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political commentators

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http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/christopher-pyne-delivers-damning-verdict-on-the-state-of-australian-politics-20190210-p50wt2.html
Chris Pyne his thoughts are in this link
And worth the read, we will talk about this after the election, one it is said no Liberal member thinks they can win
Why are some commentators so very far out in front of both Liberal thought and voters
Are they harming this government
Did as many think, they drive the removal of Turnbull?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 11 February 2019 5:18:26 AM
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It is because people like Pyne & Bishop are still in the Liberals that I won't vote Liberal.

If I am going to suffer a lefty, immoral, corrupt government, it might as well be the real thing, Labor, rather than a cheap copy, the liberals under Turnbull & people like Pyne.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 11 February 2019 9:22:17 AM
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Hasbeen in fact you and those like you are the reason the election is lost
For months I have been claiming the Conservatives within this Government are harming it
Consider this, the blood sport we call politics is in the end a numbers game
Conservatives will never have the numbers
Maybe powered by not truly understanding Trump did not win an election, the Democrats lost it
Conservatives and commentators like Sky News, refused to see the numbers are not there
Here in our own little bubble they are, but never in the real world
Labor will win, but in truth here too Conservatives lost it, Labor did not win it
Posted by Belly, Monday, 11 February 2019 10:51:21 AM
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Paul indeed there are other options, we should look at them
My view remains get rid of the senate, it may be your view too if one nation and the Australian Conservatives have the balance of power
Democracy is not about the minors ruling over the majority
My new thread has some common ground with this one
Clearly Conservatives have failed to see numbers play the biggest roll and they clearly do not have the numbers
But our chook pen senate best serves them
Posted by Belly, Monday, 11 February 2019 10:58:06 AM
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Belly What is wrong with you your besty Paul has not even commented here and you brown nose quote "Paul indeed there are other options, we should look at them"

You are embarrassing, you make idol worship look like child's play.

Give it a rest.
Posted by Philip S, Monday, 11 February 2019 12:09:29 PM
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Philip S.,

Have you never made a typo while posting?
Or posted to the wrong discussion?
What do you have against Belly that you continue
to pursue him discussion after discussion - finding
fault. Are you so perfect?

Dear Belly,

I very much enjoy listening to political commentators and
hearing their views. There's so many voices - many of them
strident and predictable. I think that good media is
good for democracy and a variety of views are important.
That's why independent voices should be valued. But I
guess - it is all a matter of perception isn't it? We
all bring our own biases into who we listen to and who
appeals to us. At least in this country we still have
quite a few choices - and we are able to make up our
own minds - to a certain degree.

Who will win the next election? I'm not predicting anything
at this stage. Predicting the future is risky at the
best of times. As the election draws nearer I would not
predict anything with any certainty at this stage.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 February 2019 12:27:43 PM
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I was watching Morrisson, Pyne & another Liberal being interviewed a few days ago & no matter how much the Leftie journo tried , all three shot Labor & its policies down in flames.
I just hope we end up with a Conservative Govt kept in line by conservative independents. A Leftist Govt is simply just more nails in the coffin of this Nation. I just hope many first-time voters can think past the Labor hype.
LNP hasn't been much of a Govt lately but, when you look at Labor's legacy, what choice is there ? Labor is jeopardising the future of Australia, for what ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 11 February 2019 1:23:47 PM
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Australia seems to have no one to match the brilliance of Tucker Carlson. The abc is made up of terrible left wing feminist commentators who are bad for our nation. Bolt is probably the pick of our commentators who exposes the marxist madness that Labour, greens and the Turnbullite termites are up to.
Posted by runner, Monday, 11 February 2019 1:42:07 PM
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Comments like these certainly do not raise
the bar in discussions on this forum.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 February 2019 1:57:36 PM
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Foxy,
how about offering your view on what the next Govt should focus on ? What's your take on the antics of Centrelink ? What's your view on foreign investment & land purchase ? What's your view on transport infrastructure ? What's your view on the fish kills in the Murray ?
No links please, just your own suggestions.
Posted by individual, Monday, 11 February 2019 2:21:57 PM
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Foxy the link was worth the read
In it Chris Pyne told the truth, do not be concerned on my behalf
In fact posts like most here are worth seeing
They enforce Pynes words
Believe me even the Liberals know they will be beaten
And it will be Labor that does it
SOME have difficulty staying in touch with reality
I truly believe this government, without its right wing, could put policy in place even now, that would win it the election
But know, the rabid right as seen here,will not let truth see the light of day
Personal attacks are it seems not against forum rules
Avoid it it is worth the effort
But in avoiding it this poster is restricted to what threads I can post in, a sort of upside down freedom of speech v freedom from abuse
Posted by Belly, Monday, 11 February 2019 3:38:06 PM
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Individual,

You asked what should the next government focus on?

Keeping the promises that it makes to be elected.

You asked about foreign investment?

Australia has a small population. Foreign investment fills
the gap between what Australia saves and invests every
year. Without foreign investment Australia would be
unable to build our economy to its full potential. It
would have less funds available to spend on hospitals,
schools, roads, and other essential services.

