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The Forum > General Discussion > Julia Gillard Why?

Julia Gillard Why?

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It is my intention if we get the thread,to ask that question Why Gillard.
Yes it will bring the usual verbal tennis, some balls hit in to the wrong court, but may be worth while.
I ask those who do not vote conservative, to forget their views about Abbott.
Let us talk about Labors problems, yes Abbott, by his climb in the polls is one.
But with polling this bad? why Gillard?
Are Labor wounds self inflicted.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 2 October 2011 12:02:11 PM
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Yes.....
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 2 October 2011 2:29:40 PM
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Dear Belly,

Julia Gillard, Why?
And, are Labor's wounds self-inflicted?

Firstly, there are quite a few things
regarding, Julia Gillard, Why?

1) The nature of her ascension.
2) Her non-victory in the last election.
3) Her subsequent minority government.
4) Many voters have never regarded her as a legitimate PM.
5) Hostile media.
6) Lack of communication strategies.

Throw in some unpopular policies (like the carbon tax)
and it's no surprise that both the PM and the government
are struggling.

Add to that the fact that the Opposition has focused its
sights on destroying the government and what you get is
the current mess.
In the minds of many ordinary voters it appears that they're
beginning to think that Labor can't win the next election.

However, alternatively - there's - few people who
want Tony Abbott as the next Prime Minister.

Labor is aiding its problems by its lack of communication
strategies.

They should focus more on their positive
achievements. Pointing out things like the fact that
Julia Gillard's government has passed 185 pieces of
legislation (including 22 just recently). They should
call Abbott into account for every negative comment he
makes. And as Rob Oakeshott keeps telling the media -
"The government is governing well. Things are getting done."

However voters aren't told about the achievements -
all they hear is the focused negativity that is supplied
by the Opposition.

That has to change.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 2 October 2011 3:16:44 PM
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Poirot I agree, but know your Greens inflict much more.
My posts after 2007, maybe before did not praise Gillard.
Many greats came from Labors left, Gillard is not, never was, and never will be one of them.
I got it very wrong, as wrong as it gets, I truly never thought my party would elect her leader.
Once they did? I warned she would fall just as Rudd did, she will.
But again I got it wrong, very wrong, I said she could not be trusted, still true.
But that she would govern well, that was very wrong.
Why did she take the leadership.
Why does she still have it.
And will she be removed before an election?
Subjects I want to talk about.
And more.
She once had it over Abbott in debate, not after she got Rudd's job, any skill she had there is gone,forever.
Our first woman Prime Minister but how long before we get another?
If Kevin Rudd took over this day Labor would lead in the polls.
Yet she survives? I want to explore why and put a thought here in time lets see what others think.
Poirot, I should not do this, but in time you will understand, My party is in bad shape.
Its worst ever, BUT Friend know as hard as it is more dislike yours than even mine, it will always be true.
Glass houses and thrown stones, heard that before, constructive criticism is well come.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 2 October 2011 3:29:01 PM
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Lexi I agree! with every point.
But much can be laid at Julia's door, the hung election would have made Abbott suffer too if he had formed government.
First, I think, true, Gillard or some one, Wilkie? says if she goes the government does.
Many will trash me, but the policy's are ok, Labor wants to and MUST see Carbon tax, and NBN, mining tax, installed.
Even future conservative governments will not remove them.
Gillards history, not the news paper versions, is of interest, BUT once they thought well of her.
She was a Latham supporter I a rooster still hold that against her.
She supported Simon Crean ditto.
Fitzgibbon, remember him, China bribe/travel links?
As charming and bright as Pyne! her welded on supporter! another mark against him, his IQ is questionable.
If his dog leaves home the average IQ will drop ten points in his home.
Gillard at question time, Abbott will say Malaysian solution failed, she intent on who knows what will not even remind him and those watching it never got a start.
Rudd went because of the polling yet Gillard is TOXIC!
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 2 October 2011 4:15:32 PM
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Dear Belly,

You know more about the ins and outs then I do.
I only know what I read, and what I hear, and what's
presented in the media. I have to read between
the lines and try to get to as many sources as
possible before I make up my mind about things.

I still feel that Rob Oakeshott's right. We need to
wait to see the positive outcomes and then decide
prior to the election. We need to look at the policies,
check what's on offer, and then judge.

I'm so sick and tired of people talking about the so
called "budget surplus," that Costello left. No one
mentions the gaping big hole of the infra-structures that
were ruined as a result of all the cuts that were made
to achieve that surplus. The big hole in our
and the mess that had to be fixed as a result of
all the cuts. It's all very well to accuse someone of
spending, however - no one bothers to explain why the
spending was necessary, and how it came about that it
had to be done.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 2 October 2011 8:11:14 PM
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Labor are finished Belly.Find a new party.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 2 October 2011 11:24:50 PM
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Belly:"Why Gillard?"

Two words: Emily's List. The fact that 80% of the voting public think she's as useless as tits on a tomcat doesn't count when she's owned by the group that now owns the ALP from "outside" (since that means they can't be subject to Party discipline).
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 3 October 2011 4:43:17 AM
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Antiseptic one day we may have a coffee or beer, your anti woman stance interests me.
In fact I do not like any list, only the best should serve.
Arjay, time wasting post and very wrong.
Lexi, sorry yes I do, but trust me,no rainbow at the end of this track.
Gillard as I have said is from the left,in a party in truth trying to separate its self from the very left.
She has links as strong as steel with our worst failures.
Mark Latham Simon Crean, not a bit of the greatness of Falkner Lindsay Tanner, maybe some of Lathams dreams[our party's night mare] live in her
Given her perceived roll in Rudd's down fall, how did she come to rule?
Why has she, owner of worse polling still ruling?
Those waiting for the Australian electorate to awaken to Tony Abbott are self deceiving.
Focus not on Tony, people show they know him, by simple saying they would switch to Labor if Rudd ruled.
Antiseptic touches on a truth!
PC or not, like it or not, Australian Men are [Lady's are going to hate me] weary of controlling women.
And, sorry true love women! do not trust Gillard, every lie ever told by a deceiving woman is laid at her door.
She could not win an election if it was a raffle , and if she bought every ticket!
Some one would draw the cover.
So why Julia Gillard?
Is Labor intent on loss,is the thought Abbott will win then have a train wreck?
He will win if Gillard stays and based on his unfocused behavior will wreck, but is planned defeat an option?
My Government went in to power shackled by the view we could not be trusted in money matters.
I think, but my view is not shared we left that behind.
Some hidden thing is damaging our brand name.
Australian Labor Party supporters should not be kept in the dark.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 3 October 2011 6:12:35 AM
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Those who just chant the mindless Hysteria that Labor is Socialist, or has betrayed its roots and is Liberalism in another name, will rebut.
But in truth Labor and Liberals are constantly on the move.
Like cattle dogs at work they must to survive follow the voters/sheep.
Gillard left the left, but I am near sure her position is closer to Mark Lathams than anything.
In Cabernet, she must have something that impresses the chooks, even if it is a promise made the day she moved on Rudd that she would never face that fate.
What ever it is well hidden from most Australians.
Kevin 07 full of bright smiles joy and promise, just who stole the wheels.
No LABOR till death but just what is being hidden from us.
As it has shown its head I must rebut the idea Greens have any future or can replace Labor.
My youthful exuberance, thoughts that Communism or Socialism would both take over and be good, was as silly as fishing in a dry dam.
Half of Labors problem is the fear we are riding the greens horse.
In time Labor may split, in can happen, but never not ever again will any party share its power with the greens.
Voters if they dislike anything, or one. more than Gillard will never trust the greens.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 3 October 2011 6:31:58 AM
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The answer is simple belly.

She has dome an unworkable deal with a few and labor are now caught in no mans land.

Ever heard the saying, Enough Rope!
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 3 October 2011 6:32:59 AM
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Belly, it's by no means anti-woman, but the Trotskyite Feminists have gained an enormous amount of power within your party. Every female Labor Parliamentarian, with very few (possibly no) exceptions is a member, from the PM on down through the list. They expressly work to get women into the House, so of course they worked to get Gillard the top job and of course they're making sure she doesn't get rolled. All of the foofooraw about other motivations for keeping her there may be fine and dandy, but the numbers are with the Emily's listers and they vote across factional divides. the old power structures in the Party are becoming irrelevant, I'd reckon Belly. The unions don't have the membership any more to deliver rusted on votes and there are moves afoot to reduce their voting power internally as well. Once the factions lose the unions voting power they lose their own grip on the power base and guess who's standing in the wings, safely putside the Party rules?
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 3 October 2011 7:47:58 AM
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Antiseptic,

You really do have serious issues regarding women.
Perhaps that's as a result of the fact that your
experiences have been so negative
with the ones you've met in court. Therefore you
pre-judge all women accordingly.

I guess that's not surprising.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 October 2011 10:03:46 AM
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Yes Lexi, it must be that I hate women.

