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'I have been loyal...'

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"'I have been loyal': Greens stalwart Alex Bhathal quits in disgust"

http://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/i-have-been-loyal-greens-stalwart-alex-bhathal-quits-in-disgust-20190131-p50uq8.html

and as the ship sinks...
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 1 February 2019 9:34:18 PM
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"'I have been loyal': Greens stalwart Alex Bhathal quits in disgust"

Well, at least she's come some way towards some sense ! Many haven't been so silly to join them in the first place. Are our tax Dollars supporting this crowd ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 February 2019 9:48:02 AM
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Any party that has gross problems with governance and
process and presents as disunified will as history
has shown - suffer. Also a constant stream of negative
news stories will also take their toll. Which is a shame
as it discourages voters from having a wider choice at the next federal election.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 February 2019 9:53:51 AM
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Foxy,
having too many choices is what's causing so many problems in Australia's politics !
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 February 2019 10:57:19 AM
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It's about time the poor, deluded woman got the message. How many is it? Twenty elections that she has got the big no thanks, ma'am?

Like all the Liberals deserting the sinking ship for 'family reasons', knowing that there is a chance that they will lose their seats anyway, she has finally got the message. A slow learner, but she got it in the end. She and the Greens are just too weird for most people.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 2 February 2019 11:29:48 AM
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Individual,

On the contrary - people seem to be moving away
from the two major parties. Independents are
having unprecedented success.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 February 2019 12:06:27 PM
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Foxy,
yes well, it is good to see that people are gradually waking up to the failures of the LNP & the corruption of the ALP.
My only concern with the independents is that there are too many pointless ones. I for one wish dearly that the Australian Conservatives get the support of ON, Katter & Clive Palmer parties because between them they could be what this Nation needs to recover from the academic stupidity based policies of the past 5 decades.
As soon as I see some evidence that AC are serious I'll pay the $40 joining fee & I'd encourage any thinking citizen here to do the same. I need to hear & see AC on National TV state their policies on the old age pension assets test, on shaking up Centrelink & the ATO & incentives for people to work BEFORE the next election.
I particularly like their stance on putting a stop to the perks of ex politicians.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 February 2019 12:58:20 PM
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'I have been loyal...'
- Loyal to your party not the Australian citizens you sell-out.

"The dossier alleged a range of misconduct on Ms Bhathal's behalf, including bullying and intimidation. Among the allegations, Ms Bhathal was said to have stood in front of someone at a press conference, to have unfriended someone on Facebook and to have missed a deadline to have a leaflet printed."

Really?
What the hell is this exactly?
Is this some kind of a joke between snowflakes?
Is this supposed to be news or the idiot parade?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 2 February 2019 1:56:05 PM
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- Loyal to your party not the Australian citizens you sell-out.
Armchair Critic,
Spot-on !
I voted Labor once & LIB/NAT all other times. I have never been a Liberal but being conservative is in my eyes a helluva lot more moral than hypocritically progressive.
At least conservatives have the interest of the Nation at heart instead of their own ego.
Competence is a totally different ball game. When we have a Govt that has to ward off the sabotage of 49% of the population & work with a public service that is 90% against it then it really shouldn't come as a surprise that things don't go as well as they should.
The Greens are vermin in my book. Labor is 50% insipid & LNP got lost in the meaning of social equality.
This next election will prove that Australians will get the Govt they deserve. Let's hope most will come to their senses in time.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 February 2019 2:25:23 PM
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When the next elections loom have a look around for a party that has consistently stood up for their supporters and has never had its MPs tainted by scandal.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 2 February 2019 5:09:55 PM
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Is Mise,
You think there's enough time to such a party off the ground ?
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 February 2019 6:24:10 PM
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Individual,

There is already such a party.
-

Here's another who has been loyal, Jeremy Buckingham...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-20/jeremy-buckingham-quits-greens/10639004
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 2 February 2019 6:53:07 PM
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Is Mise,
Once brainwashed the chances of a full recovery are very slim indeed ! He DID join the Greens, not exactly a rousing endorsement. As a co-worker once said to me "the human mind is not like a rubbish bin that gets emptied every Monday morning". My loyalty was rewarded with broken promises but I don't believe I was brainwashed by the LNP & now I feel utterly let down.
The ALP just proved too openly incompetent & even corrupt to even be considered in my book.
I just have to have short discussions with the supporters of the ALP & it becomes clear in just moments that they're the professionals of hypocrisy.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 2 February 2019 9:46:53 PM
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Paul is a good bloke, he will not like my words
See the greens are in a death roll, for them not other party's
They always, have dreamers who will follow them
As Foxy has said independents and small party's bring
votes /dreamers
Dreaming of a better path
Yes too LNP and Labor can not dream, faced with the possibility they, either one, will govern, they dare not leave reality behind
They dare not dream the impossible dream, they must government well
Dreamers forget that, reality must not be ignored
Today's Greens in NSW for sure, are fighting their own internal battles, infected for decades by Socialists/even Communists, they rot on the vine of their own nasty internal war
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 3 February 2019 5:08:28 AM
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Hi Belly,

Sometimes political parties become victims of their own success. What can happen is a small external/internal clique while being unable to acquire any political authority in themselves seek to infiltrate a larger more successful group. We have seen this at times in both the Labor and Liberal parties, some would say its a phenomena taking place within the Liberal Party at the moment.