Your reference to the problems that CentreLink has
faced - I presume you're referring to the letters that
honest people have been wrongly sent and accused of fraud.
Of course the system should have been suspended until the
glitch was fixed. However, I think that 72% of people have
been able to fix their problems online and only 2.2% were
asked to provide supporting paperwork.

As for transport infrastructure? Immigration is being blamed
on our transport problems. I think the real problem lies in
jobs. Keeping jobs in city centres instead of moving them
out of city centres is what's creating the conjestion.
And this won't change until better planning takes place.

Fish-kills in the Murray? That is a major ecological
disaster and what is badly needed are independent probes
that will ensure the need for long-standing issues getting
a public airing.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 February 2019 3:48:44 PM
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Dear Belly,

You're right.

Best to just walk away.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 February 2019 3:53:58 PM
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Foxy,
Which opposition has ever let Govt keep its promises ? Certainly not Labor !
What is Australia's full potential ?
Centrelink is un-contactable !
What do you suggest as "better planning" ?
No more probes, they've proven futile in the past.

I suggest for any Govt promise not be blocked by an opposition.
Australia's full potential won't be realised without a national service.
Centrelink needs to be made responsible as an employment agency instead of persecuting the unemployed.
Better planning cannot be achieved with the present academic "experts".
The Murray needs water, via a Bradfield-type scheme, not another hare-brained study !
Thanks for the reply.
Posted by individual, Monday, 11 February 2019 5:28:48 PM
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Inland rivers need huge dams to store flood waters and drought proof the rivers. We have the Greens blaming climate change, it was climate change all right but not from human causes as the Greens imagine.
Posted by Josephus, Monday, 11 February 2019 8:58:51 PM
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Josephus interesting diversion from the subject
But in the end I agree,we both have said so in past threads about that subject
May I? get back on subject that is
IF we all leave our biases in the bucket at the door, we will soon notice a bad taste in our mouths
Yes even me, it will be the truth, often so far away from what we want, but still stands unchallenged
Today my side of politics MUST step away from its wants and wishes, it must because it is being wedged
Not just by the governments scare campaign, but the sad understanding enough voters demand only the strongest boarder protection
Right or wrong, cruel or not, trying to pull the voters to a place they will not go is never an option in an election year
Bad taste? yes humbling ,but too as we get nearer government, assisted by a right that never bends to considers its lack of numbers, just maybe the only thing to do
Just maybe if that right of reality faction thought like that, abandoned its unshared wants and wishes it would not be headed for that cliff top
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 5:33:22 AM
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Political commentators are nothing but biased gossipers ! They claim to have all the answers so why don't they become advisors to politicians instead of waddling on the rumour treadmill ?
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 7:28:05 AM
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Rather think individual you have missed the point of Pynes complaint
He in my view was talking about Sky news and shock jocks with too much imagination
He, again my opinion, was telling us that group, pushes too many in this government away from true public opinion
Grasping the mad thought polls/public do not matter
And full steam ahead with stuff that cuts huge holes in their own boat
Again and clearly, the right is driving the LNP bus over a cliff and seems quite pleased about it
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 11:08:07 AM
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Quote Belly, "Hasbeen in fact you and those like you are the reason the election is lost'

Just what is it that you can't understand Belly?

I am not interested in a second hand lefty government, & will not vote LNP while these B grade lefties are running the show.

If we are going to have a lefty government we need the full blown catastrophe that a Labor government under the likes of Shorten & Plibersek will be. It is only after another catastrophe like KRudd & Gillard, that we might get back to good government. That clown Turnbull got us well down the road, & this incompetent lot are just as bad.

If we don't do it soon, it will be too late to matter. Our fate as the poor white dropkicks of the south pacific well be locked in for the foreseeable future.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 11:38:03 AM
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Dear Hassie,

The people in Victoria re-elected their Labor
Government - they didn't fall or buy into the
usual outmoded scare-tactics of the Liberal
Party. Labor didn't have to promise or buy their
way into the election. They simply provided Victorians
with results first. (not promises) The results were good
then, and still are.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 12:09:35 PM
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Hasbeen it is in YOUR post, every word warns me you are out of touch
That near loony reference to left Labor, the refusal to see voters have turned away from the very right
From the LNP
From a few holding the reigns of Liberalism
From a truth without changes in policy Labor is the voters choice
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 3:09:52 PM
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If anyone has lost t6he plot, it's you Belly, duped by the party you love.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 12 February 2019 7:07:09 PM
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Hasbeen let me count the ways, ways you serve my party
See you said you will not be voting for them the LNP, rather like a Green who will never vote for us
That should remind you about a thing named Compromise, we all must do it, or serve the other side
Australian Conservatives, tell me, do you think they can EVER govern this country
Can they or one motion ever?
So Compromise, knowing no party can ever be even near perfect, but sticking to the one you think is best
Yesterday, even at this late stage Morrison could have compromised, backed the bill on health care of refugees
He however is baking a cake, one with an eye to turning this election in to a slander and lies hate campaign, using the Tampa recipe he inherited from Howard, he serves my party not his own
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 13 February 2019 6:31:33 AM
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Belly,
I know the Coalition has no idea about equality but, can you tell me that Labor does ? If so, give us an example. I have yet to hear a labor politician explain how they suddenly plan to achieve all their policies if they get in but never when they were in ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 13 February 2019 7:20:49 AM
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indy well first in all truth the system you and others do not like, that is 40 percent of seats for women
You know no party is perfect but tax reform, including the so called pensioner tax is coming
Let us both be honest Howard changed the franking tax in far better times
Giving tax pay back to people who pay not tax needs fixing
To hear Labors plans you must first listen to them, watch question time 2 pm eastern daylight saving time on Sky or the ABC
but giving tax cuts to the already rich is not doing it for me
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 13 February 2019 5:47:36 PM
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Belly. "Yesterday, even at this late stage Morrison could have compromised, backed the bill on health care of refugees". You really have lost the plot now Belly.

