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The Forum > General Discussion > Investing in the share market wise or not?

Investing in the share market wise or not?

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Interest rates are low,and going lower, housing prices are falling
The economy may be at the beginning of real trouble
But shares are doing well, in this country at least
As investors look for profit our share market is giving double figure rises
For how long
What happens if things go bad, and what alternatives do investors have
Posted by Belly, Monday, 24 June 2019 7:17:31 AM
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The share market is the bane of our generation's economic woes !
Posted by individual, Monday, 24 June 2019 8:54:58 AM
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Any investment is only good, if you have good timing. Think of the big names of the 60s. Some got out at the right time, some went down with the market when the boom subsided.

Shares are not a buy & forget investment as they once were, many of the blue chips of old have now gone. Today it is an investment only for the active investor, one who will follow the market many times a day. Yes you can get rich, but tour shirt can disappear very quickly.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 24 June 2019 9:50:36 AM
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Hasbeen right for the most part indy?
Knowing the right time is the question no one can answer
I have not much more than my funeral costs, and enough to transfer the house to a family member invested
In shares, and for now they are doing ok
Most super funds too have lots in them
A possible way around this [needs timing] is sell the shares now, at a high
Park the money and buy mid down turn
Park? say in bank? 0.75 percent, any profit may be lost as we may wait two years for it to come
So how would others invest right now
A PS is needed, my real wealth in my home, worth more than twice what I paid in 2002,it is also worth more than two combined super fund bought in, however while it too may drop in price I have no intention of selling it
Posted by Belly, Monday, 24 June 2019 1:56:46 PM
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there were several Hollywood fools who claimed they were moving to Canada when Trump was elected some even claiming the stockmarket would crash. I am hoping these overpaid fools lost all their money.
Posted by runner, Monday, 24 June 2019 1:59:44 PM
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Yes timing is everything. I had up to about 8 shares at one time.
When it became obvious in 2007 that peak oil had occurred in 2005 I
started to sell my shares except for Telstra. I thought we will all
still make phone calls etc. Well I was wrong anyway !

Then Linc energy was lighting coal seams up and getting gas up and
turning it into fuel. So I bought some of their shares.
Then they stopped further development and went into shale oil in the US.
Hmm reports I read about the shale oil did not make me feel secure so
I got out at a very nice profit. The current situation in the US
proved I was right to get out.

Shares are fine but do your homework and keep your ear to the ground.
Don't invest an amount that would anywhere near force you to sell your
house if you lost. NEVER EVER borrow to buy shares.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 24 June 2019 3:55:37 PM
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Bazz good advice that, never borrow to buy shares
Runner interesting that you use spite to comment on the coming crash, not unusual from you but interesting
We can bank on the down turn, it is almost here if not already under way
The very rich can make a killing by buying in at what they think, is the bottom
Others will take huge losses
But for now what to do
My house bought at the right time was an investment that paid off
But you can not eat a house
So how do you park money till the down turn is over, buying a house right now is not a safe investment
More suffer in a downturn than win
Posted by Belly, Monday, 24 June 2019 4:55:13 PM
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The ones who rig the share market are the ones who don't lose ! The best investment is the one you don't have to rely on to make a profit, property to live in ! Any more is the risk & the loss you deserve for being greedy !
Posted by individual, Monday, 24 June 2019 6:33:44 PM
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As usual, my story varies somewhat from the mainstream.
I am not, nor have I ever been, a gambler.
I have always lived by my philosophy of 'why on earth give your money to anyone, in the hope that they are going to make YOU rich.
By and large I have been right.
Daily we are hearing news reports of scumbags ripping millions out of people, people who cannot afford to lose not one penny let alone hundreds of thousands.
My only time I delved into the world of shares was when a good friend was floating a company, and told me what to buy and when to sell, and he was extremely clear on when to sell.
I have been watching the impending shitstorm that is slowly advancing and I have been, somewhat preparing, for the ensuing doom and gloom which is about to befall us.
About a year ago I needed to quell the boredom that had been slowly rising in me.
I decided to pull a $mill out of the bank and build a bunch of houses.
What led to this decision was;
1. Money in the bank meant I was only making those Jewish bastards wealthier, at my expense. (an example, a $175,000 loan=$900/mth approx
where-as interest on $3-400,000 is $1,000/mth approx)
No the Rothschilds can go and get f;d and with malice.
2. The govt slipped a bill through a few months ago making it legal to take money out of depositors accounts to stop the 'too big to fail banks' from failing.
So it was that I would rather invest in my own bit of benevolence and help the first home buyers.
Of course the banks thwart any young peoples dream by putting unrealistic demands like 20% deposit.
Now my houses are around the $300,000 mark, and even so, can you see anyone, especially a young couple coming up with $60,000?
NO, neither can I.
Let's see if this new govt election promise will bare fruit, whereby the govt will cover fifteen percent of the deposit, leaving the buyers to only find 5%
continue................
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 2:49:56 AM
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continuing,

More importantly the point I wish to make which is something anyone with a reasonable 'stash' of money in the bank, is a thing called;

BAIL-IN.

