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The Forum > General Discussion > Exploitation of Child Workers.

Exploitation of Child Workers.

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While many retailers’ cash registers rang loudly over the festive season, once again the annual holiday period was used as an excuse to exploit vulnerable workers. Following the exposure of a massive wage rip off by the mega rich mob down at ‘Seven Eleven’, not once, but twice, it has been revealed that the high profile and highly profitable ‘Bakers Delight’, a 700 store chain multinational, has been found to be using an outdated 2006 Howard Government ‘Work Choices’ deal to pay young workers crumbs, as little as $8 an hour, or as low as $38.50 for a four hour Sunday Shift. No doubt the festive season proved to be a real windfall for the bread boys, after paying those lousy rates, they flogged off plenty of overpriced loaves which resulted in some real dough pouring in, but unfortunately none of it for their hard working, exploited child workers. ‘Bakers Delight’ general manager Gerry Gerrard said; “Bakers Delight's 2006 agreement offered non-monetary benefits and "flexibilities" that help make up for the lower overall pay.” What are they Gerry, a free bread roll at the end of a kids shift? ‘Bakers Delight’ is owned by co-founders Roger and Lesley Gillespie who in 2015 had an estimated shared personal fortune of about $150 million according to the BRW Rich List.
Many within the retail industry see it as their god given right to illegally exploit workers, with cash in hand, use tax avoidance and pocket GST for their own selfish use. As one unnamed retailer said “If it wasn’t for these “sie’sees” as the French would say, how else is one to make ends meet! Without them I would find it impossible to provide my dearest with the basic necessities of life, such as a new BMW every Christmas.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 6:30:08 AM
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Dear Paul,

According to an editorial in The Age investigative
reports over the past 18 months Fairfax Media has exposed
the underpayment and exploitation of workers at some
of the country's largest and best known retail and
hospitality companies, Coles, Woolworths, McDonalds,
7-Eleven, Caltex, Baker's Delight to name just a few.

It is high time that the exploitation and under-payment
of workers was stamped out and that companies were held
accountable.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 10:01:16 AM
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Surely the fact that the media is exposing wage inequities all the time means that people are being held to account? I know it might sound cruel, but the people working in the lowest paying industries- retail and hospitality - are not all that bright, and they are not much good at their jobs, mainly because they resent having to do work that society has told them is demeaning. Governments and 'regulators' are not interested, so it is left to the media to expose and embrarrass exploitative employers like Bakers Delight and 7 Eleven. I think that they are doing this fairly well. I know that is effective in SA. More than a few Bakers Delight franchises have changed hands because of exploitation of staff, after customers have turned their backs on them.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 11:00:56 AM
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Oh dear, here you go again Paul, sticking your nose into someone elses business.

What you lot don't get, is that at least these people, many who are all but unemployable HAVE A JOB.

Now sure, they may not get paid the double time you feel they are owed, but seriously, many are simply not worth it.

What you should be doing is allowing society to work out their own situations and drop the rediculous penilty rates simply because its a Sunday. A seven day society, as demanded by consumers should have an even pay rate.

Of cause i have asked you before why a coffe should cost twice as much labor cost on a Sunday as a normal day, but you refuse to answer, so lets hope you do this time.

We have moved on from the 90's Paul and youre welcome to catch up any time you like, but do be warned, a low paid job is far better than no job and thats where you are leading us to, like it or not because the moment the baker increases his Sunday rate, you shop elsewhere.

You have to either agree to pay the extra, or move aside and let businesses trade without the likes of your noses in the way, because unless you are one of those workers, IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 12:09:37 PM
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Another thing you clouns dont realize it that we had two extra public holidays thrown at us this year. The first being Christmas day, not a PH but still had to pay wages WITH ZERO INCOME MYSELF, then had to pay for MOn & Tue, then same for NYD, plus Monday although this was the 1st day of 2017.

Of cause i could have reworked the rosters so my staff were off Christmas day, but thats not how i operate, but as if you care about what i do Paul, you prefer to tag me as the bad guy, it makes for a far better strory hey mate.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 12:13:21 PM
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Am I right in noting that someone doesn't comply with lawful wages and conditions "because that's not how I operate" or did he not express himself clearly? I bought bread at Baker's Delight this morning and would have happily paid the extra to cover the firm's compliance with the law, even though I'm a pensioner with a tight budget. It's pin money.

