigoted view?
Wages Slaves are in my view a madness you seem to want
Is your view of God one that insists on class warfare that keeps workers poorly fed and housed?
As said God would wallop you if he existed
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 July 2019 4:48:50 PM
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Just answer the questions, Belly, why do you believe that non-believers should pay their workers more on the workers' Holy Days?

Sundays are a prime example, they are only Holy Days because one of the Popes decided that they are and although the Bible insists that "...though keep holy the Sabbath Day."; the Sabbath is actually Saturday.

Why would you want people to be paid extra just because the Pope issued a decree??
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 July 2019 5:53:07 PM
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We need a level playing field.
Is Mise,
The Public Servants would fight tooth & nail to prevent that !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 13 July 2019 6:45:27 PM
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Individual,

Spot on, vested interests to the fore!!

As Australia is seen as a secular society then true Freedom of Religion should include freedom from religion and a good place to start would be Parliament by doing away with the prayers and also removing any mention of God in the Constitution.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 July 2019 6:58:16 PM
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Is Mise,

I take it then that your idea on Help
from Above would be a sniper on the roof? :-)
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 13 July 2019 7:50:48 PM
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Dear Belly,

«Yes when penalty rates first came about many many more followers of God»

I am not so sure: indeed more conformed to organised Christianity at the time, but were they actually following God? were they actually thinking about God while in church or were they instead thinking of the other people and following social conventions?

«IF penalty rates are for Church goers not being able to why not Friday for Islam»

Yes, them too.

As I understand it, Christians (other than 7th-day adventists) are required to attend Mass on Sundays, but there is no fixed time, so as there are many churches around that celebrate a Mass at different times, workers can attend Mass in the morning or in the afternoon, so long as they are not made to work all day. Muslims are not that flexible because a minimum quorum of 40 men is required for Friday prayers and there are fewer mosques, so it is not so easy to find alternate times for prayer. Either way, it makes sense to compensate religious workers who might have to exert themselves and travel far to find alternate services - but not if they do not go!

«What is the Jewish day of worship»

Jews worship every day, a minimum of 3 times a day, but they do not necessarily need a congregation for that.
The issue with Judaism is different, nothing to do with worship: according to the 4th commandment, Jews are not allowed to work on the Sabbath (and some Jewish holidays), which begins at sunset on Friday evenings and concludes when it is quite dark on Saturday nights (altogether about 25 hours). During that time they also cannot drive, travel or carry money/documents, so they need some extra time on Friday afternoons to get home and empty their pockets.

But surely you must already be aware of this issue from your work as a union representative.

A conscientious employer should be able to refuse not only penalty rates, but work altogether, to weak-minded Jews and 7th-day adventists who agree to work on the Sabbath.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 13 July 2019 7:59:39 PM
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Yuyutsu,

"As I understand it, Christians (other than 7th-day adventists) are required to attend Mass on Sundays,"

Generally, only Catholics attend Mass and as Mass is celebrated in most places on Saturday evening (and attendance counts as Sunday attendance).
Therefore there is even less need for any monetary compensation for working on a Sunday.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 July 2019 9:49:30 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/a-perception-of-a-problem-rather-than-a-real-problem-kingmaker-senator-questions-level-of-religious-discrimination-20190711-p526d8.html
Ise Mise swapping insults will change nothing
Sir you need to know, you truly do, your constant asking silly questions
Demanding I answer yet again, until my multiple answers suit your opinion?
Say more about you than me, BUT it reminds me you are not and never will be, other than a pain in the lower back
The link is an attempt to get back on subject
Not likely, see you side track many threads,with child like demands I think like you
LOOK at your posts,you chant endlessly are we there yet , hold your breath stamp your feet and seem intent on continuing to behave like a petulant child
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 July 2019 6:42:17 AM
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yuyutsu mydays as a Christian saw full on belief and a wish for God's good deeds to be done by all
Believe it, I watched the fall of religion as it started
A long gone Preacher, once a TV elangalist, sent a woman he was related to on stage on crutches, she walked off without them, but never ever needed them in the first place
People loved God, his teachers too
Today find me a Church not tainted by that misplaced trust, find me a faith that truly helps the poor
Religion in my view comes with a cash register these days
My God would not have declared workers being paid more for their only product, time and effort, was worse than ever increasing profits for their boss
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 July 2019 6:52:04 AM
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Belly,

"Demanding I answer yet again, until my multiple answers suit your opinion?"