This is the name of the act which allows, (by law) the mongrel banks to access a depositors account and take your money out to prop up the bank, if it's books are looking sad.
So I thought well they can get stuffed and I can only hope that they do go tits-up.
No chance of that happening now.
Anyway, with house prices at affordable levels, the banks are again the road block.
I have mentioned it before, BAIL-IN, look it up, this is very bad for everyone not just those of us with some liquidity.
I am one of the, dare I say, lucky ones because at any stage I can switch to rentals but I can wait it out as I am not beholding to the bastards.
My life long dealings have, in the main, been in cash.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 3:02:29 AM
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In my very humble opinnion it's never a good idea to invest in share markets when you have more investing options such as real estate. You can't control share markets by any means however, for instance now that I mention real estate market, you can choose the right property, you can change the conditions, you can upgrade and renovate your property. So you are the one who is pulling the strings. Especially right now I find overseas property markets very favorable as it's offering the best prices and profit rate. For example you can buy an apartment in Barcelona https://tranio.com/spain/adt/1711260/ with two bedrooms in a new building for 485,000 € and either sell or keep it. Also it has other adventages such as favourable mortgage options and residence permit in the EU zone. So, I'd better invest in real estate instead of share markets.
Posted by Lou_09, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 3:25:47 AM
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Lou_09, I obviously agree, I just wrote the piece before yours telling all about the virtues of property over shares.
I think it's pretty much set in stone by now that shares are amongst the worse and last thing to invest in.
The reason they are still being pushed, with proviso's, is because so many people make so much money from your money, but when things go South they shrug their shoulders and blame it on market trends.
Anything where you have to rely on a third party or people, to make you money or increase your wealth, is a pipe dream.
In fact I have taken out a fair chunk of my money and built a group of houses.
Seven figures to be exact.
I too am looking for property overseas, but for social/personal reasons not investment.
I am perplexed at your choice of Barcelona, and for high fours.
Europe, say Italy, is a top place to look as the variety is huge in quality and quantity.
For a tenth of what you are quoting there are many properties to chose from.
I don't mind a fixer-upper or a block of land.
I just don't find Barcelona interesting enough, even though it would be more a base from where to go too or come from, when not touring other countries, which are all a stones throw from upper Italy.
I fully expect to right the expense off as I do not expect to sell it in a timely fashion if the time ever came, and at the kind of numbers I'm talking, it would almost be expected.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 3:56:58 AM
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Lou-09 the thread warns of a very real down turn, it mentions the loss some already face if investing in housing to profit
Too we know house prices are lower now than when some bought in
And during a crash may fall by 30 percent
Age must be considered if you propose investing during or at the start of a crash, will you live long enough to collect very long term gains, if they exist
We are talking about massive holdings, investment for profit holdings, and how that huge trillions of dollars can be invested, with some safety
Stocks and shares, right now, seem to be out pacing any other form of investment
Great fortunes have been won in stocks, and lost
Housing , started the last GFC and may well be the reason we fall in to another
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 8:08:03 AM
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Found Altrav's comments interesting.
The problem at the moment is the risk of high inflation rate if it all
goes tits up.
As I see it there is a major risk; the shale oil industry in the US is
in big trouble and appears to have peaked. For an industry that has not
made a profit to peak will ensure a quick collapse as the investor
money disappears.
Not a worry for us ? You better believe it.
It means that the US will be buying a lot more oil internationally.

Regarding Altrav's warning on "Bail In"; I have mentioned this here
previously as Wayne Swann signed us up in 2012 and the rules were
approved by Joe Hockey at the Brisbane G20 meet in 2013.
It powers the IMF's Financial Stability Board to seize the depositors
funds in a sound bank to pay the debts of a broke bank.
It was first used in December 2011 when the Government bank of Cyprus
got into trouble because of Greek Bonds that it had sold and they
could not pay them out. So the IMF FSB stepped in and seized
depositors finds in the private Cyprus Bank.
a side bar, The Russian Oligarchs had a lot of money in that bank so
they went into the Moscow Branch in the middle of the night and
withdrew their money. Next morning the IMF FSB found the cupboard
nearly bare.
Other events, the same occurred to an Italian bank and a Portuguese Bank.

