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The Forum > General Discussion > Australia: one quarter not born here.

Australia: one quarter not born here.

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One quarter of "us" were not born here, what does that mean? Nothing of itself but in context it is disastrous.

This nation was born of immigrants that usurped the previous occupants. Two major immigration initiatives, one directly post WWII that brought a social and cultural diversity that integrated with the existing stagnant mono racial society and one in the seventies.

The first intake secured the labor we required to build a nation in the post war economy, and fortunately we also gained the inteligencia from war torn Europe with that intake. The second intake from the seventies onward could be called the "melding" intake; it was driven by UN agreements based on self serving "social engineering" ideals presented as humanitarian ideology. We did not need labor in the seventies; we had just signed an agreement that would see all manufacturing disappear in the next thirty years, as it did.

So we have received a steady stream of unskilled second and third world immigrants into an economy that has shed labor over the past 40 years, not to mention ownership of everything to overseas investors, it's all gone including the AWB yesterday, and now one quarter of us do not share the same birth language or birth culture, and I will not expand on the religious chasm. It is a tough economy for the educated and socially secure let alone the one in four next to us that is a stranger to this land.

A social time bomb, with a short fuse. We’re on the road to nowhere, come on inside.....prophetic.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 8:36:32 AM
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SOG... I like that post and subject.

1/ "This nation was born of immigrants that usurped the previous occupants." Yes indeed..and if we cannot learn from OUR behavior.. can we learn 'anything' about non traditional Aussie racial/cultural stock?

2/ "Shedding labor and importing unskilled"... *time bomb*

Oooooooh YEAH.. we better believe that.

As more and more low skilled jobs go off shore to China, 'what' will those unskilled immigrants 'do' ?

It won't happen overnight, but the rumblings will increase in fervour and you can abso-bladi-lutely be sure that there will be a small but dedicated band of communist fanatics ready to jump in and tell them how evil capitalism has failed them!

Re the Quarter who don't share ? I think actually many of those come from families where "at least one parent" was not born in Australia doesn't it? In such a case they will still pick up being 'Aussie'.

cheers
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 2:06:05 PM
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How did they do it Gloin because I am having a horrible time? I can’t get residency here because I don’t have an employer and I am not in any form of schooling.

My husband can’t be a sponsor for me although he is a resident for highly skilled “tax purposes” but at least his boss can sponsor him.

We bought our two children after NZ educated and raised them and they are employed – just as well since none of us are allowed a benefit here.

I have fostered 20 little Aussies to date in our mortgaged home in paradise so no one minds me doing my part in raising other young citizens. We're all insured, life, medical, property, we have super going. So far I think we are kinda respectable. :P

We moved here with no intention of returning and all I hear about is immigrants, I don’t want to be one, I want to be a citizen and I can’t. Or even if I manage it I will be considered an immigrant forever more in the eyes of those with an Aussie birth certificate?

I am part of a social time bomb?

Umm… I thought bringing in over a million orphans from the UK post WWII was about keeping the population here rather mono – in the white sense?
Posted by The Pied Piper, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 2:32:04 PM
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Silly me.

>>This nation was born of immigrants that usurped the previous occupants<<

I thought for a moment that we were going to discuss the extermination of aboriginal tribes in the early nineteenth century.

I should know better by now.

And I certainly know better than to believe this line:

>>one quarter of us do not share the same birth language or birth culture, and I will not expand on the religious chasm.<<

You will, sonofgloin. Or if you don't, Boaz will.

Oh, look. There he is now.

Have fun with your mozzie-bashing, people. I know you love it.

p.s. where does it say that the 25% does not "share the same birth language"?
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 3:58:53 PM
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Pericles the link is for you, re the show me the birth language bit.

"At the time of the 2006 Census, Australia's population was 19.9 million, with nearly one in four people living in Australia born overseas. Some 45 per cent of all Australians were born overseas or have at least one parent who was born overseas." http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/04fifty.htm

Welcome to our country Pied Piper, as an immigrant in a land of immigrants your family profile obviously does not fit the UN humanitarian profile of a "deserving" recipient of Australian residency. The only consolation I can offer is that under the "guidelines" our immigration service abides by they would not give me and perhaps half the current population residency if we were outside trying to get in.

This afternoon it was reported that detainees in Villawood detention centre have set fire to the place, you can bet they will let them in to placate them. PP I can only suggest that you begin burning things
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 5:09:01 PM
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sonofgloin, the figures don't add up when you are suggesting that a quarter of Australians don't share 'our' birth language or culture.

According to the ABS, at the last census there were 4.83 million people born overseas living in Australia. Of these:

1.13 million were born in the UK.
0.45 million were born in New Zealand.
0.11 million were born in South Africa which, admittedly, is multilingual (but English is one of the official languages and I have yet to meet a South African - even a staunch Afrikaaner - who doesn't speak English fluently).

That means that approximately 35% of overseas-born Australians come from these three English-speaking countries alone. That's nearly 9% of Australians being born overseas but hailing from an English-speaking country, leaving only 16% coming from a non-English-speaking background - or at least from outside one of these three countries.

Add in the various English-speaking Pacific Islanders, the various English-speaking Southern Africans (from outside South Africa), the various Americans and Canadians (who, I have heard, speak a strange variant of English) and you're looking at quite a sizeable portion of overseas-born Australians who speak English and have done so since birth.

As for culture, well, I'm not so sure there. It depends how you define culture. Having lived in Zimbabwe and New Zealand, and having much to do with rellies in South Africa, England and Wales, I would say that our cultures are remarkably similar.
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 6:40:39 PM
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It does not take long to discover that we all have a streak of prejudice within us which, at times, seems a compulsion. While we all like to think of ourselves as tolerant people, even passionate in our belief that all are equal, it's apparent that we all have a continuing obligation to work on our attitudes. We regularly hear of grievances in connection with which ethnic background, or some similarly irrelevant difference, is blamed. It is of course, the height of arrogance to believe that we are superior to others yet this attitude is hard to eradicate. Sometimes our suspicious approach to those who seem different appears to be heightened by media presentations that distort and aggravate incidents. And at times this almost appears malicious.

We should remember that every group that has come to Australia has faced a lot of intolerance and whoever are the last group to come in will be copping the intolerance now.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 6:54:22 PM
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PP I neglected to address the ticking time bomb.

The ticking time bombs are the enclaves of unemployed immigrants who are over represented in the unemployment statistics. This dependence on the State keeps the community insular but that has a value to them as a community support mechanism, but it defines them, both to themselves and the wider community.

If we could give the second wave of migrants the opportunity that awaited the post war immigrants we would not be having this discussion. Nor a discussion on ethnic youth crime.

Most of the above is also pertinent to the Aussie of several generations in regard to unemployment and the crime that stems from that. All our kids, no matter what State they live in face an official unemployment rate of 30%, but in reality it is markedly higher. The youth of today are not morally corrupt, they are unemployed. Ethnic youth are not anti Australian, they are unemployed.

PP my point is not the sanctity of a bygone Australia; it is about bringing migrants with no skills into a workforce with no work. The only ones to gain from a higher population and no further economic output is the corporate’s that own and control everything we eat drink wear etc, they are pro more consumers, productive or not, the government will support the ones with no work, they still consume.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 7:21:50 PM
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Otokonoko, what many of these people speak as english may be fine for you with a multi-lingual background, but it doesn't work for me.

I have stopped dealing with a number of companies who have connected me to call centers in the subcontinent, or the Philippines, when I tried to contact them. May be you would have found what the people in these centers were speaking was some sort of English, but it sure wasn't what I can recognise as such.

I suppose you class Australia as an English speaking country. If so you are kidding yourself. My recent experience in Parramatta for example was 100% non English speaking. I approached 12 people, asking for directions, & not one spoke English.

