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The Forum > General Discussion > Is our Justice System Broken?

Is our Justice System Broken?

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A Privatized prison, in NSW is calling for government to pay it compensation.
Seems it does not have enough prisoners.
Social media is full with complaints about Magistrates and judges grant bail, to serious offenders, often seeing them offend again.
Some walk free without any sentence or very short ones.
Should the courts deliver the community's expectations?
Who owns private prisons? why can they do it cheaper than government?
Do they do it cheaper? are shareholders ownership in them public knowledge?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 8 October 2018 4:07:07 PM
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There must be a law , if they breach contract the MPs will do time in the prison.
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 8 October 2018 5:15:29 PM
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//Should the courts deliver the community's expectations?//

Yes they should. My expectation is that they will deliver sentences in accordance with the rule of law, not the baying of the mob. The latter seems but a short step away from vigilantism and lynching... in other words, anarchy.

//why can they do it cheaper than government?//

I'm pretty sure they can't. It seems to me that the cost of privatised prisons must equal the cost of incarcerating people plus the private companies profit margin; whereas the cost of public prisons is just the cost of incarcerating people.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 8 October 2018 5:38:35 PM
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Don't be silly Toni, I can only assume you are on a government payroll somewhere to even entertain such an idea.

For example when Telecom was privatised they reduced the workforce to less than half that that required to run a government business, while increasing the output of the workforce. Not only that, they reduced the cost to customers, while making good profits.

The management ability of bureaucrats is highlighted by Queensland rail. Years of total incompetence was required before any of the useless fools were forced to jump.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 8 October 2018 6:18:41 PM
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Is our Justice System Broken?
Yes ! And now it is being dismantled !
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 October 2018 7:09:48 PM
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Justice system took a huge downturn when parents stopped disciplining their children. It turned many teachers into child carers and multiplied violence many times over in the community.
Posted by runner, Monday, 8 October 2018 7:20:29 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

You really need to stop with the daft old bugger routine.

As a privatised company Telstra repeatedly and consistently refused to start upgrading the network to fibre optics either FTTN or FTTP.

This forced us to stump up around $60 billion to drag this country into the 21st century.

Where once we were among the world leaders under the old Telecom, Australia instead got left with a substandard communications network under the privatised incarnation.

Remember were were once exporting our telecomunications technology to other countries. Now that is a shadow of its former levels.

And it wasn't the private sector that rationalised the Telcom work force. Mel Ward who was the last MD of Telecom took the workforce from 93,000 down to 69,000 during his tenure but strongly opposed the breakup of the organisation.

Now a fair proportion of the workforce is contracted out, the call centres in the Philippines are driving ordinary Australians nuts and the management keep doing dodge investment deals which keep losing 100s of millions of dollars.

http://www.afr.com/technology/telstra-takes-a-500-million-black-eye-on-silicon-valley-streaming-firm-ooyala-20180201-h0scvy

Meanwhile telecommunication services in the bush have suffered for years from the lack of service technicians because that is where the profits aint.

But your ideology doesn't give you any chance to acknowledge any of this. Private good, public bad and the greater good be damned.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 8 October 2018 8:14:26 PM
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Justice system took a huge downturn when parents stopped disciplining their children.
runner,
You've got that back to front. The Justice system prevented parents from disciplining their children & society has taken a massive & probably irreparable turn for the worst.
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 October 2018 8:55:43 PM
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Well how many of us have cringed after a repeat offender is given bail?
And offends again while on bail.
how many have shown frustration at youth offenders being released on bonds multiple times?
Do we ever see matters of rape/sexual assault see the offenders go on to repeat the crime.
Privatized prisons?
Wanting compensation because they do not have enough prisoners, are we mad?
Why are some, seemingly rightfully, sent to prison for 40 years and others, same crime, 15 years with an even earlier release
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 6:05:24 AM
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Wanting compensation because they do not have enough prisoners, are we mad?
Belly,
Well, not we but the authorities definitely are.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 6:23:27 AM
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Indy it is worse than that, please believe in some states in America charges have been made Judges get kick backs.
For? sending extra prisoners on minor charges to privately run prisons.
The old Grafton NSW prison, known for it tough reception of prisoners was shut.
Because? we did not have enough prisoners.
Now a privately owned one is being built there.
What next
A private police force
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 8:57:38 AM
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runner,

Right on the mark.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 9:05:11 AM
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Dear Belly,

There is a system that is broken and it isn't so much the justice system but rather our capitalist system.