A precaution you can take is to move money into a Credit Union.
The law does not affect credit unions. Caution, credit unions that
are connected to a bank are not exempt from bail in. So check.
I have done this just in case.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 12:38:00 PM
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Not with shares, my timing with real estate has been impeccable. 1 sailed back into Oz in 76 with a rather tired aging yacht, & not much money.

While running boats in the Whitsunday islands 1 bought a block on the mainland, before the area prices skyrocketed. Getting sick of the tourist industry I changed my interest to a waterfront somewhere, where I could keep my yacht & live. Bought a block on one of the Moreton Bay bay islands, then on another & another all for less than $10000 each, as 1 looked for the perfect spot. 1n 9 months prices had doubled, & tripled in not much more than a year. Built a cheap weekender & a jetty on one, which skyrocketed the value ridiculously.

Decided to become a cattle baron, in Wide bay. Discovering that breeding cattle in a drought was a recipe for bankruptcy, sold that even for a profit, & moved a house onto a block on the Burrum river. With the yacht moored to the jetty built this proved to be a gold mine, so 1 sold, & bought an old almost defunct citrus orchard on Beelbi Creek Toogoom, & rebuilt it's old jetty.

Head hunted to run a little group of companies on the Gold Coast, split the orchard into its 3 titles, & made more money.

My present 20 acre ex turf farm on the Albert river, was a long way from the office, but the kids had 7 horses at the time, so was necessary. 1t is now worth more than 5 times what paid for it 27 years ago.

More or less by accident, 1 have turned a few thousand into well over a million, all by real estate, while my work income fed us. 1t's been more mucking around than just buying a house in Sydney, but it's been a hell of a fun ride. 1'll stick with real estate.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 12:44:40 PM
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I forgot to mention, the depositors whose funds were taken were given
shares in the defaulting bank ! That was big of them !
A depositor in the Italian Bank, who had E150,000 taken walked up onto
the steps of the Bank and shot himself.
People to whom I have mentioned this have just not believed me.
Can't happen here !
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 12:46:27 PM
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Hasbeen wonder how many now say they should have followed your lead
I should have, four building blocks in 2006 now sell for over 100 thousand, my purchase price had I not backed out 4 thousand per block
Still we are talking about investing in or before a recession
How long it may last no one knows, just to recover to today's conditions may take a decade, even two
So what do investors invest in
Not property unless they are in it for the very long term, and can take short term loss, maybe long term loss
Gold? if everyone piles in what happens after the recovery, can gold rise forever, or even stabilise in bad times
Any new investments that actually works, may impact shares as people leave to try that new investment
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 1:05:35 PM
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residential Property is just as risky as the share market,
you see the share market everyday (on TV, radio newspapers) and it goes up and down, yet your property does the same thing.
Get a real estate agent to value your home once a week and see how much it fluctuates. Sell in winter and you may not get your asking price, sell in spring and you make more. Yet it is the same house

Many people forget the share market has returned an average of 9.2% p.a. over the last 50 years (that includes the GFC, recession we had to have, bad governments, new taxes etc)Residential property has returned an average of 8.1%
If you use dollar cost averaging you will make far more than any property investment.
Both investments are good, but shares are very liquid (sell within 3 days) you cant sell one room of your house if you need $10k, nor sell it quickly.

On top of that you also have franking credits. I have both property and share portfolios, I buy companies that people use everyday, ( for example people use phones everyday, banks everyday , supermarkets, power companies etc etc. I don't speculate on mining stocks) so even in a recession I still get a dividend.