My experience in Fairfield was little different. It was the eighth person I asked for direction who could answer me. They did observe that it was unusual to hear English spoken in the district.

Lexi, it is your arrogance that is breath taking. Thankfully not all of us aim quite as low as you, in their aspirations.

With attitudes like yours this country is lost to those who built it. It is unlikely today that with the current population, we could ever defend it, & perhaps it is no longer worth defending.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 7:49:50 PM
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Otokonoko the point to the thread is that we cannot support a higher population base; the infrastructure is failing and abysmal right now in every capital and regional city in Australia due to neglect and successive governments waste and short sightedness. But to answer your question on English speakers

"2001 census: Australians with English as a first language 15,013,965, out of 21,394,309." Otokonoko that is a quarter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 7:50:17 PM
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I haven’t faced intolerance Lexi – unless jokes about sheep are the way locals express that, or merely an odd sense of humor. One young male here thought he was abusing me by calling me a pakeha. Which what I have always called myself on NZ govt forms etc.

Cheers Gloin, I am practicing the “ee” sounds. My 18 year old sounds more Aussie than anyone I’ve met here after three… nearly 4 years. Her most recent job she got because she looked and sounded so classically Australian and that is why her Asian boss wanted her front of shop. Funny eh.

Is English particularly hard to learn?

These people are in the world already, they just need spreading round a bit.

I know water comes up in these threads but then other threads point out how that could be managed better.

So this thread is more about managing people as they arrive and that isn’t being done?

Don’t people create employment as they consume, build, travel, and become educated?

Are the resources all here just not good plans in place? Or do you think it just is not and will not be workable?
Posted by The Pied Piper, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 7:55:39 PM
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You failed to highlight one simple statistic, sonofgloin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population

97.03% of Australians speak English.

Admittedly, that's not quite as high a percentage as exist among the 67,000 people of American Samoa, or the 3,500 of the Chagos Islands, or the 80,000 folk in the Isle of Man, or the 280,000 in Barbados.

But it's a pretty impressive proportion, nevertheless.

What exactly are you scared of?
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 8:39:25 PM
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Pied Piper:>>Is English hard to learn?<<

It is about rote, and continuous interaction brings rote, segregation brings a form of pigeon English, no continuity, short interaction times with English speakers.

Pied Piper:>>I know water comes up in these threads but how that could be managed better.<<

By Paul Lockyer: Updated Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:27am AEST
"Seldom do flooding rains reach Lake Eyre in the arid heart of the continent, but it has now happened two years in a row."

PP we have had enough rain over this continent this calendar year to sustain China for 100 years, that is a fact. Have we saved enough to sustain us for 10, no. There are no votes in water until we are thirsty. Does the government have the foresight to spend $42 billion on water management for our future, no.

Pied Piper:>> So this thread is more about managing people<<

It is only because we cannot give most arrivals a job when they land that there is a management issue, the management of an imported underclass in a nation that is busily building an underclass of it's own cannot have a positive social outcome.

Pied Piper:>> Don’t people create employment as they consume, build, travel, and become educated?<<

The strength of a nations manufacturing segment dictates domestic prosperity and the cost of domestic goods. Here in Australia the Tourist Segment returned more than manufacturing. We are importers who have a tourist/ resource based economy just like a third world nation.
Re the Education, Australia last year recorded the lowest number of kids going to uni to do subjects that require higher math’s. More kids did the subjects that mater in 1966 than last year.

Pied Piper:>> Are the resources all here just not good plans in place? Or do you think it just is not and will not be workable?<<

We have no control the politicians are guided by the UN and the threat from the "money" to turn their economies to dust if they do not comply to leaving their constituents’ naked and defenseless against the corporations.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 9:47:01 PM
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Pericles:>> What exactly are you scared of?<<

P, I have no phobias or biases pertaining to people, any people, migrants included. My considered opinion is that if we bring in migrants the economy must support them; the migrants view is that the economy should support them. Our domestic economy has been fashioned over the past 40 years to support the corporations and financiers. They have as few of us involved in process of making money as technology and legislation will allow.
Posted by sonofgloin, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 10:03:38 PM
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I take your point, sonofgloin, however you raised the notion that one in four Australians come from a linguistic background as part of your argument. As it was an incorrect part of your argument, it demanded refutation. I also acknowledge your evidence from an earlier census that indicated one in four Australians did not speak English as a first language. That does indicate that they are linguistically and culturally differentiated from the rest of society, though when we factor in the information I shared from the ABS, some of them - many of them, in fact, must have been born and raised here. I have known Italian and Chinese kids who can slip into their parents' language at home and seamlessly back into English outside the home. Perhaps they are bicultural as well as bilingual, as they did not behave in any 'abnormal' ways when around their fellow Australians.

Hasbeen, I also understand your point, however I think you have given two fairly extreme examples. Neither Parramatta nor Fairfield, based on your experiences, is really a microcosm of greater Australia. The reality is that the majority of us DO speak English and the majority of us DO share many common cultural characteristics. If I head up the road to Ingham, I will see something of an Italian enclave. I would not use that as evidence that Australia is not an English-speaking country.

As for 'what many of these people speak as English', are you really telling me that New Zealand English, South African English or English English are so markedly different from Australian English that you cannot understand them? They were the three countries I pointed to and, admittedly with the benefit of my own cultural background, I have never had trouble understanding any of them. I had thought that was because they spoke largely the same language (admittedly with some bizarre quirks). Maybe it is because of my upbringing?

I'm not being sarcastic there - I really am interested to know.
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 10:16:55 PM
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"We’re on the road to nowhere"

- Indeed, the source of all our problems are the immigrants and the bicycle riders!

...

...

...

The bicycle riders? But what have they done?

...

- And the immigrants? What have THEY done?!

---

The whole world is on the road to nowhere, ever since the big-bang. If you are sad about it and need to blame someone - blame God, He will not take offence; or blame Nature, it will keep smiling; or blame Time, it will keep ticking just the same. All castles are built on sand - therefore be happy, Carpe Diem!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 18 November 2010 12:08:54 AM
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That's a rather one-eyed view, sonofgloin.

>> My considered opinion is that if we bring in migrants the economy must support them; the migrants view is that the economy should support them.<<

This pre-supposes that migrants do not bring anything to the economy. Which leads me to believe that you see "the economy" as some finite lump, divvied out among the population.

It doesn't work that way. If it did, the colony would never have made it to first base, 200+ years ago, would it?

You also makes the somewhat glib assertion that migrants consider that "the economy should support them". Presumably, you mean that they are a drain on public funds.

What, all of them?

What about the ones that work? Or do you see them as "taking bread from the mouths of the Aussie battlers?"

Are you sure about this:

>>I have no phobias or biases pertaining to people, any people, migrants included<<

The evidence so far suggests otherwise.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 18 November 2010 7:19:46 AM
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Otokonoko and Yuyutsu you both miss the point. The issue is not one of blaming the migrants for anything. The point to mentioning the place of birth and the first language is to demonstrate the "rate" of intake and the affect of the social engineering aspect of the migration strategy on our society.

Second wave migrants were not brought here to fill vacant laboring and factory fodder positions as were the post war migrants. My reasoning on migration is the expectation that migrants have a better than 50/50 chance of finding employment that will sustain them and their families after they arrive.

Some have argued that whatever life style these people attain, even if on welfare benefit it is better than what they had, intimating we have an obligation to support them. I believe that migrants (not refugees who are a separate channel) should only be allowed entry if there is a job for them.

The youth unemployment figure is the tragic marker to where we are and where we are going as a nation. If we are not skilling the young they will further vanish into enclaves of ethnic minorities and poor white Aussie trash struggling to get by as best they can when adults.

