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The Forum > General Discussion > Ending Globalisation and world trade

Ending Globalisation and world trade

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Had this world never had seas we would not need to talk about this
We, long ago, would speak the same language, and be one humanity
We can not turn back Globalisation, not stop world trade
Tell how if you think we can
Spend some time thinking about a possible world war
Right now, like it or not China Russia, or both together could be the winner
One world would not be optional then
In one hundred years of controlled thought people may welcome it
How would you end both?
Or how would you change both?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 April 2019 1:04:44 PM
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You do not need to stop globalisation or world trade: all you need is to stay yourself out of it, then let others do what they will.

This has to be a gradual process and the first step is to stop consuming and depending on (and for government to stop encouraging/demanding the consumption of and dependence on) anything that cannot be grown/produced in Australia - first and foremost, most digital technology as it cannot reasonably be produced on an Australian scale.

At this first stage it is still OK to import global goods and services so long as the know-how and infrastructure to produce them also exists in Australia (though actual production might be more costly). Meanwhile Australia should reduce its external debt to zero, then gradually start raising tariffs.

"One world" is the worst possible outcome. As much as the state of Australia is too big and centralised, an even larger world-wide state should be avoided at all costs.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 14 April 2019 2:45:44 PM
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Well yuyutsu what do you recomend?
How do we achieve it?
Always knew many here,and in the real world,dislike, even hate both Globalisation and world trade
One poster told me,and they are linked, he wants all recent/past generations of migrants/refugees [I take it he means non whites] repatriated
Globalisation for most is in fact migration /refugees
And Nationalism?
After one hundred years, would the then living generation even know what it meant?
Remember,in my view the west hasn't looked this vulnerable in my lifetime
Victors write the history and maybe the rules for one compliant humanity
How would this country survive if locked out of world trade
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 April 2019 6:09:40 PM
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"Had this world never had seas we would not need to talk about this
We, long ago, would speak the same language, and be one humanity"

Europe, Asia and Africa and their multitudinous civilisations have always been linked without the need for sea travel. Ever heard of the Silk Road? Yet they all spoke different and many languages.

Equally globalisation long preceded sea travel. By some estimates, global trade in the Late Bronze Age (around 1200BC) formed a greater percentage of societal wealth than even current trade. Places like Hattusa (in current Turkey) were trading with China, Afghanistan and Britain in those times. Indeed the societal collapse in 1177BC(?) at the hands of the Sea People (whoever they were) may have been largely caused by the interruption of international trade routes.

We've never been one race, one humanity, one people. Never have, never will be.

"Right now, like it or not China Russia, or both together could be the winner"

Well those of us prepared to defend humanity and freedom will just have to make sure that doesn't happen. 2016 was a good start.
Posted by mhaze, Sunday, 14 April 2019 6:10:07 PM
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TWADDLE! I would be one of those to die first for my country
Trump has spurs so would avoid conflict
China could over run us by launching its 19th century junks armed only with sticks
After millions drowned on the way thousands to every one of us would beat us to death with those sticks
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 April 2019 6:19:17 PM
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Children, calm down. Even if, as Eric Kaufmann observes, the Anglo population in the US falls below 50 % by 2050 or whenever, there are a couple of factors which may help you sleep easy at nights:

* the 'others' will come from both the US itself (African-Americans, Native Americans and Hispanic Americans), and from 200 other countries.

* . a high proportion of those 'others' will be marrying amongst the other Americans and raising their kids as Americans.

Kaufmann himself is of Chinese, Jewish and Hispanic ancestry. As Kaufmann points out, children in a century or so will have similar multiple ancestries, from all over the world. Why's that ? Because our children, and grandchildren, will be happy to marry people from other groups. With Indigenous kids, I can appreciate their common sense.

That will be reality, and I for one welcome it. If you like, that will be a sort of social globalisation'. But the notion that all countries will somehow come under one government is ludicrous. Not gonna happen. Ever.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 14 April 2019 6:36:48 PM
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This is a mind bending topic.
I do not believe a country can grow without external trade.
It would merely keep moving the money amongst it's own people till taxes would eventually erode or absorb the money altogether.
I would like to see a free market situation, where we had NO govt intervention, and the industries could move freely to trade with other countries at will.
Govt's and therefore, ministers, are our biggest problem, together with lobbyists, they 'control' our fate.
A recent and major example, was the motor car manufacturing industry.
It has been one of the most subsidised industries of this country.
When the last car rolled out the door, those of us with an interest in the future of the industry were very pleased expecting the restrictions on imported cars to be lifted.
Well it never happened because some bastards, naming Porsche as one, through a leach lobbyist, convinced the govt to not change the import restrictions.
It is our view, that the new car trade has been enjoying extreme financial benefits, at our expense, and so we find that we are still paying out, but now it's not the new car manufacturing industry.
If we are allowed to import cars of our liking and choosing, nothing will happen to Australia, only the greedy scumbags in the car industry would suffer, even then, only slightly.
I don't know anyone who would shed a tear for the car industry, but I do know thousands of people and heard of tens of thousands more who are shedding plenty of tears over the prices of new and used cars.
If we removed govt from foreign domestic deals, such as laws restricting us from dealing abroad, we would all be much better off.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 14 April 2019 6:52:56 PM
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Dear Belly,

Trade, travel, and telecommunications have made
the nations of the modern world more inderdependent
than ever before.

Yet today's societies entered the nuclear age with
political institutions inherited from a previous
era.

The human population is spread among a series of
sovereign independent states - most of them with their
own armed forces - and so there is a built in
potential for warfare whenever two nations have
conflicting interests.

If we anticipate that some benign and fair "world
government" will take on the task for helping nations to
avoid war, we are likely to be disappointed. No country
is willing to give up its sovereignty to an international
body. Take the United Nations as an example - the UN
is most effective, when the super-powers are able to agree
on a course of action and mobilize their blocs to support
it. Still we do have the UN which provides a forum of
world opinion and a mechanism for conflict resolution.

We also have a growing body of international law that
specifies the rights and obligations that nations have
toward each other - particularly with respect to
aggression. We do have the rulings of the World Court.
But compliance with all this is of course voluntary.
And therein lies the problem.

No country is willing to give up its sovereignty.
Still this is so far the best we've got. And while it
may not always prevent war - it helps make it less likely.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 14 April 2019 7:25:31 PM
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Belly said- We can not turn back Globalisation, not stop world trade

Answer- We don't know whether we can turn back anything unless we try. The Confucian view seems to be that the institutions of the community are critical to the stability of the community. ie. The institutions have a lot of power to influence the community even if it doesn't want to be influenced. So this would seem to imply that there are people within the institutions that benefit from elements of globalization so much that they are willing to betray the community for these benefits. The community doesn't seem to benefit from globalization in the long term
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 14 April 2019 8:14:54 PM
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I agree with Yuyutsu, but we are stuck with globalisation now, barring a mighty upheaval which would force us to pull up the drawbridge.

Not entirely unrelated, an item on the news tonight has it that China is going to complain to the WTO that Australia's refusal to let Huawei into our mobile phone network goes against global trade rules.

What a cheek. The same China totally ignored international condemnation and court findings that their take over of the South China Sea and and their establishing of artificial islands in it was illegal, are now appealingly to international law!

We should not be dealing with China no matter what the cost. Our main foreign contact has to be America, because we cannot protect ourselves from China without U.S help. We cannot protect ourselves from any foreign power without U.S help.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 14 April 2019 8:16:38 PM
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Dear Belly,

«Well yuyutsu what do you recomend?
How do we achieve it?»

Wisely, calmly, gradually, without anger, using the steps I outlined.

«Always knew many here,and in the real world,dislike, even hate both Globalisation and world trade»

Nothing wrong with trade itself - it is the dependency on this trade which is the problem. With it comes the sacrifice of values and morals.

«One poster told me,and they are linked, he wants all recent/past generations of migrants/refugees [I take it he means non whites] repatriated
Globalisation for most is in fact migration /refugees
And Nationalism?»