As for GST, that's a regressive Theft Tax which was introduced to cover a 17% reduction of corporate taxes, it was never approved by the public (whose only option was periodically to choose between corrupt political parties which never let on what they intend to do) and dunno about y'all but I would have no moral qualms about dodging the Theft Tax with the co-operation of a tradie.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 3:44:53 PM
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Do you know anything EmperorJulian, or do you like telling stories.

John Howard took the GST to an election, & won. You can't do more to offer your policy at an election.

I don't like it much, because of what has happened to the distribution. It is now used to prop up our 2 failed states, Tasmania & South Australia. This is not what Howard proposed, but is typical of lefty activities when ever they get into power.

Do try to get some facts right, for your whinges.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 5:57:47 PM
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Yes, Julian. The people did approve the GST when they voted for the Howard government. Howard brought it up, said that it would be, included in the the next election and, voila, we had a GST, well after other civilized countries. And WTF does the GST have to do with youth wages?
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 6:40:59 PM
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The Howard team took office only by a gerrymander as the Beazley team got more votes than the Howard team. There wasn't one element of either team's policy that the people were even asked to decide on. Just pick one of the teams on offer - and they didn't pick Howard.

The GST got through the Senate only because enough Democrat senators voted opposite to what the people who voted for them expected of them from their own written policies.

It was totally a pollies' decision and not a decision of the voters but the product of a gerrymander plus a blatant deception of the voters by the Democrat pollies through a back room deal.

There's no way the people voted for a GST.

Data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_federal_election,_1998
Posted by EmperorJulian, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 7:42:27 PM
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//Of cause i could have reworked the rosters so my staff were off Christmas day, but thats not how i operate, but as if you care about what i do//

You're damn right. Nobody cares that you had to pay your staff extra because you forced them to work on Christmas Day, you miserable old Scrooge. It was your choice and nobody forced you, so if you feel you've been hard done by it's your own damn fault. Quit bitching.

Who on earth is buying meat on Christmas Day anyway? I thought everyone bought it beforehand.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 10:49:13 PM
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nice rant there toni, but i didnt open christmas day, but still had to pay public holiday rates to the staff that would have worked.

What i should have done was rostered them off for the day, then changed their rosters back after the hols, but im not that sort of employer, but then again, you dont want to here that as you prefer to stick the knife in when ever you get a chance.

The entire system is in much need of a revamp because times have changed yet unions wont change with the times. Oh well, i guess they will have to go down the hard road wont they.

We have slashed the budgets and now taken a big stick to those who have worked their guts out, the retirees. Who's next on the list i wonder.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 11:20:30 PM
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BTW toni, i guessed you missed the part where i said 'WITH NO INCOME MYSELF' meaning i did not open Xmas day, yet still had to pay wages to those who didnt work, plus the two allocated holidays. Or perhaps you didnt miss it because the facts were not juicy enough for you.

Why should there be extra public holidays just because Xmas day falls on a Sunday?

Where is the fairness in that i ask? Why should businesses have to pay millions in additional pay without any income because its a gift from their own pockets.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 3 January 2017 11:27:07 PM
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So the lawful remuneration for employees is tough on the employers. So adjust prices to recoup. Whether it's the employer through reducing remuneration or the customers paying too little for the service who rip off the employees who do the actual work they would remain ripped off - and the laws backed by the union specify that they don't be ripped off and that's what an employer complaining about the laws is seeking.

If the employees' work standards are inadequate then hire the right people and inspire them to be part of the team instead of whining about their remuneration. Something my father, who worked for a company that valued its staff, told me as a kid was that if you go into a chain store and the place is a mess and the staff are sullen and unhelpful the problem will be the management. This showed up in my own local Coles when the management changed and everything started looking up.

A hindrance to serious retail business is the pervasive culture of el cheapo with customers propagandised socially into forever seeking "a bit off" when the endless "bits off" add up to peanuts at the checkout. That's the "market economy" at work against decent service.

In the recent bad old days at my own local Coles store they would watch the queues like a hawk and checkouts would be closed the moment they didn't leave shoppers standing around long enough.

As I hate shopping with a passion I switched to an IGA where at the first sign of delays they'd call for another checkout to be opened. The bill would be a couple of bucks higher, no more. Also they didn't fill the room with ugly amplified Yank yowling and caterwauling but that's another issue. The new Coles doesn't either.

