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The Forum > General Discussion > Can Malcolm Turnbull Defeat The Opposition Leader?

Can Malcolm Turnbull Defeat The Opposition Leader?

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Turnbull is likely to win any forthcoming election against Labors Bill Shorten, but can he defeat the real Opposition Leader within Tony Abbott. The latest development sees Abbott claiming he will be running his own “independent” election campaign in marginal seats, nothing to do with Turnbull. Abbott also claims the Turnbull Government is running on his own governments good works.
When Turnbull is returned, will Abbott claim victory, and then bide his time in the background, with a majority of reactionary conservatives MP’s on side, pulling the strings of Turnbull, until it become so untenable for Turnbull that Abbott can then make his much wanted comeback? Or is only a pipe dream of Abbott’s, and no comeback is possible.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 28 March 2016 5:39:19 AM
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Dear Paul,

You certainly ask tough questions.

Who can really predict what will happen in politics?

Many people thought that Mr Abbott was unelectable.

Many people did not take Donald Trump seriously.

Who could have predicted Malcolm Turnbull's ousting
of Tony Abbott or of Julie Bishop and Bronwyn
Bishop's support of Mr Turnbull?

I would not predict Mr Shorten's chances of winning
the election. But, who knows?

The election is a long way off yet and anything can
happen in the world of politics.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 28 March 2016 10:11:03 AM
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What obvious, loaded bumpf.

Why the two of you foolishly waste days of your lives on social media imagining that you can influence the outcome of a federal election would be beyond the ken of most people.

This is a discussion site and you would be far better off in your dotage endeavouring to make some sense of the world and how you might finally make some contribution before a stroke or death intervenes.

It is because there are easily led automatons who cannot do the thinking for themselves that Shorten feels comfortable not taking action to restore ownership of the Labor Party to its members, instead of being run by corrupt unions like the CFMEU.

Shorten now says he opposing the 'Abbott' government. Only complete dills go along with that spin.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 28 March 2016 10:37:16 AM
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So why, Beach, do you think the parties are so close in the polls?
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 28 March 2016 10:50:13 AM
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Dear Paul1405,

A poll out today shows that at the moment the Coalition will regain power, with a majority of 77 seats to 73 seats. I think Turnbull would like a lot more than a 4 seat advantage because it will encourage The Onion Eater to increase his attempts to wrestle the leadership of the coalition from Turnbull.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Monday, 28 March 2016 10:51:02 AM
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Aidan,

There is only one Poll.

How anyone here believes s/he can influence the result and waste precious life hours is beyond me. It is a time filling ritual for some here, apparently. It is not rational though.

The feckless, sensationalist media will as usual be working the 24hr 'news' cycle and setting all manner of hares loose - usually by slavishly publicising the fodder of spin masters - to increase their audience.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 28 March 2016 11:22:48 AM
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Abbott is only doing to Turnbull what Turnbull did to Abbott. Turnbull also did to Abbott what he (Turnbull) criticised Gillard for doing to Rudd. Now, Turnbull is following Labor's lesson on how to get kicked.

The election has nothing to do with 'can Turnbull beat the opposition leader'; Turnbull can only beat his opponent in Wentworth; he is not the all-powerful el presidente yet. The question is can the Coalition retain government, and that is entirely up to voters. Turnbull has lost the votes of many people like me, for instance. The completely unknown candidate standing in my electorate has already insulted us without any help from Turnbull. The polls,if you can believe them, are already neck and neck this early. Shorten is seen by many as a liability, but then, so is Turnbull seen that way by many others. Lets' wait for the election results.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 28 March 2016 11:48:50 AM
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Regardless of what the media, polls, or politicians say about the coming election, it is of course up to the voters.
However, there is nothing wrong with speculating on what the results might be.

Personally, I think Turnbull and Co. might just make it over the line. Shorten just doesn't have the personality to inspire a majority of voters, despite what policies labor comes up with. I don't believe it is always about policies at all.

As for Abbott, he has Buckley's chance of ever having the top job again, because not only did his own party vote him out, but the majority of the Australian voters rejoiced when he was thrown out! The positive vibes on the streets and in the media at the time were palpable to any intelligent person.

Abbott made too many individual mad choices while PM, with the Prince Phillip debacle the last straw for many people.
The voters won't forget how they cringed watching Abbott embarrassing them on the world stage....
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 28 March 2016 12:26:51 PM
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There's an interesting link by Terry Barnes that's
worth a read:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-13/barnes-can-one-shot-shorten-win-this-election/7085304

Barnes writes:

If you believe opinion polls, whenever the election is
called Shorten and the Labor Party face defeat...
It seems the only question is whether it will be an
honourable loss or catastrophic landslide at the hands
of Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.

Barnes goes on to tell us that Labor wants dissatisfied
voters to protest against Turnbull and the Coalition.
That Shorten is embarking on a national "whistle-stop,"
tour to campaign against raising the GST, cutting the
health budget and changing week-end penalty rates.

Then of course there's the question of Shorten's union
involvements, corruption, and other questions that the
Coalition can bring up to Shorten's detriment.

Barnes points out that a purely protest-based strategy
might have worked - perhaps - had unpopular Tony Abbott
remained Prime Minister. However Malcolm Turnbull
effectively usurped Shorten by becoming the solution to
voter dissatisfaction with Mr Abbott thereby with Mr
Turnbull's ascension the anger at the Coalition's
performance largely has dissipated leaving Bill Shorten
stranded unless he tries the other things that Barned
suggests in his link.

It's worth a read.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 28 March 2016 1:17:14 PM
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Beach, and how many of your prolific 5522 posts on this forum have influenced anybody/anything? Nil! How much of precious life hours have you wasted in those 5522 posts, and how many more will you add before a stroke or death might intervenes. you certainly have a way with words.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 28 March 2016 3:04:11 PM
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Paul1405,

You shouldn't judge others by your own automaton behaviour, supporting the Greens come what may and whatever that protest party says.

It is easier to always go with what the Party tells you and you always have a readymade excuse for personal failure, but what sort of an existence is that?

What the flakey Greens Trots, the NSW Watermelon Greens, should be doing at minimum is dumping that awful red-rag leftover from the Cold War, Lee Rhiannon(Brown) and useful idiots like the trivial Shoebridge and fully supporting Richard Di Natale.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 28 March 2016 4:18:39 PM
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Posted by Aidan. "So why, Beach, do you think the parties are so close in the polls?"

Because Aidan, people are not taking any where near as long to wake up to the fact that Turnbull is nothing but an empty bag of hot air, as they did with Rudd. About the only thing we have to thank Rudd for is his training in recognising a useless powder puff.

Don't forget Suse, that governments lose elections, not oppositions win them, or so the commentators say. Turnbull has already lost so many previously rusted on voters, he is well on his way. It could easily say on his tombstone, an unelected PM for a few months.

But to answer the question. Yes Turnbull COULD win an election, but more importantly will he.

Well he will have a long time of saying what he thinks electors want to hear. If he slips up just once & tells people what he thinks & believes, he's gone for all money. So the real question, can he convincingly lie for 3 months? Doubt it. He will fool some, but can he fool enough.

Foxy, kid you've got to get out more. Around this previously very safe Liberal electorate, Turnbull is less popular than Abbott ever was. In fact, he is even less popular than Gillard ever was, & that is really saying something.

Turnbull is the new dirty word we shout when we accidently hit our thumb with a hammer.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 28 March 2016 5:48:55 PM
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Dear Hassie,

I feel that Mr Shorten has very little chance of
defeating Malcolm Turnbull. He just doesn't come
across as a strong leader.

But I could be wrong of course.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 28 March 2016 5:57:27 PM
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Hasbeen "Foxy, kid you've got to get out more. Around this previously very safe Liberal electorate, Turnbull is less popular than Abbott ever was. In fact, he is even less popular than Gillard ever was, & that is really saying something. "

Really? Are you just saying how you and some like-minded old friends feel Hasbeen, or have you done an actual poll in your 'very safe Liberal electorate'?
I tend to believe actual official polls in these matters and not listen to people still crying over Abbott's demise.

Turnbull remains the preferred leader in the polls at present, leaving Shorten some way behind....and Abbott isn't even on the horizen. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-22/newspoll-support-for-turnbull-government-drops/7188518
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 28 March 2016 6:46:57 PM
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Hasbeen, I'm curious as to which previously very safe Liberal seat Turnbull's so unpopular in now. Is it one where the X-Men are running?
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 28 March 2016 7:25:25 PM
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As long as Turnbull keeps to Abbotts policies he will survive. The abc will ensure that their man is elected. If he invites the illegal and terrorist like Rudd did or again tries to bring in an idiotic tax the conservatives will rebel. He will also need to keep Tony's stand on 'gay' marriage. How plastic can a person be. He has not had one original idea. Personally I see the conservatives splitting from the regressives. Meanwhile our country goes down the toilet with debt. It matters little if Shorten or Turnbull set future generations up with misery. They are 2peas in a pod.
Posted by runner, Monday, 28 March 2016 7:36:08 PM
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we are forgetting that Abbott did stop the boats, he did axe the carbon tax and he did scrap the mining tax. There is a fair chance voters will realise Abbott was a doer and there is also a better chance, that if given another go, he would not make any more so called 'captains picks'.

What ever happens Turnbul has shown he is just another Rudd look a like, a real dud!

As for labor, few will ever forget the mess they created, at least not this soon.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 28 March 2016 8:08:02 PM
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OTB, you pontificate on all manner of topics on this forum, your 5000 plus postings attest to that fact. Presenting yourself as the all knowing, all seeing political guru. However the vast majority of your prognostications only go to show your abnormal fixation with The Greens. It is remarkable that, despite having no knowledge, or no understanding of the party, its leadership or grass roots membership, you feel justified in slamming The Greens at every opportunity, all from your point of ignorance.
In NSW both Lee Rhiannon and David Shoebridge enjoy a very high level of popular support, as does Richard Di Natale federally, levels of party support that Turnbull, Abbott and Shorten would be envious of I'm sure. As for policy i let my views be known when called for, and its not always in agreement with party policy. Can I ask do you and Jim ever disagree?

It is my opinion, given a narrow Turnbull victory at the next general election Abbott would feel personally justified in seeking reinstatement to the top job. Abbott does not see his political career as over, and that there is nothing more for him than to cool his heels on the back benches until he retires some time in the future. No way, Abbott still sees himself as leadership material, and as the best man for PM. Incidentally Turnbull has a better relationship with Shorten than he does with Abbott, they at least talk sociably when they bump into each other, Turnbull and Abbott don't even bid each other the time of day.there are several people in the government who Abbott simply wont talk to.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 28 March 2016 8:29:32 PM
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Paul1405,

There are as many factions in the Greens as there are members and then some.

Bob Brown had his problems with Lee Rhiannon and the Trots 'Watermelon' Greens faction in NSW. The 'Watermelon' faction remains an embarrassment and a thorn in the side of Richard Di Natale.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 28 March 2016 8:47:20 PM
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Beach, I see ignorance is still no barrier for you posting ill-informed comment. Greens this, Greens that, when in fact you probably know as much about The Greens as I know about astrophysics, which is zilch!