Whoever this poster is, his/her ideas are the furthest from mine.
I have nothing against migration and refugees and everything against nationalism, HOWEVER, when the choice is between Australian nationalism and Chinese/Russian/American/UN/world/human nationalism, I have no hesitation in selecting the lesser evil - Australian nationalism.

«How would this country survive if locked out of world trade»

With some austerity. Some pain there will be, but starting sooner and doing so wisely, calmly, gradually and without anger should minimise this pain.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 14 April 2019 9:52:04 PM
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Belly if the US Democrats, our Greens & the left of your mob get their way, & decarbonise our world, world trade will be just a memory. With out fuel oil, trade would be back to sailing ships, & the time taken, & cost of international shipping will end most of the trade we currently enjoy.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 14 April 2019 10:05:39 PM
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Have seen every contribution, always do
Let us not get confused M haze briefly took me away from the threads intent
Can honestly say he by supporting the election of Trump, confronts my view this world is a far more dangerous place, because of that election
We should know, tribalism, will not ever kill globalisation
Even, and most of us fear it to some extent, want it to
Trade? we have moved on mhaze from the silk trade
We simply can not live to our current standards without world trade
An insular Australia one wanting to sell to the world but not buying is not possible
CM mate,surely you jest, do you truly think, even a little, we can become white Australia?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 April 2019 6:04:13 AM
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we can become white Australia?
Belly,
Governed by the almighty Dollar, white Australians are selling off this country to foreigners of various ethnicity !
Posted by individual, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:19:14 AM
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The basic problem that faces the world today is the presence of humans. When we become extinct the animals we have domesticated will also all probably become extinct since they will be unable to survive. The rest of the world can go merrily on its way unless another species evolves that is as destructive as humanity.
Posted by david f, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:50:29 AM
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Individual the more I see your contributions the more I understand you fear phantoms
Nothing is perfect about the world, and that is how it will always be, maybe always should be
The need for Improvement drives change
Surprised, truly, thought this subject would bring out many more opposed to both immovable planks in this country's fabric
We can not exist as a modern economy/country without globalisation and world trade
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 April 2019 1:03:00 PM
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We can not exist as a modern economy/country without globalisation and world trade
Belly,
Then why are we spending so much on Defence ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 15 April 2019 3:31:16 PM
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globalisation or not the facts show that Trump by putting America first has the lowest unemployment rate for 49 years. More black Americans in work than ever before. Just maybe (although I doubt it) we might learn a little about putting your people before corrupt UN and ngo's who are basically leaches.
Posted by runner, Monday, 15 April 2019 3:44:48 PM
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Trump! as we know also parted the red sea and gave us the moon to look at on winter nights
OH we could look and find unemployment was on its way down under Obama, but we do not do things like that
We too could remember Obama did not control both houses in his last 4 years but no room for truth here
Trump by wanting America to get balanced books in world trade actually is in my view doing nothing wrong
We would all like that for our country's
But his every action threatens world trade
Putting taxes on incoming goods is bad for world trade, this country can product cattle/sheep and grains without the support America, once the EU gave to prop up inferior growers.
We ARE headed for a world financial crisis, maybe the worst after 1929, Trump is helping it along
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 April 2019 3:56:02 PM
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All the man-made horrors were once the work of a very sick family.
These days there are more of them, complete with in-breeding and mental illness.
They now head a global control collective known by many names.
Names such as the Bilderburg Group, aka, the Elite and there are more.
The sick and greedy, evil bastard who started the thing is the original ROTHSCHILD.
Mayer Amschel Rothschild,the original and founder of the most evil of families in history.
The founder of the Bilderburg Group.
This group comprises of some of the wealthiest and most influential people in the world.
Pointless talking about Globalisation, when the aim of this group has been working towards a state of 'One World Order'.
Forget the UN, I can't quite see how they could have reasonably conceived such an outrageous plan when you consider how many other 'nut jobs' around the world, are either all working towards the same goal or having to settle on sections of the world, because I know we can never get consensus in people let alone govts.
As these guys either own or control 97% of the world banks, and financial institutions they definitely are controlling world govt's, including ours.
And they do it by controlling the money of a country.
If these creeps get their way, we will see a different form of Globalisation, not an end to it.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 15 April 2019 10:36:48 PM
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Conspiracies are often pre made and dumped on the world with intent
The intention being to make it look so insane every conspiracy will be seen as the same
World trade was not, or was it? a conspiracy
Can an intention to trade freely with the world's so economies can grow and find a share in it, be a conspiracy, if so is it bad
Maybe Globalisation is a conspiracy, but is it to bring humanity together? or is it a way to hurt us all
How do we end/reverse Globalisation? why would we want to?
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 6:42:45 AM
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Belly - you state
"Conspiracies are often pre made and dumped on the world with intent
the intention being to make it look so insane every conspiracy will be seen as the same
World trade was not, or was it? a conspiracy
Can an intention to trade freely with the world's so economies can grow and find a share in it, be a conspiracy, if so is it bad
Maybe Globalisation is a conspiracy, but is it to bring humanity together? or is it a way to hurt us all"
How do we end/reverse Globalisation? why would we want to?
:

So what of "Climate Change" - we have no scientific evidence as to our signing up to Paris Climate Change Agreement by Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop.

So why destroy Australia, or security and economy.

Why doesn't the Government "take a stand" and pull out of Paris Agreement.

Do Aussies - have more to say on this - oh yes
Posted by SAINTS, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 10:40:02 PM
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Can anyone guess what kind of sick mind came up with the phrase, 'permit me to issue and control the money of a Nation, and I care not who makes it's laws'.
Well the scum have come a long way since then, and have for decades been the single greatest force and threat to mankind, the like we have never seen before, and most likely to see again.
They have changed their mantra, because for decades they have been the 'King makers'.
They have been behind the selection and election of most of the previous POTUS.
The name is, yes you guessed it, Rothschild!
They financed wars; both sides. Of the same war.
Filthy criminals, the lot of em'.
The best one yet? 9/11?
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 12:59:00 AM
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Can anyone guess what kind of sick mind came up with the phrase, 'permit me to issue and control the money of a Nation, and I care not who makes it's laws'.
Well the scum have come a long way since then, and have for decades been the single greatest force and threat to mankind, the like we have never seen before, and most likely to see again.
They have changed their mantra, because for decades they have been the 'King makers'.
They have been behind the selection and election of most of the previous POTUS.
The name is, yes you guessed it, Rothschild!
They financed wars; both sides.
Filthy criminals, the lot of em'.
The best one yet? 9/11?
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 1:00:31 AM
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Ooops! Sorry could not remember if I had posted.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 1:02:05 AM
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ALTRAV
What's objectionable is not that you've posted the same thing twice, but that you're still so prejudiced against the Rosthschilds that you believe any of the baseless claims against them, including those that originated as Nazi propaganda.

Your prejudice has resulted in gullibility so extreme that you believe the conspiracy nuts who say the Rothschilds own and control all the world's central banks except those of the countries that America recently went, or is likely to go, to war against (despite all but one of the world's central banks actually being 100% government owned).

If you want to discuss the Rothschilds, start by renouncing the lies you've spread!
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 1:46:21 AM
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SAINTS can we consider your post from a middle ground? what are you saying about people like me who think they know, anti global warming is indeed a conspiracy?
We think it is just that,on behalf of the owners of fossil fuel
The owners of millions of petrol stations around this world
A conspiracy that needs, and has achieved, to see people like you fight for it,while ignoring the science, and taking the bait, they hung in front of you
Some conspiracies are too silly to believe but believe some always will
SAINTS one side, do the maths, is wrong, you claim it is mine, I think I know it is yours
Think about the truly massive implications of action to stall climate change on coal and all current fossil fuels and the infrastructure used by it
You will find reason some want it to be untrue
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 7:23:18 AM
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Aiden if you care to read first and comment later, I did appologise as I did not intend posting twice, not my usual style.
I forgot I had already posted, did not know it would actually do it again as I thought the system was designed to recognise the posting and therefore reject it the second time.
What IS really objectionable is YOUR attitude that you know best and all the info out there about this filthy criminal family are wrong, but you are right.
Since when did you join the Rothschild family or the Bilderburg Group to put yourself up as an authority on this sick lot.
Oh and BTW I DO have evidence and proof of what I speak.
What do you have to back your baseless rebuttal?
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 12:10:49 PM
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Aiden no response is the best way around diatribes
Truly Thought we could get right in to both sides of this discussion but seems not to be
Would have liked to see well constructed way around world trade and our economy surviving outside it
Globalisation? enough in that to keep us going, try to do better next subject
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 12:32:37 PM
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ATRAV,

>Aiden if you care to read first and comment later, I did appologise as I did not intend posting twice
Duh! I was responding to your apology!