What answers?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 July 2019 8:03:38 AM
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Belly,

Here's one faith "that truly helps the poor".

"The [Catholic] Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world.

Even these numbers only tell half the tale. Caritas does not include development spending by a host of religious orders and other Catholic charities, while most of the 200,000 Catholic parishes around the world operate their own small-scale charitable projects which are never picked up in official figures. Establishing like-for-like comparisons is hard, but there can be little doubt that in pretty much every field of social action, from education to health to social care, the Church is the largest and most significant non-state organisation in the world.

A sceptic might point out that that influence can be both positive and negative. So, for example, it might be queried whether the Church’s work in education or health would be more effective if control was switched to the state. In some ways, this is the wrong question – in much of the developing world, if the Church was not involved, the services would not be provided at all. But there is a good deal of research which has attempted to compare the performance of Catholic provision of education or health with that of other providers and, in general, Catholic institutions come out rather well.
http://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/february-17th-2017/a-worldwide-force-for-good/
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 July 2019 8:54:56 AM
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then there is Anglicare, the Salvation Army and not forgetting Vinnies which is a Catholic organization but independent of Church control.

All help the poor; and the not do poor by running OP Shops.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 July 2019 9:51:36 AM
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Unrelated to the thread ise mise
And ignoring the findings of the royal commission
And World wide findings
Too a reluctance to pay victims
For sure and certain some of the Catholic institutions have been seen as not safe for children
Thankfully in a very early post I said our law should always come first
And that any changes should not protect bad things
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 July 2019 11:54:07 AM
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The freedom of religion legislation ScuMo wants to push through parliament is nothing more that a ploy to shore up the pro-Christian and nationalist extremists, firstly among the LNP politicians, secondly with cross benchers and senators, and thirdly with conservative voters. ScuMo is exactly like John Howard: constantly setting things up to win the next election. Getting re-elected is the only thing politicians are ever worried about.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 14 July 2019 12:28:06 PM
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Belly,

If my answer is unrelated to the thread then so was your question.

I answered your question, in common courtesy.

How about you do the same.

As you don't like the answer giving you an example of churches that help the poor perhaps you'd be so kind as to list a few atheistic institutions that do as much?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 July 2019 3:01:16 PM
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Mr opinion maybe you are in part right but the fact remains this subject needs thought
Too the reality all faiths, some more than others, are failing to prosper
As time passes and faith becomes more about politics we may see the end of some
Mean while the now no longer Churches around here have more fast food purchasers than they had followers, for decades
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 July 2019 3:45:38 PM
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Belly'

"And ignoring the findings of the royal commission
And World wide findings
Too a reluctance to pay victims
For sure and certain some of the Catholic institutions have been seen as not safe for children"

and what has all that got to do with churches helping the poor?

You asked the question; don't you like the answers?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 July 2019 3:58:41 PM
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Dear Belly,

«Believe it, I watched the fall of religion as it started»

It was not the fall of religion - it was the fall of organised Christian churches.

You do not need an organisation to be religious. You do not even need organisations to be a Christian: Jesus Christ had no organisation, you can follow him directly, or make an effort to.

«My God would not have declared workers being paid more for their only product, time and effort, was worse than ever»

Ever? What about slavery? has it not been rampant and now nearly eliminated?

Please look at the broader scheme: God's universe does respond infallibly to good effort, but the reward is not necessarily financial and not necessarily immediate in this lifetime.

That said, workers can be no less greedy than their bosses: having less money does not necessarily mean that they wouldn't like to have money at least as much. Should they all get more? including those who would spend it unhealthily or to harm others? including those who would gamble it away? including those who put no real effort at work, including those who do their own thing during the time they are paid for to work, in effect a form of stealing? including those whose work is not really useful and necessary, doing nothing good for the world other than serving their boss's ego and pockets? including those whose work actually harms others?

Also consider an employer who used to treat his/her employees badly, or perhaps even a slave-master, who died and now has to spend their next lifetime(s) under similar conditions as their former employees/slaves, experiencing for themselves the pain that they caused to others: would you consider this unjust?

Nevertheless, God's good work can also be performed by people, including by His servant, Belly of the Union, who unexpectedly storms in to improve working conditions. Please consider it a privilege: you have probably been serving God no less than church-goers!

Jesus said: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 14 July 2019 6:02:34 PM
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Belly,

"Too the reality all faiths, some more than others, are failing to prosper

Funny that I did a bit of research on the net and got the opposite answer.

