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The Forum > General Discussion > A thoroughly inglorious day for our nation

A thoroughly inglorious day for our nation

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I have just learned that Australia joined the US in voting against a UN Human rights Council resolution to send investigators to examine the events in Gaza and the West Bank. It is hard to convey how angry and disappointed I am that our government chose this course of action. We were the only one of 41 other members of the council to do so. Other members included many European countries who either supported the resolution or abstained from it.

Until recently Australia has historically sided with the rest of the world in rightfully condemning the occupation of Palestinian land by the Israelis. Of late we had been abstaining instead of supporting resolutions trying to hold the Israeli government to account, but this is the first time to my recollection that we have voted no.

I spend a bit of time on Reddit and this action has bewildered may people from other parts of the world, including many Americans. They understand that the US has traditionally gone out of its way to protect Israel from criticism because of historical ties. For Australia to take this position shows us to be a sycophantic and pathetic.

There are a great many things for which I am proud of being an Australian. This is one of the few times I have felt real shame. We lost a part of what it meant to be Australian today, standing up to bullies, supporting the under dog, recognising injustice and calling it out when we saw it. but most importantly we lost a large measure of independence and world wide respect, today we became the 51st state.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 19 May 2018 11:04:36 PM
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Steele,

I second your sentiments complete. Truly a sad day, when we Australians without the slightest humanitarian concern for the plight of innocent people in Gaza and the West Bank would support in a sycophantic fashion the United States who are condoning the criminal actions of Israel against the Palestinian people. Indeed, a day of shame for Australia.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 20 May 2018 8:27:47 AM
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Twaddle.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 9:42:45 AM
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I am very pleased that Australia is standing with our main ally on something to do with terrorist Palestine, which isn't actually a country, and which is sworn to wipe out Israel, also our ally and bulwark against Islam. I am also surprised that our loony Left PM is going along with it. He has just opted out of the opportunity to back our allies, the U.S and Israel, in shifting our embassy to Jerusalem.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:01:03 AM
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Yeah it is pretty shameful.
It might've been considered weak or gutless to abstain; or turn a blind eye,
- Though one could look at that another way and argue is wiser and respectful to 'Mind one's own business'.

But supporting the interests of the 'party committing said immoral acts' against a UN investigation is pretty low, you can't really avoid it.
And in some ways it almost inadvertantly makes us a party to or supportive of the acts themselves.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:49:00 AM
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Dear Steele,

Sadly, once again, Australia has placed a higher value on
Israel's vision of its historic destiny than on the
humanity of the Palestinians.

Our Prime Ministers
have always talked about believing in the "emergence of an
independent Palestinian state," surely they must know that
Western support of Israel will not bring this about. Israel
has been calling the shots since 1967 and clearly believes
that the USA will support its actions no matter what Israel
does.

Israel does not have the right to act unilaterally. It
does not have the right to wreak havoc and destroy the
prospects for a peaceful solution. It is a great shame that
we don't have the kind of leadership in this country that
would emphasize the fact that neither side has a monopoly on suffering,
but only one party has the power to end the
occupation and to recognise that Israel and Palestine are
historically destined to share the same homeland.

While we
continue to support the actions of Israel - this will not happen.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:04:46 AM
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"While we
continue to support the actions of Israel - this will not happen."

Nor whilst others continue to support the Palestinian terrorists.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:25:27 AM
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One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 20 May 2018 12:40:29 PM
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Whatever it is that they want, the make believe country of Palestine will never achieve it while it they adhere to Islam and continue expressing a desire to wipe Israel of the map. They are a mere client of Iran, with no claim to nationhood.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 1:51:54 PM
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I note that one of the usual apologists for Islam has advised us what Israel does not have the 'right’ (that meaningless word again) to do, when Israel is obliged to defend itself and people from Palestinian Islamic terrorists who, with the urging of Iran, have vowed to destroy Israel. Israel is “destroy(ing) the prospects for a peaceful solution”! What a load of hypocritical, ignorant claptrap, Foxy. There is no possibility of peace because of the very people you side with. You are getting more like the typical Left wing bigot all the time. As for your criticism of our “kind of leadership”, it's not that long ago that you were lauding that same leadership for stabbing the hated Tony Abbott in the back, and singing the praises of Turnbull himself.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 2:17:44 PM
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It is not the Palestinians trying to destroy israel.
It is israel trying to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians.
They have been at it for over a hundred years.
Shame on Australia for supporting the murderous israeli quest to steal all the land west of the Jordan river.
Posted by mikk, Sunday, 20 May 2018 3:09:14 PM
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Armchair,
> One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.
While there is sometimes some overlap, that's generally false. When they attack civilians they are terrorists. Their supporters may claim them to be freedom fighters, but that's no more than cognitive dissonance. In most cases they do enormous harm to the cause they purport to be fighting for.

However, SteeleRedux is right: Australia voted the wrong way! What most of the people on this thread fair to comprehend is that NOT ALL PALESTINIANS ARE TERRORISTS and in the instance the UN voted to investigate, MOST, IF NOT ALL, OF THE PEOPLE RECENTLY KILLED BY ISRAEL WERE NOT TERRORISTS.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 20 May 2018 3:09:16 PM
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Aidan,

I'll leave it to others to correct you!!
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 3:21:57 PM
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I am not an "apologist" for Islam. Or any religious
extremists. I simply do not slag
off at all followers of any religious group.
Extremists exist in all religious groups.