Capitalism is not a bad system when the checks and balances are in place to move its excesses.

The responsibility for imprisoning someone should rest solely with the government. A person's liberty is being taken away from them and the role of managing the incarceration should not be contracted out, especially to the lowest bidder.

Private prisons are an anathema and should be done away with.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 10:33:25 AM
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I can tell of a state informing it workers about privatization.
After being picked, by workers, as one of six state worker representatives on the peak body of the then Roads And Traffic authority training began.
Both union and RTA dureing that RTA training it was said in an effort to increase the number of firms, big enough to both contract and do so in an open market.
Losses in costs, productivity, and quality would take place.
Think about that
Socialism for? private enterprise
After the first contracts came about, it was a shock to see, owners of those firms, had worked supervising those very tasks,,, for the RTA!
Time passed, I became one of the flood of voluntary? redundancy takers.
Then a union official, looking after along with many others, my ex workmates
From a storm in to a fire storm! those firms, overnight, went broke, owing massive sums to workers.
The protections of these days not then in place
wait there is more
The next day, under a different name, most of those privatized firms reopened.
we can run government enterprizes on budget, if we dump the air wasters we pick to run them,behind privatization some who have no right to are taking us for a ride
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 12:05:01 PM
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Dear Belly,

I'm not sure about our justice system being broken.
However, I often question the leniency of some of the
sentencing. But I don't know enough about the subject
to speak about it. However I don't believe in the
privatisation of our jails. No way. The privately
run detention centres that we read about are horrific.
And have bad reputations and little or no accountability
or transparency. So I can't even begin to imagine what
our privately run prisons would be like.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 2:46:52 PM
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Foxy all views have value and I too am concerned about the very different sentences handed down.
Too bail, often in domestic violence cases and the offenders have even murdered the victim while on bail.
Those who hand down the law,some times in later life, face court them selves.
Serving police officers,in NSW at least, sometimes have criminal convictions but continue to serve.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 4:41:18 PM
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Well we tried, a long list of complaints about justice short sentences no sentence, early release, bail given to dangerous people,the list could have been about three posts long see you in another thread
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 10 October 2018 2:56:50 PM
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What sort of character are the hierarchy in the Judiciary ? I don't think they're in touch with those whose lives they're having so much impact on, be it negative or positive.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 11 October 2018 8:14:59 AM
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Is our Justice System Broken.
Bloody oath it is!
The reason it's broken is because the govt has been on a cost cutting mission for decades.
What confuses me is, whilst they have been selling off everything, by privatising it, thereby not having to spend billions on the services they sold off, why is it that we are still being ripped off with ever increasing costs, on EVERYTHING.
Not just the private services but govt ones as well.
Such as car registrations, fuel, and the list is endless.
I would have thought, once having sold these things off, we would at least see a normalizing of costs to the consumer, but no we are still being gouged more and more year by year.
So I want to know, where is all this money going, and believe me, it's a shipload of money, not small change by any means.
The justice system is broken when a moronic police commissioner comes on the TV and says stupid things like 'we are not here to educate the public, the public should know the law'.
I remember fuming at this prick.
If I had been there I'm sure I would have gone for his throat.
What an unthinking idiotic thing to say.
My response to that is; 'OK smartarse, your the top cop, let's see YOU recite EVERY stuffed up law in your job'.
This is the kind of idiocy we have to contend with.
We all know the idiot would barely be able to cough up even 20% of them.
As it takes at 50% for any pass rate in society, I would suggest that he is a failure.