>What IS really objectionable is YOUR attitude that you know best and all the info out
>there about this filthy criminal family are wrong, but you are right.
If you were willing to look at real evidence rather than nutty conspiracy websites, you'd probably reach the same conclusions I do.

As it is, you refer to "this filthy criminal family" without a shred of evidence of actual criminality.

>Since when did you join the Rothschild family or the Bilderburg Group to put yourself up as an authority on this sick lot
Since when did you do so?

I'm not an expert on the Rothschilds nor the Bilderberg Group, and never claimed to be. I do know considerably more about them than you do, though, as I get my evidence from reputable sources, whereas you treat the words of conspiracy bloggers as evidence!

Do you understand and accept that the Nazis made up lies about the Rothschilds in order to stir up public sentiment against Jews?

Do you understand that there are a lot of lies out there, and spotting truth is something that cant' just be done based on feelings?

On a previous thread I challenged you to identify the source of your claim that the Rothschilds fooled the British into thinking they'd lost the Battle of Waterloo (when all the reputable sources say they'd actually informed the British of the win). You responded with the lie that Google could answer my question.

As I said, it's your lies you should apologise for, not your recent repetition.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 7:18:58 PM
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And people wonder why I respond so aggressively to stupid posts, and their authors.
You are no better than the conspiracy theorists you vilify.
You actually think that your sources are to be believed and mine aren't.
Where the hell do you and your followers get off?
OK just to put you back in your box, I dare you to look at this site.
As they say, 'read em' n weep'.

http://humansarefree.com/2013/11/complete-list-of-banks-ownedcontrolled.html

The info and my conclusion is real and all the facts about this vial family are a matter of history, and on the record, if you actually want to know the truth.
Obviously you are either a sympathiser or a jew.
Either way, I have the dirt on them and you can't do anything but to 'read em' n weep'.
Before you try to rebut, think long and hard about how you can disprove these facts about them, which are now well known in historical records and reports
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 9:45:16 PM
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ALTRAV,
If I linked to a web page claiming the Apollo moon landings were faked by the tooth fairy, would you believe it? Because that claim is literally as real as those on your link!

Apart from the US Federal Reserve, there's not a cent of Rothschild equity, or indeed any private equity, in any central bank. They have all either been nationalized (like the Bank of England was in 1946) or been in the public sector right from the start (like the Reserve Bank of Australia).

And I notice you're too chicken to answer my questions.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 11:23:33 PM
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Aiden, I don't know what medication you're on but I answered your futile question and if you can actually read, (I am beginning to doubt it) you will find my current link answers you as well.
What it doesn't do is give the answer you want to hear.
Your attitude demonstrates your inability to accept anything which YOU find uncomfortable and hard to accept or believe, and is an indictment of your continual promotion of platitudes and does you no favours.
Now I don't care if what I say does not sit well with you.
As I said, if you are somehow connected with this filthy family, then you can talk, until then, unless you have some dirt on them, no-one cares. You must realise that there is a mountain of dirt on these guys, accumulated over their lifetime, and yet you decide you know better than Google or Wiki and other sources of information.
If any of this stuff is in doubt, then it would be challenged and if found to be false, would be removed.
As for the battle of Waterloo, what these scumbags did was pure and simple theft with malice.
You may find deceptive and criminal acts acceptable, I don't, and at the scale they did it was even more criminal.
It's not bad enough they lied and authored one of the biggest scams of the current era, but they caused the collapse of the British economy, only to have hi-jacked and blackmailed it, and in doing so, ripped off the British financial institutions for personal and selfish gains.
It's all in the link, even the answer to your question (again).
Oh and BTW, I am not taking you seriously over the dirt I have garnered on this family for years now, so don't bother trying to convince me other than to answer MY question.
Are you involved with this family somehow, or are you a jew?
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 18 April 2019 3:41:58 AM
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Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 April 2019 6:04:13 AM

CM mate,surely you jest, do you truly think, even a little, we can become white Australia?

Answer-

Diversity and Equal Opportunity policy prevents the support of our own culture and kin. If this were to change then a White Australia policy would be possible.

There seem to be corrosive contradictions between liberalist policies in contemporary society- they are somewhat Trotskyist.

Joseph Stiglitz- Nobel Prize for Economics said - if a culture doesn't benefit from a system then they will not invest in it.

Posted by david f, Monday, 15 April 2019 11:50:29 AM

The basic problem that faces the world today is the presence of humans. When we become extinct the animals we have domesticated will also all probably become extinct since they will be unable to survive. The rest of the world can go merrily on its way unless another species evolves that is as destructive as humanity.

Answer- Some humans and human cultures are more responsible than others- but generally I agree with this comment. Culture has an important role both internally and externally but looks to destruction by the invasion of Liberalism- the culture to end all cultures
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 18 April 2019 6:18:29 AM
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CM you, not me, put yourself in an extremist right group
Consider the implications of trying to remove non whites from this country
We are all migrants
What would you do with the only true Australians
What country in the world can claim to be one race
What benefits come from purely race based dogma
We in fact, us and the world, gain more than we see lost, by integration of humanity
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 18 April 2019 7:17:21 AM
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Stop selling land to non-citizens. Stop giving foreign interests the running of vital facilities here. Stop negative gearing.
Take these steps & things will improve in a flash !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 18 April 2019 7:46:03 AM
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Our first Nation would have said this not long after the first fleet arrived
Indy tell me, how do we retrieve the land already owned by foreign citizens
Quite a few [see those forced to leave parliament] would be white
I contend no way exists to reverse Globalisation, and highlight, most call multiculturalism that
We however can, right or wrong, set both limits on numbers, and who can or can not come here, not however without pain
Now tell me, know you are thinking it, that w have made a lot of improvements post that first fleet
But you will not convince me we will not do just that in the next 200 years just as we are, part of globalisation
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 18 April 2019 12:38:00 PM
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Posted by Belly, Thursday, 18 April 2019 12:38:00 PM

Now tell me, know you are thinking it, that w have made a lot of improvements post that first fleet. But you will not convince me we will not do just that in the next 200 years just as we are, part of globalisation.

Answer- I don't expect to convince Belly and I'm sure that there are many that won't be convinced but I'd hope that the vast majority see the limitations of the current multicultural and diversity policies- even if they are unsure of how they can be solved.

Then the conservative traditionalists have to focus on obtaining positions that enable policy solutions- with the help of the electorate.

We will have to draw on tools that are both historical and contemporary.