Yuyutsu, life is a veil of tears for most, because “that’s life”, but I smile frequently, I want better for “us” especially our young. I grew up in an Australia where you could leave a job today and work tomorrow if you wanted. From perhaps the age of six to my late twenties almost all the factories that backed onto the suburban rail system had permanent signs posted: machinist wanted, welder wanted, fitter wanted, laborer wanted. We worked together and we and the migrants integrated, if we don’t have work we are building enclaves.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 18 November 2010 8:04:29 AM
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Australia has always been reinventing itself. In 1988 an historian (sorry I can't remember source)divided the first 200 years up as follows:
1788-1838: Indigenous people the vast majority; a small immigrant group of dubious foreigners (most of whom would not pass immigration today on account of criminal records, inability to speak local language, low chance of assimilation).
1838-1888: Massive foreign immigration, swamping the previous occupants.
1888-1938: Relatively (compared to before and after)stable population of immigrants and their children - 'Australians'.
1938-1988: Massive immigration, now from more sources, but mainly same background as previous immigrants.

The last 20 years had been a continuation of the fourth quarter, still with most immigrants from traditional sources (UK, NZ)but with a new variety of other sources added.

So, nothing new. This IS Australia.

(Disclaimer: first family immigrant: 1793, last family immigrant (ex NZ) 1927, first non-UK immigrant 1853 Italy)
Posted by Cossomby, Thursday, 18 November 2010 8:13:35 AM
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Pericles>> You also makes the somewhat glib assertion that migrants consider that "the economy should support them". Presumably, you mean that they are a drain on public funds.<<

Glib indeed, P what I mean by economy is the domestic economy, it gives them the employment, I have not whinged about benefits other than that is what partially or fully supports them. The way I see all benefits is that they are like a cash injection into our economy every two weeks and without it we would really be stuffed, all the service jobs would go, but to pay benefit we need more workers than recipients.

Pericles>> What about the ones that work? Or do you see them as "taking bread from the mouths of the Aussie battlers?"<<

P you could script Hitler’s twisted rhetoric with your ability to spin, get a grip.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 18 November 2010 8:20:18 AM
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PS I meant to add to last:

In spite of being descended from 1790s Sydney convicts, I also fall into the statistical category: "Some 45 per cent of all Australians were born overseas or have at least one parent who was born overseas." My father was born in NZ where his family had been since the 1840s. Amusingly, he never needed to be naturalised as an Australian, and got his first passport ever in the 1980s .... so he could visit New Zealand. He'd been to New Guinea in the army in WW2, but apparently you didn't need a passport (Australian or NZ) for that!

So this fearful statistic is pretty meaningless in terms of 'Australianess'.
Posted by Cossomby, Thursday, 18 November 2010 8:23:43 AM
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If this was supposed to explain anything, sonofgloin, it most assuredly didn't.

>>Glib indeed, P what I mean by economy is the domestic economy, it gives them the employment, I have not whinged about benefits other than that is what partially or fully supports them. The way I see all benefits is that they are like a cash injection into our economy every two weeks and without it we would really be stuffed, all the service jobs would go, but to pay benefit we need more workers than recipients.<<

It would appear that you accept that employed migrants add to the economy, rather than subtract from it. In my language, that means that they "support" the economy, rather than the economy supporting them.

So how do you figure "benefits other than that is what partially or fully supports them"? They are either working, or on benefits, surely?

And frankly, the waffle about benefits being essential to all the service jobs makes no sense either.

I'm still trying to work out exactly where you see a problem. Is it the language? I thought we'd covered that off.

Is it jobs?

>>I grew up in an Australia where you could leave a job today and work tomorrow if you wanted<<

Ah, it's just nostalgia we're talking about, is it.

Hint: times have changed.

Amazing though it may seem to you, things have changed less here in Australia than in many other countries. We still have low unemployment, which has been a problem for Europe for decades, and is presently causing angst in the US. We still have a solvent country, which is a major worry in Greece and Ireland.

If only the weather would improve.

Oh, about that...
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 18 November 2010 8:40:14 AM
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Sonofgloin,

Are you saying that migrants are coming in order to take part in 'social engineering'? Do you think migrants even come to be part of the Australian society or the Australian economy or the Australian welfare?

Other than some New-Zealand immigrants, wrong on all accounts.

Refugees are a "separate channel" only in the eyes of Australian beaurocrats, not the refugees themselves. Most immigrants see themselves as refugees, even as they arrive on other kinds of visas (myself included, I arrived on a skilled-visa). People come here to flee oppression, wars, conscription, unacceptable laws, harsh weather, I even know someone who fled their country because traumatized by earthquakes. Many who would never be recognized as refugees by the Australian government, would prefer to live in a kennel than in their country of origin.

Most immigrants come to live freely in this continent, not in its society. Most would actually prefer to arrive at a terra-nulla, if that was at all possible, and see the need to integrate with Australian society as a necessary evil (in fact, earlier immigrants did not excel in that aspect either).

As for employment, I neither rely on Australia for a job nor for welfare, I bring my income from overseas, and pay my taxes here. Is that good enough?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 18 November 2010 9:13:04 AM
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Hasbeen:

I recently heard of an infuriated theatre attendant who became irritable by a migrant who was unsure where to line up. "Why don't you learn how we do things here?" she shouted in exasperation at the bewildered migrant. Such absence of courtesy and understanding is inexusable and should prick the conscience of all of us. Incidents such as this one can provoke defiance, and even a desire to retaliate. Our aim should always be to behave with respect towards others, and to encourage this in all people. That's not being arrogant, compassionate would be a more appropriate word.

Piper:

I'm pleased that you haven't been exposed to any intolerance.
It's not pleasant.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 18 November 2010 9:23:36 AM
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Hey Yuyu, I came to be an Aussie and for my children to be Australians but you covered the Kiwi’s nicely. Aussie and NZ probably are the most similar to each other since we have cornflakes, vegemite and both insist we invented the pavlova.

My children’s Pilipino and Greek friends parents are citizens and their lives and familes are here as well as no intention of being anywhere else. My Dutch builder knows more about Aussie history than anyone else I have met. I have a Chinese friend who sneaks past something he calls a “the countries boarder router” to talk to me, he hates his country.

When you arrive as an adult it is difficult making new friends and often I think some find it more comfortable to seek out their own kind. But most make the move wanting to be part of the whole and to fit in with their new society and where their children will grow up. The dream.

I feel it is the opportunity that is lacking rather than the willingness to do it.

Sorry Lexi I meant that I hadn’t been the brunt of intolerance in Aussie. When I first arrived two Maori boys came over and lived with us for awhile. I’ve had Samoan, Indian, and Aboriginal foster children, interesting going shopping with a rainbow of children. My neighbors here keep being referred to as Lebs which they aren’t, and my time in Saudi Arabia where I was the brunt of intolerance daily. There is a street around where I live where if my daughter has to walk down it she calls me as she walks past the house where some young Lebanese men yell obscenities at her as she goes by.

I don’t have an answer for it.
Posted by The Pied Piper, Thursday, 18 November 2010 10:05:40 AM
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Piper,

I don't have an answer for intolerance either. But everything is relative, everything has its story; and everyone has obstacles to overcome. They are our greatest teachers. Each of us goes through transitions and transformations. The important thing I guess is that we acknowledge them and learn from them.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 18 November 2010 10:21:54 AM
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Pericles:>> If this was supposed to explain anything, sonofgloin, it most assuredly didn't.<<

Read it again, he said glibly.

Pericles:>> It would appear that you accept that employed migrants add to the economy, rather than subtract from it. In my language, that means that they "support" the economy, rather than the economy supporting them.<<

P, either way works, as long as the economy can produce the jobs.

Pericles:>> So how do you figure "benefits other than that is what partially or fully supports them"? They are either working, or on benefits, surely?<<

Surely not, in Australia many benefits allow you to work to a dollar threshold without affecting your entitlement, surely this is so P.