As for Israel?

How can a supposed democratic state
maintain a brutal occupation over another people for so many
decades. This makes reconciliation next to impossible.

We must move past using dehumanisation and deligitimisation
as weapons to be wielded against the Palestinians.

Don't get me wrong - I support the rights of Israelis to live
in peace and security, but not at the expense of the
Palestinians.

Why do we constantly hear about Israel's need
for "security", as though that justifies erecting walls,
checkpoints and barriers, and the occupation of Palestinian
territories and land. Why is the world told to believe that
the Palestinians should only accept peace on Israel's terms?

I am beginning to come to the realisation that many in the
West simply don't like Arabs or Palestinians very much
and therefore believe that the Israelis have the right to
treat them as they wish.

As for my critique of the current Government's stand on this
issue. Mr Turnbull appears to have little choice in the
matter. An election is not far away. The Zionist lobby is
very strong not only globally but particularly in this country
and the US.

Australia seems to follow the US in their belief
that the US will come to our aid if Asia becomes a threat to
our security. However in this case I find it disturbing that
our government's leadership is at the mercy of the US, the Conservatives within their party,
and the Zionist lobby.

I would have thought that an objective investigation into the
conflict in Gaza would have presented views and causes
from all sides -
and would have helped towards better understanding of the
conflict.

It appears that the Government is not concerned in
resolving this issue. And that just may lead to their
eventual downfall.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 20 May 2018 3:24:48 PM
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Foxy,

The Palestinians were attacking Israel and some of them were using lethal weapons (as shewn on TV footage) so a few got killed doing what they wanted to do; so what?
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 3:56:27 PM
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There is no equivalent of Islamic extremism in Christianity. Other religions are not under discussion.

The “occupation” is necessary for Israel's defence. If Palestinian terrorists would stop attacking Israel and building tunnels into Israel, the defence measures might not be necessary.

The Palestinians do not want peace; they want the destruction of Israel. Ignoring that fact will not change the situation.

Many people in the West don't like Arabs and Palestinians because of their constant attacks on Israel and their threats to wipe that country of the map. Why is that so hard to understand?

Zionist lobby. Seriously? You are running out of excuses when you have to dig that old one up.

Of course it is expected that America would protect us. They are our only ally in the region, and of course we should support them and Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. It is outrageous that any Australian should side with people who hate not only Israel and America, but Australia too.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 4:38:02 PM
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ttbn,

Well said!!
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 4:50:40 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Indeed.

And what is so thoroughly embarrassing it is usually a rag tag bunch of Pacific nations who fall in behind the US when it vetoes UN resolutions condemning the actions of Israel. They do it because of their high level of dependence on American support to survive. In one sense their actions are understandable however this time none of them are on the HRC. It was just left to us to vote with the US.

This is what we have now been reduced to, a Western Pacific nation which feels so dependent on the support of the US that it felt it had to overturn decades of doing what is patently doing the right thing of joining the rest of the world in attempting to hold Israel to account.

I'm gutted.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 20 May 2018 5:56:30 PM
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Dear ttbn,

You need to look up Christian terrorism.
Before you post.

There's enough information on the web.

Criticising Israel does not translate to hate. And,
saying so is vile. And an old chestnut.
But singling out Israel for
opprobrium and international sanction - out of all
proportion to any party in the Middle East - is
dishonest. And totally ignorant.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 20 May 2018 6:02:47 PM
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Dear Steele,

It is very disappointing in how Australia voted.

I had a great deal of admiration for Mr Turnbull
and for Ms J. Bishop as well. I guess it is all
about politics. Very few people would dare to
criticise Zionist wrongdoing in the past, and
Israeli policies in the present without being
deterred by false allegations of anti-Semitism
or hatred. It's a shame that we are not able to
have a searching discussion on one of the most
important debates of our times. Still who wants
to stoop down to the low- level that these discussion inevitably
swing down to on this forum.

I wish you luck with this topic.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 20 May 2018 6:13:12 PM
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This week the situation for the Palestinian people got worse, at least sixty Palestinians have been killed by the Israelis, and hundreds injured, many of those inured according to the WHO will be permanently disabled.
Trump rewarded Israel for its monstrous behaviour by moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
While the Israeli army was killing defenceless innocent Palestinians, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was toasting the moment with Ivanka Trump and her husband Jared Kushn, and with a broad grin Netanyahu proclamation: “Dear friends, what a glorious day! Remember this moment!”

Incensed by Netanyahu’s wide celebratory grin, Bradley Burston, a correspondent for the liberal Haaretz newspaper, penned the following: “What kind of man is this? What kind of man says these things? Does these things? What kind of man grins like a kid in a candy store, knowing that, in Gaza, the death toll is rising by 10 Palestinians every hour? Knowing that, just outside Gaza, thousands of Israelis are under grave trepidation for their families, their neighbours, their future,"
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 20 May 2018 7:02:07 PM
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I believe the 'grin' is the same as that displayed by the Nazis when told about the ongoing eradication of the Jews in the gas chambers.
The Zionists have obviously improved on the model with a slower and more effective process from a supposed respectable distance.
This should galvanize shock and horror from the Jewish faithful with all manner of justifications coming forth similar to those used by the Nazis.
Posted by Special Delivery, Sunday, 20 May 2018 7:16:25 PM
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Paul,

"While the Israeli army was killing defenceless innocent Palestinians"

Hardly defenceless, TV coverage shews some of them using lethal weapons and they were not compelled (or were they?) to attack Israel.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 7:23:31 PM
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Stones versus bullets...and guess what the bullets win...You are right Issy but are stones as lethal in the same way as bullets are?

