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The Forum > General Discussion > No Quarter Given to an Old Soldier by the ABC

No Quarter Given to an Old Soldier by the ABC

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Tax payer funded ABC scribbler, Tom Lowery, couldn't wait to get stuck into Coalition Senator Jim Nolan the very morning he was sworn in. Apparently the eminent General used social media to “share anti-Muslim clips posted by a far right group Britain First. (Gasp).

Well known (wink, wink) Labor MP, Stephen Jones, said that Molan should apologise for “bringing the videos to wider attention”.

Yeah, Jonesy. The rest of us would not have know about such things if the evil senator hadn't brought it to our attention. Actually, it was the Tom Lowery who brought it to my attention.

Oh, and Turbull should haul Molan over the coals, according to the Jones boy.

Another example of the fairness and lack of bigotry from the ABC, all before a newly installed politician says a word.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 8:05:02 AM
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yep well we saw the abc paying and giving air space to that air headed woman who claimed Islam was good for women. She also tweeted some pretty vile stuff. Thankfully she moved to London where her sense of entitlement and victimhood can continue to grow as she pours scorn over the country that rescued her from (what did Trump call those countries). Sometimes heroes like Molan must wonder why they put their lives on the line for such ungrateful wretches.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 1:32:04 PM
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I think without the ABC and newspaper bias, we'd all begin to make rational decisions!
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 3:22:01 PM
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Jim Nolan is an out and out war criminal. His conduct in Iraq was reprehensible and utterly unAustralian. While Australian pilots were being hauled over the coals for refusing to bomb targets that would have resulted in significant numbers of civilians being endangered possibly killed Nolan was bloody reveling in it. I have read his autobiography and this bloke is dead set far more Yank than Australian.

This country doesn't need some hard right Australian who has been embedded in the US ethic being able to sprout his biases without being challenged. good on the ABC once again. More strength to their arm.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 9:11:43 PM
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' Jim Nolan is an out and out war criminal.' we know the revolting cowardly Greens hate anyone decent Steelie. The Greens simply show how despicable they are.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 10:11:05 PM
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If we need to talk about un-Australians, look no further than Steelredux. What sort of person would call General Molan l a war criminal? A lowlife coward would be one answer. No proof whatsover, but this bloke, cowering behind anonymity, makes a wild statement with no proof at all. Having weirdo Left opinions about everything is one thing; but this comment is the most disgusting thing ever posted on OLO.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 10:14:53 PM
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the greens are totally bereft of decency. They hate Molan because he was competent enough to stop the legal boat trade. The Greens prefer the drownings and the flood of terrorism. Greens/abc are nothing but traitors of this nation. I suspect Steelie is married to Hanson Young.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 10:23:09 PM
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SteeleRedux,

Since when have wars been waged by disobedience to orders from the high command.

A soldiers job is to follow orders, not disregard them.

It seems, in your world, the sensitivities of a pilot, take precedence over battle imperatives to win the war waged!

Your view as a pacifist is irrelevant on this subject!
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 10:46:23 PM
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Dear diver dan,

You wrote;

“Your view as a pacifist is irrelevant on this subject!”

If you come out swinging then you really shouldn't expect the moderate response. Oh well let's get on with it then.

Why are so many of you bloody pathetic old farts so determined to be wanna-be Yanks? I and many others I know have taken some pride in the fact that we aren't as warmongering as them and we that hold civilian lives at a greater premium. It has always been a point of difference and one that my father spoke of when he was serving.

During the Iraq War Australian pilots refused to carry out direct orders to drop their bomb on 40 occasions. The main reason was “there were fundamental differences between the US dominated headquarters and Australian pilots over what constituted a valid military target”.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/13/1078594618101.html

I am a proud Australian who supports the decisions of our pilots and the fact that our rules of engagement are of a higher standard than those of the Yanks.

You sir have instead pissed all over their efforts, mocked and derided our standards, and sided not with your countrymen but rather the armed forces of another. Why on earth don't you move.

Bloody disgrace.

Dear runner,

As you know I am not nor have I ever been a Green. I don't even think I have ever even given them my first preference. I am however a proud Australian who having read Nolan's book thought he did not reflect the values and ethics of this country during his time with the American military. Far from it. His actions should well have landed him in front of an international court. You don't give orders to repeatedly bomb houses full of civilians in order to kill one man without expecting some to take offence.

But you haven't read his book have you? You just think because he was in the military and bombing Muslims then he is god in your eyes, incapable of being challenged in any way. You are so often just a poor blind fool.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 6 February 2018 11:51:51 PM
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I see that you have attempted to rewrite the Geneva convention.

It is not a war crime to strike a military target in a civilian area, however, it is a war crime to deliberately base military assets within civilian areas as this will increase civilian casualties. For example Hamas basing artillery and amunition dumps in schools and hospitals was a war crime as it made the schools and hospitals ligitimate targets.

Similarly, because intelligence is not 100% accurate and situations change, all allied pilots in the Iraq war had the discretion to call off air strikes, and Yank pilots were also recorded in doing so.

Recently ISIS were happily massacring the populations of their captured territories. The reluctance of allied pilots to cause civilian casualties against ISIS lead to ISIS basing many of their assets within schools or hospitals and using populations en masse as shields leading to 1000s of civilian deaths. Not to attack ISIS would lead to more civilian casualties than doing so.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 5:05:42 AM
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//Apparently the eminent General used social media to “share anti-Muslim clips posted by a far right group Britain First.//

Would these be the same videos that Trump apologised for sharing, which were shown to be fake?

If Trump has sufficient decency to apologise and Nolan doesn't, that really doesn't say great things about Nolan. It suggests that he has even less common decency than Trump, and isn't fit for any sort of public office.

From an article I read:

"The husband of Jo Cox – the Labour MP murdered by a far-right extremist who shouted “Britain first” – said people were used to Trump stoking outrage, but even so this was a “new low” for him. Brendan Cox said the issue was not about the diplomatic fallout, but that it legitimised hate.

In the Guardian’s Politics Weekly podcast, he said: “Providing a microphone to these types of views has a real impact. Hatred when you feed it has real costs – my family is just one example of that and there are many other examples in our society.” He argued that it “gives licence to people” to act on that hatred.

But he added that the response gave reason for optimism. “I think the reaction to it has been one of incredible unity – right across the political spectrum people were aghast.”

Well, right across the political spectrum except for a tiny little fringe of nutcases on the far right, who think that politicians promoting racist organisations isn't nearly as bad as journalists reporting the fact that they do.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 6:18:26 AM
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Steele, you have one up one the old farts, you actually read Nolan's book, none have claimed such knowledge.

The Yanks have a long history of committing un-prosecuted war crimes against civilians. It started with their murderous acts against the Native Americans. The worse being the senseless attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki with atomic weapons in 1945. Australians lending "moral" support from the sidelines. The Americans murdered countless civilans in Vietnam, the My Lai Massacre of 500 innocent, men, women and children in 1968, was just one case.

The warmongers continue their barbarity to this day. Justified of course, remember that Geneva Convention, a licence to kill.

Seems Nolan had some trashy Neo-Nazi nonsense on his 'Facebook' page. Typical.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 6:36:21 AM
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Lavis, The youtube videos of Britain First are not fake claims but exposure of criminal activities occurring in Britain. They are exposing rape and grooming activities against children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal Fake News: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eBRf0wnoFo&bpctr=1517951405
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 6:56:13 AM
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Lavis, Neither Britain First or Trump endorse the murder of Jo Cox. You post false claims in an endeavour to misrepresent. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jo-cox-shot-dead-britain-first-denies-involvement-labour-mp-birstall-shooting-stabbing-attack-a7086001.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3645342/Britain-denies-connection-attacker-witnesses-claimed-shouted-support-party-killing-MP-Jo-Cox.html
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 7:11:55 AM
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This is the video posted by Molan that he finds disgusting.
This type of action by thugs seems acceptable by the ABC, SteelRedux and Lavis.