Another broken part of the justice system, is; In the constitution, it was very clear that anyone charged with an offence, could only be 'judged' by a jury of twelve of his peers.
So then, the current system is illegal, if not for the fact it was conveniently changed by the 'system' without any consultation with the public.
Because it was in the constitution, the only way to 'legally' change it is by referendum.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 11 October 2018 10:36:31 AM
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ALTRAV has you ever asked why so many who plainly should be in prison are let walk free?
Or thought maybe a limited, because of costs of prison,is in place for how many can be sent to prison?
I have and something is very rotten
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 October 2018 10:53:25 AM
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Belly, I've wondered that, and a great deal many more things.
Why do you think I get so animated and upset with commentors or people who think everything is rosey and 'she'll be right'.
If we would stop pandering to these 'fairies' and dreamers and bring back a few of the 'old' ideals, like compulsory National Service, be allowed to administer physical punishment to our children, allow teaching institutions to do the same if the students 'played up'.
These practices are deemed abhorrent to the weaker of our generation, so we have allowed ourselves to be brought down to their level, which is by it's very nature, 'un-disciplined'.
I would incarcerate anyone who caused another physical harm, reason dependent, of course.
I come from a generation where the youth addressed someone older by there surname, and not by their first name.
How can we expect the younger commentors to be mature and able to reason, when they were taught to 'say and do whatever they liked, because they were old enough to think for themselves and were answerable orbeholding to no-one but themselves'.
The one thing these idiots forgot was toteach them how to do all these things that they were now 'old enough' to do.
And so we have ended up with this failure of a society who's so far up itself, it hasn't seen reality in years, and at this rate is not likely to ever see it either.
Society is resorting to the days of old when even the Roman empire got so comfortable and cocky with it's ruling the known world, it let down it's guard and began seeking more pleasurable pursuits, with it's orgy's and 'good times', and what happened it finally collapsed into this seething mess called, Italy.
Belly, yes, 'something IS very rotten' here, and I believe, unless we sideline the do-gooders, or throw them in front of the baddies, so they feel the true state of our social system, and they come out of the experience with injury or death, will they begin to curb their ignorant and mis-guided beliefs and attitudes.
Posted by ALTRAV, Thursday, 11 October 2018 12:20:08 PM
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Take Melbourne ALTRAV, please take it, while a Sydney sider once, it is a more livable place than the harbor one.
Yes history if full of white gangs even bikers gangs, but right now, walking those streets, kids know! know! they can get a few let offs before being put away.
Why?
Why not use confinement to teach prisoners to read write live with other people.
How can a group overrule the Federal Minister when he says send some back to the country they came from?
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 October 2018 4:58:02 PM
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Thanks for your comments ALTRAV.
Posted by Canem Malum, Thursday, 11 October 2018 10:52:07 PM
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We will talk again about this issue, it is a basic truth no matter what politicians say, most things are shared by both sides of politics.
Yes given our wants and wishes the middle and both side would get lougher terms in prison for most.
We, I truly think, would question how some got to become judges and magistrates, even demand some be removed.
How we could ever separate the good cop from the few ego driven rat bags is beyond me.
Why privatize? surely only failure to put key performance indicators and make them pass or out you go, is done to falsely prove it is cheaper to sell what we own?
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 October 2018 5:56:07 AM
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looking at the corruption & incompetence in authority makes one shiver when thinking of how this would be when privatised.
I just hope our present politicians will work on developing some sense & prevent this privatisation.
Posted by individual, Friday, 12 October 2018 9:15:28 AM
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The reason that prisons are privatized is that with many things, private enterprise can provide the same services for a significantly lower price.