A diversified portfolio is the way to go
Posted by kirby483, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 4:25:56 PM
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Bazz, so very excited to see another informed person who knows what is going on and what he's talking about.
I have been preaching about, BAIL-IN for years, to no avail.
When you find that a govt see's the need to enshrine something in law, and the fact that it was passed in such a nefarious way, as it was, was in any interpretation, an illegal act by the then govt.
They waited till the chamber was empty, baring a handful of very tired ministers, who were indifferent about the 'BAIL-IN' bill anyway and so it was passed un-opposed.
I too have been rebuked over my concerns about 'bail-in', when I have tried to bring this act of theft to the fore.
I know Aussies are lazy and can;t see passed their skinny latte or can of fosters or whatever game is on at that moment, but possibly the main reason they don't care is because they 'work to live', instead of 'live to work' so they're basically all broke, all the time, so why would you give a shite if the only people who would suffer are the responsible, mature ones who have lived, earned and saved wisely.
As opposed to the bulk of Aussies who have the lifestyle of pigs on heat.
Only interested in having fun, getting drunk and the rest is for all to see on the news and doco's, showing our crop of top wasters, male and female, unconscious, lying in their own vomit, with their dress up around their ears, waking up the next morning realising they had been screwed but not remembering anything about what happened and with who it happened with.
These are the adults of tomorrow.
These are the decision makers of tomorrow.
These are the voters of tomorrow.
These are the parents of tomorrow.
I won't go on, as the few intelligent, mature ones out there reading this, will already know the ramifications of this current batch of morons or this current and younger generation.
Remember, 'children should be seen, not heard'.
NOW, you can see why we're doomed.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 7:53:56 PM
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Some have missed the point'
Shares are currently doing very well, seemingly against the tide as spending stalls
House prices are in decline
And the thread proposes a very real slowdown is coming [good reference SMH this morning American financial experts]
So what do you invest in,to make a profit, or even maintain the value of your existing assets,
At a time we either are in decline or soon will be
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 6:14:22 AM
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Apart from making a few people very wealthy from just having money sitting there, what economic benefits are there to the Nation ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 7:23:39 AM
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NOW, you can see why we're doomed.
ALTRAV,
The Chinese & the Arabs are already vying for this country, they're just waiting for when our population is officially recognised as dumb !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 7:29:18 AM
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indy maybe the subject is too complex for you
Try to help, Capitalism, the only system that works, needs to be funded
Shares in part fund business giving them the cash to operate
Credit is a needed part of capitalism
Investors do not invest for fun
They rightly, want profit for the risk they take
Without shares less businesses
And as shares are what they say they are, sharing the profits, we, even if it is only via in our super funds, are investors
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 12:35:31 PM
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Belly,
I am aware how it works, I just happen to think its morally, socially & economically wrong !
It merely creates an artificial value not like an object that was created & is of enough value to the buyer who then pays the person who made it who in turn charges sufficiently to cover their costs. Where are the costs in the share market ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 2:34:40 PM
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Indy, too right.
The whole share market thing is another con by the thieves who created it and promote it.
I understand the concept as Belly has explained, but it still irks me that, like the banks a share holder only helps create a false assesment of the value of a company.
And unlike banks of old, whereby they had to hold Gold to the value of their paper money.
Today, it's all in cyber space, their is nothing tangible to use as a means of valuing something.
At least when the banks held Gold, you had something real to trade with and the only way you could lose was if someone 'stole' that Gold.
Today these bastards, banks or business, a company collapses and the thieves just shrug their shoulders and blame the money market or the economy.
I once heard, somewhere, about not investing in something to do with the banks, it was a play on words, but the punch line was, 'instead, invest IN the bank'.
I didn't get it at first, but then I realised he meant buy into the bank itself, buy the banks shares.
Now given that the govt's around the world, led by the Rothschilds, have shored up any risk of banks going 'tit's up' since the last GFC, they have secured the security, solidarity and safety of their banks with the passing of the 'BAIL-IN' legislation, which is being rolled out across the globe.
Thereby ensuring that banks will no longer be allowed to fail, because they will take depositors money to BAIL-OUT the banks, thereby calling it BAIL-IN.
Remember, 'DEPOSITORS MONEY'.
Ridiculous, impossible I hear you say.
OK, don't take my word for it, look it up yourselves.
So the joke is on us, because the safest place to put your money APPARENTLY? is the BANK?
Somebody please tell me that I am wrong and it's not so.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 2:59:59 PM
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Well the thread has that huge elephant in the room to content with
The threat is world wide not just Australian
We have wish to deny it, some even hate it, but world trade is our very back bone
It every now and again, gives us the flu or at least a heavy cold
This Time, as in the past, it maybe worse
We can not tell,but we can, in my view, say indys and others, think standing on a tree limb and cutting it , and ourselves off is a good plan
Without world trade,the ability to sell our minerals, wool cattle sheep,food and grain, we would be that Banana Republic we once spoke about
Shares, investing in ball its forms are part of both capitalism and world trade
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 4:42:54 PM
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Bitcoins up 40% over the last 7 days
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 27 June 2019 1:05:19 AM
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AC, sorry but I put bit coins in the same category as 'too good to be true', and I've tagged it as a Ponzi.
I know, I've got nothing to back that up with.
All I know is, it just does not sit well with me.
I've always had the belief that if someone is gaining, then someone must be losing.
It is inconceivable to me that you can make money so quickly/easily without there being a cost somewhere.
I am too much of a pragmatist to allow myself to be taken in by greed and backed by the security of not ever having gambled, I am waiting for the piper on the bit coin thing.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 27 June 2019 4:23:25 AM
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I too place no faith in the latest version of shell money bitcoin and its like
But many do, in fact some will invest in it, to try to defeat the coming economic troubles
The down turn if it comes/is here is in part a matter of lost faith
My loss will not include bitcoin, it rises and falls more than the sea
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 27 June 2019 7:00:26 AM
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Just because a handful of people become rich via some scheme does not warrant to rely on. Many people become rich from Lottery wins but no-one seems to rely on lotteries !
If anything I have been an advocate for State-run lotteries for unemployed & low wage earners.
This would give many a good break in life AND it would sort the problem of unemployment & Centrelink hassles. Investors only have to put up the cost of the ticket instead of risk losing all.
People on say, over $75,000/year should be ineligible to purchase tickets as should winners to buy tickets again.
Imagine what one or two winners a week would do to the local economy ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 27 June 2019 9:10:09 AM
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Hey Belly and ALTRAV,

