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The Forum > General Discussion > CO2 done it.

CO2 done it.

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Well what do you know? Recent surface ocean temperatures in the North Atlantic, & subsurface to 700 meters have fallen in recent years to their coldest in over 30 years. Other peer reviewed research has found Greenland has shown a surprising ice mass gain, & Arctic sea ice is rebounding. Well it is surprising, or annoying, to global warming gravy train riders.

Now of course if it were increasing temperature, our warmists would be shouting that CO2 “done it”, after all it is the planets thermostat switch according to them. In that case, this cooling must be caused by that same CO2.

Well folks I don't believe that for a moment. It is quite obvious that this cooling is down to the sunspot going on strike. After all every time the sunspots have gone on holidays, the planet has caught cold.

I suggest you start planting your gardens with frost hardy plants. We appear to be heading to a new Dalton, Spörer, or Maunder Minimum.

Yep that is when the Thames river frost fairs were held on the tideway of the River Thames at London in some winters between the 17th century and early 19th century, when the river froze.

Start burning coal folks, The CO2 won't do much, but at least you will be warmed by the fire.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 10 July 2018 6:45:54 PM
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Well, the people nobody listens to have been predicting another Ice Age. It will be interesting to see how many of the crooks living off the CO2 hoax will be rattling their begging cups to cash in on that as well.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 10:03:48 AM
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no way around it those who try to convince me global warming is a fraud in the end add to the view it is not, both hotter and colder weather, are predicted results and right now as it was here last summer, are breaking hottest day records
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 11:25:56 AM
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Hey Belly,
Climate change is a normal thing and has been happening as long as the earth's existed.

How many humans does it take to create the heat of one volcano?
How does the Peri Reis may exist if humans have never endured climate change?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 1:57:16 PM
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Belly old mate, if you don't have the math to understand how CO2 actually aids convection in cooling the planet, not much but a little, try history.

Every time the sunspots have gone quiet, the planet has cooled. As in my post, the three named periods were caused by a reduction in sun spot activity. It is possible to see just what happens as the suns magnetic field reduces, & history shows it to be a fact.

If you think it is getting hotter, just ask the yanks & eastern Europe how their winter was.

Yes our summer was hot. They always are when the monsoon fails, as it did this year, a bit hot for daylilies here, but don't confuse weather with climate.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 2:19:04 PM
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Let me ask this, can you name a river or creek you swam in as a kid that is no longer fit to do that? have we all seen the photos of plastic floating in the sea? are there less trees that you once saw in nearby bush, have we established humans do change things?I remain convinced man has changed the environment, not near always for the better and we have changed our weather by our actions
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 3:03:03 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

How's it going old cock?

Have you recovered yet from your poster boy Scott Pruitt having to resign? The very epitome of 'the swamp' he misused EPA funds for first class flights, did a sweetheart real estate deal with a lobbyist, tried to use his position to secure his wife a job and was under a number of investigations for ethical breaches.

Just your kind of bloke wasn't he mate.

Now your are flapping the gums over a drop in temperature in the North Atlantic, and area highly impacted by currents from warmer areas and you are trying to say this is indicating a cooling planet?

Even you can't be that daft.

Go look at the Global Mean Estimates based on Land and Ocean Data supplied by NASA.
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/

Please find me a single graph which is downward trending.

The eternal hope you live with that global warming is not real is kind of endearing in one sense but kinda pathetic too.

Time to face facts.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 3:53:49 PM
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//If you think it is getting hotter, just ask the yanks & eastern Europe how their winter was.//

//... but don't confuse weather with climate.//

Sound advice, Hasbeen. One cold winter doth not a climate make.

Nor doth one hot summer a climate make. Basically, people's memories aren't a good record when it comes to climate data. That's why you need to look

//Every time the sunspots have gone quiet, the planet has cooled.//

Right, and you don't think that the abnormally low temperature associated with the Dalton minimum had anything to do with the volcanic winter effect caused by the eruption of Mount Tambora?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tambora#Global_effects

Sounds legit. [sarcasm]

The variation in solar irradiance between solar minima and maxima is approx. 0.1%. I think that the hypothesis that periods of abnormally low temperatures are the result of volcanic activity rather than solar activity is better supported by the available data.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 6:24:39 PM
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//How many humans does it take to create the heat of one volcano?//

Volcanic activity causes global cooling, not global warming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_winter

I'm not suggesting it's a good idea to try and trigger volcanic eruptions to combat global warming.