Don't dispute the facts though, do you?
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 3 October 2011 10:16:32 AM
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Lexi:>>," I'm so sick and tired of people talking about the so
called "budget surplus," that Costello left. No one
mentions the gaping big hole of the infra-structures that
were ruined as a result of all the cuts that were made
to achieve that surplus.<<

Lexi 80% of capital spent by governments on infrastructure is spent at a State level, not Commonwealth, during Costello’s time the taxes and GST money returned to the states grew on a YEARLY BASIS.

Labor has run the states for well over a decade, these Labor States introduced RECORD breaking fixed costs and tax charges over that decade and the only growth to be seen was in the money paid to consultants and other Labor business cronies.

Labor neglected the infrastructure in every state it governed for a decade or more depending on how stupid the electorate is, the residents of NSW having the lowest intelligence quotient of the lot, it took fifteen years for the imbeciles I share my air with to wake up, and the Liberal government that now rules us has decided to achieve through dormancy, if we don’t move or make a sound we can’t bugger up. With O’Farrell it is “you snooze, you win” achievement through the respite of all ineffectual cost blow out failed government projects that always need costly modifications after launch. We in NSW aint moving forward because O’Farrell is a motor with no gears.

Sister Lexi, look into the validity of the statements you make, be prepared to quote numbers to back up your assumptions.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 3 October 2011 10:28:04 AM
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SOG,

Three words - "do your research."

I'm not going to argue with you regarding
Costello - the information that I posted
I obtained from his own memoirs. However
there's plenty of articles on the subject
on the web. Google them for yourself.

Antiseptic,

Don't be so hard on yourself. Try to
see individual differences despite what
some of them may have done to you.

Cheers.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 October 2011 10:42:09 AM
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>>The total funds distributed to the states on the basis of equalisation increased from $22.9 billion in 1998-1999 to $30.2 billion in 2000-01 (a 32 per cent increase). The GST has also given the States access to a pool of funds which grows automatically with the level of activity in the national economy and more quickly than the previous financial assistance grants — between 2001-02 and 2007-08, the average annual increase in GST revenue was 7.9 per cent5 compared with an average annual increase of 3.9 per cent in financial assistance grants between 1993-94.<<
http://www.cgc.gov.au/__data/assets/file/0008/12995/75_Anniversary_Report_Website.pdf

Lexi this is data, it and the govt web page show a growth in funds from the Commonwealth to the States on a yearly basis while Costello was treasurer.

Your only rebuttal is that you read it in his memoirs is anecdotal, how do I know what you read or how you interpreted it. Just show me that the Commonwealth spends more on infrastructure than the States and show me a fall in revenue from the Commonwealth to the States during Costello's reign and I will concede the point.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 3 October 2011 11:12:12 AM
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AH HEM, sorry to butt in SOG, read the polling of late?
Seems to me AUSTRALIA should.
Midst the worst government in my life time ranting sits a truth.
If our left then right take any position Prime Minister left.
Labor would lead the polls.
Rechtub, follow learn.
Australia is not in love with Conservatives,they would be, over night, if Turnbull lead.
They share my distrust and dislike of Gillard.
A reason exists,but my party must over come it what ever it is.
These may be the reason.
Are we so gutless some do not wish to say I got it wrong?
Has she been given a promise even if the ship is cast on the beach.
Is it possible in fighting may be taking place to see the right replacement?
Not Crean please.
Has my party forgotten the great pain and misery its base NSW inflicted on us?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 3 October 2011 11:36:45 AM
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Belly if Gillard dropped the Carbon tax the balance would return to where it was, but Bob won't drop it, Labor has made some lifelong enemies from faithful friends this time around.

About what I was saying regarding Costello's brilliant financial stewardship, understand that it was about one point alone that I am grappling with Lexi over. My personal summation of Costello as treasurer is that under his watch Australian households credit debt grew by over 200% but the banks and industry had record NET profits. Whatever his balanced budgets did, they did not do anything for us.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 3 October 2011 12:14:50 PM
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belly,
As you know I am very cynical of both major parties, but the current government is the worst in my living memory and i intend to do all i can to be rid of them come next election. Dispite what you, Lexi, Susie and Poirot say, the Libs cannot be worse.

It is not just Gillard, but her big lie does not help, the Labor party puts too much emphasis on its leader and not enough on policy. You seem to go for pop star leaders over substance. Rudd was dropped because his polling dropped. Gillard replaced him "gee, our first woman PM, that must be worth a lot of votes" No reference to ability.

On the other hand Turnbul was dropped by the Libs because they disagreed with him on policy. See the difference?

I have seen a list of 50 Labor stuff ups (mine is not that long)and even this morning another emerged. NBN stuff up in Qld will delay roll out. Don't know extent yet but will come out. (add to list)

So having people, especially Ministers, with compedence is very important. That does not come from giving 'jobs for the boys'.
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 3 October 2011 12:55:41 PM
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Dear Banjo,

Just a few corrections.

Tony Abbott has been all too happy to embrace the
irrational rage and conspiracy theory in his quest
to tear down Julia Gillard and get his hands on the
office of PM.

It was Abbott who marshalled disquiet among the climate
denialist factions of the Liberal Party to challenge
Malcolm Turnbull in November 2009, when a deal with
Kevin Rudd on the CPRS had already been done. It's
Abbott who has regularly tweaked his message to appeal
to those who don't believe in climate change.

Believing the science? Protecting the environment?
Perhaps not burning quite so much coal? Hardly a radical
agenda.

But that's the problem with climate change and politics in
general in 2011. It's because of politicians like Abbott
that these issues have become so thoroughly politicised
that many conservatives don't
believe Australia's top scientists regarding issues like
climate change. They really do see a sincere attempt by
the government to embark on a moderate reduction in
Australia's greenhouse gases emissions as a kind of
conspiracy to withdraw liberties and increase taxation.

In short, people are irrationally angry and one of the key
stokers of the conservative rage has been the utter
political expediency of conservative politicians like the
leader of the Opposition and his cheerleaders in the media.

Drawn by ruthless ambition, Abbott in recent times has
entertained few qualms in his pursuit of the government,
to the degree where he has been willing to attack the
government with virtually every weapon available.

Much like the US Republicans, the Liberal Party in Australia
has recently seemed surprisingly content in advancing
positions that clash with the legacy of the Party's more
noble traditions of reason and prudence in a libertarian assault
on the foundations of government itself. Robert Menzies
would not approve of what's currently going on in the party.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 October 2011 1:54:46 PM
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Lexi,
Must dosagree. The wheels fell off the AGW wagaon when it was reveled that the scientists were fiddling the figures and since then it has only got worse for them by more revelations about the work of the IPCC and the wild claims about massive sea level rises, etc. Rudd dropped the ETS because he could see it was unpopular.

But Labors troubles is not only about the carbon tax, there is a host of other issues that have been badly handled as well. The ideology on 'illegal' boat people was put before common sence, as there was no need to do anything. Labor made a rod for their own back on this and other matters.

I could produce my list, but why go on, you won't conceed and Belly probably will not heed my words so my argument is wasted here.

I will keep my powder dry until an election is called.
Posted by Banjo, Monday, 3 October 2011 3:42:30 PM
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Dear Banjo,

Wise move.

I'll do the same.

There's no point in arguing when you
can see that you're not going to achieve
anything constructive. I guess politics,
religion, and possibly football are just a
few of the subjects
that bring out all sorts of emotive responses.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 October 2011 4:12:41 PM
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I have seen claims that are extraordinary, just today, here in OLO.
About this government, yours while not a view I share Bazz is well down the list.
Reality must play a roll, some of the comments are emotive and uninformed.
Some folk know little about subjects they comment on.
Now is it not true the polls show Abbott pounding Gillard.
Any one care to say not true.
The same polling, exactly, says if Gillard left/Rudd returned, Labor leads in the polls.
Why?
And why believe the polling that suits you but not the stuff you do not like?
I warn this country, while you look at Labor only,you ignore a party lost and straying from its life path.
Abbott is no leader his team may well win, if he leads then it is another train wreck.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 3 October 2011 4:39:19 PM
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http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3206984.html
An in depth look at the present and the past.
I have always watched the Author, even at times traveled the same paths.
Those who are, as I am, concerned about the reason Julia is surviving,against all odds, could do worse than read.
Ultimately this question has to be addressed.
Is the Australian Labor Party a party of its supporters or those elected to Parliament and other power groups.
EG Unions?
Is the voice of the rank and file only to be heard if power brokers agree with them?
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 4:14:32 AM
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Interesting article, but never mentioning the group that she founded that has over 30% of all ALP MPs as members and is actively and overtly working to increase that to a majority. All from outside the Party.

Perhaps Mungo is too wedded to the old factional setup to see it?
Posted by Antiseptic, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 4:24:53 AM
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If the assumption is made that Juliar's only uncompromising priority is to stay in office, and that the fortunes of the country, and even the labor party come a distant second, it is easy to explain:

1 The carbon tax lie,
2 The pokies tax,
3 The record billions spent on the detention policy,
4 The East Timor lie,
Etc, etc, etc,
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 8:49:56 AM
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Carbon Tax lie?