Inspire a team, pay them properly without complaining, and Bob's yer uncle.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 1:04:27 AM
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I've always been negative towards Bakers Delight.
It was their ad's I disliked, always using their own staff to promote their business.
I got the impression they were cheapskates when it came to spending however I assumed they would still try to charge you $5+ for a pie.
And probably extra for the sauce too; which I think should honestly be a criminal offense in this country.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 4:45:55 AM
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Is that right Butch, when it comes to law breaking "IT'S NONE OF (MY) BUSINESS." Well I think not, it is all of our business.

As for your "get with the times", nonsense its appears you want to set the agenda for the times. Nothing new with your bleating as an employer about workers wages and conditions. It is you who wants to return to the bad old days of exploitation of others, including children, with your send em' down the coal mines attitude.
As for your nonsense about "WITH ZERO INCOME MYSELF" you factor that into your profit margin with your pricing. If your customers accept your business model, and I assume they do, you make a handsome profit, I am not denying you the right to do that. However you give no consideration to other peoples, employees, their right to quality of life, the notion that holidays form part of that concept, does not ring any bells with you. You see your employees in the same light as your mincing machine, something to be used simply for your own benefit. At the end of the day, Christmas Day, there would have been a nice roast "turkey" on your table, and so it should be, but do not deny the workers, a day off to have the enjoyment of a roast "chook" on their table. and so it should be.

On the delights of 'Barkers Delight' I note the principles have not done too badly, with Roger and Lesley Gillespie having a personal wealth of $150 million (BRW Rich List), they are certainly not on the bread line.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 4:52:03 AM
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Hi Foxy, Coles, Woolworths, McDonalds, 7-Eleven, Caltex, Baker's Delight. do we see a commonality among these? It would not be they employee mainly children, migrants and women, vulnerable members of society who are the most open to exploitation, and some believe we need no laws to protect these people.
i recall the laughable rubbish that Howard went on with, with his worker bashing 'Work Choices'. According to Howard it was all going to be fair and equal. Take this scenario, we are in the managers office in a non union business. On one side of the desk is the migrant lady, Maria the cleaner, on the other side is the factory manager, HR manager and production supervisor. Maria has just been given her pre-prepared 'Individual Workplace Agreement' and told to sign. According to Howard "negotiations" would then be taking place before Maria signs the draconian agreement! It was laughable. This 'Bakers Delight' mob are using some such agreement. Oh! they love it, it may have been "negotiated" with 15 year old Cheryl at the Webeather store in 2006 under Howard's legislation.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 5:27:04 AM
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so answer my question Paul, why the extra holidays, and why not trade one for say Easter Saturday as an example. What is unfair about that?

As for making comparisons with the Howard era, you forget one VERY IMPORTANT FACT, the country was booming and anyone who wanted a job had one. Those day have gone thanks to Gillard mainly.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 5:42:16 AM
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Hi ttbn; "are not all that bright, and they are not much good at their jobs" not correct! Some of the brightest people I have met, have hardly spent any time inside a school room. You might be surprised at how good some people are at their job. Put a street sweeper on one side of the street, and you on the other, and say go, I would bet the street sweeper would do a better, and more efferent job that you would. I am sure that at your job, if you have a job, you would do it better, than I would.

Hi Hassy, as usual you are too far off to the right to be roped into any kind of reasonable thinking what so ever.

Hi AC, we don't purchase much of the commercial doughy kapok offered as bread by the likes of 'Bakers Delight', instead we rely on my partners traditional 'Rewena' and fry breads, she prepares at home. As part of her fund raising she flogs it off at $15 a loaf, and $35 a basket, and under our workplace agreement she gets nothing and wears all the costs.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 5:54:06 AM
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Paul,

Are you sure that you are qualified to judge how a a mythical street-sweeper would be more "efferent" than I? People, like you, who believe that they are 'superior', really need to be super efficient in their criticism. You fail.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 9:31:03 AM
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Paul,

Sorry to pull you up again, but....

Baker's delight is a franchise, and the stores are individually owned by the local manager.

Secondly someone > 15 3/4 yrs old is not a child labourer as per the legal definition.

Thirdly, there is the question of why the workers would have stayed if there were jobs offering far more?

Finally, as stated in the article, this agreement expired in 2009 why has it taken nearly 8 years for anyone to raise the issue? If the shoppies union is meant to represent these workers, then they are doing a really crap job. Perhaps they don't care as they are not likely to get the high union fees from minimum wage workers.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 12:43:43 PM
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How typically the bureaucrat is our Paul.