But the supervolcano underneath Yellowstone Park is due to go off with an almighty bang any day now:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/natural-wonders/quakes-and-eruptions-spark-talks-of-yellowstone-super-volcano/news-story/b1c4804f8e70fc50b6795acdded3e5fe
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 6:29:26 PM
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Hasbeen, you push false science with every post.

So, the northern Atlantic.

Substantial CC caused ice melt in the Arctic and Greenland produces a colder than layer of fresh water on the ocean. Warm water coming up from the Gulf of Mexico is salty - normal sea water. Warm salty water is heavier than cold fresh water. The surface current from Mexico is slowing, stopping in the not too distant future. So much of Europe and Eastern US / Canda is experiencing colder weather because of diminishing warming from Gulf stream. So the cooling you are talking about is driven by Greenland and Arctic warming - Cimate Change writ large.
Posted by Tony153, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 8:33:48 PM
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Yes I've read that theory Tony153, but there is not a single piece of evidence yet produced to justify it. All pie in the sky stuff, typical of green garbage.

Belly do a bit of research mate. There are about twice the number of trees in Oz now, than at white settlement. Huge tracts of previously pasture improved country are going back to scrub. They don't go back to the park like country our early explorers encountered, developed by aboriginal burning practices, they go to impenetrable garbage scrub, unfit for man or beast. Satellite imaging shows dramatic tree thickening in most grazing areas of Oz.

I asked my cross river neighbour about his 10,000 acre grazing paddock showing serious thickening, when we were repairing fences washed away in last years flood. He said they had given up. The chemicals previously available are now banned, & the paddock can not earn enough to cover paying labour to do the work necessary to keep it productive. His brothers all over 70 want to sell as none of their kids are silly enough to be involved in agriculture today.

Twenty years ago we used to train our eventers over there, but the brambles would cut you to pieces if you tried riding through it today.

I heard just last week it has been sold to Chinese buyers, after 115 years in the same family. Another unintended consequence, of greeny meddling in things they know nothing about.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 10:55:51 PM
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Hey Toni,
"Volcanic activity causes global cooling, not global warming."
Sorry my mistake, I forgot about how on a hot summer day people used to head on down to the LAVA LAKE for a quick dip to cool off.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 11 July 2018 11:33:07 PM
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Hasbeen, stunning! to use your own failure to understand much at all to remind me of my shortcomings! think you may have read we have more roo,s not more trees
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 12 July 2018 8:48:59 AM
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//Sorry my mistake, I forgot about how on a hot summer day people used to head on down to the LAVA LAKE for a quick dip to cool off.//

OK, fine, every geologist in the world is wrong and you know better than them because they're all so thick that they've forgotten to take account of the fact that lava is hot, herp derp. But you're the smartest man alive and you know everything about everything. I only volcanologists knew as much science as you, the they'd know that lava is hot too.

Sometimes I really do wonder what goes on inside that melon of yours, AC.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 12 July 2018 9:13:45 AM
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Toni,

"Right, and you don't think that the abnormally low temperature associated with the Dalton minimum had anything to do with the volcanic winter effect caused by the eruption of Mount Tambora?"

Tambora went off in 1815 while the Dalton minimum ran from the late 18th century through to around 1830 (some say 1850). While there is little doubt that Tambora caused a further fall in temperatures for a year or three on top of those already occurring,it didn't cause the fall.

"The variation in solar irradiance between solar minima and maxima is approx. 0.1%. "

That may be true (the quantum is disputed) but also possibly irrelevant. The more favoured theory doesn't revolve around irradiance but about the strength of the solar winds. Svensmark's theory, for example, postulates that weaker solar winds allows more galactic waves to reach the earth which in turn stimulates more cloud activity. Clouds in turn cause cooling because it gives the earth enhanced albedo.

Meanwhile in the land of that naughty Mr Trump, emissions continue to fall.... https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-08/co2-emissions-hit-67-year-low-trumps-america-rest-world-rises

How that can be possible when he's pulled of of the Paris agreement is unclear <sarc>
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 12 July 2018 12:02:59 PM
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Thanks mhaze, I really couldn't be bothered trying to explain any of this to these dummys. Most of them probably already know most of it, but have skin in the argument, & don't want to admit the truth. A huge number are hitching a ride on the gravy train today. If the funds for global warming research stopped flowing, thousands would no longer have a job, & half our universities would be broke.