Nah. Things changed with a
minority government. But that's the problem
with climate change politics in 2011.
In large part because of politicians like
Tony Abbott - the issue has become so
thoroughly politicised that many conservatives really
don't believe Australia's top scientists. They really
do see a sincere attempt by the government to embark
on a moderate reduction in Australia's greenhouse gases
emissons as a kind of conspiracy to withdraw liberties
and increase taxation. Mr Abbott is one of the key
stokers of this issue, he and his cheerleaders in the
media and elsewhere would have us believe this nonsense.

The pokies tax? Please... this is not a tax. It's simply
an attempt to introduce a system of gambling control
which limits the amount gambled by problem gamblers in
a set period of time. The concern by the clubs is that
the system that will control the gambling limits will be
costly for the clubs to introduce. It will not prevent
gambling on pokies for the average gambler but will simply
limit the amount a problem gambler can lose in a day.
However this does not as I understand affect all other
forms of gambling other than pokies.

Billions spent on detention centres?
Yes - the Pacific Solution did cost the taxpayers
a fortune and did not stop the boats.
As we all know.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 10:35:39 AM
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Surprise, Surprise!
I have never known Mungo to write anything that reflects poorly on Labor, so things must be bad. But keep her there, she is our best chance to get rid of an incompedent lot.

She is a liar, who will say anything to get power. she lied about wanting Rudds job and then about the carbon tax, she claimed to be against a 'Big Australia' but we still have high immigration, promised to 'stop the boats' but has failed totally.

Her Ministry are incompedent and have botched most everything. Now there are botches with the NBN, I reckon many more to come.

Then there is her promise to Wilkie about the pokies. Interesting to see how that plays out. She claims she will honour that promise. We will see! If she does it will cost her far, far more votes than she gains. The cost to change the machines apparently is high and no garantee it will work as intended either. The addicted gamblers will find a way around it. Simply go to another pub/club and continue.
So could be another imposed massive cost that fails,in outcome.

No, keep her there, she is doing great!
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 10:58:21 AM
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Juliar never said that she had no intention of implementing a carbon tax, or that she did not have the policy to do so, She promised that there would be no carbon tax under the government she lead.

The hung parliament is an excuse for breaking the promise, but the promise was broken.

Even before the election, the carbon tax was unpopular, and to get into power, she solemnly promised no carbon tax. She had the choice to keep a promise or power.

The 30 pieces of silver is the carbon tax.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 11:17:24 AM
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lexi,
You said. "Billions spent on detention centres?
Yes - the Pacific Solution did cost the taxpayers
a fortune and did not stop the boats.
As we all know".

That lexi, is a fabrication, a distortion. You don't have to make things up, just be honest.

The Pacific solution did stop the boats and the Howard government is given credit for that.

The Rudd government put the people smugglers back in business with their changes and closing down of Nauru. Encouraging thousands to make the journey to Aus. About 200 have died thus far in trying, so their blood is on Labors hands. That is compassion for you.

How much has this government spent/wasted in the last few years?
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 11:32:44 AM
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I am writing slowly so a couple can keep up.
This thread, one I started describes the failure that is Gillard.
It is my view, strongly held, the need to invent lies and half truths is not needed
POKER TAX? gee! cash for clunkers got a run yesterday, not one cent was spent it never started, it however supports my view Gillard is a Goose.
A quick dip, in the brand new as yet unused London Olympic pool, by one contributor would instantly turn it to mud!
Do my Friend Lexi as you wish, but that person is not here, in a thread that I take his side, to talk.
Rest with this thought.
Abbott/Gillard both are not going to be around as leaders much longer.
Weird but true they, two failures are the only reason each survive!
PS Gillard lost the Sydney grand final, its the only mud they have not thrown yet!
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 11:53:41 AM
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Banjo,

Things are so bad for labor that lefties are having to dream up a fantasy world for themselves, where Labor is the champion of the poor, and a sound hand at the till.

In this dream world, Abbott is an evil dragon, who regularly beats his wife and daughters, Julia Gillard always meant to introduce a carbon tax and said so, the pacific solution never worked, and the Malaysian solution was welcomed by the boat people who happily queued to get to the well protected paradise.

Reality is not their strong suit.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 11:56:24 AM
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Dear Banjo,

A couple of things.

Broken election promise?

All parties promised things before the last election.
But the electorate rejected a Gillard Government
and an Abbott Government and gave the nation - eventually -
a coalition of Greens, Labor and Independents.

Surely it was obvious during the horse-trading after
the polls had closed that whoever led whatever coalition
was formed would be unable to do everything they could
do in a majority government.

The conservatives and the Murdoch media continually
saying "broken promise" does not make it so.

As for the so called "carbon tax," arguments. The closer
you look at Abbott's "direct action," the sketchier
it appears. Much of this policy is based on untested
and scientifically dubious assertions that as much as
85 million tonnes of carbon can be locked up in
Australian farmers' soil. And because direct action relies
on government spending to achieve pollution reduction, its
obviously subject to other budgetary considerations
each and every year.

In other words, to pay for this uncosted policy, an
Abbott government would either have to cut
government spending in other areas, or raise taxes.
Mr Abbot has steadfastly refused to explain which it
will be.

The Pacific Solution? Australia spent about a
billion dollars processing 1637 boat people on Manus
and Nauru (Do the maths: it's a horrifying $600,000
per head). Some rotted on the islands for more than
five years; some went mad waiting; but in the end,
the largest single group of people fed through the
Pacific Solution ended up where they were always
heading: Australia.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 1:18:40 PM
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Dear Banjo,

Wouldn't it be good if we could discuss
Australian politics in the interest of
Australia and its people, instead of
constantly arguing about Party politics
and throwing accusations.

Forget about Labor, Liberals, Nationals,
and Greens and follow the example of the
Independents whose interests are Australia
for the Australians.

Now that would be something worthwhile doing!
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 1:30:43 PM
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Banjo,
Lexi is correct - depending on what you think "stopped the boat means".

If you think it means that the boats stopped arriving, you're right - just like total movements slowed worldwide during that period when it looked like the Taliban were beaten.

However if you think it means that the boats stopped leaving Indonesia soley because of the Pacific Solution you're wrong.

Boats still actually left Indonesia - it's just that they were intercepted by our Navy and towed back into Indonesian waters. This annoyed the Indonesians immensely and Rudd paid the price later on with the Oceanic Viking episode.

Towing is no longer feasible because they scuttle their own boats and have to be rescued. The Sri Lankan boat people situation was also something that Howard didn't have to face.

Beyond mere spin and fanciful wishful thinking, exactly how is a restoration of the "Pacific Solution" going to overcome this?

It's like Moir's cartoon in the SMH last Friday - Abbott thumping the table and asking "But apart from a Nationwide Health Scheme, the NBN, Trade Education Cetres, a National Curriculum, School buildings, paid maternity leave, a world-leading economy, record unemployments and record spending on infrastructure, what has the Labor Government done for Australia?"
Posted by wobbles, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 2:51:20 PM
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Lexi,

Is this a government that is lead by Gillard or not?

Did she, or did she not promise "there will be no carbon tax under the government I lead."

However you try and spin it, Juliar made a promise, and broke it. There is no wiggle room, as the promise was clean and clear. Whatever you think or say, it is clear to the rest of Australia.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 3:33:52 PM
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The thread wanders, it does not matter, but I started it.
My intention was to ask why?
Why did Gillard get the call.
Why did Rudd fall, why do polls show IF RUDD lead Labor would too.
Further I want to know why Gillard stays.
When will she go, and let my thought that if one leader go,s the other follows soon after get air.
A game is in play here, bitter provocation.
It is not attempting to answer the questions I put up.
I except that, and let the thread flow, in any direction.
But except this too, the insulting anti Labor rhetoric, is nothing to be concerned about.
Uniformed and bitter swipes such as those are proof of pain, an understanding and a fear!
That the ALP may just get its act together and dump the lost lady.
Abbott like some who support him, runs on bile, do not feed that.
Answer me this, again and again I start threads like this,show me the one single thread from our counterparts here such as mine.
I revue Labors faults in hope of better those ignoring conservatives have no wish for improvement.
I read , sometimes in laughter the posts of the lost but others from that side of the fence are worth watching.
Not all are children's story book writers.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 3:36:33 PM
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Dear Belly,

Ignore the BS from the Opposition and their
cheerleaders. No thinking person is buying it.

Labor's got its faults but heck they're much
better than the other mob.

Take a look what's
happening at present with the government's
attempt to reform our taxation system for
the good of everyone including future generations.
Everyone's been invited to participate and give
their inputs. Now this is a great opportunity.

And guess what - the Opposition won't be taking
part in any of this. Their contribution will be
zip. Nada.

