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The Forum > General Discussion > Were the Apostles actually 'communists'?

Were the Apostles actually 'communists'?

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Tao Tao :)

good interaction there.. except the imputation of 'greedy' motives to me. *Gentle push kick*

I see ur points.. no drama there. I don't know that Jesus taught communalism.. though it was indeed practiced by the very first Christians. Jesus DID unquestionably teach moderation and your verse is most appropriate.
One of my favorites is the one where the man had filled his storehouses, and his delimma was what to do now ? So, rather than simply enjoy life, he decides to build BIGGER store houses and accumulate more stuff.. aah..but.. BUT.. suddenly "Your soul is required of you this night" and it was all for nothing.

I feel you are locking people in when you say "There is an international working class".. its too much of 'us/them'..
Capitalism DID exist in the Old Testament. It was the economic basis of society, but they also had the checks and balances so that no one would go hungry if they didn't want to. Harvest was always not to be to the nth degree..but to allow enough for gleaners.. the fatherless and the widow and the alien.

I want to repeat another great aspect of ancient Israeli society.. the concept of Jubilee.. its worth a squizz.
In spite of the rather harsh punishments for sin, they also had very amazingly just and fair concepts of economics. Much of the 'slavery' was no worse than me working for the Commonwealth Bank to repay my mortgage. (Until I pay it off, I can't say I work 4 myself eh :)

But there is no question that private enterprise was the basic means of economic growth then. Land holdings, acquiring more land, flocks, herds...etc..straight out capitalism.

Its worth noting in that connection that as soon as Abraham and his nepher Lot reached a certain stage of economic growth, conflict arose.
They became 'bigger' than the available land, and rather than downsize their flocks, Lot just wanted more land at Abrahams expense.
Lot was the 'capitalist pig dog' :) Abraham was more the Socialist.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 5:53:51 AM
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Didn't Nietzsche make an ironic observation about English socialists wanting to replace God with more of the same? Christianity and socialism are merely different denominations of the same religion appealing to the same unfounded gods for the poor and weak. They both want to solve the world's "problems", even if that means forcing people to do what's "good" for them because they're both driven by social misfits plagued by megalomania. The gulag and the inquisition both arise from the same world view and are the logical endpoints of it.
Posted by shorbe, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 2:09:13 PM
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Boaz,

I think you have a real conflict in your life. You are still trying to modify Jesus’ teachings to suit your activities.

Jesus said “No one can serve to masters for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?”

Yet you say, “In my case, I plan to be as free as possible from the daily concerns so I can spend more time proclaiming Christ.” And now you say Jesus preaches moderation. One man’s moderation is another man’s excess. Jesus wasn’t telling you to decide how much moderation you will partake in, he was saying devote everything to God, and your daily concerns will be provided by God. You’re going about it backwards – worrying about your daily concerns before you proclaim Christ. You are hedging your bets. Do you trust in God to provide BOAZ or not? If not, if you don’t do as Jesus says, how can you honestly go about proclaiming him?

As I said before, if your fingers type self-justifying untruths, cut them off.

As to your comments: “I feel you are locking people in when you say "There is an international working class".. its too much of 'us/them'”

I’m not locking anyone into anything. The international working class is an objective fact which exists outside of what I call them. Working class people do not own the means of production and must sell their labour, and there are many of them all over the globe.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 8:41:43 PM
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International working class is a precise term which describes something which exists, whether I call it that or not. If the term assists members of that class to understand the exact relationship they have with the means of production, then all the better. If it assists workers to understand that they have common interests which are in opposition to “them” the international capitalist class, then much the better.

As for how you “feel” about it, having a problem with the ‘us/them’ concept is pretty rich coming from a guy who believes in a creed that consider “them” who don’t come to Christ are dastardly sinners sent by the devil to tempt “us” pure Christians, and who will burn in hell.

You are also wrong in your comments about capitalism existing in the Old Testament. The Bible describes a period of development of human production, and humanity’s ideas which arose from that stage of development – but it was nothing like modern capitalism which is again a precise term. Prior to the period described by the Bible there were no “lots” of land, people did live communally and shared the product of their labour in small groups. You are right that there was a conflict which arose from increased production, and probably population. Jesus’ teachings were an attempt to resolve and eliminate those conflicts – by trying to reverse the process. However despite 2000 years, and Christianity spreading across the globe, it didn’t make people “downsize their flock” and aren’t you glad about that? If everyone had decreased their flock, and not worked to build on technological gains, you’d still be tending the goats.

Time and production has marched on. An unscientific book written thousands of years ago which is purportedly the word of a God who doesn’t exist is not going to solve the problems we are faced with today.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 8:42:14 PM
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There is a key difference between the Apostles and communism/socialism - CHOICE.

Being part of the early christian church and the sharing of wealth was a voluntary choice. Being a member of a socialist country doesn't let you decide if you share your possessions or not.
Posted by StewartGlass, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 9:09:36 PM
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Amen Stewart.. amen !

Tao.. you describe an international working class as though they can never lift themselves OUT of it....hence you are locking them in.
A working blue collar person can get out on weekends and mow factory lawns and gradually build up a JIMS MOWING ..which is a capitalist activity. You would deny such a person this ? That is an economic prison I'd hate to live in, where nothing I dream up can ever succeed because Tao has told me "Your just working class.. you can't be an employer"

Tao.. if I was as you say, then I would not have consciously given my inheritance away.. (over 30 yrs ago) trusting in God to provide my needs. So, I don't need to goto Bishop Tao's confessional on that one mate.

Have a close look at Ancient Israel. It was basically capitalist where peole 'sold' their labor to others. Yet, it had provision for no-one to lack their daily neccessities.

Selling your labor to others is quite ok... even in a Socialist state you are selling your labor to the State.. and getting little back for it I might add..

I'm glad about one thing.. YOU ARE READING YOUR BIBLE :) and in this I rejoice !
May God bless you with insight appropriate to find Salvation in Christ. (and in him.. Life indeed)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 9:34:43 PM
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