Let me pose a hypothetical question:

'How much do you think is a steaming pile of turd is worth?'

And the answer:

'Whatever someone else is willing to pay for it'.

The concept I'm trying to allude to is that is doesn't matter if you think something ain't worth nothing.
It's what everyone else thinks it's worth that really matters.

"I've always had the belief that if someone is gaining, then someone must be losing."

Well someone somewhere probably is.
For example money could be moved from other less performing markets than cryptocurrency.

In general though, like shares everyone on board gets the win.
If a company makes good decisions they are revalued and their market cap increases.
The win comes from the revaluation, not necessarily other peoples losses.
And at the end of the day, a bull market is a bull market.
Like anything, it's about managing risk v's reward.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2018/01/04/did-this-1988-economist-magazine-predict-a-bitcoin-explosion-in-2018/
http://www.libertynation.com/on-the-cusp-of-the-one-world-currency/
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 27 June 2019 9:38:35 AM
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AC, glad you brought this up.
I have this kind of discussion every now and then.
The one about what something is worth.
And I vehemently disagree with your analogy.
There-in rests one of the biggest fallacies in the world of relative values today.
Let ME pose a non-hypothetical question. ie;actual and current practices
Case:1. I buy something direct from the manufacturer, I pay $X for it.
Case:2. I buy same thing from the distributor, I pay $Y, more than $X.
Case:3. I buy same thing from the retailer, I pay $Z, more than $Y.
Each time the price increases because each entity MUST make a profit.
Another 'real', and non-hypothetical case.
Case:1. I buy a car from the auction, I pay $X for it.
Case:2. I buy the same car privately and pay $Y for it.
Case:3. I buy the same car from a dealer and pay $Z for it.
Again the price increases each time and is therefore different for the same article.
So the question presents, which is the right price for the item?
The correct answer is, the cheapest one.
I do not agree, in fact I reject the ridiculous idea or concept of, 'whatever someone is willing to pay for it'.
Rubbish!
Everything has a value, so that statement holds no cred because there are too many factors affecting the sale of an item.
The biggest one is the public's attitude that they have to 'steal' everything, and will only pay retail if forced to.
So you see every day prices are changing, but the item and therefore the value of same does not change.
So it is that things have a value.
What some slack jaw yokel is prepared to pay for it is an intangible and subjective view and attitude allowed to permeate through the ages and society.
So if people would stop saying, 'it's worth what someone will pay for it', and start saying 'it's worth what it is worth, and just because someone wants to steal it, does not suddenly make that item worth any less than it's worth'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 27 June 2019 11:30:12 AM
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AC how did you work out I think any differently?
We are talking about investing when a storm comes to financial markets
Yes the super rich will, if they wish to, make a killing, out of others loss
But the subject is about safe harbors for current investors
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 27 June 2019 12:57:50 PM
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Altrav the day of your thinking is coming with the penetration of internet marketing, however it is not here yet.

1f someone in Gympie or Jandowae wanted to buy a water saving device, first he had to know they existed, then he had to know just what they were. Then of course to buy it from us, he had to know we existed, what we made & where to find us.

The time he saved by walking into his local hardware store, & asking to see what products existed to do his job, was worth the extra cost of the retailers margin.

The retailer deserved his margin for first doing the research, then buying the product, absorbing the cost of holding the stock, & then making the knowledge & product available to everyone interested.

Retailers are still good value, out in the sticks. Firstly you can see the product & evaluate it. Secondly it is much easier to deal with a physical retailer, than with some EBay or internet identity if a problem arises with the product.