So obvious he has no idea of the running of anything, except handouts.

From Christmas to Easter, there are so many public holidays that small businesses employing a few to a dozen or two employees have real trouble earning the cost of their staff.

In the tourist industry up north, you could do OK in a good early January, & lose only a few tens of thousands, but chuck in a cyclone any where near by, in the first couple of weeks in January & you could be down a couple of hundred thousand by the end of February.

Even in industry, in the big smoke, many were going to lose money between 20Th December & Easter, with all the overheads, with low returns. In my exchange components business, I needed a considerable bank balance coming into Christmas, to carry both the business & me through the next 4 months.

Amazing how many can sit back & pontificate from a position of total ignorance.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 12:48:23 PM
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Does the cat have your tongue Paul. Surely one with your self confessed wisdom can answer such a simple question, why the additional public holidays and why are they not traded off with another PH?

And the likes of you sit there wondering why our workforce is so casualized or there are so many contracted workers.

The golden rule you should never forget Paul is that for every action there is a reaction and poor job security is the reaction of over regulated working conditions by the likes of yourself who are not effected.

As i said before, it is between the employer and the worker and is none of your business.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 9:43:23 PM
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Sorry Toni, i was only trying to have a discussion with you, so please dont run off just because you have been proven wrong.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 4 January 2017 9:45:08 PM
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Shadow, In the bad old days when the Tories, your forefathers, were calling all the shots, there was no child labour, they simply classed them all the same for the purposes of exploitation. Like Howard's 'Work Choices' laws you can enact any legislation you like and call it "legal"
The legislation covering age legalities when it comes to employment in Australia are handled by the states and territories. what are they?
In the ACT, NSW, NT, SA and WA, there is NO MINIMUM AGE, but they generally limit the type of work and the hours that can be worked. In QLD the minimium age is set at 13, but there are exemptions in some circumstamces for under 13's. In VIC it is 15, but you can work at 13 with parental permission, In WA it is 15, but again there are exemptions where those under 15 can be employed in certain industries with limited hours.
If you don't believe there is exploitation of children in the work place, alas "legally" as you put it, I suggest you think again.

"Baker's delight is a franchise, and the stores are individually owned by the local manage" And what about the multi-millionaires the Gillespie's? Where do they fit in.

On the score of unionism, the SDA is the one you are referring to, it is Australias largest, but its your kind of union, right wing do nothing type union, seen as a bosses union, always willing to accommodate.

Butch, I am happy with the holiday arrangements as they are now, see no need for change.

Hassy, you sound like a real philanthropist, I am always glad when you can pop out of the 'Centrelink' office long enough to make a ridiculous post.

ttbn the words is efficient, my typo, and they certainly would be.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 5 January 2017 7:13:01 AM
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ttbn, a story to illustrate my point about workers and your ridiculous claim that they;

"are not all that bright, and they are not much good at their jobs"

Many years back when I was working in a production industry, we were on strike. The management decided to "call in the army" in this case the non union management and staff. Well what a joke, the Production manager could not start the production machines, the maintenance manager was useless at setting the packing machines etc. They were relying on 1st and 2nd year apprentices to show them how its done! The rest of the motley crew, office staff, accountants and dolly birds were useless. They would have been better off calling in the trope of clowns from 'Wirth's Circus'grease paint and all than the mob they had.
When the strike was over, it took the dumb workers the best part of a day just to undo the damage they had done. A ball of laughs
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 5 January 2017 7:43:14 AM
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Paul,

The legal age to do work in NSW is 14 yrs and 9 months. And minimum casual rates for these teens is a fraction of those for adults, so I guess that there is still child exploitation throughout the nation.

In the days when your forefathers dragged their knuckles and ran the country into the ground, many people couldn't get work and those that could had to bribe the union officials. But I am glad that you admit that retail should be de unionised due to incompetence.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 January 2017 1:38:02 PM
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Paul.....Butch, I am happy with the holiday arrangements as they are now, see no need for change.

So what you are saying is that the bosses just have to wear the additional costs associated with the extra day.

Obviously you would not feel the same if the shoe were on the other foot now would you.

I wonder when the queen dies whether we will dump the queens birthday holiday. Do you think we should, or should we somehow invent another?