When the student is ready the teacher will appear..
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 18 April 2019 11:01:39 PM
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CM it remains my view you are an extremist
Not terrorist just someone with extremist views
That nothing we could do ever, will return us to white Australia, or its variations
Too while storys like this morning SMH about two Muslims telling the court they had no right to charge them makes my blood boil
I understand it is just two total idiots who SHOULD BE SENT HOME
We however must understand we can live together
Not them, but that is the case for every race or creed some are more trouble than they are worth
An unspoken truth exists, some one, UN ? is pushing this world towards one people one planet, and we do not have the power to stop them
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 April 2019 6:37:40 AM
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Obviously you have never heard of Beirut Belly.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 19 April 2019 10:56:20 AM
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Hasbeen hold on old mate, tightly
Once lost contact with reality is never recovered
That internal war was a cold war when balanced against the one in Liberal ranks
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 April 2019 12:09:02 PM
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Belly, here's a suggestion.
Just to throw but one name in the hat regarding 'someone wanting to rule the world', have you heard of the Bilderburg Group, aka The Elite, and many other names.
I know I keep bringing them up but there is too much evidence and it is historical, to simply dismiss it as 'conspiracy theories' as so many do.
You just can't make this stuff up, and so it is that I have to take note of anything which adds fuel to the fire whenever I come across it.
The 'One world' order is not of my doing or creation, it is part of this groups master plan.
How the heck they can be so arrogant as to think they could ever pull it off is another story, what with so many other 'nut jobs' in the world vying for the same title.
In the meantime they have been manipulating our very lives and well-being to achieve their rotten gains and ends.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 19 April 2019 12:09:56 PM
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It is my intention never ever to talk to the above poster
But I do know about that group, and question if it has nothing to hide why they do not open the doors to everyone
It remains my view a great deal of behind the scenes things are going on
And that we have no control over them
Including however a true conspiracy by the very right, to blacken any other form of government
While I understand everyone has a right to their views I have given enough opportunity to some and will avoid contact
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 April 2019 4:02:46 PM
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Belly, what are you? three years old.
Just to put your mind at ease, as it appears you are concerned, otherwise you would not have mentioned it, but, I don't lose sleep over you or your petulant and childish announcements or comments.
You see unlike you, not wanting to admit it, I 'am' bothered by someone who makes unfounded and unprovoked offensive and baseless comments about another person.
But I respect ones right to say whatever they wish, and so too, my right of rebuttal.
So by all means, you have my blessing to ignore me and my comments from now on.
I prefer engaging with people of substance, and open minds, who think beyond the obvious, and who are prepared to consider all views, and not those demonstrated by yourself and your subjective and ideologue mates here on OLO.
BTW, if your going to ignore me, don't post a response to me or my comments.
Just a little suggestion that might get you back in the 'cred club', after shooting yourself in the foot. (again)
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 19 April 2019 9:51:28 PM
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Belly said-

CM it remains my view you are an extremist
Not terrorist just someone with extremist views

Answer-

I generally don't find it very useful to use the word extremist but feel free to use it if it pleases you. Be aware that you are playing the man rather than the argument- ad hominum- this is felt by some as a "fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

If you consider minority views as extreme then your accusation may be true. I'm unsure whether they are minority views- and even if they are do they serve the peoples interest or not.

There are two points here based on the above.
1. Is the White Australia policy valid or invalid.
2. Is the White Australia policy viable.

On point 1- the validity of a policy will be based on a number of beliefs these being valid or invalid based on some arbitrary standard. If enough people support a particular arbitrary standard then this can become a culture or a law. It is important to have standards- but I wouldn't say they are necessarily authoritative from a historical perspective. It's often useful to analyse the underlying reasons for policies in the context of their creation.

On point 2- The viability of a policy will be based on political factors usual to the implementation of governmental policies. These can include finance, public support, legality (the laws can be changed), enforceability, institutional support, and others.

Paraphrasing Ayn Rand- Atlas Shrugged- "by what standard do you pass judgement". "Their system relies on the consent of the condemned".

Belly seems to be straddling the political divide at times- many think it wise to be moderate- the illness of do-gooders- perhaps he will come to an alternate conclusion- perhaps not.
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 12:23:53 AM
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Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 April 2019 6:37:40 AM
Comment1-

Too while storys like this morning SMH about two Muslims telling the court they had no right to charge them makes my blood boil
I understand it is just two total idiots who SHOULD BE SENT HOME

Answer1- At least Belly can see that the Muslims mentioned in the SMH article are inconsistent with the Australian context.

Comment2-

We however must understand we can live together

Answer2-

At some level all the peoples on the planet need to live together- however that still leaves wide scope for implementation. The leaders of France, Germany, and the UK have apparently admitted that multiculturalism is a failure. There appear to be many issues with multiculturalism that while not being strictly illegal do cause simmering conflict with the host population. Whilst these conflicts may not be seen as significant to some- some do find them unacceptable. Sometimes the best way of living together is to stay on your side of the fence- in the cultural context this means having strong borders.

Comment3-

Not them, but that is the case for every race or creed some are more trouble than they are worth

Answer3-

I would argue that some races or creeds are too incompatible to be worth the effort. But at least Belly seems to be acknowledging that certain people are unacceptable in Australia.

Comment4-

An unspoken truth exists, some one, UN ? is pushing this world towards one people one planet, and we do not have the power to stop them

Answer4-

At least Belly is seemingly able to acknowledge that there is a powerful elite movement towards "one people one planet" as he calls it and the national populations appear not to have the power to stop them. ie. the world is becoming more tyrannical.

Some believe that one should not bow to thugs so when confronted with such it is their duty to fight no matter the odds. Maybe this is where Belly and others diverge. The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 12:44:45 AM
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CM as much as it will raise the ire of the fairies and dreamers on OLO, I am one such person you mention in the closing paragraphs of your last post.
I have always tried to explain that even though there are those out there who believe that if you say people are nice, they will automatically be nice, even though they have declared the opposite.
I have lived among Muslims, in a Muslim country, and have no qualms or grief with them, until there is a conflict of interest or religion or social differences.
As you point out, this multiculturalism is not working.
I believe it has worked in the main, but there are always the exceptions to everything in life, and in this context it is the Muslims who have exposed themselves to scrutiny, as possibly never before.
The gypsies are a problem in Europe, and have been for as long as memory serves, but they are not a threat to life and limb as is declared by the teachings of the Koran.
The gypsies are merely a nuisance who simply conduct petty crimes, mainly stealing, pick-pocketing and so on.
But they shy away from corporal crimes such as physical attacks and worse, unlike some races we are now seeing in Australia.
The group I mentioned earlier and am reluctant to mention again, for fear of mass attacks of verbal excrement from the ideologues, are responsible for all the woes of the world for decades, and I cannot figure out what exactly they hope to gain, apart from what they have said, their goals are.
To rule the world, but this would mean they would have to align themselves with the other despots also looking to world domination like China and Russia, just to name two.
Ah well, I can't wait for the next installment from the kids in the OLO kindergarten to see where this post takes us next.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 20 April 2019 2:09:21 AM
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CM NOT EASY telling how I feel about this, see while understanding not all from any faith are a threat
Some are, the same can be said about WASP

It gets harder here, but as you said or was it that other poster?
We have a right to our opinions
Islam, like all faiths, is a useful tool to keep the kids quite [us]
No God ever existed
And just as our [or better maybe your God] empowered Catholics to molest children, some at least are pure evil [followers]
It is my view some followers, not near all,of Muslim faith, are not fit to live with, these two bigoted men for a start
Not nice my views but in the end faith in the thousands of Gods we created must surely ask if one of them did make us all he/she must have lost the plot to make so many imitators
And let every one of them at some time, murder in his/her name
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 20 April 2019 5:50:45 AM
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Everyone murders in the name of their own philosophy that's the way that philosophies keep people in line. New ones probably murder more. They deny the necessities of life. So much better for families to do it than other entities. The mistake is believing that your philosophy is any less arbitrary than another- so let everyone keep the philosophy they have lived by as nations and cultures as traditional peoples. But those that "mooch and loot" - the Left and Right Liberalists don't like it because they want absolute power- so they contrive to adjust reality to their desires and call it good. ;) ..
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 6:56:46 AM
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ALTRAV- Thanks for your comments.
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 6:57:46 AM
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CM, you are most welcome.
You are one of the commentors I look forward to reading.
Always focused, to the point and informative.
It would be nice to have more like you, instead of, like some on OLO, from the kindergarten.
Thank you.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 20 April 2019 8:12:42 AM
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To ALTRAV- High praise indeed- all I can say is thank you- hopefully I can play a modest role. Some on OLO seem to be afraid to commit to principles. We are all afraid- some face it... Stay on your horse my knightly friend- out of the mud. ;) .
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 10:28:19 AM
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CM understand not commiting to or agreeing with your view is no crime
Reality is shouting from the sidelines your views can never be achieved
We can however make living together in a globalised world better
Worth noting I hold the same views about some posters remoteness from the average, as they have about me
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 20 April 2019 12:03:50 PM
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Posted by Belly, Saturday, 20 April 2019 12:03:50 PM

CM understand not commiting to or agreeing with your view is no crime

Answer- If you view the above answers to your comments it seems that we have basically the same views at least on this item with the difference that I am further along the scale. There are certain Liberalist concepts that Belly appears unwilling to question. I understand that can make one uncomfortable and nothing I can say will convince you that my views are the same as yours. Discomfort is related to fear- it can be very difficult to think about your beliefs in the night. I find it enjoyable to push through the terror and to come out the other side. I think there is a Japanese word for this bitter sweet feeling. Nothing of value happens without pain.

