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The Forum > General Discussion > Euro, & global warming, strange bed fellows.

Euro, & global warming, strange bed fellows.

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Am I the only one who has noticed a striking similarity between the ideas of the euro, & global warming?

Great minds, [or perhaps huge egos] conceived these ideas/theories. These egos became self-appointed experts.

The ideas are simple, & easily promoted, common currency good, CO2 bad.

Millions of folk accepted the ideas, without ever understanding, or
even trying to understand them.

Smarties jumped on the band wagon, which quickly became a gravy train.
Terrified politicians, who could not understand any of it, decided they could not buck these experts, & passed legislation, with no real idea of the ultimate effect the new laws would have.

Wiser heads started to see through the whole catastrophe, & force reevaluation, but the fight will be long, requiring as it does, large egos admitting errors.

We peasants will be paying for the stupidity of the elites for decades.

So now the EU & the world bank want the rest of the world, us, to pay for their excesses. Well no thanks, & Julia had better be bl00dy careful too. We have no desire to help her into the UN halls of power.

If they want to save the store now the inocent, but dumb, will be the ones to pay. They may just have to sell themselves out of it. That should work. I've got A$20,000 for a nice house on a Greek island, or the coast of Spain. That would give a little foreign exchange, if enough will buy. When you make bad investment choices, you have to take a hit some time.

Those who invested their career in global warming are fighting like hell to hold onto them. Same thing fellers, you rode the wrong horse, no reason you should not walk for the rest of your life.

Both groups need to get over it, & get out of the way.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 19 January 2012 1:41:27 PM
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The flaw in the argument that AGW came along just in time to help with the European financial problem ignores the fact that the climate research has been going on for decades and what is happening today is as was predicted over 30 years ago.

If financiers could have predicted they would be able to use this as an excuse years before the Euro collapse happened, they could have avoided the collapse and even the creation of the Euro itself.

If taxing greenhouse gasses is just a good financial scam, they would have held it back until times were better and public resistance would be at its lowest.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 19 January 2012 9:55:57 PM
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In truth I find no link.
I also am truly stunned at the thread and find it impossible to consider the proposition.
The EU/America western world got drunk on spending money they did not have.
On greed and profit.
Even selling things of no worth ,those derivatives.
Some European country's, hooked on growth, forgetting growth equals debt, take Ireland, became walking wounded, self inflicted wounds.
Alas, even now, the proposed bail out from the world monetary fund, if fully subscribed, will just put more debt on an already unplayable bill.
Current state of world finances is far too important, far too big a CRISIS to burden discussions about it,with such as this.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 20 January 2012 5:07:40 AM
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Rache & Belly,

Hasbeen never suggested a causative link between the two.
His suggestion was that some people in power made decisions that has
locked them into positions that are now unable to climb down from
without tremendous "Loss of Face".

Two different unrelated decisions have generated difficult positions.

The Euro is that a common currency cannot accommodate 17 different
economic policies and financial policies.

AGW policies are suffering because the real world temperature records
are showing trends lower than the lowest of the three IPCC projections.
The related carbon tax, being the wrong tax at the wrong time is the
other example of too much political capital invested in the wrong policy.

That is what I believe Hasbeen was saying.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 20 January 2012 8:04:37 AM
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Bazz, you say: "Hasbeen never suggested a causative link between the two."

Yes he did: "We peasants will be paying for the stupidity of the elites for decades." (sic)

@ "AGW policies are suffering because the real world temperature records
are showing trends lower than the lowest of the three IPCC projections."

Bazz, you continually conflate short term (natural) variation with long term trends. I don't understand why you do this but do it you do - it does not help.

@ "policy", there will never be a 'good' or 'right' time to adopt it given the long term consequences of not adopting it - the political election cycle can't deal with it. That is why the planet (in this 'globalised' world) needs extraordinary leaders to really lead - we have very few.
Posted by bonmot, Friday, 20 January 2012 8:57:25 AM
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Bonmot, your comment is illogical.
You said;
Yes he did: "We peasants will be paying for the stupidity of the elites for decades." (sic)

That is not a causitive link. It is just a comment on different decisions.

You said;
Bazz, you continually conflate short term (natural) variation with
long term trends. I don't understand why you do this but do it you do
- it does not help.

