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The Forum > General Discussion > BAD SMELL from BASS HILL Religious Deception.

BAD SMELL from BASS HILL Religious Deception.

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OK.. Before Pericles gets his knickers in a knot, and begins to berate me for bullying Muslims, this is an important social issue which should concern us all.

IT WOULD BE THE SAME concerns if the party involved were Hindu, Christian, or Calathumpian.

In this particular case, however, it involves Muslims.

I tried to do a discussion on Shambo the Hindu Cow in UK, but it was rejected by Graham.

PROBLEM.

1/ Some surplus land was sold by Bass Hill Highschool for residential development....i.e. residential housing.
2/ A group called 'Garden View Apartments' purchased the property within these guidelines. "residential housing".
3/ The major shareholder in Gardenview Apartments is now Al Amanah College.
4/ Al Amanah college has applied to Council for the establishment of an Islamic school for 1200 pupils on the site zoned and sold for residential housing.
http://www.theexpress.com.au/article/2007/07/17/1990_news.html
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22062893-5006009,00.html
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/lc/qalc.nsf/18101dc36b638302ca257146007ee41a/bc88034ed2fa37bfca25722f001bb5b9!OpenDocument

This is a re-run of the Baulkham Hills Prayer Hall fiasco, but this time, residents may be better equipped on the issue.

QUESTIONs.

1/ Should the College be allowed to establish a school there ?

2/ Do 'core values' of any religion 'matter' when councils consider such applications. For example, if this was the Ananda Marga sect, would council approve it?

My views on this issue are probably sufficiently well known by now that I don't have to repeat them.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 3 August 2007 1:41:06 PM
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better a moslem school than hillsong or exclusive brethren. and if bd is deceived by the application, perhaps god is on the moslem side this time. sry, bd, only the pope is never wrong. except when he changes his mind. or argues with you.
Posted by DEMOS, Saturday, 4 August 2007 2:48:10 PM
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Hi Demos.. well usually I find myself in agreement with you, but not really this time.

I would not prefer a Hillsong or an EB church there either on the same basis. This Islamic college seems to have used subterfuge to get this far.

No organization should deceptively and manipulatively seek to advance it's cause.. that aslso applies to evangelical Christians.

Given some of the core values of Islam, it surprises me that you would take this tack.

cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 4 August 2007 6:09:33 PM
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Boaz
Do you mean Bass Hill Sydney? Thats near chester hill? Western subs
Look I think its got to the stage now we all need to build Multi Culture Schools.
I cant see any advantage what so ever for Muslim people to segrigate themselves from the rest of Australia.
[ I would have liked to see your thread on the S Cow. Pity Graham would not run it.
The reason I am saying its not a good idea to keep opening Muslim Schools is not that I am anti muslim either.

Its just that I honestly beleive its in THEIR interest to be seen wanting to mix more.
I understand their counter argument would be- Well everybody elsehas their own seperate schools.

Thats True. However Muslims are the ones under preshure to show they ARE prepaired to mix and I just cant see how its going to work to their kids advantages to seperate them from the other kids living in the area.

Perhaps the Government needs to introduce some bill to stop ALL schools from putting up even more barriers between our young cits mixing working and playing together.

I think a seperate school is a bad idea and very unfair on ALL the kids.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 5 August 2007 3:13:19 AM
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i think private schools are a crime against children.

but in a society that tolerates religious schools, muslims are entitled to theirs as much as anyone.

as far as fooling bd, and others, it's a shame they could not make open application, but enough bigots are visible on this site to make it clear why they thought it necessary.
Posted by DEMOS, Sunday, 5 August 2007 8:11:29 AM
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"IT WOULD BE THE SAME concerns if the party involved were Hindu, Christian, or Calathumpian."

Strange then that we are not seeing threads in a similar vein originated by BD where the party is christain?

Actions speak louder than words.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 5 August 2007 8:16:19 AM
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Hi Rob... well if you can point to an example of 'Christian' deception of a similiar nature, I'll speak just as loudly against it.... cheers.

DEMOS.. fortunately you are welcome to your opinion. It's just a bit of an odd one :)... 'child abuse' ? To me,... teaching children that there is 'nothing' to believe in is the worst form of child abuse availlable, because that destroys them at the soul level.
It takes away hope....and without hope we are all doomed.

I'll make one comment for the sake of Roberts point, I don't believe Fred Nile is on the right track with the "Christian" democratic party.
I don't believe in 'Christian' political parties, though I strongly believe in Christian lobby groups.. thats just democracy in action.

Demos..back to you. "IF" this was the Ananda Marga sect rather than Muslims, or.. National Socialists, or.. 'Fred Phelps' of 'dancing on the graves of dead gays' infame.. and HE wanted to set up a school for the indoctrination of young 'phelpsian' children... and grow his ideology in Sydney, you would have no objection ? Be honest now.
http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Fred_Phelps

I was watching this morning a documentary on drug adddicts in Afghanistan. The reporters said of 2 brothers who were the focus of the doco "They were given a special treat after registration at the de-tox centre, a Mullah from the Mosque came to give them "spiritual guidance" where upon he (The Mullah) told them TURN OR BURRNNNNNNNn basically..He just told them of the PUNISHment which awaits them if they keep taking drugs.

Contrast this with the Teen Challenge movement began by Nicky Cruz, former gang leader where people are loved back to normality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Challenge
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 5 August 2007 9:25:26 AM
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Boaz, if you are going to anticipate a reaction from me, I would prefer you to anticipate it correctly.

>>OK.. Before Pericles gets his knickers in a knot, and begins to berate me for bullying Muslims, this is an important social issue which should concern us all<<

You have described a perfectly normal bait-and-switch activity that goes on in development applications every day of the week, in every council in the land.

The only reason you have picked this one is because of its Islamic content, we all know that. And I for one was perfectly happy to let you witter on about it in your usual sensationalist style until it faded away.

But true to form, you turn a dispute over land use into a diatribe against Islam. Again.

>>"They were given a special treat after registration at the de-tox centre, a Mullah from the Mosque came to give them "spiritual guidance" where upon he (The Mullah) told them TURN OR BURRNNNNNNNn basically..He just told them of the PUNISHment which awaits them if they keep taking drugs. Contrast this with the Teen Challenge movement began by Nicky Cruz, former gang leader where people are loved back to normality.<<

You just cannot resist, can you?