SR,

The reason that the privatized Telstra declined to build Rudd's gold plated NBN is because it had sod all chance of any decent return on the expenditure which was borne out by the vast over expenditure by the incompetent Labor government.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 12 October 2018 10:13:59 AM
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two tins joined together with a long string was Turnbulls wish for the NBN
Under riding instructions from Murkey Murdock,[in defence of Fox] throwing mud at Labor ignores the truth.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 October 2018 11:24:41 AM
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Guys, the source and reason for ALL our problems are, POLITICIANS.
Which turn out to form Governments.
Do not believe what you hear and see.
These guys are ALL in it together.
Our individual party preferences aside, for a moment, and you will see that it is THEIR personal interests that are the priority to them.
They need to be kept in check or they will end up doing exactly what they want, at our expense.
Every time we see a change in PM's or govt, we are handing the keys to the 'piggy bank' over to another thief.
Nothing changes except the individuals or thieves.
The problem as I see it is obvious.
The PEOPLE.
Unlike me, people are lax and lazy about their financial well being, with such stupid comments and attitudes like, 'that's what we pay them for', and a myriad of other deflective comments.
All the while giving the govt free range over our money.
Let me be clear.
They do not seek to become a minister of the govt for a piddly four figure income.
No they are after the bigger prize.
The lucky few get a portfolio.
Now that's where the big bucks are.
We're talking potentially, millions.
Every time a major deal or project or purchase is made by the govt, I can assure you, BIG money is channeled into entities which are ultimately owned or controlled by them.
Any attempt to trace any such activity will result in nothing.
You don't think these guys are smarter than that.
Good ole' J B Peterson (can't remember the spelling) the former QLD Premier used a different scam to get his 'kick-backs'.
The ruse went like this;
The successful contractor would 'bad-mouth' good ole' JBP, who would then declare he was going to sue them for defamation, or slander or whatever.
Suddenly there was an out of court settlement.
The amount was never disclosed.
The media and I'm pretty sure even some of the public figured it out, but it was 'legal', so nothing could be done about it.
It's like hiding in plain sight.
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 12 October 2018 12:22:17 PM
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Churchill, Ghandi, the first black leader of South Africa, great politicians, we have not seen the last of such men.
We the voters let standards slip by paying more attention to what we plan to do on the weekend than who we should be electing.
Shortens promise of something like an independent commision against corruption is a step towards better out comes
Posted by Belly, Friday, 12 October 2018 4:57:45 PM
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Belly, not you too?
There will be NO 'independent commission against corruption'!
Whatever will be promoted as such, will be 'smoke and mirrors'.
NEVER believe anything these liars say.
I even dismiss the things they DO.
Remember these mongrels are only there to 'feather their own nests'.
The banking Royal Commission is also a ruse.
When I hear that the fine is in the millions, compared to the BILLIONS they STEAL off us, it tells us that the govt is in it up to their necks.
I am not as stupid or gullible as most Aussies and given the opportunity I would savage the banks, for their obvious greed and averace conduct, as well as the obvious contempt towards the public in general.
If the govt was true and just, they would charge them along the lines of the tax office.
If we get caught out by the tax dept, we cop a fine, usually at least twice the amount we owe and then a percentage of the over-all amount.
So the total of the fines handed down to the banks, should be in the billions, and I don't mean one or two billion.
Anything less tells me that there is collusion and corruption between the govt and the banks.
So Belly, do not take anything at face value.
I would advise, when it involves the govt, believe NOTHING and question EVERYTHING!
Posted by ALTRAV, Friday, 12 October 2018 7:27:01 PM
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ALTRAV well yes it has been bound and tied and dumped by the side of the road.
BY politicians ON BOTH SIDES, remember, its founder Nick Greiner was its first victim,wrongly as it turned out.
KNOW too a sitting Magistrate saw it bound tied and dumped again.
Because it caught her out lying and showed a long term relationship with at least one criminal.
BUT yes it is locked away from touching the very filth we want it to, we however must not throw the baby out with the bath water.
We *need* such a thing, we *must* demand and never stop demanding it be free to do its job.
IF we win Eddie Obeid will not be lonely, about ten new friends every year, from all sides of politics will join him
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 October 2018 5:49:57 AM
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Aren't they all supposed to be servants to/for the public ? So, why do we the Public, constantly provide these integrity lacking mutts with tickets to that disgusting bandwagon ?
Let's push for referendums on halfing the quota of Academic bureaucrats & replace them with people from the private sector.
We need people with a grip on reality at the helm not these theorising idealists with an overdose of greed & self importance.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 13 October 2018 8:44:24 AM
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Indi, I'd really like to agree, but humans being humans............... Where is this place where we can choose honest and mature, yet humble people to do our bidding?
Heck we can't even hire people to do menial tasks without them, skimming, scamming or just plain stealing off us.
You see this is one of the main reasons I like the Monarchy.
They do not have a hidden agenda.
They are already wealthy, so we know they are not going to steal off us.
They were 'born' into the job.
They have been 'training' for the job all their lives.
They are 'the parliament'.
Electing people like commoners and academics or even business leaders, has proven to be a failure.