The lament of the forums heartbroken rabid right, where is the messiah, he hast gone, please come back Tone, we need you, the world needs you! The bloke was such a embarrassment even his own party dumped him before the people could deliver the coup de grace on poor Tony.

But, and its a big but, for the Tony loving forum members, there is still hope that your pin-up boy could indeed make a return to the top job sometime after the election. The rabid right faction of the Liberal Party spent years wrestling control of the party from the small l moderates, how do you think Tony got the top job in the first place, they knew he was a clown, but he was one of them, their clown.
The majority of Liberal members are still supporters of Abbott's conservative style of politics, as are nearly all the National Party members. They only supported Turnbull because they could see the writing on the wall, and self preservation kicked in. The conservative controlling faction have made it clear to Turnbull and his minority faction, that they are not going to support the Turnbull political agenda, he can remain PM as long as he doesn't try and implement his reform policies, particularly on social justice issues. The only way Turnbull can hold sway is if he has a resounding victory at the forthcoming election, and that would silence his critics within, a most unlikely event.
Abbott only has to sit and wait for a narrow Turnbull win and then continue to destabilise and do a Rudd, make a comeback. However I think Morrison might have a better chance than Abbott of being the conservatives next anointed one.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 6:31:20 AM
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otb,

Lol!....who's calling his fellow posters "automatons"

This is the poster who serially presses his auto-blather button and comes out with a spiel which goes something like this:

"feminists, progessives, Marxists, Trotskyite, femi-nazi, leftist, Fabianism, International socialism, Emily's List, Grrls, womyn...etc"

It's a sight to behold when "onthebeach" goes automaton - just like watching an old movie that you've seen oodles of times - and you know which piece of dialogue is coming up next.

Snort!
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 8:00:11 AM
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But I have to say, Tony Abbott is proving almost as entertaining as a "backbencher" as he was as PM.

He's by far Labor's greatest asset in the coming campaign.

A true unstable pretender, nary a day goes by when he's not publicly undermining his leader in some way...you can almost set your watch to it these days

What a blast!

His latest stunt in announcing his own faux Prime Ministerial election tour (because his own party declined him one of theirs) is pure vaudeville.

Popcorn....
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 8:08:15 AM
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Ross Gittins is the Sydney Morning Herald's
economics editor. He writes:

"We wouldn't be onto our fifth PM in 5 years if
federal politics wasn't dominated by moral pygmies.
People lacking in courage who see tactics but not
strategy. Whose only vision is of their own
survival in their seat and their progression up the
Party pecking order."

That's a rather depressing thought.

Gittins reminds us that -

"What the pygmies don't see is that the public can smell
politicians and parties who put their careers ahead of
serving the nation. What few people in Canberra remember
is that Bob Hawke and Paul Keating achieved greatness by
making changes they believed the nation needed but their
own supporters hated."

Gittins warns that - " Malcolm Turnbull will never be great
if he takes his political advice from pygmies."

Let us hope that Turbull is smarter then that.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 10:13:29 AM
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cont'd ...

Did anyone watch "Q and A." last night?
(Monday, 28 March 2016).

It was an interesting discussion, particularly
the moments dealing with innovation.
The Hon. Wyatt Roy MP - Assistant Minister for
Innovation performed very well.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 10:25:56 AM
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Lol Foxy, I love the name 'moral pygmies'!

I could certainly call most politicians by that name, but would imagine Runner and his groupies taking that name and running with it by suggesting it applies to all those that don't love Abbott or his brand of holy politics.

Turnbull needs to grow a pair and stand up for what he believes in, and not carry on with the far-right madness that Abbott and his apostles excelled in. If he does tow the conservative line then he doesn't deserve the top job.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 10:29:55 AM
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Dear Suse,

As I wrote in my previous post - lets hope that
Turnbull is smarter then that.
I certainly don't want Bill Shorten in the top
job.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 10:33:38 AM
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Anybody could beat Bill Short-one
Posted by chrisgaff1000, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 11:38:09 AM
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"It was an interesting discussion, particularly
the moments dealing with innovation.
The Hon. Wyatt Roy MP - Assistant Minister for
Innovation performed very well."

Gawd..."Assistant Minister for Innovation"...what sort of a faux title is that?

It's a title that represents a slogan - that's what it is.

And Roy is a tedious right-wing twerp who would more represent the "innovation" so far exemplified by this govt if he was to sit in the corner at Parliament House and build something out of LEGO.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 29 March 2016 6:54:29 PM
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Hi Poirot the "Assistant Minister for Innovation" I'll have you know performs the very important function of assisting the Minister for Lame Ducks'. Without innovation, which incidentally has been one of the finest, if not the most outstanding achievement of the Turnbull Government thus far, not actually innovation itself, but the principle of introducing innovation, you know what I mean. Just the other day Malcolm knocked up his very own coal fired, home made, dish washer for Lucy to use at 'The Lodge'. When she exclaimed "Why do I have to fire it up with coal, Malcolm?" Malcolm retorted "Barnaby insisted!", "and we have to keep Barney happy." "Besides its INNOVATION!" Lucy came back with "Hummmm...like your uranium powered lawnmower!"
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 4:30:52 AM
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Indeed, Paul,

I believe the alternative title to Wyatt Roy's role is:

"Assistant Minister for Pie-In-The-Sky Vacuous Positions Invented and Bestowed as Payment for Support During the Coup"

But, of course, that was way too long - so "Assistant Minister for Innovation" it became.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 7:45:21 AM
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What impressed me about Mr Roy was his deep
optimism he had for Australia's future as a global
leader in innovation. And, he warned
against becoming a clone of San Francisco's
Silicon Valley.

An article in The Sydney Morning Herald gave
the following quote of Mr Roy's:

"We have to create something that is uniquely
Australian," he said, arguing our lifestyle
would attract the "best and brightest," to our
shores.

The front bencher also spoke of the need for a
"cultural change."

"We need to embrace more risk, we need to accept failure,
we need to celebrate success," he said.

Mr Roy also told the "Q and A," audience (quoting from the
the Sydney Morning Herald article) that the real success
of the government's role in supporting innovation would
be how well it generated private sector involvement.
Using an Old El Paso TV commercial - in which a young
girl decides her family can eat both soft and hard tacos.
Mr Roy argued the government could foster both university
and private sector innovation projects.

"Why can't we have both?" he said.

Impressive young Minister!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 11:15:06 AM
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Foxy,

I've got to rush...however...

The "innovation" ..."#ideasboom" neds to be more than an optimistic slogan.

So far, that's all this govt has provided.

What's innovative about slashing funding to the CSIRO?

What's innovative about Turnbull's crappy NBN, now double the cost, outdated and aiding our slump in net speeds from 30th worldwide to 60th?

What's innovative about slashing funding for education to the states?

What's innovative in encouraging private training providers and trashing TAFE?...(noting that a private training company goes bust lately at the rate of about one a week)

Give me a concrete example of an area where the govt has sought to be innovative and has actually had an impact - and I mean a positive one for the community.

I believe the AFP have questioned Roy on his innovative involvement in the Peter Slipper affair...but that doesn't count.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 11:30:27 AM
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Reward success, now there's a laugh.

We currently reward success with the likes of ridiculous workcover premiums and payroll tax. Yep, if that's a reward i'd hate to see their interpretation of punishment for being successful and creating jobs.

What a joke those calling for innovation are. They forget doing business here in Oz is handicapped.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 11:53:19 AM
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Rewarding for success is not the government's role; success brings its own rewards. What the government should be doing is making it easier to succeed.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 12:47:42 PM
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Dear Poirot,

Here is a link that explains the government's
National Innovation and Science Agenda:

http://www.innovation.gov.au

It's worth a read.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 1:17:01 PM
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Thanks, Foxy...I have seen it before, and I'm not about to re-read the govt's vacuous waffle.

How's this for innovation?

Back to a taxing system of the 1940s!

Poor old Mal is off in desperation having a Prince Phil moment - talking of handing income taxing powers to the states. I wonder if he told ScoMo?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-30/verrender-turnbull's-new-tax-pitch-doesn't-fix-the-real-issue/7284622

"If these changes are adopted, Australia will shift towards an American style system, where states tax individuals at different rates. It's hardly a recipe for reducing red tape. It has the potential to put smaller states such as South Australia and Tasmania at a huge disadvantage. And then there is the obvious question: Are America's health care and education systems superior to ours?"

Still, it's the 7th item on the IPA's wishlist, so it's not surprising to see it slathered up before the budget.

More rubbish from the LNP.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 4:35:36 PM
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Innovation!

"Experts stunned by Turnbull's 'retrograde' tax plan"

"Tax experts have slammed Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull's proposal to allow states to levy income tax as a way of funding state services, taking the tax system back to the 1940s.

CPA Australia boss Alex Malley was stunned by the proposal, saying it will create enormous dysfunction in Australia.

He said it will make people think more about their state rather the country as a whole, like in the US and Canada, make switching between states more likely, while doing nothing to move the nation forward.

"We are struggling to find how this is a sustainable model for the future," he told AAP on Wednesday"

"Mr Turnbull confirmed he has put forward the idea to premiers and first ministers that would see the federal government reduce its income tax by an agreed percentage and allow state governments to levy an income tax equal to that amount.

The Tax Institute described it as a "retrograde and flawed" concept.

The institute's president Arthur Athanasiou said he has been continually urging governments to shift away from income and inefficient taxes for the bulk of revenues.

"Whilst the proposal may present some theoretical advantage, government time and resources would be far better spent on reforming the present tax system," he said in statement."

"Mr Turnbull said there would be no increase in income tax from a taxpayers' point of view, but Mr Malley disagrees, saying every state has a different set of circumstances, cost structures and problems.

"It will create more red tape, more taxes, everything this government says it doesn't stand for," Mr Malley said.

Constitutional expert George Williams said the states would be able to impose their own differential tax rates, something the constitution does not allow the commonwealth to dictate.

There would be no need for a collective agreement - meaning individual states could go it alone.

Market Economics managing director Stephen Koukoulas said it will allow the states to cover the costs of heavily in-demand services and make them more responsible for managing their own books."

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/03/30/experts-stunned-turnbulls-retrograde-tax-plan
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 4:45:41 PM
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Will this mean filling out two income tax returns each year: one for the Australian Taxation Office and another for the State Revenue Office?

I have trouble filling out one let alone worry about doing two.

I think Turnbull came up with his two tax system only because The Onion Eater has already said it won't work and he will now be able to tell people that he is not following The Onion Eater's ideas.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 4:53:01 PM
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Come on, Foxy.

Why aren't you out here commenting on the Turnbull govt's latest brain explosion?

Out waddles Mr Turnbull and delivers an off-the-cuff expression of interest in delivering income taxing back to the states - drops it like a cow pat in the grass - and leaves economic experts shaking their heads.

"Here we go again. The latest "big idea" from the federal government will now dominate national political conversation for a few days. The concept of states raising their own income taxes may seem useful as a temporary distraction for the public and the premiers.

But the proposal will progress little beyond that. Nor does it deserve to – certainly not in the haphazard way in which it has been presented by the Prime Minister and the Treasurer.

