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The Forum > General Discussion > Israel Folau

Israel Folau

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Just who the hell do they think they are.

Here we have a professional game, played mostly by a bunch of thugs, with an organising group who think they are god. I had to check which of the football codes the man played, I'm that interested but I am very interested in the organisation believing they have some right to intrude into the personal life & beliefs of a player, thug or not.

From his reported tweets Israel Folau is a moral man, worth a dozen of his fellow players. He is entitled to voice his moral opinion where ever he likes, & no employer has a right to interfere.

It is time to tell the people who control these sports they are not god. I hope Israel Folau sues their pants off for interfering in his rights.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 12 April 2019 11:01:38 AM
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Some good questions, and if you read this post and agree with Hasbeen you might be interested in signing this petition https://www.change.org/p/rugby-australia-don-t-discriminate-against-israel-folau
Posted by GrahamY, Friday, 12 April 2019 2:35:35 PM
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yep every bible believing Christian, every Koran believing muslim and many Hindus banned from playing football? I doubt it. Just Israel because of the hatred of Christophobes and those who reject eternal life. The true haters have shown themselves.

thanks Graham. Have signed the petition and made a small donation.
Posted by runner, Friday, 12 April 2019 2:53:59 PM
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Dear Hassie,

Israel Folau's right to freedom of speech should
be respected - but airing his views also comes
with consequences given he represents a commercial
entity - Rugby Australia.

His language was in bad taste and it should be
criticised, especially as he is popular and
influential to younger fans.

But to sack him? That's too heavy a punishment.

What would make an appropriate punishment? -
(as suggested by someone on the web) - give him some
community service coaching a gay rugby team
(such as Sydney based - Convicts).

That would be a project with the potential
to produce a decent redemption story that would be
more meaningful than anything else. And, what's to say
that Folau's eyes can't be opened and he can change
his views?

After all God works in mysterious ways - doesn't He?
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 4:03:31 PM
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'His language was in bad taste and it should be
criticised, especially as he is popular and
influential to younger fans.;

what Foxy, his appeal for people to turn from their sin and receive eternal life. Yeah very 'bad taste'. Had he been rejoicing in the fact that people rejecting Christ are going to hell you might have a point. THe Christophobes are out in force.
Posted by runner, Friday, 12 April 2019 4:14:52 PM
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Already in print defending this man
As is his right, he thinks he is working in the service of his God
Had he in fact [as I do] insulted that belief he would be protected by? free speech
Never, not ever,let PC control the right to free speech, will find the place to put my name in his defense
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 April 2019 4:21:15 PM
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Foxy you did not represent your library when you went home from work.

Why do you think this bloke is representing a football code when he goes home.

If they are worried about their reputation, they would be a dams sight better advised to chuck out the drunken louts, & the women abusers, rather than a bloke who may be a noisy Christian. I am not a Christian, but respect him for having the courage of his beliefs.

If they had minded their own business, football, I would never have been aware of Folau's post. Now they have come in with a heavy hand they have guaranteed that Rugby will never be on my TV or radio. I hope their advertisers realise this, Quants excepted of course.

I wonder how much of this has come from Qantas? I won't be flying with them either, as it is probable they had a hand in this.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 12 April 2019 4:42:46 PM
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Dear Hassie,

Folau is famous and popular and therefore his
views do come with consequences. He also does
represent a commercial entity - as I stated
earlier, and he is influential to younger fans.
Hence Rugby Australia were concerned about their
image and policy of "inclusion."

Anyway, not to downplay the impact this may have -
but honestly as someone wrote on the web - putting
things into perspective:

" Seriously, people getting upset by someone
they don't really know, saying they're going to a
place they don't believe in because of words in
a book written so long ago they haven't read,
by a mixture of people who are no longer around.
Absurd - right?

Chances are you wouldn't be upset by somebody saying
you would end up on Santa's naughty list for loving
another man and or woman.
Try to give this as much credence as you would that."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 5:49:41 PM
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cont'd ...

BTW: I was always very conscious of what I said
in public inside and outside the libraries I
worked in. I never risked saying anything that
would have placed the library system that I worked
for at the time - in an unfavourable light.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 5:52:54 PM
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and the number of rugby players still on the field after sexually assaulting women, cheating on their women, peeing in public places, having group sex, not fathering their children. Oh just don't mention Christ unless it is to curse!
Posted by runner, Friday, 12 April 2019 6:04:45 PM
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runner,

This may help get rid of your hatred:

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical-evidence/born_gay.html

I shall pray for you.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 6:12:36 PM
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cont'd ...

Oooops. My apologies for the typo. Here's
the link again:

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/born_gay.html
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 6:18:54 PM
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Said what he had to say, privately, on social media didn't he? What has it got to do with some tin football league? Nothing!
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 12 April 2019 6:24:00 PM
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Hasbeens description of the game and its players is a little of target
They call it the game they play in heaven
Its players largely, are the sons of cow cockys and the high paid legal profession union students too even university has teams
Tweed Jackets, elbows with the usual leather patch
However while not thugs, they play even in to their late thirties even early forties, it is a hard game but not as fast as the other rugby game
Nothing however change this point, if we are not free to say some things in time we will not be free to say anything
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 April 2019 6:32:51 PM
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Dear Belly,

There's surely enough hatred in this world
without further name calling, demonisation,
or the deliberate causing of offense and hurt
to other people. Surely we are civilised
enough to simply pull our heads in and
not condemn those that look and behave
differently to ourselves - all under the guise
of our "religious beliefs."

It reminds me of my early Catholic school-days
when Sister Mary Virgilius had us all convinced
that sex was bad (for one hour's pleasure we
would end up in hell). As somebody asked -
"Sister how do you make it last an hour?"

We were told that Protestants would never go to
heaven until they converted to Catholicism.
And the list went on.

So much for the teachings of supposedly holy
people.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 6:50:11 PM
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cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

By signing and accepting the $4 million that
Israel Folau did, part of the contract was
not putting anything on social media that may potentially
offend.

12 months ago he was hauled in and told, "Please
do not do that again, and he agreed to. He resigned
and then 12 months later has done so again.

Rugby Australia, has shown a bit of leadership
and decided that under their own codes this is not
acceptable behaviour.

Rugby Australia and the NSW Rugby Union have made
repeated attempts to contact Israel both directly
and via his reps since 6.30pm Wednesday and at this
point he has failed to communicate directly with
either organisation.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 12 April 2019 7:32:03 PM
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Dear Graham,

"Some good questions, and if you read this post and agree with Hasbeen you might be interested in signing this petition https://www.change.org/p/rugby-australia-don-t-discriminate-against-israel-folau
Posted by GrahamY, Friday, 12 April 2019 2:35:35 PM"

http://www.change.org/p/rugby-australia-don-t-discriminate-against-israel-fol

There you go, Graham, fixed it for you.