The clique without the majority realising it infiltrate the structure of the party placing themselves into internal position of authority. From those positions of authority the clique, out of all proportion to their numbers, then dictates the political direction of the party, in fact they try to control all aspects of the party. If the situation is allowed to continue unabated the destruction of the party is a certainty. The only remedy, and its a painful one, is for the majority to fight back, destroy the canker that has invaded and return to a position of what was successful, is now reinstated!

It is obvious on the Federal front that the Liberal Party is in disarray and fighting an internal war, some of it, is seen by the public, and of course they don't like it. Much of this infighting is kept from public exhibition, taking place just under the surface. On a regular basis this disharmony bubbles to the surface for all to see. The Liberal Party without a real word of explanation has replaced two Prime Ministers recently, and promoted the unexpected "Jim Hacker compromise candidate" in Morrison to the number one job. The Liberal party also has the added problem that external un-elected, extremely conservative forces, have most of the say as to how the party is run. Until that external force drops dead, the party is going to be in all sorts of trouble.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 3 February 2019 7:47:18 AM
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We've seen all sorts of parties come and go in
this country for a variety of reasons. The two major
ones have always managed to survive. Some learning
more quickly from their mistakes, others more
slowly - but nevertheless surviving. Younger voters
are now coming more into the mix and are being more
selective about who they vote for. Party loyalties
are not as important to them as they were to their
parents. Policies now do matter. Many young people
are very concerned about the environment, climate
change, and so on - so I wouldn't brush the Greens
aside so quickly - not yet.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 February 2019 9:34:40 AM
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Paul1405 said- What can happen is a small external/internal clique while being unable to acquire any political authority in themselves seek to infiltrate a larger more successful group. We have seen this at times in both the Labor and Liberal parties, some would say its a phenomena taking place within the Liberal Party at the moment.

Answer- The conservatives have always been part of the Liberal Party. In fact the Liberal party needs them to make up the numbers. Paul1405 is right that similar things have happened as to the Greens- but this is different. For twenty years or more "the conservatives within the Liberal party" has been saying that it has moved too far to the Communist Socially Progressive Left- now they have said enough- because their supporters have said enough. It's the fault of the Free Marketeers for not listening- now business will be decimated by the Communists- until the Small L Liberals (big money Liberals)/ Free Marketeers wake up and smell the coffee.

Once the Free Marketeers wake up and realise that they can make a profit from operating their businesses in Australia as long as they don't get too greedy- otherwise they will suffer.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 3 February 2019 10:03:03 AM
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Do communists still exist?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 February 2019 10:07:00 AM
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We had that conversation before Foxy in fact you hosted it and came to the conclusion "communism was still an issue contemporarily".
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 3 February 2019 10:16:43 AM
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CM,

No. that was not what I stated.

What I stated was that judging from the comments
made on that particular discussion - Marxism was
still an issue. You read your own
meaning into that.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 February 2019 10:26:04 AM
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What is needed from the major political parties in Australia 2019 to meet, and then satisfy, the social, economic and political aspirations of the vast majority is a high degree of conformity to the well established boundaries of acceptability. The gap between moderate politics, and what is seen as excessively extreme is very narrow in an Australian context. This extreme bears no resemblance to the historical extremes of communism or fascism.

The conservative edge within the Liberal Party, as identified with Abbott, firstly as prime minister, and later as the nemesis of his replacement Turnbull, the politics of which, but not limited to, was viewed as unacceptable by the electorate. Clearly through policy, Abbott, with the help of conservative cronies within, had made himself and therefore the party un-electable, a change to the moderate Turnbull was absolutely necessary. The change alone was not enough, the belligerent Abbott and co were left to their own devices. The result was the toppling of Turnbull in favour of the compromising Morrison. Too little, too late, in my opinion.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 3 February 2019 12:13:44 PM
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//Do communists still exist?//

Not in the way CM thinks they do. He uses his own definition for Communist that differs from the definition most people use - whereby a Communist is basically anybody who disagrees with CM. This leads to the interesting situation where you can have somebody who is both in favour of capitalism and a Communist, simultaneously.

It seems a bit weird and nonsensical to most of us, but there is a coherent internal logic to it. It just leads to difficulties in the effective communication of ideas when CM tries to talk about Communism with people who don't adhere to his own personal definitions, and leads him to estimate a much larger number of Communists in Australia than people who follow more conventional definitions of Communist would estimate.