It is not just the Tax Institute calling this "a retrograde and flawed concept" that would add to red tape and be likely to increase the tax burden on already stressed taxpayers.

The business community, in what is developing into a regular pattern, has been completely side-swiped by Turnbull's unexpected decision to present this option to state leaders this week. The Prime Minister enthusiastically describes it as the most fundamental reform to the Federation in generations.

"Business will describe it very differently – as yet another layer of complexity and costs for them. Even for small businesses not operating across state borders, the notion of dealing with a new state income tax will hardly sound reassuring."

"But Labor is already revelling in immediate attacks on what it calls an extraordinary and backward-looking announcement (given 1942 was when the states ceded their ability to raise income tax) that will inevitably result in double taxation and higher taxes."

http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnists/malcolm-turnbulls-big-tax-idea-destined-for-the-bottom-drawer-20160330-gnucm0#ixzz44NqR9x00

No thought.

Dropped from on high.

Scott Morrison probably not even in the loop.

More hopelessness and knee jerk policy from an incompetent govt.

Innovative - NOT!
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 9:16:07 PM
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Milk Em' Malcolm (new title) is starting to look desperate, as the straight jacket the hard right faction have him in is being tightened even further. First it was a proposed 50% plus increase in the GST, now its double income tax, an idea the fraudulent Tax Em' Tony regime was not willing to countenance, well not publicly. Why not go the whole hog and have local government also impose their own income tax as well! The Bugsy Baird government here in NSW would have a field day with that one, they have been wasting billions of taxpayer dollars on harebrained schemes such as 'Westconnex' ever since they fraudulently came to power in 2011. What will be the next oddball idea Turnball throws out to the electorate, a tax on spats and straw hats, why not, he is showing himself to be a 1920's regressive! Judging by what Turnball proposed so far Tony Baloney's knighthood for Prince Dill was not such a bad idea after all.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 31 March 2016 6:51:42 AM
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Foxy,

Abbott ripped $120 million out of science on the basis that it was "waste".

Turnbull restored $100 million of it, rebadged it as "innovation" and wants to claim some sort of credit for it.

Likewise, Abbott took money away from womens' shelters and other support services but Turnbull threw back a few crumbs and called it something else.

Now Turnbull's panicked about increasing the GST but trying to do the same thing another way.

There's no "innovation" here beyond the use of spin.

It's a bit like saying I'm a good person because I don't beat my wife as much as I used to.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 31 March 2016 8:52:16 AM
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Here's a good one...

"Malcolm Turnbull's education revolution: end federal support for public schools"

"The federal government would stop funding public schools while continuing to support private schools under a dramatic change to the nation's education system outlined by Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/malcolm-turnbulls-education-revolution-end-federal-support-for-public-schools-20160330-gnuo4l.html#ixzz44Qik335O

Scott Morrison said today that Turnbull didn't necessarily confirm the tax proposal was on....

Make of that what you will - after all, Scottie is merely the federal Treasurer - why would the PM tell him of the biggest tax change since WWII before announcing it at a brief presser!
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 31 March 2016 9:04:16 AM
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Obviously I don't know what I'm talking about.

And I'm impressed by the current government
without any deep analysis simply because I
prefer it to the previous one we had or to
Mr Shorten and his team. I'm still hoping that
somehow Mr Turnbull will pull a rabbit out of
the hat.

For now, I'll go and stand in the naughty corner
and keep my mouth shut.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 March 2016 9:31:18 AM
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Foxy,

That's a puerile attitude.

This is a discussion forum.

You put up various pieces of propaganda from the govt, none with any particular substance...and topped it off with your opinion on Wyatt Roy and his narrative on "innovation".

You were then provided with a few posts containing examples of this govt's latest retrograde thought bubble - one that apparently seems delivered without much consultation (outside Turnbull's secret court) - and certainly without any wide-ranging economic modelling.

All Turnbull's bright ideas are tossed out as he drives by. Usually they are then dispensed with in quick time as they don't usually stand more than an hour's perusal without coming apart at the seams...at which point, Magnificent Mal whips them "off the table".

If you are keen to show us how innovative is the Turnbull govt - then show us..and I mean by something more fulsome than hoping Shorten doesn't get in or lamenting the previous govt.
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 31 March 2016 9:57:44 AM
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Hi Foxy

Milk Em' Malcolm doesn't pull rabbits out of his hat. He's more likely to pull a tax out of his hat, its even more likely he pulls those taxes of his, out of some body orifice! You know what I mean.

Absolutely Poirot, how pathetic for a Prime Minister to announce what would be the biggest tax ever on Australians, a state income tax on top of federal income tax without any treasury consultation or modeling. Make no mistake as soon as the states obtained the right to levy income tax they would hike it at will.
What will Turnball announce next, Australia is going to get a fleet of 50 new battleships without consulting the Minister for the Navy.

All I can say to the rabid right posters on the forum is your party sure can pick em' LOL.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 31 March 2016 11:04:43 AM
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fancy agreeing with the 2P's. This is Rudd on steroids.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 31 March 2016 11:14:31 AM
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Dear Poirot,

I am well aware that this is a discussion forum
and that is precisely what I was trying to do -
I accepted what you were saying however I did try
to present my opinion. I tried to explain where I was coming
from even providing a link when you asked for
examples of what innovations the current government
had provided. Giving you - what their plans for the
future were. You told me that you were not prepared
to read that "waffle." What does that say about your own
attitude if you consider mine "puerile?"
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 March 2016 12:19:17 PM
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Foxy,

I remarked that I had already seen it - and that I wasn't prepared to read it again.

What that says about my "attitude" is that one perusal of wistful and empty govt rhetoric is enough for me.

I have presented you with myriad examples of this govt doing the polar opposite of "innovation" - and I was attempting to elicit a response from you in the form of something a tad more substantial than wet-behind-the-ears Roy blathering about what it means to him....and your fervent hope (without any deep analysis) that Mal can magic a rabbit out of his top hat.

You responded by telling me you were going to go and stand in a corner and keep your mouth shut.
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 31 March 2016 4:38:09 PM
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Dear Poirot,

That's because I obviously didn't know what I
was talking about - which is what I admitted
after having read your posts that were so
much more substantial. ;-)
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 31 March 2016 5:52:50 PM
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Foxy,

You posted a few posts about the govt's optimistic take on its slogan du jour - and I posted a few articles which expose this govt's complete dearth of anything approaching innovation.

The thing is that this is an adult forum. Your last reply to me was dripping with sarcasm, and reminded me of the sort of debates I might have had in the quadrangle of my high school circa 1975.

Which really makes the whole exercise somewhat pointless....
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 31 March 2016 7:33:11 PM
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What I find so hard to understand is how many people could not see through Rudd, Turnbull & Obama & Blair if we go off shore.

Our two are so obviously empty bags of hot air, without a practical bone in their bodies. Our US & UK examples are no better. Why do people fall for these slick talking wind bags? Granted they are reasonably decorative, but are our ladies so easily lured by a pretty face? For most men it is a bit of a turn off.

Hell with Turnbull we even had plenty of forewarning, with the egotistical clowns behaviour with the republican convention.

Granted the thought of Shorten & even worse Plibersek, is a bit frightening, but still preferable to actually electing this clown. Can you imagine how crazy he will be, if actually elected to the job?

Can the western world survive this apparent naivety of today's electors? I doubt it, but then does it deserve to survive? I do feel sorry for the mess we are bequeathing to our grand kids.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 31 March 2016 8:42:07 PM
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Now Foxy and Poirot what is called for is a bit of 'Solidarity' on this. We need you two to post your usual reasoned intelligent comments on this topic as you do on every other forum discussion thread. Both of you, along with a couple others are the best commentators here. On this one like every other discussion the right wing ratties, aka, the 'Usual Suspects' are on the ropes.

Here's something, I was in Tasmania recently and the state is facing a terrible power and water crises. The State Liberal Government led by Wally Hodgeman is in a total quandary as what they should do, they have absolutely no idea. If the dissatisfaction flows over to the federal sphere Jacqui Lambie could retain her seat easily.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-12/more-delays-in-basslink-repair-tasmanian-premier-confirms/7162382
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 31 March 2016 10:00:12 PM
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'What I find so hard to understand is how many people could not see through Rudd, Turnbull & Obama & Blair if we go off shore.'

Yeah Hasbeen the uni's and media have certainly dumbed down the average voter by a long way. Fancy going from Howard to Rudd and then Gillard. We certainly ain't the smart country.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 31 March 2016 10:21:49 PM
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The original question for this discussion was "Can Malcolm Turnbull Defeat The Opposition Leader?"
Answer : Yes he will.

Why?
Because despite Mal's weak policies, poor relationship with his treasurer (and other far-right apostles), and his obviously fading popularity, he is still the front runner for the coming election in all the polls.
And despite all these shortcomings, Mal is still favored as leader over Abbott by the majority of his own party.

So, what does that say about Willie Shorten and his crowd then?
Not much...
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 1 April 2016 1:36:36 AM
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Hi Suse, it was a loaded question, the "Opposition Leader" I was referring to was not Willie Shorten more like a Mad Monk than a little Willie.
Talking to a couple of generally moderate Liberal swinging voters yesterday. they are incensed with Turnball's State Income Tax proposal. Nothing like hitting the voters in their hip-pocket nerve in an election year, and then asking them to vote for you. Labor should be playing that one for all it's worth, and its worth plenty.

The hard right wingers like Runner, Hasbeen, Beach etc although they will bitch long and hard about Turnball, seeing him as a quasi red, come election day their vote will blow back into the Liberal camp. They could never bring themselves to vote Labor, that would be voting for the class enemy, Joe Stalin himself, shock horror. To make themselves feel good they might vote for some religious loony or independent but they will always preference the Liberal over the Labor bloke, even if its three and four or five and six. No matter what, the Liberal ends up with their vote.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 1 April 2016 4:24:19 AM
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Suse,

"So, what does that say about Willie Shorten and his crowd then?
Not much.."

Mal is still riding on his personal popularity. That's the idea people had of him "before" we experienced him as PM.

He's has to be the most vacuous person to have ever held the top job. There is no indication that his thought bubbles are even properly thought out before he delivers them.

And tell us what precisely are Shorten's problems? All I ever read here are platitudes of the ilk of "At least it's not Shorten."

What does that mean?

It means nothing.

I tend to perceive the machinations of govt in a classic sense...you know, the nuts and bolts of day to day operation.

You and Foxy seem to look upon it in a romantic sense which is the overview, the general wafty feeling it gives you.

Tell me what's wrong with Shorten...other than he doesn't come up with a ridiculous policy every second day, only to squash it a short time later after it's been laughed off the table - a la Turnbull.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 9:06:19 AM
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Dear Poirot,

It appears that I've offended you.
That was not my intention.

I was trying a bit of humour rather than sarcasm
in my previous post.

I was impressed by Wyatt Roy on "Q and A," on Monday
evening. What he stated made a lot of sense and I
thought he should be encouraged as a young passionate
Minister full of enthusiasm and ideas to be given a
chance.

As for Malcolm Turnbull - he also should be given a
chance to show us what sort of policies he has on
offer. With him we need to wait and see. It's
too early to make judgements on him - in my opinion.