Getting rid of the "s" is an OLO thing (Oh!! How I have waited for this moment!!).
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 April 2019 9:32:46 PM
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Well, I almost fixed it; now I have.

http://www.change.org/p/rugby-australia-don-t-discriminate-against-israel-folau
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 12 April 2019 9:40:04 PM
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Foxy yes you're right,in fact had it been someone calling for rights for same sex couples on that page?
There is the problem, see he is not we are told, able to practice his faith as it calls for
He believes in his God
His God wants people to say the things that posted poster said
At the very least his contract should be paid out in full
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 April 2019 6:38:09 AM
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Thanks Is Mise. Signed. What a state post-Christian Australia is in! Shame. Shame.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 13 April 2019 9:36:05 AM
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If Folau had been muslim, his punishment would be a dinner with the PM
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 13 April 2019 10:40:38 AM
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If Folau was muslim and advocated stoning gays, it would have been OK.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 13 April 2019 10:41:26 AM
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Folau's comments were in poor taste and were bound to offend. Any public figure who goes out there and makes such statements is inviting criticism and ridicule.

However, it has nothing to do with rugby and his performance on the field. He should not have been sacked for simply expressing a religious view.
Posted by Bozec, Saturday, 13 April 2019 11:28:43 AM
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By signing and accepting the $4 million
that Israel Folau did - part of the contract was
not putting on social media that may potentially
offend. He was hauled in and warned 12 months ago.
He ignored the warning. And did it again 12 months
later.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 13 April 2019 11:54:40 AM
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May I? PC that grubby thing minorities try to inflict on us is behind this mans treatment
NOW before my ALP mates get involved [back a winner?]
The year Keiting was defeated a NSW wide meeting of all ALP members and the public if they wished was held
Mine was in Taree
John Dela Bosoca, a good man with a problem not his,
Asked this question
Why did Labor get beaten
Solid lifelong members of my party near to a man/woman said
We reject and want an end to political correctness, we still do
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:30:02 PM
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Whoa there folks.

Look I actually have a bit of time for Israel Folau, especially after he condemned Hillsong and Brian Huston for preaching a false doctrine namely the prosperity gospel.

But this is not so much about free speech but rather someone's right to withdraw their custom of a commodity. Professional rugby is selling a commodity and are those who advertise through it. I think it is a hard call to accuse those of withdrawing their custom from these commodities as attacking free speech. Then it comes down to a perception by the league and the advertisers of what damage to their brand will result from their continuing with such a controversial player. Those sums have been done and so Israel has been shown the door.

An equivalent situation is the National Anthem protests in the US involving most particularly quarterback Colin Kaepernick. He has been effectively shut out of the NFL for the stance he has taken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._national_anthem_protests_(2016%E2%80%93present)

The reason this has not been fully prosecuted given the free speech laws in the US, which are far stronger than ours, is because of the economic/contractual relationship between players and owners. None of the owners are obliged to buy what Kaepernick was selling.

There are those on this forum who will defend those owners, particularly because they were backed by strong rhetoric from Trump, but they can't have it both ways.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:31:31 PM
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No Foxy.

Rugby is at fault for accepting money from Qantas with obvious strings attached. That is the sin, first by Qantas for allowing the sexuality of it's senior executive to override the best interests of the company, & then the greed of the codes executives to accept that restriction to get the money.

It is totally disgusting that first Qantas is under such control, & second a football code management would kowtow to Qantas for the dollars it offers.

How long do you think it will be before Qantas & other such organisations will have gangs marauding the countryside removing bibles from libraries, churches & the like, because they don't like the ethics of a more moral age?
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:39:38 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

We voted as a nation to recognise gay marriage, this is not a fringe perspective.

Further I have certainly withdrawn my custom from companies sponsoring certain organisations. What you need to do is to stop flying Qantas and get others to do the same and see if the weight of it will get them to change their mind.

Good luck.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 13 April 2019 12:54:18 PM
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Steele,

"We voted as a nation to recognise gay marriage, this is not a fringe perspective."

No, we didn't, what was held was a postal opinion poll.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 April 2019 1:03:55 PM
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Belly, "Hasbeens description of the game and its players is a little of target
They call it the game they play in heaven
Its players largely, are the sons of cow cockys and the high paid legal profession union students too even university has teams
Tweed Jackets, elbows with the usual leather patch".

Yes it was once. Back in the mid 50s I actually played for a country team against the touring All blacks. We were mostly a team such as you mention. It even contain 3 of us school boys, as so few had ever played Union in the bush.

You can imagine how good we were. We played brilliantly actually. Yes they beat us, but only 103 to 9. Today such an Oz team would be mostly islanders, with very few leather patches to be seen.

A pommy mate once told me that soccer was a gentlemen's game played by thugs, & union was a thugs game played by gentlemen. Fits your description of years ago. I don't remember their 6'3", 15 stone Olympic runner winger being too gentlemanly as he ran over the top of me for the 5Th or 6Th time. Still he was very friendly after the game.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 13 April 2019 1:22:13 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

You wrote;

"No, we didn't, what was held was a postal opinion poll"

Lol.

Okay mate, what made this an opinion poll? The fact it was postal? Well that can't be it unless you say all those who send their vote in via the post for any election were not casting a true vote rather just sending in their opinion.

Or was it because it was optional? Well that can't be it either because that would deem Trump didn't win an election as voting is not compulsory in the US.

So you must have some unique insight into how this was only and opinion poll. Care to share it with he rest of us?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 13 April 2019 1:26:48 PM
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Hasbeen: "Here we have a professional game, played mostly by a bunch of thugs, with an organising group who think they are god."

Some pretty foul and seedy things happen in the rugby world but these are often tolerated or ignored by the governing body.

However, apparently expressing traditionalist Christian views - albeit crudely and provocatively - is crossing the line!
Posted by Bozec, Saturday, 13 April 2019 1:30:38 PM
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Just because the language used might have been in 'poor taste'; just because most of us would not say the same things - publicly at least - does not mean that this bloke hasn't got the right to air his opinion. There were no threats, no laws broken - just the pathetic, gutless and PC knee-jerking of a sporting organisation that has no more right to make judgements than anyone else. They employ him to play rugby, and apparently he does a good job of that. And, who judges what us or isn't 'poor taste'? Most people's taste is all in their mouth.

At least this man has the courage to air his views in what he would be well aware is a society hostile to his opinions. The very fact that he is a Christian puts him behind the eight ball in post-Christian Australia.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 13 April 2019 2:07:13 PM
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Hey folks,

Check this out:

http://www.mygc.com.au/the-real-reason-israel-folau-shared-that-post/

It puts en entirely different spin onto things.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 13 April 2019 4:10:11 PM
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and so now Foxy thinks Israel was warning people to escape hell so he would be sacked from the world cup because the Aussies were not going to win anyway. You are so good at judging people's motives aren't you Foxy?
Posted by runner, Saturday, 13 April 2019 4:50:38 PM
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runner,

Unlike you. I try not to judge anyone.
I merely provide information and let people
make up their own minds.

You should try it.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 13 April 2019 5:58:40 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Thanks for the link.

Not sure I agree its conclusions though.

