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The Forum > General Discussion > We do NOT need the senate

We do NOT need the senate

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http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/scott-morrison-s-158-billion-tax-cuts-in-limbo-as-pauline-hanson-says-no-20190610-p51w3c.html
One nation, won one Senate seat
The man who won is not regarded by many as an intellectual giant, to say the least
Already holding one [Hanson] they have two seats
Yet they can stall the mandate voters gave Morrison
Labor if they truly want to rebuild, should pass the tax laws, all of them, and let Morrison take what comes after, he has a mandate
Two seats? in the chook pen? not a mandate surely
Posted by Belly, Monday, 10 June 2019 11:43:58 AM
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This morning in all news papers
Center alliance wants to hold up the government's tax bills
Make no mistake, I remain Labor to death
But [just as it would have been had we won]
am confronted by any Senate group that size forcing its views on the majority
Yes! it is my view [even if we do not agree] Labor should pass those bills, leaving the minorities with no power at all
In fact in my view this country would be far better off if both majors combined whenever possible, to marginalise them
Too that the next election should be of both houses in a double dissolution in the nations best interests
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 7:41:56 AM
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The Senate forever,
Hurrah! Boys Hurrah!
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 9:52:48 AM
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Dear Belly,

With only two seats in the Senate can the
One Nation party really be such a problem?

I have always believed that the checks and
balances that the Senate provides is necessary
to ensure that power is not
abused. We need a check on the power of the
government. That's not to say that the Senate
could not do with some reforming.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:29:58 AM
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We most certainly DO NEED the senate, given the self-serving, out of touch bastards in the major parties. Three cheers for One Nation's intention to oppose the income tax cuts, when the government should be cutting expenditure on everything but infrastructure and defence; as well as slashing immigration now that the state of our economy has revealed the LIE that immigration boosts growth. Only two parties can form government, and they are both too arrogant and out of touch with the people they no longer think they have to serve to be given a free go.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:43:26 AM
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Belly,

As a Queenslander, you should be aware of what can happen with only one house of parliament, and no house of review - in one word:

Bjelke.
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:49:43 AM
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Joe,
Belly should agree with you but won't because he would then have to agree that Beattie and Bligh (both Labor Premiers) ran up the now perilous state of qld finances and the current state budget is borrowing more. Labor could not run a chook raffle without losing money.
Posted by HenryL, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 11:20:25 AM
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Some weird things take place here, let me ask, am I free to have an opinion that is different than this sites rednecks
Labor lost the election[ yes it may profit if things go bad because this government gets all its tax bills passed]
But we have a duty to obey the voters mandat/wishes
Labor and Liberal, most assuredly the greens, have used others to block legislation in the chook pen
It was wrong
No country can overlook one nations policies are at best disliked by most
Foxy my answer can be found there, *had Labor won* my view remains the same, elected government has every right to pass the bills it won office with
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 12:50:55 PM
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The arrogant brutality of these standover parties is evident in today's news that Labor's Albanese is moving to kick a union man and party member out of the party because he assumed he had the right to exercise free speech and criticised the sainted Rosy Batty.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 12:54:03 PM
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ttbn,

Reference?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 1:52:45 PM
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Suppose indeed that the majority of Australian citizens oppose the proposed tax cuts, then this is how it should be!

If indeed the Senate rejects the tax cuts then it likely means that the majority of people, including those who voted for Labor and those who voted for certain smaller parties, oppose those cuts.

Far from perfect, still the Senate reflects the will of the people significantly more than the lower house that is based on the most unfair and draconic electoral system, designed to ensure that ordinary people will never be heard. If anything, then it is the lower house which must be abolished!

Then of course, nothing prevents the two dinosaurs from joining hands and voting together in the Senate... except that this would expose their true face and the fact that they never truly were separate parties, but just two flanks of the same ruling party, that just like the Chinese Communist party, enjoys an electoral system that ensures their eternal control over the good people of this continent and surrounding islands.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 2:13:57 PM
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Dear Belly,

Your concerns would have been more legitimate had
the election produced different results. Had
the government been a minority government and
if they had to rely on minorities to pass legislation.

This is currently not the case. They are a majority
government. Of course that does not mean that everyone
in the Senate will agree with them.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 2:23:51 PM
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Is Mise,

Any news online.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 2:57:45 PM
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ttbn,

Thanks, I found it.