You started the thread ostensibly to complain about acquiring land under false pretences to set up a school, fair enough. It happens all the time, for all sorts of reasons, but fair enough, complain away.

But at the very first opportunity, you dive into your standard whack-a-mozzie routine.

The "important social issue" is the fact that you don't see how your behaviour can encourage even more people to stand up to your bully-pulpit tactics.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 5 August 2007 9:51:55 AM
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Thanks Pericles. I had a feeling that Boazy's recent attack of tolerance would turn out to be temporary.

Actually, on reading the articles I don't think that the 'bait and switch' was directed towards the council (presumably the land is already correctly zoned for a school) but towards the State government, the prior land owner.

I don't suppose we can expect anytime soon to read an article from Boazy exposing shonky dealings by Christian organisations (e.g. Hillsong)?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 5 August 2007 10:40:54 AM
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CJ Morgan, we may get that article if we can track down a christain organisation doing a similar deception. Now we have just got to find a christain organisation that has done a similar bait and switch in that council area :(.

But then if we do find such an example then they won't really be christain so it won't count. They can be exposed as not really being christain (BD's thread some time ago back on a cult claming to be christain) wheras when muslims get caught doing the wrong thing that's just further proof of how bad their faith is.

Dealing with this stuff is almost as frustrating as dealing with HRS and his anti feminism crusade.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 5 August 2007 11:11:54 AM
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Amen to that, R0bert!

Cheers mate ;)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 5 August 2007 11:26:32 AM
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Pericles... actually no, that was not my 'first' opportunity to 'whack a mozzie' as you put it.. I've had lots which I could have chosen. It was purely an issue of timing, I happen to be watching this morning, and thats what I saw.. it fits in with the 'values' issue that has been the theme here.. and I see fit to include it.

Tolerance..does not mean being uncritical. Or.. does it ?

Pericles.. it surprises me you know.. Kactuz went into 'mega' diatribe mode, posting 3 HUGE postings in a row, all directly mocking or at least showing some of the silly things found in Hadiths etc.. yet.... I don't see any berating of him from you ? any reason ?

Robert.. if you can find evidence of any HILLSONG deception.. I'll bite it big time...
As Pericles KNOWs... I ripped into WORLD VISION like a pit bull, and then ..EVEN THEN.. Pericles took the defensive, STILL berating me for criticizing a 200k salary package (which Pericles himself uncovered and publicized) for a man who himself criticized anothers 160k package.... c'mon guys.. I can and DO criticize 'Christian's, Muslims.. or Hindu's...or Buddhists.

It so happens, that I am more critical of "Islam" because as I understand the faith and it's history, it represents a danger when in the hands of those who use it as a sledge hammer against non Muslims.
The plight of Arab Christians in Palestine being a very recent case in point. The primary difference between 'Christians' using the faith as a sledge hammer and Muslims, is the recognized difference in scriptural foundation. (as agreed by Logic) i.e. you can connect Islamic radicalism to the Quran and Mohammad, but you cannot connect such things to Jesus.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 5 August 2007 7:22:47 PM
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One can easily understand the BASS HILL Religious Deception by Muslims because it is taught in their religion to lie for allah.

“The deception in Understanding Taqiyya--Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah”
http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm

Muslims do not respect laws from a secular state when it (civil law) contradicts Muslim (Shariah) law.

"When it is a question of Islamic law, justice is in the hands of every Muslim." Ayaan Hirsi Ali (ex-Muslim)
http://www.islam-watch.org/AyanHirsi/My-View-of-Islam.htm

Experience shows that it is very tough dealing with the lawless tendencies of Muslims. In a condominium (in Malaysia) illegal structures were built on common area because it was claimed that these structures were prayer rooms.

Even in a secular country in SE Asia where Muslims are in a minority, vehicles are illegally parked on a Friday in vicinity of mosques causing massive traffic jams. Their excuse is that they are performing a very important duty as good Muslims while the rest of the non-Muslims have to put up with traffic jams every Friday.

We can only pity the residents in Bass Hill. They will be having a perpetual headache dealing with their holy lying and their excuses for being lawless.
Posted by Philip Tang, Monday, 6 August 2007 11:22:21 AM
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Boaz, David

I agree entirely with you. I find it very strange that soon as the "Muslim" word is spoken or written you have to agree with everything that is said or written or you are considered a racist. Of course the "Muslims" lied that's what they do.
It's up to our state governments, local councils and the environment court to make sure that when applcations are made by any developer that local laws, bylaws are well covered.
Also, it seems to me that residents must be allowed to comment on developments and to stop developments that are out of character with an area, no matter what the development is.
Councils need to be vigilant and be prepared to stand up for the residents.
Posted by MARVAL, Monday, 6 August 2007 11:56:15 AM
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Well... either the area is zoned for a school or not. Isn't it irrelevant what kind of school we are talking about?
All that is necessary to know is: the size of the school, how it will affect traffic around that area, the noise associated with a school, etc.

Whether it is an Islamic or Christian school should be nobody's concern.

I'm not sure if we need to express our opinion of how good or bad a religious school is for kids (and the world!)- but since others have expressed their opinon I'll add mine: I'd have to agree with Demos, CJ Morgan and RObert, also with PALE.

Teaching children ABOUT most world religions would be best, but indoctrinating children into one "right" religion is very numbing to the mind. Why should children have to be drilled into accepting the religion of their parents? Perhaps they want to choose their own, of none at all. It would be good, as PALE says, to have multicultural schools only and get rid of all these divisive religious schools.

Division creates hatred especially when it comes to religion as most religions are intolerant of other religions.
Posted by Celivia, Monday, 6 August 2007 1:17:52 PM
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"To me,... teaching children that there is 'nothing' to believe in is the worst form of child abuse availlable, because that destroys them at the soul level."

David, how about teaching children that there are actually good people right here in the world that have no religious persuasion at all and that these people work tirelessly for the benefit of mankind, that their work can be a shining beacon and something to believe in?
How about teaching children that religious instruction is actually a form of brain-washing and that's one of the worst forms of abuse since it deludes the brain-washed person into thinking that an imaginary being called 'god' will take care of you when the nasty Mossies, Nazis, Hindu or non-believers come to pollute their "souls."

