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The Forum > General Discussion > Aboriginal Housing in remote areas etc.

Aboriginal Housing in remote areas etc.

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"2018-19 Budget: Remote Indigenous
housing in the Northern Territory

The Australian Government announced $550 million over five years ($110 per annum) to support remote housing in Indigenous Communities across the Northern Territory.
This funding will be matched by the Northern Territory Government.

This funding will commence in 2018-19 and be provided through a five year bilateral agreement with the Northern Territory Government.

The Northern Territory Government will retain responsibility for housing sub-lease arrangements for the five-year period.
The Australian Government will focus on ensuring Aboriginal people and key stakeholders such as Land Councils are at the heart of investment including through governance arrangements and that local
people receive significant employment and business opportunities."
http://www.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/budget-fact-sheet-remote-housing.pdf

Have we heard something like this before?
Before?
Before?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 10 May 2018 2:44:20 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Why do you do this mate? Is it just some pent up bitterness that someone might get a bit more than you in some form?

The NT has 12% of the country's homeless. From the budget there is $4.6 billion going toward social and homeless housing nation wide over the next 3 years. From what you are claiming the NT will get $330 million over the same period which represents about 7% of the funding.

Why shouldn't it be more?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 10 May 2018 11:07:11 PM
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About 15 years ago, friend of mine worked in NT lots of new houses were built for the Aborigines new furnishings and appliances.

After a few months nearly all were wrecked.

Help the ones who want to get out, leave the deadbeats where they are happy.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 10 May 2018 11:08:22 PM
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Steele,

I'm merely putting something up for discussion, but I do believe that we've been down this handout path before.

I know people who have worked in the Indigenous housing sector and it is as Philip said, only worse if anything.

Mind you not only in NT are houses trashed.
A friend was a Housing Commission Inspector in NSW and in a Sydney suburb, Fairfield, he got a bit suspicious of a house that never had the front blinds open (this was in the days before marijuana); an inspection revealed that the two front rooms were a small mushroom farm, not in pots but on the floorboards (white Aussie family).
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 11 May 2018 9:05:55 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

Seeing as you want this topic discussed, here's a link
that does that - including showing us where some of
the problems may lie. Worth a read, in my opinion:

http://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-30-billion-spent-every-year-on-500-000-indigenous-people-in-australia-64658
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 May 2018 10:25:38 AM
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need to teach aborigines to respect gifts before building more to be destroyed. The house a few doors up from me has had to be renovated rebuilt on average once a year for many years. This is very commonplace where free housing is given to aboriginals. Regressives never have the courage to confront the mess they create.
Posted by runner, Friday, 11 May 2018 10:33:36 AM
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Dear runner,

Define "regressives."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 May 2018 10:35:38 AM
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Define "regressives."

those 'who claim to be progressive however in reality take society backwoods often using pseudo science as justication'. Truth and facts are ignored.No copyright on definition if you want to use it Foxy. It describes about 90% of abc presenters.
Posted by runner, Friday, 11 May 2018 10:48:32 AM
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Everything that can be said about remote-living aborigines has been said - over, and over and over again. Nothing changes. Nothing is done apart from slinging 30 billion dollars a year at them, and look how that has worked. All the waffle and waste of money is an insult to the majority aboriginal-Australians who have made decent lives for themselves. It's an insult to all Australians. It's a crying bloody shame; and if we are not all ashamed of it, we bloody well should be.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 11 May 2018 11:01:29 AM
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Dear runner,

I worry about you. It appears that for you it's
all a matter of, "I fear and distrust anything
that's different."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 May 2018 11:06:01 AM
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Dear Is Mise,

I have spent any spare time over the last six weeks resurrecting a rental property that suffered markedly from the last tenants. As well as time and effort it will cost us over $25,000 to pull it back to presentable. The property had been managed by a real estate company (admittedly not very well) which I suspect is not a service that would be available in many remote communities.

Two different tradesmen I got in both told of rental properties they currently own needing substantial work after tenant abuse. VCAT visits and magistrate court proceedings to recover damages were also being employed.