Pericles:>> And frankly, the waffle about benefits being essential to all the service jobs makes no sense either.<<

Frankly my observation is that the total welfare budget is over $20 billion and it gets spent here, not in Indonesia, not in the USA it gets spent here. Take that out of our domestic economy and you say no jobs will go? P none of what I say makes sense to you does it?

Pericles:>> I'm still trying to work out exactly where you see a problem. Is it the language? I thought we'd covered that off.<<

Keep trying. You stick with the lowest common denominator when inferring that one is a racist fool don't you.

TBC
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 18 November 2010 10:43:30 AM
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So we're sending our jobs and manufacturing industries overseas and selling off much of the rest?

I would imagine this is the result of our own companies and private business owners doing this for immediate personal gain rather than the fault of migrant levels decades ago.

The second generation of migrants in particular have contributed a great deal to this nation.

China and others don't come over here and simply buy things, we offer to sell them first and don't seem to care where the money come from.

Unless there are some hard facts to back up those assertions, they are no more than simply scapegoating a specific group.
Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 18 November 2010 12:44:24 PM
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I suppose we should be thankful for small mercies, sonofgloin.

>>You stick with the lowest common denominator when inferring that one is a racist fool don't you.<<

At least no-one has followed up on the innuendo of your "religious chasm" observation.

That's a Good Thing.

But your welfare budget analysis still confuses me.

>>Frankly my observation is that the total welfare budget is over $20 billion and it gets spent here, not in Indonesia, not in the USA it gets spent here. Take that out of our domestic economy and you say no jobs will go?<<

Where does the "welfare budget" come from, sonofgloin?

Why, from taxation, Mr Pericles. From taxation, most assuredly. Yes indeed, that's where the $20 billion comes from, I'm sure of it.

So if you reduced the "welfare budget" to zero, sonofgloin, would the $20 billion disappear? Would it suddenly fly to Indonesia, or the USA? Or would it continue to exist within our economy?

That's right. It would stay. In the pockets of businesses who could use it to employ lots more people, expand their businesses, and increase our export earnings. And in the pockets of workers, who could use it to keep the rest of the economy bright and shiny and prosperous.

So, to help me understand you, you have no problem with migrants so long as the economy continues to grow, in order to provide them with jobs? And if they are working, and supporting their families, you have no concerns at all?

So where exactly is the "social time bomb, with a short fuse"?

Ah, here it is.

>>...the enclaves of unemployed immigrants who are over represented in the unemployment statistics<<

How about, instead of going round the houses with this "first language" furphy, provide us with statistics on unemployment among immigrants?

The only migrants I know work their tiny little butts off. And their kids put in seriously long hours at schoolwork, too.

But I'm always open to being edumacated.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 18 November 2010 1:12:26 PM
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Wobbles">> So we're sending our jobs and manufacturing industries overseas and selling off much of the rest?<<

Er yes Wobbles we don't have much left to send off shore but it is still moving north.

wobbles">> I would imagine this is the result of our own companies and private business owners doing this for immediate personal gain rather than the fault of migrant levels decades ago.<<

What a simplistic statement, I never mentioned jobs in jeopardy because of migration, I said several times we don't have the jobs whether the migrants were here or not, thus the crux of my observation is opaque to you and your response ill founded.

I mentioned that the government is to blame for allowing the corporates to do what is imperative for their business whether it serves the community in the long term or not.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 18 November 2010 6:54:57 PM
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"""
I mentioned that the government is to blame for allowing the corporates to do what is imperative for their business whether it serves the community in the long term or not.
"""
Could you expand on this thought, sonofgloin?
Should the government have prevented corporates from leaving this land?

You also said: "So we have received a steady stream of unskilled second and third world immigrants into an economy that has shed labor over the past 40 years."

And: "It is a tough economy for the educated and socially secure let alone the one in four next to us that is a stranger to this land."

Are you saying the numbers of immigrants are reducing jobs. And that it's harder for an immigrant to get a job because he wasn't born here?
Or because all the corporates have left for countries where labour is cheaper?

Is your gripe with the government or the corporates, or both?

I kind of feel what you're saying, but I'm wondering how you're recognising the problem?
Posted by RawMustard, Thursday, 18 November 2010 8:40:31 PM
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I feel like a bit of an outsider on this thread (though that's never stopped me) being a country boy. Having lived in (various parts of) the country all my life, I have never really been able to appreciate the migrant debate. Apart from transient backpackers, multiculturalism in most country towns traditionally extends to the obligatory Greek or Italian fruiterer or fish shop owner, and the owners of the Chinese restaurant; both sets of whom work long hours and rely heavily on family employment.
On my rare visits to the 'big smoke' I have to admit being amazed travelling through suburbs where I couldn't read any of the signs, but oh well.
Although I am heavily against any form of racism and discrimination, I do sympathise with some of S.O.G.s sentiments viz the workforce. We have been suffering skills shortages regularly for decades, and importing skilled migrants has never been the answer. Normally a shortage means prices rise; scarcity implies greater value.
Whereas in the fifties and sixties tradesmen were comfortably middle class, now they are often working poor, reliant to some degree on welfare, or at least child subsidies.
Importing unskilled labour seems to be marching in step with the widening gap between the richest and poorest in this country, and the death of our 'classless' society.
Posted by Grim, Friday, 19 November 2010 6:30:41 AM
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Dear Grim,

You seem to be mourning the death of our 'classless' society, so I wish to look at it in perspective.

Australians must be congratulated for rejecting and shaking off the stagnated and overdue European/English concept of social classes, whereby some people were "better" than others just because they came from the right family, while others never had a chance.

Nevertheless, the upset with that old and corrupt class system can blind one to the fact that classes do exist in nature, and are in fact healthy in their natural form. Natural classes are based on ability, especially on the degree of ability to accept responsibility. For example, one who can do a day's work without supervision is of a higher class than one who cannot.

Unless we bury our heads in the sand, we must acknowledge that birth and genetics do play a role in one's ability to accept responsibility. We must however acknowledge as well that, with effort, one can rise above their genetic line.

It is for example widely accepted in our society that humans are of a higher class than animals, even to the extent that animal life is considered dispensible - yet look at yesterday's headline:

"Afghan hero dog put down by mistake: A dog credited with saving her owner's life in Afghanistan, by barking at a suicide bomber, has been put down by mistake in Arizona after straying and ending up in a pound".

Not many men and women receive a headline when they die, but even dogs can rise by their efforts, all the way up to the class of humans, where their lives are respected as precious.

This dog, Target by name, has showed responsibility, and was thereby elevated to the level of a human. I am afraid that even a higher level of responsibility is required to become prime-minister. We can no longer afford a prime-minister from a lower class.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 19 November 2010 7:36:47 AM
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*Whereas in the fifties and sixties tradesmen were comfortably middle class, now they are often working poor, reliant to some degree on welfare, or at least child subsidies.*

Er not quite so Grim. In your limited worldview perhaps, not in
the rest of Australia it seems.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/8350050/we-deserve-our-big-bucks-tradies/

Clearly plenty of tradies are cashing in bigtime. My local
mechanic charges 100$ an hour for his time, hardly working poor stuff.