And speaking of souls, what's happened to you to make you believe that a body actually has a "soul?" I don't happen to believe in any such thing. We're all essentially reptilian brained creatures with a smattering of our own beliefs and worldly experience tossed in for unreliability. If it doesn't wake up to this fact very soon (if not too late already), humanity will plunge over the edge of the survival and sustainability cliff. It's a pity that after death, there's no way they'll ever be able to stop and think........"Hmmm. All that religious stuff was a lot of nonsense!"
Posted by Aime, Monday, 6 August 2007 1:36:17 PM
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Hi all.. well.. shopping done.. family picked up.. now..time for 'debate' :)

Ok.. let me try to address a few specific points.

One major issue pointed out by Celivia who said:

"Well... either the area is zoned for a school or not. Isn't it irrelevant what kind of school we are talking about?"

HONEST ANSWER REQUIRED here.. Cel.. IF...this was an Ananda Marga, or a Neo Nazi school, would it bother you on the grounds of 'values taught' ?

AIME made fair points also, from her world view. But that's all that can be said. In her, and in me, for example, there are conflicting world views, but let me add, they are not conflicting in any way other than that which a democratic process can resolve.

TEACH KIDS "ABOUT" RELIGION rather than 'one' religion is right.
Yep.. fair enough, this is a responsibility of State, (in terms of informing students) but.. this school is not of that kind, it is a private 'Islamic' school and will be teaching its students:
a) Islam is the ONLY right religion.
b) In the process, they will undoubtedly study the Quran, which inevitably will lead to a study of Surah 9, and 'that' is the killer chapter ...literally.

It is argued by some, including FH, that this call to 'fight' non believers until....(what?)...is simply a reflection of a time of war and military threat. Ok.. this is something which should be argued on the evidence, not on wishful thinking.

IF.. 9:29 meant "fight those who fight you" it would be more reasonable for it to read as follows:

"Fight back against those who do not confess Allah and the Last day, until they leave you alone in peace", but the reality is a call to fight them UNTIL they become "Muslims" OR.. are humiliated and subjugated, and pay a tax.

Now.. no amount of spin will change this. I'm happy to examine so called 'expert' opinions on this. So, if anyone finds any, please provide a link.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 6 August 2007 4:59:05 PM
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Yes David, we do seem to have opposing views and hopefully without malice, however I do back you on this one. Mind you, I don't care what religion it actually is, anyone who uses unscrupulous tactics to gain control over local council administration deserves a good kick up the backside.

Ananda Marga David? Hmmm. That brings back a few memories. Back in the 70's I shared a flat with a female member of the Anada Marga sect. She said they got a bad rap from some bombing or something of the like. I didn't know what it was about at the time, nor did I care, but I wouldn't have thought it was a religious group. She was one of the first people I ever witnessed that seemed to be perpetually stoned, but I suppose those who wrote certain parts of the bible must have been smoking something pretty damned good:-)
Posted by Aime, Monday, 6 August 2007 8:20:21 PM
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Hi there Aime :) yes of course we differ without the slightest malice whatsoever.

One of the Muslims supporting the school said this on the Bass Hills Future Web site:

http://www.basshill.org/comments.php?side=Against%20Construction&PHPSESSID=ffb8dc892cf5783a2a8e664e5a2f3338

"My kids are in the OC class and doing quite well. I'm just sick of all the negative comments about this school taking place. It's people like you that make me physically sick. VOMIT VOMIT VOMIT. GO AND GET A LIFE."

She was referring to a person named 'Knight' who is against the school.

So, lets just hope she (who claims to be an ordinary Muslim) is not typical of those who live in the area.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 6 August 2007 9:57:40 PM
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BD, because we (are supposed to) live in a secular state we should be neutral and not discriminate against one religion to favour another. I wouldn’t want to discriminate against any religious school that does not interfere or harm the freedom of others. I don’t know much about Ananda Marga but if that school does not harm the freedom of others, then yeah if the area is zoned for a school, they have as much right as any to be there.

Neo Nazi schools would be banned as they are a racial hate group. We would not tolerate a KKK school either for the same reasons. Both harm the freedom of others.

Note that I rather see no particular religious school at all for the reason that children should not be indoctrinated into the religion of their parents.
I hope one day all schools will be neutral and may teach about all the world religions- where children learn about their history, their beliefs; compare religions, learn to analyse them etc.
What if we had schools that promoted one of the political parties? What if there were parents who send their children to a Liberal party school, or a Communist party school, where they are told that this is the only right political party and where they will be given biased information?
The same thing should go for religious schools: there shouldn’t be any, preferably.
But while they are here to stay let there be neutrality.
Bring it on, all the religious schools are welcome, the nuttier the better as long as they stick to the curriculum.

As for “…it is a private 'Islamic' school and will be teaching its students:
a) Islam is the ONLY right religion.
b) In the process, they will undoubtedly study the Quran, which inevitably will lead to a study of Surah 9, and 'that' is the killer chapter ...literally. “
But wouldn’t a private Christian school do the same, study the Bible including the violent parts and tell the kids that this is the ONLY right religion?
Posted by Celivia, Tuesday, 7 August 2007 9:21:16 AM
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Hi Celivia

a Christian school would teach the following:

John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by me"

So, yes..it would be teaching Christ as the only way of Salvation.

Now.. what ELSE would it be teaching ?

"Violence in the Old Testament" ? yes.. absolutely BUT..."not" as an example to follow, NOT as something which is a legitimate part of Church Growth practice, NOT as anything else BUT "What God commanded at ONE place, ONE time, for a SPECIFIC purpose and reason" ie.. as 'history'...not as doctrine.

It would also be teaching how Jesus told Peter to put his sword away when Peter tried to defend Jesus.... how he said "My Kingdom is NOT...'of' this world"

I've had 3 yrs at Bible college and 8 yrs as a missionary and I can confidently say that there is NOTHING taught which suggests Christians should act violently against non Christians. Absolutely....nothing.