Can you aim a stone in a sling shot thrown over a long distance the same way an army rifle can be aimed?

All the armies should go back to sling shots and stones because Issy thinks they are as lethal as guns...lmao

Time for your next lie down Issy...lmao

There is only one solution to the Palestine/Israeli conflict and that is the two state solution.

It is time the International community stopped Israel from building on Palestinian land and move forward with the solution.

How Mediocre Malcolm and his cohorts could have voted against inspectors is unbelievable.

He just sold us out as Aussies wanting a fair solution to both parties to this ridiculous situation and the, ongoing ignoring of International Law.

Malcalm looks a bit Trump-like these days... Can he fluff his hair up a bit to help us see his gradual slip into that mental and principles void!

What an outrageously wrong decision by our Government...
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 20 May 2018 9:18:50 PM
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Honestly, what would you personally do?

Assume you are living in a village where you were born.

Your great-grandparents procured the land of your village some 70+ years ago: how they did so is disputed - some say that it was by right means, others say that it was by wrong means and the truth is probably somewhere in between, though you may never know because you were not yet born at the time and your great-grandparents have long left this world so you cannot ask them.

Now your neighbours are unhappy about your presence in your village: not just unhappy, but so extremely unhappy that they vowed to kill you and your family and demonstrated it not only with words, that they would do whatever it takes, even at the cost of their own lives.

You therefore built a long fence to stop them, complete with expensive electronic sensors to tell you when your neighbours come close. Your neighbours are also digging beneath the fence to get to you, so you also invest in sophisticated equipment to detect and destroy their tunnels.

Now your neighbours are marching, most of them unarmed, to get to the fence, destroy it, then walk through to get you. They significantly outnumber you and if able, they would strangle your throat with their own bare hands, even your babies. Also, the harvest season is near and your fields of wheat that you worked hard to grow are nearly ready. Even while your neighbours are on the other side of the fence, they fly flamed-kites across the fence that set fire and destroy your crops - just imagine what they would do to you and your home if they were on your own side of the fence.

So what would you personally do?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 20 May 2018 9:23:11 PM
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Dear Foxy,

I lost any respect I had for Bishop when she labelled anyone who supported the BDS movement as anti-Semitic.

“It’s anti-Semitic. It identifies Israel out of all other nations as being worthy of a boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign? Hypocritical beyond belief.”

For our foreign minister to label Australians as anti-Semitic because they support a peaceful means of putting pressure on a country flouting international law was shocking and reprehensible.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 20 May 2018 9:26:42 PM
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Paul,

"All the armies should go back to sling shots and stones because Issy thinks they are as lethal as guns...lmao"

Slingshots in Australia are as lethal as guns because they are firearms under the Howard Gun Laws, or do you think that that is a bit stupid?

What other weapons were being used under cover of all that smoke?

Israel was under attack, the only wonder is that more Palestinians were not shot dead, the majority of bullet wounds were apparently to the legs which proves that the overly tolerant Israelis were not shooting to kill; under the circumstances the wonder is that more were not killed, a fact that probably made the Hamas planners unhappy.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 20 May 2018 9:36:53 PM
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Is Mise,

Thankyou.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:11:24 PM
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Yuyutsu,

An interesting analogy. I don't think it will touch the ideologues, unfortunately.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:17:53 PM
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Yuyu...The first thing I would do if I was you would be to actually learn the history of the conflict...

Then I would think about it for a couple of years so that it sank in.

Then I wouldn't come online telling half the story. I'd know the actual story.

You forgot to mention the settlements that continually steal the Palestinian land. You forgot to mention how the lands were forceably taken from the Palestinians.

You forgot to mention how sticks and stones don't match rifles and bombs.

Then if I were you once I actually knew something about the issue I would take the middle position and work on a solution that works for both sides.

Watch a few independent videos on the conflicts history and then comment. '

ttbn is very rarely correct on anything so you really are starting on the wrong side of the fence...lmao

How would you feel if someone one day walked onto your property and just took it? I suspect you'd be very angry.

What would you do?...lmao
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:27:44 PM
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“It is quite the puzzle for Islamic apologists: how to cast Hamas' eagerness to march a lemming-like army of its own people, even small children, into border fences and Israeli guns? The solution: OVERLOOK ISLAMIC SCRIPTURES’ EXHORTATIONS TO GRIEVANCE AND BARBARISM”. (Peter Smith, Quadrant Online, 17/5).
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:35:21 PM
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Dear Opinionated,

I will not respond to your post until you correct your abusive style of writing.

* spell my name correctly.
* stop claiming without any basis that I "forgot" things (I didn't) or that I don't know anything about the issue (I do know quite a bit).
* stop harassing people with this "lmao" thing, whatever that means.

That's all for now.

I suggest that other OLO members refrain from responding too until Opinionated2 begins to be more polite and respectful.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:46:00 PM
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Yuyutsu,

Good on you. I don't know what he said to you because I haven't looked at his posts for some time, but I'm sure it was ignorant and arrogant. I support your response, as I'm sure many other posters would.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:01:30 PM
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Could it be that Turnbull has finally started to grow a pair?