Thus things can often be worth more to me, when they are in my locality, rather than in Hong Kong or Melbourne.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 27 June 2019 2:02:31 PM
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This once silly youth bought the Socialism thing hook line and sinker
Look at it wreckage in any place it ever existed
Start with Venezuela
Reward for effort has to be part of any workable economy
Slothfulness was the number one product of socialism
Yes some pure filth exists in an economy
But the one we have,apart from constant trimming and improvement is for the present the best we can get
Dictatorship would change it nothing else
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 27 June 2019 5:21:24 PM
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Hassy, I get your drift.
We are on two different paths.
No matter what the circumstances surrounding the intangible aspects of an item or product, it has a value, ie; it's worth.
This can only change slowly over time due to such factors as age, the introduction of a new model rendering the old one obsolete, and so on.
An item does not change 'value' or 'worth' due to the foibles and averace or greed of individuals.
If that were the case, someone selling the same item day after day were to sell each item for, 'what someone was prepared to pay for it', is lunacy and in fact too ridiculous to even contemplate, under any circumstance.
No we have allowed ourselves to be pushed around by those with money so that we are forced to negotiate a price on which to sell the item, on their terms.
So to clarify, everything has a value or worth, which is in no way related to the price it was sold for.
So, something is definitely NOT worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.
It is worth what it is worth and if the buyer doesn't like it he can get stuffed and move on to find another fool like himself who is prepared to sell himself and his business to the lowest bidder.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 27 June 2019 7:11:05 PM
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Another important aspect is value vs necessity ! The authorities for example are always harping on about safety yet, because it is necessary they push up the cost to a point where safety becomes unaffordable for many !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 27 June 2019 9:22:02 PM
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Hey ALTRAV,
I think maybe we're both right;
- but you put so much effort into convincing me I was wrong on this one that I'm not sure I really want to argue the point.

I thought about your argument, and then I thought about applying it to say a 'Big Mac' or a 'can of coke'.

What are they really worth?

Yesterday Big Mac's were $1 usually about $7.
How much does it cost to make - maybe 50 cents?

If people are willing to pay $7 for one, then obviously those people think it's worth the $7 otherwise they wouldn't buy it right?

If people are ready and willing to pay $7 does that mean it's worth $7
Or is it still only worth 50 cents?

Then there's they buyer and demand issue.
What if you were on the edge of starvation in the middle of nowhere, hadn't eaten in a week and you came upon a Macca's but the Big Mac's were $50 each?

Would you pay the $50?
Would it be worth $50?

Hey Belly
"This once silly youth bought the Socialism thing hook line and sinker"
Stop being so hard on yourself mate, I did plenty of dumb things in my youth;
And if I could go back, I'd possibly go and do dumb things all over again.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 28 June 2019 1:58:37 AM
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AC, love your challenge.
Let's see.
OK, the Big Mac scenario from my way of thinking is; if the Big Mac cost 50c, then I contend it must follow that it is worth 50c.
The fact that someone will pay $7.00 for it is purely free market choice and is a personal issue within each persons perception and what each feels they can afford.
If, using your example, a wealthy man is starving, he would not hesitate to pay $50 for the same Big Mac that cost 50c to make.
Having the money, he can afford to pay $50, but it does not, in any way have any bearing on the value of that same Big Mac.
If I did not have the money, I could not afford it, so naturally I would have to forgo buying it.
As for supply and demand, that also has no bearing on it's 'value'.
The value of an item does not change, it's the greed of the vendor that is the variable.
I've argued previously that, I care not for the well being of the business, because the reason for a business in the first place, is to offer a service, irrespective of whether it's goods or services.
Now for offering that goods or service you get paid.
If you charge more than others for the same/similar G and S, then there MUST be an offset which benefits the consumer.
For example one shop charges $100/hr for something.
Another charges $150/hr for the same thing.
The excuse is usually because they bought special equipment that has to be paid for by the extra charge.
The real reason is they turn over more jobs and therefore make more money, in which case the same job should cost me less because of the new equipment, not more.
The value of the G and S doesn't change, only the price.
So, the value of something is it's original cost.
The price is an arbitrary figure set/based on what industry thinks is the most they can 'screw' out of the public, not 'what someone will pay'.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 28 June 2019 4:03:17 AM
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http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/world-s-biggest-hedge-fund-founder-believes-defining-moment-looms-20190627-p521ux.html
AC very true, in fact we become very different people as our life progresses
Think the link is worth a look
In fact my view is doom and gloom about the future
China, and America, are unlikely to patch this up, both want most of the cake
That includes military confrontation, even war
I can not see any war being conventual, if loss seems a fact Nuclear weapons will be used
Posted by Belly, Friday, 28 June 2019 7:08:28 AM
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Of course equipment costs must be recovered, eventually, not overnight ! Most of those costs are already covered by commercial welfare (negative gearing) so, equipment costs should not really have a major influence on the final selling price.
We're paying way too much for the impatience on profit. Some people who obviously earn too much have no qualms to fork out $7 for a $1 burger. I wonder how they'd react if they were to earn what THEY're worth ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 28 June 2019 7:37:46 AM
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Indy, now your talking.
You've hit the nail on the head.
Now this is something I have been critical about for years ie; we are not getting value for money here in Australia.
The costs, whether hourly rates or fixed prices are way beyond what they should be.
We are being continually gouged.
One example, I called a garage door service man to do just that 'service one of my garage doors.
He turned up, with his son, and while he walked around talking and looking over my cars, his son proceeded to spray the overhead horizontal door assist spring with something, from the ground, 3.5m above the ground.
Now read on to A-A below.