I feel that certain Treasonous Liberalist Concepts are harmful to society similar to John Stewart Mills claim that one should not be free to promote violence (or to be disrespectful to judges). Perhaps we should investigate whether these Liberalist views should be proscribed by law and have approapriate measures to prevent their spread.

Anyway Belly's views above gives me hope that perhaps if even a committed Social Liberalist such as Belly can see reason then there is some hope for the world
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 12:42:34 PM
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CM never doubt many you brand socialist think just as I do
We however are not socialists
The lurch to the right, powered by refugee/migration has seen the once average now branded extreme
I still think managing the rise of globalism is far more achievable than stopping it
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 20 April 2019 3:51:27 PM
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Posted by Belly, Saturday, 20 April 2019 3:51:27 PM

Comment1-

CM never doubt many you brand socialist think just as I do
We however are not socialists

Answer1-

I didn't actually call you a Socialist at least in this case. I said you were a Social Liberalist otherwise known as a Social Libertarian. If your policies are Social Libertarian you are a Social Libertarian what ever you claim to identify with. Multiculturalism is a Social Liberalist policy if you support it you are supporting Social Liberalism. Socialists and Communists use Social Liberalist policies as shock tactics as Trotsky advocates in his permanent revolution. So Social Libertarian's and Liberal concepts generally seem to be the tools used by Communists to direct their "Useful Idiots". Marcuse and others of the Frankfurt school are interesting case study's of the link between Communism and Social Libertarianism. The movement that led to links between Gay society and the Workers movement saw the strengthening of the Liberalist nature and the power of the movement. Some would say this was good for workers others would argue it detracted from the core aim of the workers. The arguments that I've heard seem to talk about the class warfare of Marx hence the links with Communism. Of a slight tangent the "class warfare" argument is similar to the "they came for the gays but I wasn't gay" Jewish/ solidarity argument.

However your accusation is probably valid as I believe it is somewhat irrelevant whether a person is a Communist or just a tool of the Communists.

Comment2-

The lurch to the right, powered by refugee/migration has seen the once average now branded extreme.

Answer2-

Not sure what you are saying here.
But I think this has been covered elsewhere
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 21 April 2019 1:04:44 AM
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CM Guilty as charged
I can never stop believing everyone has the opportunity to be equal
If wrong education stops,and if everyone gets an education
TOO THAT MAN HAS NO NEED FOR A God,that murder and war comes from our many invented Gods
That no race is inferior, that only education and opportunity separates us
That the very rich must pay a fair share of tax
Money should not buy political influence
Yes too think globalisation, pain it brings to some and all, is a move towards a better world
World trade, as it always has been, a building block of civilization must become true free trade free of all restrictions and imposed levees
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 21 April 2019 5:42:19 AM
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I can never stop believing everyone has the opportunity to be equal.
Belly,
I used to believe that too until the academic make-believe elite threw that spanner into the works.
The Left got sucked into this black hole only to be spat out as hood-winking Democrat Socialists !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 April 2019 8:20:03 AM
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The right has done a number on the center and true left, in introducing the term left for every one who thinks different than them
We will see, in time, the right fall because in the end it defends those with money and power and has little regard for community building
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 21 April 2019 3:52:28 PM
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the term left for every one who thinks different
Belly,
not quite, the term is not for people who think different, it's for people who don't think !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 April 2019 7:12:06 PM
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Comment3-

I still think managing the rise of globalism is far more achievable than stopping it

Answer3- At least you seem to support the idea that slowing the rise of globalism is desirable. In that at least we agree. But I'm sure you wouldn't agree- even though I believe it follows- that Nationalism being the opposite of Globalism is "the embodiment of the policy of slowing the rise of globalism". So I would say that even Belly seems to be adopting Nationalist views despite his claimed identification. Being Nationalist is a broad concept- most countries in the past were Nationalistic. I believe that with the founding of the UN certain correlating factors and the rise of certain organisational influences led to the concept of Nationalism being denigrated.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 21 April 2019 11:33:40 PM
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Posted by Belly, Sunday, 21 April 2019 5:42:19 AM

CM Guilty as charged

Answer- Well at least you seem to admit that you find it difficult to find the faults in Social Libertarian arguments- Kudos.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 21 April 2019 11:45:17 PM
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CM some things can never be ignored, we humans are sometimes not all that bright
Right now we refuse to see overpopulation is driving refugees and migration
Yes too Banana Republic dictators, such as south America, who are starving their own people
Any country that can not feed and house its population is over populated
World population is the biggest single thing we must address
WE are now at peak numbers and must stop growing
If we are again told Capitalism requires constant growth we must find a different form of capitalism
Posted by Belly, Monday, 22 April 2019 7:27:11 AM
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I just read that the World's richest man Jeff Bezos is still living with his wife after their divorce.
Makes me wonder what is in the making in the global market ? I mean if things go Belly-up (sorry Belly, nothing personal) her billions will be untouchable whilst their employees can lose.
Do the Bezos's know what's going to come in the globalised market ?
Should there be an international market Law to close loopholes now ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 22 April 2019 7:59:38 AM
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Dear Belly,

You wrote: "…we humans are sometimes not all that bright. Right now we refuse to see overpopulation is driving refugees and migration.”

You are bright to see what is happening. Many others are bright enough to see what is happening. However, we often have in control those who have a drive for power. They are bright enough to gain power but either not bright enough to see what is happening or blinded by the gains that they make from that power to be concerned with it is happened. Perhaps those who have the desire for power are usually so flawed that they cannot use that power wisely.

You also wrote: “World population is the biggest single thing we must address.”

I agree. However, that fact is ignored for other considerations. You are a devoted member of the Labor Party. The Labor Party does not have population growth at the top of their agenda. The Greens which I favour do not have population growth at the top of their agenda.

In Australia there is a party which has that at the top of their agenda – Sustainable Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_Australia tells about them.
https://www.sustainableaustralia.org.au/ is their website.

I may join Sustainable Australia.

You also wrote: “If we are again told Capitalism requires constant growth we must find a different form of capitalism."

A different form of capitalism has already been found. It exists in the Scandinavian countries which have a great level of economic equality, low level of corruption, great educational facilities, a high level of political participation and democracy along with high taxes. We could have it here if we could get politicians and political parties who would run on a platform of raising taxes to a level high enough to redistribute wealth and provide the services all of us in a caring society deserve.
Posted by david f, Monday, 22 April 2019 8:08:50 AM
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David F said- A different form of capitalism has already been found. It exists in the Scandinavian countries which have a great level of economic equality, low level of corruption, great educational facilities, a high level of political participation and democracy along with high taxes. We could have it here if we could get politicians and political parties who would run on a platform of raising taxes to a level high enough to redistribute wealth and provide the services all of us in a caring society deserve.