Now please read Surah 9:29 and 30 from the Quran. Please.. read them C A R E F U L L Y. serious
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

Once you have read that... LOOK at this... a Hezbollah production...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjhtVAKAdE&NR=1

notice what they say.. "al maut.. al maut.. al maut Israel"
DEATH...DEATH.. DEATH TO ISRAEL.
This...is 9:29 in action in 2007

I challenge ANYONE to show me anything even mildly resembling it from the Isaeli government against Arabs/Muslims/Hezbollah/Hamas.

Remember that Sheikh recently in the Age "We are all Hezbollah supporters" (true or false..he still said it)

PS I would CRITICIZE any Christian school which did the same as this Islamic college.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 7 August 2007 10:18:04 AM
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Actually, this thread is a good argument for the removal of government funding to religious schools of any persuasion. Obviously, one element of the Muslim school's planning would be its projected budget, which presumably anticipates a large slab of government money by virtue of policies that favour private schools. Without this funding, it's likely that the Muslim school would be financially unviable. And if governments funded public schools properly instead of propping up elitist private and dodgy religious schools, then they wouldn't have to sell off Education Dept land.

Also, I must point out Boazy's typically dishonest 'strawman' argument concerning neo-Nazi schools - quite simply, they don't exist (unless, of course, you count the cadet corps that are still maintained at some elite private/Christian schools).
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 7 August 2007 2:42:23 PM
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Boaz, please can we agree on one thing: if you start a thread, will you set an example to all and stay on topic?

You have once again used a local social issue to springboard into yet another of your whack-a-mozzie rant sessions.

>>I've had 3 yrs at Bible college and 8 yrs as a missionary and I can confidently say that there is NOTHING taught which suggests Christians should act violently against non Christians. Absolutely....nothing.<<

Then why is it that - despite the teachings - Christianity has been used so many times in the past and present as an excuse for violence? Could it be that people ignore the peaceful bits, and simply latch onto the bits they want to believe in?

Usually, these are the parts that say "I am right, you are wrong", which inevitably lead to fisticuffs, and more. So there is little point in drawing attention to the differences in tone and presentation, Boaz. You are still left with your core proposition that "there is only one religion: mine".

And when you add a whole string of inflammatory stuff on the end of this challenge, you are bound to create violence, aren't you?

As an aside, looking at the content of the Bass Hills Future web site that you directed our attention to, one thing is crystal clear.

http://www.basshill.org/comments.php?side=Against%20Construction&PHPSESSID=ffb8dc892cf5783a2a8e664e5a2f3338

The area desperately need a school that teaches spelling and grammar.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 7 August 2007 3:18:20 PM
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Pericles said regarding religion...

"I am right, you are wrong", which inevitably lead to fisticuffs, and more...

"inevitably" ? not at all. Let me just say that if people allow Christ to control their minds, wills and hearts, the same will be for them, as it was to Peter who was told "Put your sword away" by Jesus.

Nothing more really need to be added to that.

On the spelling of people on the website.. yep.. agreed, but irrelevant.

Pericles, before you make a repeat of your 'violence and Christianity' 'whack a Christian' rant, please ensure that you can support it with evidence of precedent and precept from the New Testament, which is our foundation.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 7 August 2007 10:18:17 PM
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For such a learned Biblical and Quranic scholar, Boazy seems to have difficulty comprehending written Rnglish.

Pericles clearly wrote "Then why is it that - despite the teachings - Christianity has been used so many times in the past and present as an excuse for violence?"

Boaz would have us believe that such well-documented events as the Crusades, Inquisition, the Conquistadors' invasion of parts of South America, the Catholic vs Protestant 'troubles' in Ireland etc etc etc have nothing to do with the Christianity in whose name they were conducted.

As I said before - garbage.

What did I say about Boazy reverting to Islamophobic form?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 6:55:33 AM
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CJ Morgan, the evidence you refer to be would be rather inconvenient for Boazy so it's better ignored. Far more useful to stick to selected portions of the bible as a foundation (and ignore the foundation under the new testament) and ignore the reality that some christains have managed to use that same book as a justification for violence throughout history.

I had a great response organised for Boazy re Hillsong on the weekend and lost it due to a computer crash. I must revisit it again. I'm still trying to find out if the investigations into the issue with indiginous housing was finalised and if so what if any political inteference occurred. Some commentary I saw suggested that the issue was being hushed up. The Indiginous times had an interesting piece on it but I've not found anything recent.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 7:49:09 AM
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BD, I’m glad that Christian schools teach about salvation etc; I hope they teach religious tolerance and peace also.
Have you ever been inside an Islamic school and looked around?
I doubt very much that an Islamic school would teach that the hatred shown in the Koran is the right way to live.
It wouldn’t surprise me if these school children of Muslim parents would be taught about integration and the values about peace and tolerance.
Free choice is an inherent part of our democracy, and if there are schools to cater for the needs of the Christians in our democracy then we also need to provide options for other religions.

If you had been born in one of the Middle Eastern countries you would be as fanatic a Muslim as you are a Christian.
Who do you think will assimilate easier in Australia: the child of Muslim parents who immediately feels accepted and respected, or the child that is told its parents’ religion is wrong, unacceptable, and violent?
As you probably know better than I do, religion can be such big part of someone’s life that a person can identify with their religion. Reject someone’s religion and it feels like you are rejecting the person.

Either get rid of all faith schools in Australia or accept that there must be a place for all. I agree with Morgan on the funding for religious schools. One of the EB schools is running a tyre business- I wonder whether they’re even requested to pay tax on their profits.

continued
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 8:40:34 AM
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I believe that if the Koran should be open to reformation or revision then also should the Bible.
Both are in need for an update.

Even in the NT, doesn’t Jesus tell people who have the urge to steal or have stolen to cut off their hands, and that people ‘with a wandering eye’ should rip out their eye?
Sheesh I can imagine a whole bunch of Hillsongers having to use hands-off phones.
Not sure if EBers are allowed to use hands-off phones these modern technologies are a product of Lucifer :)

I believe that most Muslims are OK with the ideas that Ayaan Hirsi Ali presented but are afraid to speak out. Any religion should give adherents the freedom to question, criticise and even leave without fear.
Islam as well as several Christian sects/denominations such as Exclusive Brethren (EB) and Jehovah’s Witnesses (JW) make the process of leaving their religion one with a lot of suffering.