B-B We have allowed the issue of pay and and charge to get out of hand.
Unions being the biggest culprits, having driven pays beyond where they should be.
People don't realise that by increasing wages, they are increasing their cost of living, the 'real' cost of living, not the BS one the govt uses to report on the economy.
The overarching and painful result is that not only can we not afford our own goods and services, but our exports are hit hard.
This is confirmed by the huge number of companies that have shut down and or moved overseas.
Our car manufacturing is only one but major example.

A-A The whole thing took approx 20mins, spent most of that time to and from their truck.
I was charged $220.00.
The stories I can tell, unfortunately 350 words is nowhere near enough and most people would not care because they believe, like myself, there is nothing we can do about it other than avoid these thieves and keep looking for people who are honest and genuine.
By doing so, maybe, just maybe these crooks will go broke and crawl back under the rock from whence they came.
Now go back to B-B

Sorry I had a computer moment and when it came back up it's mixed up the before and after text somehow.
Follow the A-A and B-B for it to flow/make sense.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 28 June 2019 9:21:50 AM
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Nothing is ever perfect, and we are not talking about changing the system
Would willingly talk of changes to Capitalism, we may even get it after the crash
But how long how many hurt, and how do we recover this time, if world trade fractures
Not even close to being sure of any of that
But pain is coming, a lot to investors who refuse to see it coming
Some to very big firms who invested at the wrong time
We are told it is not possible for another great depression, but do not bank on it
Posted by Belly, Friday, 28 June 2019 12:02:29 PM
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Just listened to the BBC & they were talking about the success of the Chinese company Huawei.
Apparently, one of the main reasons for this success was that company policy rejected investors who merely wanted quick profit !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 29 June 2019 6:02:32 PM
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Indy, how the hell do they identify or know if someone was going to make a quick profit.
Unless someone can give me some examples, even one will do, I will treat this latest announcement out, as just another piece of Chinese govt led BS, which is atypical of China.
My dealings with them, has always been over-rating the numbers, exaggerating.
Years ago I discussed the low quality of their products, predominantly manufactured goods. I was told through a go-between or interpreter, that it was not China who made low quality goods but the Western buyers who insisted on the cheapest price.
You make your own mind up as to the correct answer.
Then there was the yearly reporting of the grain quotas by farmers.
Every year at the same time they had to report their expected yield from their crops for that year.
Every year the reported tonnage rose, until the central govt intervened and the numbers came back to reality.
The farmers were scarred because Beijing had certain expectations and if you did not deliver at or higher than the previous year there were consequences.
I'm not saying that mentality still applies, but I am saying that the well entrenched habit of exaggeration is alive and well.
So I would clearly question Huawei's clam.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 29 June 2019 8:03:18 PM
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Indy not sure that company can continue to be profitable
We and the USA hold concerns it wants to spy on us and it has been hogtied in both countries
No more likely to invest in them than cripo currency
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 30 June 2019 6:20:41 AM
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ALTRAV & Belly,
I think the Chinese are working along the the same tactics as the old rich families of Europe. Slowly, slowly catchy monkey !
Their greatest weapon is patience whereas patience is our Achilles heel.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 30 June 2019 8:06:30 AM
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how the hell do they identify or know if someone was going to make a quick profit.