Here is the Facebook page of the The Truth of Jesus Christ Church in Sydney. You will see it is mostly an Islander congregation and I do know how strongly the Islanders embrace Christianity, pretty fiercely in my book.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Religious-Organization/The-Truth-of-Jesus-Christ-Church-Sydney-592277641115135/

Israel is also shown giving talks to the youth of the church. His father Eni is listed as a preacher.

I think we have to accept that Israel comes from a culture which places family very highly. He grew up in a very rough area where going off the rails would have been very easy but a strict religious background has seen him flourish so him attributing his success to his faith is not without merit, especially as he has managed to avoid the pitfalls of many elite sportspeople in this country.
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/israel-folau-the-game-plan-20150821-gj4ksy.html

While I understand why he had to go I think the best of us can recognise him for who he is and wish him well.

Dear Hasbeen,

As a naval officer I am pretty certain that your sinning would have placed you on top of Israel's list as he puts drunkards like us above homosexuals and all the rest as those facing hell and damnation.

Bottoms up mate.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 13 April 2019 5:59:31 PM
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Dear Steele,

Christie Buckingham of the Bayside Church in Melbourne.
A Pentecostal like Israel Folau, wants to ask Israel
why he appears angry. She says that -

"In the current climate of distrust, polarisation and
simplistic sloganeering, I'd like to convince him of the
need for thoughtfulness and sensitivity to how his words
will be heard."

" Ïsrael's clodhopping use of the Bible with verses
ripped out of context and lists of "sinners" bound for hell without any sense
of the broader story - distorts the core message of the
text and its offer of abundant life for every person who
would accept it."

"Do his words draw people towards Christ or away from him?
Do Israel's comments attract faith conversations with people that
actually lead them into further inquiry about God and the
good news of the Gospel?"

"It is the kindness of God that leads people to repentance,
not judgement. The way of Christ is not the way of
condemnation."

" Israel should focus on the things that draw people towards
faith and not those that repel. He can do a lot of good for
the kingdom of God if he focuses his energy in that direction."

Perhaps Israel should have asked his father for advice before
posting.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 13 April 2019 7:13:51 PM
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Steele,

A real vote of the nation would have been a referendum and we all know how the alphabet group shied away from that.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 13 April 2019 8:21:00 PM
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Instead of spruking anti Christian hate speech on OLO an blog site, why doesn't the sick fox condemn those lovely peaceful Buddhist, responsible for decapitating Muslims in Burma.

Just saying.

Dan.
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 13 April 2019 10:03:56 PM
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Totally wrong SR. Never been drunk in my life, in the navy or the yacht club in Hobart or Rabaul.

I have always had things I wanted too much, a racing car, yacht or a house, to waste my money on grog, gambling or other such frivolity.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 13 April 2019 10:19:01 PM
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I saw Folau's post, he simply stated his beliefs, he never claimed that it was his desire that various sinners went to hell or threatened anyone personally. As an atheist that actively supported SSM, I find this intolerance disturbing.

I believe reading the SMH has a strong legal case against being dismissed on legal grounds. A multimillion dollar award against RA should reset their priorities.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 14 April 2019 8:37:24 AM
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maybe just maybe people like Foxy will stop being 2 faced after reading this

https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/?fbclid=IwAR3LYxsetQEGEd-JVDEd1y7V1zRP0n0RLFPI_VpcsiKkJoofVKeV-lmcRcA#K6VrM1KUTyzovXgv.97
Posted by runner, Sunday, 14 April 2019 9:25:38 AM
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Shadow Minister.

So you collaborated in your own subordination, now you regret it.

Instead if the learnered man you pretend to be, you are actually a willing porn in a porn star new age libertarian-enlightened social morality.

Under the banner of equality, the libertarians unleashed a laissez-faire substitute, and sold the pup through a marketing network normally reserved for trade and commerce.

In their world, homosexuality is the mast-head of equality. Having sold that as a pup, it is now arriving in maturity as a savage wolf.

I don't think your smart enough to recognise regrets!
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 14 April 2019 10:06:53 AM
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Diver Dan,

Violence is not new to the history of religions.
Christians and Buddhists also have a track
record of fanaticism, such as the bombing of
abortion clinics, and as you point out the
hardliner Buddhists in Myanmar.

Religious content may be a catalyst for violent
action, but it should be remembered that its
reading relies heavily on human interpretation.

What we need to do is avoid making assumptions
about what a religion might mean and instead focus
more on how the faithful live.

The enemy of peace is not religion, but those who
pursue acts of terror and violence against the
innocent in the "name" of religion.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 14 April 2019 12:21:57 PM
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Foxy,

Let's have an interpretation of this:

"Quran:
5,33. The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 April 2019 12:56:14 PM
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Is Mise,

There are just too many hard conclusions made
about religious texts, often made by those who know
less than they claim. Therefore with all due
respect - I suggest you go and get a proper
interpretation of the text in question from an
expert.

Religious content - and its reading
relies heavily on human interpretation. I would
hate to give you the wrong interpretation.

All I can politely suggest is that perhaps - rather than
listening to the claims and counter claims about
what the religion might mean, that instead we focus more
on how the faithful live.

The enemy of peace is not religion, but those who
pursue acts of terror and violence against the
innocent in the "name" of religion.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 14 April 2019 1:55:02 PM
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Foxy,

"Quran:
5,33. The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter."

Surely that translation is in plain unequivocal English; English moreover that any librarian should be able to understand
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 14 April 2019 7:46:33 PM
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Is Mise,

In order to understand any religious text - it needs to be
looked at critically in the context, and any other circumstances
and considerations, of the time in which the religious text
was written in order to be able to decipher its full meaning.

I professionally suggested what you should do to get the
correct interpretation of the text in question.

I can't help you any further.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 14 April 2019 8:00:16 PM
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Dear runner,

You wrote to Foxy; "maybe just maybe people like Foxy will stop being 2 faced after reading this"

Sure mate, let's see how two faced you are. Folau said in the piece you referred to;

"I fronted the cover of the Star Observer magazine to show my support for the Bingham Cup, which is an international gay rugby competition for both men and women. I believe in inclusion."

See that is something that you would never cordone in a million years. I can far more respect Israel's version of Christianity than anything you have shoveled up to us in all the years you have been splashing you hatreds around this forum.

Perhaps you could learn something.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 14 April 2019 9:36:52 PM
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runner good morning, how do I say this, we have swapped insults/words for a decade
Never understood you, but tended to think you a bit out there
You brief insults to such as Foxy, me, any one
Seems to be powered by the part of CHRISTIANITY that has its hands around that faiths throat
Right, bigoted, putting words and thoughts that never ever existed in that God's words
Are you convinced your bitter posts are in any way of any value to TRUE Christians
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 April 2019 6:16:57 AM
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Hi there HASBEEN...

The sexuality of the Qantas CEO is well known, the bloke disgusts me in every way possible. Least of all him being Gay. I can only imagine what many of his Flight Deck personnel think of him, as their overt representative.