Geez Louise. And some people have the
nerve to wonder why some of us wouldn't give
these no-hopers a leg up. All they're good for
is condemnation and criticism - but when it comes
to actually doing something constructive - its
as always a - no show.

Why would anyone vote for
these do nothing people.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 5:58:51 PM
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Lexi I understand, started this thread for all the above reasons.
And true belief, Labor is not in the shape some claim.
Gillard has to go, she will go.
But I too know mud sticks.
Do not under value conservatives understanding of that.
Today powerful media reports this.
Labor is buying smokes for refugees.
Power is not just the property of Murdock.
Check who owns 9 and poker Machine infested casinos.
Truth is even in our prisons some minor wages are paid.
And you are free to spend as you will.
Refugees learn English get paid, not much, and some spend it on cigarettes.
watch another thread start TWISTING this.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 7:03:23 PM
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Belly:

...The problem with the Labor party is its lack of stability evidenced by multiple policy failures and impetuous decision making. It is un-nerving and politically destabilizing. Our political leaders are trusted to be at minimum intelligent.

...Labors hap-hazard term with Gillard at the helm is one of the most immature examples of political rule witnessed by myself ever: I mean to say, its like their all on drugs...are they having orgies out in the back rooms too: It would not surprise me! (I think they need a visit from the drug squad at parliament house)!

...She may not be responsible for all the calamities of Labors rule, but she must take responsibility for a calamitous term as the leader.
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 7:28:15 PM
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Dear Dan,

Amazing though isn't it that so much has been
achieved under her leadership as wobbles
pointed out earlier. A world leading economy,
Record unemployment, Records spending on
Infrastructure, A Nationwide Health Scheme, the
NBN, Trade Education Centres, A National Curriculum,
Paid Maternity Leave, et cetera.

Apart from trying to destroy Labor what's the Opposition
contributed?
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 8:04:41 PM
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Dear Lexi:

...I so love to be called “dear Dan”, I feel so underserving! Let us start at the top of your list;
... ... ... ... ...

World leading economy: Inherited.

Record unemployment: Unchanged significantly.

Record spending on infrastructure: PPP meaning overseas investment repaid with higher charges such as tolls and higher charges for E/L and water! (Great help I don’t think)

National health scheme: Not universally acceptable to all states.

NBN: Highly debatable benefits with untested financial outcomes.

Trade education centres: Continuation of a Howard “folly”.

National Curriculum: Out of priority as educational imperative to successful teaching.

Paid Maternity Leave: Further excusing the real need for women to be engaged in the workforce as the imperative it has become! Etc. Etc.

...Game set and match...
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 9:29:08 PM
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Dear lexi:

Oh...and now I learn from Aunty, Julia and Waynie-Boy have inaugurated the "Mad Hatters Tax Party"...without the Rabbit of course! Lets not add credibility where credibility may be damaging!
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 9:39:12 PM
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Dear Bob Katter and Pauline...Please hurry!
Posted by diver dan, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 9:42:54 PM
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Belly,
You started this thread asking a question about Julia Gillard.

I contributed by stating where I considered Labor was/is going wrong.

Lexi disagreed with my view and made a few fundamental errors which need correction, which I did and ceased discussion with her.

You posted a link to article by Mungo Maccallum who, to my knowkedge, has never written anything critical about Labor. That in itself is worth commenting on.

Lexi posted grossly incorrectly, whether deliberately or not, claiming the Pacific Solution did not stop the boats coming. That untruth definately had to be corrected and I notice that she has not put anything forward to support her view. Maybe just romancing?

Both you and Lexi seem to have an obsession about Abbott because he opposes, which is what an Opposition leader does. He opposes just as Labor did when in opposition. Surely you recall that.

Why is Abbott effective and getting lots of media attention? Simply because this incompedent government has given him so much to critisize. There is a whole list of things botched and possibly more to come with the NBN and pokies deal.

If you start a thread and it does not go the way you want, you can't blame others for that. I have started threads that did not go as i prefered, but that is the way it goes sometimes.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 10:03:13 PM
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wobbles,
Our border protection had to stop towing the boats during the previous governments era as they were being scuttled by the illegals then. That was not new for Rudd to contend with.

The pacific solution plus the TPVs stopped the boats from coming.

Because the illegals can push this government around (remember the Oceanic Viking) and they no longer believe what this government says, the TPVs and Pacific solution may no longer work and further tough measures may be required.

But the boats must stop, which this government is incapable of doing.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 4 October 2011 10:32:29 PM
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Sure, Gillard has her Carbon Tax monkey just like Howard had his "non-core" promises, Keating had his L.A.W. Tax cuts and even Abbott had his "Medicare safety net rock solid guarantee". So what's new?
Politicians lie if they are ALP but adapt to changing circumstances if they are LNP?

What I don't get is why Abbott wants to give tens of billions of taxpayer dollars to polluters to fix up a problem he doesn't even believe exists and also admits won't have any effect.

It's just like paying smokers to quit but more like the Tory corporate welfare machine cranking up again.

Sounds exactly like political hypocrisy and opportunism to me.

Then again and as he said, I'll wait until he puts it in writing before I believe it.
Posted by rache, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 1:08:19 AM
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Rache;

...Unlike Howard and Gillard, Abbott is not a layer (I believe). But surely he would not be incautious enough to commit promises to paper.
So concluding, he will continue to vaporize his promises along with the political elite.
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 7:28:04 AM
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Banjo you often share my views, but it is the substance of your last post that I find unacceptable.
That court ruling, in my view,over turned every past and present way of of shore processing.
It is said by exactly the same people who informed Howard WILL inform Abbott it can no longer be used.
WE are also told, NOT ONE person processed then,WAS FORCED TO RETURN HOME.
Some did no one was forced.
The court ruling, for me, HIGHLIGHTS A FEAR left/green lawyers/judges are increasingly, over ruling government/majority wishes.
Abbott farms discontent, he is riding high on Gillard being a failed leader,and his insistence on saying no.
His wife may well be weary of this too.
Overnight, we, you and I can have our wishes Abbott's plan or Gillards.
If he is convinced hers will fail why not let it?
He like her is hurting us all.
stop the bleeding boats, stop them now, stop hurting us all over bickering rabbits.
Look at other contributions, they not you,are my main target.
But know the seeds of a devision that will not heal are being sown today by Abbott
Gillard will go soon but how do we forget the one sided rubbish, the invented story's of failure that your side one day will praise Labor for.
NBN Carbon tax mining tax.
Banjo! aging population generous baby leave and Abbott says no new tax?
Last open those eyes I did not support Julia Gillard,I know she is a failure and INSIST my party dump her.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 7:53:49 AM
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belly,
I agree, Gillard is a disaster for Labor, who amongst some probable future leaders would now line up for the job. The smart ones will sit back and wait for Abbott to make a hash of it and then have a go. With the impending hiding to nothing, only Rudd has the ego to think he could save the sinking ship. But he is not popular amongst his colleagues and he was dumped because of poor polling. Would a honeymoon last till the next election?

Go back and read my first post on this thread. I still think Labors problems stem from putting up show ponies as leaders instead of good solid hard working draughts and having well thought out policy to back him/her up.

I do not particularly like Abbott but he will get there by default. Costello would have been far better, but he lacked guts and pulled out in opposition. He also introduced the 'baby bonus' which I hold against him as we will now never be rid of it. Turhbull wanted the stupid ETS, so he and his banker mates could cash in and he made us change to those funny light bulbs!

Please do not keep refering to the Libs as 'my mob', they are not. They just appear to be the best alternative right now. Don't harp on Abbott for Labors woes, look within your own mob.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 8:49:05 AM
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Almost every word could have been mine, I am aware of your first post.
Now find me a single quote that could even infer I think Abbott is Labors problem.
Look deeper at my insistence on underlining Gillards links to Latham.
Mad Mark,remember I was once a follower, had ideas unlike the read your kids a book junk.
His maiden speech, his web site had great promise.
Our Prime Minister,one of three, the rest traveled as fleas do, shared a vision.
Crean, Latham, Gillard, they owe my party much.
A LABOR GOVERNMENT, always is up against its own left, power and influence of ALL MEDIA and such as this troika.
Banjo I true, think a third of my party in the house could best serve it by leaving.
And half of the opposition and any one from the miners party sorry, nationals too.
Rudd has learned his lesson if Shorten can not or will not take the job let Rudd do it.
A man like me, rude and crude but honest should step up in the Parliament and remind gooses such as that leader of the Labor left, he is even more disliked than Bob Brown.
Gillard will go and soon, she can never come back from here.
If Labor lets Abbott go before acting we are bound for defeat massive defeat.
Why is she still there?
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 12:14:22 PM
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Standing, fear stricken in the spotlight of opinion polls is not the answer
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/labor-party-facing-crisis-says-graham-richardson/story-e6frf7jx-1226159263342
Trying to sell Gillard will not do it either .
History will take a closer look at those holding the reigns of power today in the ALP.
I remind them, look not at Abbott but at your self, Gillard must have a firm hand on a particular part of the body of some,who seem content to let the slide continue.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 2:20:05 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/national/turnbull-calls-for-leadership-on-climate-20111005-1l9qg.html
This is one of three live threads, that denigrate Australian Politicians.
Some we are told, even by me in the case of Gillard, are of little use.
Some , well the list is long and some times quite true.
Of some.
It is my view, both party's are infested, not controlled but infested, with useless types.
And that we, all of us, share the blame for current thoughts about them.
For me, an unbiased honestly held view, no one in the Parliament is worse than conservatives front bench.
Here however is a link, do not throw insults at this man, not my choice to be PM.
But he is a statesman, he will lift his party out of the gutter.
And that offers trouble for my party.
As we nestle in the sink hole of a hung Parliament, wallow in the mud of self interest,know after leadership changes, on both sides,we will see this hole filed and repaved.
And wounder why we ever let it be dug.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 6 October 2011 3:24:23 AM
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Here's a piece by Jenny Mcalister, the ALP's national president (what happened to Blight?)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/members-want-labor-to-stand-up-for-its-values/story-e6frgd0x-1226159585227