In each instance these were European Australians. In the city close to us there are housing commission homes where very few trades people are prepared to work in because of their condition. In the last census the indigenous population was about 1% in those two suburbs and most certainly not a factor.

While it is not the whole answer social disadvantage IS a factor that can not be dismissed. Surely money spent addressing that disadvantage in communities is well spent.

Yet you are determinedly singling out race as the only factor. It is wrong and short sighted and needs to be shown for what it is.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 11 May 2018 11:09:37 AM
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' I worry about you. It appears that for you it's
all a matter of, "I fear and distrust anything
that's different."'

fair enough Foxy but what that has to do with the epidemic problem of aboriginals and others destroying houses I am not sure.
Posted by runner, Friday, 11 May 2018 3:24:18 PM
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Is Mise.

A quote from the same link.

• Twenty-one per cent of the Indigenous population in the Northern Territory are considered homeless, with the majority living in remote Indigenous communities in such severely overcrowded houses they are considered homeless.

What's your problem with housing the homeless?
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 12 May 2018 8:06:04 AM
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Gotcha...I've just worked it out for myself. There "Blacks".
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 12 May 2018 8:09:41 AM
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Runner,

People who accuse others of having “fear” - of the 'unknown’, whatever - are just trying to put you down. They are the ones who fear that you might just be right, and all their politically correct babble and fear of being called 'racist’, 'bigot’, or any of the epithets be!oved of the scungy Left might come crashing down around them. They fear you. You are one of the posters on OLO who does not 'fear’ to express your opinion in the face of group-think garbage from the sanctimonious luvvies. You think for yourself, unlike your critics (and mine, and our fellow conservatives).

As Oscar Wilde said: “he who does not think for himself does not think at all.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 12 May 2018 9:39:53 AM
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Watching the life of accomplished actor David Gulpilil on Aboriginal TV, it is evident they prefer to live and hunt in the bush; over living in white fella housing and clothes. For them it is freedom and culture. All they need is fresh drinking water and hunting equipment.
Posted by Josephus, Saturday, 12 May 2018 9:43:49 AM
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Steele,

"Yet you are determinedly singling out race as the only factor. It is wrong and short sighted and needs to be shown for what it is."

Not really, I also think that social responsibility is a factor; hence my reference to the house in Fairfield.

Another time he had a house inspected after he saw a sudden flash of light underneath it as he was driving past (quite by chance).
The inspection shewed that the floorboards had been removed from one front room for firewood and that they were starting on the next, the light he'd seen was when the door to the remainder of the house was opened, possibly to get more wood for the fire, (Whites).
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 12 May 2018 10:34:02 AM
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Dear runner,

You were the one who introduced the topic of "regressives"
into this discussion. I merely responded.

Have a nice week-end.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 12 May 2018 11:25:44 AM
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Tilt up concrete houses with iron roofing with steel doors in the NT are appropriate with tap water. Wooden houses are used for fire wood, even in City areas. My wife while working in Child welfare in Mt Druit area found they removed floor coverings and drilled holes in the floor to drain the water when they hosed the house out.
Posted by Josephus, Saturday, 12 May 2018 11:57:52 AM
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No housing at all in remote areas where there are no jobs is the best idea.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 12 May 2018 12:21:17 PM
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From Steely, "While it is not the whole answer social disadvantage IS a factor that can not be dismissed. Surely money spent addressing that disadvantage in communities is well spent".

No not social disadvantage, but lack of social respect, or respect from themselves.

Anyone who can damage the property of another, or all of us in public housing, dose not deserve any second chance. The problem is they have been given too much, & therefor respect nothing.

If their behaviour is suitable for nothing but a tent, or a bark humpy, that is all they should be offered, provided they pay for the thing.

