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The Forum > General Discussion > So what is Labors position on the Fair Work Commisions recomendation on penilty rates

So what is Labors position on the Fair Work Commisions recomendation on penilty rates

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About a week or so ago, Bill Shorten said he would accept the finding of the FWC on penalty rates, yet just tonight, Brendon Nelson all but ruled that out.

So which is it!
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 5 May 2016 6:35:48 PM
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Butch, since when does Brendon Nelson speak for the Labor Party.

Instead of attacking the paltry pay of low paid workers, lets get small business in hospitality and retail to start paying the billions in GST and other taxes they continually pocket, some say $7 billion p/a in GST alone. And lets get them paying the correct wage rates to low paid workers and stop the $10/hour cash in hand rip offs! The 7-Eleven and the $100 million owing to low paid workers is only the tip of the iceberg!
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 6 May 2016 6:16:33 AM
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The FWC is an independant body, unless there has been political interferance their decisions should stand.

You don't have to agree with the outcome. Market forces will dictate its viability.
Posted by 579, Friday, 6 May 2016 9:27:13 AM
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579 Quote "The FWC is an independant body" To me a person is not independant if they are given a position by a person with a vested interest in the outcomes of the decisions that person makes.

Like putting the fox in charge of the hen house
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 6 May 2016 1:35:24 PM
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Tony Abbott would know all about that wouldn't he. He hand picked all of his own assassins.

200 billion of extra debt in 2.5 years. Now that is not bad going . Some kind of a record at least.
Posted by 579, Friday, 6 May 2016 3:59:04 PM
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Paul, I might have got the name wrong, who cares, the point is where does bill stand on this. As for retail hospitality paying poor wages, try telling the consumer as they set the wage rates with the amount of gross profit they are willing to allow.

Wages like all expenses including out of control rents and power prices all
come 100% from profits.

Just remember that the next time you seek out a bargain, especially online as you will be helping to keep these pay rates low.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 6 May 2016 8:37:49 PM
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Butch, underpayment of minimum wages and entitlements to workers by many small/medium businesses is rife in Australia. particularly in non-unionised establishments where employers feel they can get away with it.
Just a couple of personal examples I can site. An employer who instead of paying penalty rates on a Saturday, o/t etc, would "shout" the workers pizza for lunch, which cost that multi-millionaire only a small fraction of what should have been paid. Or the fast food operator who had people working 12 hours on a weekend shift for $100 cash in hand, and penalty rates were, the worker could take home the shop leftovers at the end of their shift. These are extreme examples, but not uncommon.
Unless a person is wet behind the ears, you should know all those food outlets with a "Cash Only" sign do that for no other reason than to avoid paying the GST, and any other tax as well. One very wealthy small businessman boasted to me once he had never paid a cent in tax in 18 years of operating what was a very profitable business.
Many employers do, do the right thing, but there is a large body that don't. If this fair work mob comes out with an adverse finding for workers. I would expect a true Labor leader to condemn it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-22/thousands-of-australians-underpaid-denied-entitlements/6189802
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 7 May 2016 7:48:00 AM
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If this fair work mob comes out with an adverse finding for workers. I would expect a true Labor leader to condemn it.

And there in lies the fundamental problem with the labor/union alliance Paul, they always think they know what's best and despite having set up the FWC themselves, or have you conveniently forgotten that, ignore the findings if the outcomes don't suit them. How typical!

Another observation is your reference to the multi millionaire small business owner. Just what is you opinion on how many are multimillionaires Paul? It just might be that that's your problem.

As for underpayment of penalty rates, business owners know these rates are unaffordable Paul and, most workers in these industries understand that should they demand them, they will most likely not have a job. They understand this, but obviously you don't. They might not like it, but they understand.

Another observation is your take on businesses with no EFTPOS pocketing all the GST.

Do you think their landlord, or their insurance company, or what about their electricity provider, or even their gas supplier, do you think they accept cash in a brown paper bag Paul.

Once you use these services for a business, you generate an income and if you don't declare an industry standard set of numbers, you get audited. I guess you thought pocketing billions is just so so easy hey.

While I too have my suspicions about this practice, I also know from experience that EFTPOS fees are getting out of hand. Hundreds per week in fees. I'm about to pass them on but will offer a discount for cash, but not for the reasons you think.

Finally, I note you have not accepted my challenge Paul in answering whether or not you shop around for the best deal, because if you do, the savings come from somewhere, meaning you are assisting the very practice you despise. But hey, that's different isn't it Paul.

The old 'do as I say, not as I do' hey.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 7 May 2016 11:04:06 AM
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Bill has already said the decision on workers will stand.

With the pre emptive suggestion of sunday at saturday rates.

If that is the final decision the FWT will be accused of corruption.

They are supposed to be an independent body at a distance from govt;
Posted by 579, Saturday, 7 May 2016 3:13:24 PM
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579, if that is the "decision" of the so called fair umpire, in all fairness lets extend that to include, police officers, firemen, nurses, public transport workers etc etc!

Butch, It is LAW as to what must be paid, so you can't demand workers abide by the law and then have employers breaking it.

"have you (Paul) conveniently forgotten that, ignore the findings if the outcomes don't suit them.