Has he actually realised that there is no pleasing the long haired, radical ratbag left, short of surrendering our country to anyone who wants it?

If he could now wake up to the fact that CO2 is essential to all life on the planet, & stop wasting our money on fool windmills, we might be just able to vote for him. Yes we might have to hold our noses while doing so, but it would be better than Shorten.

Meanwhile the ratbags on here won't be happy until Sydney becomes like London, a so called western city, with an elected Muslim mayor. Are they likely to wake up to themselves anytime soon, or only as the Decapitation sword touches their neck.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:28:09 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Go to bed mate, you are talking gibberish. Come back tomorrow when you have a chance of talking a modicum of sense.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:40:47 PM
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Sorry Yuyu...You didn't sound as very knowledgeable on the topic...Can stealing of a person's land be by a right means?...lol

Don't respond then... It's no biggy to me....lmao

I can't help that I have a blunt style of writing... I don't complain about the unintelligent styles you confused right wingers have...lol

OUCH! You call me Opinionated when my name is Opinionated2...lol

I guess the rules you make don't apply to you Yuyu...lmao

Sleep well!

Australia should be pushing forward with the two state solution... Trump will probably be in jail soon anyway.

Some history for you all

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-opens-secret-files-about-jewish-terrorists-in-1940s/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Neither side of this debate has been honourable in this middle east problem so try to stay balanced and actually know some history before commenting too loudly.
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 21 May 2018 12:35:43 AM
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Hey Opinionated2,
You don't get bonus points on this forum for acting like a deranged asshole taking the piss out of older Australians.

This isn't Facebook, the people here value civility and the substance of arguments, not 'Laughing My Ass Off' at the end of every comment like 6yo on acid.

WTF is wrong with you?
You're picking on the members comments like a person with mental problems looking for low hanging fruit to bully.

They're not likely to tell you to pull your head in and grow the fck up, but I will.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 21 May 2018 8:20:50 AM
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"Until recently Australia has historically sided with the rest of the world in rightfully condemning the occupation of Palestinian land by the Israelis."

Yeah, people felt that way before Muslims started ramming trucks into bus queues and raping thousands (literally raping, literally thousands) of British children.

But now it's looking very much like the Israelis were right all along. And everyone feels a bit sheepish. Turns out that the only reason we thought what we did was that Islam wasn't happening to *us*, and that we were gravely mistaken.

Oh incidentally, have you seen the videos of those rows of Islamic martyrs killed by wicked Israelis, with the martyrs under the sheets laughing and joking and moving about?

It really is that simple.
Posted by PaulMurrayCbr, Monday, 21 May 2018 11:06:39 AM
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PaulMurrayCbr,

Very true. But you will notice the loopy Left hasn't noticed the things you mention. The are not "sheepish", but they surely are sheep.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 21 May 2018 11:35:01 AM
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'Bullies' you say STEELEREDUX when tiny Israel is utterly surrounded with vexatious, confrontational, and pugnacious Islamic Nations? They sound more like the victims to me!
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 21 May 2018 1:51:45 PM
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Now don't knock Steele, he's done considerable research on this subject; in fact, he's been through his Tarot Cards twice.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 21 May 2018 2:21:04 PM
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This is one of the most interesting links on the subject
that I've come across yet:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/picking-a-side-in-israel-palestine_b_5602701.html

It just goes to show the complexity of what we're dealing with here.
The author explains that:

People have all kinds of beliefs - from insisting that all Muslims
are terrorists (my words) to denying the Holocaust. We may respect
their right to hold these beliefs - but we're not obligated to
respect the beliefs themselves. It's 2018 and religions don't need to
be respected any more than any other political ideology or
philosophical thought system. Human beings have rights. Ideas don't.

Interesting concepts.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 21 May 2018 3:43:20 PM
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The current attack on Israel was orchestrated by Hamas, the terrorist organisation controlling Gaza, via social media. The objective: penetrate the border fence, capturing or killing IDF personnel and Israeli citizens.

Hamas has tricked everyone into thinking that the protest (that's what they are calling murder now) is in response to America’s shifting of their embassy to Jerusalem. However, the real plan is to beach the border and commit mass murder. Yet, some sections of the global community have criticised Israelis for protecting themselves! Iran donates $106 million a year to the terrorists to help them out.

There are 669 references to Jerusalem in the Old Testament. In the Koran - NOT A SINGLE MENTION.

I would like to thank Steelredux for providing the opportunity to share this information.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 21 May 2018 3:51:29 PM
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yep the marxist are so close to Hamas ideology. Strangely all their supporters (many who promote homosexuality) would be the first stoned if Hamas had their way. The lefist outrage is putried hypocrisy at its worst level. Trump certainly has more courage than the previous half dozen US Presidents.
Posted by runner, Monday, 21 May 2018 4:23:36 PM
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I have never seen any news report for decades, where the Israelies have initiated any attacks. Time and time again, the Palestinians attack in some way, and then Israel defends itself, and then all the anti-western nations in the United Nations condem Israel.