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialBritainFirst/videos/1279021592243099/
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 7:34:31 AM
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runner, diver can, Shadow Minister, Josephus,

I think that we have to accept that Paul and SteeleRedux are not reasonable, normal people. They are losers and haters, beyond redemption. They were not socialised by their parents, so they don't know how to behave. Fairly typical of the extreme Left. Out of control.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 7:34:35 AM
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' I think that we have to accept that Paul and SteeleRedux are not reasonable, normal people'

unfortunately ttbn they are typical abc indoctrinated lefties. They specialise in sleaze, demonising decency and hate.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 7:38:17 AM
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"unfortunately ttbn they are typical abc indoctrinated lefties. They specialise in sleaze, demonising decency and hate".

Yes, runner, there is truth in that. We should be thankful that there aren't more of them.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 8:29:08 AM
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Toni,

Like many from the left you tend to vastly overshoot the mark. That Nolan retweeted posts showing violence perpetrated by muslims originally posted by Britain first means that he is concerned about one issue and not that he unequivocally supports BF. Trying to conflate this with the murder of Jo Cox is laughable and why most people take the left whingers' claims with a large dose of salt.

That most of the people on the street have some level of concern about the level of violence and failure to integrate of many of the recent migrants from muslim countries is to some extent justified and calling them all Islamophobes is clearly not working.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 9:06:45 AM
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runner,

Just another thought. The loony Left is as you describe it. However, I think that it takes an already flawed personality to sign up to the doctrine. These people never originate anything, but are attracted the 'evil geniuses' who are always looking cannon for fodder. These are the sort of people who would have thrived under Josef Stalin - until he tired of them and had them bumped off.

I note that Molan says he regrets his tweeting, or whatever it was he did, but only because the political activists used it against the government. So, the creeps have done him a favour with an early glimpse of their nasty tactics. As an honest, decent man, who probably should have stayed out of politics, the senator is going to learn very quickly about the scum he is going to be dealing with.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 9:31:29 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Please don't divert. This is pretty simple. Either you support Australian service personnel and their rules of engagement or you pillory them. There are some here who feel we should be unquestionably follow the US chain of command and should not be disobeying orders even when they clearly countermand our own ROE.

In my opinion no true Australian can take that stance. It is bordering on treasonous and should not be tolerated.

Are you capable of giving a direct answer to which side of this you lie?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 9:36:59 AM
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If this ex trumped up military twit did not support the violent actions of the far right's Britain First movement, as seen in the video he posted on his 'Facebook' account, then why post it in the first place. Secondly, if Molan did not agree with the violent behaviour displayed, why didn't he say so, and if he was not proud of this video, why did he wait so long to remove it.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/feb/05/new-liberal-senator-jim-molan-shared-anti-muslim-videos-from-britain-first

I agree with Senator Hanson-Young, Molan is a supporter of white supremacists.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 10:15:54 AM
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Toni Lavis.

Joe Cox was unfortunately murdered. Coincidently she was a British MP.

John Lennon was unfortunately murdered. Coincidentally he was a British musician.

The common link is a deranged killer!

The remainder of your vexed post is outside the square. Differences of opinion exist inside the comfort zone of peace, and that difference is by far the norm.

SteeleRedux

You are tying yourself up in tantrumonious knots.

RAAF pilots should follow orders from their commanders; whatever they are.
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 11:10:54 AM
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//Lavis, The youtube videos of Britain First are not fake claims but exposure of criminal activities occurring in Britain.//

No they aren't. For example, their claims about the video from Holland - the first that General Unpleasantness shared - have been shown to be false. The perpetrators weren't even Muslim.

http://www.vox.com/2018/1/26/16936682/trump-apology-retweet-anti-muslim-videos-britain-first

http://www.snopes.com/muslim-teens-beat-girl/

So the man is a liar. And because you're so gullible, you've just atomatically pushed the 'I believe' button because it's so much easier than being sceptical.

//Lavis, Neither Britain First or Trump endorse the murder of Jo Cox.//

I never said they endorsed it. Why are you making things up, Jehosophat? Do you really think that everybody is as gullible as you?

They don't have to 'endorse the murder of Jo Cox' to make airing their hateful views harmful. Go back and read what Brendan Cox said:

"Providing a microphone to these types of views has a real impact. Hatred when you feed it has real costs – my family is just one example of that and there are many other examples in our society."
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 11:26:33 AM
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SR,

I was commenting on your statement "Jim Nolan is an out and out war criminal" which is complete bollocks. The rules of engagement of the US and Aus both far exceed the requirements of the Geneva convention, and while JN might not meet your lofty ideals, unless he deliberately hit targets that were solely civilian, he is not a war criminal. Given that the intelligence that the pilot is acting on may be wrong or out of date, the final decision and onus lies on the pilot and his judgement and training.

However that being said, rules of engagement have flexibility due to circumstances. For example, if ISIS thugs are shooting civilians, do you attack them at the risk of killing some unarmed civilians, or do you abstain and let them all be killed? This was exactly the dilemma faced by the RAF in bombing a prison in France when the SS was about to execute a large group of resistance members. The result was that roughly most of the prisoners escaped, while were killed as a result of the British attack.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 11:45:15 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Just as I thought. A straight answer to a direct question was too big an ask.

Okay. In the first two weeks of the Battle for Fallujah, which Molan oversaw, the Red Cross estimated well over 800 civilians were killed. How many civilians do you think Molan conceded were killed during that time?

These are some of the things that occurred during the conflict. Phosphorous weapons were used in violation of the Geneva convention. Orders were given that whoever appeared in the night vision goggles of US forces after curfew were to be eliminated without the need to confirm their status. Early on the US forces used a school as a base of operations. They forced the closure of the main hospital and then placed snipers on its water tower to slaughter those who tried to use it.

The US forces regularly shot unarmed wounded prisoners, one incident was even captured on film.

“A Marine corporal who was videotaped shooting an apparently injured and unarmed Iraqi in a Fallujah mosque last year will not face court-martial, the Marine Corps announced Wednesday.”
“Maj. Gen. Richard F. Natonski, commanding general of the I Marine Expeditionary Force, said that a review of the evidence showed the Marine's actions in the shooting were "consistent with the established rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/no-charges-in-fallujah-shooting/
Molan was deeply embedded within the command structure and would have given many of these orders himself.

Do you believe shooting a wounded prisoner is within the rules of the Geneva Convention? Do you believe Australians should accept that it is "consistent with the established rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict” when it is patently not? Do you think an Australian soldier would be within his rights to refuse an order to kill and unarmed wounded and captured enemy fighter?

Nah. Scrap that. Your answer will be tiring for both of us. But I will press you on how many civilians Molan thought were killed within the first 2 weeks of fighting? Just a ballpark figure is fine.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 12:07:27 PM
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SteeleRedux having the gall to talk about true Australians. Now there's a joke for you, coming from a true anti-Australian.

As far as I am aware, refusing to obey orders still attracts a Court Martial. There's no conscious 'vote' in the military.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 12:13:15 PM
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SR, you are making wild and unsubstantiated claims, asking vague and unspecific questions then demanding exact answers.

WRT to the Iraq invasion and the occupation, Aus forces were not directly involved in the hostilities, and the attack on Fallujah was an exclusively US affair, so the whole issue of terms of engagement are irrelevant as is your question.

As for some of your other BS claims, only some phosphorus weapons are banned, and not the weapons used in Iraq. Similarly, shooting a prisoner, wounded or otherwise is illegal, but your example does not specify whether the individual was a prisoner or even attempting to surrender, which is crucial in determining the legality of the action. And again your assertion that the US regularly shot unarmed wounded soldiers is unsupported.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 2:10:13 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Oh good lord do we really have to keep spoonfeeding you lot?

Molan was sent to serve as Chief of Operations of the Multi-national Forces including US troops in Iraq and played a significant role in the Battle for Fallujah. His own bloody book was titled 'Running the War in Iraq' for god's sake. He was awarded the US Legion of Merit for his services.