Everyone has a personal agenda.
Everyone is trying to benefit themselves financially, so giving them the keys to the safe, is NOT the answer.
Our Justice system IS broken, and has been so for most of Australia's life.
So unless or until Australians get off their collective arses and have a revolution or get more involved with what goes on in govt, our justice system is going to get even worse.
Posted by ALTRAV, Saturday, 13 October 2018 10:50:35 AM
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indy in America the job of handing down justice often is sold, and even more often the end result is criminals on both sides of the bench.
I refuse to believe only private enterprise can fix it.
Good laws enforced by good people are not imposible but like ALTRAV said we need to demand better
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 13 October 2018 11:06:49 AM
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Altrav & Belly,
That's why we desperately need a National Service. Morrison's stance on young unemployed people to work on farms is a good start. No need to break up married couples when there are so many singles to get out & about.
This work for the Dole should be made a "Do your time for the Nation" or "Incentive" scheme. Many young people would find what they're looking for by being in such a scheme. It would cost way less than the present system & would reward the victims of our badly managed economy rather than persecute them as it does now.
For far too many years now Governments have destroyed what little incentive there was. It's now time for incentive.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 13 October 2018 6:59:50 PM
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individual you have pushed that national service wheelbarrow for a very long time.
As you know we once had it.
Tell me what benefits we lost in giving it up.
Let me remind you how the Vietnam war saw dead national service kids in a war the west never intended to win.
A nation that requires its long term unemployed to serve the community, yes for sure.
But if you think national service is a cure all in my view you need to prove it
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 October 2018 6:12:26 AM
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Tell me what benefits we lost in giving it up.
Belly,
Surely, you're having me on ?
Posted by individual, Sunday, 14 October 2018 7:15:11 AM
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indy if we ever got together no doubt we would get along
But please do not tell me I am the only one to question your love of national service.
And mate do not throw words like your last few and me, like sand in my eyes to blind me to the truth, you have no answer to my question.
Justice if any exist, has little impact from national service.
Here I must resort to using dirty words *progressive* see nothing can convince me we must do things, in any area, just a we always have done them.
Rather than having a magistrate bend the law, giving bond after bond to some one who should be in prison
Why not have three community elected peoples it in judgment and hand it down?
Why not give the local people the right to remove them if they fail the community.
And as part of a reform process yes inflict some form of service to the community on offenders not the military however
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 October 2018 11:09:25 AM
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you have no answer to my question.
Justice if any exist, has little impact from national service.
Belly,
I beg to differ. National Service has a proven track record of resulting in better, more responsible citizens.
Just look at how society has become intolerant, greedy & uncaring since teenagers became young adults without any discipline in their changing years into adulthood.
Getting rid of National Service got rid of discipline.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 14 October 2018 12:17:44 PM
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Belly, Indi has a point.
National service was not only about training people in case more soldiers were needed in times of conflict, but their primary objective was to introduce discipline at an appropriate stage in the making of a worthwhile human being and his contribution to society at large.
If you want confirmation of the need for discipline, just think of what these morons get up to in their 'gap year'.
The introduction of the 'gap' year, was a license to learn how to get into or cause trouble, from an early age.
Those with a mature approach to their future, found work and never looked back.
The rest just wasted time and life, and learned how to live 'on the dole'.
The problem with today's lot is they have grown up with a sense of entitlement, which is totally undeserving and unjustified.
In the govt's rush to win over people, and their votes, they have, over the years, given in to these petulant and childish people and their demands, and that's the main reason we find ourselves with laws and the execution of those laws, totally useless and unworkable.
I hear govt's spew out the stupid mantra of 'world's best practices'.
What a load of BS!
We barely come up to the world's 'worst' practices.
The first step to fixing our broken justice system, is ignore the soft cock, do-gooders, completely sideline and get rid of the 'greens', and then start removing some of the laws and rules which inhibit discipline and therefore, reason and common sense.
Another factor is get rid of the ministers who try to 'buy' votes by offering to pass laws that do nothing to enhance and benefit people's lives and living standards, without causing grief to the rest.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 14 October 2018 3:11:30 PM
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Gentlemen I beg to differ our last lot of national servicemen sent boys to war.
And sent us back broken men, even now some are still killing them selves and first hand understanding of that.
What you in the end claim national service does is no more than good parents should have done long before sending them to war
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 October 2018 4:41:18 PM
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The Army teaches self sufficiency- to live out of your pack- it teaches team work and how to follow instructions. It teaches improvisation, resilience, but most of all discipline. It teaches leadership and how to manage an organization.