To me - Mr Shorten does not come across as a strong leader,
risk taker, with a vision for this country. But again, I could be wrong.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 April 2016 9:31:24 AM
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Foxy,

I wasn't so much offended as bemused.

"As for Malcolm Turnbull - he also should be given a
chance to show us what sort of policies he has on
offer...."

We had this discussion in mid-February....you were saying exactly the same thing then.

Here's a few of your comments from that thread:

"It's still early days for Malcolm Turnbull.
He can't rock the boat to much if he wants
the appease the Party - not yet.
But I'm sure that
in due course he will put in his plans prior
to the election - and will not give in,
perhaps just a bit"

"However, He can't make many sudden changes too soon
because he can't afford to alienate his own party. However,
once he wins the next election - it will be a
different story. We should wait until after the
next election to judge him."

"It is early days though - and I am sure that
Turnbull will paint a clearer picture prior
to the next election. If he doesn't he may
as well leave now."

"As far as I'm concerned - it's too earlier
yet to judge Malcolm Turnbull. He does have
to contend with the right-wing of the Party
while himself being accused a Leftie by the
Party."

"I recall how happy I was when
the Liberal Party came to its senses and elected
Mr Turnbull as its Leader. Hopefully the man will
not disappoint.
But we'll have to wait and see."

"I came across the following comment from a
reader on the web that I think summed things
up rather well:

"I think it's unrealistic for Mr Turnbull to
make any big announcements on policy shifts.
The dead wood has to be removed first.
We should have a clearer idea of his "leadership
style" further this year."

It's still early days - and he did say in his speeches
that he would be a consultative PM."

We've since had weeks of Turnbull rushing out with inane policy suggestions, scare mongering, back-flipping - and still you say "Let's give the guy a chance".
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 10:20:26 AM
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I'll just add that Turnbull the "consultative" PM doesn't even appear to "consult" his Treasurer prior to his thought-bubble economic announcements.

What a joke!
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 10:24:26 AM
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Poirot, there is nothing 'wafty' about what Foxy or myself have said, it is just our opinions...on an opinion forum. We are not honor bound to explain our views to your satisfaction or anyone else's.

You and Beach are very similar like that.
Your new aggressive style does you no favours.

As for Shorten, I dislike his 'union leader' style and background. He sounds like he should be on a platform addressing a building site.
We don't need a militant PM, we need someone who is a strong, well spoken leader who can represent Australia on the world stage in an intelligent manner. Shorten will never be that person.

I am not saying Turnbull is that sort of leader yet, but he runs rings around Willie already. I don't really care whether you like that opinion or not, but there it is.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 1 April 2016 10:30:14 AM
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Suse,

"Poirot, there is nothing 'wafty' about what Foxy or myself have said, it is just our opinions...on an opinion forum. We are not honor bound to explain our views to your satisfaction or anyone else's.'

I didn't say your opinions were "wafty"

I said:

"You and Foxy seem to look upon it in a romantic sense which is the overview, the general wafty feeling it gives you."

"You and Beach are very similar like that.
Your new aggressive style does you no favours."

Thanks, Suse...

Now it's "aggressive" to attempt to eleicit some substantial critique from fellow posters...instead of a nebulous overview of what your believe Turnbull represents.

My point is that Turnbull has revealed himself as the quintessential "Hollow Man" - the eloquent waffler who hasn't a clue what policy he should be delivering, is stumbling about in the dark and is not "strong".

"I am not saying Turnbull is that sort of leader yet, but he runs rings around Willie already. I don't really care whether you like that opinion or not, but there it is."

How about explaining to us "why" you believeTurnbull runs rings around Shorten?

That's really all I've been trying to get at on this and other threads....rather than vacant pronouncements.

Whether "I like" your opinions has nothing to do with good debate.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 11:27:37 AM
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Paul you greens will obviously vote for the clan, no matter how ridiculous their policies, but you can't transfer your tribalism to thinking people.

In Turnbull we have a clone of the last grinning bag of hot air Rudd. The similarities are so complete I sometimes wish the dill would pull off the rubber mask, & show those who still believe he is different.

I can assure you, that if Turnbull still leads the libs come election day, they will go bottom on my ballot, well apart from the greens that is. No point in being stupid is there. I am one of many around here.

I do wonder how many will revert as you suggest, but it probably doesn't matter. As I suggested earlier, 3 months is far too long for Turnbull or stand serious scrutiny. Already we see his ridiculous idea of throwing tax at the states. Probably a reasonable idea if thought through, but as an election thought bubble, ridiculous.

By election day, it could be only Turnbull his wife, & perhaps Foxy being fair, left to vote for him, Oh & perhaps some who watch soaps. Turnbull looks like a character escaped from some lousy TV soap, more as each day passes.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 1 April 2016 2:14:10 PM
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Dear Hassie,

So I take it that you approved of keeping the
Knights and Dames titles (Turnbull scrapped them).
And you disapprove of Turnbull's front-bench
reshuffle which today has more women, including
the first woman as Minister of Defense. You
probably disapprove his $1 billion innovation
package as well (giving certainty to CSIRO) and
his disapproval of deregulating university fees,
and much more changes still to come including
investing in health, education, and so forth.
Ah well. it's your choice.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 April 2016 2:35:09 PM
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Foxy,

Donging knights and dames on the head is a minor act by Turnbull. It was so ridiculous and definitely a Captain's call by Abbott that it was never going to last. Okay, good, Mal did that...but let's not turn somersaults as if it will have some lasting legacy regarding good govt.

"Innovation package"....giving certainty to the CSIRO!

You have certainly had your head turned by Mal.

"Almost 3000 scientists from nearly 60 nations have appealed to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and other Australian leaders to halt the CSIRO's plans to halve the number of researchers working on climate monitoring and modelling.
In a letter that was also sent to the CSIRO's board and chief executive Larry Marshall, the 2900 researchers said the decision to cut 100 full-time positions out of about 140 staff from two units of the Oceans and Atmospheric division "alarmed the global research community".

The decision to decimate a vibrant and world-leading research program shows a lack of insight, and a misunderstanding of the importance of the depth and significance of Australian contributions to global and regional climate research," the letter said."

"The academy a week ago warned that the proposed job losses would cut deeply into programs that had already lost $20 million in the 2014-15 budget."

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/csiro-climate-cuts-devastating-almost-3000-scientists-tell-malcolm-turnbull-20160211-gms3ea.html#ixzz44YFFLCI9

Education....how innovative to suggest to cease federally funding state education - but to keep on federally funding private education. That's what Mal has in mind.

Turnbull has already taken the chopper to certain pathology services rebates...affecting women in particular (but let's remember there's more women in his cabinet, so that makes up for it, eh?)

You'd be familiar with the petitions in pathology labs - all over the country at the moment fighting these cuts...that was Marvellous Mal's handy work.

I repudiated the Abbott govt's delivery of the IPA's agenda.

I also repudiate the Turnbull govt's delivery of the IPA agenda.

BTW....passing back income tax to the states is No. 7 on the IPA's wishlist.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 4:08:40 PM
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Dear Poirot,

Yes I have had my head turned by Malcolm Turnbull.
I admit that. I like the man.

All I ask is give him a chance to show us what he
can (or can't) do after the election.

I have every confidence that he will surprise us once
he comes into his own. For now he
has to consult with the Cabinet if he wants to survive
as their Party leader. I believe that the decisions which
are being made currently are the Cabinet's. And yet he is
still making progressive changes as he goes along.

We really don't want a repeat of what happened with Gillard
and Rudd before the last election. Internationally it was
a disaster. Lately, the PM's position is a revolving door
and we are tired of explaining Australian politics to
our overseas friends. We need stability in government which
hasn't been the case in the past few years.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 1 April 2016 5:33:52 PM
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Foxy you show no logic.

I can't believe you can be so smitten by a pretty face that you can ignore the ratbaggery of the last couple of months. The idiot is desperate to try to find money, almost anywhere, that he can use to try to buy the votes he craves. How many wild schemes does he have to float, before you see how hopeless the man is.

His only plan or interest is to be elected, with no thought of the future.

I recall you actually approved of the equally ratbag Rudd right through. Foxy, good intentions are of no use & they cost too much, & produce nothing but waffle. Hard headed action is what we need.

Are you really so in love with this bloke, that you want to elect him, before you have any ideas of his likely actions. There is no way you can know his likely actions, & the idiot can't tell you what they are likely to be, as he has no idea yet what he will do. You obviously believe he is lying to us, & will act differently if elected. That alone should bar him from election.

I have no interest in minor things like knighthoods, they cost nothing & mean even less, I do care about the ridiculous cost of the academic world, & it's inability to give results, despite costing multiples of what we paid in the past, when results were achieved.

Overblown feather bedded sheltered workshops like the modern CSIRO have to go. It is so long since it produced anything useful, & the climate science scam, one of Turnbull's favourites, just gave me my first $1000 electricity bill, thanks to solar & wind.

We used no more power than just 4 years ago, when the bill was $360 for the same 3 months.

God how we need Trump, Abbott, [with a bit of steel grafted into his backbone], & Boris [Johnson] in the UK. The bleeding hearts could bleed even more, but real people might get some sense back into the world.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 1 April 2016 8:30:49 PM
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Hasbeen,

"God how we need Trump, Abbott, [with a bit of steel grafted into his backbone], & Boris [Johnson] in the UK...."

Oh yeah, baby!

"US election: Donald Trump's nuclear policy 'catastrophic', White House says"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-01/donald-trump-white-house-says-nuclear-policy-catastrophic/7290854

Nutters incorporated...

.......

Foxy,

"I have every confidence that he will surprise us once
he comes into his own. For now he
has to consult with the Cabinet if he wants to survive
as their Party leader. I believe that the decisions which
are being made currently are the Cabinet's. And yet he is
still making progressive changes as he goes along."

"Julie Bishop is in it and so is Arthur Sinodinos. Lucy Turnbull is a foundation member.

Yet the “inner circle” at the top of the federal government does not seem to include Scott Morrison.

Malcolm Turnbull yesterday acknowledged that the Treasurer was not part of the small group told beforehand that the federal budget would be brought forward a week to prepare for a July 2 election.

“I did not call Scott Morrison on Sunday night. No, I did not,” the Prime Minister told the Nine Network’s Lisa Wilkinson yesterday when pressed on the matter. “It was a very small circle,” he added."

The impression is that Morris­on is a mere comet in the Turnbull solar system, circling close to the sun on some occasions while hurtling into the distance on others.

This has observers mystified. How could the Treasurer not be told as soon as possible of the final decision to bring forward the budget — the document that has his name on its title page?

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/federal-election-2016-turnbulls-inner-circle-a-tight-fit/news-story/38de219fd62d55c9c87d5fe4a73c8db8

Great stuff - and that's even before he "comes into his own".
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 10:06:18 PM
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I have just had a thought. OK never mind that stuff!

Foxy & a few others here may be ABC tragics. Some of them may never listen/watch any other source of news. I believe that the ABC does not report the more stupid of Turnbulls, & other leftie politicians ideas.