She says:

"One senior union leader was reported yesterday as saying that if a progressive woman were elected as Labor's national president she would have only minimal sway over party policy because "the moderates" in the Labor Party still had the numbers.

Factional leaders might want to worry less about a progressive woman winning the presidency and more about the sentiment of thousands of members and supporters who want a party that stands up for its values and moves towards grassroots campaigning.

Such sentiments are a direct challenge to party powerbrokers who exercise disproportionate influence with little scrutiny."

Speaking of "powerbrokers who exercise disproportionate influence with little scrutiny", I'll just point out that Jenny Mcalister is a long-term member of Emily's List and received support from the group in 2001 to stand as an MP.

http://workers.labor.net.au/87/news83_list.html

"EMILY's List - the financial and political support network - gives extra support, over and above Labor party assistance, to feminist Labor women candidates who support the organisation's pro-choice, pro-equity principles.

Ms Kirner is National Co-convener of the List, which hosted the dinner in Sydney on Monday. Also featured at the dinner were Ros Kelly, former Federal minister, and Sandra Nori, NSW Minister for Small Business and Tourism.

Eight women, so far preselected to contest NSW Federal seats, were introduced at the function. Sharon Greirson will be contesting the safe seat of Newcastle and Jenny McAllister will face Larry Anthony, who has a 0.1% margin in Richmond."

So that's the Party President, the incoming Party President, the PM and every other ALP woman all members of Emily's List.

Is anyone starting to see a pattern?

By the way, Ms Mcallister doesn't list her membership of Emily's List in her Wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_McAllister
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 6 October 2011 4:50:30 AM
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Oh yes, Emily's List has 3 candidates running for ALP President in the upcoming elections, according to them.

I thought they weren't a faction?
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 6 October 2011 8:07:49 AM
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Anti sit please.
No doubt I will get a kick in a soft spot but I agree.
With every word.
Even the full stops.
More of the female vote can be won by haveing a hot male leader.
The upwardly mobile suited just Gay enough Labor males who pushed this best serve by leaving.
The best, sex not important, should get every nomination.
I will personally bet that part to be kicked, Gillard has turned more Labor women in to conservatives and greens than any ten others.
Conservatives have harnessed this problem, they would never consider such a list.
Who would? and risk another Bronwyn or Julie Bishop?
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 6 October 2011 1:57:25 PM
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Dear Belly,

You know more about the political scene here in
this country then I do. I'm coming to all this
rather late in the piece - politics really wasn't
my scene until relatively recently.

Anyway, as I've mentioned in the past one of my
favourite political commentaries came from
DEnnis Pryor in his satirical dictionary of
Australian politics, "Political Pryorities: How
to get on top of Australian Politics."

Regarding - "Women in Politics,"
Pryor has this to say:

"Under the guise of 'useful experience,"
women are given every opportunity to stand
for unwinnable seats at elections.
Those who get into Parliament find it difficult
to become Ministers or to get into Cabinet.
In spite of incessant rhetoric about equal
opportunity the mass of male Parliamentarians
find it difficult to equate women with positions
of power. Many talented women are now seeking
to enter politics via influential positions in
the public service, where discrimination is waning,
rather than through the tedious and hypocritical
process of preselection and elections."
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 October 2011 5:46:09 PM
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Lexi:"women are given every opportunity to stand
for unwinnable seats at elections."

From http://workers.labor.net.au/87/news83_list.html (in 2001)

"Sharon Greirson will be contesting the safe seat of Newcastle and Jenny McAllister will face Larry Anthony, who has a 0.1% margin in Richmond."

"Unwinnable seats" dear? You're funny. In a self-deluded sort of a way.

Belly, I'm pleased to see that you have the courage to examine this despite the efforts of a couple of the usual suspect entitlement feminists to pretend it's not happening.

The ALP has become owned by two groups that don't even belong to it and they're both owned by middle-class women who work in the public service and think the world owes them whatever they demand: the Greens and Emily's List. They're welcome to it, but it doesn't bode well for the quality of future politics in Australia.
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 7 October 2011 1:59:16 AM
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I know Sharon, she is a warrior not from my faction but has guts.
Fact is ALP,look at the Parliament,has more women than any party in history in the house.
And fine female ministers.
So Lexi that bloke is dated.
But just why is the list needed?
And why do we CONSTANTLY send poor performers to Parliament?
We sent a good man, in trouble because he loved and stood by his wife Dela Boscas wife?
She had no chance! of not being a failure!
Branches did not want her PARTY DID! to REWARD John!
Dela Bosca is a good man but she should not have got a start cleaning the place.
I am not destroying party,JUST DEMANDING RENOVATION.
In time,the answers will come, why Gillard, why is she still there,why not party first.
WHY DID THEY DUMP RUDD it can not be said his polling hers is worse.
It never will be those in charge reveling in power they rightfully should use only for those who gave it to them.
But the voters who are owed these answers and action we all, including them, know will take place no matter what they say.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 7 October 2011 5:56:24 AM
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Belly:"that bloke is dated"

Well the book WAS written way back in 1988, but then, let's face it, the whole Feminist paradigm relies on taking examples from other places and times to pretend that women are disadvantaged here and now.

It's not even dishonest, it's self-deluded.
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 7 October 2011 6:05:56 AM
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By the way, Belly, Grierson doesn't mention her affiliation with Emily's List and the role it played in getting her elected in her biography either.
Posted by Antiseptic, Friday, 7 October 2011 6:08:36 AM
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I will expand anti on Sharon she earned her place, against all comers all sex's she is worth her weight.
Lexi forever is my mate, I do not see her as feminist.
Now not going to expand, but a bit of hurt in my past, and a lot with my brothers, not unlike you seem to have.
We, you and I will get the verbal kicking but the truth is.
DARE I? a good loyal woman is treasure beyond any.
A bad using untrustworthy one, just like bad men they exist, in my view in number higher than ever before.
I think no job should be reserved for any sex or race not one.
And that some of the best workplace managers I worked with are women.
But yes out dated the ALP has put dorks in the house male and female for? friendship and loyalty to others who had no right to gift them.
Gillard? her chances of coming back from here are mine of winning the golden casket, and I do not have a ticket.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 7 October 2011 11:48:29 AM
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Antiseptic,

My previous post citing Dennis Pryor's
opinion of "women in politics," was
done as a bit of humour - tongue-in-cheek.
You know - satire.

A pity you didn't get it.

Ah well. You are the same old sausage.
All fizz and sputter. Can't help yourself.
You probably don't mean to demean all
women. You just feel an obligation.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 7 October 2011 4:56:01 PM
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We care well in to the thread,even I can not answer its questions.
I can however speculate.
Kevin Rudd looked most unlike our two leaders in his interviews about the silly kid in Bali.
Kevin looks statesman like.
He would have been put back in charge by now, if those who unseated him thought as all good men should party first.
Bill, my great White hope, Shorten, seems not to have the numbers yet.
He is back on the ABC on Monday.
A path well worn by Rudd on his way to the top.
I remain troubled.
I have no other way, for me party first is the only path.
WHY?
Reform of my party must,sorry brothers and sisters, break down right wing union control.
My faction my past my future but my fear too.
Middle Australia is unimpressed and like me unaware of your motives
Posted by Belly, Friday, 7 October 2011 7:10:43 PM
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Belly,

I hope they bring back Rudd again, but not for the same reasons you do.

The coalition has been deliberately pumping up Rudd because he was so divisive in the caucus and an easy target. If Rudd gets in Labor is finished.