Why do the silly Palestinian, rag tag violent groups, attack a force like Israel and then complain when they get hurt. Or when they really go too far as they did with their rocket attacks and 15tunnels, the last time Israel got stirred up and killed 1,000 of them, do they then run to the United Nations to call off Israel
The Palestinians are using the United Nations as an ally that lets them attack Israel with impunity. The Arabs have proved themselves, liars again and again, around the world and it is always someone elses fault, when they attack.
Its exactly the same with Israel. They attack, forcing Israel to build a wall, then blame Israel for the wall
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 21 May 2018 4:40:49 PM
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Yes, runner. The Left/Muslim alliance seems to be anethama, but as far as the homosexual (seeming) differences go, the Left has no interest in homosexuals. The recent SSM affair, orchestrated by the Left had nothing to do with homosexuality; it was all about wrecking marriage, the family and therefore society - our society, which is an extension of the family. The Left duped people who are not homosexual or communistic into doing their job for them. The old revolutionary Marxists of 200 years ago, who would not have believed in same sex relationships, would be full of admiration for their descendants who used something they would never have dreamed of to achieve something they could not achieve in their day.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 21 May 2018 4:58:53 PM
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Opinionated2. I question your knowledge of the history of that area.

The 2 state solution was rejected by the Arabs after the 6 day war, in 1967, where Egypt Jordan and the Palestinians massed tanks and a 200,000 strong army on the Isrealie borders, Israel being well armed and well trained, beat these forces in 6 days.

This is when Israel took the so-called occupied land. But they gave back 90% of the land in the hope of a peace deal with the Arabs, who still would nt agree to a 2 state solution. Terrorists groups contunued to attack Israelie citizens in buses and in cafes killing 700 of them in one particular series of brutal attacks.
Israel was forced to build a wAr so they could better screen potential terrorist threats coming in and out of Israel. Since they have taken these defensive measures, most the the terror attacks from within Israel have stopped, but the attacks continue from rockets launched from the outside. Recently there were the spate of knife attacks being pulled from under black robes to kill Israelie soldiers.
Is it any wonder, Israelie soldiers would fire at people wearing these black robes who were running towards them.

No doubt they wanted to get hime safely to their wives and children. And yes if a sizeable rock happens to hit you in the head from a distance it can kill you alright or leave you braindamagedl, anither reason to fire at the rock throwers before they could get close enough to kill someone with those rocks.

And really, how silly are the palestinians to run towards well armed Israelie citizen protecting soldiers like that, then seem surprised that they got hurt.
Epreally these people seem to lack intelligence.
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 21 May 2018 5:31:21 PM
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sorry for the above typing errors. It should be wall, not wAr, but the dam thing posted as I was editing this . I usually type it up in a word document and paste it to avoid this, but this time I didnt.
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 21 May 2018 5:36:29 PM
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Cherful.

Yep, it's like that!
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 21 May 2018 6:55:03 PM
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Yep! everybody is tricking everybody else and the Palestinians are so dumb that they keep running into bullets that are minding their own business.
Forget their claim of right to return to that which was taken forceably from them which they are protesting in a metaphoric manner, and I can see where rocks can be as effective as bullets should they reach their targets, but you would need to think that readers are abject retards when you expect them not to question the no of deaths on the Palestinian side as being consequences of a balanced confrontation namely bullets against rocks as is claimed.
Nah!....the Zionists are murdering the Palestinians just as the Nazis murdered the Jews, and no amount of justification will ever exonerate that fact.
The day will come where desperation will result en masse with the Palestinian youth being stripped of their dignity will revolt.
No one deserves to be humiliated as the Zionists know full well and being funded by the Jews world wide will not exonerate their behaviour
Israel knows it is creating a permanent enemy so to keep the US having to continually support it 'till they wake up...and they will wake up.
The Holocaust is still remembered and so too will the theft of Palestinian land and consequential deaths.
Very cunning tactic, you steal a neighbours land and then claim self defence when he tries to reclaim it.
Posted by Special Delivery, Monday, 21 May 2018 10:08:01 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

You say;

“'Bullies' you say STEELEREDUX when tiny Israel is utterly surrounded with vexatious, confrontational, and pugnacious Islamic Nations? They sound more like the victims to me!”

I think we might have a slightly different view of what constitutes a victim. The Israelis are armed with approx 300 nuclear weapons, enhanced by the most powerful and sophisticated military and backed up by the world's most powerful nation and you want to make the case of them being victims?

Good luck.

Next let's step through the so called “ vexatious, confrontational, and pugnacious Islamic Nations” you claim are surrounding Israel. Lebanon and Syria perhaps might in part only qualify but Jordan and Egypt have had quite cordial relations with Israel for a long period.

Israel is alone in the world in keeping a brutal siege on nearly 2 million people, alone in the world flouting UN resolution against moving hundreds of thousands of its population into areas it militarily occupies, it certainly qualifies as a bully in my book according to the values I was raised with. You might need to better explain why it doesn't for you.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 21 May 2018 10:40:59 PM
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The Palestinians and their mates lost the war.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 21 May 2018 10:53:33 PM
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Dear Paul MurrayCbr,

You wrote;

“Yeah, people felt that way before Muslims started ramming trucks into bus queues and raping thousands (literally raping, literally thousands) of British children.”

In your thinking why are the actions of a small group predominately originating from a small area of Pakistan deemed sufficient to tar the whole religion while the Christian clergy who had been found to have been “raping thousands (literally raping, literally thousands) of British children.” attract not such censure from you?