As for violence among Christians, Pericles doesn't even have to go back that far in history:
what about the witch-hunt on homosexuals; gay bashings still happen today BECAUSE of what the Bible and Koran say about homosexuality.
BECAUSE of Christian values permeating our government, homosexuals still are being treated as 2nd class citizens. Private Christian schools are even exempted from the sex discrimination laws that apply to the rest of Australia.

So we do have discrimination and violence in the 21st century because of the Bible.

RObert, I look forward to reading your Hillsong post if you ever can find it!
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 8:47:49 AM
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Hi Celivia

well.. that was quite a mix :) you said things which I could go on for hours about....but won't.

A quote from you.

"I believe that most Muslims are OK with the ideas that Ayaan Hirsi Ali presented but are afraid to speak out. Any religion should give adherents the freedom to question, criticise and even leave without fear."

Point 1.."You believe" etc... ok.. maybe its good to do some more research on that.

Point 2. "But are afraid to speak out"..BINGO :) hoor-bladi-ray.. in this you touch on 'the' issue. Scared of....who? exactly.. they sure are NOT scared of Fellow Human or Irfan.. so who would they be scared of ? aaah..now we are getting close. Possibly they are scared of the same people who sent death threats to Tom Zrika, spokesman for the Lebanese Muslim Association when he suggested Hilali should go ?

Point 3. 'freedom to question and leave' oh great :) you obviously have not been tippy toeing around in "Muslim Village" forum lately eh :) there is this radical...I would call him A TERRORIST myself who is asserting quite strongly that anyone who leaves Islam should be KILLED. He is also asserting that it is the UNanymous opinion of all schools of Islamic thought.

Point 4. If Muslims are teaching children to yell 'F&^k Jews in the streets of Sydney, do you 'really' think the schools will be teaching otherwise ? specially if it is 'Islamically politically incorrect' to not voice opposition to Israel.

So, the same ones who are scared to express support for Hirsi Ali, are also those who would not be supporting Israel or condemning Hezbollah... also out of fear ?

CONCLUSION It is the radicals...the hardliners who we must fight.. and I mean fight, in every way.. verbally, legally.

Robert. You have my sympathy re the crash.. I await your input.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 9:34:17 AM
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I knew I should have applied for a trade mark.

>>Pericles, before you make a repeat of your 'violence and Christianity' 'whack a Christian' rant<<

The only reason, Boaz - I repeat, the only reason - that I have been forced to draw your attention to some of the less savoury aspects of Christian history, is that you continually and willfully deny their reality.

Your apologia for the Crusades simply does not wash. Whether or not they were following the precise instructions contained in the New Testament, they were first and foremost Christians, on a Crusade, to kill Muslims.

If you were to agree that there is equal justification for berating religion itself, rather than Christianity or Islam, as the cause of unnecessary conflict and bloodshed, then there would be absolutely no need for me to point out that you are only presenting one side of the story.

Incidentally, and for whatever it is worth, I know several members of Sydney's Hillsong congregation, and they are without exception unselfish, honest, caring and charitable members of society. I have no knowledge of the workings of their organization, but these people actually give Christianity a thoroughly good name.

I know that the fact that they sing a lot gets up the nose of Peter Selleck, but in my view if there were more people focussed on helping the poor of the world in the way that these folk do, they can do karaoke 24/7 for all I care.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 9:47:28 AM
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ROBERT...back 2 u

I've already done some research on Hillsong, cannot find much of a concrete nature, but.. it appears there were some accusations made against them by some Aboriginals from the Riverstone area.

here is a quote from a letter sent by the board of the Riverstone Aboriginal Community Association.

"As the elected Board stated at our recent meeting with you our members do not support those allegations and we believe them to be completely without foundation"

Here is a link to the web site (at Hillsong)
http://www2.hillsong.com/media/default.asp?pid=1483

Here is the article in the SMH on which it is based.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/hillsong-denies-bribe-allegation/2005/12/22/1135032135696.html

I don't know about you, but I see 'politics' at work here..'

-Who made the allegation ?
-How could such an allegation benefit him (and his party) Politically?

Before you go too far down the track with this, you would need MUCH more than 'innuendo' and politicized claims for me to start ripping into Hillsong on this issue.

Its quite different from the School land issue which is clear cut and documented for all to see.

I have though, emailed them requesting that the salaries of key staff be included in their annual report.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 8 August 2007 9:59:52 AM
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BD,
I never said that I deny that there are some problems with the Koran (as there are with the Bible) that need to be looked at and openly discussed. I have problems with a fundamental Christian criticising someone else’s holy book while his own is not perfect either.

My children are friends with children from different religions/denominations (Buddhist, Christian, Greek Orthodox, Muslim) and their Muslim friends and families are all responsible, hardworking people who are just into helping others. Many Muslims believe that ‘good deeds’ get them into heaven.
Islam’s bad reputation is just because of a minority of fundamentalists, not because of the average, moderate Muslim.

I am not sure what your aim is in talking negatively about Islam all the time: what are you trying to achieve? This is a real question, not just criticism.
I would really love to see both Koran and Bible reviewed, if that’s your aim.

BTW you only talk about the violent parts of the Koran, but there are parts in it that promote non-violence as well, e.g. Koran 2:190 “God does not love aggressors”.
Not that I have much knowledge of the holy books but I asked the Muslim girl at the checkout of our local supermarket and wrote it down especially for you. She tells me little bits and pieces about Islam when I ask and says she doesn’t mind answering questions. She and her family are being taught only peaceful things about Islam- nothing about violence and hate.

“If Muslims are teaching children to yell 'F&^k Jews in the streets of Sydney, do you 'really' think the schools will be teaching otherwise?”
Islamic schools teach children proper values. There is no evidence that children are being taught to hate at Islamic schools that exist in Australia. It's all in your head.
Look at this link that shows that the St Ignatius College and the Stratified Islamic College are having conversations and working together.
http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/respect/media/st_ignatius_noor_al_houda.html
This is an excellent idea. Perhaps you should visit one of the Muslim schools around your area and talk to someone to ease your mind.
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 9 August 2007 8:50:33 AM
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No Pericles... you need to trademark that 'F I N G E R' also..because I'm using it now...