Those with skills, will do ok if they have half a brain.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 19 November 2010 2:34:54 PM
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"The rest of Australia", Yabby?
Last I heard, West Oz comprised just 10% of Australia, and by far the highest paid and most expensive 10%, at that.
In my "limited worldview", -the eastern seaboard, where the trivial 70% to 80% live- average tradies get considerably less. In fact, I just checked out the Aus. Gov.s Job outlook site:
http://joboutlook.gov.au/pages/occupation.aspx?search=alpha&code=3312
the national average for chippies is $923 a week. for Boilermakers it's $980.
Keep in mind this is a national average, calculated from the highs in Western Australia, to the poor sods (and yes, that includes lower skilled migrants) still working for award wages in the country towns and regional suburbs.
"Clearly plenty of tradies are cashing in bigtime. My local
mechanic charges 100$ an hour for his time, hardly working poor stuff."
Err, small businesses have these horrible things called overheads, Yabby. You may have heard of them.
In physical businesses like mechanics, the charge out rate ratio is relatively low; typically 2.5 to 3 times the gross wage of the bloke on the tools. This is largely because in the small business the boss either does his own books, or hires a part timer. As a small businessman, my charge out is $140./hour. Unfortunately, I can't actually pay myself that much. By comparison, my accountant's charge out rate is $450./hour, to cover non productive staff, secretaries, clerks and a 'tea lady' (I suspect she's his mum).
If your mechanic is charging $100. he's probably making (or paying his tradies) around $30 to $40 an hour; still better than the national average.
It's always interesting to watch a yabby in retreat; that tail flick makes them so much faster in reverse than forwards.
I can't wait to see where this flick takes us.
Posted by Grim, Friday, 19 November 2010 4:16:13 PM
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Indeed, Yabby. I nearly lost a valuable keyboard when I read this...

>>Whereas in the fifties and sixties tradesmen were comfortably middle class, now they are often working poor, reliant to some degree on welfare, or at least child subsidies.<<

There is - in Sydney, at least - a positive flood of affluent tradies, working in every field, plumbers, electricians, builders, builders' labourers, painters, plasterers, landscape gardeners, gardeners' muscle - you name it.

I am sure that if you described any of these folk as "working poor" to their face, they would think you mad.

And they would happily describe themselves as "middle class". Whatever that means.

From my own recent experience, I can tell you that of the three builders who did some work on my place a couple of years back, two were university educated. They were family men, happy in their work (and efficient, too), having chosen a largely outdoor occupation in a field where quality and speed were appreciated.

I don't know what that proves, except that they were far from poor.

And the rate the (power-company-recommended) electrician charged last week, just to show up and do fifteen minutes of investigative work, led me to believe that he was not in that category either.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 19 November 2010 4:23:16 PM
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RawMustard:>> Should the government have prevented corporates from leaving this land?<<

RM governments traditionally protected their nations manufacturing base with tariffs, they protected the nations "company" wealth with legislation regarding foreign investment and ownership. This did not stop OS investments, it just gave us the right to say no and call the shots. The Lima protocol of the seventies and every subsequent free trade agreement has torn down all barriers to stop the wealth generated by us going straight overseas as it does right now.

RawMustard:>> Are you saying the numbers of immigrants are reducing jobs.<<

What jobs? Youth unemployment is officially 30%....and the rest.

If we can't give work to our own kids, why bring "migrants" in, but as I said "refugees" are a separate case. The migrants didn't get rid of our manufacturing base, OUR politician, the UN Development Organization, the World Bank and the IMF teamed up by the "Money" to make them more money by sending manufacturing in first world nations to the second and third world.

RawMustard:>> Is your gripe with the government or the corporates, or both?<<

This week on the same news segment I saw a pensioner whose electricity bill frightens him to the point that he won't flick on a light switch, the poor old bugger uses candles to get around, and later a healthy pay rise for the bastards in government was reported. It is sickening, I heard some spin from one of our elected bludgers yesterday...we are cutting this allowance and doing away with that....pathetic rubbish....are you getting more money was the question, he just kept on going. He should have his tongue cut out and melted down for candle wax for our old pensioner mate.

Corporate or Government we are just clients.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 19 November 2010 4:33:22 PM
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Pericles:>> I can tell you that of the three builders who did some work on my place a couple of years back, two were university educated. I don't know what that proves, except that they were far from poor.<<

Pericles perhaps they did six years of medicine but gave it up because fixing your abode brings more self satisfaction and money.

P this is the TBC from previously.

Pericles:>> Ah, it's just nostalgia we're talking about, is it.
Hint: times have changed.<<

There is a vast difference between nostalgia and history, my nostalgia of that era is certainly not the ample employment.

Pericles:>> Amazing though it may seem to you, things have changed less here in Australia than in many other countries. We still have low unemployment, which has been a problem for Europe for decades, and is presently causing angst in the US. We still have a solvent country, which is a major worry in Greece and Ireland.<<

Low unemployment, that’s worth a laugh. The real numbers are buried in 100 different support and tutor programmes that don't show up in the statistics. Re the American "angst" and our solvent country, we will be a net importer of food in the next five years and we are selling our farmland to the Chinese, Argentineans, and anyone else with the money. We sold the Australian Wheat Board yesterday.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 19 November 2010 4:58:46 PM
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Yabby:>> Er not quite so Grim. In your limited worldview perhaps, not in the rest of Australia it seems.<<

Yabby you are a slippery character, you suggest that Grim has a myopic view while you quote to us carpenters in WA by far the fastest growing economy in Australia that has to lure tradies from the east with dollars to service the gold rush style sell off of our resources. They are certainly a lucky minority of tradies at the moment.

Yabby your source: Nick Sas of The Western Australian is an intrepid little journo, using his wordsmith skills to paint a picture of the opulence of having four motor bikes and a hilux ute. Certainly the high life for them in your opinion given you use this as an example of Pitt Street Tradies.

Yabby:>> Clearly plenty of tradies are cashing in big-time. My local
mechanic charges 100$ an hour for his time, hardly working poor stuff.<<

Yabby are you and pericles joined at the hip? P was crying about some scoundrel electrician that robbed her blind, just like your mechanic robbed you blind...are you twins also blind.

Yabby:>> Those with skills, will do ok if they have half a brain.<<

Thanks for that reassuring encouragement; you do know that youth unemployment is one in three officially. So as well as having a skill and a brain they have to have an employer.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 19 November 2010 5:51:45 PM
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*As a small businessman, my charge out is $140./hour. Unfortunately, I can't actually pay myself that much. By comparison, my accountant's charge out rate is $450./hour*

Sheesh Grim, and there was you, saying how people are no longer
middle class, but working poor. Clearly some are clearly
thriving and charging a fortune.

*If your mechanic is charging $100. he's probably making (or paying his tradies) around $30 to $40 an hour*

Nope, he keeps the lot. He owns a ute, a mobile phone and some
tools. He's part of a thriving industry of contractors who
don't have all those overheads you talk about, plumbers, electricians,
building workers, who cream it all the way.

They don't need a boss to sit in the office, playing on his computer,
who takes most of the profits.

BTW, Western Australia covers a third of Australia. But I did
ring central Qld to buy a machine a couple of years ago. The owner
would not even give me a quote. His tradies had all taken on highly
paid mining jobs, he was hoping that some Filipinos might want work.

Now it is possible that there is an oversupply of tradies in some
very nice spots by the seaside, along the coast. But for any
tradie worth anything, if he gets off his arse, Australia is a big
place and he can do extremely well. Not everyone can frolic by the
seaside and expect huge wages at the same time.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 19 November 2010 6:00:29 PM
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Now you are just being perverse for the sake of it, sonofgloin.

>>Pericles perhaps they did six years of medicine but gave it up because fixing your abode brings more self satisfaction and money.<<

Not so. One majored in Geography, as I recall. The other has an Arts degree of some kind. I was simply making the point that they were not disadvantaged in any way, and not poor either.

>>Low unemployment, that’s worth a laugh. The real numbers are buried in 100 different support and tutor programmes that don't show up in the statistics.<<

I'd be interested in any data you have to back that up. But presumably, other countries use the same basis of calculation, so we are comparatively fully employed here, as I pointed out.

>>...we will be a net importer of food in the next five years and we are selling our farmland to the Chinese, Argentineans, and anyone else with the money.<<

Why are we doing that, do you think? Is it because we can't be arsed to work the land any more? Or perhaps farmers can't make a living wage, because the prices we are prepared to pay for their produce at the shops are too low? Or because farmers can't get fat lazy Aussies to work on the farm these days?