Why on earth would we waste any of our seriously limited health care capacity on a bunch of gate crashers, who are free to go home, or to the Us any time they want.

Personally I have been waiting for a knee replacement for 6 years. It is scheduled Friday week, for the third time, but recent communication gives me the impression, I'm about to be shoved out again.

We have people around here unable to work due to medical problems, & can't get any treatment. One lady has been rushed to hospital 3 times with gall stone problems, only to be told no capacity, so they can't schedule an operation, "until she is sicker", & be sent home a couple of days later.

We have a number of men involved in hard work, such as repairing bulldozers, who can't get their backs fixed, due to lack of capacity. Our whole system is crumbling, & has no spare capacity, certainly none for gare crashing bludgers.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 13 February 2019 6:20:29 PM
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but giving tax cuts to the already rich is not doing it for me
Belly,
neither is giving my money to those who want to see our downfall !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 13 February 2019 9:26:22 PM
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Hasbeen please consider
We both, or I at least, know the world is watching, and it is not pleased
We hopefully, are aware of human rights
Yes we know voters, the most important people in an election year, do not want the boats to start up again
NO! not trying to annoy, just telling the truth as I see it,Morrison is working towards another Tampa
He wants boats to arrive, in fact watch them do just that, backs will be turned people told
Now for the humanity locked away offshore, no, never bring them here, remind those who are and have been telling them we will, for six years, THEY are just as responsible as both governments, for the torture
But never forget these folk are human beings, CONSERVATIVES have forgotten
To my detractors from the center and left REMEMBER the first task is to get rid of this government not push votes toward them
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 14 February 2019 5:44:44 AM
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in fact watch them do just that,
Belly,
So, it'll be the Coalition's fault after your outfit sends out massages of encouragement to the people smugglers ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 14 February 2019 7:58:11 AM
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Individual,

What messages of encouragement are you talking about?
The messages have not changed in the slightest despite
the scare-mongering attempts by the current government.

People will still not be able to settle in Australia.
They will still be retained in detention indefinitely,
and then shipped elsewhere. Australia will still not be a very
attractive destination - nothing will change - except our
care for those needing medical attention - which we are
obligated to provide under the contracts we've signed and
have reneged on - with so many deaths occurring needlessly
through neglect.

Shame on our current government. And Bravo for the Bill being
passed!
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 14 February 2019 9:55:24 AM
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indy sorry but you are not thinking clearly at best
This whole issue has been blown up by a lie that never ends
Conservatives, assisted by the greens, stopped the Malaysian solution.
Because LNP knew it would work,too that we would need no offshore detention centers
*They wanted to keep boat people* as a weapon against Labor
You, and those like you, have been conned
Labors policy will not weaken boarder control
IF WE SEE A BOAT arrive, it will be bought to us by the LNP
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 14 February 2019 10:16:00 AM
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People will still not be able to settle in Australia.
Foxy,
So, this change is for what ? What happens after the medical treatment ? back to detention ?
Why is labor so hell-bent on disrupting everything at the cost of the citizens it wants to vote for them ?

IF WE SEE A BOAT arrive, it will be bought to us by the LNP.
Belly,
so, after no boats for some time under the Coalition it will now be their fault after Labor's self-serving tantrum ?
I think you're off your trolley well & truly !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 14 February 2019 10:32:54 AM
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Belly & Individual,

But isn't it possible that the Labour Party is just waiting for such a cunning plan ? That's how they will call it ?

But wait: wouldn't that be right up Labour's alley ? That they want the government to try some clumsy stunt like that ? So is it possible that Labour will somehow engineer a few boats to try to land on the Australian mainland, and perhaps be immediately intercepted on-shore - all purporting to be part of the government's plan ?

But wait, there's more: isn't it possible that the government can see that this might happen, and are working to forestall a Labour plan by stopping any boats as soon as they enter international waters ? Of course, they would trumpet these actions as part of the determined efforts of the border force people, even though to allow even one boat through would probably have more negative impact on Labour than on the government ?