This is nothing to do with skin colour, & everything to do with worthlessness of the people involved. A huge percentage of housing commission & aboriginal housing budget is spent repairing, & replacing accommodation abused by the tenants. Time to put such people out on the street, where they belong, permanently
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 12 May 2018 1:39:41 PM
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It's probably not a good idea for the state to be providing housing for anyone, not just people descended from aborigines. With huge waiting times for public housing most people now have to go into the private rental market, which is as it should be all the time, and for everybody. Governments are as a incompetent in the rental business as they are in everything else they do. People in need can get rent relief for the private market, and there are charitable organisations. I know SA Housing Trust tenants who have had their homes taken over from the government by these charities, and they are much happier with the service and maintenance provided.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 12 May 2018 3:40:59 PM
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Issy, you speak of "social responsibility". The reality is there are those in society who are incapable of conforming to accepted social norms, ie, your house trashers are such people. The question at the coal face is what do you want done with these people? They are certainly not the majority of social housing tenants, they are a minority, so penalizing the majority for the transgressions of the minority is not an option, in my view.

Hassy in his usual style has offered this gem of an idea; "Time to put such people out on the street, where they belong, permanently" The past practice has been to lump the unacceptable types in with others of low socio-economic standing in ghettos, commonly called public housing estates, where the trashers impact is mostly confined to others, although relatively decent people, who are also of little standing in the community. The price to pay for society is in the maintaining and policing of the whole sorry mess.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 14 May 2018 6:28:22 AM
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I don't know all the issues on this topic, but my thoughts are that we should put some time and research into developing an efficient portable housing solution.

Something that could be ordered from a factory using cheap foreign made parts, built by Aussie workers in 2 weeks on an assembly line, and trucked and installed on site 48hrs later.

Power efficient / Versatile / Relocatable

If one gets wrecked, you simply take it out send it back to the factory for refurbishment and reinstall a heavy duty version.
Known home wreckers should only get the absolute basic heavy duty model.
Whereas as if you look after it and take responsibility for it, you may later be entitled to an upgrade.

Give the indigenous real jobs in nice new factories assembling them.
Maybe they will feel valued, feel like they have some prospects in this country other than drinking and be less likely to destroy them then, maybe...
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 14 May 2018 8:17:52 AM
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There are multiple problems with remote area housing, but I’ll give you an example from my life.
When my husband took his family(myself and 4 children) back to his family community in remote Kimberley, the only housing offered to us was an old, derelict, tiny native welfare house that was in disgusting condition and had been refused by everyone else.
My husband and I totally renovated this house, with many hours of hard labour, supplies scrounged from rubbish dumps and a small amount of our cash for things like a new toilet, paint and concrete.
We ended up with the best house in the community.
My husband offered to teach the men basic home maintenance and I offered to teach the women how to grow fruit and vegetables. We had a huge veggie garden with many fruit trees around the yard.
No one was interested. They preferred to cram into relatives houses when theirs became uninhabitable and under no circumstances would anyone pay for repairs to damages caused by occupants. Another cause of overcrowding is when the power bill doesn’t get paid so when the power gets cut off people just move in with someone else until they can get round to paying the bill, which could take weeks to years.
The only thing that is going to change this mind set is to enforce responsibility onto people. Make them pay market price rent, make them pay for all repairs beyond normal wear and tear and evict those who overcrowd their house to the extent it becomes a health hazard.
This will require a huge cultural change but if they want European style housing they need to adopt European housing habits.
Posted by Big Nana, Monday, 14 May 2018 10:52:02 AM
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G'day IS MISE...Indeed we have my friend. I recall mentioning before, when I was a relieving sergeant in the bush, you'd have to attend a job at some small govt. built housing settlement, for indigenous folk. Generally to sort out some minor blue, usually associated with the excessive consumption of alcohol, and/or domestic violence.

Invariably many of these little cottages have been vandalised by the occupants. Not through any criminal intent, other than perhaps excessive consumption of alcohol, but certainly not any specific criminal malice, more like some 'innocent' intent. A couple of my constables returned this day, with the truck full (5) of inebriated black men. As a rule you don't arrest blacks at their humpy's unless they're violent or the crime's serious etc etc. These blokes in their wisdom decided to build an open fire inside their Kitchen occasioning substantial damage to flooring and cupboards etc.