Continually ? When ?
12 to 14 years is not very short term. It shows no sign of imminent
turn up. It may be showing signs of a mini ice age some say.
I don't think anyone knows which way it will turn.
Even the AGW experts state that they do not understand the pause.

You said;
@ "policy", there will never be a 'good' or 'right' time to adopt it given the long term consequences of not adopting it

First to implement the required changes, you need to survive the
immediate time and faulty policies with enough resources and economy
to do the required work.

You forget that I was originally pointing out someone else's misinterpretation of Hasbeen's post.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 20 January 2012 9:51:21 AM
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its futile to correct delusioned opinion
like the rash quote...[""30 years"]

yep in the 70's thatcher wanted to kill big coal unions
so came up with global COOLING*...in time they found it wasnt cooling
but warming[when we had the ozone hole]...remember

then warming became change
global cooling..global warming...climate change
as each stride attempted to get advantages..get govt subsidy

well the money is gone..only the debt remains
but it wasnt till govt BAILED OUT THE MONEY CHANGERS
that the govt debt got too huge..

today we lend...to repay back fraud lending
that is ctiominal; debt..[odious debt]..and odious debt m,eabns you loose that you colludede to gain

so ya spent and lent
then the poor pay the rent

the con merchants got their govt cash
well its tinme THEY and the elites were mADE TO PAY THE RENT

[before they destroy it all]
govt needs to seize back the public assets styolen
for private proffit[when communism failed the people got shares

when capitalists failed
thyey got their debts paid off
and a nice nobus all round...

then we got all them family trusts
[getting special 15%..half tax..when the poor peasents
paying income tax..lol..on wage...[wage ISNT INCOME]

[income is money made with no value adding
to wit those gambklers gambling owith our pensions

bying dead kodac shares
and bonus to their mates

ie treason

heck now we going to let the banks quantive easing[devaluing yet further values..from our hyper inflating services..and ever increasing pri9ce of our commodities

as the thieves try to find a safe place
to hide their plunder..[govt gifted to criminals]

bah
SEIZE BACK THE PROCEEDS OF CRIME
no private lawyers..;only legal aid..
like us other poor mugs get[guilty pleaee not acceptred..WE MUST KNOW THE HOW WHO WHEN...!

revealed fully in higher courts

then jail..
like we mugs paying income tax..[and compulsory super]..get on wages

not one criminal..
[of the three latest *big collapses
is..*in jail]

for setting up
the money/service's/commodities
social security/legal/housing/finance governance system's

up..to fail
Posted by one under god, Friday, 20 January 2012 10:09:31 AM
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Bazz

@ "That is not a causitive link. It is just a comment on different decisions."
Circular argument (spin) - Hasbeen blames the cause on "elite's stupidity".

@ "Continually ? When ?"
Check your post history on climate change.

@ "2 to 14 years is not very short term."
Yes it is, very ... particularly with climate change and time series statistical analysis.

@ "It shows no sign of imminent turn up."
Again Bazz, learn something about trend analysis - check the trends for the last 20,000 years and compare to the last few hundred - then compare to the last 50.

@ "It may be showing signs of a mini ice age some say."oh puleeze Bazz, that stuff is found mostly on anti-science sites and so called 'denialist' blog-sites and 'right-wing' media shock-jock op-eds. Ok, Earth will experience other ice ages - check out Milankovitch Cycles, for example.

@ "I don't think anyone knows which way it will turn."
Science is about probabilities Bazz. Again ... time series trend analysis (with the error bars I may add). But hey, I agree ... a meteor can wipe life out as we know it, or you could spontaneously combust tomorrow.

@ "Even the AGW experts state that they do not understand the pause."
Just plain wrong, Bazz. Or most likely (like the so called 'climategate 1 and 2 emails) - you are taking things out of context.

Bazz, there will be a downturn in CO2 emmissions this year if we have another major downturn in so called "growth" - it will not be the end of the Earth. 'We' will "survive the immediate time and faulty policies with enough resources and economy to do the required work."
Nor will the downturn directly impact the long term temperature trends, despite any assertion to the contrary.