She & others may not be aware of the half a dozen wild & getting wilder ideas for raising more tax that Turnbull has floated in the last few weeks.

ABC tragics, like global warming tragics would never read a blog, where facts are presented that may challenge their pretty picture of the world, & their favoured politicians.

I may be maligning our Foxy here, but the references she posts are all from the type of sites that would never challenge her picture of Turnbull, or Rudd back in that time.

That of course does not mean she, & others have not read & rejected material from people like JoNova & Bolt, but I am coming to doubt it is likely. No intelligent person, & I don't doubt their intelligence, not a merchant banker, who is actually aware of Turnbull's antics this past month could possibly have the confidence in him that Foxy & Suse among others, exhibit.

Even the merchant bankers must now have some doubt in his ability to give them their huge pay day of a carbon trading scheme.

Tell me Foxy, have you read JoNova, Bolt or even Catallaxy Files in the last month?
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 1 April 2016 10:15:27 PM
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Hasbeen, instead of throwing silly allegations around, perhaps you could supply examples of Turnbull's stupid ideas that the ABC has failed to report?
Posted by Aidan, Friday, 1 April 2016 11:09:45 PM
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Here's the irrepressible Turnbull calling a "media event" to have cameras film him as he walks with Morrison to a car. That's it - no questions....just some kind of pathetic performance to show that he can walk to a car with his Treasurer.

"Australia's shortest media event? The PM's media team calls cameras to film him walking to a car with the treasurer "

http://twitter.com/abcnews/status/715788904197136386
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 1 April 2016 11:14:55 PM
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First tell me Aidan, have you read any of those blogs recently, or are you one of the great misinformed?

Nice to have something we can agree on Poirot.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 1 April 2016 11:43:56 PM
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Mr waffle needs some spelling lessons, he needs to understand his spelling of innovation should be DESPERATION as he is floundering around making life so much easier for his two closest enemies,, Bill Shorten and Tony Abbott.

Does anyone else do what I do now when he speaks, switch off or change the channel?
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 2 April 2016 7:16:41 AM
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Milk Em' Malcolm's hair brained scheme of having the states stick the knife into the battlers and workers of Australia with double income tax went down like a lead balloon with the Primer's, except for that fruit loop from WA Colin Barnett, voters in WA want to remember that at the next state election. Unlike Malcolm the Primers don't want to be the ones to be cutting the heart out of people, and then asking that they vote for them!

What great big tax idea will Turnball come up with next, a tax on sex? Gays can pay double, Barney and his national nutters will insists on that.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 2 April 2016 7:21:12 AM
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rehctub,

"Mr waffle needs some spelling lessons, he needs to understand his spelling of innovation should be DESPERATION as he is floundering around making life so much easier for his two closest enemies,, Bill Shorten and Tony Abbott."

I'll give you a gold star for that one.

Hasbeen,

Yes it is!

Yes we do...but for completely different reasons.

You think he's not right-wing enough.

I think he's actually quite spineless and ineffectual, who's only there for decoration, who's a bit more eloquent (and waffly) at delivering the IPAs agenda.

Incompetent too - can anyone name me another Prime Minister who failed to inform his Treasurer that the Budget date had been changed? On the day that Turnbull announced the Budget would be delivered on the 3rd May, Morrison a little earlier that day had been spruiking that Budget day was May 10.

What sort of dingbat, sensing the rest of us are onto his exclusion of Morrison, has his media team call a media event just so he can stride out and get into a car with his Treasurer?

It's almost vaudeville.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 2 April 2016 8:37:43 AM
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If we get to the nitty gritty of my disagreement with Foxy and Suse on Malcolm's performance, it all comes down to their perception of Malcolm as a moderate - and my perception of him as PM delivering extreme right-wing policy.

I do understand that Foxy believes that Mal is biding his time...and that upon winning the upcoming election that somehow he'll be able to stamp his command and move his party back to the centre.

Never mind that he has so far (if he really is a moderate) sold his soul for the top job, is merrily attempting to deliver the antithesis of what he always touted he stood for.

How is he going to bring the federal party into the centre?

This article explores that - and the similarities between Turnbull's position in his party and Rudd in his.

"To successfully govern for the long-term, you have to govern from the centre, not the fringes," a truism demonstrated by Tony Abbott, who sought to govern a nation from the right wing of the centre-right party. And failed.
"In Rudd's case it was the cause of his demise because his own party wouldn't let him move to the centre; he saw the unions as a brake on his ability to move to the centre politically.

"In just the same way, Turnbull's party won't allow him to move to the centre on social issues," most prominently on same sex marriage.
"Kevin had an undisguised ambition to reduce union control over the party, and elements of the unions and the Labor party were hostile to him as a result.

"Malcolm has the same sort of issue on the other side. All these figures entrenched in the political wing of the Liberals are constantly using conservative elements like 2GB and [Sydney radio and TV broadcaster] Paul Murray to drive a conservative argument against him on same sex marriage, on climate change."

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/six-reasons-malcolm-turnbull-is-looking-a-lot-like-kevin-rudd-20160401-gnwcyn.html#ixzz44cdhacLV

More in article...

Turnbull, being stymied, is attempting to deliver a few stellar thought bubbles to stamp his greatness...unfortunately they POP! as soon as they are released.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 2 April 2016 10:03:00 AM
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Here's an interesting article written about a year
ago (but especially relevant today) as to how
out of touch the conservatives in the Liberal
Party are with average Australian voters. Malcolm
Turnbull won the leadership of the Party by approx.
ten votes and many within the Party view him as a
liability.

I agree with Sally Young, Age columnist and associate
professor of political science at the University of
Melbourne when she writes:

"... far from being a liability because he seems "too
Left" to conservatives Malcolm Turnbull represents an
opportunity because it is the conservatives who are
both a demonstrated liability and out of step with
their own Party history and philosophy... the Party
needs to see Malcolm Turnbull not just as a salesman
for a faulty product, but to give him a proper chance in
policy terms because he represents what a real Liberal
Party could be. And, electorally, it could be a force to
be reckononed with.

There's more in this link:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/how-malcolm-turnbull-could-reclaim-liberal-party-values-20150
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 2 April 2016 2:03:30 PM
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Hi Poirot, to be fair to Turnball, I'm only dirty on his stupid tax ideas at the moment, hasn't done a lot thus far for my way of thinking, social justice issues, I want to see changes there in particular.
Turnball paid plenty for the top job, bought off Morrison and others, including Bishop, was successful with ousting Hockey, got his man into North Sydney at the same time. Has managed to get a number of the rights ratbags to stand down next election. Spectacularly unsuccessful at getting Abbott to P off to London. He can't do a lot about the Nationals and their wombat of a leader Barney Rubble, he is saddled with them.

"How is he going to bring the federal party into the centre?"

The only way is for Turnball to score a resounding victory at the next election. A narrow win would be seen by Abbott and others as a green light for Abbott to make a comeback to the top job. Abbott is only hanging around because he thinks he still has a good chance to return. If he didn't he would have snapped up the HC job in London.
A Labor win would spell disaster for Abbott, too many within the Party would be after the leadership with Morrison the most likely choice.

Abbott to me looks the most likely to have a favorable outcome at the next election. Shorten must win, or come very close to retain leadership, and Turbull has to have a resounding victory to make the top job his. At the moment both Turnbull and Shorten are working for Abbott.

p/s I reckon Turnbull will be having a few bob on with 'Sportsbet' backing Tony Windsor in New England "go you little beauty" said Malcolm.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 2 April 2016 2:04:19 PM
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Thanks, Foxy...will look at it soon.

I don't believe anyone could blame me for being flabbergasted with Turnbull's performance thus far. He appears to be blindly lurching around in the dark for a tax policy.

What can we make of his latest lark?

He makes an off-the-cuff announcement in a sports park about handing income taxing powers back to the states. That's no small thing. It was ridiculous. He tried to ambush the Premiers at COAG...then...

Then it was scrapped.

I could have told him it would be rejected.

You could have told him it would be rejected.

He behaves like a ten year-old who's mistakenly been given the keys to the PMO.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-02/ministers-defend-pm-as-shorten-attacks-'humiliating'-tax-plan/7294586

"Senior ministers have thrown their support behind Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, after his contentious plan for income tax was rejected at yesterday's Council of Australian Governments (COAG) meeting in Canberra.

Key points:

Bill Shorten labels Turnbull 'arrogant' for thinking proposal would gain support
Annastacia Palaszczuk says states 'never got any documentation about the proposal'
Sussan Ley, Julie Bishop defend proposal, lay blame on states for rejecting plan
The support comes after Opposition Leader Bill Shorten described Mr Turnbull as "arrogant" for thinking his proposal would ever gain support.

Mr Turnbull announced a plan to reduce the Commonwealth's rate of income tax to allow the states and territories to levy their own tax to fund health and education on Wednesday.

But he was unable to convince state and territory leaders it was the best way to fix their budgets, and the plan was scrapped.

Mr Shorten has labelled it a "humiliating farce"."

Humiliating farce is right!
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 2 April 2016 5:04:23 PM
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Yes, Paul - one assumes Abbott is trotting about as default PM because he thinks he's going to rebound at some point back into the top job...speaking of which, he should be along shortly with his latest stunt.

Would you like to read what the young Malcolm Turnbull said back in 1976 when Fraser unveiled a proposal to return income taxing power to the states?

According to Laurie Oakes:

"The young Turnbull wrote of Fraser's plan: "It is nothing more than a cunning attempt to offload millions of dollars worth of govt expenditure back onto the states without giving them any means other than imposing an income tax, of raising extra revenue needed."

States were not so much being sold a pup, Turnbull argued, as being given "a large extremely hungry and undoubtedly treacherous hound".

What a guy!
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 2 April 2016 8:07:30 PM
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Dennis Shanahan in the Australian tearing strips off Turnbull over the tax shambles - while praising Labor's reaction.

"Shorten and Bowen look more agile than Turnbull and Morrison"

"Labor is getting off scot-free in the tax debate but Scott Morrison and Malcolm Turnbull are paying a heavy price. Bill Shorten has improved his media presentation, his political messages are clearer and he is taking full advantage of having released tax policies.

It is also clear that as Labor’s Treasury spokesman Chris Bowen has grown more agile and innovative, he has come up with more big ideas and been able to cut through more effectively than the Treasurer and the Prime Minister.

Bowen didn’t miss a beat in declaring Turnbull’s proposal on Wednesday to give income tax powers to the states “double taxation”, laying the groundwork for a highly effective and credible scare campaign all the way through to the election, whether it’s on July 2 or months later.

Once Turnbull confirmed reports in The Australian that he was considering giving the states income tax powers, Bowen labelled it “a plan for double taxation via state income tax surcharges”, reviving the killer political line used by NSW Labor premier Neville Wran in 1978 against Malcolm Fraser’s similar proposal when Bowen was just five years old."

“Malcolm Turnbull’s latest ‘ideas boom’ on tax takes us back to Tony Abbott’s 2014 Commission of Audit and then to the pre-1942 tax system,” he declared.

What’s more, Bowen and the Opposition Leader were able to highlight yet more apparent differences between Turnbull and Morrison by standing shoulder to shoulder and ­decrying the “chaos and dysfunction” at the top of the Coalition.