Perhaps this is one holiday we can dump in the event we have a reapeat of this previous year where Xmas day fell on a trading day given we are now a seven day society. After all, if you want a fair go, you must also give a fair go.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 5 January 2017 5:14:12 PM
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Shadow. like Butch you want to create your own industrial laws.

"The legal age to do work in NSW is 14 yrs and 9 months."

wrong! wrong! wrong! You are making it up as you go!

From the Australian Government Fair Work Ombudsman web site

New South Wales

There’s no age set for when you can start work.

For further information, contact the NSW Office of Industrial Relations external-icon.png or call 13 16 28.

http://www.fairwork.gov.au/find-help-for/young-workers-and-students/what-age-can-i-start-work

Yes, there are Uncle Tom's in the union movement, the SDA being one, what the kids need is some real representation, they need the CFMEU looking after them. Agree?

Hassy, I have never had a holiday for April 21st the Queens Birthday. have you? We should have a holiday on July 11th and call it Gough Day, more appropriate to celebrate a great Australian than something English, don't you agree?

Butch, I hope you did the right thing this Xmas and gave all your workers, to whom you owe so much, a decent Xmas box, $1000 each would have been good for starters, anything less would have been an insult. I hope you didn't just throw a few stale snags on the BBQ in the car park and yell "help yourself lads!" as you drove off in the new Mercedes!
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 5 January 2017 6:58:41 PM
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Paul, "should have a holiday on July 11th and call it Gough Day, more appropriate to celebrate a great Australian" RATBAG.

There you are mate, fixed it for you.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 5 January 2017 10:30:33 PM
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No, actually Paul i gave them the ultimate gift, i didnt sack them.

You see many small businesses took a large hit this time around, due to the relentless ongoing attack from the chains as they continue their unchecked path of total domination.

The sold hams at about $2 per kilo below production costs, turkeys as well and of cause none of this would be possible without the support from the consumer. Not that i am too worried because like many, i dont really need too many staff, i just choose to have them and they are a great crew happy in the knowledge they have a boss who cares about them.

Of cause this may well change in a month or so, but lets not put the cart in front of the horse, not just yet anyway. I fear this year will be hard on many small to medium businesses though as the goverments appear disinterested in their quest for monopolisation. They (governments) are all talk no action.

I hipe im wrong but i think we may see wages and conditions crash this year coming back to where they should be realy, as where they are now has come about from a shortage of workers, whereas now, we have a shortage of jobs.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 6 January 2017 2:23:49 PM
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Don't try to beat beat the chains on price, go after them om convenience and good service which requires good management and a committed lawfully remunerated team. Up to it?
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 6 January 2017 5:15:04 PM
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EJ we have gone from $300K turnover to just over 1 mill in less than two years, so we are doing just that, however, wages can only be a percentage of sales and when sales dip, wages should be cut and will if sales dont increase. I dropped $30K in six weeks leading up to Christmas and didnt sack anyone so as i said, i gave them the ultimate gift. Cant last forever though however the removal of rediculous weekend rates would save jobs because the simple math says a 50% increase is equivient to half of one job. But what would i know, ive only been in retail for 40 years.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 7 January 2017 6:26:17 AM
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So a businessman wants the law changed to reduce take-home remuneration for employees. Why should one not be surprised?
Posted by EmperorJulian, Saturday, 7 January 2017 11:00:15 AM
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Paul,

I have to eat crow, children below 14 3/4yrs can work, but it is still unclear as to whether they fall under the EBA. When my daughter was 14 she wanted part time work, but no one was prepared to accept her at her age. I do notice that the conditions and insurance are onerous.

As for the corrupt CFMEU, they would only take these guys on if they could line their pockets. If the CFMEU is the answer, you are asking the wrong question.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 7 January 2017 12:17:13 PM
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We could get rid of the ridiculous concept of the weekend and allow all businesses to operate seven days a week and stagger days off.
People would still be allowed leisure time but the big sporting interests would howl.
Up in India, in the big cities different suburbs have different closing days spread over the week so that there is always a full range of shops open.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 8 January 2017 8:51:56 AM
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Is Mise, good to see you mention INDIA when discussing working condition for Australians. INDIA is indeed a shine example of how workers should be treated. Butch will back you all the way on that, particularly the "official" minimum pay rate of $1.47 hour, but like Australia the cash in hand rate is lower, more like 50 cents/hour.