This is a good foundation for members of our society.

More needs to be done to funnel these productive people into productivity after the army in civilian life. The full life cycle of a citizen from cradle, to youth, to adult, to family, to old age- all of these five stages has a place in society and interact with each part to make society strong and self supporting. Leadership is about supporting this structure. I believe that there needs to be a balance between freedom and discipline- Aristotle had a different view of freedom/ liberty than John Stuart Mill. Freedom is a privilege that is earned. Those societies that are only for pleasure will die- maybe that's what the Socialists want- maybe that's what other groups want too.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 14 October 2018 5:00:53 PM
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Belly,
That is the unfortunate & unavoidable part of fighting for freedom. Career soldiers know & accept the risks because apart from preserving freedom there are many rewards once back in civil life.
Truck drivers, mine workers, Police in fact a whole host of workers in various industries take risks & pay the ultimate price. Thankfully, that is not the norm but a sad, random fact nevertheless for those who pulled the shorter straw.
Being drafted for active service is something non-career defence personell would understandably be deeply concerned about but what needs to be taken into account is that most wouldn't be too upset if someone else got selected & yet they can still take part in the spoil that is freedom.
The point of National Service is formost to instill a sense of belonging, responsibility & respect.
war service is last on the list. Were there more of these values the risk of war would also be very low.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 14 October 2018 6:38:46 PM
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CM, once again your words are uncontroversial, and cannot be challenged.
I am concerned by the mindset of the 'do-gooders', as it is a fact that their concept of being nice, respectful and offering 'soft' solutions are in fact a result of their own lack of courage in facing up to a situation which requires them to administer 'unpleasant truths'.
So because they feel more comfortable pushing a 'nice' mantra, rather than the uncomfortable and confronting, yet, appropriate one, they are giving the wrong message or advice.
An example of this is when that Maggot Lisa Wilkinson, uttered excrement on national TV, by making an announcement as a result of a girl being raped and killed, in a park, at night, that, instead of females taking more responsibility for their actions, like NOT walking through a park alone at night, her ignorant, arrogant response, (because according to her, ALL men are rapists) was that mothers should teach their boys to 'stop raping girls'.
Now whether she likes it or not, she said it, it's out there now, and she will forever be admonished and judged by that dangerous piece of advise, which I hope was received like a spoon of vinegar, and immediately rejected, along with her.
Wonder why females get attacked?
My point is that quite possibly, parents today are trying to be 'friends' with their children, and in doing so are not disciplining them for fear of alienating them.
This may also be the reason for another disgusting lack of discipline topic, the calling of their elders by their first name, even family members like Uncle's and Aunt's.
The do-gooders lack of courage to discipline their children is the direct cause of ALL our youth problems of today.
Those children who are clearly responsible worthwhile members of their elk, don't need to be brought back into line, but the rest certainly do.
One way is National service, and the suggestion of sending 'boys to war' is an over-reach.
If a male is so weak of character then he should not have been sent in the first place.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 14 October 2018 7:07:43 PM
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Thanks for your feedback Altrav. We need to break down the propaganda that has developed over the last 40 or so years. Much of it could probably be written on a A4 sheet- it represents the value socialists place on the cultures of thousands of years.
Posted by Canem Malum, Sunday, 14 October 2018 8:34:12 PM
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The failure of the justice system to deliver the community's expectations.
The failure of not my child parents to love the kids enough to show them discipline.