But wait ........ hey, there's never any end to paranoia, is there ? After all, our political enemies are all so devious and cunning, they're capable of anything.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 14 February 2019 11:07:27 AM
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Individual,

You ask - "So the change is for what?"

The change is a win for humanity and compassion
in the passing of the medical transfer legislation.
This legislation only allows asylum seekers on
Nauru and Manus a temporary stay in Australia to
receive urgent medical treatment that is not available
in detention. They will not be allowed to stay in
Australia permanently.

A letter in The Age newspaper asked -

Äre we seriously saying it is right to withold medical
assistance from refugees? Do we do this in our
prisons or in our wars (Geneva Convention). Are these
people who need medical help not still "in detention"
when we bring them to Australia for medical treatment?

Scott Morrison and his colleagues'
fear campaign did not work. The legislation is not about
border security and will not encourage people smugglers.
Asylum seekers would have to bring themselves to near
death to qualify for medivac if they were seeking to
come to Australia by this means.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 14 February 2019 12:09:51 PM
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Have you got a new peacenik hippy girlfriend, with "flowers in her hair" belly? You are certainly sounding as if you have found "ENLIGHTENMENT" of some doubtful kind, while you were away.

In fact I could ask, are you the same belly we all used to know & sort of love? I have my doubts. All this fuzzy thinking is not what we expect, or indeed used to get from a devout red neck unionist.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 14 February 2019 2:03:28 PM
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Scott Morrison and his colleagues' fear campaign did not work.
Foxy,
Could it be that those Judges have been promised something by Shorten in return ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 14 February 2019 3:45:45 PM
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LNP lives in a fantasy land loudmouth my question is this, should we reward them by voting for them after near a decade of failure?
Back on subject, for some reason believers think those who do not believe are evil or wrong
If we take the time to look back at history long before Christ is said to have walked the world how do we explain the Egyptians
They never followed God as we know it
What do we make of the south America tribes who followed other Gods
Man if we need a God, need one that unites all humanity
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 14 February 2019 3:55:30 PM
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Individual,

You asked, "Could it be that those judges were promised
something by Shorten in return?"

Does that mean that you think that Labor will win the
next election?

Interesting.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 15 February 2019 9:18:15 AM
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lost the internet again, had a reply to indy ready
so here go,s, indy I knew Bill Shorten, once idolized the man
clear eyed and clear headed he is never ever going to let the boats restart
He will try to find answers to no longer need offshore detention
Please give some considered thought, as Tony Abbott has
To the Malaysian solution
It WOULD have stopped the boats FOREVER that is why the LNP said no to it
This single issue is all the LNP have, a fear and loathing campaign TAMPA like
While no longer on my knees to Bill this much I know, he will be liked, by both sides, and leads a front bench better than we have seen for a decade
Posted by Belly, Friday, 15 February 2019 4:49:10 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/enemies-within-as-greens-caught-in-civil-war-20190215-p50xze.html
Sorry Paul, I have tipped the bucket on my own side here too and often
BUT while it will bring out the haters it is the truth
You mob have lost the plot in NSW
IF voters took the time to see the true very left has its hands around your party,s neck?
Sadly voters often do not look
Posted by Belly, Friday, 15 February 2019 4:54:53 PM
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Belly,
Do I think Labor will win ? Well, looking around I can see a lot of impressionable first-time voters & a lot of public servants who want even better pays as do many of those on unwarranted welfare.
I'm afraid the decent voters will be outnumbered but Labor won't win, decency & integrity are likely to lose with Labor in govt..
Posted by individual, Friday, 15 February 2019 10:18:10 PM
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indy stay in touch mate please
Now you can see a lot of first time voters, seems to be your view enough to wing this election
Did I miss the fun?
What great massive baby boom got under my guard?
Never happened, kids grow up no more or less than any election year and will vote as they wish
It is not over the bell has not rang, but polling seems to show those people you seem to hold in contempt, Australian Voters will elect Labor
Some thing is reminding me some one claims the voters always get it right
No doubt you agree, unless they install Labor
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 16 February 2019 5:22:34 AM
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Individual,

You're saying that decency and integrity will lose
with Labor in government?

On what are you basing that statement - certainly
not on the behaviour of the current government -
just ask its femlae MPs and those who have left or are
leaving.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 16 February 2019 9:25:07 AM
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indy is doing the best he can
And walking on his own path is part of that
In the end indy you try very hard not to see what the real world looks like
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 16 February 2019 11:04:06 AM
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Dear Foxy,

Is it possible that the great majority of internees on Nauru and Manus will soon be brought to Australia and stay here, thanks to the Phelps Bill ? All these blokes in their twenties and thirties, suddenly too sick to be treated by the pathetically-poor medical personnel on primitive Nauru and Manus ?

Hmm ....... just a bit racist, don't you think ? And if it's so necessary to whip those fit and healthy young blokes to Australia, why not genuinely sick local people from Nauru and Manus ?

Oh, I see, it's like, part of their culture to be sick and primitive and poverty-stricken, nothing to do with us, none of our concern. Our hearts bleed only for illegal refugees.