As for underpayment of penalty rates, business owners know these rates are unaffordable Paul and, most workers in these industries understand that should they demand them, they will most likely not have a job. They understand this, but obviously you don't. They might not like it, but they understand.

How typical! Break the law when it suits. Pay and penalty rates are L.A.W. Not something you can simply ignore when it suits.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 7 May 2016 6:04:07 PM
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Yes Paul, while pay and penalty rates may well be L.A.W, employing is a voluntary act by an employer.

What the fair work commission, an independent body set up by the labor government is deciding, is whether or not some of these 'laws' are now counter productive, especially given that society demands a seven day society.

You see unlike the likes of you, the FWC seeks submissions from ALL interested parties, then makes a determination as to what is a FAIR AND BALANCED OUTCOME that best suits the needs of ALL PARTIES.

Like it or not, you are referring to some of the least skilled workers, and while I accept making a great coffee may well be a skill, I would hardly put it into the same category as a police officer, however, if you are talking of an office desk attendant in a police station, then that's a different story.

One of the biggest losers of these rates has been mums, as they were quite willingly doing their Sundays, which also gave the kids some 'Dad time' however as the cost of making a coffee on a Sunday became unaffordable, they were replaced, either by a family member, or a 16YO facebook addict.

So the commission will make its call, and we as business owners will have to accept it.

The point is though, will Labor accept it, and this is where Bill Shorten must confirm his parties standing on this extremely important issue as jobs are at stake, and let's face it, we are headed for a jobs crisis and need to save every one we can.

If you are interested Paul, I will give you the facts as to why Sunday rates are unaffordable. Not to be smart, just to explain the reason.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 8 May 2016 6:57:34 AM
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Butch The car industry is closing down because the govt does not want to subsidise it any more.

You are asking workers to subsidise a coffee shop. So you know what has to be done. Shut the thing down. overrepresentation is its own killer.
Posted by 579, Sunday, 8 May 2016 7:38:53 AM
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Good point 579, despite what Butch would have us believe small business is not on the brink, and about to fall into the abyss of
un-affordability, due to Sunday penalty rates. In fact small business and business in general does very well in Australia. Small business operators average higher incomes than their workers.
Just on the 'coffee shop' issue, in my case there are about 10 such establishments within 10 minutes walk, and about 100 within 10 minutes drive. There is no crises in the coffee shop industry!

Butch, you demand workers abide by the umpires decision, but at the small time claim it is alright for renegades in business to set their own pay rates and conditions, despite the law, also allowing for massive tax avoidance at the same time, how hypocritical is that?
As for police officers and firemen etc, who on a Sunday would earn 5 times the coffee kids rids pay rate being exempt, it certainly has nothing to do with profits as you claim it is all based on, they don't make one! But more to do with politics and the political ramifications if their pay rates were challenged.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 8 May 2016 8:30:20 AM
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579 and Paul
Here are the facts.

For each $10 spent, here is the breakdown (average)

Food cost $3, Labour $3.50, GST $1.10 gross profit $2.40. All running costs and owners profits come from here.

Double time Sunday the labour cost is $7, leaving a loss of $1.10. That's before running costs let alone a profit.

This is the reason so many pay cash in hand. It is also the reason why the FWC is likely to rule that Sundays be paid at 1.25 times the rate.

If they don't, coffee shops will not shut down, but the tax payer will continue to miss out on revenue.

BTW, very few these days will work for $10 cash in hand, unless of cause they are on welfare and wont work for anything other than cash in hand.

Let's hope the FWC announces its findings before the election.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 9 May 2016 8:00:47 AM
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Why before the election, Bill has said the decision will stand.

If there was not so many coffee shops around there would be more ten dollars to go around. Supply is outstripping demand and that is no reason to penalise workers.

Bill said the workers will determine weather the pay rates are fair or not.
Corruption will be looked at because it was requested by Abbott. So back pay could be on the cards.
Posted by 579, Monday, 9 May 2016 8:17:35 AM
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back pay for what?

Besides, if we do have oversupply, then shut some down, that wont change the rate, it will just cost jobs. What does this achieve.

You and your unionised mate Paul just can't bare to see two consenting adults coming to an arrangement that suits them. Big brother just has to stick their noses in.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 10 May 2016 5:18:29 AM
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It seems that workers in the Emergency, Police and Medical areas will be exempted from action on Penalty Rates so it must not be about a philosophical stance but a matter of taking punitive action against various and vulnerable workers.

The misleading notion that such cuts will result in more jobs is as likely that the "trickle down" effect actually works.

It's only about about increasing profits by cutting costs and labelling it productivity.

In the hospitality industry the cost of producing a cup of coffee is averaged over a whole week and not just on weekdays.
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 18 May 2016 8:38:49 AM
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Hi rache, you are absolutely correct. As 'Ten Dollar' Butch likes to point out it is all about gross profit and nothing much else. if that was the case the government would be out there arguing for a drop in pay for police etc as they are a direct financial loss. But that would be political poison as those people are well organised and have public sympathy unlike the coffee kid who has no community support or union to stop his over exploitation, just remember the 7-Eleven, workers robbed of $100 million.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 18 May 2016 9:43:23 AM
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