And the failure of politicians to even consider supplying better.
Are not good reasons to force national service on any one.
Army's exist for war/defense, not childminding/training
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 October 2018 6:19:22 AM
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Army's exist for war/defense, not childminding/training
Belly,
Chld minding/training is for parents & teachers. Young adult training is for organisations of discipline for the common good.
We now have the proof that that not having a national service is merely playing into the hands of Centrelink & the unions.
Posted by individual, Monday, 15 October 2018 6:52:54 AM
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indy not sure, honestly, what you are on about, it is all good however my friend because I understand you do not know either
Simplistic blame it on any thing is not constructive.
Are you aware if you intent linking the law with national service and unemployment you get very near communism?
Our system has no such links and in truth welfare is a different subject.
If you wish to verbally flog those unfortunates lets do it in a dedicated thread
Both sides of politics show no interest in national service in a time without war, rather than send our kids to die they should send old fellas like you and me first
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 October 2018 11:17:05 AM
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Not sure why, had thought we lost the thread many posts ago, let it die .
But still unsure why I want to take on your hard headed views, ones you can never quite fill out, but you have me hooked
UNIONS
From the day of the tolpuddle martyrs, they ended up here as convicts you know.
Workers wanting a share of the wealth they created for others have been subject to not always true charges
IF we never had them we may still be serfs,working six days a week for little pay, hungry enough to send our kids in to the coal mines at age eight.
Care to disagree? yes unions use propaganda, including this country's biggest and most powerful union the LNP!
They are only one of tens of rich men's UNIONS from farmers fed to master builders they exist, just like trade unions, for the interests of their members
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 October 2018 3:02:25 PM
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rather than send our kids to die they should send old fellas like you and me first
Belly,
I agree but I'm hopeless at video games.
Posted by individual, Monday, 15 October 2018 4:40:05 PM
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Belly, you are too emotionally invested in certain topics, and because of this you are not thinking clearly.
You mention the unions are there to get more of the money from the company that the workers made wealthy through the work THEY did, therefore deserve a bigger income.
Some have said the company should even give them a share in the company.
Either case you are out of touch.
In either case, if you want more money either in shares or income, then here's a little tip as to what you must do before this is ever gonna happen, unless the boss decides otherwise.
Before you even think about the cretin thieving unions anywhere, you and your mates, put your houses on the line, mortgaged to the hilt.
Then spend every waking minute thinking and doing work related things.
Forget about a social life, your time, even on weekends will be focused on the business and trying to figure out ways of keeping it alive or making it make enough money to just keep up the maintenance and service of the equipment, let alone pay for the insurance, power, super, oh and let's not forget about the wages.
I'm pretty sure I've left out a lot of other things, but knowing you don't want to hear that I'm not wasting any more time on such a pointless, irrelevant bunch of thieves and con-men, as UNIONS!
So to summarise;
If you want more pay, start your own business, borrow the money, put everything you own and most of what you don't yet own, as security, then spend the rest of the time 24/7 constantly worrying about making enough money to make repayments, let alone pay the staff and service/repair gear so that you can keep doing exactly what your doing over and over, till one day you find you've been doing the right thing but everyone still said it wasn't enough, and you are forced to close the doors because the unions have squeezed and pushed you to the wall.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 15 October 2018 5:21:03 PM