Médecins sans Frontières are initiating long-distance medical treatment over the internet, etc., for people on Nauru and Manus, as they probably do all over the world. Perhaps they might send doctors to Nauru and Manus as well. Gosh, that might be a workable alternative, from the government's point of view: sending specialist doctors to complement those already there

Of course, though, we all know that MSF is a far-right group, thwarting every compassionate initiative at every turn, and probably working for Trump. Down with MSF !

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 16 February 2019 1:41:44 PM
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Loudmouth blame the Australian voters for the torture of these folk
If they did not insist the boats stop those boats would not longer be of more use as a political weapon and a solution would have been found
Will the party that bought us Tampa win based on false fear and loathing
Maybe a boat will arrive soon, after a full escort to our boarder?
Bring on the Malaysian solution
Yes for a while, until the boats stop forever, we will take more refugees
Hand picked but more
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 16 February 2019 3:48:40 PM
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Foxy,
Political commentators are rather boring because rather than comment & interview they push their Left bias.
I'd love to see an un-biased commentator offer their idea of a solution, you think that's possible ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 16 February 2019 5:13:20 PM
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Individual,

My experiences differ from yours.

I don't find political commentators boring at
all. I love hearing their views and explanations.
I also don't label their views - because we're
all biased to a certain degree.

Commentators like - Gerard Henderson, Niki Savva,
Katharine Murphy, Laura Tingle, Barrie Cassidy,
Mark Kenny, Mark Riley, Lenore Taylor,
Peter van Onselen, Annabel Crabb, Patricia Karvelas,
and so many others - are all interesting.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 16 February 2019 5:39:57 PM
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Dear Joe,

I'm surprised at you.

It's not like you to be so ill-informed.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 16 February 2019 5:45:04 PM
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Dear Foxy,

How do you mean ?

For the record, I'm fully supportive of the annual refugee quota - is it twenty thousand now, or twenty seven thousand ? As long as they apply properly and take their turn, and as long as there are adequate support programs, such as English-language, housing, social support, etc., I'm happy with it.

But not illegal refugees, who try to jump the queue, and of course there IS a queue.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 16 February 2019 6:39:54 PM
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indy grab a cold beer, make it two go sit in front of a TV watch SKY NEWS
Be careful, it is an anti truth Trump like propaganda machine
Even further right that some of the things you say
Thanks however, for highlighting them, by your words
See post one, read the link, if it still works
Christopher Pyne was referring to THEM
He noted some are way out in front of Liberalism,and doing great damage, to this government
In fact the whole point of this thread is do commentators accurately reflect what voters are thinking
PS Trump [this mornings SMH] wants a Nobel prize for? buffoon of the year?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 17 February 2019 6:18:01 AM
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Dear Joe,

You are misinformed.

Lets look at the facts:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/15/theres-no-legal-queue-and-three-otherpfacts-australians-get-wrong-about-asylum-seekers
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 February 2019 9:24:28 AM
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cont'd...

Dear Joe,

Sorry for the typo. Here's the link again:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/15/theres-no-legal-queue-and-three-other-facts-australians-get-wrong-about-asylum-seekers
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 February 2019 9:29:27 AM
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Dear Foxy,

I would love to know the numbers, from one year to another, of refugee applications being filed. With 68 million refugees and displaced people around the world, I can't believe that exactly 27,000 of those 68 million have applied, and no more. I've met ex-refugees who have waited for up to eighteen years, in camps in West and East Africa and Lebanon, and elsewhere.

Most of those genuine refugees would hardly have a pot to make use of, let alone ten thousand dollars, plus air-fare to Indonesia. Of course, many of those trying to circumvent the annual quota by paying (and being able to pay) boat-smugglers are genuinely refugees, in amongst the economic migrants, but they shouldn't have any superior claims to all those poor buggers in desert camps in Africa and the Middle East.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 17 February 2019 9:47:27 AM
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Dear Joe,

You think that people arriving by boat are not only
"queue jumpers,"but that they have acted unfairly
because they have "jumped the queue"of those wanting
to enter Australia as legal immigrants. Moreover you
have opined that they have used their "superior"
financial circumstances to gain an advantage over
their poorer and equally needy compatriots who are
unable to pay to escape from their poverty, despair,
oppression, and persecution.

Therefore the obvious conclusion we are invited to draw
is that such immoral, unjust behaviour should not only
be punished but also discouraged by ensuring that the
penalties for acting in this way are sufficiently
harsh.

Detention camps, surrounded by high fences topped by
razor wire and coupled with the prospect of indefinite
incarceration go some considerable way to fulfilling
both these criteria.

BTW: The "superior"financial status of some asylum
seekers over others is irrelevant in determining
how they ought to be treated.

Anyway, as I stated to you earlier - you have surprised
me with your opinion. And as you seem to be dealing with
opinions here and not facts - I shall stick with mine.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 February 2019 10:32:15 AM
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Dear Foxy,

You assert that, "Therefore the obvious conclusion we are invited to draw is that such immoral, unjust behaviour should not only be punished but also discouraged by ensuring that the penalties for acting in this way are sufficiently harsh."