There have been no Palestinians ramming into bus queues in Europe nor raping thousands of children so what else do you have against them that you see the actions of Israel as justifiable?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 21 May 2018 11:07:16 PM
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Dear CHERFUL,

You wrote;

“I have never seen any news report for decades, where the Israelies have initiated any attacks. Time and time again, the Palestinians attack in some way, and then Israel defends itself, and then all the anti-western nations in the United Nations condem Israel.”

and then;

“The 2 state solution was rejected by the Arabs after the 6 day war, in 1967, where Egypt Jordan and the Palestinians massed tanks and a 200,000 strong army on the Isrealie borders, Israel being well armed and well trained, beat these forces in 6 days.”

Who do you think initiated attacks both in the air and on the ground in the Six day War?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 21 May 2018 11:12:55 PM
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This is the response by British Labour;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee9feAux4Jo

It just shows how piss weak the response from our own Labour party is. The only voice really being heard is from Albo. The rest have essentially gone missing.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 12:35:01 AM
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Steele,

A strong and forceful speech by UK Labours Emily Thornberry on the daily atrocities being committed against innocent Palestinian people by the Israelis. It is to the ALP's shame that they have taken a somewhat muted response to what has been happening. The attempts by the Trump administration to justify Israeli actions is deplorable, but for Australia to take a similar stance is reprehensible in the extreme.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 4:51:01 AM
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As scottish comedian Frankie Boyle put it recently:

'If one side has sniper rifles and the other side has a few catapults and slingshots, you're basically murdering the Ewoks.'

It's a good analogy: a group armed with extremely primitive weapons, trying to protect their tiny little forest moon from the ruthless oppression of the Empire, who come equipped with the might of the Imperial military.

Little wonder that the forum's usual suspects would back the Empire.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 7:50:04 AM
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"One would think," writes Israeli journalist Daphna
Baram, "that Israel was not a nuclear regional
superpower possessing the fourth most powerful army
in the world, but a shaky sanctuary where Jews are
annihilated by the thousands every day."

The only way to defend an illegal and brutal
occupation is to be constantly on the offensive, and
slamming and threatening opponents often forces them into
submission.

However, the Jewish state simply cannot continue to ignore
majority world opinion. It's way past time to focus on
justice for both Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israeli perspective in far better understood in the
West, largely because of the Zionist lobby's activities,
but also even more so since September 11 - as "our"
struggle against Islamic fundamentalism. The Palestinians
are not particularly effective at translating their message
for a Western audience, and most Western journalists based
in Israel spend relatively little time in East Jerusalem and
the occupied territories.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 3:42:33 PM
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Cherful.
I agree with all you say so there is little point in repeating it.

The fact is that Israel kicked the arse of the Arabs in the 6 day war and then, in a gesture of good will, gave most of the concured land back.(Bad mistake) Since then the Arabs have been raining rockets almost daily on Israel.Their hiding was not bad enough.

There is no doubt, the Israelies are the goodies and the Arabs the badies in this.

Time for Israel to get serious. Remember we did not get the Japs to surrender until we showed we had a bigger stick.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 4:07:56 PM
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Dear Banjo,

In June 1967, the Six Day War changed the face of the
Middle East. Israel's Arab neighbours, especially Egypt,
decided that Israel had to be removed from the map and
attacked, but the result for them was military devastation.

In less than a week, Israel trebled the land under its
control, gaining territories such as the Gaza Strip,
West Bank, Sinai and East Jerusalem.

Now Israel entered an even more militaristic age, and the
Western world's love affair with the Jewish state intensified.

The US administration of Lyndon Johnson accepted Israel's
conquest with only an occasional dissenting voice.

Despite US acceptance of the war's outcome, there was concern
at the UN and on 22 Nov. 1967 the Security Council approved
Resolution 242 making it clear that Israel should withdraw from
territories conquered. Israel has never complied with this
ruling and the USA's power of veto has always ensured that
the resolution is not enforced.

While the resolution was unanimously passed, it also called for
the establishment of defensible borders for all relevant
parties (Israel, Syria, Egypt, and Jordon).

To this present day, Israel has insisted that a cessation of
Palestinian "terrorism" is a pre-requisite for negotiations.
While the international community demands an end to the
occupation, US support has enabled Israel to avoid taking
concrete steps.

Overnight, Israel became an occupying force with control over
one million Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 4:50:47 PM
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Dear Foxy,

You wrote;

“In June 1967, the Six Day War changed the face of the Middle East. Israel's Arab neighbours, especially Egypt, decided that Israel had to be removed from the map and attacked, but the result for them was military devastation.”

That was what I was taught too. I have come to the conclusion it is not supported by the facts. This wikipedia piece gives a reasonable summation.

“In 1956 Israel invaded the Egyptian Sinai, with one of its objectives being the reopening of the Straits of Tiran which Egypt had blocked to Israeli shipping since 1950. Israel was subsequently forced to withdraw, but won a guarantee that the Straits of Tiran would remain open. While the United Nations Emergency Force was deployed along the border, there was no demilitarisatio nagreement."

"In the period leading up to June 1967, tensions became dangerously heightened. Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that the closure of the straits of Tiran to its shipping would be a casus belli. In May Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the straits would be closed to Israeli vessels and then mobilised its Egyptian forces along its border with Israel. On 5 June Israel launched what it claimed were a series of preemptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

The real issue was how much offensive or defensive intent was there in Nasser's move. Most of the evidence points to it being a defensive posture but it was enough reason for Israel to attack.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 5:02:03 PM
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After that pile of garbage, just imagine if Steely was to write the history of the world.