Do you think that we should place a restriction on overseas companies buying Australian ones? How would that work, do you think, when there are a large number of Australian companies who buy overseas businesses. It is what multinational organizations do.

And this is a giggle.

>>We sold the Australian Wheat Board yesterday.<<

That's the company who bribed Saddam Hussein to buy our wheat, right?

I'm only surprised that they are still in business.

But they don't actually grow anything anyway, do they?
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 19 November 2010 6:05:52 PM
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*We sold the Australian Wheat Board yesterday.*

We did indeed, Sonofgloin. Thank goodness for that.
So why do you have a problem with that?

I happen to grow a little bit of wheat. Not a grain
ever goes near the Australian Wheat Board.

They are just one of a multitude of grain traders.
But they do happen to own the Landmark chain, which
is what the buyer was after.

*They are certainly a lucky minority of tradies at the moment.*

Yes indeed Sonofgloin, some people do make their own luck.

*you do know that youth unemployment is one in three officially*

Sheesh, we have too many kids trained to flip burgers. What about
training them for skills that employers actually need?
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 19 November 2010 6:20:00 PM
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Yabby:>> Sheesh, we have too many kids trained to flip burgers. What about training them for skills that employers actually need?<<

The breathtaking inanity of that statement does not surprise me given the utterance came from you. The often misquoted "let them eat cake" comes to mind as a parallel to your misinformed statement. We have no manufacturing industry therefore we have no ongoing jobs in that segment. The service industry and the Tourist industry are the largest employment segments in Australia at present; our economy is a burger flipping economy.

Yabby and what skills would employers be looking for in our economy, Other than a trade relevant to the housing or mining industry. I will give you a short list of vocations that had more Australians employed in those trades twenty years ago than today.
cabinetmaker, metal machinist, fitter, turner, welder, metal polisher, aircraft engineer, toolmaker, blacksmith, motor trimmer, wood turner, shoemaker, textile maker, electroplater, boilermaker, etc.

So Yabby you grow a little wheat yourself do you, and you use an agent other than the AWB, how does that have any relevance to us selling off the AWB. If you are still a farmer do you consider yourself "the landed gentry", you surely talk like it given your comments that tradies are the new nouveau riche.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 20 November 2010 9:50:32 AM
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Pericles:>>And this is a giggle.<<

>>We sold the Australian Wheat Board yesterday.<<

>> That's the company who bribed Saddam Hussein to buy our wheat, right? I'm only surprised that they are still in business. But they don't actually grow anything anyway, do they? <<

Yes P they don't grow anything, they are an agent, it seems Yabby grows stuff though.

Like all agents trading in the Middle East money is paid separate to contract, it all depends on what you call it and who gets it. The only reason that the over contract payment became an issue for savvy observers such as yourself is that you probably seen it on the tv.

The truth is Saddam was fine when he was employed to keep Iran away from the Moneys investments, then he was the devil. P the reason we waged war with Iraq is that in 2000 Saddam refused to accept the U.S. dollar for his oil, and instead switched to the euro. Saddam also made a foolish move by switching all of his U.N. reserves from the dollar to the euro. So it was all about the dollar’s monopoly on oil purchases throughout the world and the wheat thing is a normal but immoral business practice outed for propaganda purposes that would further denegrate the character of the nation of Iraq.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 20 November 2010 9:53:50 AM
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*We have no manufacturing industry therefore we have no ongoing jobs in that segment*

Total nonsense, Sonofgloin. We simply don't make a heap of el
cheapo consumer goods anymore, like we used to. The nature
of manufacture has indeed shrunk somewhat and it has changed
somewhat, as times have changed. But service jobs, like the
internet, has created a whole range of new jobs, in areas like
IT. They need skills too.

Most of the things that I buy, are still Australian made. Silos,
stock feeders, welders, water tanks, water pumps, poly pipe fittings,
etc, all Australian made. Agricultural machines like seeders,
topdressers, sprayers, Australian made.

In Fremantle, Austal ships builds huge ferries and exports them
around the world. They could not find enough trained workers here,
so relied on 457 workers, then moved part of their business to the
US.

To develop mines, takes huge structures and lots of skilled tradesmen.
Maintaining all that machinery, takes skilled tradesmen, from
electricians, to boilermaker welders, to mechanics, to spraypainters.

Not everyone just frolics on the coast and then wonders why there is
no work.

AWB is nothing but another grain trader. My grain goes to CBH,
a coop owned by 5000 farmers. They own the storage and handling
systems, the ship loading facilities, the works really. Why
on earth would I want to put the paperwork through Melbourne?
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 20 November 2010 10:53:58 AM
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'Flick'.
“BTW, Western Australia covers a third of Australia.” Thank you for that fascinating statistic, yabby. Did you know Mt Everest is the tallest mountain in the world? Strangely, neither of these stats., have any bearing on the fact that WA still only has about 10% of Australia's population.
If you had bothered to check the link I supplied earlier, you would have found these statistics:
93,000 motor mechanics nation wide earn an average of $800.00/ week.
This, it should be noted, is probably just a little over the current median wage. It should also be noted that while the 'average' wage has risen steadily and significantly over the last decade or so, the median wage hasn't moved much at all. In fact, in the USA the median wage has actually dropped.
Carpenters, 110,200 earning an average $923/week
Metal trades, 78,300 earning an average $980./week
Keep in mind in order to achieve these princely sums, tradies have to undergo a 3 to 4 year apprenticeship, earning sub adult wages. Compare this to truck drivers:
170,600 earning an average $1000./week. When I went for my truck license a year or 2 back, it cost me $420. for 3 one hour lessons.
Why would anyone want to be a tradesman?
And of course the inferences that all these tradies are lolling about in seaside resorts is just typical yabby nonsense. By no coincidence, most tradespeople are in the same places as most people are; in the suburbs of capital and regional cities.
And yes, subbies and small businessmen can make better money -but around 80% who try, fail. Even within the small cadre of successes I would suggest almost all would envy anyone who can make $100.00/hour, with no overheads (and full employment?).
Which should anyone be more impressed by; anecdotal evidence from yabby, concerning a completely atypical (if not completely unbelievable) example, or census statistics?
Posted by Grim, Sunday, 21 November 2010 4:18:11 AM
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The point is, none of the tradies mentioned above would have an ice cube's chance in hell of buying a house and raising a family on their wage alone, even with tax subsidies.
You might say “so what”? These days, even doctors' and lawyers' wives work. When Menzies was excoriated for saying 4% unemployment was a 'good thing', he was talking about male unemployment. The real unemployment rate in the 50's and 60's, by today's workplace standards, was closer to 50%.
As I pointed out in my first post, scarcity raises prices. And I have admitted, skilled immigration has not been the only hit against labour scarcity in this country; women entering the workforce has had an enormous impact on the overall economy– but very few women have affected the trades mentioned. They have however, joined the ranks of truckies and bus drivers, which just shows they're not silly.
I strongly urge everyone to watch Elizabeth Warren on youtube, on 'The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class' in America. Although the USA's situation is not entirely applicable to Australia, there are more than enough similarities to make it more than worthwhile.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
It is also interesting to note the video was posted in January, 2008.
Posted by Grim, Sunday, 21 November 2010 4:22:23 AM
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*93,000 motor mechanics nation wide earn an average of $800.00/ week.*

I did in fact check out that site, Grim. There was no talk of
"average", that I saw, but of what a worker might expect. Given
that it deals with all of Australia, a Govt dept dealing with job
seekers, is hardly going to raise wage expectations. I could
be wrong, but show me where this is the "average".

As to population, you seem to have forgotten mining industries
in Qld, SA, NSW. What to you think a mechanic earns at Roxby Downs?
So its not just WA.