I generally just ignore him when he starts banging on about commies. Since we're relying on markedly different definitions of Communist, there seems little point in responding because we'll just be talking at cross purposes.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 3 February 2019 12:35:22 PM
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Australia already has an overdose of politics. What's needed is for those in authority to grow some decency & manage what they got voted in for, namely the economy & services for this Nation.
It is our responsibility to keep them in line & we haven't got a hope in hell with the way the average Australian voter behaves in their demands for nothing in return, particularly those Australians on paper only.
Loyalty must be to the Nation not to the party that takes off the worker & gives to the public servant for what ? Reduce the pays of the public service if we want a return to a more sensible Australia.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 3 February 2019 12:47:52 PM
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Hi Toni,

John Hinckley Jr. fervently believed Ronald Reagan was a communist. I once watch an interview with an American White Supremacist, his name is forgettable, this guy believed Adolf Hitler was too liberal.
So its all in the perception.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 3 February 2019 12:54:25 PM
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Paul,

Good going, you have managed to avoid addressing the problems that the Greens face and diverted to the LNP.

Didn't you know that the Greens were losing members like a moulting chook losing feathers?
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 4 February 2019 8:40:26 AM
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Interesting material regarding Hinckley... Take care not to be sucked in to the "conspiracy theories".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley_Jr.
http://nstarzone.com/HINCKLEY.html
http://www.infowars.com/why-nancy-reagan-hated-the-bush-family/
http://ninjapundit.blogspot.com/2015/10/communist-and-kgb-links-to-jfk-rfk-mlk.html
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 8 February 2019 1:38:18 AM
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Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 3 February 2019 12:35:22 PM-

//Do communists still exist?//
He uses his own definition for Communist that differs from the definition most people use - ... This leads to the interesting situation where you can have somebody who is both in favour of capitalism and a Communist, simultaneously.
It seems a bit weird and nonsensical to most of us, but there is a coherent internal logic to it. It just leads to difficulties in the effective communication of ideas when CM tries to talk about Communism with people who don't adhere to his own personal definitions, and leads him to estimate a much larger number of Communists in Australia than people who follow more conventional definitions of Communist would estimate.

Answer- As Elon Musk says to understand a problem and to innovate you need to go back to first principles- and then reason up from there.

Patrick Deneen seems to have done this in his book "The Death Of Liberalism" by going back to the foundations of Liberal democracy.

Toni Lavis is correct that my definition of Communism is atypical to some- but political concepts such as Communism and Liberal are complicated. For example in Australia Liberal often means the "Liberal Party" (a "Right" party) in the US Liberal means the "Democrat Party" (a "Left" party).

Deneen tries to clarify this terminology by returning to first principles and referring to "Classical Liberalism" as envisaged by John Locke considered the person who invented the principles of contemporary free (Liberal) democracy.

According to Deneen- Locke Liberalism includes both Social Liberalism (Social Diversity) and Economic Liberalism (Free Markets).

"Monarchy" or "Traditional" or "Tribalism" on the other hand originates from non-Liberal principles. Even animals group behavior is a form of tribalism. So based on this analysis there is the "Monarchy vs Liberal continuum" and the "Social vs Economic continuum"- this is a two dimensional political framework. (Hard to represent without pictures on OLO)
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 8 February 2019 2:52:05 AM
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Locke as all people are- was a person influenced by the changes of the time. It was a time when villagers had been disenfranchised from the land by monarchs. I'm not an expert on Locke (he wrote Two Treatises of Government) but he appears to be supporting the monarchy of the day and it's policies and envisaging an age of mass community that we have today- because this would provide the rulers with resources for their activities- so much for those peoples homes. It was common at one time for the intelligentsia to have rich benefactors- so it is in their interest to support those with the power- it's still probably the case in a way- see the pharmaceutical industry and their links with the research community.

Back to the concept of Communism-

I'd probably agree with Toni Lavis that my definition of Communism is perhaps different than some- but I believe that after analysis as to the basis of "Communism" and the so called "New Left" perhaps some would agree that they are very similar- to the extent for simplicity they can be considered as clustered in the same region of the political spectrum.

The founder of the New Left is considered to be Marcuse who was a Trotskyist/ New Freudian. Leon Trotsky was a Communist and was a significant part of corporeal communism in Russia.

Some pervasive paradigms-

For Communists and the New Left the biggest issue is the class war between the workers and the employers- Marxism believed that nations, cultures, sexes would be broken down prior to a socialist world- these views seem to be embodied in the policies of liberals (rather than Conservatives or Traditionalists) but especially Social Liberals (those commonly labelled as left).
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 8 February 2019 2:54:01 AM
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Marcuse (new left) seems to have acknowledged that capitalism improved the economic status of the "proles" but they were still controlled but the elites. So in a sense Marcuse was from a Trotskyist Communist background but also accepted that the proles wouldn't support communism when their standard of living improved with capitalism so accepted at least some of the benefits of Capitalism- but as a means to achieve a Marxist world.

Unions in some cases can be seen as a form of tribalism- but when dogma is pervasive across the world it becomes globalism. There seems to have been ideological movement within the structure of the workers movements since the 70's towards dogma.

In summary as Toni Lavis has correctly said "He uses his own definition for Communist that differs from the definition most people use"- but he has failed to acknowledge the failure in the definition of political terminology in general usage.

Hopefully this has clarified one of my perspectives that Toni Lavis has highlighted.

Toni Lavis- Thank you for your feedback.
Posted by Canem Malum, Friday, 8 February 2019 2:57:25 AM
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