We were repatriated back from overseas, by a Qantas 707. Those aircrews were so far from the current crop of Qantas executives, they'd be ashamed to admit they were part of the Qantas conglomerate.

A former mate and colleague of mine, who retired from the police, almost the same time as I did, was gay. After hearing some of the edicts and remarks attributed to this Qantas CEO, he was aghast and angry, to be cast among his kind.

Israel FOLAU has every right to articulate his personal views. Not that I necessarily agree with him, he does have that right. And Qantas with their gay CEO ought to get right out of Israel's face before Israel loses his composure and 'snot's' the idiot Qantas boss. 'Boss' what a friggin' laugh!
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 15 April 2019 12:37:38 PM
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Foxy,

The Koran is, according to Muslims, the word of God and is not open to interpretation, it means what it says and cannot be taken other than literally.

However, what do you think that the text quoted means?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 15 April 2019 1:08:43 PM
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'Perhaps you could learn something.'

what I learn more everyday is your hissy fits against the God you claim not to believe in Steelie.
Posted by runner, Monday, 15 April 2019 2:40:05 PM
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Is Mise,

Can't help you.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 15 April 2019 3:28:57 PM
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Was not sure I should post here again, did not want to upset o sung wo
We have as is our normal [please note past thread owner] drifted off subject
But I voted for Gay rights, but too once thought just like o sung wo
Now I did not vote to make it compulsory, or to turn my local in to a Gay bar
BUT I joined in this thread, BECAUSE I saw a threat to? free speech
Not a believer, not near Gay, but certain things like the right to be different, seem best to me
At the very first Sydney Gay Mardi Gra, I was far far away, a mate of mine was kissed on the lips by a marcher, he, if others had not held him back, would have shot that person,
RIP Bert, all round good bloke great country Sergeant of police, at that time a younger me would have shot him too
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 April 2019 3:45:59 PM
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Flying Virgin is the best way to deal with Qantas and the leprechaun.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 15 April 2019 4:26:46 PM
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Hi there TTBN...

Spot on my friend, Virgin's a far superior Airline to Qantas. Qantas has an enviable safety record no doubt, together with exemplary flight deck crews. As does Virgin Airlines I'm sure. It's the CEO of Qantas; I reserve my strongest aversion for. How dare he turn Australia's national airline, into some Gay rights forum, as he seems to do, at every opportunity
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 15 April 2019 4:46:57 PM
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I've only flown Qantas once recently and had not flown with them for some 40 years, I simply didn't like their attitude to passengers and my recent flight only confirmed my previous experience.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 15 April 2019 6:57:04 PM
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FOXY,

"Can't help you."

That is blindingly obvious!!
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 15 April 2019 7:01:46 PM
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Is Mise,

You're so perceptive!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 15 April 2019 7:15:30 PM
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-15/george-pell-guilty-verdict-coverage-media-contempt-case/11002760
With respect this link has everytghing to do with the thread
Free speech, like freedom to report, is a plank of freedom itself
No one should ever be stopped from reporting, or talking,about any thing
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 5:30:35 AM
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No one should ever be stopped from reporting, or talking,about any thing
Belly,
It is this very freedom that brought us to where we are now, in a massive mess !
Of course freedom of speech is vital but not when it is insidiously out of context.
Take Q & A for example. That ignorant Greens sheilah last night publicly accused the Liberals of complicity to fund donations in their policy making.
That alone should be sufficient to sack Trivioly for allowing it !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 9:23:39 AM
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And the behaviour of Senator James McGrath
was so "Liberating?"
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 10:53:26 AM
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indy that bloke is an idiot, every question asked deserved an answer
THINK about this, if we lived only by your thoughts and ideas, mine too for that matter what a sick world it would be
Different note FRANCE, what a great country!
As one of the worlds most important monuments burned that great Nation sang in the streets in honor of that great place Vive La France
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 12:42:27 PM
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that bloke is an idiot, every question asked deserved an answer
Belly,
If that's the case then what were the others ? Trivioly let the twit on her right waffle on yet she constantly cut down the only one who made sense ! All she concenytrated on was to corner the Liberal, nothing else mattered to the silly git !
I wonder if she actually knows the meaning of integrity.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 9:50:31 PM
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indy have you ever sat quietly and questioned your views
I have, even mid post have said is that right
QaA was informative for me
That silly rude man? he was and is every thing that makes me a LABOR man
Foolish uninformed bigoted, and not truly showing anything that would make him worthy of a seat in parliament, well maybe in the toilet block but briefly
And?
Most, on every side, who saw him that night are unimpressed
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 7:29:05 AM
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Folau looks to be fighting his sacking on revelations that RA did not include in his contract anything about what he could or couldn't say on social media.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 11:35:32 AM
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By signing and accepting the $4 million that
Israel Folau did, part of the contract was -
not putting anything on social media that may
potentially offend.

12 months ago he was hauled in and told,

"Please do not do that again." And he agreed not to.
12 months later he's done it again.

Rugby Australia has decided that under their own
codes this is not acceptable behaviour.

And as Rugby Chief Castle explains - "He's not
being punished for his religious beliefs."

"This is not a religious discussion, this is a
discussion around the employee - employer relationship
and the values and contractual arrangements within that
agreement - that's the basis on which we've served
him a breach notice."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/folau-ignored-my-warning-says-rugby-australia-chief-castle-20190415-p51ee3.html
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 12:06:32 PM
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-17/israel-folau-challenges-rugby-australia-breach-notice/11025196
Pay the mans contract out in full or know dropping him is a breech of his rights to think and say what he wants to
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 4:22:08 PM
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QaA was informative for me
Belly,
Of course it was for you but how about filling the room with all One Nation Supporters & any other non-Left & see how you'll go. Q&A is nothing but an ALP propaganda & Feminist to boot machine !
I can just imagine your opinion if Q&A were held in a country town, away from their academic vertebrae.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 5:43:39 PM
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Of note in this case is the hypocrisy which stems from a (nearly) all-encompassing condemnation of Folau whereas, were his religion Islam, we would only be hearing from the Islamophobic Right. I think it is now a well-observed phenomenon that in the Abrahamic family only one member’s intolerance can be safely critiqued with the approval of broader society.
Posted by Ahenobarbus, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 5:56:51 PM
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individual,

Too right!
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 17 April 2019 6:01:29 PM
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Folau is to be sacked because the beliefs of his particular church and faith leads him to hold views about homosexuality that conflict with the left-progressive culture in which ‘diversity’ demands that we all think the same way about sexuality and gender.

The freedoms we took for granted as citizens of a liberal democracy — such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of conscience — are being stripped away by militant progressives who insist we all believe and behave in the same way.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 18 April 2019 10:43:15 AM
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ttbn,
I don't disagree with your sentiment of militant progressives, but I think this outweighs them, if you allow it.