If he comes in as leader, the focus will change back onto him, and his ratings will do what they did previously, and plummet.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 October 2011 3:50:35 AM
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I recommend a read of the Australian this morning.
It is a mischief making rag,always will be.
But try an open mind this morning.
Read its story on Rudd.
Give it and my views some thought.
Then yours to even the mix.
Answer then in your views not mine these questions.
Why did Labor dump Rudd, no not what you hear why?
What has Rudd said that makes this mornings story look true/false.
Now Julia Gillard,has she been good for the ALP/Australia?
Why would some not want Rudd back, is it fear he would get even??

Any chance? at all? if you owned that newspaper you would want to use that power to push your views?
And if you a wealthy beyond dreams person did that would you not be conservative.
Rudd will try he driven by others in the party is not prepared to die wondering.
But he too is not pushing but being pushed.
Because Labor already is finished.
Some have thrown the last life saver in to the water.
Rudd like Turnbull is rich they came to make a difference .
WATCH THIS SPACE.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 October 2011 4:51:39 AM
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Belly,

It is not what he said, but what he has done. He is going around visiting schools etc at home, more on the campaign trail than foreign minister. Juliar said the day before Rudd was axed that she had no ambitions and supported him 100%.

Rudd was axed because he stuffed up the mining super tax, the boats, and ran the country like his own fiefdom.

Rudd might get a popularity spike, but cannot save labor. The reason the coalition are pushing him is that the real contenders are shorten and others, whilst Rudd is a disaster. Ask yourself why the coalition has not been slagging him, whilst the expenditure leaks etc are coming from Labor.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 October 2011 7:47:45 AM
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The Prime Minister holds the role only with
the support of Parliament. In the party political
system of this nation, that means the support of
the parliamentary members of your party.

John Howard always enjoyed that support.
Kevin Rudd lost it. In truth his support base was
always narrow. Rudd came from Queensland rather
than the traditional power bases of ALP politics
in NSW and Victoria. He was never truly one of them the
way that Paul Keating was. And he also never courted
the back benchers and others to gain a stronger
support base. He was also rude, and arrogant and that
did not endear him to his colleagues.

Accusations of the "faceless factional men," axing him are not
quite accurate. They're not faceless for a start and
have been named as Mark Arbib, Karl Bitae, David
Feeney Bill Shorten, and neither are they a purely
factional group. In the end, Rudd proved so unpopular
among his colleagues that he didn't even stand against
Julia Gillard, knowing he had no chance of success.

I doubt very much whether anything has now changed and whether
Rudd has any chance of being welcomed back by these same
people as PM. He did not survive his first term in office.
He certainly should not be given a second chance at it.
The man hasn't changed - and neither have his colleagues.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 October 2011 10:35:11 AM
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cont'd ...

Oops sorry for the typos. It should read Karl Bitar.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 October 2011 10:37:43 AM
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Lexi that post was very well informed!
My regards, lets confirm it.
The first too you mention are Labors problem, they stuffed up I know one personally he was once better.
Bill Shorten can not be well, he is the man we thought Rudd was.
Rudd earned his enmity by standing on his shoulders.
See few remember Rudd once fought tooth and nail with Big Bill Ludwig, while in QLD state government.
Now that quote faceless men.
DATED TOO! once we in fact belonged to them, the insult was deserved, way back before 1972!
Big fella took them on, we see the insult used but it is not true.
FACTIONS exist! if not we would never again win office.
This behind the birth of the greens!
See my faction, once drove our victory's, will again, after we get the stains from the floor of the NSW blood bath, and the stains preceding that from filth and self interest.
center unity/right faction.
Left ask us to insult two thirds of the population with rubbish and would win, if we did not number up against them.
HENCE greens.
Rudd is as my combative Friend says working to return his visits ,well planed, are by invitation from the holders of the first seats to fall next election.
And yes his power base was/is such he won over the public never the party.
But know if returned he has every chance of take us from zero to hero again.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 October 2011 12:05:03 PM
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Dear Belly,

I guess we'll have to wait and see what
happens. I frankly can't imagine Rudd
wanting to come back - nor for his colleagues
to want him back. But in politics - who can
predict anything with any certainty.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 October 2011 1:37:52 PM
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Lexi it is in his DNA he knows no other way but to try.
I asked once why he turned up at ALP conferences right behind Kim,even country ones.
It became clear he was doing what he is now campaigning.
Being pushed and pulled but quite willing to take the ride.
He must surely be turbo charged at the prospect of vindication.
IF he made a return, remember his power base is outside the party, he would hardly blow it.
Just returning, nothing else takes 10% from Abbott's polling.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 October 2011 4:28:23 PM
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Dear Belly,

You know much more about all this then I do
so of course I hear what you're saying.
I just can't understand that a leader who
had campaigned so well in 2007 and had led
Labor to victory after the wilderness years
of John Howard's government wasn't allowed to
survive his first term. And that's why I'm having
difficulty in getting my mind around the fact
that those same people (his parliamentary members)
who didn't give him the support previously would
now offer him support. Not sure that I'd accept
it if I was Rudd. But then I'm no politician.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 October 2011 4:38:37 PM
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cont'd ...

Belly, before I leave this thread I'll give
you something else to think about...

"None of us knows what she stands for
Though politically savy she is
She's our first lady Prime Minister
Who's not a Mrs, but Ms
Tony Abbott may find her peculiar
That's par for the course for him
But when all's said and done
Most voters agree that voting for him
Would be grim!"
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 October 2011 5:38:17 PM
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cont'd...

Dear Belly,

One more thought.

I feel that it would not be wise for Rudd to challenge
Gillard before the next election. He should show good
grace and allow Gillard to run her full term and when
she loses the election to challenge the leadership
and thus easily win the following election. That would
be a good move to win the support of the electorate.

That's what I would do.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 October 2011 5:44:35 PM
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Lexi sorry thought this was the thread the pest ruined.
I have watched our Julia and a whole stable of future prospects on both sides for a long time.
She has done more 360,s that a hot rod on a sandy beach.
No sorry you are quite wrong, this time.
Her defeat in an election WILL BE MASSIVE.
Too bad for any return the election after.
Damaging the party in a whole generations eyes.
ANY other leader can cut that/maybe even win.
IF Turnbull takes over first,she will have single figures of support.
Rudd if he runs, will do it/intends to before the election.
A hint, it is my view after current and planned bills pass Gillard will rest on her wins.
Announcing she is stepping down, for the good of the party.
Leaving the crowds cheering her bravery.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 9 October 2011 5:49:43 PM
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Dear Belly,

As I said earlier - I bow to your expertise in
this matter. You know better than I when it comes
to ALP politics. I watched the "Insiders" this
morning - and many people are saying that
Rudd is definitely positioning himself for a
take-over. So I'll just shut up and wait and
see what happens next.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 9 October 2011 8:31:34 PM
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Lexi a few posts ago I had a shot at Shadow Minister and the Australian.
I knew some substance was in that papers story.
But also it was mischief making, it is driven by the self interests of its boss.
Strangely, we all off us, over look this fact, that mans power has put both party's in power and removed both, it is not always against Labor but is tilted away always.
But Rudd is running,see the Australia this day.
It is going to be interesting.
Some thing is hidden from us.
Bill Shorten is again on ABC tonight, he may be waiting.
Julia failed, she was bound to, do not under value her team.
Crean, may try,and if he won be worse than her, she rides a horse with plans to turn Labor in to some thing else,it has three legs!
Let me asure you Lexi I am no insider my understanding is a by product of my passionate wish to learn.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 10 October 2011 6:34:30 AM
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Dear Belly,

I don't have much time this morning to discuss
anything further. My daughter-in-law has made
me a grandmother again. She gave birth to a baby
boy at 4am this morning and I'm looking after
my other grandson. So I've got to go.

I'll be gone for a couple of days.

Take care,
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 10 October 2011 8:43:26 AM
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Congrats to both Lexi wounderful times ahead hopfully for all.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 10 October 2011 12:11:39 PM
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Dear Belly,

Hi. I've just come back from the park
and the little fellow's taking a nap
so I thought I'd check back in.
When he wakes up we're of to the hospital
to visit his mum and the newborn.