So to my 'unsubstantiated claims'. Let us explore a couple.

School used as a base.

It was this very issue that caused the first deaths that lead to a general uprising. From Wikipedia;

“On the evening of 28 April 2003, a crowd of 200 people defied a curfew imposed by the Americans and gathered outside a secondary school used as a military HQ to demand its reopening. Soldiers from the 82nd Airborne stationed on the roof of the building fired upon the crowd, resulting in the deaths of 17 civilians and the wounding of over 70.”

Phosphorous.

Although the US is one of the few countries which haven't signed the agreement on restricting its use they had agreed not to use it directly on civilians nor combatants but only for illumination purposes.

“"It was used as an incendiary weapon against enemy combatants," spokesman Lt Col Barry Venable told the BBC - though not against civilians, he said. The US had earlier said the substance - which can cause burning of the flesh - had been used only for illumination.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.stm

Sniper.

The Iraq emergency coordinator for Médecins sans Frontières ;
"The Americans put a sniper position on top of the hospital's water tower and had troops in the single-storey building," ... "The hospital had four operating theatres, which could no longer be used. If they had been working, it would have saved many lives."
He said MSF wanted an independent inquiry to determine why the US military used the hospital as a military position - a violation of the Geneva convention.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/apr/24/iraq.rorymccarthy

Any others you want substantiated?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 3:05:47 PM
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Hi, just noticed this discussion. Andrew Bolt has had a look at the videos, and in his opinion they are factual. Haven't had time to follow all the comments here but thought I would throw this in to see what the consensus was. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/the-media-is-wrong-jim-molans-videos-are-real/news-story/4d40c226026be52a1aacb8071ddd9888?from=htc_rss
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 3:55:57 PM
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I don't know much about Senator J. Molan.
However here is a link that I found written back in 2008
on the Iraq war and Senator Molan's involvement that deserves
a read. The link is taken from an article written on this
Forum:

http://onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7710
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 4:20:31 PM
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There is no doubt that the ABC is a purveyor of fake news, and Labor and the Greens are just doing what Labor and the Greens always do. I could only get the Bolt video as a narrow strip, and the audio wasn't much help; and the silly old Scotch communist calling Molan a racist was far from edifying.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 5:12:08 PM
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Graham,

Thanks for that link, it shows once again that Labor and the greens have no problem lying through their teeth.

SR,

I am not sure why you think that vague snippets of events that occurred in Iraq with no context or link to Molan constitutes spoon feeding me proof of Molan committing war crimes? Where are the orders issued by Molan that directly facilitated specific war crimes, or is simple association sufficient? Either you are intellectually sloppy or simply have nothing but innuendo.

Secondly White phosphorus is considered an incendiary and not a "chemical weapon" and the use of which is not covered under the Geneva convention but a separate convention to which the US is not a signatory.

Finally

"Having been under complete insurgent control since April the city was a thoroughly prepared defensive fortification. Thousands of buildings were fortified, houses booby trapped to take out whole platoons, streets were dug up to retard the progress of armoured vehicles.

There is a wealth of evidence that Abu Musab alZaqri and his Al Qaeda forces were the organizers of the insurgency in Fallujah. Fallujah was, for a long time, a home base for the car bombs being directed to Baghdad and elsewhere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Phantom_Fury#Insurgent_forces

Finally, it was exceedingly uncommon for an insurgent to surrender in the battle for Fallujah. They were there to die in Jihad and take as many people with them as they could."

Foxy,

I can always trust you to find a left whinge "intellectual" with no experience in the field to write a polemic on the issue.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7710#120293
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 5:38:08 PM
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All these references, tossed up as 'proof' that a poster's opinion is the correct one, merely show that (a) someone else agrees with them or, (b) the reference is responsible for their own opinions in the first place. A total waste of time and effort.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 6:16:20 PM
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Hanson-Young did her usual white supremacist rant against Molan, but the Greens themselves could be accused of the same thing. A photograph of their cabinet, gang, or whatever they call it, shows that they are all white. Not very 'supreme' though.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 7:42:49 PM
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Of course Bolt would say that, I would expect nothing less. I still have reservations about the 'Bolt Beat Up' from last year, and who staged that. Still no arrests, and the hard right on the forum claimed at the time; "Arrests are imminent!"
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 8:33:39 PM
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Lying again Paul.

You are the one that used the word imminent.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 7 February 2018 8:47:08 PM
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I have never had a good word to say for Malcolm Turnbull, but I have to commend him for standing by Jim Nolan, who will help counteract the Left wing twits, including Turnbull himself, now infesting the Coalition. The latest revelations about Barnaby Joyce indicate the the government certainly needs an injection of decent people.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 8 February 2018 8:04:45 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

I don't choose articles (or discard them) due to their
political leanings. I actually did not know the political background
of the author of the link that I found on this forum. I simply
chose it because it dealt with the issues under discussion and as I
stated I know nothing about J. Molan. However, what is it about the
article that you disagree with (apart from your usual stance of
discarding things that don't appeal to your own political
viewpoints). Brushing things aside smacks of intellectual laziness.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 8 February 2018 9:07:23 AM
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Pull the other one Foxy:)
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 8 February 2018 9:17:51 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Open wide now you little cherub and watch the airplane come in to land.

Let's try something really basic first.

I raised the US forces using a school as a military outpost and using a hospital as a snipers nest. I gave links to each. You did not contest either.

Earlier you had said;

“For example Hamas basing artillery and amunition(sic) dumps in schools and hospitals was a war crime as it made the schools and hospitals ligitimate(sic) targets.”

Please explain.

Oh and since you were so reluctant to give a guess on how many civilians Molan claimed in his book were killed in the first 2 weeks of battle let me answer, one. Yup every single other one of the over 2000 bodies they allegedly recovered only one was identified as a civilian.

From the book;

“We had killed 2175 and wounded an unknown number. The total number we killed would rise past 3000 (that was the number of bodies recovered). In the first two weeks of fighting, we had detained 1801 insurgents, so not every member of our opposition was a martyr. Of those we had detained, about half were released for various reasons; we had 974 on hand by 23 November.”

By December 10 “The price we had paid in lives so far was now 72 dead and 648 wounded, of whom 293 were lightly wounded and would return to duty. I noted that we found the body of one person identified as a ‘civilian’ and 66 ‘civilians’ who had been wounded.”

My goodness what a piece of work this bloke is. Utter lies completely disproved by multiple sources. This claim is despite late night bombing raids on the family homes of fighters.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 8 February 2018 10:49:36 AM
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Here again we see the extreme hypocrisy of left passion of SR, AJ and P, for support of Muslim thugs in Europe and terrorists in Iraq and their support of racist Blacks to burn down white Australia and adopt Muslim sharia, but consider Molan the evil one who is passionate for Australian laws and cultural integration. It is time to put under surveillance those that support thugs and racists that threaten action to undermine civil harmony in Australia.
Posted by Josephus, Thursday, 8 February 2018 10:56:05 AM
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Not surprisingly, the bar room lawyers and Ranters have hijacked this thread for their own purposes. Rather than address the topic: the ABC, Labor and Greens cowardly attack on a just-inducted senator, they have directed their vicious bile at the victim, Jim Molan.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 8 February 2018 11:05:26 AM
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ttbn,

Pull the other what?

Be more specific. But it will cost you for me to do it.
And will your wife approve?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 8 February 2018 12:17:18 PM
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Foxy,

Just my leg. As my wife would tell you, not much else is possible these days.

Seriously, though, you are a political creature like the crest of us, and you are not going to use references you don't more or less agree with. This is why I never look at anyone's references if they are trying to convince me of something. Of course they are going to look for things that back their own ideas up. Mad not to.

I did look at what Chris Doran said 10 years ago. He has excellent Lefty credentials, and even referred to globally notorious loony Leftist liar Noam Chomsky. All his other sources are from the Lefty media.