The funny side of it being; they constructed a proper fireplace, using a few stones, and a piece of waste corrugated iron sheeting, and couldn't understand why my two blokes pinched 'em for it? I laughed about the incident, often during the retelling of if it, trouble was, it was Taxpayers money that built the little cottages. When cleaned up the damage was relatively minimal requiring a bit of sanding and vanish, mainly to the floorboards, and the paint and/or adhesive covering on the cupboard doors. Even the SM had trouble suppressing a grin, when one of my blokes was giving his evidence in chief. Courts in the bush do have a sense of humour.

The poor 'ol Beak had to try even harder to hide his mirth, when one of the offenders remonstrated with him, when asked why he wanted a fire in the kitchen, he replied; "...to cook their dinner of course, that's the reason of a kitchen, in'n't Boss..."?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 14 May 2018 11:23:26 AM
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Nana
your experience and reasoning is a breath of fresh air. If only the know it all 'elites' would listen to you. Unfortunately they know the truth but are stuck in a flawed destructive narrative which protects their jobs.
Posted by runner, Monday, 14 May 2018 11:41:39 AM
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Perhaps the houses we build for aborigines are the wrong design. Perhaps we should supply a good supply of bush timber, & bark, & leave it at that. My experience in Rabaul would indicate this.

Many of the locals in PNG had become well off enough to build a "white man" house. These if well designed for the tropics can be quite good, but if a typical 60s style Melbourne fibro box is built, they are truly horrible up there.

I got to know some locals very well, & would be invited for a meal. You would be received & entertained in a strangely bare house. I found this strange, as local village houses are usually quite cluttered.

Ultimately I learnt that most locals did not like their prestigious "white mans" house, A built a much more comfortable local style house of thatch & coconut fond behind the main house, living in it by preference other than to entertain.

Many plantation main house were a blend of local & imported materials. If they had a tin roof, to catch rain water, they would have a thatch roof below & clear of the tin, with an air gap for ventilation & coolness.

Many walls were coconut fond matting awnings to be lowered to keep rain out, & shade cloth or mosquito mesh from waist height up.

Obviously many PNG locals are smarter than us.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 14 May 2018 2:00:26 PM
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Hasbeen, sorry but the experience doesn’t translate across the Torres Straight. All the aboriginal people I know, from remote full bloods to town dwelling middle class, want European style housing with as many air conditioners as can be squeezed in.
I actually find the passion for air conditioning quite strange in the old people. Years ago, before remote people got access to air cons, the old people would prefer to be outside sleeping on a mattress or blanket under the stars but the accessibility to modern technology has changed everything. Now everyone locks themselves in their houses with air cons blasting and videos/tv playing non stop and residents fixated by mobile phones.
We have long passed the stage of thinking aboriginal people will be content with anything less than everyone else has.
Posted by Big Nana, Monday, 14 May 2018 2:57:00 PM
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More importantly, why are we encouraging anyone to live jobless or more importantly in places where finding a job is next to impossible in the first place. Surely there is a better use for our tax dollars. More importantly, how would a white family go if they tried to start a remote community on the tax payers purse. By all means call me racist, but hey,where am I wrong?
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 14 May 2018 6:25:59 PM
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rehctub,