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indy your posts consist of mind bubbles without substance or reason ok with that but please explain, put some meat on them.
ALTRAV in your opinion.
See it is not true just because you say so
This forum is not just about the opinions of one side.
IF you ever sat at the enterprise bargaining table, on either side, you would soon learn no one side can win.
In fact both sides would give ground, imported from Thatchers England EBA enterprise bargaining agreements work.
But no side is gifted, both give before taking.
My defense of unions above was only to remind, of what has been achieved and it is not calling for other than a fair go, a chance to bargain,not beg, for workers who in the end are just us
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 October 2018 5:57:00 AM
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Belly,
without discipline we get what we have now. Useless hangers-on multiplying daily.
Uninons once did a great job but have now become saboteurs of economy & mentality.
people do something right & then proceed & even rush to over-step the mark.
Govt too rewards the conniving & persectes the genuine. There must be reward for good effort not for selfish effort.
Two years of national service is a small price to pay for a good & safe life in a good & safe society.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 16 October 2018 7:05:19 AM
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Belly, what you describe is not productive, because here in Australia we have a very aggressive and 'protection' minded out of control, union mentality.
The unions ARE responsible for our hardships.
There is absolutely no doubt of that.
In their 'race to the bottom', they have done nothing to help the worker because the cost of living to income ratio has gotten worse over the years.
What they have done is lined their own pockets, at the expense of Aussie workers and Australia as a country, by upping wages, our internal costs rose with it, and our exports dropped dramatically because the unions pushed the cost of labour so high, we have become un-competitive in world trading.
Belly it's remarkable how dumb most people are.
Did you or any of your mates stop and think, just for a moment, businesses need workers, so why would they not want to have a collaborative working environment?
I'll tell you why.
Because these scum-bag unions had to make it look like they were necessary, so they started using 'mafia' style tactics such as strikes and whatever else to get their way.
In doing so they were making themselves look good, that's all.
It's just like the banks.
They simply pass it on to the customer.
No different, the unions push up wages, the manufacturer adds it on the cost and passes it on, so that when that same worker with his pay increase goes to buy the same item next time, the price has gone up.
So we turn to exports.
No it's too expensive, so no exports.
Thanks for nothing.
Belly you can shove your EBA, your kind of mentality is pure evil and belongs with the thugs and criminals because the sh!t Australia is in right now is down to guys like you and your beloved unions.
Why you haven't figured this out for yourself and taken a big stick to your union reps is beyond me, but at least it gives all of us a window into you and your mindset so we can adjust our comments accordingly.
Posted by ALTRAV, Tuesday, 16 October 2018 10:06:20 AM
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ALTRAV nothing including truth will divert you from your bias.
It however is baseless.
Right across this country small business men and women call on good unions to ward off the thugs and mugs, CFMEU to you,
Truly no boss could ever harm the union movement more, even as much, as those brainless left overs from the 1940,s
We are not all like that
the thread has become a flog workers/unions/Labor one, but I am comforted by the sure and certain understanding truth became a victim about 40 posts ago.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 October 2018 11:08:03 AM
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Belly said- "We are not all like that, the thread has become a flog workers/unions/Labor one"

The reason people are attacking the unions/ labor is because they've sold out to the communists- we are the canaries in the coal mine- hopefully the miners keep tabs.
Posted by Canem Malum, Tuesday, 16 October 2018 1:55:59 PM
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