Your interpretation :) I'm certainly not suggesting anything punitive, I would support the immediate repatriation of such illegal entrants to the country which they have just left, with complete compensation (well, up to ten thousand dollars) for their inconvenience, and advice to fill out the proper forms and wait like everybody else, with their record of trying to get into Australia illegally officially erased, no penalty applying.

I'm amazed at the heartlessness of people who can hear about people spending decades in desert camps, and feel no compassion for them. Very disappointing.

Love nonetheless,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 17 February 2019 10:42:08 AM
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Foxy and Belly,
You both are fond of quoting on 'facts' and 'truth'.

Surprizing that you quote this bloke Tickner.

Was it not him who was promoting the womens funny business episode in SA some years back. A scandal worth remembering for Labor. No facts and no truth! Joe may remember it well.

The official word from the Dept is that "Except for some New Zelanders, all non citizens require a valid visa to enter Australia". Looks like Tickner might still be promoting funny business.
Posted by HenryL, Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:42:33 PM
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HenryL.,

Yes, Tickner was appointed in 1990 as Minister for
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs under the
Keating Government. He was involved in the Hindmarsh
Island Bridge controversy which involved the clash of
Indigenous Australians religious beliefs and property
rights. He lost his seat in 1996 as a result of this
controversy and partly also due to the unpopularity of
the Keating Government at the time.

BTW - Asylum seekers are not required to have visas.
Google this information for yourself.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 February 2019 1:04:10 PM
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Dear Joe,

You sre suggesting punitive measures if you support
the immediate repatriation of "ïllegal" entrants
to the country thay have just left. They fled for very
good reasons. Choosing to take a chance on the high
seas in the remote hope that Australia may be prepared
to help them speaks volumes about the terrible conditions
in which they have been forced to live. Even if they
have not adhered to some imaginary queue, a compassionate
country would not promulgate even harsher laws to keep
them out.

The arguments against allowing asylum seekers who travel
to Australia by clandestine means the opportunity to take
up residence in Australia are weak. They are not illegal
immigrants and compassion obliges us to provide them
with assistance. The Western world has to accept a
large measure of responsibility for the conditions in which
refugees and asylum seekers find themselves. "Queue
jumping"(there is no queue) can be justified in cases of
need and is not immoral nor need it be considered illegal
if we are mindful of the spirit of the law to which
Australia has signed up.

BTW: No one has stated about feeling no compassion for
people spending decades in desert camps. Do not put words
into my mouth.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 February 2019 1:17:23 PM
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Dear Foxy,

I suppose I had Indonesia in mind, certainly not the dreadful regimes that they might have initially fled from. Like refugee camps elsewhere in the world, those in Indonesia may not be particularly comfortable but neither are they particularly dangerous for any refugees, except those from Papua.

People there can fill out the standard forms for legal entry into Australia, join the queue and take their turn. Whether they have ten thousand dollars, or can get it out of their friends and relations, shouldn't count: they take their turn, behind those who applied ten years ago, and fifteen years ago, and probably twenty years ago. And no, no penalties if they HAVE tried to get here by boat.

By the way, is it envisaged that - if, under Labour, illegal entrants are automatically approved - are they part of the annual refugee quota, or over and above it ? If they are part of the quota, I suppose those who have already applied, perhaps many years ago, can keep waiting.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 17 February 2019 1:46:16 PM
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Foxy,
These are the entry requirements to enter Australia

The current situation is Australian citizens do not require a visa.

New Zealand citizens do not require a visa (conditions apply)

All other passengers require a valid visa and a valid passport

There is no provision granting exemption to persons intending to seek asylum.
Posted by HenryL, Sunday, 17 February 2019 2:07:01 PM
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Foxy, " Choosing to take a chance on the high
seas in the remote hope that Australia may be prepared
to help them speaks volumes about the terrible conditions
in which they have been forced to live".

No it doesn't, particularly for those who have access to the money to try it on. What it does is speak volumes about the pull of access to our welfare system for ever.

As for lack of punishment, it should be reason for automatic removal of any chance of ever being allowed into Australia for any reason, for life.

I spent 3 years working on an old boat, & about $30,000 in 1960s money to get the chance to take my chance on the high seas. The boats these gate crashers come on are the boats that Indonesian fisherman take to the high seas most of their lives. They are not the most refined, but are eminently seaworthy, & in no way small.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 17 February 2019 3:15:34 PM
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It hurts, but the very real thing is Australian voters demand the boats stop, forever
That is the reason for their confinement
It is cruel, made crueler by activists promising they will get here if they continue to wait
In such a painful debate no total victory is possible for any side
The pain is real so are the deaths'
Morrison is using this, if he is not he will allow Shorten to make the same 2 minute recording and send it out with his
A united front on boats would forever stop them
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 17 February 2019 4:14:52 PM
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To those that graze on my side of the political fence
After reading my post above no doubt some put me in the to be ignored basket
My party members are, some, doing that
They, again some, dream of a happy bringing them here garden party
And neglect to understand that is another word for open boarders
A happy Australia, welcoming every one, Unfortunately we are a bit short on jobs for millions who have zero skills
We already do not pay our true needy pensioners and such, enough
Average Aussie wants the boats stopped
They vote
See the poll
Another three years of this government? or can we stop demanding every one think as we want them to
I charge the bring them here lobby with being the best tool the LNP has in its weapons box
And with inflicting continuing cruelty on those on offshore detention
Posted by Belly, Monday, 18 February 2019 6:35:06 AM
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Belly, "I charge the bring them here lobby with being the best tool the LNP has in its weapons box
And with inflicting continuing cruelty on those on offshore detention"