There are more criminals in small business than there are drug dealers (many of them are also small businessmen) in the rest of society. The ATO reported for 2015/16 that 5573 people dobbed in their employer for illegal cash in hand payments. Another 2813 complained about inadequate or no super being paid, 961 reported "payment summary issues", 736 complained that their employer failed to remit PAYGW, and 671 complained about the "status of worker" (whether they are legally an employee or independent contractor). The tip of the iceberg! If we persuaded all the small business criminals we would not have enough jails to house them all!

I am sure they don't have the same problem in INDIA! or in Bangladesh for that matter, or in Afghanistan,or in Dirtpoorville! and lots of other places you blokes would see as ideal paradises for workers!
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 8 January 2017 9:12:53 PM
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And do you know why many of these insidents ocurred Paul, BECAUSE THE CONSUMER WILL NOT PAY.

Consumers are forever seeking out the cheapest deal they can find, even turning to the trend of wasting shop keepers time by seeking their knowledge on an item, only to buy it cheaper online.

The number one reason some small businesses dont pay super IS BECAUSE THEY CANT AFFORD IT.

The likes of you want penilty rates, super, all sorts of leaves, domestic vilolence being the lastest one on the wish list, yet you also want to waste peoples PAID TIME while shopping online which in its self avoids taxes.

In other words, you want you cake, you want to eat it, and you dont care how you get it.

Many business people leave for work each moring risking their house, but that doesnt worry you, you just want everything you think you are entitled to, regardless of the consequences.

Well, you are getting your wish, but good luck with your grand kids having a job in this country because small business is heading south and you just cant see it.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 9 January 2017 6:00:32 AM
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"The number one reason some small businesses dont pay super IS BECAUSE THEY CANT AFFORD IT." WELL, THEY SHOULD NOT BE IN BUSINESS, if they are going to break the law! Anyway who told you that nonsense, your butler?

According to 'PayScale' the average income of a small business operator in Australia is $63,000 pa, so Butch put the pork into you snag bags, and don't spread it as porkies around here. Facts, deal in facts.

I ran my own small business for about 3 years back in the 80's, and employed a couple of Draughtsmen, I was certainly making more than I was paying them, but as professionals they were very well paid, and so they should be! I didn't need to pay them 'cash in hand' or 'milk the till' or engage in any other illegal activity.

Again I ask the question; If an employee feels they are being underpaid, is it all right for them to steal from the employer? Just as employers who feel that workers are overpaid steal from them.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 9 January 2017 6:51:07 AM
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Paul, if you want to make comparisons you need to compare apples with apples, as there is a huge difference between drawing up plans and retail or hospitality and, if a dras.. was required to work out of hours, the client would have no issues with paying the price, just like an after hours electrician etc.

The other very important issue is your mention of the 80's. Sorry mate but those days are well gone, its a whole new world out there mate.

Back then you could freely sack useless workers, as these days you just cant and many, especially in gov departments play that card for all its worth, and some.

It appears obvious you are completely out of touch so i suggest you listen to people involved, rather than just mouth off on something you simply dont understand.

The world you knew has gone mate!
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 9 January 2017 7:27:43 PM
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Butch, are you disputing that figure of $68,000 p/a average income for a small business person in Australia from PayScale? that is today's figure, not yesterdays, or last weeks, today's!
If you don't agree with it produce some figure that shows you and yours are on the bread line.

I say again TO THIS RUBBISH OF YOURS "The number one reason some small businesses dont pay super IS BECAUSE THEY CANT AFFORD IT."

BOLLOCKS!

"The number one reason some small businesses dont pay super IS BECAUSE THEY ARE GREEDY RIP-OFF MERCHANTS!

Please answer my question about theft! Or will the answer show you up as a hypocrite.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 9 January 2017 9:09:19 PM
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Paul, in answer to your question, literally millions of goods and cash are stolen by staff on an annual basis, so what is your point.

I would suggest the likes of Coles and Bunnings pay their staff by the books, yet still have to perform bag checks to catch the what they are paid means nothing to staff.

The other teft by staff are smoke breaks, where thousands of paid hours are stolen by smokers, or doesnt this count as theft to you?

As for the $68,000 you mention, try deviding this by the average number of hours worked and you will find many are well below the minimim hourly rate, and they often risk their house in the process.

Just on the $68K, i wouldnt get out of bed for that amount if i were running a business and employing people. If i pay $68K for anyone, i expect $68K for myself as well. 4 staff should mean $200K, if not, you should not be in business.