Whites (mostly) living in remote communities are doing fine, these communities are usually hippie communes and many of their people are unemployed and on welfare.
The difference is that most communities are well run, healthy places and even if the mod cons are sometimes a bit 'Heath Robinson', they work.
Many have solar power and I remember, rather fondly, one place in the Upper Bellingen Valley where those who wanted to watch TV at night did a stint on the stationary push bike that drove the 12-volt generator; fitness and doing one's bit at the same time!!
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 14 May 2018 9:34:16 PM
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As usual I come at this from a different angle. I would like to set aside the black, white, trashing houses thing for a moment, and focus on where all these billions are going. I have said it before, this welfare angle the govt is always pushing, I find annoying as I suspect that it is really a front for skimming money. Don't ask me how, but I cannot justify the billions spent when you compare the money with the services provided. I think it's a joke that we talk about these houses and the trashing there-of, I agree it is true, but BILLIONS? Something is not right, and it frustrates me that I can't put my finger on what or how they (the govt and their mates) are doing it. I know there is a lot of scrutinee over the money being spent on such people or projects, so it should not be possible to 'skim' any money, but never-the-less, I would like to see the money trail surrounding these grants or projects or housing issues.
Posted by ALTRAV, Monday, 14 May 2018 9:57:39 PM
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Issy, I'm sure you were a sixties flower child, that was you on the bike, right? Under all that camouflage there beats the heart of a fellow greenie, "peace man".
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 3:58:55 AM
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I have spent 38 years uninterupted living & working in remote communities & I suggest people take notice of what Nana says.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 7:27:58 AM
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One fact that most people don’t seem to be aware of. Most remote aboriginal housing is
built on Native Title land, that is, private land. Nowhere else do citizens get public housing built on their private land.
This is why the government has been seeking 99 year leases over a very small section of land within the Native Title areas so they can build houses and maintain management of them.
Posted by Big Nana, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 9:47:20 AM
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Altrav it is always such when bureaucrats, with no skin in the game, let out government contracts.

I was treasure of the P&C at a small, but rapidly expanding country primary school. The school had expanded from 76 pupils 3 teachers & headmaster to 180 pupils in just 2 years, & there was quite a bit of building going on.

One project was a new toilet, a building, 5 pedestals a urinal, a large septic & an expiration trench. I was horrified when in a time when a 3 bedroom house was built for $35,000 in the area, that toilet contract was let for $240,000.

I knew the builder, a small local bloke, who was building it, so asked how they justified such a price. He told me the story.

Like almost all of the education department projects in that district with 55 schools, the contract was awarded to a large builder in Brisbane. That builder sublet the contract to a large building company in Bundaberg who in turn sublet it to a Maryborough company. The local bloke was subcontracted to them to build the project, for $65,000. He reckoned this was the most profitable contract he'd ever had.

When asked why he didn't tender direct for these contracts he pointed out it took a fair bit of time to chase government contracts, which he couldn't afford, as locals very rarely were successful. He said this was the system as it worked, & he was glad to get his first bite at the cherry, & hoped he could get more of it.

That will be the same with aboriginal building, & of course, the distance from any centre of workers makes the actual job more expensive.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 10:37:23 AM
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Aboriginal housing: forty-odd years ago, I was working as a labourer on a 'community' [I think I'll never use that word again] which was offered the choice by the DAA of funds to buy either: (a) the next-door property of 2000 acres, cleared land under 20 acres of grapes, the rest grain-producing; or (b) six new houses. The Council chose more houses [so much for 'craving for our land'].

A DAA bloke came up to check out the housing situation, and found that the three or four white supervisors' families were in the most crowded houses. In the village, there were many vacant houses as young couples moved in with their parents so that grandmother could look after all the kids and they could stay adolescent. And so that the grandparents could pay the minimal rents of $ 4 and $ 6 instead.

The Council got their houses, including one with solar panels (in 1976!). The kids went to work on those and they were useless within three months. Twenty years later, that house was gone. But never mind, there were plenty of others being built.

Only one family lives there now (that of the 'mayor' of the place), amid some pretty nice looking new houses. But it's good to see almost no rubbish around the front yards and streets, it's probably all blowing around out in the paddocks.
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 1:33:34 PM
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If ever there were a dog chasing its tail, aboriginal housing and welfare is a classic example. All political correctness has done is help hide the problems but they still exist and simply allowing remote communities to draw welfare funding is a huge part of the problem. By all means let them reside where they wish, but when they are relying on tax payers funding, the tax payers have every right to demand better use of their dollars.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 3:36:19 PM
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As expected from the forums usual suspect, they lay it on thick whenever they get the opportunity to dump on Aboriginal people. Nothing like a few "personal shockers" to spice up the debate. Indignation and denigration is the order of the day for some forumites. Strangely 90% of the clunkers claim some close association with remote communities. These remote black communities didn't know what hit 'em when the bus loads of right wing ratbags blew into town to set things straight!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 8:19:45 PM
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We should leave it to the Greens, they'll have an answer to the problem; might cost a bit though.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 15 May 2018 9:01:10 PM
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The whole show is just simply a case of one exploiting the other for a grab at the taxpayer funded lottery of waste.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 May 2018 6:55:01 AM
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Dear Big Nana,