But, as I said in an earlier post, I was interested in the treatment of Nolan by political opponents, not about what he did in his professional capacity. All the yap about war crimes is well outside our ken and for far more influential people than we are to deal with.

I think people who make such serious accusations against people should watch their step. Their are libel laws in this country and, as you pointed out recently to another poster, online anonymity might not protect them.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 8 February 2018 12:52:25 PM
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Foxy,

Not discarding an article because it is a factually deficient polemic is intellectually lazy.

Just a hint, if you quote an article on a political scientist from a Aus university, you are unlikely to get anything that resembles reality. His acceptance of 2nd and 3rd hand accounts from Iraqis as gospel truth and statement that the US was using chemical weapons (white phosphorus) is also bollocks that a 30sec google search will reveal.

SR,

I did challenge you accounts. Your statements are extremely short of details and context and not linked to any directive by Molan, and as such do nothing to support your assertion that Molan is a war criminal.

For example the soldiers shooting at protesters outside a school, were the protesters shooting at the soldiers? The hospital in Fallujah was purportedly being used as a base by the insurgents, and given that most of the civilians had evacuated and that there were 50 000+ heavily armed combatants trying to kill each other, I doubt that normal operations there were possible.

And to crown it all, you have yet to show that Molan who had a high level control of the battle had any hand in any particular atrocity.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 8 February 2018 2:35:12 PM
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Dear ttbn,

You're probably right. We do choose sites that make sense to
us - whether we are aware of it or not. And I agree, that's normal.
I do still adhere to the fact though that I really was not familiar
with this author - and thus not aware of his political stance.
Anyhow - not knowing all the ins and outs of the actions of J.
Molan - I thought the link an interesting one. So that still
stands for me. It's good to hear from more than just one point of
view- that's how we learn and can weigh things up.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 8 February 2018 3:04:02 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Regarding facts...?
I guess it depends on one's frame of mind - doesn't it,
and who's presenting them. Some people only accept
what agrees with their political inclinations. And
class everything else as unacceptable - using a variety
of labels. But I guess - that's politics. And I
suppose that's - also normal.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 8 February 2018 3:08:55 PM
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Dear Shadow minister,

You wrote;

“For example the soldiers shooting at protesters outside a school, were the protesters shooting at the soldiers? The hospital in Fallujah was purportedly being used as a base by the insurgents, and given that most of the civilians had evacuated and that there were 50 000+ heavily armed combatants trying to kill each other, I doubt that normal operations there were possible.”

What a bloody lame response.

I know a typical tactic of yours is to kick the can down the road as fast as you can when it gets the least bit sticky but this is pretty woeful.

Let me draw you back to the fact that the US occupied the school and used it as a military base and did the same with the hospital. This is something you said was a war crime when Hamas supposedly did it. These were both operational decisions not spur of the moment.

Why is it legitimate for the US forces to act in a way that would normally have them condemned as war criminals in your eyes?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 8 February 2018 3:24:26 PM
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Dare we mention the "fracas" visited upon our not too distant neighbours the West Papuans ? Many soirees, cross border incidents and skirmishes over the past 30 years or so into their territory by our own AustCam clad forces and SFA said about that...just a "good training environment" within a short C130 flight from Darwin or Townsville. Good value for the taxpayers too I'd reckon.

Maybe it's that decapitated & disembowelled activists with fuzzy hairdos aren't the 'flavour of the month', or kids burnt alive in their haus sak saks just simply aren't as newsworthy as places with kids living in 'other' places with lots of oil to fight over getting their limbs removed by surgically precise bomb strikes?

Certainly money well spent by the likes of the Indonesian government, & the miners in Freeport and its environs.

SAS doesn't stand for Saturdays And Sundays either...

But Aunty can't or won't report anything about that, perhaps it's just too sensitive or politically inconvenient to touch...nothing like the smell of hypocrisy in the morning...the smell of: Caaarnbra at its finest !
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Thursday, 8 February 2018 5:07:54 PM
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SteeleRedux, while we're on things military, bullets, ordinance & stuff, why is it that most Australians are unaware that several Australian jurisdictions state/territory police forces within the Special Operation/Tactical Response wings still use ammunition of a type banned under the Geneva Convention?

Simple answer: because policing in a domestic environment is not a "warlike activity" thus they are not bound by Geneva Convention or Hague Convention rules & principles, therefore they can use expanding type projectiles in "operations" as deemed necessary by the relevant police commissioner of the day.

So at the end of the day it's not ok for civilians (or enemy combatants either) to be shot by soldiers using expanding bullets in warfare or whilst on military operations...say overseas - but it is ok for your local TRG sniper to ventilate you (a civilian) with an expanding bullet if you're holding up the local Westpac branch.

Funny you might say, peculiar even that the silence from Human Rights groups, various basket weaving & rainbow flag wavers etc & The Greens for one instance, on this matter is deafening...how is that ?
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Thursday, 8 February 2018 5:30:31 PM
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As a pacifists I am always intrigued how the warmongers of this world have devised a "civilized" set of rules (the Geneva Convention) as to how state sanctioned murder should be conducted.

Thou shall freely blow his head off in a civilized manner, but they shall not gas him with poison gas, that being extremely uncivilized. Interesting.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 8 February 2018 8:10:18 PM
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SR,

I shrugged off the comparison between Hamas hiding munitions and soldiers in a school full of children as human shields and the US using school buildings (devoid of children) as barracks, as I seriously didn't believe you could be that stupid.

Do you seriously think that the Geneva convention covers buildings?

For god's sake grow up. I have yet to see one shred of evidence from you that Molan committed war crimes.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 8 February 2018 8:21:36 PM
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I have been following the Middle East situation as I am sure most of the contributors here. i usually, that is, more than 50% of the time, disagree with the Greens over matters of Defence policy or general administration of borders, immigration and policing - finding them invariably idealistic. But in the case of Jim Molan I find myself on their side. The general has kicked an own goal by tweeting from a right wing blog which Trump did but apologised for. This sort of thing aids Islamic fundamentalists and extremism. Secondly, I hate Islamic extremism very much and think the Greens have traditionally been too soft on it but the actions of Jim Molan while he was leading and conducting and now ideologically defending the 'coalition of the willing's' actions in Iraq has done more to lead to the very Islamic extremism he so condemns in all his and his party's posturing. Like Nixon and Kissinger in Cambodia during the 1970s extensive bombing of Cambodia leading to the genocidal, iconoclastic Pol Pot and the Kymer Rouge, the actions of the US, the UK, Australia and allies in the ill-fated war in Iraq have created the conditions for the rise of Islamic State. Well bloody done Jim!! i'm glad you aren't my boss and I wouldn't want my kids to serve in the military with bloody idiots like you in charge and now you want to go in and create havoc generally in the government of this country as well.
Posted by Metal Guru, Thursday, 8 February 2018 9:17:48 PM
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Dear Shadow minister,

You really are more slippery than a butchers dick aren't you.

The reason we can't get to Molan is you refuse to accept even the most basic evidence even from the BBC but offer nothing to refute it.

This is probably the incident regarding Hamas to which you are referring;

“Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip. UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations. This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law. This incident, which is the first of its kind in Gaza, endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA’s vital mission to assist and protect Palestine refugees in Gaza.”
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school

The school had not been used as such for over 4 months. So following your logic being devoid of students it becomes just a building and doesn't allow the label of a war crime, so why use it on Hamas?

But note your morally bereft stance. To you hiding of weapons is more of a crime than occupying a school and mowing down unarmed civilian protestors, or closing a hospital during a conflict order the removal of all patients then placing snipers above it. How many people perished through lack of medical care? This was a war crime.

This kind of perverse thinking is hardly likely to offer any possibility of you accepting Molan should be brought before an international court on charges is it.