Interesting.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 3:58:32 PM
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Foxy sorry but you miss the point
Labor can not stop the tax cuts
Unless it recruits one nation or others to help
Yuyutsu, you too miss the point, voters have spoken the rejected Labor
others are too silly to answer
By failing to pass the tax is Labor right?
If voters want it?
The senate, years ago, Labor in power, saw the greens [forever remembered] stop Labors action on carbon reduction
States house the Senate is said to be, and a house of review, not policy making
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 4:26:01 PM
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Dear Belly,

Whatever the Senate is SAID to be (i.e. "States house"), there is the reality of what it actually does.

The lower house as it is currently structured, is completely undemocratic, thus ordinary Australians have no say about policy-making and the laws that affect their lives. The little saving grace ordinary people have (even if unintended), is through the Senate where we still have a small chance of stopping the very worst of laws and policies that we oppose.

- And you want to take even this away from us, our poor-man's lamb?

"
1. And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2. The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3. But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4. And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
"

[2 Samuel, 12:1-4]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 5:22:46 PM
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One Nation is only a problem in Leftists' minds, normal caring people see ON as a whiff of common sense !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 6:18:15 PM
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Most people regard ON as a whiff, but it usually lacks common sense.
Despite this, small parties and independents are good for democracy, as it means the politicians have to justify their legislation rather than just relying on the numbers to wave it through.
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 6:43:24 PM
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Dear Aidan,

Well put.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 11 June 2019 6:47:14 PM
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I maintain my view, think we all should consider why we think as we do
SMH this morning, one of three elected WA upper house one nation has, yet again, gone from the party to sit as an independent
About three in federal parliament, and more than six nation wide
IF one nation and Labor combine so soon after the election, to stall a mandate, who is worse
I think the fact an unstable team like the ARA linked Circus one nation is, has no mandate
Two votes should never have the power to act so badly
Labor? it should pass the bills, show voters they get what they voted for
Later, new legislation will come, not supported by voters,stop that if you wish, but respect the mandate
REMEMBER had Labor won, it would be confronted by a senate able if not willing, to stall its mandate
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 8:19:26 AM
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Dear Belly,

The state's impositions on the lives of ordinary people are too serious and painful to be overridden by the spirit of rivalry and competition between political parties. Should the parties wish to continue fighting each other, then let them do so on the sports-field or in some multi-dimensional online virtual reality games and the like, but not over the backs of ordinary Australians.

You seem to value the in-fighting game of the two major parties above the ability of ordinary Australians to control their lives and try to relieve their sufferings.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 1:08:55 PM
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I have to agree that Pauline can't run a party. She is probably too trusting & those who only want to use her to get a seat for themselves, & apply for membership.

However we all owe her a huge debt of gratitude. It was her election at the hands of a bumbling Howard, & then the constant rabid attacks on her by the radical ratbag side of the left & Greens that got her & her policies well known.

She forced a large change for the better in the policies of both the Libs & Labor. Without her awakening of the mainstream, we would still be towing boat people into Darwin.

Thanks Pauline.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 1:17:22 PM
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Belly.

"I think the fact an unstable team like the ARA linked Circus one nation is, has no mandate"

What has One Nation got to do with the Australian Regular Army?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 5:01:29 PM
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Can we leave our biases out for just a few lines?
Had Labor won, we clearly did not
But if in government would those who do not agree with me think it was ok to stop negative gearing and franking credits passing
Even if Labor had a mandate
Now Foxy spoke of only two, one nation senators
However in truth if one one or ten crossbenchers took control, by dealing with Labor or Liberals
Would the 80 percent who did not vote for minorities [may well be far more]be right to be offended by rule of blackmail
Or is it in truth just opposition for the sake of it
Good government, not constant dog fighting, starts with good actions Labor must isolate the chook pen and pass these bills
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 5:06:45 PM
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Dear Belly,

Not with you on this one at all mate. Without the Senate Abbott would have brought in his draconian class warfare rubbish.

Stripping away bulk billing for instance with 'just a small co-payment'.

I think the reason a whole bunch of Australians decide to vote for someone else in the Senate compared to who they vote for in the House of Reps is that they want it to keep the bastards honest.

I love the fact that someone like Lambie got in. Don't like all her politics but she is someone who calls things out for what they are rather than voting along party lines. If the place had another 10 of her and another 10 of Andrew Wilkie in the lower house we would be far better off in my opinion.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 6:13:43 PM
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I take offense Belly,
"In fact in my view this country would be far better off if both majors combined whenever possible, to marginalise them"

You want to marginalise them?
That means you wish to marginalise me.
That you wish to deny me MY democracy because YOUR democracy isn't working for you.