Labor’s response to the income tax sharing proposal — Turnbull’s hurried exposition of the biggest idea on federation for generations at a western Sydney suburban football field without any detail and the subsequent confusion — was co-ordinated, coherent and united."

etc....

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/dennis-shanahan/shorten-and-bowen-look-more-agile-than-turnbull-and-morrison/news-story/770b2505fbc688388f22616e56b60f6c
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 2 April 2016 9:36:45 PM
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P,

Are left whingers so seriously naive as to think that MT on becoming PM was going to shift the coalition to the left of Labor? MT Like Abbott is Rhodes scholar and a successful businessman to boot. He might favour small l policies such as gay marriage and climate action, but he has the economic knous to know that Labor's policies are a recipe for long term disaster.

The reasons Labor was tossed out included, the boats crisis, Labor's economic incompetence, rampant union corruption, and the carbon tax lie, and instead of acknowledging their cock up, have done everything in their power to stop the Coalition from reversing their mistakes.

MT is setting the scene to fight the election on balancing the budget, and union corruption, and is moving all the chess pieces into place.

What we have is the new senate laws that will get rid of the idiot independent senators, a likely rejection by labor and the senate of the popular ABCC legislation, and rejection by COAG (especially the labor states) of revenue raising measures such as the GST and state taxes, yet states demanding the money that labor promised.

Labor's scare campaign on hospital and school funding is going to look stupid if they can't fund it, and the coalition is going to run hard on the union corruption, and on Shorten's dirty deals that robbed workers of benefits.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:33:19 AM
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Dear Poirot,

You are one of the few people on The Forum OLO who makes any sense.

I agree with your assessment of Turnbull's disastrous double tax proposition but would like to add that his prime motive for handing some personal income tax responsibilities to the States is to make them responsible for increasing income taxes in order to get the revenue needed to fund the rising costs of hospitals, schools, etc. Let the States take the blame and let them lose votes at the election. A bit of a Pontius Pilate routine.

In other words, income tax has become another one of those political footballs kicked back and forth between the State and Federal governments. It's easy to see why the States don't want any of it. Why should they run the risk of having to tell voters they have to increase personal income tax before a State election? It would be political suicide.

I think everyone is now starting to see through the emperor's new clothes. Turnbull is not the solution to The Onion Eater - he has turned out to be part of the problem.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:41:47 AM
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SM,

"Are left whingers so seriously naive as to think that MT on becoming PM was going to shift the coalition to the left of Labor?..."

Lol!...I think at this juncture, after all this time with a far right-wing IPA govt, we'd be satisfied to see MT shift the Coalition to the left of Genghis Khan.

You did see my last post?

That was Dennis Shanahan in the Australian (serial cheerleaders of the LNP) - pointing out how woeful is MT's performance. Not only that, but praising Labor's response and their performance in general.

Magnificent Mal's thought bubbles - this last one lasted less than 24 hours before it was scrapped.

He looks like a fool.

And your posts are getting more deluded by the day.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:57:21 AM
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P,

While I recognise that for you and your ilk any attempt at border control, balanced budgets or prevention of corruption, reeks of fascism, I would guess that you would consider Labor right wing, and the greens centrist. A pity that nearly everyone disagrees with you.

It gives me great relief that you believe me deluded, as with previous times this is a cert that I am right. I seem to recall that about 6 months ago I predicted that the coalition's tactics would be to go for a DD based on balanced budget and union corruption, I suppose I was also deluded then?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 3 April 2016 11:45:00 AM
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Poirot "Magnificent Mal's thought bubbles - this last one lasted less than 24 hours before it was scrapped.
He looks like a fool."

As Shadow Minister mentioned Poirot, Malcolm is obviously a bright bloke, so do you seriously imagine that he suggested these tax reforms with no thought at all as to the consequences?

He had some sort of agenda and I think it has to do with suggesting to the States that if they don't take most of the responsibility for taxes to raise money for health and schools in their own states, well then the Federal Government can't be blamed for inflicting whatever taxes they want onto the public!

I don't think he would have mentioned it to many of his far right-wing colleagues because they may have had a stroke. It won't be a popular policy, like Abbott's one on 'stopping the boats', so he had to think of a round about way of introducing the hard decisions about how to fund education and health needs.

I don't think Mal is stupid at all...
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 April 2016 12:06:11 PM
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Yes, Suse....as a matter of fact, I do think Mal suggested these tax reforms with no thought as to the consequences.

Most media commentators are of the same opinion.

There was no documentation to back it up.

It barely lasted 24 hours.

It was a brain fart of distinction.

Did you read the young Mal's scathing opinion of returning income taxing powers to the states, cica 1976?

1942....1942 is where the innovativeTurnbull wishes to take us.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 12:29:41 PM
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Dear Suse,

Malcolm Turnbull to me represents a proper chance
in policy terms to what a real Liberal Party could
be, and as stated earlier -
electorally, it could be a force to be
reckoned with.

If you Googled -" Prime Minister
Malcolm Turnbull is asked whether income tax reform
is a double tax?" the link is worth a read.

As is - the link - " How Malcolm Turnbull could reclaim
Liberal Party values."

My apologies, due to further computer problems I'm
unable to provide these links for you. However they're
on the web and worth reading.

Regardless of what anyone says it will be the voters
at election time who will judge Malcolm Turnbull and
I bet that Malcolm Turnbul and the Coalition will win
the next election, and the one after that.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 April 2016 12:49:44 PM
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SM,

"Are left whingers so seriously naive as to think that MT on becoming PM was going to shift the coalition to the left of Labor?..."

Not this little black duck...I've been attempting to alert Suse and Foxy to this fact - with little success.

....

Suse,

Yes, we all know Turnbull is supposed to be bright - brilliant even.

The thing is that politics is a tad different to his other successes in life.

I'm sure when he was at the Bar, he revelled in his role. He fashioned the narrative and went from there.

The problem he has now is that he can't control the narrative...and when he can't control the narrative he comes up hollow.

In an attempt to counter his lack of control, he tries to be cunning. He knows people like yourself are aware of his reputation for being "bright" - and that gives him some leeway - until his bright ideas are on the table where they're quickly revealed to have either no substance or to be completely insane.

His judgement is in question here, as it was in the wake of utegate.

In politics he appears to be rather adept at making a fool of himself.

I had hoped for more from him, especially as he replaced the chaotic Abbott.

However, he's going to have to do more than wake up in the morning with a "bright idea", trot along to a sports field and deploy it like an amateur.

Perhaps he thinks standard gauge rail is overrated too?
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 12:56:01 PM
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Foxy, Suse,

Just point out that Turnbull's latest folly is not "reform".

Far from it - it's merely passing the buck onto the states and retrograding us back to WWII where we'd be saddled with myriad different taxing regimes.

Tax reform would take some real brilliance - not the coward's way out.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 1:01:47 PM
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Poirot, I watched the Insiders program this morning on ABC, and they all thought the same thing as me, so I am pleased I am not the only one to imagine that Turnbull is not a stupid as he appeared first on this tax reform.

I am not saying it was a good idea at all, just that he maybe thought about it more than most people think. I doubt Turnbull left his brain at the door of Parliament House as he became Prime Minister. To suggest he is not so bright now he has a political career, rather than in law or journalism, is a bit of a stretch, even for you.

Thanks Foxy, I will look up those links and get back to you.
Keep the faith!
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 April 2016 1:15:42 PM
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Suse,

They all thought the same thing?

By "all", I presume you're referring to Gerard Henderson...(surprise, surprise!)

Here's an interesting "what if" article:

"Now consider this: what if Turnbull had pulled the election trigger late last year? Because after yet another ragged week, he's probably wishing he could hop in a time machine and do just that.

What if he had gone to the Australian people shortly after he replaced Abbott and said: "I don't want to govern without a mandate. I want your approval to take this government in a new direction."

He surely saw Gillard's experience as a cautionary tale – a woeful campaign that resulted in a hung Parliament that drove the nation nuts.

But it wouldn't have panned out like that for Turnbull.

After the past three months – marked mainly by scandal, policy paralysis, the tax debate mess and the ghost of Abbott past – the PM's honeymoon feels like a distant memory. But in 2015, his approval ratings were stratospheric and it increasingly looks as if he should have capitalised and gone to the polls then.

There would have been some practical hurdles, sure; most notably, coming up with an election platform that differentiated him from Abbott without sending the right-wing attack dogs completely crazy.

But think of the advantages. He could have gone to the people before his numbers – both personal and party – started to slide; before voters realised their expectations were unrealistic; before the attacks on his weak-kneed approach to same-sex marriage and climate change and republicanism started to bite; before the Mal Brough, Jamie Briggs, Stuart Robert and Arthur Sinodinos affairs; before the conservative cabal started feeling emboldened; and before Abbott started making real trouble.

He could have avoided the tax debate, which seems to have done little but hand his opponents ammunition. He could also have avoided the Herculean task of crafting an election-year budget with no money."

etc...

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/if-malcolm-turnbull-could-turn-back-time-20160401-gnw4sz.html#ixzz44jQLoQt
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 1:48:02 PM
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Yes Poirot, Malcolm had all the loony left on side. All hoping Turnbull would run a good nice efficient lefty government, as Labor has proved it can not. Granted that is what he wants, but he now knows that the real people, in increasing numbers will not stand for any increase in waste.

All sensible people know we must cut back on many things, particularly on the very things loved by the bleeding heart left. We can no longer support millions of useless mouths, local or imported, who have proven they will not do anything for themselves if they can possibly avoid it.

Turnbull will try, is every deceitful sneaky way he can, but the party will stop him. He will succeed of course, if elected, in preventing anything useful actually being achieved.

Could he win, possibly, but we had better pray he does not.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 3 April 2016 3:19:11 PM
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Foxy, I read that article you suggested on Turnbull's tax suggestions. I can certainly see merit in what he is suggesting, but I understand why the State governments don't want to do it! They wouldn't be able to blame the Federal Government anymore if they ran out of money.

Poirot, there is no point looking back at what-ifs as far as Turnbull's Government goes, we must look to the future. As long as it is a future without Abbott and his apostles, I will be fairly happy.
I remain certain the Coalition will win the election, so you had better prepare for that. Labor will need a new leader to try out their luck at the election after next.

Hasbeen, I can't see why you keep going on about 'loony-left", lefties" and "leftists" when you are also ranting about the current Coalition PM. We all know Malcolm will have to toe the conservative line most of the time, to appease his more "rabid right" colleagues who are still sobbing about the holy Abbott's demise.

Exactly who are you going to vote for in the coming election then, if not for your originally beloved Liberals? Or will you be among the intellectually challenged voters who do a 'donkey' vote or, worse still, go for one of the many Australian moron parties - like the 'Rise Up Australia Party', 'Katter's Australia Party, or the 'Christian Democrats Party'?
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 April 2016 5:09:24 PM
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What a surreal thread!

I've got Foxy telling me that Mal needs to be given more time to show his moderate side, which will somehow magically appear at a date to be announced - presumably once he romps home in an election won on the back of his former reputation as a moderate..