Thanks for you good wishes Belly.
My grandchild is the joy of my life.
And, now I've got another one.
Life is good.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 10 October 2011 12:41:59 PM
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Goodonya Lexi sure everyone shares the best wishes to all.
Now I lay this thread to rest
Time for me to stop being a pest.
Julia girl please do the same
Please go try another game.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 10 October 2011 5:00:53 PM
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Question time today was interesting.
Julie Bishop, in my view a nasty piece of work any time.
Asked a Question of Rudd.
Put in terms that insulted,her only way of talking, it back fired.
Now she may have had two purposes, one being to highlight his out standing better presentation than Gillard.
He rolled her!
Did very well and conservatives should be careful what they wish for.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 11 October 2011 2:58:28 PM
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Dear Belly,

I didn't get a chance to watch Question Time
I would have loved to have seen it.
I'm glad though that finally someone has the
political courage to show the Opposition's tactics
for what they are.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 11 October 2011 7:03:25 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/return-of-mr-popular-raises-hackles-on-both-sides-of-chamber-20111011-1lj7y.html
This Link points out a fact Kevin Rudd, is in the view of some in his side, an awful bloke.
See Wayne Swans body talk.
Julia Gillards look.
But worst of all!
At a time Labor is so low in the polls.
This Cheeky BU&^ER! has the HIDE!
How dare he? to be POPULAR!
Good LAAAWD! his power base is not the factions!
How dare he! its the public! STREWTH! what can we do about this?
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 3:47:15 AM
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Just what IS Rudd's "power base" Belly?
Posted by Antiseptic, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 4:39:45 AM
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http://www.dpm.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=speeches/2011/024.htm&pageID=005&min=brs&Year=&DocType=
This link, from a man I have aways seen as a future Prime minister is of immense interest this week.
It should remind us all, just goggle the speech's in Parliament in 1992 the year we first saw employer superannuation.
Compare those unfocused and untrue, knowingly so, comments.
With todays similar ones on Carbon tax/mining tax and yes the confrontation for its sake, on boat people.
My question why Gillard is under lined by my last and this post, the links.
But ANOTHER question is why ABBOTT?
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 6:51:39 AM
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Dear Belly,

Here's another link on Rudd as PM that you may find
interesting:

http://theconversation.edu.au/rudd-leads-labor-in-2012-don't-rule-it-out-3345

How accurate is it?
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 10:38:32 AM
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cont'd...

sorry typo. It should read:

http://theconversation.edu.au/rudd-leads-labor-in-2012-dont-rule-it-out-3345
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 10:46:27 AM
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Thanks Lexi.
Today historic that it is the bills past for Carbon reduction.
Gallery cheered and as Labor clapped Gillard and Combet Rudd kissed Julia on the cheek.
Question time is looking interesting.
And, trust me, Abbott shaky!
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 11:40:25 AM
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Dear Belly,

I was able to watch Question Time today
and I saw Tony Abbott's insane rants.
I can honestly say the cringe factor
really set in. He was quite dreadful
and so off-putting. I find the man has really
lost the plot and I would be embarrassed
if the Liberal Party went to the next election
with him. Even Joe Hockey and Malcolm
Turnbull just sat there staring straight ahead.
The man needs to have someone tell him how
badly he comes across on television when he carries
on ranting as he does. It was the most awful
Question Time that I've ever seen.
The Liberal Party has really scraped the bottom
of the barrel with Mr Abbott.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 2:55:40 PM
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Lexi,

Congrats on the 2nd grandchild.

Funny how Abbott appeals more to the Australian public than Juliar, who never actually answers a question, and comes across as duplicitous.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 3:13:24 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

Thank You for your kind words.
I am absolutely thrilled. This is my
second grandchild. And he's so beautiful -
Blonde and blue-eyed as his mother. A very
long baby - so I imagine he'll be quite tall.
Both parents are - so no surprise there.

As for Tony Abbott. I don't know whether I
agree with your take on things. Abbott is
a stoker of politicising everything - which
is a pity - but he does attract attention -
the PM definitely needs better communication strategies.
That's for sure. She needs to hold Mr Abbott to
account for all of his statements. Most people I
feel don't want him as PM - but then they don't
want Julia Gillard either. That's the problem we
currently have. Slim pickings for sure.

I hope that the leadership will change before the
next election - so that we can have a more suitable
choice. As I posted earlier - Question Time today
was horrible to say the least.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 3:26:09 PM
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SM note the liar still there.
First just in case you did not notice I dislike Julia.
And if I had to pick one, and it could not be from my side, I dislike as much[Sorry Crean Fitzgibbon you just missed in that case]
It would be Abbott.
We know, polling screams at us, people want both party's past leaders.
Today a group I am part of put 6 months work to bed.
I would not bet on me being there, but first opening, of a time capsule is ten years from the time Carbon tax passed the lower house today.
18 hours of parliamentary debate on video disk,and about 230 pages copied from hansard went in.
Newspaper story's,recorded radio comments.
It was in part my idea grasped by youthful others and its intention?
To open in ten years tell us all about todays actions and the debate then open it again in twenty, if it seems Worth while again every ten.
Some one was very wrong today, I am willing to be held to account for my support.
Not of Gillard but of LABORS BRAVE ACHIEVEMENT.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 4:28:13 PM
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Dear Belly,

We have a relative visiting us from the US at the
present time. He's a very conservative Republican
supporter. We took the opportunity to show him
how our Parliament works by turning on Question Time
today on the ABC. We watched in silence until the
rowdy behaviour of the public gallery made us
very uncomfortable and we looked at him for a reaction.
He just shook his head,
but didn't say anything. And then of-course Tony Abbott
had to make his rant.

At the end of the program we tried to re-assure him that
our Parliament does not always behave that way. His
reaction was - that such irrational behaviour by the
public gallery and a leader of a political party would
not be tolerated in American politics. He said that he
as a conservative could not possibly sanction what he saw.

I must add that on politics we have never agreed with this
relative - but in this case we had no argument with him.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 6:02:47 PM
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Lexi well done! I too have problems with Republicans,well some of them.
I with total honesty, you may charge me with being wrong or silly SM.
Say with no doubt, soon conservatives will dump Tony Abbott.
You spoke of the silent stares of some on his front bench.
I watch for that, on both sides.
He walks on ice never before so thin, so likely to break under him, at any minute.
I FEAR THAT!
If he falls, and it could be tomorrow, before Gillard , we are doomed!
No chance we can slip more behind than now and not be.
Tony Abbott can not lead his party to an election bank on it.
If one goes both leaders do, so wait for 2 new leaders.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 12 October 2011 6:51:16 PM
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Lexi:"would
not be tolerated in American politics."

There are lots of things that aren't tolerated in America. Heading the list is honesty and transparency in politics.
Posted by Antiseptic, Thursday, 13 October 2011 4:28:45 AM
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I think this day, Gillard may come out on top.
I have no faith in her or her ability's.
But knowing todays bill will now not pass.
Cook says so.
She should have minister after minister, stand and do a Tony Abbott.
Deliver this same speech.
We the Australian Government, wanted to deliver a way both our off shore and the oppositions offshore processing could take place.
We believe that is what most Australians want.
Because we understand it can not pass without support we withdraw it.
We after advice shared with the other side that Nehru will not work, may be illegal.
To keep faith with those Australians who fear more deaths at sea.
And increases in those coming.
Will reintroduce the Howard system.
UNTIL SUCH TIME as we find away to get our preferred option.
We understand, it is likely to be ruled illegal in a challenge but the next boat and every one after will betaken to Nehru.

Abbott then would rightly have ownership of the impending troubles
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 13 October 2011 7:15:35 AM
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Antiseptic,

That's why the American felt right at home
watching the Parliament in action until
the rowdy uncivilized behaviour in the public gallery
and Mr Abbott's over the top rant. Then he was thoroughly
disgusted. For some reason he had been given the impression
that our political leaders were more statesmanlike.
He referred to our previous leaders that had given him
that impression.

Dear Belly,

Did you watch Tony Windsor on ABC's Lateline, last night?
He was very polite about Abbott's performance and he did
confirm the benefits of the carbon tax program being
beneficial to rural areas details of which are too
many to list here.

Also did you hear what Albanese brought up in Parliament?
Seen on a news extract, that the rowdy occupants of the
public gallery in Parliament had to be signed in by
Liberal Party back benchers to gain access to the
special section of the public gallery. This translates
that the whole fiasco in the public gallery was orchestrated
by the Liberal Party to embarrass the Prime Minster during
her attempt to reply to a Liberal backbencher's question
to the PM. It looked like the question was an agreed trigger
for the rowdy behaviour.

I'm amazed that this event did not get any news coverage -
we watched every TV Channel - from the six o'clock news
to the late news and "missed" seeing a report of this
Parliamentary incident.

