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The Forum > General Discussion > Western Civilisation - the beginning

Western Civilisation - the beginning

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Foxy,

Fun fact.

"In Italy Rome expelled its kings in the same year (509 B.C.) "

In 390BC a Gaulish army under Brennus first defeated Rome and then occupied the city for several months. The city was utterly sacked and pretty much all its records were destroyed.

After regaining the city, the Romans set about rebuilding knowledge of their past. Since they had, essentially, a clean slate, they could order past events as it suited their needs.

At the time Athens was the most famous and admired city in Europe. It is pretty certain that these Roman 'historians' wanted to elevate their city by claiming that they achieved their Republic before Athens, by a few months.

The best research I've seen suggests that the overthrow of the monarchy probably happened a decade later.

It doesn't matter in the least since either way the Roman Republic was formed around that time. But I always find it interesting and a reminder that information from that period can be rather opaque. Its another example of why the other invention of Athens, - contemporary recording of history - as begun by Herodotus and brought to glorious fulfilment by Thukydides, is so important and yet another brick in the construction of Western civilisation.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 7:23:41 AM
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Dear mhaze,

Strewth mate, I supplied quote after quote to make my case yet all you come back with is a load of unsubstantiated opinion and innuendo reading like one of Jordon Peterson rambles. You know the ones, where he steps outside of his field of expertise and pontificates at length with tenuous links and over-hyped perspectives. None of what you put really challenged any of my major points did it. Come on mate, you can do better.

By the way the Athenians who you hold in high esteem took an interesting approach to the Island of Melos.

“The Siege of Melos occurred in 416 BC during the Peloponnesian War, a war fought between Athens and Sparta. Melos is an island in the Aegean Sea roughly 110 km (68 mi) east of mainland Greece. Though the Melians were of the same ethnic group as the Spartans, they chose to remain neutral in the war. Athens invaded Melos in 416 BC and demanded that the Melians surrender and pay tribute to Athens or face annihilation. The Melians refused, and after a siege the Athenians captured their city, slaughtered the men, and enslaved the women and children.”
Wikipedia

This allowed Thucydides to write the Melian Dialogue in which he contended "By subjugating the Melians the Athenians hoped not only to extend their empire but also to improve their image and thus their security. To allow the weaker Melians to remain free, according to the Athenians, would reflect negatively on Athenian power". So it other words it would put the frighteners up everyone so slaughtering a people who wished to remain neutral was justified.

Thus was born the realism school of thought. Are we seeing a common theme yet?

Tell you what, here is a neat little lighthearted summary the position I put to Foxy. Go at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-mkVSasZIM
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 8:50:53 AM
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Poor old SR,

So desperate to get one up on me after being humiliated so many times. Oh mhaze likes Athens. Therefore SR must hate Athens. Let's go and find something in Athens's long history that's not exemplary and pronounce that to be evidence of their evil. And let's white-wash Persia.

If you doubt what I said about slavery in Persia as described by Herodotus then go read his Historia. I can't be bothered looking for something that you'll ignore anyway when it shows you to be wrong. Or Xerxes whipping his soldiers. Or the Eretrian slaves. Instead you go off and find some quotes that met your prejudged notions and proclaim them conclusive. They're not. You should note that Wikipedia shouldn't be relied on over issues like this since it can be easily manipulated by partisans. Reading Herodotus would do you the world of good.

No question that Melos wasn't Athens' finest hour. We've covered the debate previous on OLO. Again just taking a small quote and your standard 30 second 'research' doesn't give the full flavour of the issue. Without suggesting that what Athens did was justifiable, appreciating the full situation makes it understandable. What they did was at the extreme end of punishment for fallen foe. But it wasn't unprecedented. Athens at the time was in a life and death struggle with Sparta and they were of the view that treating the Melians in this fashion would quell other rebellions. Again, not justified but understandable.

This was a very different world. You don't seem to get that.
You should also note that while Melos and other 'crimes' were happening, Socrates was running lecturers, the plays of Euripides and Aristophanes were being staged, statue art was being perfected, the notion of written history was being invented, the Acropolis was being completed and so much more. But you wouldn't have come across that in your 'extensive' research.

I'd urge you to read Thukydides to understand the fuller story here. Its one of the great works of European history. But it does take rather longer than 30 minutes.
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 9:49:05 AM
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Dear mhaze,

You wrote; “So desperate to get one up on me after being humiliated so many times.”

Lol.

Whenever you lead with statements like this I know you are struggling mate. It's okay, take a deep breath and try and come back with some decent arguments instead.

And saying you aren't going to give any references because “I can't be bothered looking for something that you'll ignore anyway when it shows you to be wrong.” it usually a pretty strong indication the cupboard is bare.

You saying;

“You should note that Wikipedia shouldn't be relied on over issues like this since it can be easily manipulated by partisans. Reading Herodotus would do you the world of good.”

Translates to 'rather than reading something that could be potentially bias go read something that clearly is'. And why wouldn't it be, written as it were from a victor's perspective.

You then opinine;

“You should also note that while Melos and other 'crimes' were happening, Socrates was running lecturers, the plays of Euripides and Aristophanes were being staged, statue art was being perfected, the notion of written history was being invented, the Acropolis was being completed and so much more. But you wouldn't have come across that in your 'extensive' research.”

That has been exactly my point. The elbow room for such highminded fare came from the idleness of an elite whose rarified existence came from the exploitation of a vast numbers of slaves.

The Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution came from the pens of a slave owning class. Granted fine sentiments, noble causes espoused, some of which have become features of Western thought, but it was off the scarred backs of a brutally subjugated and enslaved people.

Look I'm not arguing about the worth of the fruits, only about your woeful mis-charaterisation of “The victory of the Hellenes was about a victory of one freedom loving society over another freedom crushing society.”

It might be central to your narrative but it sure as hell isn't supported by history. Try again.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 10:16:39 AM
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Dear Steele and mhaze,

It's been ages since I've really thought about Ancient
Greece. I studied the history of the theatre and the works
of Aeschylus, Sophocles, Euripides and Aristophanes.

When I think of Ancient Greece images of the Golden Age
and the way Greek culture has influenced Western
Civilisation come to mind.

Without Ancient Greece - without certain concepts such
as democracy, theatre, architecture, the grand stories
of the mythological heroes, we would surely be the poorer.
Most of us are generally fascinated by all that Ancient
Greece accomplished.

The presence of slavery was a daily fact in Ancient
Greece. Perhaps it was because of the fundamental
role of slavery that Ancient Greeks came to value
individual freedom so much.

It appears that Ancient Greek society did not seem to
share our concern against human exploitation.
Slavery was accepted as a normal institution - as
Aristotle explained.

There was a large slave population in all the
Ancient Greek city states - they were a useful part
of the economy of Greece at the time. To argue the
topic of slavery in Ancient Greece - I would have
to delve deeper into those times.

Which is something that at present I don't really have
the time to do - with Easter around the corner.

However, this is a fascinating topic and I shall be
reading your posts with interest. Such a pleasant
change from the usual political in-fighting.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 2:11:17 PM
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cont'd ...

Just a thought - if we look at the relatively
recent history of certain powers in Europe -
slavery further expanded with colonisation.

Just saying.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 16 April 2019 2:26:21 PM
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