Where do you get your information, out of your prejudice box?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 July 2019 9:22:20 PM
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-14/how-the-catholic-church-ruled-with-despots-in-latin-america/11214044
It was never my intention that this thread put any God on trial
Never that one relidgion should be targeted and others praised
Ise Mise brought the good deeds of the Catholic Church in to the debate
I counter with the link, free to read site, read it then tell me SOME religion, as practiced by some followers are not truly in trouble
Please understand, I do, true Christians [the same may be said for most faiths] sets out rules that are the best plan to live by
BUT ignore at your peril some have hijacked God,claiming he/she is a supporter of one side of politics
Combined with the news in the link religion is shrinking as people ignore the very teachings of their faith
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 July 2019 5:57:20 AM
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To Belly.

I believe you when you ask about this topic of faith. "What do we do about it" kind of question without trying to harm those in each religion. At least that's what I get from this topic.

However, there are two lines of logic that I see that are battling each other out on this topic. I think taking a side on either can be deceptive because it feeds it's own argument instead of seeing the merit of the other one (or seeing other potential paths of reasoning).

The two lines of logic that I see are:

1) fairness to all religions. (Treating them all the same).
2) supporting one philosophy or another (whether it is one of the religions or a lack of religion philosophy). This logic aims to point out how one view is right and the others are not; or conversely to point out how the others are not right and leave it there.

I could be wrong, but by your comments it seems you're taking the first line of logic to treat all religions equally as if they are the same. In that light to support freedom of religion equally.

I want to warn you that both of the logical arguments have a weakness in either not seeking the truth about any perspective (because they are all the same anyways), or to not support freedom and liberty in the expression of all religions (because differentiating between them means supports some over the others).

It's just a thought and an observation on this debate over religion. Know the weakness of the over all argument.

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 15 July 2019 7:31:03 AM
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(Continued)

A second thought is a practical approach to the issue of religious freedom. Let everyone be able to explore and express any religion (and lack of religion), but at the same time, when a person or an organization breaks the law or causes harm, then don't sit idly by out of support for freedom. If the laws stand firm for everyone, then all religions are equal in the face of the law. Just make sure the laws don't create a way for businesses or government offices to silence a person believing and practicing their religion by writing employee contracts restricting them outside of work. (Or firing them because of what they say on Facebook or Twitter).
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 15 July 2019 7:32:13 AM
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" Jesus Christ had no organisation, you can follow him directly, or make an effort to."

He had a gang of 12, small but an organization just the same and at the Last Supper, He made sure that it would continue and grow.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 15 July 2019 9:26:13 AM
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Dear Belly,

«BUT ignore at your peril some have hijacked God,claiming he/she is a supporter of one side of politics»

Those who hijack God for the sake of politics are not religious, thus their actions are outside the scope of this discussion.

---

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«1) fairness to all religions. (Treating them all the same).»

Nice talk, but how, when the number of religions equals the number of people?!

What's the point in treating the same just a few large and loud organisations who claim to have a monopoly on religion, while ignoring everyone else's private religions?

«Let everyone be able to explore and express any religion (and lack of religion), but at the same time, when a person or an organization breaks the law or causes harm, then don't sit idly by out of support for freedom.»

Breaking the law is one thing, causing harm is another - so please do not bunch them together.
When there is an actual threat of harm, people normally and without dispute defend themselves (other than the very best who instead turn their other cheek, their own cheek of course, not others').

«If the laws stand firm for everyone, then all religions are equal in the face of the law.»

Now if you are going about making laws in general and "equal laws" in particular, then you cannot be fair:

The law for example says, "No sharp metal objects on flights": Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists and most others are not affected, but Sikhs are devastated.

Or the law says, "Everyone must attend court on the day they are called to witness": Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, atheists and most others are not religiously affected, but Jews are devastated if that day is the Sabbath or a Jewish holiday when they are not allowed to travel.

Etc, Etc, Etc.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 15 July 2019 10:02:16 AM
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yuyutsu mate you continue to find things in my words I never wanted
The thread is about warning not to take some protections away while increasing others
Tried avoiding my view no God ever existed
Just want to amplify growing concerns the bill is about Christianity, maybe at the expense of other faiths
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 July 2019 1:31:05 PM
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Dear Belly,

You would be privileged indeed if you had even a clue what Morrison plans for his "religious-freedom" bill. I could not find any information about content, they only talk about the politics around it.