ALTRAV,
I'd imagine they have investment periods which are long enough to put off the quick buck crowd.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 30 June 2019 8:15:10 AM
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In the end indy I agree China wants to rule either by trade or war
I am on record saying this is Trump's last year, right now you would not bet on it
But I think he is in campaign mode, and not doing a bad job of it
However, if and it is possible, he backed himself in to a trade war, he will bring on the financial crash I think is coming
My investment will be gone overnight, but my garden will feed me and a couple of familys so maybe that investment is worthwhile
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 30 June 2019 11:36:51 AM
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China has reached yet another peak in its history & the present levelling is heading towards a down curve whereas those with brains in the West are already gearing up for the next climb to another peak. Democracy/Socialism won't even get a look at the door !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 30 June 2019 11:56:28 AM
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Indy it is my view, right now the world stands on the brink, we all over the place, seem to want to fight not fix problems
As hard as you may find it I can not escape my fear this organised chaos is planned
That we are being given enough rope to hang ourselves then the real power will take over
World dictatorship? maybe, but not a leftist one
After this financial crisis, we may see a better way offered, but it will be only words
Remember the very old saying, when dictatorship comes some will call it freedom [until it is too late]
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 30 June 2019 3:19:18 PM
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when dictatorship comes some will call it freedom [until it is too late
Belly,
If it's a benign Dictator then all will be good. If the Dictator is bad he/she won't last very long.
This insidious trap we call Democracy is exactly not the equality that it supposedly stands for.
If we have to constantly bow to minority groups as is presently the case then I'd much prefer to go all the way to a real minority i.e. one benign Dictator.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 30 June 2019 5:53:14 PM
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Maybe indy but how do you get rid of the very bad one?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 30 June 2019 6:07:00 PM
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how do you get rid of the very bad one?
Belly,
Should we ever get to that stage in our life time I'd imagine there'll be a common mentality that won't tolerate any misdeeds that jeopardise society's stability !
What no-one seems to accept in this day & age is that, people need to change before they accept change for the good of all ! But, times are changing & my guess is peoples' mentality will too. I suppose one of the first issues will be to return asylum seekers & provide them with the means to rebuild their country rather than invade others & ruin them in the process.
Foreign aid must exclude money, commodities & tools only ! The majority of these troubled nations have literally Gold mines for tourism. It is up to those who have to make those who need, see the merit of stability that can only come from peaceful interaction.
Many African & South American refugees are simply tempted by the excesses of Sport & Show Business. They need to be shown the reality of everyday people doing everyday work.
That could be the first step for them to stop pursuing unrealistic dreams about what life is like in the West. The Movie industry should react accordingly !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 30 June 2019 6:52:22 PM
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-01/the-economy-is-weak-and-heading-down-economic-review/11261704
If the thread is going to continue the link at least shows why my concerns started it
Indvidual your post highlights my other concern, we humans control very little
And have no chance of stopping, or removing, a dictator once they take control
Look at Venezuela, the African nations at internal war, over what truly dreadful, person will rule next
Then the middle east from Saudi Arabia to Iran ruled by nothing less than murderers, and dictators
Posted by Belly, Monday, 1 July 2019 6:09:10 AM
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Indy, I concur on the idea of sending 'real' aid, or help or assistance for want of more direct words.
I have spoken previously about the man and the fish story so I prefer that scenario to just sending financial aid (money).
Even the most compassionate and optimistic amongst us has at some time considered the possibility that sending money as aid has only been siphoned off into the pockets of the rulers or those in charge thereby rendering the whole scheme pointless, and as we can see does not change the lives of those it was intended for.
Now sending people to instruct and teach/show them what to do and how to become self sufficient, is in fact the only way to really help.
Corruption abounds in the upper levels of humanity, and more so in govt or politics.
Even when someone (a philanthropist) decides to help a particular group or country, he is usually forced to redirect his aid or funds through corrupt leaders or govts.
Unfortunately change is not possible using old or domestic measures.
Others have criticised me for suggesting a more mercenary approach, such as assassinating these people, and keep doing so until they learn that their kind will not be tolerated, and they just give up for fear of losing their lives.
I know it sounds a little far fetched, but we are not dealing with 'normal' people with 'normal' social standing.
These people are ruthless, better described as animals, with a total dis-regard for humanity or life itself.
So they need to be dealt with at their level, on the ground and in the gutter, quickly and decisively.
Only this way will it be cleaned up quickly and send a message to future aspirants making them think twice before they step up and attempt to take control.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 1 July 2019 8:20:54 AM
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ALTRAV,
My motto is "Treat others as you see them treat others"'. And, yes I totally am on your side re weeding out the vermin !
Posted by individual, Monday, 1 July 2019 8:38:38 AM
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http://ravenswoodwildlifesanctuary.simplesite.com

When Bureaucractic Greed invests !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 3 July 2019 10:04:01 AM
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indy my garden has developed in to jungle like and that is what I set out to do
Birds visit others nest but sadly the Indian Minor is eating eggs killing the young and just a pest
You may say my investment in my garden is paying off quite well
Many arrive and fill free, bags with lemons oranges and mandarins
Had to kill four plum trees flying foxes and tank water do not go together
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 3 July 2019 12:19:59 PM
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Belly,
Well, looks like our mad mates the Greens prefer a new suburb to a wildlife sanctuary going by their silence on the issue !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 4 July 2019 7:35:00 AM
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