Or even this, all on the coast in Victoria:

http://www.theage.com.au/environment/water-issues/nice-earner-for-desalination-workers-20090929-gb3q.html

130 Grand a year for workers, not one of them in WA.

*Why would anyone want to be a tradesman?*

Because they can make great money, if they have half a brain.
Just ring your electrician to see what he charges.

*And yes, subbies and small businessmen can make better money -but around 80% who try, fail*

Who said that 80% of tradies fail? Small business yes, but that
includes many dreamers who set up shops etc, or try some you beaut
scheme, usually not understanding the first thing about running
a business.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 21 November 2010 10:15:07 AM
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*The point is, none of the tradies mentioned above would have an ice cube's chance in hell of buying a house and raising a family on their wage alone, even with tax subsidies.*

Of course not, for expectations have changed and house prices have
been driven up dramatically by 2 income households.

The size of the average Australian house has doubled. No longer
the 3 by 1 fibro, with mum, feet at the sink and an old Holden in
the drive. Today its a 4 by 2 with all mod cons, 2 cars usually,
mobile phones, Foxtel on the roof and internet coming in. Mum
no longer sews those kids clothes to save money, as she used to.
The Vacola bottles, chooks and vegie patch are gone. Cause
mum is down at Westfields, spending up on the Visa card.

http://career-advice.careerone.com.au/salary-employee-benefits/salary-research/leading-the-world-in-pay-reward/article.aspx

Sounds like we have some of the highest wages in the world. But
its a human foible, whatever people have, they want more.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 21 November 2010 10:27:54 AM
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Grim thanks for the Liz Warren link, it is as relevant to us as the US because the historical data here mirrors the US trends, in fact all the first world nations trend similarly.

Liz examples that one generation ago one partner worked and the net national household savings was X percentage of GDP, giving a measureable indication to the quality of life. She quite rightly then prognosticates that the explosion of technology will give us more leisure time while adding to our quality of life and individual household prosperity.

None of it happened, not here, not the US, not in Europe or the UK. In all first world nations the majority of mums work for someone other than their family, and the majority of the mums in the preceding century did not.

I have supplied our Yabby the numbers that show one generation ago household savings in Australia were 18%, now they are struggling to hit 2%, it means nothing to Yabby.

Have a look at the graph on this link that shows the Australian households prosperity steadily growing in the post war years. We had a manufacturing industry along with full employment that accommodated a wave of welcomed migration. Then the Lima Agreement was signed in 1973 and the process of dismantling our manufacturing segment begun, our role as stated and signed off on by our politicians was to grow and dig and export without value adding, and we have certainly stuck by that.

http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1451/PDF/06_Household_saving_in_Australia.pdf

Grim the graph exhibits the work and savings of generations now moving into the hands of the few who constructed and implemented globalization. Two years after the Lima Agreement the decay was evident, less of us were working, especially the young and the term dole bludger came into the vernacular.

Yabby would have you believe we all became bludgers on the same day, akin to the horse’s birthday.
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 21 November 2010 11:51:16 AM
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*I have supplied our Yabby the numbers that show one generation ago household savings in Australia were 18%, now they are struggling to hit 2%, it means nothing to Yabby.*

Not so, Sonogloin. For a start it means that as I have been saying,
you are not the best with numbers and are once again jumping to
the wrong conclusions.

You are assuming that people who are better off, will save more.
The evidence does not agree with you.

Some of the highest savings rates are in China, even on their
paltry wages. What the evidence shows is that people who have
known hard times, live more frugaly and will turn over a dollar
a couple of times, before spending it.

As you increase social welfare payments, for health care, unmarried
mothers payments, legal aid, old age, unemployment, disability
payments etc, people worry less about saving for that rainy day
and tend to blow what they earn.

The richest generation in Australia are the baby boomers and
grey nomads, who are the largest share owners (40% of our population
own shares directly), also those with the bank savings. Why?
They grew up in frugal times and learned to be frugal. Not so
with later generations, who were given life on a plate and now
expect life on a plate.

So your statistic is interesting, but meaningless in your
intepretation of it. Today there are far more jobs in Australia
then ever before. All those women working, all extra jobs.

In the 60s wool was king, we did very little mining. Wool collapsed
and Australia needed a new source of income, or become a banana
republic. Mining has saved the county's skin, so the good times
prevail.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 21 November 2010 12:45:00 PM
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What amuses me is how you guys continue to cling to your nostalgic
view of how things used to be. Never mind that the world has
changed. Never mind that Australians today earn more in real terms
then ever before. Never mind that Australians are wealthier today
then ever before. Never mind that Australians today live in the
world's biggest houses, with some of the world's cushiest working
conditions.

Science is correct, human memory is indeed flawed, we tend to
remember the good and forget the bad. Its a human foible, I know.

Yes, Australian manufacturing has dropped from 25% of GDP to 10%.
All Australians benefit as consumers, from better, cheaper,
more value for money products. Consumers finally have choice.

Efficient industries benefit from lower input costs. Globally
efficient industries like agriculture, innovate manufacturing etc,
who were burdend by high input costs, can now thrive globally.

Then we have all those new industries, compared to the 60s.
Massive growth in mining, tourism, education services, financial
services, the internet and all its spin offs, just to name a few.

But no, lets just blame the globalisation boogeyman as a scapegoat,
it will make us feel better, without too much thinking. That
seems to be a human foible too.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 21 November 2010 1:53:55 PM
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Yabby:>> Never mind that Australians today earn more in real terms
then ever before. Never mind that Australians are wealthier today
then ever before. Never mind that Australians today live in the
world's biggest houses, with some of the world's cushiest working
conditions<<

Yes Yabby the average or not so average Aussie is laughing, never been better off, balderdash my myopic spinner. The first set of figures below show that as individuals we have never owed so much to the bloodsucking financiers who's defense you leap to regularly. The second set is especially for the tax payers, it again shows that the taxpayers have never owed as much to overseas bloodsuckers as we do now.

By Nick Gardner
From: The Sunday Telegraph
December 27, 2009
"Reserve Bank figures show mortgage, credit card and personal loan debts now stand at $1.2 trillion, up 71 per cent from just five years ago and equating to $56,000 for every man, woman and child in the country."

"Australia’s foreign debt has grown rapidly. Between 1976 and 2008, the level of gross foreign debt increased from $8 billion to $1 072 billion, or from 9 to 95 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP). Net foreign debt increased from $3 billion to $600 billion or from 4 to 53 per cent of GDP."...7 May 2009 ABS Research Paper no. 30 2008–09.

This will bear no relevance to you Yabby, as you have your own reality.
Posted by sonofgloin, Sunday, 21 November 2010 6:06:01 PM
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Ah Sonofgloin, your lack of talent with numbers continues. I am
not surprised lol.

http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/1352/PDF/04_Household_net_worth.pdf

Scroll down and check what households were worth in 1960 and
now. (or 5 years ago) Its about net wealth.

Here is some more for you from the ABS.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/6554.0Main%20Features22005-06?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=6554.0&issue=2005-06&num=&view=

Check out net wealth per household, after debts are removed.
Note the amount of houses that are mortgage free!

I rest my case.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 21 November 2010 7:14:56 PM
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Yabby, once again your need to be validated see's a flaw in the presentation of the numbers you use to qualify your position.

The first link you posted starts with a quote from the great Frank Herbert, a hell of a science fiction writer and perfect opener for the spin orientated efforts by Anthony Goldbloom and Andrew Craston.

The second link is ABS, but you did not read the qualifying notes:

“BALANCES IN SUPERANUATION FUNDS WERE THE LARGEST ASSETT HELD BY HOUSEHOLDS, AVERAGING $85,000 PER HOUSEHOLD ACROSS ALL HOUSEHOLDS.”