As my mother used to say, "There is non so dumb as those who don't want to know". To day we probably have to add, or those who know, but can't afford to admit it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 12 July 2018 12:44:46 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

When your mum use to say to you "There is non so dumb as those who don't want to know" I think she knew full well who needed to hear that message.

I think your mum would have been pretty switched on. Pity that little pearl of wisdom didn't stick.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 12 July 2018 3:37:26 PM
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Yep the regressive gw religion is shameless. Though every prediction they have made in the last 30 years have failed and yet they still persist. Meanwhile as we pay massive costs for electricity India, China and the US laugh at us. I never thought Josh Frydenberg would sell out to such nonsense. Turnbull, Shorten, Bishop and the Greens I understand as they obviously need a religion to follow.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 12 July 2018 3:47:12 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You really do struggle with this stuff don't you.

Fracking is the reason that US total emissions have dropped.

“From 2005 to 2017, coal-related CO2 emissions declined by 835 million metric tons (39%), and petroleum-related CO2 emissions declined by 289 million metric tons (11%). Natural gas emissions, however, increased by 285 million metric tons (24%) over that period. The underlying energy consumption trends that resulted in these changes—mainly because more electricity has been generated from natural gas than from other fossil fuels—have helped to lower the U.S. emissions level since 2005 because natural gas is a less carbon-intensive fuel than either coal or petroleum.”
http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=34872

Yup that is right, the US moved away from coal and into natural gas which produces notably less CO2 per BTU.

Plus they have a virtual ban on energy exports.

Here we send a huge proportion of our gas overseas while a bunch of throwbacks want to kick start a coal resurgence.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 12 July 2018 4:40:10 PM
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No one answered when I asked this question;
Temperatures rise BEFORE CO2 rises !
Why ?
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 12 July 2018 7:44:41 PM
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SR,

"You really do struggle with this stuff don't you.

Fracking is the reason that US total emissions have dropped."

Well I don't know why you'd think I struggle with this stuff when I didn't actually comment on why the US emissions were falling.

On the other hand, here's what I wrote on these very pages some 18 months ago...

"The nation most successful in reducing emissions over the past decade is the USA - yes the great satan. Over the past decade the US has reduced total CO2e emissions by 10% and per capita emissions by 16%.

There are several factors leading to that decline but the major reason (according to the US EPA et al) is the replacement of coal with natural gas which has become cheap and ubiquitous due to fracking revolution. Yep, fracking leads to emission reductions."

I wrote that so long ago that your knowledge of this is probably based on what I previously passed on.

Dear oh dear SR you really are a berk.

Bazz,

"Temperatures rise BEFORE CO2 rises !"

Well I'm not entirely sure that's been fully established. It seems that the ice cores show it to be true but I don't really think that we can be sure about that since the accuracy of the core data is questionable. Additionally the alarmists argue that even if temperatures started to rise before CO2 rose, the increasing CO2 caused even more temperature increases.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 12 July 2018 8:35:40 PM
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Hasbeen,
The surface ocean temperature determines frequency of emmitted IR - very measurable by satellite. Plus, upwards of 4000 Argo buoys in worlds oceans. Each one captures temp and other data, repeating every two days - descending 1000 meters, then rising to surface to send data to satellite. So, ample data on temp profile in northern Atlantic.

Mhaze, ice ages and inter glacials determined by Milancovch cycles, where each cycle takes thousands of years. Suns strength varies with the stage of a cycle. The earths path around the sun is elliptical. And earths rotation axis moves, also imposes a multi thousand year cycle. Northern hemisphere temp drives beginning and ending of ice ages. Ice age starts when summer in Northern Hemispere is furthest from the sun. As warming starts, as northern hemisphere temp rises, biological activity increases. And more CO2 generated. And the thermal blanket created by the CO2 provides exponential increase in warming.