Let’s put something into perspective here: Folau isn’t just condemning homosexuals to hell if they don’t repent, he’s condemning atheists and idolaters, which in reality means every non-Christian. This is a great swathe of society being unfairly targeted with a, frankly, stupid and juvenile threat. Further, from the earliest days of Christianity violence and repression entailed the Christian zealotry of enforcing mosaic law, the same thing which inspires Folau. Hint: classical antiquity did not just all happily convert willy nilly. Behind today’s ‘warning’ of fire and brimstone is a history of destruction and murder. This is a largely forgotten history which is only just starting to re-enter academia.

Now none of you would – and rightly so – tolerate a Muslim ranting on about the desired conversion of infidels – a conversion that, if it is not enacted, will be met with subjugation or outright elimination. As far as I can see, a Muslim doing such a thing currently ranks higher on the scale of legitimate concern because of the existence of very real violence carried out by segments of Islam. However, we have to seriously ponder if an increased and heightened rhetoric from Christian fundamentalists is slowly marching towards a radicalised platform. Christianity is beyond doubt a waning influence in today’s Western world: will the remaining adherents adjust their behaviour accordingly as a ‘us and them’ worldview becomes more and more pronounced?

It seems like the more diverse society becomes in its myriad forms, the vaguer freedom of speech becomes as an acceptable arbiter when the line between innocent if obnoxious speech and desired intent mends the distance between its hitherto established boundaries
Posted by Ahenobarbus, Thursday, 18 April 2019 11:45:51 AM
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Ahenobarbus,

The issue is one of denying of freedom of speech - not what Folau said, which you might or might not agree with.

'Gay' politician, Tim Wilson, has today defended Folau's right to express himself as he did, although he obviously would not agree with the sentiments expressed. We should accept other people's opinions, which means not carrying on like cut snakes every time somebody expresses an opinion we don't like. But, that's what the Left is doing -they believe in 'diversity' unless it goes against their dogma.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 18 April 2019 1:38:27 PM
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We are of course entitled to our opinions in all
matter of things.

However when we sign contracts
and agree to the terms of those contracts and after
several warnings we still break those contracts,
and agreements -
we con't really object to having a breach issued
against us - and claim that our religious freedoms
are being impinged.

This is not about religious
beliefs. This is about the employee-employer
relationship and the values and contractual
arrangements within the agreement that we signed and
agreed to and then broke - which is the basis of
the breach notice.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 18 April 2019 1:53:34 PM
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'However, we have to seriously ponder if an increased and heightened rhetoric from Christian fundamentalists is slowly marching towards a radicalised platform'

I don't think you need to worry about the Christians Ahenobarbus as the marxist left have a total monopoly on violence, killing unborn babies, intolerance and rebellion. Groups like antifa and getup hide behiond masks and then virtue signal to veryone else. Bible believing Christians simply present the view of the God you seem to deny. They are no threat to you as I am sure you know. A 'radicalised' Christian will simply tell you the truth as Folau did.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 18 April 2019 2:01:59 PM
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runner,
True enough I don’t fear for my life from Christians at the moment. I’m simply saying there is an antecedent for violence in the religion and further radicalisation might spur it ever closer to tangible violence, and part of that process can begin with incendiary speech. In fact, we already see it with anti-abortion bombings and shootings. It’s no exaggeration to say many sectors of society are becoming increasingly isolated and prone to extremism, and faithful Christians (not lukewarm progressive ones) are getting pushed into a corner. I’m not being biased here with Christians; we see the same thing with, like you say, Antifa.

I’ll repeat what I said above:
It seems like the more diverse society becomes in its myriad forms, the vaguer freedom of speech becomes as an acceptable arbiter when the line between innocent if obnoxious speech and desired intent mends the distance between its hitherto established boundaries
Posted by Ahenobarbus, Thursday, 18 April 2019 2:24:31 PM
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'In fact, we already see it with anti-abortion bombings and shootings.'

Really Ahenobarbus

I must have missed that news. When in Australia did this last happen? Those killing the unborn would be far more comfortable than your run of the mill peaceful anti abortionist.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 18 April 2019 2:51:38 PM
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It's a bit like the 'Same-Sex Marriage' debate. Many agreed, as I'm sure many disagreed, as the debate rolled on? Really it's just a person's opinion after all. And that was precisely what Israel FOLAU had uttered, his own opinion, and nothing more.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 18 April 2019 3:26:47 PM
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runner,
In 2001
Posted by Ahenobarbus, Thursday, 18 April 2019 5:43:37 PM
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Well, I have to agree with Foxy's observations on this.

Israel crossed the line here, and, given his earlier warning in this regard, can only be assessed as doing so knowingly - even if he was coerced or influenced to do so by some undeclared agency or some irresistible 'urge' to declare and expound this 'gem' of his 'faith' or of his 'calling' to enlighten others.

He had a contract, he broke the covenant, he suffers the consequences.

Does his mistake compare with that of others in the 'game' who abuse their wives/spouses or other female (or male) 'acquaintances'? I think not. But, inclusiveness and acceptance of diversity have been rightly embraced as key aspirations of the game's image - particularly in view of some notable instances of vile behaviour on behalf of some of sport's participants, and of some spectators as well. (And, did not a post on this thread point to Israel's glowing remarks in support of tournaments for gays and female competitors?) Hypocrisy?

'God made MAN in his own image.'
(And, despite what some troglodytes on this forum might think, mankind is entirely comprised of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, in all its configurations - black, white, red, yellow and brindled.)(Sincerely mean no offence to any by this description.)
'God is infallible'. (So, obviously, gays, etc, are all welcome.)
'God is LOVE.' (Surely needs no 'translation'.)
'Turn the other cheek', 'Do unto others', 'Love thy neighbour'. (What? Only when it suits? Please, be real!)

Israel Folau has been misled by 'narrow' teachings, and that is unfortunate (and outdated), but he is not alone in this, and some others must be held complicit in perpetuating such 'narrowness' and therefore should be found 'wanting'.
A great guy from all accounts; sadly fed an old, sad, unenlightened load of codswallop.

Pay out Israel's $4million contract? You must be joking. But he should be allowed to change codes (if he agrees to 'behave').
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 19 April 2019 3:19:59 AM
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Is Mise,
Please let's not conflate this with comparisons with Islam. Not the issue.
Want to talk about Christchurch? or America? or Buddhists in Myanmar, or Bosnia, Kurdistan/Turkey, Kashmir, Rwanda, Israel and the Golan?
'An eye for an eye', and we all end up blind?

Posted by Ahenobarbus, Thursday, 18 April 2019 2:24:31 PM:
"It seems like the more diverse society becomes in its myriad forms, the vaguer freedom of speech becomes as an acceptable arbiter when the line between innocent if obnoxious speech and desired intent mends the distance between its hitherto established boundaries."

Freedom of speech has bounds, whether we like it or not. (See Discrimination.)
(And, IMHO, 'hate speech' should be a crime.)