That you wish to remove those things because you party's shite and didn't win?
Why don't you and your stupid backwards regressive party come up with some policies that majority of citizens will support instead of pedaling this fantasy crap about moving the centre to the lefts point of view and other airy-fairy shite...

The reason the governments won't change their policies is because its a global agenda to force the people to change;
- Instead of the people forcing the politicians and their policies to change -

You can shove your globalist stitch-up thank you very much.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 13 June 2019 4:31:33 AM
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Steel/Armchair, with honest respect for you both, honestly
I see both points,but too remind SR Howard was the last to hold both houses
He misused it, workchoices took the stick to his own *blue collar workers*
He lost the next election and his seat
Arm chair, ok see your point but what of the view of something over 80 percent who did not vote for the minories
Let us be honest,Labor got more primaries than LNP But, lost the election
Should they, assisted by the few, block the very policy that got the LNP elected
WHY?
I would NEVER have accepted the LNP blocking an ALP governments bills and that remains the issue, should the featherless chickens overrule the voters
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 13 June 2019 7:28:48 AM
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Belly would do well in China where there is just the Communist party that can do as it pleases; because that's what he wants here. The two parties should unite to "marginalise" smaller parties and independents? People like Belly don't deserve to live in a democracy.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 13 June 2019 9:44:24 AM
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Belly,

What has the ARA got to do with One Nation?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 13 June 2019 10:39:22 AM
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We need the Senate to counter the removal of common sense by Labor !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 13 June 2019 11:41:36 AM
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Seeing that Jim Molan received 135,000 below the line votes, the NSW Liberal party really needs to do something about the factions who put him last.

The Senate has not done its proper job as a state's house for a long time, so the wisest thing to do, in my view, is to not necessarily vote for the party you vote for in the lower house, and vote 12 below the line. It doesn't take much effort. As things are, the main party senators just rubber stamp whatever their lower house mates decide.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 13 June 2019 12:24:17 PM
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ise miserable please keep up with current affairs
ttbn not sure you are quite right
We can live without a chook pen
Majority rules thankfully
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 13 June 2019 1:25:11 PM
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Dear belly,

The reason we have half Senate elections is so that populous swings in governments are tempered. It is rightfully difficult to secure control of both houses and it is more important than ever that that remain so.

Here is an excellent perspective by Harry Evans,

"Bicameralism is only a subset of the constitutional principle of division of power. According to that principle unlimited power vested in an individual or group will be abused; it will be used to retain power, to reward supporters and punish opponents and to divert public purposes to private ends. So power must be limited. The only satisfactory method of limitation is to divide power between different bodies with some sort of veto over each other’s actions. Only respect for another power can restrain power. To make the system last, the division is made between institutions, not people."

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/~/~/link.aspx?_id=D0138C33CC444FE7B805BDC227235CE9&_z=z

Harry was our longest serving clerk of the Senate. His paper is well worth a read. Let me know what you think.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 13 June 2019 5:23:57 PM
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Belly,

"ise miserable please keep up with current affairs"

What's current about the Australian Regular Army and One Nation, you've lost me.

Hang on though, maybe you meant the American Rental Association, don't see the connection.
http://www.ararental.org/
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 13 June 2019 8:01:43 PM
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Thanks ise miserable for proving my point
Steel Redux people in increasing numbers to not like or trust politicians
In even bigger numbers they do not understand them or politics
The senate, not just here, can wear some of the blame
Depressing as it is Americans, far too many of them, felt Obama did far too little in his second term
Failing to understand he could not, as he had no control over both houses
Trump was evidence of both,people dislike politicians, and fail to understand the whole subject
IF those voting small parties, say that constant failure to be a party, Hansons toy one nation did so because they saw brilliant policy ?
No Senate, or one reformed to the extent majority's did not need to beg?
IF refusing to let an elected government govern [it will be my side one day] is our wish we too fail as voters
Posted by Belly, Friday, 14 June 2019 8:01:08 AM
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Belly,

"I think the fact an unstable team like the ARA linked Circus one nation is, has no mandate"