Starlin, Chairman Mao & Pol Pot would become enlightened saintly leaders, who led their countries into peace & harmony.

He aint no watermelon, he's straight red right through.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 6:29:17 PM
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Dear Steele,

Here are two more links on the subject:

http://antonyloewenstein.com/2017/06/06/what-happens-when-israeli-occupation-is-permanent/

And -

http://www.thenational.ae/arts-culture/how-the-1967-war-led-to-permanent-occupation-of-palestine-1.48119
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 6:30:13 PM
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SR.
I don't know about the position of the Arab forces, but the rhetoric from the Arabs was certainly offensive about what they were going to do to the Israelies.

Anyway, a couple of quick punches from the Israelies and the bout was over. The Arabs virtually took off their boots and ran away.

I think their have been one or two skirmishes since where the Israelies have shown their superior abilities. I recall something about one in Lebanon, as we had to evacuate a ship load of Lebanese/Aus residents.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 6:46:47 PM
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Dear Hassie,

That previous post of yours directed at Steele smacks of
the discredited McCarthy era of the 1950s.
We really don't need to go down that slippery
slope.

Or put another way -

"Have you no sense of decency, sir?"
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 6:47:29 PM
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Just stating the facts mam.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 8:29:38 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Thanks but don't sweat it. Hassie and I have an understanding. He trolls away like the ubiquitous drunk uncle lacking in the usual social graces and I get a chance to vent the spleen right back at him like some triggered uni student. We both find it therapeutic and wouldn't have it any other way.

Dear Hasbeen,

That's better. Passably coherent this time. See what a good nap can do for ya.

Aren't we privileged though that you decided to provide so much evidence to support your counter argument that we have all been swayed by your erudite, well researched offering which no man of any note could resist.

Mug.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 11:50:26 PM
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Dear Steele,

Fair enough.

Dear Hassie,

You're not stating the facts.

You're distorting them.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 23 May 2018 1:23:22 PM
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Hi Foxy. when has gunboat Hassy been guilty of stating the facts. Hassy is a disciple of The Donald, and its all fake news. Unfortunately The Donald's Nobel Peace Prize is looking in tatters as he blasts away with military exercises involving his South Korean lackeys, cousie Kimmy is not amused
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 24 May 2018 5:57:08 AM
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<a blockade of Israel's access to the Red Sea (international waters) via the Straits of Tiran, which Israel considered an act of war. Tension escalated, with both sides' armies mobilising. Less than a month later, Israel launched a surprise strike which began the Six-Day War.>

Foxy
You are right. Israel did strike first, but they believed The Arab states massing their armies together on Israels borders, were a threat, and also they needed access to the Tiran Straits for their merchant and civilian ships, which Egypt was blocking, to Isreal this blocking of the Strait and the Arab Armies massing on Israels borders was viewed as an act of war and no doubt as cutting off their supply routes.

To the Arabs,a lot of the history of the Straits of Tiran, goes back to the constant disputes over the right to international shipping in the Suez Canal, it goes back a long way, involving the 2nd world war at least, and earlier, also the United Nations (league of Nations) at one stage proclaiming the Suez Canal was to be kept open to international shipping.
Then you have the fabulous wealth of the oil, being traded by the British and European Nations and don't forget some of the Arab Nations who became very wealthy from trading the same oil.
It has such a long history, it was tiring to read all the disputes and manipulations over it.
But the Egyptians felt the straits of Tiran and the Suez Canal should belong to them.
I dont see why they should try to cut off one of Israels lifelines in modern times though, by blocking the straits, causing the 6 day war. It is easy to see how Israel would see that as a threat and an act of war.
But then there seems to be a lot of fear on the Arab side as well, regarding Israel and their super military capabilities. Much like people are wary of the Chinese military build up in waters in iur own area at the moment
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 24 May 2018 6:51:14 PM
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Dear CHERFUL,

Thanks for that.

I always enjoy reading your posts.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 24 May 2018 6:57:48 PM
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Dear CHERFUL,

You wrote;

“I dont see why they should try to cut off one of Israels lifelines in modern times though, by blocking the straits, causing the 6 day war. It is easy to see how Israel would see that as a threat and an act of war.”

The Israelis, in colluding to attack Egypt along with Britain and France much to the great annoyance of the US resulting in the Suez crisis, had understandably created a high degree of tension between Israel and Egypt. However Nasser's closure of the Straits was largely symbolic.

“That the announcement of the blockade of the Strait of Tiran paved the way for war is disputed by Major General Indar Jit Rikhye, military adviser to the United Nations Secretary General, who called the accusation of a blockade "questionable," pointing out that an Israeli-flagged ship had not passed through the straits in two years, and that "The U.A.R. [Egyptian] navy had searched a couple of ships after the establishment of the blockade and thereafter relaxed its implementation."” Wikipedia

So the blockade was only directed at Israeli flagged ships, all others were free to pass through to Israel.

In exercising Egypt's sovereignty over the strait the Egyptians knew there could be retaliation from Israel and prepared accordingly. The language from Nassar was always about 'if you attack we will respond' rather than 'we are going to attack you'.