I have NOT said "The unsavory aspects of the history of Christendom do not exist or did not happen"..I have OPENLY agreed that they did.

What I HAVE said.. (now follow this... others are 'getting' it..you can too if you try a teensy bit harder :) "Those actions cannot be connected to or based on either the teaching or example to the Lord Jesus"

CELIVIA...

You mentioned 'The Bible too has violence' in it, or words to that effect. I offered to engage with you to sort this out once before, but you said "I don't have time" or something.. until I, or another helps you on this -you will keep on coming out with this same material.

You need to learn the difference between "Historical Reports" of specific incidents, and "Doctrinal Statements"

Probably the simplest way of illustrating this, is where Paul refers to a problem in the Corinthian church. THEN..he provides the doctrinal solution.

1 Corinthians 7 opens with:

1 Now for the matters you wrote about....

Chapter 5 of the same letter opens with

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife-And you are proud! (Historical report of immorality and pride)

Pauls goes on with:

Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? (Doctrinal Command)

"Immorality"= Put out of fellowship.

Its called... "CONTEXT"

Who in their right mind would say "Oh..the Bible mentions a man having sex with his fathers wife(stepmother)...we can too" on the basis of the above.

Now are you following me here ? If not.. newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au for follow up.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 9 August 2007 9:14:34 AM
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Boazy: "If Muslims are teaching children to yell 'F&^k Jews in the streets of Sydney, do you 'really' think the schools will be teaching otherwise ?"

More woolly thinking from our favourite Christian firebrand. That's like saying that if (some) Christians are teaching their children that homosexuality is an unnatural aberration, then this will be taught in Christian schools.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 9 August 2007 10:09:28 AM
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Yes, I do understand the context thing- but really, nothing in the Bible is crystal clear or there wouldn’t be so many denominations and disagreement.

However, the Bible as well as the Koran both can be used to justify violence; for example both condemn homosexuality and are both eagerly used by Christians and Muslims to justify violence and discrimination against the homosexual community (it’s just a coincident we’re discussing gay love on a different thread).

Correct me if I’m wrong but Jesus said nothing about homosexuality; while in the OT it says that homosexuals should be put to death, or something similar.
One would have thought that Jesus would have straightened out this important issue if there had been a misunderstanding in the OT.
So by saying nothing, he left it, knowing very well that it would create violence and discrimination against this minority group.

He did tell people to mutilate themselves for other reasons (stealing, sexual temptation) but nothing on homosexuality.
People are not so eager to follow his advice on selfmutilation, but are all too quick to use his advice when it suits them.

Nothing on homosexuality. Why not?
Posted by Celivia, Thursday, 9 August 2007 10:21:43 AM
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Now, hand back that finger for a moment Boaz, 'cos here we go again.

>>I have NOT said "The unsavory aspects of the history of Christendom do not exist or did not happen"..I have OPENLY agreed that they did. What I HAVE said.. (now follow this... others are 'getting' it..you can too if you try a teensy bit harder :) "Those actions cannot be connected to or based on either the teaching or example to the Lord Jesus"

But whether you like it or not - and it is crystal clear that you do not - these actions were performed in the name of Christianity.

This is the part that you have not accepted. Your position is, as you have once again re-stated above, "it's not what Jesus told them to do".

But Boaz, they went ahead and did it in his name anyway, didn't they?

How did they justify this? Probably, by using all the "smite thine enemies hip and thigh" justifications that they found in the Bible.

Samson whacked the Philistines, didn't he? First he "smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter", then "he found a new jawbone of an ass... and slew a thousand men therewith."

And did he get punished for this? Oh no. God rewarded him with a nice drink of water.

So you can blather on as long as you like about how "it's not Jesus' fault". But you are nevertheless guilty of selecting the most egregious "smite thine enemies hip and thigh" motifs from the Qur'an, at the drop of a hat, and painting Islam in those colours.

But perhaps... just perhaps.

Perhaps your position is that the God of the Old Testament and that of the New are two different beings? Is that it?

That would be at least a credible position to adopt. But it still doesn't absolve you of the charge of rabble-rousing, in the selective use of texts to support your position that your opponents are evil.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 10 August 2007 9:30:43 AM
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Hi Celivia
Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law" so does he need to specifically re-iterate every bit of it ?

Things in the bible not crystal clear, thus many denominations.

Interesting point. Denominations began usually by people filled with the Spirit of Christ, annointed, and preaching the Gospel outside of the established Churches.. example Methodism. Why did Wesley preach in the open air and not in the Anglican churches ? Simple, because the Anglican churches of the day had become lax, lethargic, and lame and were far too tolerant of outright sin. They had become, to quote Jesus in Revelation about the Laodicaean Church "Neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm" and he said he will spew them out of his mouth.

Wesley did not 'start' a denomination, he simply preached Christ. It was PEOPLE who gave he and his converts the name "Methodists" because they were very "methodical" in what they did.
The denominational differences are really not worth worrying about. They differ for historical reasons and on some doctrinal issues such as "Baptise Babies....yes/no" Some which baptize infants, also have 'confirmation' to confirm what was alluded to at infant baptism.

The bible is stronger for 'believers baptism' in my opinion, but that is not going to stop me enjoying fellowship with Anglicans who baptize infants.

PERICLES.... Claiming something was done 'in the name' of some figure does not negate that figures clear teaching. Hitler also said "I am doing the work of the Lord" but we know he was not.... because we have access to a) His behaviour b) The foundation on which he claims it was based. We do a simple comparison and conclude..NO.. he was NOT doing 'The work of the Lord'.

Your other point is less easy to answer, about the Old testament.
The historical situation was different.. Pre Messiah, and Israel, was a State.

I could not use Samson as grounds for fighting. I'd use Romans 13
And not 'in Gods name' but in humanities name. (Justice and Peace)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 10 August 2007 2:39:55 PM
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Hello Everybody
David I have only just now read the whole story of the link you posted.
It seems pretty clear. The land was to be used for housing and ought to be.
There is a lot of money around the Greenacer banks i can assure you for investment.
This will be a test for Muslim people and Leaders given the background.
I hope they are concerned by the peoples feelings in the area under the circumstances that this land was for houses.
I hope they pass it back over as a sign of good faith and after the response from the locals wanting houses built.
has anybody looked for an alternative site for their school?
Just an idea.
Good Luck
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 10 August 2007 4:21:56 PM
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Interesting angle.