To further obfuscate their intent, politicians mention all sorts of irrelevant issues such as "freedom of speech" or prohibiting discrimination on grounds of religion, both unnecessary and have very little to do with freedom of religion. It looks like this loud cry is going to end with a whimper, just like the minuscule reduction in the deeming rate for pensioners by only 0.25%.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 15 July 2019 2:30:01 PM
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yuyutsu yes I too share the view we may well be confronted by what Scomo puts in front of us
No doubt in my mind some want to protect one faith and too that some are determined to see that done
My thought that the thing needs care and balance remains
Too my view Christianity is in decline
Just maybe true reform can save it, separating it in America at least, from politics
And too in that country from massive cash grab maybe tax on it?
Still freedom to worship should remain a right always
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 6:56:24 AM
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Freedom to worship should remain a right as should freedom not to worship and no religion should be given special status.

How worship is carried out must always be subject to legal restraints by the State.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 8:39:36 AM
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To Yuyutsu.

Religions are not all the same. They are not all true either. Without religious freedom people can't search for the truth on their own. But once they find a kernel of truth, they can't follow it unless they step away from all the wrong paths. This is the dynamic I was trying to point out earlier.

In order for there to be freedom of religion then all religions need to be treated fairly and equally. This is good for people to explore their views and to be able to challenge what they thought. However, the downside is that by saying all of it is equal, it takes the responsibility out of the religions for what they do right, or what they do wrong. (Because they are all the same). It can also be an obstacle for someone who searches for the truth to take a stand, because they are standing against religious freedom when they say the issues facing any religion specifically. Even to say other religions are wrong. (Atheism for instance says this of all religions that believe in God in one way or another).

On the other hand. When a person finds the truth, (or at least thinks they have), then they would pursue it over the other religions, or philosophies. This is good also because it means a person can go forward on a right path instead of stuck in the mud saying "all ideas are equal" and not actually investigate it further to see if it's right or how it can help them. The downside is that in order to be discriminating one idea or one religion as better then the others, means a weakened stance of freedom of religion as a whole.

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 10:01:18 AM
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(Continued)

You mentioned though that certain practices can be hindered by the law. Jews forced to court on a Jewish holiday, or on a sabbath; and Sikh wanting to travel on a plane can't carry a knife they are suppose to ware for justice at all times.

Are they equally free if they are restricted by the law to do something they don't want to do? If it's the laws of the land and they affect everyone, then yes that is fair for everyone as well. That said there are things that can make this easier. A Jewish person can travel the day before to the city they are called as a witness, and as long as they travel in the city on the sabbath, it seems that travel restrictions are restricted to walking only. It's an obstacle, but there are practical solutions. Or they can communicate to the court by a video conference to be a witness, if that is an option.

For the Sikh carrying a knife on a plane, allowing a weapon on a plane is a dangerous rule to allow. If a Sikh can't part from it for a while to be stored in their luggage, then perhaps going on a plane is something they shouldn't do. (Since the knife worn is there for defending oneself or someone else, I'm sure having no weapons allowed on a plane would count as keeping the danger away for everyone else also).

Following the laws of the land should be an equalizer for everyone, unless the law is unjust or asks something that has no practical solution for it, they should be obeyed. That said, not every harm is identified by the laws. Some people can't defend themselves. If that happens don't stand idly by in the name of freedom of anything while watching idly a crime or another abuse.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 10:03:19 AM
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While reading a report about Donald Trump yesterday, in an American newspaper these figures came up
70 percent of evangelicals and 55 percent of Catholics now support Trump
Those figures are said to be lower than 2016
I charge American evangelicals with not being true Christians
In fact wonder how many Catholics are [at least in the Priesthood]
And further charge those miss using God, such as the above, with being the reason numbers of worshippers are falling
I agree totally, with the opinion above, every one must have the right to believe and practice what they want to
But again warn getting this bill wrong will increase the fall in numbers and could make things worse if not done right
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 12:26:13 PM
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We are a secular society so no religion should be favoured by the State as Christianity now is.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 1:42:00 PM
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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

«all religions need to be treated fairly and equally.»

Definitely fairly, though I do not quite understand what you mean by "equally", given that different religions have very different needs. Suppose you want to treat all people equally by giving them an equally nice cake: most will enjoy it, but those with diabetes could die.

"Freedom of speech", for example, may be important to Christians who need to spread the good news, but not for the Druze who keep their religion secret.