So you tell me mate, Molan says there was only one civilian casualty during that period of fighting. Do you believe it?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 8 February 2018 9:19:40 PM
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Steele you are arguing with an unfair advantage, you have actually read General Brassbottoms book, while Shadow was busy with the Charlie Chuckles column, aka Andy Bolt, in the 'Telecrap' shame on you! Next time you will have to argue over something Shadow reads, like 'Alice In Wonderland'.
Shadow when can we expect that imminent arrest in the Bolt beat up you claimed was about to happen?
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 9 February 2018 6:47:11 AM
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SR,

You grow more slippery every day.

More like this:

"UN Report Confirms Hamas Stored and Fired Weapons from UN Schools"

http://www.thetower.org/1955-un-report-confirms-hamas-stored-and-fired-weapons-from-un-schools/

"Hamas admits it DID use schools and hospitals in Gaza Strip as 'human shields' to launch rocket attacks on Israel - but claims it was 'mistake'"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753176/Hamas-DID-use-schools-hospitals-Gaza-Strip-human-shields-launch-rocket-attacks-Israel-admits-says-mistake.html

The only reason that the schools were empty at the time of the inspection was that it was school holidays. However, the children were still using the playgrounds.

"Only the people responsible can know for sure why Palestinian militants would use civilian buildings, but any real possibility is bad. Maybe militant groups use civilian buildings like this UN school simply because they don't mind the danger this creates for the Palestinians they claim to protect. Maybe it's because they are hoping that the rockets will be safer in a UN school because Israel won't want to bomb it, which means using Palestinians kids and teachers as human shields. An argument you hear from Hamas's harshest critics is that they are hoping Israel will target the schools, thus rallying people to their side."

As far as the "school" incident was concerned, it appears that the soldiers were fired on by some of the "unarmed" protesters. As far as the hospital was concerned, evacuating patients from the center of a raging conflict is hardly a war crime. SR you are clutching at straws and sinking rapidly.

Paul,

Lying again, I never claimed that the arrest was imminent or about to happen, those are your words.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 9 February 2018 6:51:17 AM
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Apart from the the usual and total diversion from the actual topic, which was about a politician and his first day at work and not about his past life a a soldier; and apart from the crap from the two resident Ranters, Paul and SteeleRedux, this has been an interesting discussion, highlighting the ignorance of some, and the intelligence of others. If you are interested to know more about Ranters, information on these 17th Century lunatics is available on the internet. For people who believe in evolution, our two Ranters don't seem to have evolved at all from the ignorance of 300 years ago.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 9 February 2018 8:03:22 AM
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So the General is a SAenator now given the lacksadaisical procedures of the fascist's/tory's/conservative's coalition. I wouldn't believe this bloke is he told me that the sun was going to rise in the morning. I wouldn't trust him as far as I could spit. Giving accounts conflicting with 1) the Red Cross 2) Medicines sans Frontieres 3) the UN Raconteur in Fallujah. I know who I would believe and for all those virtue signalling so-called patriots who rush to his defence because he was a general in uniform I ask them what was the justification for commencing the war in Iraq and our participation in it however small? Answer: absolutely none. I support Adam Bandt on this and agree that from the evidence presented Jim Molan is a war criminal and his membership of the Liberal party makes him a fascist who is a danger to Australia and mankind. I hope the Greens and the ALP pile in on him. worthless piece of garbage!!
Posted by Metal Guru, Friday, 9 February 2018 4:21:00 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

"So you tell me mate, Molan says there was only one civilian casualty during that period of fighting. Do you believe it?"
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 9 February 2018 6:26:49 PM
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Steele, Shadow only believes what he reads in the 'Beat Up Bolt' column in the 'Daily Telecrap'. He will post another link to that worthless Murdoch gutter press shortly. has a lifetime subscription, did you not know.

Shadow, how is that police investigation going? Is an arrest imminent as you claimed.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 9 February 2018 6:50:35 PM
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So we have another nasty new arrival in Metal Guru, who calls Moylan a war criminal. This is a deliberate case of defamation and unless they can produce evidence and lay charges they must be silenced in court. This is a public forum and not a closed discussion board. I believe Defamation claims can be made so those claiming war criminal status will need to produce evidence of such before a court.
Posted by Josephus, Friday, 9 February 2018 7:06:18 PM
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"Jim Molan has done sterling service for Australia. Being an adult means making decisions based on principle and evidence. It doesn’t mean that you know the outcome of every decision. The Greens have not learned this lesson".
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 9 February 2018 7:43:32 PM
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Apparently Adam Bandt has apologised for calling Molan a war criminal. That must be very confusing for the Green goons.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 9 February 2018 7:47:12 PM
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Bandt has made a grovelling apology after Jim Molan mentioned possible defamation action following an earlier weak attempt at an apology.

He "sincerely" apologised to Molan and "those who served in Australia's operational theatres" and to "their friends and families who were offended by (his) comments". He also said that he would make a donation to a veterans organisation.

Garrulous Green back pedals when he has to deal with a real man.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 9 February 2018 8:43:02 PM
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ttbn, a real man does not participate in the deaths of innocent men, women and children. Then again, you might have a different idea of what constitutes a real man.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 10 February 2018 5:25:37 AM
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Paul,

Hello! There is no such thing as deathless war. War is about killing. I don't like war any more than you do but, when it occurs, I would much prefer my side does the killing rather than them being killed. Innocent people die, yes. Nobody has found a way to avoid that, and none of us are really innocent because we don't take enough notice of what politicians and other nasties do that leads to war.

Remember, nobody hates war more than a soldier. He is the one who has to kill and be prepared to die. A pacifist like you will never understand that, and you really have no business making judgements about things you don't understand.

As far as the real reason I started this thread goes, I'm pleased to see a non-politician like Molan going into politics. He is clearly not going to sit back like the born-to-rule dills and play silly buggers as they do. He has put a Gutless Green (Bandt) back in his box, and I don't think he will tolerate the wet PC bulldust that comes from Bandt and those of his ilk who are constantly trying to undermine the country and people they are supposed to be serving. People like Bandt are a disgrace who represent a mere 10% of the Australian people, whine about offence, but resort to abuse and hate themselves, non-stop. Jim Nolan his the type of bloke the country has been lacking for far too long.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 10 February 2018 8:25:56 AM
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SR,

Through all of this you have yet to enlighten us with a single bit of information that implicates Molan in war crimes. Do you actually have anything or is anything you post not BS.

Paul,

Considering that the greens were active participants in encouraging people smugglers and are complicit in the 1200 people drowning at sea, I guess that there are no real men in the greens.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 10 February 2018 9:25:22 AM
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War occurs as a result of a political decision - usually
a decision by older men that younger men should fight
for what the older men believe to be worth fighting for.
There can be no war unless the leaders of at least two
societies with conflicting interests decide that they
prefer war to any alternative means of settling their
differences. The soldiers themselves go to war - frequently
not knowing that they are fighting for, and usually terrified
of meeting the enemy in battle - because a legitimate political
authority is determined on that course of action.

War is actually a highly structured social activity. It cannot
be sustained without a strong political authority that can
persuade people to risk their lives for a purpose beyond
themselves. Many factors may influence the decision to go to war -
the personalities of the leaders; the influence of nationalist,
religious, or other ideologies; the extent of popular support
for war; the anticipated economic gains or losses; the ambitions
or advice of the military; perceptions or misperceptions of the
other side's motives and intentions; the expected reaction
of the international community; and, of course, expectations about
the likely out-come of the conflict.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 10 February 2018 9:28:02 AM
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In his article 'A lesson for the spiteful Greens' yesterday, Greg Sheridan wrote that “It is perfectly legitimate to criticise his (Jim Molan's) views” but what the Greens did with “calculated, extreme and grossly insulting comments” was an “attack his character …. on the basis of his military service”.

Apart from Brandt, there was McKim, who called Molan a “blatant racist” who “revels in trampling rights and freedoms”. And, the Galah in Chief, di Natale, yapped about Molan causing “hunger and deprivation”, in a “war against a civilian population”.