Why do you continue to talk such garbage Belly. Those on Manus, a really beautiful place by the way, have been offered repatriation to their place of departure, or going to the US. They are on Manus today, only because they choose to be.

Obviously the US welfare is not as generous as ours, hence their lack of interest in going to the land of the free.

Incidentally, my knee replacement has been bumped again. "Ring them on the 11Th of march to see if it has been rescheduled. Hell it might make it to a 7 year wait yet, & some clowns want to bring illegals here for medical treatment. Give me a brake.

Personally I don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks. If they are really worried about these illegals, they can take them home with them. Unless they are prepared to take them, they have no right to an opinion on the problem. After the European recent experience with North African & Middle eastern illegals, I'd say most of the general population would be telling us, don't let them in.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 18 February 2019 12:43:23 PM
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'Incidentally, my knee replacement has been bumped again. "Ring them on the 11Th of march to see if it has been rescheduled. Hell it might make it to a 7 year wait yet, & some clowns want to bring illegals here for medical treatment. Give me a brake.
'

give Phelps a ring Hasbeen. She has everyone fooled that she is so filled with compassion. Didn't you see the tears in her eyes. Pity about the numerous Indigeneous kids being abused and missing medical attention. These activist are really sickening and especially when they get into politics.
Posted by runner, Monday, 18 February 2019 1:58:46 PM
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Hasbeen face it mate, one of us is wrong on this issue
And it is in my view not me, if you read my post, not looking for reason to insult, you will see I clearly do not want them bought here
You too, if you look, will see I target a section within my party
I do so because they refuse to see Australians are wary of uninvited arrivals
Posted by Belly, Monday, 18 February 2019 3:02:40 PM
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Dear Belly and Hasbeen.,

The only alternative that we have is to remove the
real sugar on the table (to use a Tony Abbott phrase) -
our membership of the Refugee Convention. We would be
the first of the 145 member countries to withdraw.
And we would be turning our backs on genuine refugees
who have had no alternative but to flee their country
including as a result of wars in which we have participated
in Iraq and Afghanistan.

That has one small argument going for it. It would end
the hypocrisy of Australia pretending to be a splendid
international citizen through membership of the Refugee
Convention (we were one of the first countries to ratify
the Refugee Convention in 1954) while turning ourselves
inside out to avoid its obligations.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 18 February 2019 3:52:44 PM
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Belly I was referring to this bit of your post. "And with inflicting continuing cruelty on those on offshore detention".

That is the bit I was referring to as garbage, & it most definitely is. Those people are totally free to leave Manus, any time4 they chose. They are there only because they believe our bleeding hearts will prevail. They are enjoying a long tropical island holiday, while waiting for their main payout, Oz welfare.

As I mentioned, Manus is many peoples idea of heaven. A truly beautiful place & with the central highlands almost 2500Ft high, has a lovely cooling breeze wafting down to the coast at night. It is definitely one of the nicest places I have ever visited
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 18 February 2019 4:33:12 PM
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Foxy/Hasbeen I get no joy in speaking as I do on this subject
YES it is cruel to treat these people as we do
And NO never ever bring them here
That hurts too
But Australians have never forgiven self imposed enclave,s some bring with them
Tell me every day every hour, refugees have the right to want a better life
I will agree
But not boat loads of FINANCIAL REFUGEES mostly young men, demanding entry
My wish is for a more caring and sharing government, it will not be an open door government
It can not be voters will not have it
Tell me again how good multi cultures is, but tell me why integration is not
When humanity grows up, if we ever do, we will see the links mass migration right now, has to over population
We do very well with migrant intake, better than many
But can not forever and ever ignore this world must confront population growth not just redistribution of population
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 19 February 2019 6:08:55 AM
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Dear Foxy,

You suggest

"The only alternative that we have is to remove the real sugar on the table (to use a Tony Abbott phrase) - our membership of the Refugee Convention. We would be the first of the 145 member countries to withdraw. And we would be turning our backs on genuine refugees who have had no alternative but to flee their country including as a result of wars in which we have participated in Iraq and Afghanistan."

And what if the Coalition government (and then Labour) don't revoke our membership ? Business as usual. Let's try to be honest about all this:

*. there is an annual refugee quota, 20,000, plus refugees in special categories; on a population basis, Australia's intake is one of the highest of all OECD countries;

*. There is one doctor for every fourteen illegal refugees on Nauru, who are mostly young, fit men. Something like 74 medical people are working with a thousand people. I wonder how far across outback Queensland 74 doctors would be currently providing services for - a hundred thousand people across half a million square miles ?