The main difficulty in attempting to treat all religions fairly, if not equally, is to be able to recognise and distinguish religious behaviour from other behaviours. It is too easy to cheat and pretend to be religious - God sees to the heart, but people normally do not.

While we seem to disagree on this point, my observation is that there are no wrong religions, but there are non-religions, there are pretenders as well as those who delude themselves, and at times it is pretty difficult to tell the difference.

Regarding Jews, any form of travel is forbidden on the Sabbath, other than walking or being carried/pushed by other people. Carrying any objects other than one's clothing (even keys) outside one's home is also forbidden (some cities are excepted, but not in Australia) and so is the use of electrical devices, including metal detectors, electronic keys, elevators, microphones or video equipment. Even cutting toilet paper (should the need arise in court) is forbidden, and since cooking is also forbidden and the food in city-hotels/restaurants is not kosher (and must also be paid for, which is also not allowed), this means that Jews would also have to go hungry, thus you can begin to understand the anguish laws can bring on religious Jews.

With Sikhs, however, there is a solution, a bit cumbersome but possible with goodwill: their kirpan could be encased in a hard metal box, so it would be locked by airport authorities on departure and unlocked on arrival. They would then carry the box on the plane without being able to open it.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 16 July 2019 4:26:47 PM
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Yuyutsu.

You asked what does it mean to treat all religions equally. What it means is that the laws and standards that govern the country are the same for everyone regardless of religion. To be fair to each religion would mean to not make laws that are aimed as a burden for some religions. The example I have for breaking both fair and equal laws are the laws in many Islamic countries. Where the rules are that if you aren't Muslim then you aren't protected from the law. Or worse in some countries not being Muslim is enough to be stripped of your rights and actively harmed (as opposed to just not being protected). In western countries Islamic law is beconing a political tool to create a set of laws specific for Muslims that is outside of the nation's set of laws.

To be fair to a Jewish man (or woman), he can make his appeal to the court about when he can be a witness and ask the court to make amends for him. If the court will not budge on the matter then the cost of his actions to make preparations to follow the court summonings. Or to disobey are in that individual's hands to handle himself. On the other hand though, are courts open on Saturdays, or is this a purely hypothetical stand point not a practical one?

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:19:52 AM
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(Continued)

To be fair to a Sikhish person is a much more difficult issue. The safety of a plane is the reason for the security measures to not allow a knife to be carried. It has nothing to do with the Sikh religion, nor was it made specifically for them. Yet it is a burden for them. There is no real answer for this because if you allow a Sikh tradition to carry a knife on board, then there comes the issue of someone claiming a religous belief in order to bring a weapon on board a plane. This should not be allowed. Not because of the Sikh that hold to the idea of justice and self defense, but because of the terrorist that are willing to look for any weakness to spread their violence and death. (I don't know enough about the people Following Sikh beliefs to judge their words as truthful or not, so I'll give them the benifit of the doubt that this tradition is true to their beliefs as it's outlined by online sources).

Regarding the Draze, they don't have to spread their religious beliefs to gain the benefits of freedom of speech. Yuyutsu, do you know anyone, from any religion or perspective that doesn't want freedom to speak freely (even if it isn't about speaking about their religion it's about being able to speak freely about what they deem important). Personally I know of no one who doesn't value their own rights to speak freely. Even if they don't value other people the same right, they still think that they should be allowed to talk freely.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:21:44 AM
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To Is Mise.

I thought Australia was a democratic society, not a secular one. The difference being that the laws would reflect the people who vote for them, not reflect a stance on religion that it means to be secular. What this means is that if a large enough population is Christian then that would also be reflected in the laws and traditions of the area. Having a separation of religion and state doesn't mean that that everything of a religious nature will be done away with. That would also include holidays and weekends. If the community favors those days off, then as a democracy, having those days off are a reflection of the people in it.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:37:24 AM
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It turned out ok, feared we would defend some faiths and insult others
OH it did inform us workers are evil
Ignoring the fact they for the most part are the faithful
But it remain the truth, how this bill is formed will be very important
If it divides it is a failure if it unites well done
No easy task
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 7:18:06 AM
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"Australian state formally came into being in 1901 the Constitution was at pains to make clear we were a secular democracy. Section 116 says:

"The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth."

In the process of drafting the Constitution churches argued for recognition of God and that all law ultimately derives from God, but these were rejected. A restrained reference to “Almighty God” was included in the preamble but not in the Constitution itself.