My natural instincts and sense of decency lead me to accept run of the mill Greens supporters as fellow human beings and fellow Australians, but their spokesmen are utter rubbish. I agree with Sheridan who describes them as “a narrow, sectarian group, imprisoned in their own prejudices”. Their attack on Molan, “one of the bravest and most important soldiers Australia has produced in the past 40 years” was “grotesque”. Sheridan lists just a few of the brave acts in his article
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 10 February 2018 11:06:06 AM
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Good articles from the SMH on why he should apologise for sharing material from a violent extremist organisation:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/why-is-it-so-hard-for-jim-molan-to-apologise-for-sharing-britain-first-material-20180206-h0uycj.html
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/letting-the-far-right-in-how-jim-molan-helped-give-extremism-a-respectable-face-20180208-h0vsal.html
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 10 February 2018 11:28:02 AM
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Shadow, this military hack the Liberal party has roped in as its second choice for the vacant senate seat should fit right in.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 10 February 2018 6:23:16 PM
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Toni,

The first mistake is that the material is not from British First, it was posted by others first and then shared by BF. These verified videos of unprovoked assaults on unarmed men and women by muslims if anything are demonstrations of racism by an intolerant minority.

The point that the radical left incl the greens are trying to make is that if you don't suppress genuine videos like this you are racist.

Molan has nothing to apologize for. In fact the only grovelling apology was from the moron Bandt who started to realize the consequences of lying on TV.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 11 February 2018 3:55:12 AM
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One-time senator, Bill O'Chee, has described Richard di Natale as a "pestersome popinjay" 'Complete rotter' would be more accurate.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 11 February 2018 8:35:05 AM
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//The first mistake is that the material is not from British First, it was posted by others first and then shared by BF.//

And then shared by Molan.

"Or he [and you] could consider the words of Jo Cox's widower, Brendan, on why legitimising Britain First content through social media is so dangerous.

"When you drive hatred it has consequences, people lose family members. I am testament to that," Cox said, after Donald Trump retweeted posts from the organisation's deputy leader Jayda Fransen.

As Cox told Fairfax Media on Wednesday: "Those who excuse and encourage the hatred of Britain First and their ilk are doing the work of the terrorists for them. Elected politicians cannot claim ignorance and must not be allowed to walk away from the effects of their actions."

Then there's Marek Zakrocki, jailed for driving his car at a curry house owner in north London, who told police "I'm going to kill a Muslim. I'm doing it for Britain". Zakrocki was a donor to Britain First and had their flyers at his home in Harrow.

In the case of Darren Osborne, who drove a van into Muslims worshipping at the Finsbury Park mosque in London last year killing a father of six, he became radicalised in part by reading Britain First material online. In the weeks leading up to the attack he received an automated direct message from Fransen.

There is a clear pattern between Britain First and violence. Anyone who says, as Molan does, that they are anti-violence misses this critical context and should therefore have no trouble in condemning this organisation and apologising for sharing their content.

Even Donald Trump came to this conclusion. So why does Molan continue to dig in?"
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 11 February 2018 9:47:50 AM
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And why do you to continue to dig in on his behalf? Because apologising would mean losing face in front of the Greens, and that's worse than being seen to legitimise violent extremism? Those are some pretty warped priorities, dude.

You just don't get it, do you mate? You think it's all about some sort of political one-upmanship to make the Greens look foolish (shooting fish), rather than sending a clear message that violent extremists like Britain First have no place in our society. Lending any sort of legitimacy to extremists like Britain First isn't just offensive... it's dangerous and stupid. Even if Molan does not subscribe to their extreme views, even if he did not know who Britain First were when he posted the videos, even if he acted with only the most noble and pure of intentions... it was the wrong thing do and he should apologise for that mistake.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 11 February 2018 9:48:43 AM
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Toni,

Considering that the videos were unedited and cannot be racist in themselves. That JM made no commentary that referred to BF whatsoever means that the left whingers are simply conflating the issue to the point of the absurd.

Given that the radical left are trying to suppress any information that might put their protected minorities in a bad light, it can be argued that the greens are the ones legitimizing extremist violence.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 11 February 2018 2:53:22 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

I asked you a direct question based on a direct quote from Molan's from his own book (unless of course you are going to question even him as a reliable source) and you have again attempted to divert the discussion rather than answer it.

Here it is again;

So you tell me mate, Molan says there was only one civilian casualty during that period of fighting. Do you believe it?

Now how about an answer.

If in the event you feel completely incapable of doing so could you at least furnish a reasonable explanation as to why.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 11 February 2018 2:53:27 PM
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SR,

You are asking me to comment on a tiny fragment of information cherry picked from an entire book (to which I presently have no access) with no context or qualification. I tried but can't find anything reliable on civilian casualties on the web.

In short given that there was a tremendous effort to allow civilians to leave Fallujah before the battle, the civilian casualties should have been very low. Certainly the claims that US troops were deliberately shooting women and children are complete bollocks.

Given that you have failed to directly link JM to any war crime, will you give him the same grovelling apology that Bandt gave?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 11 February 2018 3:30:32 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Mate you are probably going to live forever since I think you could probably worm your way out of death itself. Bloody hell.

I'm happy to start typing out pages of the book. How many do you think you would require?

As to the "war criminal" status of Molan that of course is only my opinion because his conduct hasn't been the subject of a proper inquiry. I think any trial involving the Greens should welcomed as it would shine a spotlight on his time as one of the overseers of that infamous 'Battle of Fallujah'.

But you yourself have set one of the parameters for a war crime.

"it is a war crime to deliberately base military assets within civilian areas"

You have not disputed the fact that the US used a school as a military HQ nor used a hospital as a base with the water tower as a snipers nest, ergo these were war crimes.

So if Molan is able to be connected with the decision making around even just these two instances then by your definition he would be guilty of war crimes.

Or will you be redefining that definition as expected?

Slippery bugger.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 11 February 2018 4:04:35 PM
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//Considering that the videos were unedited and cannot be racist in themselves.//

But they become racist when they are used as propaganda by lowlifes like Britain First.

How would you feel if we lived in a parallel reality where General Unpleasantness was a new Labor Senator, and he'd perviously shared a video which had been used as propaganda by ANTIFA, but didn't make any commentary referring to ANTIFA? Would you be so quick to claim that a video is just a video, and that its use as propaganda by a violent extremist organisation is of no concern or relevance? Or would you be outraged and calling for his head? I wonder...

I'm not sure if you're really up to date on Britain First, Shadow. It doesn't sound like it from your posts. These aren't just the sort of right-wingers that are annoying but mostly harmless; these are your classic extreme-right skinhead types. They're not good people. Even very conservative British commentators like Piers Morgan condemn these people has disgusting thugs. I mean come on, dude... if Piers Morgan and Trump can bring themselves to condemn these people, what's stopping you? What's stopping General Unpleasantness?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 11 February 2018 4:18:22 PM
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//Given that the radical left are trying to suppress any information that might put their protected minorities in a bad light//

Protected minorities like Netherlands born, non-Muslim Dutchmen who beat women? Jesus, the radical left really have broadened their umbrella haven't they?

If the radical left are trying to suppress information about violence by 'protected minorities' (whoever they may be, I'm assuming vegan transgender whales and Muslims), they're doing a remarkably crap job of it. Because I hear plenty about Muslim violence. I guess there just aren't enough people under the very far left of the Gaussian distribution to be very effective at suppressing information on such a large scale.

//it can be argued that the greens are the ones legitimizing extremist violence.//

O.... kay. Pretty sure the Greens aren't sharing videos from extremist organisations, mate. Most of the Greens I've met are full hippies with a distaste for violence that makes Quakers look bloodthirsty.

I don't vote Green (because they're full hippies, and hippies irritate me). I'm a Labor man. And I'm worried about how far the political division is widening in this country when condemnation of thugs like Britain First is not a broad, bipartisan position.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 11 February 2018 4:18:53 PM
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SR,

You said:"Jim Nolan is an out and out war criminal. His conduct in Iraq was reprehensible and utterly unAustralian."