Peace, Brothers and Sisters.
(And, Runner, what about women's rights to choose. Are you sexist?)
(And gw and evolution are non-science, myths, or a conspiracy? Do you know the Earth is not flat, is 4 Billion years old, and Man did not coexist with Dinosaurs - except current ones.)
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 19 April 2019 3:20:07 AM
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Dear Foxy,

Thanks so much for the welcome back on david f's Trump thread, and sorry I neglected to respond earlier. My head is not always where it should be.
I really didn't think I would hang around, and my misgivings about the virtues of 'staying' are constantly being reinforced by the myriad host of codswallop and misdirection or bigotry being served up by so many of the usual suspects (and quite a few new ones).
However, here and there I still find myself unable to hold my tongue.

I do enjoy and respect your contributions, Foxy, as really quite foundational, well considered and researched, and honest to a degree only rarely found elsewhere on this forum.

It's great to see you still charging in, and standing tall. Very refreshing. Please keep it up, and all the very best.

I am sorry that Hassie seems to be getting quite crotchety these days. Certainly not the way I remembered from earlier times. Hope he's doing ok.

And Belly certainly seems to be hitting his straps and in great form.

There are other notable conveyors of insight, but raking through the detritus by some others can certainly be taxing.

There is still some enlightenment to be found, fortunately, so congrats to OLO on its 20th Anniversary, and hope the good work may continue in good stead.

I do miss a few of the old players, but I guess we have to expect some to lose interest, as I have done myself for quite a while.

I also think it a pity that our politicians and some others with influence do not appear to visit OLO, as they might well gain some much needed insights - if they could get some minion to sort through the chaff.

Be well Foxy, et al, and keep safe.
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 19 April 2019 4:12:13 AM
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It has been a good thread, my defense of the man is based on his rights to believe in his God
He does you know,and believes in every thing his God wants him to say
Yet I believe in no God
This morning, SMH two men, not in my view nice men, Muslim by faith,have told us Australian law has no hold on them
They in my view, are in the wrong country, but I truly question myself
See I can not find a way to support their right to free speech
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 April 2019 6:49:59 AM
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Belly,

I can support their right to free speech, without them talking we might be deluded into thinking that Islam can co-exist with western civilization.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 19 April 2019 7:44:28 AM
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Dear Saltpetre,

Thank You for you kind words and it is good to have
you back. It has been a long time on OLO - and we have
seen people come and go. I miss many of them but
equally I still value the diversity of this forum
and find that I am able to continue to learn and grow.

Have a lovely Easter break - and I look forward to
your future contributions in the many discussions that
lie ahead.

Take care.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 19 April 2019 9:37:42 AM
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Dear Foxy,

Here is where I am struggling a little. If it was a particular club which has an owner said they didn't want to be associated with Folau's views on homosexuals I think they would be perfectly within their rights to terminate a contract due to commercial considerations.

I'm not sure how easy I am handing that kind of power over to a body deciding the Australian representative squad. To have them that beholden to commercial interests does not sit well to me. They do not own the sport but rather are its custodians. To have made a judgement on bringing the code into disrepute might have been different though I'm not sure whether it could have been fully warranted.

But to assert as they did that it would impact sponsors therefore Israel needed to go is really problematic and something I do not agree with.

We both recognise the harm his actions can cause given his wide social media presence even if he feels his faith gives him licence to do them. And I fully understand the League's well intentioned and commendable push for inclusion, but that was not the messaging they gave to Israel, instead it was all about sponsor and public backlash. If they were their overriding reasons for giving Israel his marching orders then they do not have my support.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 19 April 2019 10:01:08 AM
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You Folau haters would have enjoyed last night's story about the grotty hamburger joint's depiction of Christ "hammered" at Easter, smoking a cigarette and holding a can of beer. And the fact that 11 Christians are murdered every day of the year must give you great comfort.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 19 April 2019 10:18:27 AM
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ttbn,
Sorry, but those two events don’t compare at all. The former is a gaudy but harmless image and the latter are continual massacres.
Posted by Ahenobarbus, Friday, 19 April 2019 12:22:51 PM
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Hi there HASBEEN my friend...

May I depart, right off your Topic here; and wish everyone on OLO - A very 'peaceful' and 'Holy' Day ('Holy' for some) on this Good Friday, 2019. One of the most significant & meaningful days in the Christain Calendar, even for me, an atheist.

Thank you HASBEEN.
Posted by o sung wu, Friday, 19 April 2019 1:06:49 PM
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Dear Steele,

The Guardian, April 17, 2019, tell us that :-

According to the code of coduct which Israel
Folau agreed to and signed, players must -
"use social media appropriately, treat everyone
fairly, and with dignity, regardless of gender
or gender identity, sexual orientation, and must
not bring you, your team, or rugby into disrepute."

We're told that whether something constitutes a
low or high level breach depends on whether the
action was intentional, whether the conduct -
"caused offence to the general public's sensibilities
and caused reputational damage to Rugby Australia, breached
the "core value" of discipline and respect and other
factors."

Rugby Australia's Chief - Castle has said that Folau
"was warned formally and repeatedly about the expectations
of him as a player for the Wallabies and NSW Waratahs with
regards to social media use and he has failed to meet
those obligations."

In April last year Folau made a similar post that said -
"God's plan for gay people was hell." Rugby Australia
had issued him a warning but took no disciplinary
action.

Last week Castle said - "Whilst Israel is entitled to
his religious beliefs, the way in which he has expressed these
beliefs is inconsistent with the values of the sport.
Israel has failed to understand that the expectation of him
as a Rugby Australia and NSW Waratahs employee is that he
cannot share material on social media that condemns,
vilifies or discriminates against people on the basis of
their sexuality."

Israel Folau has notified Rugby Australia of his intention
to contest a "high level"code of conduct breach notice,
with the matter set to head to a tribunal hearing.

It will be interesting to see what the result will be.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 19 April 2019 2:08:06 PM
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cont'd ...

Dear Steele,

Rugby Australia will now make arrangements with the
Rugby Union Players'Association (RUPA) to bring
together the Code of Conduct Hearing.

The governing body has said Folau committed a
"high level"breach of the professional players'
code of conduct, and had ignored formal
instruction not to make any social media posts that
"condemn, vilify, or discriminate against people on
the basis of their sexuality."

Both are potentially grounds for termination of the
player's contract - which he signed and which was due
to run for 4 years.

Rugby Australia gave Folau 48 hours to decide whether
to contest the finding that he breached the code of
conduct. He's decided to do that and it will now go before
a code of conduct committee. The committee has the
power to decide whether Folau committed a breach and if
so whether it was a "low, mid, or high level breach."

The burden of proof will be on Rugby Australia to prove
the breach, and it will be determined on a "balance of
probabilities."

According to the code of conduct the Committee must have
at least 3 members, one of whom should be a lawyer or
a former judge.

Interesting times ahead.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 19 April 2019 2:18:26 PM
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Dear Foxy,

So ....... in future, in order to gain employment, it may become standard that people sign a form attesting that they will not express their beliefs, and thereby exercise their freedom of speech ?

Anything else people might have to give up in order to keep their jobs ?