Suse has a foot in both camps, saying something similar while simultaneously backing Mal's brain snaps.

Shadow Minister is still using the script he had in 2010.

And Hasbeen hates Turnbull so much, he's ignoring all of Mal's far right-wing appeasement so far - and plumping for him to be defeated.

It's kinda entertaining!
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 5:12:33 PM
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It is always interesting to read the different opinions
on this forum. We can learn so much from them, especially
if we keep an open mind.

I think its unrealistic for Mr Turnbull to make any
big announcements on policy shifts. The dead wood has
to be removed first. We should have a clearer idea of
his "leadership style" further this year. At the moment
he's still in a "consultative" phase which he said he
would be. And he's kept his word. The states refused his
tax reform suggestion. He accepted their decision and it's
off the table. He was simply doing his job. As he said,
"It's my job to lead reform, to push the envelop."

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2015/54436264.htm
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 April 2016 6:26:54 PM
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cont'd ...

Sorry for my typo.

Here's the correct link:

http://www.abc.net.au/insiders/content/2015/s4436264.htm
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 3 April 2016 6:31:46 PM
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P&F,

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-stories/2016/04/03/sky-in-conversation-with-malcolm-turnbull.html

Look at this interview with MT. He accepts that the States tax is dead, but makes it clear that now that the states have rejected the GST and their chance to raise taxes, they have no credibility to ask for the federal government to raise taxes to meet Juliar's fantasy promises.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 3 April 2016 7:23:34 PM
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Shadow Minister, you surely aren't still carrying on about Gillard at this time?
So if the Coalition has any problems now, it is still due to Gillard or Rudd?
Not Abbott of course, even though he was so bad his own party threw him out.

Poirot is still banging Willie Shorten's drum, even though he hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of getting the top job.
I will have the virtual tissues ready for most of you to sob into when Turnbull is returned to the top job in July...

Yes, it is interesting times here on the forum.
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:10:41 PM
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Suze,

Exactly, Juliar's promises are history and the coalition has bugger all obligation to meet them.

PS, watch the video and catch up.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:23:50 PM
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Did anyone ever say the Coalition had an obligation to follow what Gillard said or did Shadow Minister? Certainly not me.

It will be up to the voters to decide if they will still choose the Coalition at the election, whether they follow on with Labor's policies or not.
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:41:08 PM
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SM,

"Look at this interview with MT. He accepts that the States tax is dead..."

Wowee!

He accepts it's dead.

The States tax?

The "Bwilliant" idea?

The one he thought of as he was shaving and scrawled on the back of his train ticket on the way to the sports ground - in between taking selfies of himself being an ordinary guy?

(Only joking...no doubt he was chauffeured in his govt car - to the sports ground where he could deliver his "idea" just like an ordinary guy.)

Suse,

"Poirot is still banging Willie Shorten's drum...."

Wow, Suse can summon up the "Willie Shorten" line just like the big bad righties on here - she's graduated to a plane of consciousness that the rest of us can only marvel at...the one where you ignore all the cretinous misdemeanour's of your chosen one and bypass any sensible conclusions.

Well done, Suse....you'll be attaining the heights of the Abbott lovers around here soon!
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 3 April 2016 8:43:00 PM
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Well Poirot, I remain secure in the knowledge that my apparent 'love' for Turnbull will never come near the incredible infatuation you have for Willie, despite all evidence that points towards the fact you are backing a lame horse :)

It seems our only common point is our companionable dislike of Abbott...
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 April 2016 9:31:11 PM
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"Well Poirot, I remain secure in the knowledge that my apparent 'love' for Turnbull will never come near the incredible infatuation you have for Willie, despite all evidence that points towards the fact you are backing a lame horse :)"

(Oops!...we're back in the quadrangle again....bragging about who's taking us to the school social)

But seriously, folks....the minute Shorten starts a weekly course in making an arse of himself - like Turnbull (and his predecessor) - I'll start criticising him.

Whodathunk Suse would wait for the federal LNP to turn rabid right-wing before she came out of the closet with her Conservative colours!

Strange days indeed....
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 4 April 2016 5:21:37 AM
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Poirot and Suse, so far into his reign Turnball has only managed to shoot himself in the left foot, which means he's still hobbling around on his right foot. Unfortunately for Milk Em' Malcolm there is a very large bunion on his right foot, which he calls Tony! Providing Mal does not shoot himself in his one half good foot, and providing Tony the bunion does not burst before the election, it is my view Milk Em' Malcolm will fall across the line. Besides the problems he been having with his scatter gun, he affectionately calls Tax, and that painful bunion Tony, Barney the Monkey on his back is dammed unconformable. Fortunately for Mal, the only other runner in the race is the legless Silly Willie!
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 4 April 2016 7:33:34 AM
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Paul,

Mal better get on with it....the trajectory of his popularity is still heading south at a rate of knots...according to a Newspoll analysis.

My conclusion on Suse's attitude is - seeing as there's no "fundamental" shift in LNP policies since Mal took the rudder - that she's thrilled with the IPA policies unleashed by the Abbott govt (even though they were delivered by way of deceit at the last election)

She thinks they're great!

However, she didn't like Abbott's style or the way he delivered those policies.

It seems she much prefers IPA-LNP policy delivered by Mal.

Am I on the right track there, Suse?
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 4 April 2016 10:13:33 AM
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P,

I sense an air of desperation in you and other rabid left whingers. MT has carefully blunted any scare campaign that electricity Bill could run. The idiot independents will be looking for a job, and Bill and the Labor party will have their corrupt dealings aired in great detail.

If you don't like MT's tax policies then why were you silent when Billy vomited up his thought bubble negative gains and emission target policies. I look forward to his explanation of how taking money from Cleanevent to remove union workers overtime payments was in their best interests.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 4 April 2016 12:53:18 PM
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SM,

Labor's negative gearing policy is an actual policy...backed by independent modelling too.

"Independent modelling has dented the Turnbull government's attack on Labor's negative gearing policy, finding it will generate billions for the Commonwealth with the vast bulk of revenue coming from just the top 10 per cent of households who negatively gear their properties.

The report's author says the policy would likely slow the pace of house-price growth and boost new housing construction, making it "potentially the biggest housing affordability policy the country has seen."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/independent-modelling-backs-labors-negative-gearing-policy-20160219-gmyl8o.html#ixzz44p8Ybp00

It has actual written documentation - as opposed to Mal's brain fart, dreamed up one morning as he was gazing admiringly at himself in the mirror.

Didn't even make a written proposal.

I read this morning that candidate for the right-wing's most boring politician, Kevin Andrews, says he'd be prepared to challenge Turnbull if the circumstances were right.

Which is hilarious!....and just shows the nuttery abounding in govt.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/east/kevin-andrews-says-he-would-be-prepared-to-challenge-pm-malcolm-turnbull-under-right-circumstances/news-story/347bc7990b9baba7daf5045d7c512068
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 4 April 2016 1:19:45 PM
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Newspoll: Malcolm Turnbull, Coalition lose lead to Labor

"The Coalition has surrendered its lead to Labor for the first time since Malcolm Turnbull became Prime Minister, with the latest Newspoll revealing the Bill Shorten-led opposition has pulled ahead, 51 per cent to 49 per cent, in two-party terms.

Amid mixed messages about the government’s tax policy and tensions between the Prime Minister and Treasurer Scott Mor­rison, support for the Coalition has tumbled to a six-month low as Mr Turnbull’s own standing ­continues to slide just 88 days out from a possible double-dissolution election."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/newspoll-malcolm-turnbull-coalition-lose-lead-to-labor/news-story/481794644ea4fc1cb898cb7189fd84b0
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 4 April 2016 10:26:11 PM
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Gee Poirot, where on earth would I be if I didn't have you to tell me what I actually think about this subject?
I don't believe I have commented very often on the Coalition policies as such, especially as this thread seems to be a discussion of Turnbull versus Shorten, isn't that correct?

So, I will say again that I prefer Turnbull's style of leadership, public speaking, sense of humour, and general manner rather than Shorten's..... style.
No doubt you won't like that comment, but it is my opinion.
Posted by Suseonline, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 12:34:29 AM
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Hi Suse and Poirot,

I would say Turnbull's political thinking ls closer to that of Shorten's than it is to Abbotts. On a personal level Turnbull and Abbott don't like each other, they are not even on speaking terms. But party policy is not ones personal political thinking, even for the Prime Minister, he is caught between a rock and a hard place on that score. At the moment Turnbull is a captive of the right faction of the party, they still have the numbers. What would give Turnbull the authority he wants, would be a resounding electoral win in his own right, it would serve to silence the critics within.
Abbott still has the support of a solid hard core dissident right faction of the party who are working to control events, whereby Abbott is in a position to make a comeback, despite the fact 75% of voters want him to get the hell out of the place. Kevin Andrews, a leading Turnbull hater himself, and Abbott supporter, fired off a salvo yesterday with "I to could be Prime Minister" which was nothing more than a public message to Turnbull that they are still on his case. Turnbull did himself no favors with his tax announcements, scored an own goal with that one. When a politician talks tax, he has to treat it like the plague, tell everyone he is going to control it, but not spread it to you. In an election year tax should only be spoken of in the vaguest of terms, peppered with a few feel good statements, like "On my reelection I will will be tackling the issue of taxation with vigor! Whilst at the same time coming down hard on those that would avoid their tax obligations to the good folk of Australia, you my beloved electorate etc etc."
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 5:35:29 AM
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Poirot,

Independent modelling! what BS. This is exactly the back of the ciggy box calculations by one person that got Krudd and Juliar in so much trouble. One prof at a uni did a calculation on limited set of variables.

The more reliable modelling is the professional economy wide modelling done on similar policies for the real estate industry that showed that Labor's policies would be a complete disaster.

Labor also did bugger all modelling for its 40% emission reduction by 2030. What a joke.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 7:15:38 AM
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Suse,

You are right - that is the title of the thread. And you've been saying all along that you prefer Turnbull to Shorten.

I should have realised that from your viewpoint it was merely a discussion confined to the superficial impressions of the two leaders and left it at that.

My problem is that I tend to connect the individual to their present role. And then I tend to analyse their performance in relation to that role...that's where I'm obviously going wrong!

Considering their roles are integral to the outcomes of people, their lives and opportunities - that makes it even worse.

Here's what you posted earlier:

"Personally, I think Turnbull and Co. might just make it over the line. Shorten just doesn't have the personality to inspire a majority of voters, despite what policies labor comes up with. I don't believe it is always about policies at all."

It's often enough initially to get by on a bit of charm and some soothing rhetoric.....but ultimately, it's always about policies.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 7:52:09 AM
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Paul,

Yes, I agree that Turnbull doesn't command enough power to stamp his authority.

Yabby, on another thread, pointed out in relation to Mal's thought bubbles - that he thinks more like an entrepreneur than a bureaucrat. I would agree with that - except an entrepreneur would first make sure his bright idea was a goer before sprinkling it all about the place willy nilly. An entrepreneur who kept advertising his failed thought bubbles wouldn't be an entrepreneur for very long.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 8:28:57 AM
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"Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has ceded the Coalition's lead in an opinion poll for the first time since the leadership coup, when he said Tony Abbott's poor performance in the same survey justified the change.