Our earth should today be slowly heading towards an ice age. But CC overriding Milancovich.
Posted by Tony153, Thursday, 12 July 2018 10:48:06 PM
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All most Australians are interested is the fact that we have the highest elrctricity prices in the world, and we have them because our dimwitted politicians believed the rent-seekers rubbish about CO2. All this shonky NEG talk is about EMISSIONS ONLY: you cannot persist with cutting emissions AND expect to lower prices. Everything that comes from the mouth of the minister, Josh Friedegg, is a blatant lie. But there is nothing new about Australian politicians and lying.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 13 July 2018 10:22:30 AM
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ttbn,
Yes, we have very high electricity cost. Reason: free market at its rampant worst. Various costs due to excessive infrastructure costs, and gaming the system by not turning gas generators on until price sky high. And, very complex billing algorithms preventing easy price comparisons. Nothing to do with renewables. If new large generator required, solar and wind much cheaper than coal. And with well designed network, cloud and or no wind in one location, electricity available from other sunny and or windy locations.
Posted by Tony153, Friday, 13 July 2018 5:28:57 PM
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Dear mhaze,

You asked a direct question “Meanwhile in the land of that naughty Mr Trump, emissions continue to fall....How that can be possible when he's pulled of of the Paris agreement is unclear”

I answered.

If you knew the answer already then that's your lookout.

However that isn't what I accused you of not getting, it was this;

“Here we send a huge proportion of our gas overseas while a bunch of throwbacks want to kick start a coal resurgence.”

And you really are one of them aren't you.

“By far the best and most economic solution for Australia is to go full-on coal of which we have several hundred years supply, and sell as much uranium to the rest of the world as they want to take.”
Posted by mhaze, Tuesday, 24 April 2018 1:17:44 PM

Clown.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 13 July 2018 5:45:11 PM
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No, Tony. It's not the free market doing anything. It is the government meddling with the free market - subidies etc.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 13 July 2018 6:59:01 PM
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Poor SR,

"You asked a direct question.."

You thought that was a question?

Oh dear,with comprehension skills like that its little wonder that you misunderstand so much.

Then you go on to miscomprehend your own post ("However that isn't what I accused you of not getting"). Or was that just a failed attempt to change the subject from one which wasn't going so well for you? That's a question!

_____________________________________________________________

(an)Tony,

I'm not entirely sure why you'd give me a lesson on the Milankovitch cycles (note the spelling btw) since it was I who showed you, or your alter-ego, about these cycles about 4 years ago.

While what Milankovitch did in terms of sheer mathematic computation was astounding, I'm not sure that your confidence that the cycles explain the causes for ice ages is justified by the data.

But what any of that's got to do with the discussion at hand is something that only ant can understand.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 14 July 2018 10:38:52 AM
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"Here we send a huge proportion of our gas overseas while a bunch of throwbacks want to kick start a coal resurgence".

Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 12 July 2018 4:40:10 PM

Thank god for throwbacks. Apparently the ACCC is all throwbacks. After an exhaustive study & report they are now reporting that without new coal fired power we are stuffed. With any luck disingenuous types like Steely will be overridden, & their self serving garbage will be consigned to the bin of history.

What is your angle Steely, it must be you have some skin in the game,. how do you get a quid out of windmills or solar?

Tony you were going OK, & almost had the full story until this bit of less than half truth garbage. " And more CO2 generated. And the thermal blanket created by the CO2 provides exponential increase in warming. Our earth should today be slowly heading towards an ice age. But CC overriding Milancovich".

If you had continued with water vapour causing an effect on retaining some heat, you would have actually got a good pass mark. As it is with this bit of contrived greeny disinformation, blaming a trace gas CO2 for doing what water vapour does, you win the con man award. Then the bit about "exponential increase in warming" just shows how much you have to try to gild the lily. Ratbag warmists have been screaming about tipping points in global warming, where the only tipping point is warmists into insanity as their con job fails.

You obviously do know the facts, so why the con job at the finish. I can only assume that you like Steely have skin in the game, & are gaining something by twisting the facts to fit a con game you profit from.

Disgusting the pair of you.

It is times like this we can be happy that Turnbull is such a flip flop merchant. He will now have to go with Abbott & the Monash group to save his miserable hide. I do hope our warmist enjoy watching it.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 14 July 2018 1:21:39 PM
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SR wrote: "Plus they [the USA] have a virtual ban on energy exports."

Well there's wrong, very wrong, spectacularly wrong and then there's SR.