As i have said, you are our of touch

So perhaps
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 12 January 2017 7:58:10 AM
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Sorry for the higher than usual amount of typos Paul, i was interupted.
this then means some are making very little.

The point is that if small business owners are paid an average of $68K, then many are doing it very tough, just above, if not below, the poverty line because there are many small businesses making a million plus.

In fact, i would suggest quite a few owners have a small business because they dont want to be on the dole, although some would be better off.

The reality is, and this is whether you like it or not, times have changed and workers willingness to accept less, just to have/hold a job will increase and quite rightly so in my view because everything must go up and down with supply/demand otherwise there is no fairness about the whole arrangement.

Of cause Labor hate this thought, this despite them managing to extract unreasonable rates and conditions when the country was booming.

All i can say mate, is that you might as well get used to it because you cant change it.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 12 January 2017 12:37:49 PM
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Your wasting your time rehctub, these lefty bureaucratic types will never understand.

My exchange components business in Sydney employed 26 people, but from Christmas eve to Easter I struggled to have enough in the bank to pay myself as much as either of the apprentices, due to staff annual holidays, & public holidays in those first 4 months each year. I simply had to make enough in the rest of the year to cover that period. Tough luck if I couldn't.

On a Whitsundays resort island I was paid $130 a week, working 10 hours a day, 6 days & more a week, & loved it. I was not quite as generous as a handsome young German there. He once said, "I would pay $500 a week just to be allowed to work here. He had worked very hard & made a lot of money at Mount Isa mines.

On one occasion in the off season, with only 6 house guests, my lady on similar money, was waitress, kitchen hand, office manager, housemaid, boat hostess, with a little barmaiding as well. She started at 7.30, & finished at 9.30, with a 2.5 hour break in there somewhere. Of course we liked the owner, who was struggling.

The whole pay system is out of control. On one hand a huge number of workers can not possibly earn their cost, at award wages, for the employer. On the other hand, in most of the country no family could live on one average award wage alone.

In the 60s I could pay a mortgage, & keep my wife, daughter, & the Repco Brabham, on about the average wage. Today I would be able to afford only one of the 4, unless I robbed a bank. Of course I paid only 7.25% tax back then, so the answer is right there.

Get rid of 75% of the bureaucrats, & strip the system of most government paid entitlements. Then tell people to manage on their own, with the extra after tax money. Some may then actually embrace that dirty word, WORK.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 12 January 2017 2:32:00 PM
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Can someone clear something up for me here, from a much earlier post; my understanding, from when I was an employer, was if Christmas day fell on a Sunday the following Monday was a holiday in lieu. This means you were paid for the Monday, but not the Sunday, one day not two.

As an aside; my son, in Australia, just had three air conditioners installed. They had to use 'qualified' tradesmen to do the installations and electrical. The three units took one and a bit days to install, (mainly because of smokoes and lunch), and cost around two grand in labour charges.

I had two installed in Bali, it took the guy an hour each, and he charged 600,000 rupiah for the two, ($60). The electrician did quite a bit of other work, including wiring them in, and charged a bit less.
Posted by Billyd, Thursday, 12 January 2017 7:08:00 PM
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Butch; "Just on the $68K, i wouldnt get out of bed for that amount", that just about sums you up.being happy to see children and others illegally exploited in the work place, but wouldn't get out of bed for $68,000 p/a yourself. Let others be the judge. You must be a very good businessman, can't say the same for 'Breadline' Hassy.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 12 January 2017 8:48:50 PM
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Billyd, if my full time employees are rostered on to work Sundays, and Christmas day falls on sunday, then you have to pay them because you must pay a minimum 38hr each week unless you have a fortnightly roster. So essentially i paid two extra public holidays, even though i earned nothing myself as i was closed. Its a joke.

Paul, if you employ someone and pay them say $68K per year, and they dont make you $68K in profit, why would you employ them?

Like it or not, there are very few out there who actually set out to creat jobs, they just happen and the larger companies are doing their level best to replace staff with machines.

The trouble is too many employees think they are entitled to their job, as if it's their 'given right' to work. Well it's not, they are simply lucky to have someone willing to take risks with the bi product of that risk being jobs.
In the past twenty odd years we have seen a huge transition from full time work to casual, even contract work, all because people kept wanting more and more. Keep pushing and those jobs will vanish. Then what?
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 13 January 2017 2:35:35 PM
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