Which was a lie and outright libel, and the fact that you are not likely to be dragged to court is because OLO is not widely read. Adam Bent realized that it was libel and gave JM a grovelling apology.

As for the definition of a war crime, the school and surrounding building were not occupied by any civilians and was clearly demarcated as a military base and thus was not using civilians as shields. As for the hospital, the hospital and surrounding area was occupied and the civilians removed, so this does not apply either.

Toni,

Is a knife racist if held by a KKK member, and righteous if held by Martin Luther King? The answer is that it is the purpose for which it is used is either racist or not.

That it was posted by BF was probably for racist purposes, that the left whingers had to search more than a year through JM's posts to find these videos and found nothing else even vaguely racist shows that they were really scraping the barrel.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 11 February 2018 9:10:47 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Yet another admission of a war crime from you.

It is a war crime to deliberately deny access to medical services particularly civilians which is what Molan did.

This is from IRAQ AND THE CASE FOR AUSTRALIAN WAR CRIMES TRIALS from Spirit of Eureka

http://www.spiritofeureka.org/index.php/news-a-articles/229-iraq-and-the-case-for-australian-war-crimes-trials-part-2

That there is a case for Molan to be tried as a war criminal is obvious and I am firmly convinced that all things being equal he would be convicted.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 12 February 2018 1:02:22 AM
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SR,

That the hospital was being used as a base for Jihadis means that it was a legitimate target. The Jihadis that remained were arrested, the patients were moved to other facilities and once the area was secured the hospital opened for genuine civilians and not just for Jihadis.

Is this the best you can do?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 12 February 2018 5:10:38 AM
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//Is a knife racist if held by a KKK member, and righteous if held by Martin Luther King? The answer is that it is the purpose for which it is used is either racist or not.//

Whatever, dude. You obviously just don't have enough common decency to condemn the likes of Britain First if it means you have to agree with people to the left of you, like Piers Morgan.

But no doubt you still consider yourself quite moderate. XD
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 12 February 2018 7:02:04 AM
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Shadow Minister,

You might like an argument, but you are only encouraging Steeleredux. You are giving him opportunities to continue spewing his vile dogma and make his libelous accusations. People like him never give up. No matter what you say they will keep coming back like a bad smell. Now, while I agree with your point of view and I despise SR and his nonsense, the back and forth is now pointless and tiresome. SR is one of three ratbags on OLO who desperately need an audience for their fringe-dwelling lunacy, and you are playing the game they want to play.

As the instigator of this thread, I am annoyed that 99% of the garbage that has been aired since I started it has NOTHING to do with the topic. It has turned into a pissing contest.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 12 February 2018 7:43:49 AM
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A tip for Steeleredux. If he keeps up with his ignorant rants about 'war crimes', he might find out that hiding behind a nickname might not protect him as he thinks it does. Pedophiles and bullies can be plucked out of the ether; so can he.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 12 February 2018 8:58:38 AM
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Toni,

This is the very time I have heard of Britain First, and as JM has not said or done anything to promote them, they are largely irrelevant, and unlike the left I am not given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research. All I can say is that from initial inquiries they look like the old National Front and generally a nasty piece of work like the British communist party.

However, the link between BF and JM is extremely tenuous and almost certainly unintended. I often repost information that I see on twitter without checking the provenience of the information. The unprovoked attacks by Muslim immigrants is now a fact of life in the EU and people are fully entitled to express their disgust at this state of affairs.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 12 February 2018 11:03:34 AM
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//as JM has not said or done anything to promote them//

Other than sharing their propaganda.

//unlike the left I am not given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research.//

What leads you to the conclusion that I haven't researched them? Do you think I just plucked the idea that they're mongrel skinhead thugs rather a British equivalent of One Nation out of thin air?

//they look like the old National Front//

Remarkably so. Given the tendency of far-right groups to schism and form splinter groups, I'd say it's quite likely that some of them are ex-National Front members.

//the link between BF and JM is extremely tenuous and almost certainly unintended.//

Yes, I suspect it was probably unintentional. He should still take responsibility for his mistake. A brief statement from the senator clarifying that he was unaware that he was sharing Britain First propaganda but that now he is aware he realises it was an error to have done so, and repudiating them as violent extremists whose values he does not share, is surely not too hard for him?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 12 February 2018 11:56:41 AM
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and of course Senator Molan could of gone to any country where muslims preside in numbers and found the same behaviour and hatred that he posted. There are literally numerous accounts of rioting, violence, rape, domestic violence that all except our regressives national broadcasters show. To demonise Molan for exposing such ideologies is just another tactic of the left bereft of morals and desperate to hide the truth. Obviously truth exposes their own putried ideologies.
Posted by runner, Monday, 12 February 2018 12:33:38 PM
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Toni,

//Other than sharing their propaganda.// JM shared a video that BF shared not the propaganda that BF put with it. The videos themselves are free of bias and propaganda.

//What leads you to the conclusion that I haven't researched them// Nothing. I never claimed that you hadn't.

//Yes, I suspect it was probably unintentional. He should still take responsibility for his mistake.// He never shared their propaganda and has nothing to apologize for.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 12 February 2018 1:16:08 PM
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//JM shared a video that BF shared not the propaganda that BF put with it.//

Yeah, I don't use facebook and I'm not familiar with the platform.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-05/liberal-senator-jim-molan-shares-anti-muslim-videos/9397246

But the phrase 'shared posts from the group' suggests to me that he shared Britain First propaganda. Because if was they were posts from Britain First, then they were Britain First propaganda. That he shared. Am I missing something here?

//Nothing. I never claimed that you hadn't.//

Really? Because you did say:

//unlike the left I am not given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research.//

And I'm on the left. So therefore the logical conclusion is that you think I am given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research.

It's an erroneous belief in my case - and I suspect it would be an erroneous belief when applied to many on the left, who you happily all lump into one big generalisation.

//He never shared their propaganda and has nothing to apologize for.//

See above. Perhaps I just don't get facebook, but it sounds like he was sharing material Britain First posted. And if that is the case, then he definitely owes the voters an apology and an explanation.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 12 February 2018 7:32:51 PM
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Toni,

Let's put this simply. The same material has most likely been shared by thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, with thousands of different reasons. The vast majority of whom have nothing to do with BF. Does JM by sharing this endorse the views of every single person that shared these videos? That is patently ridiculous.

Similarly, your logic is deficient. The statement that cows have 4 legs, cows are mammals, thus all mammals have four legs is the same illogic that you used when claiming that I accused you of not researching BF.

As for the gratuitous commentary of the left, I have seen far too many examples to believe otherwise.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 12 February 2018 8:17:27 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“That the hospital was being used as a base for Jihadis means that it was a legitimate target.”

Oh bullshite! Prove it you apologist for war crimes and war criminals.

“A second area where the U.S. has received widespread condemnation for violations is in the complete breakdown of Iraq’s medical infrastructure, coupled by continued attacks on hospitals and other protected medical facilities and equipment. The UN expert human rights body was so shocked at the blatant disregard for the continued military operations against the medical infrastructure in Iraq that it issued Resolution 2005/ 2: Prohibition of military operations directed at medical facilities, transport and personnel entitled to protection during armed conflict. Both the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights and the International Committee of the Red Cross issued strong condemnations following the attacks on Fallujah’s medical infrastructure in November 2004 (88). Attacks on Fallujah’s medical infrastructure was followed by attacks on hospitals in Haditha, Al-Qaim, Tall Afar, Ramadi, prompting a major campaign sponsored by the Brussels Tribunal and many other international groups (89). Because protection of hospitals and medical personnel was the original purpose of the Geneva Conventions, these attacks are also viewed as against the Geneva Conventions themselves.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/war_crimes_iraq_101006.pdf

Both are deemed against the Geneva Convention and thus qualify as War Crimes.