Answer- Another way to achieve equality of opportunity is by reducing the population to a level where everyone has enough cheap land to support themselves and reducing the costs of tax and government. Despite any failings of primogeniture it does have some advantages. Primogeniture- "the right, by law or custom, of the paternally acknowledged, son to inherit his parent's entire or main estate, in preference to daughters, elder illegitimate sons, younger sons and collateral relatives; in some cases the estate may instead be the inheritance of the firstborn child or occasionally the firstborn daughter."
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 22 April 2019 9:16:30 AM
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Dear Canem Malum,

Primogeniture creates its own problems. In the eleventh century it created younger sons of the nobility trained in the use of arms with little prospects for a future. They were a nuisance in the countryside marauding, raping peasant girls, etc. In 1096 Pope Urban II called for a Crusade. This removed the younger sons of the nobility to the Middle East neatly transferring a pain in the neck in Europe to an unwelcome presence in the eastern Mediterranean.

I agree with you about reducing the population. The Chinese tried it with their one child policy involving compulsory abortions which to me is undesirable. How would you do it?
Posted by david f, Monday, 22 April 2019 10:16:50 AM
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China's one child policy, no longer exists, but it and Asian wish for sons still impacts
A day may come, if it has not already, that wars are fought to gain brides
Population control will bring other problems, maybe a two child policy?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 22 April 2019 12:40:51 PM
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david f, if I may weigh in on your question.
The Chinese method would work, although I believe it was only intended for a certain part of the population.
I cannot recall if it was aimed at the rural or urban, folks.
I think there was a 'pass' clause, that if you had an extra child you had the option of paying a fee or a 'fine'.
The problem I recall, was that because of the Chinese tradition of preferring a male over a female, the act of terminating was practiced if it was a girl.
The one child policy would work, the only problem being the enforcement of such a law, and it would have to be law.
Then there is the problem of different cultures and their propensity to reproduce, either due to lack of contraception because of their faith or the eagerness to create more offspring because of their fate.
Muslims come to mind as the Koran teaches/encourages it's followers to go forth and reproduce as many children as possible.
I think it has something to do with overwhelming the world with Muslims, therefore making them the majority and so taking control of countries by vote and not by force.
We are seeing this happening with examples like Turkey.
A local example closer to home, as I recall, a Sydney Mayor was of Chinese birth, a perfect example of my point, and it is in our own 'front' yard.
There is another more relevant and current option which is trending more and more.
This current, and I fear, future generations, are becoming less inclined or drawn into 'family' lives, because of the selfish and self centred doctrines being pushed by certain groups such as feminists.
These females have lost their way through being groomed over the years, into believing they do not need men any more, so more and more females are choosing the 'single' life, having a 'partner' for such social events like socialising, sex, company when it suites them, but ultimately they have chosen the secular life of a career over a family.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 April 2019 1:30:49 PM
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I feel guilty for having three, but I had a great talk with my first born this am. So far none of my six grandchildren have produced young, but I think they all have the requisite equipment. Maybe they all will see the folly and will refrain. Along with my guilt I take a great joy in my nine descendants.
Posted by david f, Monday, 22 April 2019 1:31:51 PM
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A 'two child' policy will do nothing.
The numbers will remain as they are today.
If we are serious about the overpopulation problem it must be at least, or no more than a 'one child' policy.
The reduction in population and the time it will take will be quite dramatic and have a real effect in suddenly seeing the number of people drop by quite a large amount.
Zero children is not advisable, as we need a 'next' generation to carry on, and we will need support in our aging years.
All this of course is, even if possible, not an option because humankind is way too selfish or way too ignorant.
Even if the Western Countries came into line, there are many more Asian Countries that would fight to the death before they would be told they could not have more than one child, even though it will hasten both them and their children's death if they did not comply.
And worst of all, let's not forget Islam and it's teachings.
If the Koran has it written in it's pages, we might actually stand a chance, but when your, so called 'bible' says get out there and copulate as much as you can and produce as many children as you can, WE have a problem.
Somehow I feel we are being led over a cliff by a blind guide, some of which are here on OLO.
It is so frustrating when you can see a problem, and you can see how to fix it, but for all the wrong reasons, they are all ignored.
Ah well, I will be dead soon so it won't affect me, but it will affect those I leave behind, and that is the heart wrenching part of this whole debacle.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 April 2019 1:56:32 PM
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David F- Thanks for your challenge to come up with my preferred solution for population control. I would prefer benign forms over less benign but in the end there must be action. Population mismanagement is not so much of an issue for the Traditional British Australian people- we seem to have been fairly responsible in this regard.

Generally I believe in national sovereignty and non-interference with other nations internal affairs. However national population mismanagement as Belly has succinctly put is apparently the cause of refugee and immigration activity- and this population issue seems to have overflowed the boundaries of national borders.

We may not have "a right" to interfere with the internal affairs of a country but we do have "a right" to stop the results of these internal affairs from passing our borders.

We should also be acting diplomatically to address the population problem knowing that if more countries refuse to accept people from these nations that the pressure to act within these countries will continue to rise.

By giving these countries a pressure release valve without addressing the underlying problem we are probably creating a future world wide disaster. Organisations cannot be allowed to become too big too fail.

There is a risk of war and low level conflict with neighbouring countries as internal pressure rises. There is a risk of enmity between high population countries and Australia as a result of our attempts to address the problem diplomatically.

I would attempt to create policies that aim to freeze cultural osmosis across national borders.

Joseph Nye talked about Hard and Soft Power- we can use hard power at our borders and the soft power of "education" and "setting a good example " on how the west is able to achieve high standards of lifestyle based on managing our resources- in this case managing our population over the existing land area.
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 22 April 2019 2:28:32 PM
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There are people in society that benefit from growth and there are people that are harmed by growth- we need to talk to those that are harmed by growth. Fear of self harm will get people to act to reduce harm to themselves and hopefully also to the world.

Liberalism cannot work in the current world- we just do not have enough resources for everyone to live like the western world does. There is just not enough land, fresh water, energy.

It doesn't necessarily follow however that the western world is to blame- but that is another conversation.

Anyway hopefully this goes some way to answering your question David F. I may have some more on your primogeniture comments later- I have acknowledged that there are some issues with that system- but it is only by critically investigating different solutions that we can find ones that work for our communities.

I'm happy that you have been able to spend some time with your family over Easter- this simple thing has become somewhat of a luxury in the contemporary world.

There is nothing like family- especially your own- it's the basis of the community
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 22 April 2019 2:29:41 PM
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I am currently compiling a reply to Belly's latest post but in respect to those on OLO I want to be sure it's well constructed and not off-track.
Posted by Canem Malum, Monday, 22 April 2019 2:34:05 PM
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I am happy to see that nearly all of us agree: the root problem is overpopulation, whereas nationalism and globalism are only its symptoms. We have differences over which of the two is more tolerable than the other as well as technical differences as to how to achieve a reduction in population, yet we do have a rare agreement here on OLO - hurray!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 22 April 2019 2:39:11 PM
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yuyutsu yes well done, but another issue arises
Did you say you are Buddhist? in any case my contributions to another thread, targeting all Muslims,brought to my mind that faith
Whilea is the truth for any group, a few extremist exist in that faith I do not believe ever, terrorist acts would come from that faith
Yes population,it is already too big, we rush to a dreadful day humanity will not be able to grow enough food supply enough water and it should be humanity's next issue to resolve
Posted by Belly, Monday, 22 April 2019 6:31:09 PM
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Dear Belly,

Almost there, I follow the Hindu religion. And yes, extremists can be found everywhere, including violent ones who fail to understand that violence only distances them from God.