>>Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law"<<

Which law was that, Boaz? Surely not that which was outlined in that violence-ridden document, the Old Testament?

>>Claiming something was done 'in the name' of some figure does not negate that figures clear teaching.<<

I have not said that it does. But surely, there has to be a teensy bit of responsibility in all of this?

If I came to Melbourne and whacked you on the head "in the name of Bill Gates", you would be totally justified in calling my motivation into question.

But when movements, denominations, even entire countries, do evil things "in the name of Christianity", surely there has to be some reflection on that particular religion?

If you disagree, then I can only point you towards the hundreds of posts that you have written, claiming that Islam is responsible for the actions of each and every one of its followers, all of the time.
Posted by Pericles, Saturday, 11 August 2007 2:34:37 PM
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Hi, BD
>>Jesus said "I have come to fulfill the law" so does he need to specifically re-iterate every bit of it?<<

No, he didn’t need to reiterate all of the law, just work on the parts that needed alteration or explaining. But if Jesus came to fulfill the law he would have left alone those parts of the law that didn’t need any improvement or alteration.

If, at that time when Jesus wandered the earth homosexuals would have been ‘put to death’ or in any other way violated, and Jesus did not say a word about that, doesn’t that mean that he agreed with the violence against homosexuals? He either agreed with the way homosexuals were treated and did nothing to stop the violence, or he did not agree and should have said something about it. After all, it already said in the OT “Do not steal” but Jesus reinforced it by telling people to cut their own hands off if they did have the urge to steal.

So, still today, because Jesus said nothing about the violence against homosexuals, Christian as well as Muslim homophobes are still discriminating, and even bashing homosexuals in the name of God or Jesus just because the Bible advices this and Jesus was silent.
Now, if Jesus had said: “Homosexual people should have equal rights as they are God’s creation so we should respect them”, then religious people all over the world would have had no problem with same sex marriage and equal rights.
I hope you follow what I mean- have you ever discussed this issue before?

Anyway, pale makes sense and as I said in the beginning of this discussion: if this land is zoned for residential houses, no school has a right to be there. The land is either zoned for a school or not, but the kind of school shouldn’t matter.
Posted by Celivia, Saturday, 11 August 2007 3:40:49 PM
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Celiva
Firstly your owed an apolgoy by me from some time back.
My only exuse is I get irritable fighting for the animals.' I apoligise'

As for Bass Hill this is a huge mistake by the Muslim People and at least make it a multi cultral school if they wont pass the land back for housing.
I guess what we need to be careful of here is branding Muslims arrogant because it happens to be them! who purchased the land.

Its a dog eat dog eat dog world out there in the business sector so they are probably not doing anything any different to most comercial investors.
The question is also- Would there be such a stink if it were for a church or Christian school?

Is there an arrogance from Muslim leaders?
You and I have been posting on another thread- the ritual Slaughter of Animals In Australia for Halal.
As you know I have been working with the Muslim leaders for a few years now.
I am honestly thinking what is the right thing to do about experiences I we have had regarding their attitude and credibilty. I am trying to be fair to all.
Its very possible the people who purchased the land for a school didnt even know it was ear marked for houses." If"? they did know that would puts a more sinister slant on it.

Dave . You would serve your fellow man better if you gave us less quotes from the bible- or the Quran for that matter.

I reckon if we banned ALL religion the world would be safer and happier.
Celiva made some very good points on the bible too if you like it or not.

My only concern about that David is you will turn it into some religious fight.
Just remember there is good and bad amoung all people.
After saying that Australia does not need to be turned into a country where by we change our culture.
Thats totally different- Perhaps ALL Schools from NOW ON ought be Multicultrual.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 11 August 2007 6:37:07 PM
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Hi Celivia
we should remember that "Jesus" is at one with the Father, and though not manifest in the Old testament except in prophecy, He shares the Fathers sense of Justice and Morality.

This would include that regarding homsexual behavior.
We need to distinguish though, between various kinds of conduct.
1/ Practice of homosexual behavior in private.
2/ PromOTION of such behavior by deliberate political activity.

Jesus clearly says that whether in private or public, the 'practice' is to be condemned, and will exclude people from the kingdom of Heaven. But lets be clear, it is not the 'practice' alone, but the heart condition that behaviour points to.

If a person KNOWS that conduct a,b,c is wrong, in both mans eyes and Gods, then they persist in that conduct simply because they stubbornly 'want' to... then they should not expect a lot of sympathy from the Almighty who has said "This is wrong".

That applies equally to incest,homosexual, and bestial behavior, along with paedophilia and any kind of child abuse.
I simply don't see why we should single out 'homosexual' from the other types of behavior God has clearly condemned.

PALE.. your fear of me turning the issue into a religious fight is well grounded, as I honestly see no other reason to fight it.
But I'm just a small speck on the wall of insignificance, and am not likely to have much impact.
Anything which promotes the values of Hizb Ut Tahrir (Kalifa conference) is evil. They may not be directly behind this school, but the promotion of Islam in general opens the way for their influence.

Evidence of their impact is found in the 100,000 Indonesian Muslims who gathered at HIZB/Caliphate rally in Indonesia a couple of days ago.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 14 August 2007 1:11:38 PM
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I think this is a topic that deserves a little more explanation, Boaz, and your help in understanding its significance would be most welcome.

>>Hi Celivia we should remember that "Jesus" is at one with the Father, and though not manifest in the Old testament except in prophecy, He shares the Fathers sense of Justice and Morality<<

When you suggest that he "shares the Fathers sense of Justice and Morality", this would seem to hint that we are dealing with two separate entities. Are we? Or are they one?

If they are in fact indivisible, are we looking perhaps at an evolution of thought: in the times of the Old Testament, it was perfectly OK to go around smiting everyone that offended God, but by the time the New Testament came around, peace and love were the order of the day.

Or if they are in fact separate, then are we seeing a generational difference of opinion? Father, accustomed to smiting all and sundry, at odds with Son, who preaches peace, love, and turning the other cheek?