Yabby the super contributions for most employees are employer contributed and overwhelmingly comprise the "wealth" that you imply we all have and is just sitting there for our use at any time. That is the only factor that props up the numbers you trotted out. The majority of us did not have super 40 years ago, so the wealth we had was really ours, the individuals, from our savings not contributions from an employer. We could use it when we wanted unfettered by having to be dying or 65 before we could access it. The super is an aid for the government to cope with the retiring baby boomers and it is dishonest to include it in household assets.

I stand by the household savings figures and the national debt figures I trotted out.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 22 November 2010 8:25:30 AM
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Just a thought, sonofgloin.

Re your quote from the Tele:

"Reserve Bank figures show mortgage, credit card and personal loan debts now stand at $1.2 trillion, up 71 per cent from just five years ago and equating to $56,000 for every man, woman and child in the country."

To me, a population that can run up a debt bill of that size must be extremely well-off indeed.

If you can show me some statistics that show, say, that the default rate on mortgages, credit cards and personal loan debts is significant, then I will start to share your pessimism. Otherwise, it simply shows that we have been living high on the hog for the last five years, confident in the knowledge that we can support this level of debt.

It was, after all, the default rate on those dodgy mortgages in the US that set the whole GFC ball rolling, not the mortgages themselves.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 22 November 2010 9:04:30 AM
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Sonofgloin, I think you will find that the largest asset held
by households are in fact their houses, if you reread the figures.

A mean household net worth of 563'000 $ is not to be sniezed at,
even if a portion of that is in super. It is still there for people
to use in their retirement.

As to the first link from treasury, I really don't care who
treasury officials quote, but table 1 was of interest.

Total household net wealth 1960 46.4 billion
Total household net wealth 2007 5.046 trillion

Those figures kind of speak for themselves and make my point.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 22 November 2010 9:56:13 AM
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Yabby, you're talking, to a great extent, about inflation, not wealth creation.

The Sydney house I bought in 1964 was valued at 5,000 pounds, [$10,000].

Today that same house is valued at $850,000.

The fact that the valuation has gone from 4.5 times average salary then to almost 6 times average salary just means that we have got poorer, as our income will not buy as much housing as it did years ago.

In fact it is worse than that when you consider after tax income. Back then I payed just 7.25% tax on my average salary, where as today it is about 36%.

I wonder why I don't feel any richer than I did back then?
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 22 November 2010 10:37:41 AM
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Hasbeen, your one Sydney swallow, does not make a summer.

Fact is the average Australian house has doubled in size. I'd say
that the insides are a bit flasher too these days.

Yes, in Sydney, especially in sought after locations, houses have
rocketed, but that is where the rich live these days. In the country
you can still buy a house for 200k, if you wish.

The cost of actualy building a house is still pretty cheap. It is
land in highly regarded areas, that has gone through the roof.
The reason is, there are enough rich people to bid up prices!
Those DINKS earn some serious money and often plough it into
housing, as any profits on their own homes, is tax free.

As to income tax, it is only a % of the tax mix. I gather that
anyone who made more then average, paid through the nose, ie 66% tax.

You would have to compare Govt exp. as a % of GDP, perhaps Pericles knows
the figures. Then you have to compare Govt services. Look at the
social welfare that we dish out today, unlike the 60s. Unmarried
mothers pensions, medicare, baby bonuses, the list goes on.

If we compare wages with the consumer price index, real wages have
in fact increased, hours worked have decreased.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 22 November 2010 11:54:58 AM
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(no)Thanx to MP Al Grassby (Deceased) the flood gates to multiculturalism were flung open by the Fabian Socialists Whitless and gang. Whitlam WAS a Fabian Socialist and his running dog Grassby surely did his bidding.

Grassby went to Italy to learn Italian so he could 'help Italian farmers'...hmmmm he already spoke english, what about Aussie farmers?

Some from among those "Italian Farmers" colluded to MURDER a very brave warrior for Aussie culture, life and the rule of law, Donald McKay.

Grassby made all manner of pernicous manouvers (it is alleged) to destroy the McKay name and elevate the 'purity' of his Italian farmer mates, (perhaps they contributed from the proceeds of crime to his election campaigns?) by allegedly asking another MP to read out a paper in parliament suggesting Mckay connections caused his dissappearance. He was charged with Criminal defamation and the case must have been substantial because it took TWELVE YEARS of legal battle to finally be 'declared' not proven, but by this time Whitless probably had enough of 'his' Court appointees in place to ensure such a verdict.

We should have a National while Grassby might have gotten away with his cultural carnage against Australia, he will not get away with it with his Maker.

"Do not fear him who can kill the body but not destroy the soul, but fear him who, after killing the body can cast the soul into hell"Mat 10:28
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 22 November 2010 11:55:25 AM
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As you know, Boaz, I'm no lawyer. But even to my untrained mind you are treading a rather fine line here.

>>Grassby made all manner of pernicous manouvers (it is alleged) to destroy the McKay name and elevate the 'purity' of his Italian farmer mates, (perhaps they contributed from the proceeds of crime to his election campaigns?) by allegedly asking another MP to read out a paper in parliament suggesting Mckay connections caused his dissappearance. He was charged with Criminal defamation and the case must have been substantial because it took TWELVE YEARS of legal battle to finally be 'declared' not proven, but by this time Whitless probably had enough of 'his' Court appointees in place to ensure such a verdict.<<

You hide first of all behind an "alleged" - then proceed to libel "his Italian farmer mates" without such protection. You then cast a slur on him, as well as the entire judicial system, by asserting that the elapsed time confirmed that the case against Grassby "must have been substantial".

Oh dear.

And I hate to tell you this, but Gough Whitlam is still very much alive, so your accusation that he stacked the court in order to quash the accusation is more than a little dangerous, I suspect.

Tut tut.

I hope you have deep pockets. I suspect your lawyer is rubbing his hand with glee, even as I write this...

But at least you are able to let of some steam after that MindBodySpirit thing. It must have been quite an ordeal for you.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 22 November 2010 2:35:34 PM
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Yabby, I had an uncle who bitched about paying 9,000 pounds tax, when my gross was 1,250. He reckoned I was mad when I told him I wished I had payed that much. I would have liked the 7,000 net of course.

I think it is one of our problems now, that out bank general managers, & similar people are not paying similar percentages today.

I do believe that successful senior executives should be well paid, & I believe my uncle was.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 22 November 2010 6:14:42 PM
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ALGOREisRICH:>> Grassby made all manner of pernicous manouvers (it is alleged) to destroy the McKay name and elevate the 'purity' of his Italian farmer mates, (perhaps they contributed from the proceeds of crime to his election campaigns?) by allegedly asking another MP to read out a paper in parliament suggesting Mckay connections caused his dissappearance.<<

Al the mafia was in Leeton and Griffith long before Labor took power and they were "dealing" with the Liberal politicians at federal and state level for the previous 25 odd years. Grassby or no Grassby, Labor or Liberal we would never have got the people who ordered Mackays murder anywhere near a trial.

Consider the corruption in the NSW police force at the time, they could not protect their own whistle blowers, the cops would get the crims to shoot them or intimidate their families. Going to the Commissioner was useless as he was corrupt as were most of the top echelon police officers. The NSW police royal commission saw all the rats leave the ship; they had no senior officers left.

Al it seems that in 86 the top gun found Grassby as sleazy and controlled as he was.

>>In the report of the Nagle special commission of inquiry in 1986, John Nagle, QC, found that Grassby had engaged in a smear campaign to protect the real murderers of Donald Mackay. He wrote that "no decent man" could have propagated "the scurrilous lies" that Grassby distributed about the Mackay family. He described Grassby's performance as a witness as "long-winded, dissembling, and unconvincing, constantly driven to uneasy claims of defective memory".<<

You’re probably on the money with the stacked court of appeal.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 22 November 2010 6:36:24 PM
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