Regarding your concern about food and water, I think that materially, with science and technology even more humans can be squeezed on this planet. What concerns me most, rather, are the social and moral repercussions of this squeeze and the technology that is needed to support it - the quality of life rather than the material standard of living.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 22 April 2019 7:01:08 PM
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the quality of life rather than the material standard of living.
Yuyutsu,
I go along with that ! Of course we could fit another few billion humans but then we'd have to forfeit human rights !
Posted by individual, Monday, 22 April 2019 7:42:24 PM
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I remember some time ago, someone ran the numbers based on the one child policy throughout the whole world.
Now I know this will be rejected by many countries, but it was a 'what if' paper.
I don't remember the actual numbers, only the surprise as to how quick the world population diminished.
It was such that it was well worth the trial.
It demonstrated that within three generations we were back to approx two thirds of the numbers today, or something similar.
It was quite a telling little exercise if someone would care to crunch the numbers.
But as we all know there are those who for whatever reason just want to keep pushing out kids.
I have said for as long as this CC and GW farcical has been going on, we should have instead put all that wasted CC energy and money into reducing world populations, not CO2.
I suppose there is an irony to the two because if CO2 and it;s continual increase is in fact true, well we need not do anything as the CC or CO2 will reduce the earth's population and we don't have to do a thing.
So it is that it will be a win, win situation.
There, problem solvered!
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 22 April 2019 8:39:03 PM
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yuyutsu yes every faith has its killers but why?
Not going to agree with even more people but see you agree lifestyle matters
As it is my view we humans are failing to solve the worlds problems, maybe some one wants us to fail
We will, one day,see the victors of a war, tell us how to live
The task to become a better more equal world can be done
But first we must want to try
Inter race/faith hate will not do it
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 6:48:15 AM
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Answer1-

It's not just dictatorships that are overpopulated. India is a democratic nuclear power and looking at permanent UN membership- and while it's population is stabilizing after 2003 levels it's population is at dangerous levels and still growing. India is currently passing China as the most populated single nation- but as you've alluded the African continent has probably already passed both of them. China made some hard but in my view necessary steps to address their population growth.

The institution of democracy and education is not necessarily correlated with rationality.

Patrick Deneen comments that the institution of Liberal Democracy in it's assumption of a "limitless bounty" is possibly the main cause of Social (population) and Economic (inequality) problems.

Comment2-

Any country that can not feed and house its population is over populated
World population is the biggest single thing we must address
WE are now at peak numbers and must stop growing
If we are again told Capitalism requires constant growth we must find a different form of capitalism

Answer2-

Anthropologists allude to the idea that ideas are cultural and lead to the success or failure in this case of managing their population.

There are also deep seated drives within humans and animals to expand and invade others territory and access their resources. There is some relationship perhaps between these drives and liberalism. Perhaps liberalism is an enabler of unsustainable and aggressive expansion and the negative side of human nature in our current context. There are a few examples of behaviors that enabled stone age survival and "ancient good" cause "modern bad".

There are principles of Liberal Democracy that affect the management of nations that badly manage their affairs in this case their populations.

If the principles of Liberal Democracy are ineffective they need revision.

Liberal Democracy and Globalisation are related ideologies. Traditionalism, Nationalism, Culture and Stone Age Tribalism are related ideologies
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:28:09 AM
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Posted by Belly, Monday, 22 April 2019 7:27:11 AM

Comment1-

CM some things can never be ignored, we humans are sometimes not all that bright
Right now we refuse to see overpopulation is driving refugees and migration
Yes too Banana Republic dictators, such as south America, who are starving their own people
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:28:59 AM
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John Locke the inventor of Liberal Democracy attempted perhaps to reduce conflict by introducing universal principles. These universal principles appear to have led to interesting complications- perhaps even causing conflict- and perhaps the idea that sometimes conflict and contention is a necessary feature of stability management. This is embodied in the legal system- an imperfect system- but part of the technology of governing. These universal principles aim at objectivity- upon a detailed investigation it's possible to see cracks of arbitrariness in the supposed objectivity- in the history of philosophy a movement advocated a universal "natural law"- many consider that this movement failed in their objective- perhaps Locke's Universal Principles also find this conclusion- as Anthropologists have done with Cultural Relativism- but Liberalists still seem to "keep banging on" trying to "fake it till they make it".

----

It's difficult in the short term to prove whether one culture or another are superior managers. Being "superior" may not matter if the cultural systems are incompatible- but perhaps everyone should belong to a culture- they should maintain their links to maintain their identity and their health- they should nurture their culture and protect it from damage. To mix cultures may cause instability and a failure of management.

To bring incompatible cultures together is to cause conflict.

We need to reward good management and educate and punish the bad ones. As Ayn Rand says if you reward evil and punish good the world will destroy itself- this is what Liberalism is doing.

As one wise mother said "I treat all my children the same- by treating them differently"- based on their natures.

It's the same with countries, cultures and companies.

We need to model our systems on evolution and create opportunities- in the final scene- for them to fail gracefully rather than spectacularly. Apoptosis rather than Necrosis. Sometimes humans need failure to teach them success- allow people to fail small rather than big. This is a somewhat Taoist view
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:31:24 AM
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Focusing on ones own culture and sphere rather than global issues enables individuals to control their exposure to instability and manage their society. Also a Taoist principle perhaps- manage the big by managing the small.

National and cultural pride can be a very positive force but sometimes needs to be directed in a sustainable direction.

I see that corporate reliance on growth could reach an immovable object- what will happen?- no one knows- perhaps they will look for increased stability in their investments- this is starting to look like Traditionalism...

Corporatism and Communism are very similar systems in certain aspects- maybe they will die together like Romeo and Juliette. Romeo the archetypical man and Juliette the archetypical woman.
Both representative of the disfunctional worlds they created. ;) .
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 10:32:34 AM
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Every thing I know tells me right now with America in the hands of a fool, no not barbed, just honest thought
China presents a very real threat to world peace
The signs are there, victors write history
Globalisation my soon be forced on us
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 11:58:40 AM
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Dear Canum Malum,

«Any country that can not feed and house its population is over populated»

This statement is obvious, but far too weak:

Any country where those individuals, families or smaller groups who, for whatever reason, do not wish to integrate and be part of the prevailing society, cannot find a reasonable place where they can live peacefully on their own undisturbed by society, is over populated.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 1:16:35 PM
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right now with America in the hands of a fool,
Belly,
stop worrying about America, start worrying about the fool that wants to be PM here & horrifyingly, has quite a lot of supporters !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 3:42:14 PM
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Yuyutsu, would a benevlent Dictator do better?
Would firmly policed laws work
Do we want to end hunger, house people, health care education,are we concerned about war and murder in the middle east? south and north Africa
Asia?
As we humans are failing maybe at the cost of our freedom one world government can work

Indy believe me you do not know just how bad the west has become , weakened it is, because we can no longer rely on America
Your Trump is an isolationist
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:30:58 PM
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how bad the west has become , weakened it is, because we can no longer rely on America
Belly,
I think the West has been weakened by the Leftists ! They're the ones who interfered & sabotaged society by dictating to us how & what we can say, they took away the discipling of our children, they sabotaged education, they pushed SSM, they opened the borders, they perverted Justice, they perverted entertainment, they perverted News reporting, the list is endless !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:42:27 PM
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Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 1:16:35 PM

Dear Canum Malum,

«Any country that can not feed and house its population is over populated»

This statement is obvious, but far too weak:

Any country where those individuals, families or smaller groups who, for whatever reason, do not wish to integrate and be part of the prevailing society, cannot find a reasonable place where they can live peacefully on their own undisturbed by society, is over populated.

Answer- I agree that this statement is too weak and I would advocate a stronger position for a number of reasons but what I was attempting to do is present arguments in response to Belly's argument to establish principles based on analysis of case studies.

Overall Yuyutsu's position sounds reasonable- obviously I have my own views on the solution. Myself I prefer a stronger more decisive solution
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 5:52:49 PM
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indy please, you comment without seeming to understand what the issues are
Not looking to insult you but if I ever need advice it will not be from you
Have reason to doubt I will be around all that long but in truth know,not think, know, Trump is a shallow con man, his followers,uninformed
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 6:29:06 PM
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Hi CM,

So who has to go ? The elderly ? Since, i suspect, you're one of us/them, that's not likely in your World Dictator scenario.

Non-whites ? Those who breed up so fast ? How would you propose to get rid of them ? Africa is as big as four Australias, so it might need quite a few atom bombs.

By the way, with the world's population growth rate slowing down, it's likely that population keeps growing, to a large extent, simply because people are living longer, not so much because more babies are being born [see Runner about that dilemma]. World population looks like stabilising by the end of this century,

So, as living conditions improve in the Third World, as it used to be called, populations will rise for this reason alone, up to about 2100.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 6:32:13 PM
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In Answer To Loudmouth- Older people are not of child bearing age. I think we need to concentrate on turning off the human production "tap" on the bath of the Earth- rather than "bailing out the water".