I get it, you meant the NRA, but they are not linked to One Nation, so why tell an untruth?
The much-vaunted documentary that the ABC put up supplied by the terrorist linked Al Jazzira proved that there was no connection.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 14 June 2019 8:20:30 AM
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ise miserable yes I got that wrong
Was talking about the NRA
Let you find a way around the taped interview we all saw
Posted by Belly, Friday, 14 June 2019 12:23:01 PM
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Majority rules thankfully
Belly,
Thankfully ? I'd say 'tis rather scary !
Posted by individual, Friday, 14 June 2019 9:40:08 PM
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In saying that indy do you understand you by inference are saying Democracy is wrong
My whole and only reason for calling for, the removal of the Senate
Or the more likely to be achieved outcome, very real reform, is to protect Democracy
IF the promised Tx cuts [in my view wong at this time] are killed in the Senate we truly are a weird mob
Halve the number of Senators, double the votes needed to win a seat, and three year perms so both houses, always, are elected on the same day
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 15 June 2019 7:51:57 AM
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saying Democracy is wrong
Belly,
I wish you'd stop twisting words to suit your bias. No-one says democracy is wrong because there is no Democracy !
Show me where democracy is practised & I'll give in.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 15 June 2019 6:38:16 PM
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Dear Belly,

«My whole and only reason for calling for, the removal of the Senate
Or the more likely to be achieved outcome, very real reform, is to protect Democracy»

The only reason we need a Senate is to try and have a little bit of democracy: had the lower house been democratic and able to represent the people, then indeed we wouldn't need a Senate - but the undemocratic British/Australian electoral system does not allow it.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 15 June 2019 6:52:32 PM
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Gentle men think with me here,you both tell me minority parties,stopping elected government from governing is democracy
Indy even brands me anti democratic because I DISAGREE
What if, and if unlikely still true, just for trouble making sake Labor and the minors forced changes that stopped Adani?
Again, think with me, if the tax bills are stalled or stoped, we may very well face another election of both houses as soon as this year
And again,IF as it would be the government increased its numbers in the lower house
But not in the chook pen, we could start all over again and face yet another election
Stable government first minorities last please
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 16 June 2019 7:20:28 AM
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Dear Belly,

«you both tell me minority parties,stopping elected government from governing is democracy»

In a democracy, people do not elect governments - people elect REPRESENTATIVES to the legislative body which subsequently determines so many things about their own lives.

It so happens that ONE of the things the legislative body does is to form a government - it doesn't even have to be so, and even so it is not even necessary that government, the executive body which runs the day-to-day affairs of the state, be a political body, but well, perhaps this is what people want, perhaps not, we cannot tell until and unless there is democracy with true representation, unlike the farce Australia, like China, is in.

Ideally it is the citizens themselves who should vote on policies, including taxes, Adani, border-control and much more, but alas, this was technically impossible for centuries, thus we have - or are supposed to have, representatives instead. With the advance of technology however, it became technologically possible for the first time in history to have a true and direct democracy.

Political parties ought to be a thing of the past when people vote directly on the policies that affect their future. Meanwhile, we at least deserve to have a truly representative democracy, as close as possible to one-man/woman-one-vote, but alas, the British/Australian electoral system makes a joke of that. The Senate, though invented for other purposes (i.e. to represent the states) is to some degree closer to democracy, thus it ought to remain at least until such time that we have a truly representative democracy.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 16 June 2019 8:35:17 AM
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yuyutsu let us look at things that are achievable, your view would be great, if we could implement it
You would be aware of how many post ww2 election have taken place in Italy
Believe me if the senate turns out to be obstructionist for the sake of it our next election is no more than 12 months away
And for both houses
IF we give in to rabble rousing we could have two such elections, near same results in the three year term
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 16 June 2019 12:00:00 PM
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Dear Belly,

The Senate need not be obstructionist per se, rather, its members who are supposed to represent the public are saying: "my electors believe that this law is good" or "my electors believe that this law is bad". Arithmetic does the rest. Would you like to see laws enacted which most electors believe are bad?

Wouldn't it be better still if electors could vote themselves rather than through representatives? In Switzerland, voters who collect 50,000 signatures can bring about a referendum to overturn new laws. You dread having elections every year, but they instead have referenda about 4 times a year: does it hurt, does the sky fall when ordinary people, flesh and blood, moms and dads can freely express their wishes?

Yes, Italy is significantly more democratic than Australia and yes, there is a small price to pay in [possibly] having more frequent elections: is this price too high, or is democracy just not that important?