Please try and rise above some inane twaddle to argue the opposite. It might make this a little less tedious.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 12 February 2018 9:22:35 PM
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SR,

Name calling, you must be desperate.

Given that the jihadis and Al Qaeda standard modus operandi was to use schools and hospitals as cover for their operatives and you are making the outrageous claims of war crimes, the onus is on you to show that the hospitals were Jihadi free. Good luck with that.

What you provide is a fatuous polemic from a far left whinge organisation, then you deliberately misquote it which is just sad.

Just recently a case opened against the Sri Lankan army who shelled a hospital was dropped because they showed that the rebels were firing artillery at them directly next to the hospital.

Maybe you ought to read the relevant articles in the Convention before spouting such bollocks.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 6:58:22 AM
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//Does JM by sharing this endorse the views of every single person that shared these videos?//

Did he share posts from them as well?

//Similarly, your logic is deficient//

1. IF people are on the left THEN they don't do their homework properly.
2. I am on the left.
3. Therefore: I don't do my homework properly.

Nope, that looks like a valid modus ponens argument to me. No affirming the consequent there. I disagree with the truth of the conditional statement, but the argument is valid even though it's unsound. On the other hand;

1. IF people are on the left THEN they don't do their homework properly.
2. Shadow is not on the left.
3. Therefore Shadow does his homework properly.

Denies the antecedent and is thus fallacious.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 8:58:44 AM
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Toni,

Your logic is that because BF shared these videos, whoever shares these videos is endorsing BF, even if they had no idea of who BF is? Extending the logic, they must also be endorsing the opinions and ideology of every one else that shared these videos.

Even blind Freddy could see that this is ridiculous.

Social media 101, most people are connected to hundreds or thousands of people. When connections share information or videos that they find interesting it comes up on everyone's page to whom they are connected to, and all that is required to share it again is one mouse click. Virtually no one does any research on the provenance of the material that they share and to expect so is extreme idiocy.

Similarly,

Your first line of your logic

"IF people are on the left THEN they don't do their homework properly." would only be valid if what I'd said was: "unlike EVERYBODY on the left I am not given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research."

As this is patently false your entire line of logic justifying the offense to your delicate sensibilities is complete bollocks.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 10:20:48 AM
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Well folks I think we have arrived at the nub of it.

Shadow Minister wrote;

“Given that the jihadis and Al Qaeda standard modus operandi was to use schools and hospitals as cover for their operatives and you are making the outrageous claims of war crimes, the onus is on you to show that the hospitals were Jihadi free. Good luck with that.”

This was exactly the mindset of those prosecuting the war in Iraq and the Battle of Fallujah in particular. Unless concrete evidence could be obtained to the contrary then medical centres were deemed to be used by insurgents and therefore legitimate targets.

This grotesque debasement of the rules of armed conflict led to horrendous outcomes for the civilian population and insurgents in places like Fallujah. Their access to life saving medical interventions during the conflict were either severely limited or made impossible. This was flagged as a war crime by both the UN and other international bodies.

Jim Molan brags about his pivotal role in the decision making during this phase of the war. There is no doubt in my mind in the very least he has a case to answer.

There are many fawning, partisan, sycophants who are prepared to support Molan and his actions without question.

This is not what we should be about as a country though. Britain had its inquiry into the Iraq war, ours is long overdue.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 11:26:11 AM
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SR,

You claim: "This was exactly the mindset of those prosecuting the war in Iraq and the Battle of Fallujah in particular. Unless concrete evidence could be obtained to the contrary then medical centers were deemed to be used by insurgents and therefore legitimate targets."

That's pure bollocks. Conflating my general comment to specific actions taken in a war zone is the most desperate lie I have seen from you in years.

Yet again I ask you whether you have any specific information on war crimes (as defined by the Geneva convention and not your pisscat mates down the pub) committed under the direction of JM?

Otherwise a grovelling apology similar to Adam Bent's is due.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 11:50:41 AM
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//"IF people are on the left THEN they don't do their homework properly." would only be valid if what I'd said was: "unlike EVERYBODY on the left I am not given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research."//

When you refer to 'the left' as a set, it is assumed that you refer to all members of that set unless you specify otherwise. Because otherwise you'd refer to a subset rather than the whole set.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 12:33:55 PM
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Toni,

WRT "unlike the left I am not given to commentary on parties or institutions without some research."

I am not referring to the left as a set. You are trying to apply a statement made in general terms to be specific. This is both a failure in logic and the use of English.

E.G. If I say "The Finns like to holiday in July" using the same sentence format, I am implying that most Finns like to holiday in July, and only an idiot would believe that my statement includes every single Finn in every circumstance.

However, if you are determined to take offence, go ahead, but, if you want sympathy buy a dog.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 13 February 2018 3:15:32 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“Conflating my general comment to specific actions taken in a war zone is the most desperate lie I have seen from you in years.”

Ah get yer hand off it ya tosser. What do you even mean?

The fact was medical facilities were quite deliberately targeted by the Americans under Molan. This was not just a one off but rather a pattern which drew strong rebuke from the UN at the time.

You have said they were legitimate and thus supported actions that many regard as war crimes. No lying here mate, just telling it like it is. You sooking up doesn't change a thing.

Than again you could try to prove it was a 'lie', but that would involve you providing evidence, something you have been extremely adverse to supplying in the past. Here's your chance. Go for it.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 15 February 2018 5:57:23 PM
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SR,

Don't be a insufferable twat, you are already an apologist for every half baked Islamic extremist group as long as it is fighting Israel or the US. That these murderous muslims happy butchered an order of magnitude of their own more than US soldiers is of little import to you compared to the tokenistic gesture of keeping a hospital open in the middle of a major battle.

As to which of these rag headed terrorist groups use civilians as human shields Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Al Qaeda all have a rich history of it. So don't be surprised if I take your tantrum as a joke.

You have made the claim that JM is a war criminal but have yet to offer more than innuendo, I would expect more integrity from a rat.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 15 February 2018 8:31:55 PM
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Well as far as I'm concerned ANYONE ON THE LEFT that pushes any ideology which seeks to destroy or undermine MY country in any way IS NOW A 'COLLABORATOR'.
The left want to attack and abuse anyone they feel like, using names to vilify.
We'll the gloves are off because I'm not playing defense anymore.

I'm gonna start throwing some petrol on this fire instead of putting up with it.
To hell with all of it.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 17 February 2018 7:42:44 AM
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Oh and by the way
The US and Israel are immoral imperialist terrorist nations.
And Islam want to destroy every western country and cut all our heads off and rape our daughters, and George Soros and even our own PM in supporting them coming here want to let them do so.

So IMHO they can ALL go and get stuffed.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 17 February 2018 8:28:44 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Really? The 'well the other side was worse' defense?

You do realise how it looks don't you? 'Molan might have don't some bad stuff but in comparison to what the insurgents did he should be congratulated not investigated'. Not going to fly I'm afraid.

This is pretty simple, would you support an inquiry into Australia's involvement in the Iraq war including all seconded personnel like Molan so we can get to the bottom of what really happened?

Dear Armchair Critic,

I can only wholeheartedly agree. Anyone who by their actions or their words needlessly damages this country's reputation should be outed as traitors. For instance all those involved in the AWB scandal should still be behind bars including all those Liberal politicians who 'couldn't recall' on the witness stand. We should have marched on parliament house and thrown the lot out.

I'm not going to stand for it any longer either so sign me up mate.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Saturday, 17 February 2018 8:37:24 AM
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SR,

Only an illiterate idiot or a weasel would claim that I was offering "'well the other side was worse' defense". I was simply pointing out your deficiency in morals in fabricating "offenses" by the US while outright denying the plethora of human rights violations by your protected species the raving muslim jihadi.

As for an inquiry into Aus forces in Iraq, given the tiny Aus force, and that it virtually never saw combat, have you any basis for this inquiry other than a desire for a fishing expedition?

So far you have squat.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 17 February 2018 3:50:21 PM
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