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 19 April 2019 3:01:13 PM
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Few here will share my love of NRL but it has a contribution to make in this discussion
See Hasbeens description in post one, about thugby will sit better if it is tagged to my game
For a few years not so bright big heads have bought the world down on their heads
Right now three ex internationals, including one great player from my red v team
No support from me for any sex offender
The sport has barred two from playing until they face court
Others dropped forever before court
Court for my bloke is 12 months away
IF he is guilty ok by me
But what if he is not? has the sport the right to end a champions paying life? income?
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 April 2019 4:22:19 PM
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Dear Joe,

Contractual agreements vary
with each organisation - so unfortunately I
really cannot predict what each organisation
will have as part of their employee-employer
contractual agreements. Those will be between
the employers and employees to agree to and
what they entail will also be up to them to
sort out.

Regarding Israel Folau's case - and any further questions
that you may have - I'm sure that Rugby Australia
would be only too happy to answer them for you.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 19 April 2019 4:33:49 PM
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Dear Foxy,

I think there is a problem.

These are Israel's own words;

"As you have probably read, last week I met with Rugby Australia chief executive Raelene Castle and Waratahs general manager Andrew Hore. During the meeting I told them it was never my intention to hurt anyone with the Instagram comment, but that I could never shy away from who I am, or what I believe. They explained their position and talked about external pressure from the media, sponsors and different parts of the community, which I understand.
I acknowledge Raelene and Andrew have to run things in a way that appeals broadly to their executive, fans and sponsors, as well as its players and staff. It is a business. I didn’t agree with Bill Pulver taking a stance on the same sex marriage vote on behalf of the whole organisation, but I understand the reasons behind why he did. After we’d all talked, I told Raelene if she felt the situation had become untenable – that I was hurting Rugby Australia, its sponsors and the Australian rugby community to such a degree that things couldn’t be worked through – I would walk away from my contract, immediately.”

The relevant quote is “ talked about external pressure from the media, sponsors and different parts of the community”. It was not about bringing the game into disrepute as is now being asserted.

This is rather pivotal and to me the change speaks to a recognition they were on shaky ground. Is upsetting sponsors bringing the game into disrepute. I would think not.

So what it will come down to is whether the restrictions placed on Israel were legal, enforceable to the extent of a dismissal, and in keeping with the role of a governing body of a sport rather than a private corporation.

Should some one be denied the right to represent their country because of the manner they employed to prothletise their faith?

Not convinced I'm afraid.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 19 April 2019 7:14:35 PM
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Dear Steele,

The burden of proof will be on Rugby Australia to
prove the breach. It will be interesting to see
what the tribunal hearing decides.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 19 April 2019 7:51:50 PM
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Good point Joe. You must not discriminate against a job applicant on the race, colour and the rest, but it's OK to discriminate against an employee who doesn't express the 'right' sentiments popular at certain times in history.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 19 April 2019 11:12:47 PM
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Me too Joe.
Posted by Canem Malum, Saturday, 20 April 2019 12:53:36 AM
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The problem for Rugby Australia is that while a contract is generally sacrosanct, breach of contract requires reasonable grounds and while the twitterati might consider Folau's post hate speech, a judge might decide very differently.

If RA loses the court case, not only will it have lost one of its best players, but will have to stump up for the rest of the $4m contract and court fees as well. With the very expensive loss by James Cook university, they would be well advised to consider their options.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 20 April 2019 8:46:36 AM
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SM,

I don't think that Rugby Australia - being a commercial
entity is too concerned about the money involved.
This is about the employee-employer relationship
and the values and contractual arrangements within
that agreement.

It will be interesting what the tribunal hearing decides.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 April 2019 11:11:49 AM
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Ttbn & CM,

Christ, now I'll be tarred as an Alt-Right for sure !

Hi SM,

If Folau's citing of passages from the bible is now 'hate speech', what would it be called if a Muslim player waved a banner saying 'Behead all those who insult the Prophet' ?

Of course, a Muslim player should be free to point out the Koranic position on all of those on Folau's list - that would be his right to freedom of belief, BUT if he advocated, rather than merely observed, what was written in the Koran, then he (or less likely, she) may have gone beyond, to the point of incitement to violence, which would be a criminal offence under Section 18 (c) or whatever.

Or maybe I'm not allowed to point this out ?

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 20 April 2019 1:48:28 PM
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Loudmouth,
You'll upset Bill Shorten, Di Natalie & Hanson-Youing if you keep insisting on stating the truth !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 20 April 2019 2:15:21 PM
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Dear Joe,

Folau's clod-hopping use of the Bible with verses
ripped out of context and lists of "sinners"
bound for hell without any sense of the broader
story - distorts the core message of the text and
its offer of abundant life for every person who would
accept it.

If he wanted to reach people with his religious views
and draw them towards faith he would have done much
more good for the kingdom of God if he focused his
energy on what would draw people toward faith and
not on those things that repel. It is the kingdom of
God that leads people to repentance, not judgement.
The way of Christ is not the way of condemnation.
He should have focused his energy in that direction.

However his religious views were not why Rugby Australia
issued him with a breach notice. It was because he broke
the terms of his contractual agreement.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 April 2019 2:21:20 PM
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cont'd ...

I'm sure that the same contractual agreement would
have applied to any of their top players - be
they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, of Jew -
if they to breach their contract and were
to behave in the same manner as Folau did and go
against the codes of conduct that they had agreed to
signed in their contractual agreement.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 April 2019 2:26:51 PM
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Foxy,

"However his religious views were not why Rugby Australia
issued him with a breach notice. It was because he broke
the terms of his contractual agreement"

It was because he upset the homosexual boss of Qantas.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 20 April 2019 3:24:46 PM
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Foxy,

You still don't get it. An employment contract is far more complex than a normal business contract. All sorts of factors come into play, including "the common good" of which one aspect is preserving a person's ability to ply his trade. For example, people in sales normally are bound by restraint of trade agreements which in the event of them leaving the business, but is limited by law to a reasonable distance and time, and any contract that tries to exclude someone from working in their profession too broadly for too long without an exceptional reason is not worth the paper it is printed on.

RA is attempting to ban Folau from all rugby codes throughout Aus in perpetuity. The chances that a judge might not consider this just cause are strong, and RA and moreso its executives probably wouldn't survive a $6m settlement.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 21 April 2019 7:57:29 AM
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Is Mise,

Rugby Australia has more than just one sponsor.
And it appears that most of them agree with the
stance that Rugby Australia took.

SM,

I'm sure that Rugby Australia does have a team of
legal advisers who would have told them what they
can and can't do - prior to the contractual
agreements being drawn up. And they are still
advising them. So your concern is admirable. However
I would not worry too much. I'm sure they know what
they are doing.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 21 April 2019 9:05:28 AM
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I wonder if Folau is getting a kick back from the lawyers who will be getting a motza from his simple social media message, which could have been ignored by the disapproving, and forgotten in a couple of days by everyone, if it hadn't been for politically correct, pants-peeing Rugby Australia, swapping it's obvious role for that of social arbitrator. Our society gets sillier and sillier.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 21 April 2019 11:40:01 AM
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Foxy,

I'm sure that James Cook University had a plethora of competent lawyers to advise them before they got knocked for six for firing a professor in similar circumstances and are now facing $ms in court fees and damages.