@ "You forget that I was originally pointing out someone else's misinterpretation of Hasbeen's post."
I'm pointing out your misinterpretations - they're probably not deliberate ... erroneous yes, but not deliberate.
Posted by bonmot, Friday, 20 January 2012 10:44:56 AM
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bonmot you are, even when disagreeing with me, a breath of fresh air.
Right now in Sydney a stage show is running.
Has run in other parts of the world and is extraordinary!
Just quoting the words of famous people, from their autobiography's.
I love a laugh and in my minds eye see this subject.
And the words of deniers making for huge fun ten years hence.
OUG mate, yours on this subject already have me rolling on the floor laughing,! stop it ! hard to get up.
Dogs sit on my chest thinking I have lost it.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 20 January 2012 2:29:53 PM
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Bazz, if you're still there:

This analysis may help;

http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/6/4/044022/fulltext/

It "confirms the strong influence of known factors on short-term variations in global temperature, including ENSO, volcanic aerosols and to a lesser degree solar variation ...

The rate of global warming due to other factors (most likely these are exclusively anthropogenic) has been remarkably steady during the 32 years from 1979 through 2010 ...

There is no indication of any slowdown or acceleration of global warming, beyond the variability induced by these known natural factors. Because the effects of volcanic eruptions and of ENSO are very short-term and that of solar variability very small (figure 7), none of these factors can be expected to exert a significant influence on the continuation of global warming over the coming decades ...

Annual averages of the result are shown in figure 8. This is the true global warming signal."

.

Thanks Belly
Posted by bonmot, Saturday, 21 January 2012 8:10:29 AM
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Now of course we all know that REAL scientists take a long term perspective, they don't get carried away by short-termisms.

We know that, because Bonmot told us so--see here:
<< Bazz, you continually conflate short term (natural) variation with long term trends. I don't understand why you do this but do it you do - it does not help>>

So forgive us if *some of us* are a little bit cynical when Botnet spruiking AGW theology should selectively chose the last 20-30 years as sure fire proof-- albeit after (his source) has averaged, pruned & polished the results to better reflect their pet hypothesis.


See here:
<< The rate of global warming due to other factors (most likely these are exclusively anthropogenic) has been remarkably steady during the 32 years from 1979 through 2010 ...>>

I mean if he had chosen a different time frame--like this:
http://tinyurl.com/6og8amu

or, this:
http://tinyurl.com/7m9f5ce

Or (heaven forbid!) even the graph attached here:
http://www.longrangeweather.com/global_temperatures.htm

Things would not have seemed so conclusive --so rosy and warm .And Belly wouldn't be shouting hallelujah brother...strange bed fellows indeed!
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 21 January 2012 6:08:53 PM
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Bommot etc,
I am not particularly interested in AGW for a couple of reasons.
The first is I don't think that it is as anywhere near as important
as our major threat, ie the relatively more imminent depletion of energy sources.
That alone will outweigh the panic warnings of the warmists.
It alone will result in less CO2 and when the IPCC incorporates the
more realistic quantities of fossil fuels into its projections then
that is the time to come back and look again at the AGW.

The second reason is that the earth has been warming since the Maunder
Minimum in the early 18th century. So no surprise there.
Maybe it is now reaching its "normal" temperature.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 22 January 2012 11:55:21 AM
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I agree Bazz, if more people (and politicians) realised that securing a ‘cleaner’ energy future was more important, then AGW (as a symptom) would be less problematic.

Nevertheless, some people are “interested in AGW” (unlike you) because that is their job. The problem with your “earth has been warming since the Maunder Minimum … maybe it is now reaching its ‘normal’ temperature” is the false premise (or assumptions) that the statement is made on.

For example: whatever set of events caused the Maunder Minimum in the first place has done a reversal and has then led to a global warming. Bazz, there are experts that study this stuff – they are not stupid. All the empirical data and observations to date (not computer modelling) show that the Earth’s energy imbalance cannot have been caused by natural variations alone. The enhanced greenhouse effect (non-natural variations a.k.a. AGW) is real.

See ‘Principles of Planetary Climate’ (2010) ISBN: 9780521865562

Anyway, as quoted before, ‘things aren't working like they used to ... The rupture between environmental values and economic growth has always been there and bodes ominously for the future of our planet ... We will also learn the bitter truth all over again that the economy always trumps the environment. Nothing will change until politics and how we live with nature itself changes."
Posted by bonmot, Sunday, 22 January 2012 8:05:22 PM
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