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The Forum > General Discussion > Were the Apostles actually 'communists'?

Were the Apostles actually 'communists'?

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Oooooh Tao.... you are so busted :)

You pick me for 'Bible Bashing' but wait... lets see what Tao is on about here....

[The problems faced by workers the world over cannot be solved on a national basis, and can only be solved by the unification of the INTERNATIONAL working class against the international capitalist system by reorganizing society on a socialist basis i.e. according to the needs of the majority of ordinary working people.]

Now.. call me stoopid, but that sure looks like an ideological rant to me :)

Ok.. now its time to pick that to pieces. (the vultures have found the prey and are descending)

Firstly, your observations about Labor and Hawke etc (in the other thread) are very appropriate. But your RESPONSE is totally wrong.

Read Acts 6:1 to see exactly WHY it is wrong. People are still people.
You speak of an international working class ? mate..that is absolute rot.. todays 'working man' is tomorrows capitalist if you give him half a chance. Capitalism IS a problem, but so is 'Socialism' as you present it.

In the end, the best thing is a balance between private initiative and social responsibility. You cannot legislate 'morality' in the sense of changing peoples hearts, you can only legislate to restrain the selfish natural inclination of people.

Socialism didn't work for the early Church, well.. it did for a while, but.. then the beaurocracy began "Choose men from among you"

A spirit filled local Church works very well. People are cared for. Those with '2 tunics' often share one with he who has none... but don't let your left hand know what your right is doing...
You cannot 'legislate' this.. it must come from the heart.
While Jesus changes our hearts, it is a moment by moment relationship.

Socialism without God, is a barren stark wasteland of empty hopelessness....thats my opinion.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 7:02:26 AM
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Boaz,

If you read my post carefully you will see that I was adjusting Country Gals post by qualifying it with "Taking Jesus words literally..."

"Biblical literalism" is a corruption of the Christian religion (or Judaism for that matter), as you say.

Actually, I think Country Gals point is valid that People in Australia, Christians included, are devoted to their material possessions.... just like the ruler in Luke 18:22. The context is relevant and only sharpens the point of the passage.

But really, this thread is about the origins of socialist and communist ideas and you have to admit it is easy to see how Jesus teachings could be interpreted in socialist and even communist terms.BUT Jesus was really a Jew calling Jews back to the principles underlying their own law. The ideas in Jesus teaching that are open to Socialist and Communist interpretation have their roots deep in Hebraic traditions. The Hebrews and subsequently the Jews knew what God required of them long before Jesus came along to remind them... yet again.
Posted by waterboy, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 8:06:46 AM
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Waterboy.... I don't feel the ancient Judaistic traditions show a socialist (in the modern sense of that word) approach to society, I think they have a mix of capitalist/private enterprise + social welfare in a very balanced way.
Then, there is the extra features like the year of Jubilee and many other interesting aspects which would probably make a modern Jewish Banker cringe :)

The provision for the widow and alien and fatherless are outstanding, along with the forgiveness of debt in the year of Jubilee.
The social/economic structure was such that no one should ever fall into an inescapable poverty trap.

It should be remembered though by all, that this was tied to Gods great act of Salvation in bringing the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt, and that they were constantly reminded that kindness of God to them, should result in kindness of them to their fellow man.

Socialism seems to have the idea of looking after everyone, but... it neglects that deepest need of man, to have a relationship with his creator. It also neglects that without divine authority for the ideas it is based on, it is no more valid than any other set of ideas, such as capitalism or even nihilism.

TAO may wish to comment there. (but I'll put on my protective vest and head gear first :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 8:23:35 AM
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BOAZ,

The Qumran community also seems to have practised some of these 'socialist' and perhaps 'communist' ideals.
So there is another instance of the same principles emerging within the Jewish milieu.
It seems Jesus was neither unique nor original in espousing 'socialist' principles. It was in the air. The Jewish air... BCE.

Now... wasnt Karl Marx from a Jewish family (albeit turned Protestant Christian)?
Posted by waterboy, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 3:12:23 PM
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David… David … David,

“Socialism seems to have the idea of looking after everyone, but... it neglects that deepest need of man, to have a relationship with his creator. It also neglects that without divine authority for the ideas it is based on, it is no more valid than any other set of ideas, such as capitalism or even nihilism.”

I, and other socialists, are quite happy to allow the validity of our “set of ideas” to be subjected to critical analysis, compared and contrasted with other “sets of ideas”, tested for truth, etc etc, and we are happy to do so without recourse to any “divine authority” – we don’t need that crutch.

In fact, the lack of divine authority, or unsubstantiated and irrational assertions, is a fundamental tenet of socialism. What that means is that statements such as “it neglects the deepest need of man, to have a relationship with his creator” being an unsubstantiated assertion, and essentially unprovable, is not a reliable basis upon which to take action. Where is your proof of a creator? Why should anyone accept your statement? Just because….. it’s the “truth”?

Similarly, comments such as:

“Read Acts 6:1 to see exactly WHY it is wrong. People are still people.
You speak of an international working class ? mate..that is absolute rot.. todays 'working man' is tomorrows capitalist if you give him half a chance”

Do you deny that there is an international working class? Do you deny that there are multitudes of workers in all countries of the world that have no way to earn their “daily bread” other than to sell their labour?
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 11:39:35 PM
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On what objective basis do you make the generalisation that “todays ‘working-man’ is tomorrows capitalist if you give him half a chance”. Where is your proof? I would suggest that essentially most working people just want a decent roof over their heads, food on the table, education and medical care for their children, and some quality recreation, and an opportunity to contribute to their communities and reach their potential, and knowledge that they will be looked after in their old age – normal things that everyone in the world should be entitled to given our level of technological capabilities. Even if SOME of them become capitalists, it doesn’t mean ALL of them will or even want to. Don’t judge others by your own greedy standards BOAZ.

The only attempted substantiation for your comments is some irrelevant passage from a book written thousands of years ago when capitalism didn’t exist, and there wasn’t even a working class as we know it. Next thing you’ll do is tell me that the bible is the word of God, and is the only “divine authority” by which we should measure our “set of ideas”. That is, you will resort to your crutch. Not doubt you’ll tell me that my problem is that I don’t believe in God, who you can’t prove exists, and so I should just have faith and the “truth” of God’s word will be revealed to me.

In your own words “mate..that is absolute rot”.

The fact is BOAZ, that Jesus did preach against accumulating wealth – “store not up for yourselves treasures on earth”, and early Christians did live in a communal way – probably because of what he taught them. Hypocrites like you twisting his words to justify your own accumulation of worldly goods are disgusting – and I’m not even a Christian.

The deepest need of man (and woman) is not to have a relationship with his creator who doesn’t exist, but to have real relationships with each other i.e. real live human beings, which are not mediated and mutilated by inhuman capitalist property relations and religious delusions.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 11:40:37 PM
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