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The Forum > General Discussion > China Getting Closer To Australia In A Real Sense

China Getting Closer To Australia In A Real Sense

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UN sanctions against China? His naive can you be, Aidan?
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 7 May 2018 1:33:24 PM
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Wake up Paul !

Are you so naive that you don't realise that China's intention is to 'domesticate' the South China Sea ? Perhaps I shouldn't use such big words: what they clearly want to do is declare that all of the South China Sea, up to the borders of Singapore and Indonesia and the Philippines, Chinese national territory; on incredibly spurious grounds, to declare all of that sea to be exclusively Chinese; to make all maritime traffic passing through that area at least defer to Chinese ownership, and more likely to cough up transit fees; and to recognise the right of china to militarise the entire area.

On what grounds ? International courts have judged such actions to be illegal. What is the Chinese justification ? That, once upon a time, a Chinese ship sailed through that area and may even have landed in the Philippines and in other plans yes, ergo ......

Any historian of the region knows that there were all sorts of traders busily criss-crossing the entire area between the east India coast (the Coromandel coast: that's where it gets its name from, Paul), to Japan, to eastern Indonesia, even to Papua, certainly to the Philippines. Hence, for one thing, Hindu kingdoms all over south-east Asia, and even an ancient Hindu temple near Manila. Hundreds of years ago, before Cheng Ho, even Thailand and Japan were busily trading goods by sea with each other.

And of course, as the wonderful NZ scholar Peter Bellwood has pointed out over decades, the entire coastal regions of all of those countries, Vietnam, southern China before the Mings, the Philippines, Thailand, what is now Malaysia and Indonesia, were trading between each other, perhaps out into the Pacific. If anything, the Chinese were not only very much latecomers but - after Cheng Ho - the mandarins destroyed all of his maps and shut the doors on their ten or twenty years of international trade.

While the Chinese may be well up themselves these days

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 7 May 2018 3:12:51 PM
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[continued]

While the Chinese may be well up themselves these days, it's worth remembering that, since about 600 AD, China has been under foreign control, Mongols of different groups, Manchus, for more than half its history. Even the Mings may have originally been foreigners, perhaps even Christians. I suspect that Chinese history is far, far shorter than they like to trumpet, say 2500 years or less. And certainly, they've never been much of a maritime power. Sailing a ship to the Philippines doesn't give you the Philippines. Cheng Ho must have had to fight his way between Indian, Sri Vijayan, Mataram, Thai, Arab, Ceylonese, Vietnamese, Burmese, Japanese and Kampuchean ships to find a berth in the Philippines.

And if the Yanks wanted to pick a war, they could hardly have picked a worse place for themselves, with their supply lines now stretching thousands of miles. Perhaps they're left it far too late: with hindsight, perhaps Obama should have acted more decisively five or six years ago.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 7 May 2018 3:18:59 PM
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ttbn,
Much less na´ve than your treating China closing international sea lanes in the SCS as a "when" rather than an extremely remote "if".

Hypothetically if China did do something so incredibly against its own interest, I think a coordinated response of sanctions is far more likely than either rushing headlong into WW3 or doing nothing.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 7 May 2018 4:58:44 PM
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Hey ttbn,
I was going to add 'unless someone can explain to me why it is important', and I probably should have.

But why does it matter, seriously?
Are you planning on travelling to China by boat?
Should we expect be be invaded by China at point in the future?
In my opinion the only reason the Chinese would act against us is if we support the dying throes of a US that wants to keep global hegemony when its manufacturing is dead.
And don't forget the Chinese have a military pact with Russia, if there is a global conflict I honestly don't believe the US will win. If the US and Allies cannot win a wider conflict against Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, then I doubt they can successfully defend us.
- In that scenario, there won't be any point whinging over immigrants, because we'll become the half-way house of the planet when the northern hemisphere is completely radiated.

Do I want to be ruled by the Chinese? Hell No!
Hell No to all foreigners, you know my stance.
(And the 'Lesser Evil' can go and get stuffed too)

Letting them overstep their boundries on my home soil is a different matter though,
I'll be all over that like a rash pushing the boundaries of 18D...
What do we care about the South China Sea?
If there is resources there it wont benefit us.

We are more likely to wear crosshairs supporting the US.
The US aren't going to start manufacturing again anytime soon, they're done.
They are more likely to provoke a nuclear exchange rather than anything else.

And if we're so dumb that we lack contingencies for longer than 50 days then it proves we're lead by complete idiots.
What the hell are our ships doing there if those are the risks?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 7 May 2018 5:07:47 PM
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To ttbn [Con't]
We're probably not capable of defending ourselves even with America's help either, though it must be said we are completely unarmed and most snowflakes would likely shoot themselves or one of us by mistake if they were armed and faced enemies on our soil.
Do you really think it will happen?

You know I don't go in for any of this American Exceptionalism, American Interventionism, Israel First, New World Order, Outright Socialist / Communist ideology, UN targets, Corporate media, Global Banking, Global Government type stuff.
I won't trade one foreign master for another, I hate them all equally; Australia first and everyone else can go jump.

So why does it matter?
Why must I support the US and it's illegal global wars of aggression and imperialism?
Especially when I don't believe it's the right path?
Why and how am I wrong? - If I am?

I'm sure there are arguments why I might be wrong, but what are they?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 7 May 2018 5:13:42 PM
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