It is not owned by and individual, nor a profit making company but rather a community. Not a small distinction.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 16 May 2018 9:33:37 AM
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Steeleredux, for legal purposes it doesn’t matter if the land is individually owned or owned by a corporate body. It is still not public land that is controlled by the government.
Many of the problems arising with housing, especially in the past, before the government got leases is that public housing bodies had no control over rents, maintenance and repairs or evictions. In fact, many times government workers from different departments were banned from even entering the land in question.
As I said, nowhere else do people get a government funded house on their private land.
The good side of this is there are no building regulations so people can build themselves whatever type of building they want, from a tent, tin hut or mansion.
There is nothing stopping aboriginal people doing what pastoralists and others have done, that is build from whatever resources are locally available, be it timber, rock or clay to make bricks.
One European family in the Kimberley who own and run a large pearl farm and tourist resort raised their children in bough sheds made from concrete floors, wire mesh walls and paperbark roofs. They then grew creepers over the whole structure to provide insulation and more protection. I saw this structure in the 80s and was really impressed.
These days of course they are rich and have beautiful European style housing but they started off very simple and lived off the land for many years until their pearl farm was viable.
Funnily enough, some of their early workers were aboriginal people from two neighbouring communities who never thought to replicate the housing idea on their own land.
Posted by Big Nana, Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:13:30 AM
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Hasbeen, thanks for the 'heads up' on the issue of govt contracts. Now I finally know where and how they 'skim'. These principal contractors must be the ones with the 'in' factor. They become 'preferred' suppliers or tenderers and that is where the skimming must take place. The prices on all govt contracts are so over-inflated, it beggars belief. I am angered when I hear of another tax or way to extract more money out of us, when I know that all that's required is a culling of these current methods of issuing contracts so that we either get to the end provider without any 'middle men' or demand the govt scrutinise these deals a lot closer. Most prices I hear, such as the making of a road, is just plain theft. I recall one number I heard many years ago, was $1,000,000 or so per kilometre to build a road. Theft, pure theft. There is no other way of describing it, and yet I hear nothing in way of challenges or scrutinee. Everyone just sits back and quotes the worn out mantra, 'it's their problem, not ours, it's what we pay them for'. What, to steal? I would love to see a royal commission on the issuing of govt contracts, it would be a wonderful revelation to finally punish those habitual govt thieves, once and for all.
Posted by ALTRAV, Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:49:15 AM
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Steele,

Most Aboriginal settlements, a.k.a. 'communities', are run by a council which is an incorporated body. That incorporated body therefore has responsibility for the operations on the settlement, including housing, since individuals can't own any of the land or, currently, lease any of it. So they can't slap a house on any of the land there and own it (even if the land on which the house sits is leased to the home-owner for, say, 50 or 99 years), that's the council's job.

So governments take on the responsibilities of an incorporated body which otherwise they would be responsible for. That probably trims down the definition of 'self-determination' somewhat, but until some bright spark comes up with the idea of, I don't know, leasing land for housing maybe, that's the way it will stay.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 May 2018 10:52:44 AM
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I have spoken with people who actually asked the Dept of housing to pay rent for the land the house is on. Then there were houses that people had to pay rent for several months before they could move in because the Dept engaged "engineers' had not connected water tanks so the occupier had no acces to water because the mains are only on for a few hours every second day.
Housing in such communities has been & still is a goldmine for contractors, a headache for bureaucrats & a frustration for the tennants.
I have personally called the "blue" phone for housing to request water be connected or severe leaks be attended to only to be told 'you need to call the blue phone' & when I told them I already done so several times, I was told there was no record.
Irresponsible people are on both sides of the fence & usually the ones on good salaries are the ones in charge of the hurdles being put up.
Community housing is a bureaucratic dream/nightmare depending on which side you're on.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 May 2018 11:58:25 AM
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