*. Nauru is a sovereign country, and has the legitimate power to say yes or no about whether people there can be transferred to some other country such as Australia. No doubt they would like to be rid of the whole bloody lot. But so much of the Medivac propaganda seems to rest on the racist assumption that surely, proper medical treatment couldn't possibly be administered on a shirthole like Nauru.

*. why the hell can't medical personnel be flown to Nauru, if it was so necessary to provide special treatment, rather than the other way around ? Then they could provide attention to more than one patient for each plane trip. Let's see what Medecins sans Frontieres have today about it ll.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 19 February 2019 8:46:42 AM
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Dear Joe,

Most of the refugees on Nauru and Manus have been found to
be genuine refugees. They include families and children.
Many have died due to lack of available treatment. Perhaps
you need to read what the bill entails before brushing it
off as "propaganda." The following link may help:

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/07/australian-government-ignored-refugee-transfer-advice-from-its-own-doctors-for-up-to-five-years

A few inconvenient facts:

1) Australia has a refugee program
2) It has signed the UN Refugee Convention
3) We were one of the first countries to ratify the
Refugee Convention in 1954
4) Anytime we want to withdraw from it - we can
provided we give 12 months notice
5) In the meantime the Convention's provisions apply to us
and they have been enshrined in Australian law
6) They oblige us to offer protection to refugees who have
left their country and arrive here.
7) They leave it up to us to establish whether they meet the
definition of a refugee - that is, whether they have a
well-founded fear of persecution on the grounds of race,
religion, nationality, membership of a political social
group or political opinion
8) The Convention does not say refugees cannot come by
boat and it does not require them to carry passport, visas,
or identity documents.
9) It does say that refugees cannot be penalised for
the way they come here and they cannot be returned to the
country where they suffered persecution.

The onus is on us to ensure that these people receive the
care and protection as specified under the Convention to
which Australia has signed up.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 19 February 2019 10:52:36 AM
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well it comes down to this, voters are the reason we are being so cruel, care to tell me the lurch in government polling was not based on this issue
do we want conservative government forever
is it not true the world is seeing the rise of the right because of mass refugees/migration
yes stop the wars /terrorism in both African continent and middle east, Asian mass murder too
increase aid
but we can never ever house the millions who would come here if we opened the door
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 19 February 2019 4:12:16 PM
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the locals at Nauru could rightly conclude that Aussies are total mugs. Those horribly oppressed locals on Nauru should all jump on a boat and claim refugees status.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 19 February 2019 4:46:47 PM
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even i am confronted by my thoughts on this issue
thankfully they are nothing like runners
leave your view aside for a moment
if we said ok this country will raise our intake to 50.000 refugees a year
no make it a month
honestly tell me how many would wish to come?
millions each year
so what next,? aid, end wars, force better governments
consider are some country's war torn and in trouble having water and growing food, are they then over populated?
we can not fix problems by transferring them here
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 19 February 2019 5:21:34 PM
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Still find my thoughts confronting, but am I not to hold them
Even if they are true
Saw this mornings story about France, the rise of antisemitism
Nazi cross on Jewish graves, do not dare brand me racist
Labour, the spelling for British Labour, in crisis
antisemitism playing a roll
It is said, often, the very left has driven this?
Racism is never right, always wrong, A century from now, bank on it, those looking back will ask how did we not see the answer to mass movement of humans was not racist hate
It was always population growth
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 20 February 2019 5:51:09 AM
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The Coalition will win the next election.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 20 February 2019 3:30:42 PM
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ok remember that will you?
Right now another poll has Labor back around its year long polling
ScoMo is looking better, but can he get voters eyes away from the track record they have?
In the midst of the NSW election campaign, different back ground but it [held next month] may be telling
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 20 February 2019 4:21:43 PM
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Is Mise

a coalition without Turnbull and Banks would be blissfull. I wish I could share your optimism. I suspect if Morrison wins their will be a Russian probe despite the marxist getup clowns backing Labour. btw is Trump impeached yet? Thought not.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 20 February 2019 4:26:54 PM
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Belly,

Of course I'll remember it and either crow or eat same!!
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 20 February 2019 5:37:59 PM
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is mise/runner in Trumps post truth era you both serve ,well who, may be China maybe Russia
Or what ever country Trump flees to after he is forced out of office
That raw unfocused intent to target a left that in all truth never existed is telling
Trump may not be able to sell fridges to Eskimos but he has sold him self and his lies to you
Goebbels would be proud and a little envious
Our western world? like America no longer united we may be the biggest victims of a fraudster we call POTUS
Sidelining voters, because they do not think like us, saying the world is wrong but we are right, is amusing but reason for concern
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 21 February 2019 5:05:00 AM
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Belly,

"Trump may not be able to sell fridges to Eskimos but..."

He could sell fridges to Eskimos as it's a good market, fridges in Alaska keep food at a desired temperature.
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 21 February 2019 8:55:14 AM
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