Let's see whether the lawyers advising the "tribunal" are happy to toss the dice on such high stakes.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 21 April 2019 12:05:15 PM
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Conspiracy Theory.

Ever thought that some lawyers give advice that lets their mates make a killing; less 'expenses' to the party of the first part.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 21 April 2019 12:55:39 PM
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"Was Folau in breach of his employment contract? Whealy’s response: “It seems likely there is no specific provision in his contract prohibiting him from expressing publicly his religious convictions.” This has been my argument all along and, following The Daily Telegraph’s discovery that Rugby Australia attempted to have it inserted retrospectively in his contract, it looms as doubly important. Ask yourself this: why, if a standard players’ contract was sufficient to ensure Folau did not post anything offensive on social media, did Rugby Australia make a last-minute attempt to change the contract?

Whealy poses the question of whether the comments Folau made about homosexuals were in fact homophobic. Did he make the comments not out of hate, as Genia maintains, but out of love for them? He doesn’t want them burning in Hell. This implies, of course, that Folau assumes homosexuals are capable of changing their sexuality, just the way black people can convert to white whenever it suits them."
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 21 April 2019 1:47:11 PM
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He could change his name to Palestine Folau & all would be forgiven !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 April 2019 3:33:26 PM
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Jesus or Christ Folau would be a better choice.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 21 April 2019 4:28:19 PM
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Soon the world will tire of Christian bashing gays.

I see the lovely friendly Buddhists are at it again in Shri Lanka. 140 dead Christians.
(A change from murdering thousands of Muslims). Oh those lovely (non) religions of peace and tranquility.

That should make Alan Joyce extremely satisfied with things.
Maybe free flights to Shri Lanka on Quantas for gays and Buddhist, to wave rainbow flags, and spin prayer wheels at Christian burials.

And maybe a game of Rugby as a bonus.
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 21 April 2019 9:43:26 PM
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Dear diver dan,

You write;

“Soon the world will tire of Christian bashing gays.”

What revisionist, victim shifting bulldust.

Christians have been bashing, murdering, jailing, ostracising, discommunicating, gay people for two bloody thousand years and now you are claiming to be the victims? What a crock.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 21 April 2019 9:52:45 PM
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Is anybody reminded of the Roman Empire?

Maybe Israel Folau could be crusified at the next Qantas board meeting.
No lions to do the cleaning up these days either.
What about packs of "gay" dogs. Dogs are always hungry!
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 21 April 2019 10:01:31 PM
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Foxy,

I think that my post above shows that Folau's contract does not specifically forbid his tweet, and any attempt to fire him will cost RA a motsa.

The latest round of massacres of Christians clearly shows that Christians are the most persecuted religious group around the world. Even I as an atheist can see it.

I can't wait to see IF's barristers tearing RA a new one. It's time for this fawning virtue signalling to end.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 22 April 2019 5:54:34 AM
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So now....SteeleRedux thinks the age old proven system of reprisal, is a great idea worth defending on moral grounds...
Welllll....so do I actually.

Dan.
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 22 April 2019 11:09:30 AM
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SM,

Here's the "competent" judge involved in the JCU
case:

http://www.afr.com/business/legal/could-salvatore-vasta-be-australias-worst-judge-20190225-h1bp1k

I'm sure that the tribunal hearing for Rugby Australia will
do a better job - having more than just one person on the
panel. Also I hope that JCU does appeal.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 April 2019 11:56:29 AM
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I can't wait to see IF's barristers tearing RA a new one. It's time for this fawning virtue signalling to end.
Shadow Minister,
Do the ABC/SBS first & then RA !
Posted by individual, Monday, 22 April 2019 12:41:13 PM
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On what legal grounds?

However, it seems that Judge Salvatore Vasta who made
a judgement on the Peter Ridd cas and James Cook University
faces the prospect of a parliamentary inquiry on his
fitness to remain on the bench with the Law Council
saying it was considering action after a series of
"troubling"judgements.

It will be interesting to see what the tribunal hearing
finds in the Folau case.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 April 2019 1:45:29 PM
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Foxy,

What I find troubling is your double standards. First you declare the jury decision in Pell trial sacrosanct in spite of a series of jury decisions being recently successfully appealed, and there being several questions as to the process and evidence even by left wing newspapers, yet you are happy to call into question the verdict of a judge on the basis of a single newspaper column?

If you read the judgement

http://www7.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/FCCA/2019/997.html

The basis of the judgement is very clear and simple.

There are two documents in this dispute,
1 - The Enterprise agreement that governs the employment of all university staff and in particular clause 14 which deals with intellectual freedom, and ,
2 - the code of conduct

Every single point that PR has been disciplined on is where these two documents conflict.

Since in court the University has had to agree that the EA takes precedence, they have no grounds for dismissing PR.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 9:49:15 AM
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Shadow Minister,

Perhaps the following link might help:

http://www.desmogblog.com/2019/04/18/judge-peter-ridd-james-cook-trial-not-climate-science-freedom-speech
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 10:18:22 AM
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cont'd ...

Shadow Minister,

The link I've given you tells us that - in an
article in the Australian Financial Review, the
newspaper's legal affairs editor Michael Pelly
asked in February, "Is Salvatore Vasta Australia's
worst judge?"

Pelly was revisiting what he described as "withering
denunciations"in appeal courts of 3 of Judge Vasta's
findings. Pelly has also reported on the "prospect of
a parliamentary inquiry in Vasta's fitness to remain
on the bench over concerns about his judgements.

If JCU is considering an appeal its lawyers may consider
that according to Pelly Judge Vasta has been "overturned
on appeal at least 15 times" since he was appointed in
2015 by then Attorney-General George Brandis, a conservative
politician.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 10:36:35 AM
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Foxy,

Firstly, I don't think that you will find a single judge that has not had a few judgements overturned on appeal.

Secondly, even 15 successful appeals is still small percentage of judgements where 95% have not been modified by the appeal court.

Thirdly, an inquiry into the judge has not been initiated and is largely conjecture on the part of Pelly.

And finally, it is clear that you have not read the judgement or even the conclusions for if you had it would be obvious that the judgement was based on the contractual details where the EA holds precedence over any other internal regulations or "codes of conduct".

However, the clause 14 in the EA that overrode the charges against PR were entirely about the extent of Intellectual freedom that the professor was entitled to so the claim that the case was not about intellectual freedom is somewhat disingenuous.

As to how this applies to Folau, that RA subsequent to the signing of the 4 year contract with Folau, tried to add a clause w.r.to social media strongly implies that the contract is silent to this behaviour. If Folau has not ratified this and not directly broken any contractual agreement, RA has only two options, one let him continue to play, or pay out the $4m contract and let him go.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 11:44:08 AM
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