In light of this it is nothing more than mythology to suggest Australia was established as a Christian country. We have been intentionally secular ever since we began."
http://scottjhiggins.com/we-are-not-a-christian-country-never-have-been-never-will-be-never-want-to-be/

We are a secular nation and the PM allowing himself to be filmed having a sing-song at Hillsong goes against the intentions of the Constitution.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 10:33:30 AM
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We find common ground ise mise but in truth hill song repells me for other than that
Why please someone tell me why servants of Christ [not in fact just in name] so very often are pedophils
And too why so many cover for them
In this case a nine year old was told by the head of the CASH FOR CHRIST Church, you are to blame [for an act by his father]
IF Christianity can stop the crime, stop the cover up, only then can it return to a place in our lives and claim leadership
I doubt such a Church will even try
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:27:56 PM
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"Why please someone tell me why servants of Christ [not in fact just in name] so very often are pedophils"

Because the churches and other organizations have been infiltrated by homosexual paedophiles abetted/encouraged by the leaders in paedophilia, mainly aetheists.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Homosexuality_and_pedophilia
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 1:57:38 PM
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you CAN NOT be fairdinkum mate!
Yes pedophils are atracted to Churches boy scouts and cubs a host of places
But in the house of GOD any GOD?
Surely some one knew, someone knows?
Truth is one offending Priest said these words
*it is God's fault, he made us like this*
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 4:55:48 PM
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«You asked what does it mean to treat all religions equally. What it means is that the laws and standards that govern the country are the same for everyone regardless of religion.»

The legend goes that in the city of Sodom (the twin of Gomorrah), they had a "standard" bed: when a guest came to town, they would put him on the bed - if he was shorter than the bed then they pulled him to match its length and if he was longer then they cut his legs.

So one must decide, either fairness or equality: you cannot have both!

«To be fair to each religion would mean to not make laws that are aimed as a burden for some religions.»

Whether a truck deliberately runs over you or an elephant stomps over you unintentionally because you just happen to be in his path, the result for you is the same...

Avoiding laws that deliberately prohibit religious practices, is already established in the Australian constitution - I was hoping that Morrison wanted to take it a step further.

«To be fair to a Jewish man (or woman), he can make his appeal to the court about when he can be a witness and ask the court to make amends for him.»

Yes, and in most cases the court is compassionate, but they do not have to, it depends on the goodwill of the individual judge, perhaps on his/her mood.

«are courts open on Saturdays, or is this a purely hypothetical stand point not a practical one?»

Courts are not open on Saturdays other than for urgent matters such as seeing those who were just arrested. But they could be sitting late on Fridays, when in mid-winter, sunset is around 5pm (4:30 in Hobart). The Jewish holidays, however, are based on the lunar calendar and could occur on any day of the week. The rules applying to the major Jewish holidays are almost the same as the rules of the Sabbath.

[continued...]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 5:49:58 PM
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[...continued]

«To be fair to a Sikhish person is a much more difficult issue. The safety of a plane is the reason for the security measures to not allow a knife to be carried.»

Safety will not be compromised if the Sikh dagger is carried inside an unopenable hard metal case, which only security personnel could open on arrival.

It could incur a bit of an expense to provide this service in airports, but it would be straight-forward to implement for domestic flights. On international flights more sophistication is needed. I can think of several methods:

1) a cooperation agreement with foreign security agencies; or
2) the Sikh person has to purchase (or pay a bond on) the case and the lock is released automatically after some time (say 24 hours); or
3) the lock can be released by the Sikh him/herself, but only by obtaining a code on the internet, which will only be provided after the plane landed safely; or
4) the Sikh person has to purchase the case, then take it to a locksmith at the destination.

(technical notes: the case would also broadcast periodic signals to alert security if it was not taken on board the appropriate flight. For multi-legged international flights, cases can be placed inside larger cases)

An alternate approach is to provide Sikh people with a welded metal box that can never be opened, containing a Sikh dagger, other than their own which would go in the luggage. They would then pay a bond and receive a refund at their destination when they hand in the box.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 17 July 2019 5:50:01 PM
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YUyutsu,

I know many Sikhs and have flown into Amritsar a number of times and the passengers were mostly Sikhs.
The Sikhs that I know have no problems flying they pack their religious symbols in cargo luggage and that's that.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 18 July 2019 9:09:33 AM
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Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Sorry I missed addressing you: my last double-post was addressed to you.