[My generation went through all this in the sixties of course. My father was on frigates during WWII, and was pretty cool with the smiting stuff, while I went through the peace/love/flower power era twenty-odd years later. What comes around, goes around]

This is not a flippant observation, by the way, since you, Boaz, spend a great deal of time excoriating Islam for the violence of its teaching. If God = Jesus, you have a little more explaining to do about his/their violent OT escapades.

If they are separate, of course, that leaves the way open - wide open, in fact - to consider Jesus as just another prophet, with his own unique interpretation of the OT prophecies.

But that may be going too far. Even if we accept the concept of oneness, that leaves us to consider that if Jesus shares "the Fathers sense of Justice and Morality", that would include his condoning all that OT smiting, wouldn't it?

Dammit, what was the question again?
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 14 August 2007 4:35:41 PM
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Indeed, Pericles - that's precisely the question I put to Boazy on another thread yesterday (but which he dodged).

Boazy: "(Jesus) shares the Fathers sense of Justice and Morality."

Like when he ordered the genocide of the Canaanites?

As for this: "If a person KNOWS that (homosexuality) is wrong, in both mans eyes and Gods, then they persist in that conduct simply because they stubbornly 'want' to... then they should not expect a lot of sympathy from the Almighty who has said "This is wrong".

That applies equally to incest,homosexual, and bestial behavior, along with paedophilia and any kind of child abuse."

Like I've said before, more homophobic hocus pocus from OLO's most prolific bigot. And this:

"Anything which promotes the values of Hizb Ut Tahrir (Kalifa conference) is evil. They may not be directly behind this school, but the promotion of Islam in general opens the way for their influence."

A variation on Boazy's hate theme, in this case Islamophobic rabble-rousing instead of homophobic hocus pocus, but equally bigoted.

Boazy's a great advertisement for Christianity isn't he?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 14 August 2007 9:08:02 PM
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Actually, now that I think of it, Boazy's outdone himself in his post above - in which he vilifies homosexuals *and* Muslims in a single post.

He explicitly equates homosexuality with "incest... bestial behavior, along with paedophilia and any kind of child abuse."

Not content with that little gem of hate-speak, he then goes on to link the proposed Muslim school with Hizb Ut Tahrir, while admitting "They may not be directly behind this school" - i.e. without a shred of evidence.

For those who want classic examples of vilification, look no further.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 14 August 2007 9:30:51 PM
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Pericles, for detailed and comprehensive answers to the issue of Christ, and the Old Testament, you will need to do some reading.
Google will help, but the most helpful resource is the Bible itself.
You clearly have need to study the 'Trinity'( didn't even know what it was when I came to Christ)
and there are many resources out there. Nicean Creed is a good start.

Jesus spoke about ultimate Judgement. Matthew 25

GOOD NEWS.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

BAD NEWS
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

CONTEXT "When the Son of Man comes"

So, the only question now becomes. "If Jesus spoke of final judgement, and not temporal/this world here and now judgement, why (if He is also God) did this occur in the Old testament"?

In short, because it was in Gods eternal plan to do so. In the unfolding of Salvation History, that...is how it came to be.

The relation of God to Israel, and those who Israel related to, is something which can only be comprehended fully by detailed study of the Pentateuch (5 books) and an understanding of the Covenant.

No, Jesus was not 'just another prophet' if he were, He would not have done what He did, or made the claims He did, nor would that which was written about Him be as it is.

CJ... it seems that wherever standing for principle which does not concur with your world view occurs, 'vilification' is the only response you can make ? shallow, empty and a waste of time old son.
I rejected MIUAUG ages ago.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 15 August 2007 9:03:05 AM
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PALE,
I’m not aware of a reason for an apology- don’t worry about anything.

BD
Where you, Jesus and God go wrong is that you all deliberately deny the fact that people do not choose their sexual orientation, that homosexuality is immutable and that genetics play a significant role. Science indicates that this genetic role is even greater than the role genetics play in (left)handedness.

I don't understand how you can maintain the outdated idea that homosexuality is a behavioural problem or a crime that should be punished in the face of modern scientific evidence that shows the opposite.

There is a large-scaled study in progress on homosexual brothers that is likely to provide conclusive evidence of gay genes.
Not that I personally care whether homosexuality is genetic or not; it’s only because of the need to dislodge homophobia that scientists are encouraged to ‘prove’ something and I’m interested.
Thanks to false religious claims science evolves more and more. Ironic!

I do understand, from a fundamentalists' perspective, that it must be emotionally disruptive whenever scientists prove God or the Bible wrong. I feel for them.

Imagine, for this moment, that we fastforward about ten years and that there is already conclusive evidence that homosexuality is innate.

This means that people who still decide to believe in the creation story will have to admit that either:
a. God is evil: He created homosexuals just so that He could send them to hell, or
b. God is ignorant: He had no scientific knowledge of genes and hadn’t intended to create homosexuals, or
c. God has warped morals and is simply wrong to condemn homosexuality, or
d. God is a bad communicator, which resulted in errors in the Bible: God REALLY created homosexuals to love them like all of His creations. Shame that Jesus didn’t get this message across either. (Like father, like son).
e. God didn’t create homosexuals; they later appeared naturally through genetic adaptations/variations.
f. Other possibilities BD or anyone else can think of? Remember the conclusive evidence when making suggestions.
Posted by Celivia, Wednesday, 15 August 2007 2:35:22 PM
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Boaz, I tried.

But I cannot make head nor tail of your last post.

Would it be possible for you to explain, in your own words and without referring to external sources, its meaning?

>>So, the only question now becomes. "If Jesus spoke of final judgement, and not temporal/this world here and now judgement, why (if He is also God) did this occur in the Old testament"?<<

Apart from the obvious fact that this is by far and away NOT the "only question", what exactly are you trying to say?

The only hint I get is the reference to "not temporal/this world here and now", which indicates some form of time absence, or time irrelevance perhaps. If this is the case, then you are arguing closer to my "they are one and the same" position, which means that Jesus is totally complicit in the OT smiting stuff.

If I have missed the point, I am very willing to try again.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 15 August 2007 6:50:39 PM
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