“We are ready for war…These waters are ours. War might be an opportunity for the Jews, for Israel, to test their strength against ours. The Israeli flag shall not go through the Gulf of Aqaba. Our sovereignty over the entrance to the Gulf cannot be disputed. If Israel wishes to threaten war, we tell her: “You are welcome.” (Boston Globe, May 23, 1967) “

Israel may well claim casus belli but it doesn't shift the indisputable fact that they were the aggressors in starting this war.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 24 May 2018 10:54:16 PM
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Foxy,
You said, "The Palestinians are not particularly effective at translating their message to a western audience"

I think the Arabs are particularly good at relating their message to the Israelis. It is. 'We will kill all Jews and wipe Israel from the map'
They have stated this many, many times.

The Arabs have tried this many times and have failed each time as the Israelis are superior, both in military and moralistically. But the Arabs are too dumb to learn.

I think Israel has been very patient in the face of the constant threats and terrorism they have faced.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 25 May 2018 1:12:26 PM
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Dear Banjo,

«The Arabs have tried this many times and have failed each time as the Israelis are superior, both in military and moralistically.»

Very true, but we must be watchful that this gap doesn't close.
Scrutinising the morality of Israelis, well and beyond anyone else's, is a blessing for Israel and should be welcome.

Israel's morality has been truly outstanding until 1967, then it fell sharply, but fortunately not as low as the Arabs' - or else it wouldn't exist. For Israel to regain its strength and purpose it must withdraw from the rest of the occupied territories (as it already withdrew from Gaza and Sinai); and since there is no one to talk with on the Arab side, it should do so unilaterally (leaving the Jewish settlers behind to fend for themselves, if so they wish). Israel is strong enough militarily to afford so.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 25 May 2018 2:22:53 PM
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Dear Banjo,

A military force (Israel) supported by the super power of the US,
with all of its military advantages cannot claim to be
a victim when they are also the occupiers and have total
control of the land they are occupying.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 25 May 2018 2:25:29 PM
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Dear Foxy,

None of us, no matter how strong, has total control of our land.

Look in your own yard - do you control the ants?
So long as they stay in the yard going about their business and allowing you to hang your clothes to dry, you are fine, but once they come in droves into your kitchen, well then you need to do something and it ain't easy.

Granted, you are much stronger than any ant, but total control? you would wish...
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 25 May 2018 4:52:44 PM
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Foxy,
Thank you, I always enjoy reading your posts as well. You always add interesting points to the debate.

The Palestinian Isrealie, situation, is a worrying situation,
The Egyptians no doubt can claim the Suez canal and the Straits of Tiran as their territorial waters.
The ISraelies have been forced to make their homeland in Palestine because of their ethnic cleansing from Germany in the second world war.
IT was noteable after the war, that no country in the world, would allow re-settlement of so many Jews in their countries,that includes Australia, and Britain, I think maybe the Americans took a llimited amount. It always strikes me as a bit ironic that, these countries condem Germany for wanting to rid their country of Jews, and yet, for all this
condemnation, it seems the Australians and British didnt want them in their countries either. Neither did the Arabs, who were given no choice, because the British decided to give the Jews a homeland in Palestine, because they didnt know what to do with them
The Jews too are a victim of circumstances after being driven out of Germany with nowhere to go. They have no choice but to try to do the best with the land they were given.
The Arabs understandably, arent very keen on the idea.

The Arabs however, believe Europe and the Western countries should take all the Arab immigrants, millions of them, who want to come into those countries, but they dont like Jewiish refugees in their countries. That seems to be a double standard.
Mankind has a warlike nature, it can only be hopefully, held at bay,by prosperity for all, population control and tribal intermarriage. Those 3 things would also go a long way to defusing the Palestine situation. But I dont see any chance of these 3 things happening.

given the refusal of any countries to take them..
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:32:23 PM
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sorry, that last line in my post above shouldnt be there. My typing again.
I always think Im not going to write much and dont go over to word processing to type and edit first. My children always say, Im incapable of writing a short text message.c
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 26 May 2018 8:47:03 PM
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US Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley slammed the council’s decision, saying: ‘At a time when Venezuela lurches toward dictatorship, Iran imprisons thousands of political opponents, and ethnic cleansing has taken place in Burma, the UN’s so-called Human Rights Council has decided to launch an investigation into a democratic country’s legitimate defence of its own border against terrorist attacks.’
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 26 May 2018 11:03:48 PM
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Julie Bishop largely concurred: ( with the above) - ‘The protesters should not seek to enter the Israeli territories by force. Hamas should not be instigating this kind of protest which they must know could lead to violence…’.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 26 May 2018 11:08:30 PM
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Do those deriding Israel really expect it not to maintain the integrity of the security fence and protect its citizens, at all costs, just like any other state would if faced with similar circumstances?
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 26 May 2018 11:28:53 PM
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ttbn

Unfortuneately, there does seem to be a mindset by people around the globe that they can just cross the borders of other countries at will, and that they are entitled to do it.

That's why we and every country in the world have armies( male territorial defenders)
Because historically, people and countries have always defended their borders, Understanding that control must be kept of territories or countrys to protect, ones biological bloodline, because other tribes can and do threaten control of territories and as can be observed quite clearly in history, except by our esteemed academics,
most if not all of those dispossesed entirely of land and territory, quickly find themselves
in danger of annihalition or extinction. Today, we still see this in action by people driven into refugee camps. The only reason they survive being dispiossed of their lands, is United Nations Aid. This aid didnt exist in past centuries, only the last 80years or so perhaps. So even in todays world, being disposses of territory is still fraught with extreme survival problems
Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 28 May 2018 8:45:07 PM
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