«Yuyutsu, do you know anyone, from any religion or perspective that doesn't want freedom to speak freely (even if it isn't about speaking about their religion it's about being able to speak freely about what they deem important).»

Oh everyone wants the freedom to speak freely, that's for sure, but does it have any religious benefit? Otherwise, while you could support or oppose ordinary desires, it would be unrelated to this thread about "Freedom of Religion".

If we look deep enough, nobody actually obtains any real benefit from anything but their religion. The difficult question, however, is what exactly does one's religion consists of - and while we can point at general outlines, the details differ from one person to another, and even for the same person, from one time to another.

Since feeble-minded humans (prophets aside) have a hard time distinguishing between the religious and the mundane, even the profane, I suggested that every freedom ought to be allowed in order to give us all the benefit of the doubt in case our actions are religious, but not in order to equally support all actions whatsoever.

There is this book, "The Sparrow" (by Mary Doria Russell) where radio broadcast is received from outer space and a Jesuit space expedition is sent to the source planet to convert the aliens. To cut things short, while they believed that the radio-music had a spiritual meaning, they (the sole survivor) discovered the hard way that it was a song in glorification of anal rape. Now should the aliens still be allowed to broadcast such "music"? Yet how dare we as mere mortal humans, presume to know what others' (including non-human aliens') religion is, what path best leads them to God?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 18 July 2019 12:58:26 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

«The Sikhs that I know have no problems flying they pack their religious symbols in cargo luggage»

SOME Sikhs have no problems, others don't fly. http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/33884/are-there-any-flights-which-permits-a-sikh-to-carry-a-kirpan

Some Jews also fail to observe the Sabbath, some Muslims fail to fast on Ramadan: this ought to be taken up between them and God, not between them and secular authorities.

Kirpans need not be more than 6cm long, so some airlines now do allow small kirpans:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/06/sikhs_can_carry.html
http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/sikhs-can-now-wear-small-kirpans-on-flights-in-canada/story-SQEEHMK6IdpwP41C2Ic87N.html

There was also one case where an airline allowed a kirpan where the sheath was permanently welded and could not be opened.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 18 July 2019 1:07:57 PM
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On starting the thread I honestly feared it would bring out bigots, seems only a few
I refrain from naming them, or the worst one, but remind posters if based on nothing but our posts, this is a subject to be careful with
And we can hope, but truly not expect, it will be treated like that during the debate when it comes before parliament
In the end it seems Christianity has changed during my lifetime maybe all faiths have
It would be unthinkable in the 1940,s to see pedophils in the faith,cash more important than Christ [or so it seems]and one side of politics claiming God is on their side
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 18 July 2019 1:33:27 PM
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Belly,

Why don't you name the bigots?

Mates of yours are they?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 18 July 2019 2:40:52 PM
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ise mise sorry to inform you but you are not a mate
We could be friends but never mates
IF the cap fits know it was made for you
Now I have mates who vote Liberal, National, One Nation , Greens and others one close one that follows Manly in the NRL
But sorry to say not you
Closed minds repel me, anyone who damns workers [CHRISTIAN WORKERS?] for penalty rates is not my mate
But unknown [almost for sure] to you your opinions do more harm than good to your God
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 18 July 2019 4:26:27 PM
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Dear Belly,

Here's something to make you smile.
Talking about religion.

Many people will believe without question that there's an invisible
person in the sky who watches over them yet if you tell
them - "Don't touch that - it's wet paint," They'll
touch it to see if its still wet.

Funny that.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 18 July 2019 4:53:03 PM
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To Is Mise.

Democracy isn't about being secular or any religious bent. It's about the people. If there's a cross range of people with different ideologies, and beliefs, then that's going to show up in some way or another in society. If it's large enough a population, then it'll even show up in days off, or in policies and legislation. This is the way it is even if a religion it stems from is not officially endorsed. That's the only point I was trying to address in my last reply. I wasn't trying to suggest whether Australian government was Christian or secular. Only that democracy should always be a reflection of the people it is serving and representing. (Including religious people if they have a large enough population to have their say in the culture).
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 18 July 2019 9:46:28 PM
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Yes indeed Foxy, still feeling ise mises remoteless from the Christianity I once knew
And strongly believing those type of faith followers are the reason numbers are in decline
This world needs unity but is being fed division no bright future in that
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 July 2019 7:23:00 AM
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