Had government been truly servants of the people and acted in accordance with the guidance of the people and/or their representatives, then there would be no need to change governments no matter how many elections occur. Government could then perform its duties continuously and come new elections and/or referenda, all that is needed is a change of policy in the indicated area(s).
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 16 June 2019 2:02:27 PM
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yuyutsu we must live with what we have, not what we want
You are a bright person so think with me here, is my view we need senate reform or removal not , like your view, looking for something better
As the senate was formed to be the states house why has it failed
Must be honest here, it matters, think the tax cuts for high income earners is the wrong thing right now
But too think they have a mandate let them pass
Yes aware it may bite them if a GFC arrives[even think it will] but voters are sick of point scoring fights and the chook pen is at the base of them
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 16 June 2019 4:39:55 PM
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Belly,

"...we must live with what we have, not what we want."

Then take your own advice and accept that we have a Senate.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 16 June 2019 7:53:08 PM
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ise miserable see?'
You can not contribute with any true thought
My words are, if you read the whole post, both a warning we do not have the power to do as yuyutsu wants
Then at the end, a defense of my view by reminding yuyutsu my thoughts are in the end, like his, a call for better
Now you, why do you white ant other contributors
Is it part of your personality
IF so it is failure you must, in the end know you make yourself look silly
Posted by Belly, Monday, 17 June 2019 7:19:31 AM
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Dear Belly,

«yuyutsu we must live with what we have, not what we want»

Yes, and what we have are the results of our previous actions.

Now if we aspire for a better future, then we ought to change the present.

We may not have much power at the moment, but at least we are still free to express how we want things to be. Right now in Hong Kong, the people are struggling for just that, to retain some level of democracy.

So people need to be able to have their voice heard and listened to on the issues that matter most to them, such as whether law-breakers should be extradited to a terrible oppressive regime elsewhere with a totally unjust judicial system.

Yes of course, people are sick of point scoring fights - but that is a fit description for the activities of the lower house, a totally useless and expensive institution where loyalty is only to political parties, not to the voters. While the Senate could benefit from reforms, it is the lower house which ought to be abolished!

You ask, "As the senate was formed to be the states house why has it failed": this is because nearly all members of the Senate (AND all the members of the lower house) are loyal to political parties rather than neither their state nor their voters.

The only legitimate "mandate" that members of parliament have, and for which they are well-paid, is to speak on behalf of their voters. They were never given a license to dictate.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 17 June 2019 10:39:39 AM
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Yuyutsu hard to fight most that post, my party can cuck you for not voting as told
In truth question time is a flea circus
However yes change is promise not a threat
Posted by Belly, Monday, 17 June 2019 11:45:13 AM
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However yes change is promise not a threat
Belly,
In Labor's case it is a threat !
Posted by individual, Monday, 17 June 2019 6:41:00 PM
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Dear Individual,

«In Labor's case it is a threat !»

But not just - in any party's case, but especially the big ones: if ordinary people get to have a say over the mechanism of the state, then this is a retreat for all political parties because they can no longer control our lives.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 17 June 2019 11:26:52 PM
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yuyutsu, here you may think I have lost touch with reality
But I do not think the powers that be [whoever they are] want us to have any say in what takes place
Explain the Bilderberg meetings
Tell me why the UN has parts that claim to represent the world
EG Bank Health, the list goes on
Why the wars in African continent, why not step in and stop them, surely they drive refugee flows
Asking for a better way for westerners to be governed while we ignore the above is crazy
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 1:42:41 PM
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Dear Belly,

«Asking for a better way for westerners to be governed while we ignore the above is crazy»

Well this is the topic at hand, which you presented yourself.
You could just as well say that enjoying an ice-cream is unacceptable while the African continent is ravished by wars.
Would your living on bread and water alone help Africa?
Would you cutting and bruising yourself help other countries?
If you have practical suggestions on how to help those who suffer through wars, then by all means, start a new thread on that. I am personally too old to "step in and stop them", but even if I were younger, I don't believe that it would help.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 2:00:37 PM
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I've downloaded Grammarly and find it very useful; can anyone point me to a Belly Translator?
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 4:15:30 PM
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is emis sorry about your lost intelligence just a hint, don't bother reading if it upsets you
I can never ever meet your standards,see I constantly do my best
And you try to look sillier
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 18 June 2019 4:49:43 PM
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