There is no ban, virtual or otherwise. The US exports approx 7.5 million barrels per month of oil, Hydrocarbon Gas Liquids etc. (Source: EIA).

But if you just want there to be a ban so that you can criticise Australia for not having a ban, then facts be damned, eh SR?

Oh and while I'm here, given that, as you now know, US emissions are down due to fracking, I'd guess you're totally on board with Australia getting fully on-board with fracking here also?
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 14 July 2018 3:53:04 PM
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Trees, don't mention the bloody word, trees.
Here in the West someone must have done a damn deal with the devil.
You mention that we have fewer trees than somewhere in the past.
Well I can tell you that does not apply over here.
Decades ago someone decided that no-one, including farmers were allowed to cut down any more trees.
Then came this stupid carbon capture crap or whatever the hell it was called, and that was based on the planting of trees.
All I can say is what a bunch of morons.
They are planting trees by the thousands, and I mean everywhere.
Median strips, verges, anywhere they can find a space to put one.
The sheer stupidity of these people is beyond belief.
They are even planting them down the middle of normal roads so we are frighteningly close to them as we drive down the road.
Driving through the metropolitan area today, and years from now, you think you are in the bush,everywhere you turn, TREES.
They have even broken their own by-laws to accommodate this sick ideology.
Whatever it is.
I don't know what's going on, but I'll bet it has something to do with someone making money.
Posted by ALTRAV, Sunday, 15 July 2018 12:39:04 AM
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One last little thought for Steely & the other dills, who think we export too much gas at too low a price.

Without the huge volume low price export contracts, we would not have any of that gas. The cost of the infrastructure to harvest the gas required that huge export volume to be viable. Our usage alone could never have funded it.

Without the royalties flowing from those exports we would have much less to fund universities, bureaucrats & welfare.

Better a little of something, than a lot of nothing, as we would have if that gas was still sitting uselessly underground & ocean.

There is plenty of gas to go around. All you have to do is stop buying ratbag greeny votes with fracking banns, & harvest it where it is wanted in Victoria & NSW.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 16 July 2018 10:40:59 AM
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//Driving through the metropolitan area today, and years from now, you think you are in the bush,everywhere you turn, TREES.//

Well that's a new one. Never encountered somebody with a fear of trees before. Apparently it's a thing, though: 'hylophobia', from the Greek 'hylo' for forest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/10289366/13-of-the-most-unusual-phobias.html
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 16 July 2018 11:20:28 AM
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Toni, it's not a phobia or a fear of trees.
It's just common sense, of which govt's have none.
This is a 'metropolitan' area, urban, not rural.
Trees are a huge problem for everyone.
Apart from regular reports of falling branches and near misses, well not for the cars parked beneath them, there are too many problems with too many trees in the metro area.
Plant as many as you want in the rural areas, by all means, but just stop planting in suburbia.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 16 July 2018 11:35:44 AM
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Speaking of cheap energy, second hand solar systems are worth some consideration, depending on the use required.
You can buy a 5kw inverter for maybe $300 and 250w panels for about $40 - $45 each, meaning you can build a 5kw system for about $1200.
More panels in Australia than people now.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 16 July 2018 11:53:12 AM
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Toni Lavis, if you are not scared of trees you are a dill. Our gum trees are about the worst in the world at dropping large apparently healthy branches.

We had a bit of a blow through here, a thunderstorm, in February. This was not a cyclone, or anything like it, but the damage was pretty great.

A tree came down across the road near a local service station. My son was the second car to stop at it. After another 2 cars stopped another tree came down behind them. Now totally trapped branches from still standing trees kept hitting all the cars. My sons ute, the least damaged cost his insurance $7500 to repair.

As they were trapped he called us as the blow petered out to go down with a chainsaw to clear enough to get the cars out. That is when we found the 5 trees down across the 2 kilometres of our road to the main road. With a dozen locals & 5 chainsaws we could just get through to the main road in about 2 hours. Another hour & our sons ute, & other cars were free.

We were only on the edge of it, but it took 2 of us 5 hours top clean up at home.
It took 4 days to get power restored to everyone.
2 houses still have tarps over roof damage from falling branches, & a couple of cars are still wearing cosmetic damage.

Trees are dangerous damn things, particularly when greeny fools in councils try to prevent clearing the most dangerous.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 16 July 2018 8:29:26 PM
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