The government should definitely bring this incident to
public notice - it would show people the dirty tactics
engaged by a desperate Opposition. I have supported the
Liberal Party in the past but in the future no matter
how good the Liberal Party leader may appeal to me -
they've lost my support for life with tactics and outbursts
like that.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 13 October 2011 9:07:20 AM
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Lexi thanks
Yep heard that.
In background last hour while doing unpaid work on PC ABC news 24.
Let me air what I know of Windsor, while not my area while working it was as delegate on RTA.
I also went to fill in for others monthly as official.
Windsor is loved by most.
He is a basic country gentleman, bright honest and has always been his own man.
Deliberate lies, constructed Verbal Inexactitudes, slanders, are being used against him.
Well educated as some are,some bush bred farmers are beyond original thought.
And these are the target for Tony's crude lies.
My mind can not escape the picture in it, lined up in full uniform, straw hat bib and brace over alls gum boots on feet.
Calling for Gillard to be shot, names? mum and dad did not put much thought in there.
Boys named after cattle breeds Angus Brangus and such.
Girls Jersey and Clarice.
I just love the scrub, squtterocracy can be fun.
Now sorry, just thought I should return serve,that silly Prime minister is not much good.
But liar? every post.
If we can not take it do not hand it out,Fancy being called Banded Galloway, bet some poor sod is!
Or Herry Ford!
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 13 October 2011 11:18:23 AM
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For the sake of a future day, that some one re looks at this thread.
Long after both Gillard and Abbott have left the stage of Australian Politics.
And I have shuffled of to what ever exists after death.
Those not living these days may well ask, how did this country go so very low in its politics?
HUNG PARLIAMENT? yes a big part, knifing of Rudd? yes, self interest of those who never told us Rudd was behaving badly? yes.
An illness in Australian Conservative politics played a roll.
Mid stream, in total control John Winston Howard, a man of the middle, turned his hatred of trade union heads, on his power base.
WORK CHOICES.
Labor was unready, yes I think it,for government,we had not done our time, not then forged all the tools we needed.
But JWH delivered us victory.
And his team, unexpectedly dumped in the wheely bin! caught a virus!
It ,still today infects them,it is a dangerous lurch away from their intended paths.
American Republicanism, a crippling illness.
Labor continuing the past, repeating it, is about to deliver Government to Conservatives! BEFORE THEY ARE READY FOR IT!
Hence future readers, in about eight years Labor will be in government.
By then it and Australian conservatives, both will have stopped feeding the green vote.
Labor will have cured its infection.
Know by that future date as an illness to be feared.
Lathamism, Gillard Crean that foolish clown Fitzgibbon are carers, and will be forever.
I if still alive will want even then, to understand why my party got rid of Rudd but kept Gillard.
Bill Shorten by your reading will be a great Prime Minister.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 14 October 2011 4:29:55 PM
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I do not feel like linking it.
But a nasty heated, and some times true story in this days Sydney Morning Herald.
Strange that,a balanced well put together newspaper,should be called the FAIRFAX media, as if that word is an insulting swear word.
By the very same blind to reality people who see nothing wrong with? Murdock's constructed interfering controlling power base.
Back to the story, it rather nasty but close to true, talks about why a man I idolize, Bill Shorten SICKEN LY supports Gillard.
I never wanted to say this, to admit it,know it, it hurts.
Bill wants to lead, has not yet got the numbers plans his run AFTER WE ARE DEFEATED!
He is the man we thought Rudd was,
Even if he puts self interest in front of?me and my party.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 17 October 2011 5:17:31 AM
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Shorten knows that the girls of Emily's List won't allow their shining star to be booted. The only chance he's got is to wait until that's already happened.

Of course, he'll still have to pander to the girls to get his chance. No doubt we'll hear lots of feministy rhetoric from him in coming months.

It's interesting that the most "girly man" the ALP has, the execrable Bowen, seems to be just as badly on the nose as gillard. I guess that's what happens when ideology trumps ability.
Posted by Antiseptic, Monday, 17 October 2011 5:29:02 AM
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yesterday polling showed a 3% rise in the ALP .
No endorsement however, Abbott's behavior has been so bad it could/should have been ten percent.
This mornings?
Evidence of something I have seen almost every day after the last election.
Julia Gillard can NEVER win an election.
I breath a little better this morning.
It is evident, she is about to be replaced.
It will take place.
But from post one here the question remains why?
Why dump Rudd, Why Gillard,why has it taken this long.
In our year, the ALP, of reform, putting the platform in place for inclusiveness, a return to membership owning our party.
I the property of my party,ask is it our party or private property of factional LORDS.
Same question must be asked of the party's birth place trade unions, is the power of individuals to be used only in the interests of the few.
Give us a leader, and a say, give us a break,from haveing the best policy's but running second it a two horse race .
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 18 October 2011 6:17:14 AM
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With the support for the carbon tax weakening further, the next election will be fought almost solely on this issue. Juliar has polarized the debate so much that it is now impossible for Abbott not to repeal the tax in 2013.

His calls on business not to purchase credits beyond this is to give business certainty.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 18 October 2011 3:11:46 PM
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Maybe you are right, probably are.
But lets leave the blinkers outside and look at this.
Every chance exists, that if this Parliament runs its full term, mid to late 2013.
Both current party leaders will be gone.
If Gillard is not, by no later than mid next year, I concede defeat.
If it runs to term the Carbon tax will be installed and operating, business, with a track record of playing on your team, is concerned.
How easy will it be to remove.
At what cost to the budget.
After governments change, some promises, made by both sides,want me to name them, are dumped.
And blamed on the side that lost.
IF Labor dumps Gillard, first, note this, polls will be very different than the last.
And that lie you lay at her door, will fade as her start does, so yes still up in the air.
Not trouble making,, these two leaders are propping one another up one goes they both do.
Conservatives have the same concerns I do, theirs are about our Tony.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 18 October 2011 4:02:08 PM
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http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/tony-abbott-slogan-needs-a-tweak/story-e6frgd0x-1226170099232
In his post Shadow Minister forewarned the next election may well be about the Carbon tax.
I agreed.
But Australian Politics in in motion, in flux.
Change could come over night.
This link is not my words, it how ever is my thoughts.
And from a man not known to be other than conservative.
Any truly interested in our political fate should measure well its words.
A way out for conservatives, as surely as it is for Labor is leadership change.
What happens if Turnbull leads at the next election?
The link impresses me.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 5:06:32 AM
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Belly,

Your statement "But Australian Politics in in motion, in flux. Change could come over night." is more than a little optimistic. While there are spikes in opinion from various day to day issues, the trend in opinion has been downwards for 2 years. Turning this around will need a series of consecutive popular wins for Juliar to establish confidence and trust. This is assuming no further scandals in the Labor caucus.

The coalition needs to tune its message, but not much. It needs to focus on the mechanism of dismantling the carbon tax, the NBN etc.

The other strings in Abbott's bow that haven't changed is Juliar's disastrous border control policy, Craig Thomson and a raft of other small issues.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 9:29:32 AM
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Well I can only give you my honest opinions.
I find, now I may be wrong, your style blind mostly to truth.
My views are wrong some times but truly held and deeply considered.
I am prepared to at some future date to be judged by them.
My over view of Australian Policies 2007 till now followers.
Rudd promised much, he went in to power with not every member up to scratch.
And with his, well known, while in the Queensland government, controlling attitude.
His support came/comes from voters not party.
Internally rather than externally he lost leadership.
In my view partly at the hands of his very poor replacement.
Conservatives ride a wave of, even within the ALP discontent with Gillard.
Kept afloat ONLY BY ANTI Rudd forces behind locked doors.
Some of who want to lead them selves.
This mornings link, highlights your side.
It points to promises made that just will/can not be kept.
Much, in truth, of Abbott's promises chill your side.
Some of your team wait knife in hand, for his slip.
IF he is elected he will as the link says, not be able to do much his own party, its supporters ,will see to that.
One of us is quite wrong, based on your last post and my last two I await judgment.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 11:05:12 AM
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Belly,

While I believe that your opinions are honest, I also believe them to be wrong.

Even in 2008 at the height of labor's popularity when Rudd began dismantling the Pacific solution and the boats began to increase, while most were dismissive of the effect on labor's popularity, given the huge margin, I clearly said that as 80% supported the pacific solution, that if this went badly, it would quickly erode confidence in the government, and while not being a deal breaker in itself would make the next election much harder.

What I didn't expect was the continued litany of failures with the pink batts, the school halls, the broken promises etc.

The labor brand is so badly damaged that a couple of victories is not going to revive its fortunes. My guesstimate is that a decade in opposition is required to expunge the party of its odium and its incompetent front bench.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 12:04:58 PM
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You will note we are talking again.
I believe in Civility.
Quite a rough nut known for saying what I think, truly think.
I understand our views ask that you understand mine
Truly I believe you take an issue, sometimes a non issue and inflate it like a bloon.
In truth pink bats school halls,you heave them on to a heap and say failure,got it right except for no more, not one bit more, than ten percent.
I do agree, that Minister failed.
I think public servants failed and still do the $900 to over seas,or the dead,showed we need a better public service.
Yet I feel honored by your telling me I am wrong.
I am unwell, would not bet on being here in 5 years, but in ten, those still around,in hindsight,will see these days as lost ones.
CONSERVATIVES will wish to forget them.
Some of Labors platform NBN Carbon tax will become,long before that your teams policy's.
Judge me on this, if this Parliament runs full term both Gillard and Abbott will not be leaders next election.
A Conservative Government will not roll back the NBN or Labors Carbon reduction scheme.
Yes I understand its a big swipe but confident it will be proven right.
Still bet even you can not tell me why Julia Gillard is still PM.
Cash for clunkers,so very many idiot ideas yet she leads still.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 5:21:18 PM
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Belly,

I also prefer discourse without rancor.

As for your theory that the coalition will adopt the NBN and carbon tax, this I seriously doubt. The reason is that these two labor policies have at their core, many of the big "government knows best" social engineering features that are anathema to free markets.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 20 October 2011 12:26:25 PM
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