As I've said in the past I prefer benign forms of population control over malign and Australia and the Traditional British Australian Culture has been fairly responsible. The Big Australia politicians perhaps should be goaled or gagged in the best interests of the future world.

I would favour a one child policy for Africa and India but they would need to address some of the failures in the Chinese situation. But it's not my or our decision it's their responsibility to manage their activities and the results of them- we need to hold them responsible for problems that spill over their borders. In the end it is their responsibility to act. If your neighbour brought rats due to their rubbish it would be their responsibility too if it affected you.

Median population projects year 2200 at 12 billion people as the maxima point- it could be higher or lower but will require decisiveness to achieve that. Not everyone is willing to take the commitment to solve problems- otherwise we would not be in our current situation.

Action and Thought is what creates our future- Ayn Rand.
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 7:21:38 PM
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Dear Belly,

What a bombardment of questions...

As I said, I believe those questions to be of a secondary nature, they are like aspirin, addressing the symptoms rather than the actual problem of overpopulation.

Nevertheless, let's have a look:

«Yuyutsu, would a benevlent Dictator do better?»

I suppose, so long as they remain benevolent.

What can we do if they lapse?

«Would firmly policed laws work»

Firmly policed laws can safeguard the supply of food, water and similar commodities that are necessary for survival, but they cannot support freedom, thus what's the point in surviving?

«Do we want to end hunger, house people, health care education,are we concerned about war and murder in the middle east? south and north Africa
Asia?»

The answers are mostly in the negative.
And the more squeezed we get and fearful over the loss of resources and our own survival, the more negative our answers become.

«As we humans are failing maybe at the cost of our freedom one world government can work»

But I wouldn't take the risk: currently if things become really really bad, then I can pack up and move to another country, but if the whole planet is one country - then where could I escape?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 23 April 2019 9:25:23 PM
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you comment without seeming to understand what the issues are
Belly,
Why, just because my comments don't put your beloved Labor onto a pedestal ?
Globalisation is the product of everything in an increasingly technological society. Leftists have had the most negative impact from mentality to the misuse of technology. They interfere in matters environment to economy, again in negative terms. They're a major cause of social disharmony through their preventing the disciplining of children by their parents. These social "experts" literally have blood on their hands yet they always put the blame on on those who actually care.
In my book the Left is simply sick !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 7:22:46 AM
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indy sorry mate but that comment does not make any sense
Yuyutsu yes we are in deep water here, not sure my views will make much sense to you but here they are
Think we share a basic, every human should be fed housed have health care and education, and equality
Now are we humans being hood winked?
Why can world powers and the UN end wars? why not fed house and educate all
Is there a dark reason for the very real mess this world is in?
One day eitherby war or contructed long term plans ,someone will offer one world government
People as the old slogan tellsus,will call it freedom
The divisions God and fear of difference brings may be a toy we are given to ensure we do not demand better from our leaders while they plan something evil
We without change are nolonger in chargeof our destiny
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 7:38:57 AM
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that comment does not make any sense
Belly,
Well, it does to the people I speak with & they all agree that the major component of the left is Labor/socialist/Democrat/Academic affiliated.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 9:36:23 AM
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indy are you aware some here are very close to being right of reality haters
Without other opinions being seen and heard the extreme right may take over these pages
I refuse to believe you truly think Labor is that far left
If I did believe it would force me to think you are from that right of reality group
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 11:52:30 AM
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CM,

Africa is as big as four Australias. Much of it is lush, and could be highly productive. Its population is half as dense (i.e. people/sq. km) as Europe's. But while many of its productive capacity is limited by inefficient technology and a shortfall in utility provision (water management, electricity, etc.) of course it will remain poor. Corruption throughout their political systems doesn't help either. A multitude of languages also impedes communication and administration.

In other words, there are many factors affecting Africa (and other 'developing countries') besides the rather pissy one of 'over-population'. If African countries could address these issues and overcome some of the problems, it could be the boom continent of the 22nd century. Our great-grandchildren could be choosing to migrate to Africa by 2150 and inter-marrying there.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 11:57:01 AM
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Loudmouth, there is a lot of positivity in your comment about Africa and it's possibilities.
I wonder though, given that you have outlined some of the pitfalls keeping Africa back, why is it, that they did not progress and rise to some higher form of self sufficiency?
If I were in a position of hunger and poverty as many are, I have seen ways of reducing these factors, with the simple resources available in their immediate surroundings.
I do not understand with such a large country and water must be available or they would be dead by now, then why have they not picked up a stick and made some furrows in the sand, drop in some seeds, which would have been saved from some previous food/vegetables, and tried to grow their own food.
The weather is amiable in most of Africa, and if it is not, in that particular location, then at least use the lands that would make it possible to grow food .
But surely a country so big as to cover ALL the climate zones has enough fertile land to choose from, that it can grow enough food to feed themselves and more.
I would like to know what political forces are holding these people back, and why?
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 12:48:35 PM
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Dear Belly,

Yes, I understand your views. I may not always agree, but I do understand them.

«Think we share a basic, every human should be fed housed have health care and education, and equality»

This noble thought comes from the heart.
In Yogic terms this is the fourth (anahata) chakra.

This is good because most commonly, people's thoughts are lower, motivated from inside their pants, so to speak: fear-for-survival from the first chakra in the rectal area; desire for pleasure from the second chakra in the genital area; and desire for control/power from the third chakra near the navel.

However, the fourth chakra is not the highest, there are three chakras above it: the fifth chakra around the throat area adds creativity and ingenuity to the often-naive pink energy of the fourth chakra, then the sixth chakra between the eyes (the "third eye") adds insight and wisdom. The seventh chakra in the top of our head then adds transcendence.

On the transcendent level we are indeed all equal, absolutely so, but on that level we also have no need for food, shelter, health or education.

On the level of the third eye we come to see people's previous incarnations, thus understand why they suffer unequally in this lifetime.

So let us for now attempt to raise our thoughts from the fourth to the fifth level, trying to find creative and ingenious solutions to help reduce human suffering. To do this it may actually help to mentally shift your attention from your heart area to your throat area.

It seems cruel to refuse help, but sometimes it is the more compassionate option. When those who operate from their second chakra and think from their genitals, learn that their offspring will be guaranteed not to go hungry or homeless and receive free health-care and education, they say "come to bed, Uncle Kangaroo will foot the bill". When most people do so, Uncle Kangaroo becomes very lean and starts eating the minority who think above their genitals. How fair is that?

[continued...]
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 1:17:30 PM
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[...continued]

So to make it fair and compassionate, government should announce: anyone born after 9 months from today (with exceptions for longer pregnancies for those already conceived) will not receive any benefits. No maternity leave, no housing help, no free health or education. Those conceived earlier will continue to receive the above.

«Now are we humans being hood winked?»

Yes.

«Why can world powers and the UN end wars? why not fed house and educate all
Is there a dark reason for the very real mess this world is in?»

Yes, while ordinary people are not discouraged from operating from their second chakra, the leadership operate from their third chakra, seeking power.

No compassion from their fourth (heart) chakra.
No ingenuity from their fifth chakra.
No wisdom from their sixth chakra.
Without transcendence from their seventh chakra, they remain selfish.

«One day eitherby war or contructed long term plans ,someone will offer one world government
People as the old slogan tellsus,will call it freedom»

False hopes, Belly, because world government would still operate from their third chakras.

«The divisions God and fear of difference brings may be a toy we are given to ensure we do not demand better from our leaders while they plan something evil»

People who operate from their first and second chakras are afraid to make demands on such leaders that operate from their third chakras, lest they be asked to raise their own level, and those who operate from their fourth chakra are too few in between.

«We without change are nolonger in chargeof our destiny»

Indeed, and change is not easy, it takes sacrifices, we need to conquer our lower nature.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 1:17:34 PM
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