Newspoll, published by News Corp late on Monday night, had the Labor party leading the Coalition 51-49 on a two-party preferred basis. Mr Turnbull's personal ratings were down four points, while Labor leader Bill Shorten's by improved six points, which is outside the margin of error."

"Queensland backbench MP Ewen Jones told Fairfax Media he believed the budget would answer a lot of questions about the government's direction and said he did not believe claims Mr Shorten was "unelectable."

"For me, in a marginal seat, I have never agreed to the idea that Bill Shorten could not be elected," he said.

"Things will always tighten up in an election year.

"We got elected in 2013 to fix the budget. That requires leadership and uncomfortable discussions.

"I back Malcolm here. If we stand for something, keep pointing out the issues, the problems, the obstacles but continue to push forward our ideas on the transitioning economy we will win the election."

Mr Jones said the Coalition had taken a predictable hit by highlighting state government spending.

One government MP who did not want to be named told Fairfax Media the ratings showed Mr Turnbull needed to abandon his dithering and "start doing something".

"The government needs a narrative badly," the MP confided.

"The only narrative going is that the PM is a charmer. That's not enough to convince the public to re-elect the government," the MP said."

etc....

http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/malcolm-turnbull-and-the-coalition-lose-lead-to-labor-newspoll-20160404-gnycmg.html
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 8:47:58 AM
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Hi Poirot, the old conservative survey 'Newspoll' Labor 51/49 will shock the Nervous Nellies in marginal Liberal seats. I said last week the Turnball Tax policy cost the coalition 5 points, that was obvious, and for what gain, have the State Primers, all except the Wally from WA kick it into the long grass (a Turnball expression). No matter what the outcome Turnball in a "master stroke" has planted the notion into voters minds he wants to introduce double taxation. Labor should exploit the tax issue at every opportunity with the simple message; "Turbull wants to double your tax!" Who is Malcolm's political adviser? Lucy.

On 'Newspoll' 51/49 is not enough lead for Labor, governments nearly always pull back about 3% of votes in the last 2 weeks of an election campaign. Shorten looked a lot more comfortable on the ABC yesterday. fielding questions nicely, I think he feels he has a good chance.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 10:03:41 AM
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Paul,

"...Who is Malcolm's political adviser? Lucy."

That's not far from the truth...he has a "very small" inner circle which doesn't include the Treasurer - but does include Lucy and Arfur SeeNoDonors.

I note Abbott was on the radio this morning bleating something about his idea on ISIS that we should take a risk and stop the death cult.

Right on cue.

You couldn't make this stuff up!
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 10:13:33 AM
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Hi Poirot, Turnball bought Morrison's support with the Treasures job, that doesn't come with the bonus of joining the inner sanctum. The latest economic policies to be announced tomorrow by Turnball, well... Morrison's copy will be posted this arvo in the snail mail, he'll get it next week. Just because he is Treasurer doen't mean Turnball has to inform or consult Morrison on economic and financial matters, he can read all about it in the papers, like the rest of us.
No special privileges. If Morrison protests then Turnball can tell him to go count some beans.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 12:07:53 PM
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Predictions:
Liberals will lose the election
Turnbull will resign
Warren Entsch will lose his seat in Cairns
Labor will make a co operative government with minority parties.
Bill Shortone will be Prime Minister (for a while)
As we go into recession and depression Labor will borrow more
Business will be taxed at a higher rate causing job losses
Succinctly we will be worse off than Italy
Actually it doesn't matter who wins the people will lose.
Posted by chrisgaff1000, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 6:50:54 PM
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chrisgaff1000, we do have one enormous advantage over Italy: unlike them, we have unlimited credit because we own the RBA. No mstter how much debt we have, when our economy needs stimulating we can afford to just as easily as we could if we had no debt at all.

If Labor win the election and the economy needs stimulating, do you think they'd choose not to do so? If so, why?

Why do you think taxing businesses at a higher rate would cause job losses?

And if Turnbull resigns, who do you think would take over as Liberal leader?
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 11:39:51 PM
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The conservative commentators like Alan Jones and his sidekick Richo (don't be fooled, he as conserve as they come) are falling over themselves to stick it up Turnball. One might think Turnball has developed political leprosy. The 51/49 'Newspoll' doesn't include Turnball's income tax stuff up yet, next month could be worse, say 53/47. At 49 the enemy within grumble, at 47 the knives come out, at 45 it goodnight Malcolm!

Another stupidly from Turnball is if the Senate rejects his union bashing legislation he has committed to a long election campaign, which plays into the hands of Labor. When your in government the thing you want is snap elections, don't give the opposition time to gain momentum and get moving on their feet, next thing you know they will be counter punching and have you on the ropes. That is exactly what Turnball is doing, giving Labor and Shorten plenty of time to raise their profile with the electorate. At the moment the majority of voters know Turnball but only have a casual knowledge of Shorten. In normal mode the media coverage is about 2 to 1 for the incumbent, works well if you are doing okay, In election mode it a new ball game more like 50/50. A long campaign also gives the loose cannons within more time to shoot themselves and you. Labors front bench looks fairly well disciplined compared to the Coalition, with the likes of Abbott, Joyce, Morrison etc likely to blow up at anytime.

Turnball has problems!
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 5:43:59 AM
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Given the Newspoll result yesterday I won't be putting my money on Turnbull to win the election.

It will be interesting now how the senators will react to Turnbull's challenge in light of the Newspoll result. One would image that the poll will give them the courage to dig their heels in and call Turnbull's bluff on the double dissolution threat.
Posted by Mr Opinion, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 5:55:58 AM
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Suze, sadly personalities do have a lot to do with politics today and one way to fix that would be to do away with compulsory voting. Remember those who refused to vote for Husten because he divorced his wife and drove a Farrari.

The other problem with politics is that the only people who actually vote for a prime minster are those in that persons electorate and given the topsy turvy way our PM's have been chopped and changed in recent history, its anyones guess who will be leader of this country.

So I agree that personalities do play a large part today.

The fact remains that since Howard, we have only had one PM that has actually done anything constructive by way of addressing costs, and that's Abbott, and most hate his guts, however, if Turnbull is right and we do have to live within our means, Abbott is the only one so far capable to do the job, but the plebs hated him for trying last time.

In the past decade or so we have pumped hundreds of billions into waste such as indigenous welfare (certain areas), illegals (thanks to Rudd)to name some and, with our mining boom now gone, the chickens have come back to roost and no one has a clue how to deal with the situation.

Continued waste must be followed with tough times and those times are now upon us.

We have a PM who wants to do nothing, and a wannabe who wants to ruin the housing market and building industry.

Tip. If we don't have a DD, Abbott will role Turnbull pre election. Remember, the party votes for a PM, not the people.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 7:09:11 AM
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Sorry Suze, Morrison is my other pick.

So Malcom Turnbull must call a DD election or in my view he will be gone.
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 7:10:59 AM
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Hasbeen, "the only people who actually vote for a prime minster are those in that persons electorate" In theory that's true, in practice there is a difference, with the front man with the media, the Prime Minister, the opposition leader (always battling for coverage) the voters very much formulate their opinion based on the persona of the leaders, who they recognize, most voters wouldn't know their local member if they walked past him or her in the street, and certainly wouldn't have a clue about the opposition candidates. The second important factor is the parties and their policies, particularly the governments as they are the ones who have been putting their policies into practice pre-election.
Call it populists politics, but what gets you voted in, is to identify what resonates with voters then formulate a positive policy on that issue which will appeal to the majority. One of the leaders jobs is to sell policy to the voters, he or she has to be the parties number one salesperson. If the party can get that right more than not, and the leader and his team look like one big happy family then that mob will do well.
Turnball tried to go early to cash in on his new boy popularity and strong voter confidence in unannounced anticipated policies. i think he has missed the boat (vote). Left at the bus stop. Can Turnball pull it back, maybe!
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 6 April 2016 11:15:41 AM
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Paul, in my view Turnbull is no longer in control of his destiny, rather, it will be a matter of whether or not Shorten can convince the voters that he is any different to Rudd and Gillard, remembering that he was right there through the whole six odd years of the waste and mismanagement.
Not only was he there, but he was the 'King Maker' as his influence was critical in the overturning of Gillard in the end.
He was also head of the corrupt union movement, but most people are aware the unions have been corrupt for decades, but true labor voters are able to ignore such situations as they are almost brainwashed to a degree. My late father wore the same type of glasses as to him his beloved labor could do no wrong.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 8 April 2016 6:15:43 AM
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Butch, one of the biggest shifts in my lifetime has been the move away from a solid core of rusted on voters, call them class voters if you want, which in the 1950's-60's accounted for about 80% of the voting population, today that figure is down to about 50%. 50% of people who walk into a polling booth will vote Labor or Coalition, based on the fact that is the party they have voted for in every state and federal election since they first voted. When that figure was at 80% it was of great comfort to the major parties, your starting from a base of 40%, not 25%. In early days political news like all news was slow to be received, it came mainly through newspapers, it was very biased, and that made the newspaper moguls very powerful men (they were all men), they could tip the balance of a small percentage one way or the other and therefore influence the outcome, They were not always anti Labor but by and large they were pro conservative. They backed the Liberal/Country Party coalition in every federal election post WWII under Menzies. It was not until Murdoch in particular threw his support behind Whitlam in 1972 that Labor won government.

The electorates biggest gripe with Rudd/Gillard was not so much policy but the changing of leadership and the perceived instability of government. If Abbott pulled a leadership challenge now, and won or lost, the Coalition would lose the next election, for the very same reason, perceived instability.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 8 April 2016 8:32:13 AM
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Paul,

While left whingers like yourself would like to pretend that policies of Krudd and Juliar were fine, and that they lost simply because they could stop stabbing each other, the reality is that their policies sucked big time.

Starting with boats disaster, the school halls debacle, the mining tax stuff up, pink batts etc for krudd, and the East Timor solution, the carbon tax lie, the free pass for union corruption, the support for corrupt labor MPs, by Juliar, plus the wild spending and general fiscal incompetence.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 11 April 2016 8:13:54 AM
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Shadow, as you know I am not a supporter of the Labor Party, at the time of the last election on the forum I advocated a vote for your man Abbott. I believed, like caster oil, it would be "good" for the electorate to experience at least three years of Abbottism, possibly six. However the fool crashed and burned in two years, you just can't plan for idiocracy!

As for Rudd and Gilard, I preferred Rudd. sadly now Turnball is looking very much a let down. I think in future we the people will have to demand our political leaders have an IQ of at least half the national average, so we'll set the bench mark at IQ 50. Anyone with an IQ of less than 50 can not be considered for anything other than leader of the National Party, that makes it safe for Barney.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 12 April 2016 6:21:01 AM
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Paul,

You advocated for Abbott? What bollocks.

If you are advocating an IQ of 50 as the bottom limit for IQ, virtually no green would sit in parliament. You have morons like SHY and Lee Rhiannon whose only other employment opportunities would be serving burgers at McDonalds
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 12 April 2016 5:41:51 PM
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